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Foxhound Elite Ancient Exiles 378	Posted - 2013.10.30 21:31:00 - [1] - Quote I like to see people giving out about the upcoming changes to AV. You've had it coming, and stop complaining about how it's going to look about in the future vs. Tanks. I see nobodys saying 'but we won't have any way to fend off stomping dropship pilots' , ... it's because dropship pilots rarely get a chance to make any impact. Why, you say? Because it only takes one swarm launcher, one forge gunner or one rail installation user to remove the threat of even the most skilled of pilots from the battlefield. Stop your whining, you'll have together to take out vehicles, which is what it should be. Vehicle users spend more ISK and SP than you, in an open one vs one battle, they should always crush you. Only where you use your surroundings and fellow teammates to help, then you should overcome the vehicular opposition, unless they fail due to pilot error otherwise. Python pilot, troop-transport specialist and an all-round ballbag.
KING CHECKMATE AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS 2149	Posted - 2013.10.30 21:33:00 - [2] - Quote Foxhound Elite wrote: I like to see people giving out about the upcoming changes to AV. You've had it coming, and stop complaining about how it's going to look about in the future vs. Tanks. I see nobodys saying 'but we won't have any way to fend off stomping dropship pilots' , ... it's because dropship pilots rarely get a chance to make any impact. Why, you say? Because it only takes one swarm launcher, one forge gunner or one rail installation user to remove the threat of even the most skilled of pilots from the battlefield. Stop your whining, you'll have together to take out vehicles, which is what it should be. Vehicle users spend more ISK and SP than you, in an open one vs one battle, they should always crush you. Only where you use your surroundings and fellow teammates to help, then you should overcome the vehicular opposition, unless they fail due to pilot error otherwise. Im not crying, im learning how to drive tanks.... u+Élop s-¦ -Äll+Én-ç+ö+É
Justin Tymes Dem Durrty Boyz Public Disorder. 465	Posted - 2013.10.30 21:35:00 - [3] - Quote Yet another "X SP should mean superiority" thread. Save your SP > skill rant for when 1.7 comes out.
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 586	Posted - 2013.10.30 21:44:00 - [4] - Quote Justin Tymes wrote: Yet another "X SP should mean superiority" thread. Save your SP > skill rant for when 1.7 comes out. Your roll eyes emote and your 1 line dismissive response lies on-top of a confusing point. Your say that SP should not add value, i.e superior abilities or gear. If this is not the function of SP as you say then what do you think skill points should do? What are they for in your version of DUST? Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
CharCharOdell 1402	Posted - 2013.10.30 21:52:00 - [5] - Quote How about this: LIGHT AV weapons should be good at taking out light vehicles, but ineffective at taking out heavy vehicles, while heavy AV kills all vehicles relatively quickly. Doesn't that make sense? Gùñ-é-º+¼+ò+¦GÖÑ+ú+ú+¡ GÖÑ'Ðe+ü+üGùÑ Gùú -ä>-üð+++Ç++§<-¡<-¡ Gùó Speaker of the Mangrove / King of QQ / Co-Founder of the Learning Coalition
KING CHECKMATE AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS 2150	Posted - 2013.10.30 21:52:00 - [6] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Justin Tymes wrote: Yet another "X SP should mean superiority" thread. Save your SP > skill rant for when 1.7 comes out. Your roll eyes emote and your 1 line dismissive response lies on-top of a confusing point. Your say that SP should not add value, i.e superior abilities or gear. If this is not the function of SP as you say then what do you think skill points should do? What are they for in your version of DUST? By your logic, and the OPs, when i have 20 millions SP (in about a week or two) and since i spent almost all of it in AV (Have everything proto) and suits and skills for using it, then, *NO VEHICLE USER UNDER 20mill SP should be able to survive one of my AV attacks?* Seems fun. TY u+Élop s-¦ -Äll+Én-ç+ö+É
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 586	Posted - 2013.10.30 21:58:00 - [7] - Quote King you are straw manning. This is not useful. My question was about added value. Nothing about default domination or inherent superiority. Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
Godin Thekiller Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 1335	Posted - 2013.10.30 21:59:00 - [8] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Justin Tymes wrote: Yet another "X SP should mean superiority" thread. Save your SP > skill rant for when 1.7 comes out. Your roll eyes emote and your 1 line dismissive response lies on-top of a confusing point. Your say that SP should not add value, i.e superior abilities or gear. If this is not the function of SP as you say then what do you think skill points should do? What are they for in your version of DUST? By your logic, and the OPs, when i have 20 millions SP (in about a week or two) and since i spent almost all of it in AV (Have everything proto) and suits and skills for using it, then, *NO VEHICLE USER UNDER 20mill SP should be able to survive one of my AV attacks?* Seems fun. TY It doesn't take 20 mil SP to use AV well. Not even close. 'lights cigar' fuck with me, and I'll melt your face off. Gallente forever!
KING CHECKMATE AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS 2152	Posted - 2013.10.30 22:00:00 - [9] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: King you are straw manning. This is not useful. My question was about added value. Nothing about default domination or inherent superiority. Well sorry about the misunderstanding, too much time dealing with SPR4 has left me this ability to put words in peoples mouth. I apologize. u+Élop s-¦ -Äll+Én-ç+ö+É
KING CHECKMATE AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS 2152	Posted - 2013.10.30 22:00:00 - [10] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: It doesn't take 20 mil SP to use AV well. Not even close. Well of course not, who said that>? not me for sure. But again thats not what we are talking about here godin. :3 u+Élop s-¦ -Äll+Én-ç+ö+É

Paran Tadec Ancient Exiles 1524	Posted - 2013.10.30 22:02:00 - [11] - Quote Foxhound Elite wrote: I like to see people giving out about the upcoming changes to AV. You've had it coming, and stop complaining about how it's going to look about in the future vs. Tanks. I see nobodys saying 'but we won't have any way to fend off stomping dropship pilots' , ... it's because dropship pilots rarely get a chance to make any impact. Why, you say? Because it only takes one swarm launcher, one forge gunner or one rail installation user to remove the threat of even the most skilled of pilots from the battlefield. Stop your whining, you'll have together to take out vehicles, which is what it should be. Vehicle users spend more ISK and SP than you, in an open one vs one battle, they should always crush you. Only where you use your surroundings and fellow teammates to help, then you should overcome the vehicular opposition, unless they fail due to pilot error otherwise. Or you know, buff dropships and give them flares, but thats too simple Bittervet Proficiency V thanks logibro!
True Adamance PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 3802	Posted - 2013.10.30 22:03:00 - [12] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: Foxhound Elite wrote: I like to see people giving out about the upcoming changes to AV. You've had it coming, and stop complaining about how it's going to look about in the future vs. Tanks. I see nobodys saying 'but we won't have any way to fend off stomping dropship pilots' , ... it's because dropship pilots rarely get a chance to make any impact. Why, you say? Because it only takes one swarm launcher, one forge gunner or one rail installation user to remove the threat of even the most skilled of pilots from the battlefield. Stop your whining, you'll have together to take out vehicles, which is what it should be. Vehicle users spend more ISK and SP than you, in an open one vs one battle, they should always crush you. Only where you use your surroundings and fellow teammates to help, then you should overcome the vehicular opposition, unless they fail due to pilot error otherwise. Im not crying, im learning how to drive tanks.... BTW this: '' Vehicle users spend more ISK and SP than you, in an open one vs one battle, they should always crush you. '' Is the most stupid thing i've read. If this game ends up being: Better equipment > Skill IM LEAVING. I dont give a flying f*** if your tank costs 50 million isk, if im better i should be able to drop your butt. PERIOD. @ the end of the day, as you said, is 1 on 1 , you are just wearing a mechanical, more expensive suit.... A 1 on 1 battle that cannot be won no matter what , makes a game broken. Just saying King... 1v1 Tanker vs AV- Tanker spends 10 Mill to get where they are at, AV spends 5 Mill...... 1vs 2 Tanker vs AVers- Tanker spends 10 Mill to get where they are at, AV spend, between them 10 Million. Balance of SP, ISK, and effort is equalised. "All things were created by the Divine, and so the glory of our faith is inherent to us all"
Godin Thekiller Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 1335	Posted - 2013.10.30 22:03:00 - [13] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: It doesn't take 20 mil SP to use AV well. Not even close. Well of course not, who said that>? not me for sure. But again thats not what we are talking about here godin. :3 You said you spent almost all of it into AV, so es you did. 'lights cigar' fuck with me, and I'll melt your face off. Gallente forever!
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 586	Posted - 2013.10.30 22:05:00 - [14] - Quote That's cool. I'm am interested by opinions like the posters where he says "SP should not do this" yet I never hear what they should do. If SP do NOT give a advantage then by reason a duvalle should be exactly like a militia gun and a proto suit like a starter fit. I.e the SP to get them does not give you an advantage. If this were the case, what would be the point? This was my question. Perhaps cosmetics? That post by Justin is quite unclear. Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
KING CHECKMATE AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS 2152	Posted - 2013.10.30 22:09:00 - [15] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Just saying King... 1v1 Tanker vs AV- Tanker spends 10 Mill to get where they are at, AV spends 5 Mill...... 1vs 2 Tanker vs AVers- Tanker spends 10 Mill to get where they are at, AV spend, between them 10 Million. Balance of SP, ISK, and effort is equalised. Ok. 1st the problem is vehicle users think the only thing we have to level up is the weapon its proficiency and thats that. a GOOD AV fitting that is both capable of firing constantly vs vehicles AND does not need team support to survive, has auto repairers that are effective and can ressuply its AV weapon on his own, Plus having enough stamina and speed to reach locations suitable for AV operation does not go below 8 mill. 2nd- AV weapons are to easy to use, this is correct. 3rd- So in good theory,if we INCREASE the SP needed to get to Proto AV and increase the learning curve of AV you would be happy for 1 on 1 vehicle vs tanks? OF COURSE NOT. ..... Tankers have repeatedly expressed their desires of roflstomping infantry without retaliation unless is a full 3-5 AV proto squad.... LOL u+Élop s-¦ -Äll+Én-ç+ö+É
IMPAIRS YOUR ABILITY Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 216	Posted - 2013.10.30 22:09:00 - [16] - Quote Outside of wasteland junk removal I don't know of any AV users, I only know of people trying to survive getting killed by the death machines. Viewing av as your opposition is wrong, instead its your complimentary counter that is equally needed. If not will it play out in the end against you if you have any doubt ask Lurchasauras how badass his missile tank works now. Dust514 a game with vehicles, cool jump on board. DUST514 a game with insufficient counters to vehicles (anyone in closed beta remember missiles didn't matter if they were DS/LAV/HAV it equalled death.) In the end a buff to AV would have actually been a better solution to counter these awesome vehicles. Instead the wave of waaa that vehicles are OP led to inevitable vehicle nerfs that are still continuing and have been going on since August of 2012. If you want strong vehicle you actually should be encouraging strong AV if you want neutered vehicles continue to ***** about AV.
KING CHECKMATE AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS 2155	Posted - 2013.10.30 22:10:00 - [17] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: It doesn't take 20 mil SP to use AV well. Not even close. Well of course not, who said that>? not me for sure. But again thats not what we are talking about here godin. :3 You said you spent almost all of it into AV, so es you did. Its impossible spending 20 mill into AV. Remember ; the only way to harm vehicles is with 4 weapons. Which except plasma cannon i have all proto, and the suits with proto modules,proficiency ,etc... needed to fully run them. u+Élop s-¦ -Äll+Én-ç+ö+É
True Adamance PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 3803	Posted - 2013.10.30 22:14:00 - [18] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: True Adamance wrote: Just saying King... 1v1 Tanker vs AV- Tanker spends 10 Mill to get where they are at, AV spends 5 Mill...... 1vs 2 Tanker vs AVers- Tanker spends 10 Mill to get where they are at, AV spend, between them 10 Million. Balance of SP, ISK, and effort is equalised. Ok. 1st the problem is vehicle users think the only thing we have to level up is the weapon its proficiency and thats that. a GOOD AV fitting that is both capable of firing constantly vs vehicles AND does not need team support to survive (good vs 1 or 2 enemies at the time), has auto repairers that are effective and can ressuply its AV weapon on his own, Plus having enough stamina and speed to reach locations suitable for AV operation does not go below 8 mill. 2nd- AV weapons are to easy to use, this is correct. 3rd- So in good theory,if we INCREASE the SP needed to get to Proto AV and increase the learning curve of AV you would be happy for 1 on 1 vehicle vs tanks? Again you are assuming things about me. I too was an AVer, I know what you have to skill into etc and I still keep coming back to the point that the weapons were too effective at their jobs to be balanced within the game. I have piloted ADS, Aero lends them to me when I'm bored, those things are practically like paper planes, I'm surprised so many people make them work. Tanks are jokes and you know it. LAV's well they were always stupid. OF COURSE NOT. ..... Tankers have repeatedly expressed their desires of roflstomping infantry without retaliation unless is a full 3-5 AV proto squad.... LOL "All things were created by the Divine, and so the glory of our faith is inherent to us all"
KING CHECKMATE AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS 2155	Posted - 2013.10.30 22:20:00 - [19] - Quote @ True Adamance wait wait wait. WHY ARE YOU EVEN ARGUING WITH ME XD we already reached an agreement before: GÖª Tanks are a lot more sturdy but can be disabled. GÖª AV gets WP for pushing back and disabling tanks GÖª 2-3+ AVs are needed to DESTROY A TANK,but not to push it back or disable it. Agreed? nice, now let me argue with people i havnt met before. TY XD u+Élop s-¦ -Äll+Én-ç+ö+É
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 4463	Posted - 2013.10.30 22:21:00 - [20] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Justin Tymes wrote: Yet another "X SP should mean superiority" thread. Save your SP > skill rant for when 1.7 comes out. Your roll eyes emote and your 1 line dismissive response lies on-top of a confusing point. Your say that SP should not add value, i.e superior abilities or gear. If this is not the function of SP as you say then what do you think skill points should do? What are they for in your version of DUST? As I know you're a reasonable man Judge, I would like to add my concerns to this. The idea that SP and ISK confers more than just a straight combat advantage is abhorrent to myself and a number of others - I suspect King Checkmate is objecting less to the idea of vehicles being strong and more to the idea of them being completely dominant simply because the users have spent more ISK and SP. If, say, a forge gun has perfectly positioned itself behind a tank with an excellent aim at the weak point, but it is only a standard forge gun, should it ever be able to take out the tank? There are active modules to account for, of course, but in the average situation should that forge gun be able to take out that tank? The tank user has spent more ISK - perhaps SP too, but that is debatable. I would compare this to a militia assault rifle user successfully flanking a prototype suit and aiming at the head. In that case, the militia gear is perfectly capable of destroying the protosuit. What I would like to see in AV/Vehicle balance is a situation where SP confers an advantage, but where large amounts of spending does not ensure complete dominance over lesser equipment. The situation that is potentially developing (should the forge gun nerf be as severe as the swarm launcher nerf) is that low tier gear is physically incapable of destroying a vehicle at its tier. Again, many would argue that it should take multiple people to destroy vehicles, and that everything should be balanced based on a vehicle's performance in PC against grouped proto AV - but what happens then is that in pubmatches tanks become stomping machines. Of course there's the option of bringing out co-ordinated AV, but how often does that actually happen in a pubmatch? New players join the game only to find themselves repeatedly dominated by tanks. They may well switch to their AV fits - but if the advantage conferred by spending so much isk on the tank is too great, they will be completely unable to do anything against the machine terrorising their team. Certainly that isk should have value - but should it have enough value to create a frustrating experience for all the other players? Rather than see vehicles in an expensive but dominant position like this, would it not be better to, say, reduce the price of vehicles instead? Level 4 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution

Godin Thekiller Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 1338	Posted - 2013.10.30 22:21:00 - [21] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: True Adamance wrote: Just saying King... 1v1 Tanker vs AV- Tanker spends 10 Mill to get where they are at, AV spends 5 Mill...... 1vs 2 Tanker vs AVers- Tanker spends 10 Mill to get where they are at, AV spend, between them 10 Million. Balance of SP, ISK, and effort is equalised. Ok. 1st the problem is vehicle users think the only thing we have to level up is the weapon its proficiency and thats that. a GOOD AV fitting that is both capable of firing constantly vs vehicles AND does not need team support to survive (good vs 1 or 2 enemies at the time), has auto repairers that are effective and can ressuply its AV weapon on his own, Plus having enough stamina and speed to reach locations suitable for AV operation does not go below 8 mill. 2nd- AV weapons are to easy to use, this is correct. 3rd- So in good theory,if we INCREASE the SP needed to get to Proto AV and increase the learning curve of AV you would be happy for 1 on 1 vehicle vs AV? Pertty sure I've see mostly asking for 2-3 people using teamwork and ADV-PROTO to take out The best pilots in the game during about a 15-20 second period, and if the pilot escapes (AV'ers didn't tackle the HAV, yes we still need EWAR to do tackling, but still), it's all good, as the AV'ers should be rewarded for damaging the vehicle. OF COURSE NOT. ..... Tankers (not YOU adamance ,you still have some sense in you...but overall)have repeatedly expressed their desires of roflstomping infantry without retaliation unless is a full 3-5 AV proto squad.... LOL 'lights cigar' fuck with me, and I'll melt your face off. Gallente forever!
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 4463	Posted - 2013.10.30 22:23:00 - [22] - Quote True Adamance wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: Foxhound Elite wrote: I like to see people giving out about the upcoming changes to AV. You've had it coming, and stop complaining about how it's going to look about in the future vs. Tanks. I see nobodys saying 'but we won't have any way to fend off stomping dropship pilots' , ... it's because dropship pilots rarely get a chance to make any impact. Why, you say? Because it only takes one swarm launcher, one forge gunner or one rail installation user to remove the threat of even the most skilled of pilots from the battlefield. Stop your whining, you'll have together to take out vehicles, which is what it should be. Vehicle users spend more ISK and SP than you, in an open one vs one battle, they should always crush you. Only where you use your surroundings and fellow teammates to help, then you should overcome the vehicular opposition, unless they fail due to pilot error otherwise. Im not crying, im learning how to drive tanks.... BTW this: '' Vehicle users spend more ISK and SP than you, in an open one vs one battle, they should always crush you. '' Is the most stupid thing i've read. If this game ends up being: Better equipment > Skill IM LEAVING. I dont give a flying f*** if your tank costs 50 million isk, if im better i should be able to drop your butt. PERIOD. @ the end of the day, as you said, is 1 on 1 , you are just wearing a mechanical, more expensive suit.... A 1 on 1 battle that cannot be won no matter what , makes a game broken. Just saying King... 1v1 Tanker vs AV- Tanker spends 10 Mill to get where they are at, AV spends 5 Mill...... 1vs 2 Tanker vs AVers- Tanker spends 10 Mill to get where they are at, AV spend, between them 10 Million. Balance of SP, ISK, and effort is equalised. Manpower and versatility is a significant factor as well. An HAV can kill AV, infantry, and other vehicles. An AV user can only really effectively kill vehicles, forge gun sniping aside. Additionally, if it takes two AV players to take out one person in a tank, then that takes two players off the field who are dedicated to taking out that tank while it only takes off one person from the other team, who can do a lot more than that. Level 4 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution
Void Echo Blades of Dust 2005	Posted - 2013.10.30 22:25:00 - [23] - Quote ....hehehe.... that is all. Gallente Pure Blood Level 2 Forum Warrior "In my experience love doesnt exist, only cold, dark betrayal does."
Meeko Fent expert intervention Caldari State 1345	Posted - 2013.10.30 22:25:00 - [24] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: Foxhound Elite wrote: I like to see people giving out about the upcoming changes to AV. You've had it coming, and stop complaining about how it's going to look about in the future vs. Tanks. I see nobodys saying 'but we won't have any way to fend off stomping dropship pilots' , ... it's because dropship pilots rarely get a chance to make any impact. Why, you say? Because it only takes one swarm launcher, one forge gunner or one rail installation user to remove the threat of even the most skilled of pilots from the battlefield. Stop your whining, you'll have together to take out vehicles, which is what it should be. Vehicle users spend more ISK and SP than you, in an open one vs one battle, they should always crush you. Only where you use your surroundings and fellow teammates to help, then you should overcome the vehicular opposition, unless they fail due to pilot error otherwise. Im not crying, im learning how to drive tanks.... BTW this: '' Vehicle users spend more ISK and SP than you, in an open one vs one battle, they should always crush you. '' Is the most stupid thing i've read. If this game ends up being: Better equipment > Skill IM LEAVING. I dont give a flying f*** if your tank costs 50 million isk, if im better i should be able to drop your butt. PERIOD. @ the end of the day, as you said, is 1 on 1 , you are just wearing a mechanical, more expensive suit.... A 1 on 1 battle that cannot be won no matter what , makes a game broken. Perfect logic Checkmate. "I played 6 matches to earn enough to buy my tank! Yay!" Goes into match "Let's bring out that tank! Whoop some ass!" Dies to AR with Lai Dai Grenades Balanced, right? You choose to use 1 million SP for a weapon to fend off vehicles. Tanker alt choose to put 10 million to decently fit a HAV. You win because you can pop in an out of cover faster then my HAV can turn. Balanced, right? Meeko's Novelty Shop Opening Soon! We (will)sell all the novelty items you desire! Really! King of Uncertainty.
True Adamance PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 3804	Posted - 2013.10.30 22:26:00 - [25] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: @ True Adamance wait wait wait. WHY ARE YOU EVEN ARGUING WITH ME XD we already reached an agreement before: GÖª Tanks are a lot more sturdy but can be disabled. GÖª AV gets WP for pushing back and disabling tanks GÖª 2-3+ AVs are needed to DESTROY A TANK,but not to push it back or disable it. Agreed? nice, now let me argue with people i havnt met before. TY XD Lol yeah we did. Just seems like and overly cyclic argument than both sides continually argue, agree, then do it all over again. Basically at its core Tankers -Want to be useful, only good ones are in this game right now, the weak are shafted by potent AV. AV -want to prevent themselves being stomped by tanks, a job that by all accounts, even AVer, is very very easy. "All things were created by the Divine, and so the glory of our faith is inherent to us all"
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 586	Posted - 2013.10.30 22:27:00 - [26] - Quote I was not advocating one position or the other. I wanted to know if Justin, who thinks SP should not give an advantage, would see the purpose and function of skill points. If skill points do givr and advantage, the determination of the size of this advantage is the balance. If they give no advantage what then? Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
Void Echo Blades of Dust 2005	Posted - 2013.10.30 22:28:00 - [27] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: I was not advocating one position or the other. I wanted to know if Justin, who thinks SP should not give an advantage, would see the purpose and function of skill points. If skill points do givr and advantage, the determination of the size of this advantage is the balance. If they give no advantage what then? call of duty logic, don't question it or you will be flamed Gallente Pure Blood Level 2 Forum Warrior "In my experience love doesnt exist, only cold, dark betrayal does."
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 4463	Posted - 2013.10.30 22:29:00 - [28] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: I was not advocating one position or the other. I wanted to know if Justin, who thinks SP should not give an advantage, would see the purpose and function of skill points. If skill points do givr and advantage, the determination of the size of this advantage is the balance. If they give no advantage what then? This is the crucial point - how much of an advantage does that SP and ISK give? It certainly should give an advantage. It shouldn't be too little, otherwise it would be pointless to spend that SP and ISK. But it shouldn't be too great either, or people would simply invest that ISK/SP and stomp everything. Level 4 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution
True Adamance PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 3804	Posted - 2013.10.30 22:34:00 - [29] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: I was not advocating one position or the other. I wanted to know if Justin, who thinks SP should not give an advantage, would see the purpose and function of skill points. If skill points do givr and advantage, the determination of the size of this advantage is the balance. If they give no advantage what then? This is the crucial point - how much of an advantage does that SP and ISK give? It certainly should give an advantage. It shouldn't be too little, otherwise it would be pointless to spend that SP and ISK. But it shouldn't be too great either, or people would simply invest that ISK/SP and stomp everything. You fly EVE side though Arkena you know how much SP and ISK give in terms of advantages. Why should Dust be any different? Admittedly this is a new format for a competitive FPS.... which without SP does not feel all that competitive. "All things were created by the Divine, and so the glory of our faith is inherent to us all"
KING CHECKMATE AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS 2156	Posted - 2013.10.30 22:35:00 - [30] - Quote Void Echo wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: I was not advocating one position or the other. I wanted to know if Justin, who thinks SP should not give an advantage, would see the purpose and function of skill points. If skill points do givr and advantage, the determination of the size of this advantage is the balance. If they give no advantage what then? call of duty logic, don't question it or you will be flamed Oh great. Void is here. Abandon thread, useless posts incoming.... @Godin: Yeah i know what you are saying and i agree with you, bu i use Lai dai Grenades, Wyrikomi Swarms launchers and Ishikune/Kaalakiota Forge guns, sometimes (depending on the map) I canot effectivley destroy a tank,because he was very fast or the map helped him with cover, so he can attack ,leave,repair,rinse and repeat, and i can spend a whole match just damaging him and at the end of the match i'll get mayed 0 WP for spending all match pushing him back AND if a change my suit,the tank will come and ravage my team ,because exagerations appart, MLT/STD weaponry is crap vs good tanks... Now do i solo tanks? Sure, any epxerienced AV can solo tanks. with the right positioning and SOME form of backup its doable. For tankers to tell me i shouldnt be able to SOLO MLT tanks with my 180k Proto AV dropsuit is just madness.... u+Élop s-¦ -Äll+Én-ç+ö+É

Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 555	Posted - 2013.10.30 22:36:00 - [31] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: I was not advocating one position or the other. I wanted to know what Justin, who thinks SP should not give an advantage, would see as the purpose and function of skill points. If skill points do give and advantage, the determination of the size of this advantage is the balance. If they give no advantage what then? He didn't say it shouldn't give an advantage ... he said it shouldn't give superiority or be greater than skill ... try reading properly.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 4463	Posted - 2013.10.30 22:38:00 - [32] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: I was not advocating one position or the other. I wanted to know if Justin, who thinks SP should not give an advantage, would see the purpose and function of skill points. If skill points do givr and advantage, the determination of the size of this advantage is the balance. If they give no advantage what then? This is the crucial point - how much of an advantage does that SP and ISK give? It certainly should give an advantage. It shouldn't be too little, otherwise it would be pointless to spend that SP and ISK. But it shouldn't be too great either, or people would simply invest that ISK/SP and stomp everything. You fly EVE side though Arkena you know how much SP and ISK give in terms of advantages. Why should Dust be any different? Admittedly this is a new format for a competitive FPS.... which without SP does not feel all that competitive. Oh yes, it certainly does give an advantage. But it is still entirely possible to destroy superior ships without superior numbers if you fit accordingly and use the appropriate tactics. If I see an Enyo on field and I only have tech I frigates available, I use a suitable frigate to counter it. If done correctly, the Enyo will die. It will have had an advantage from the ISK and SP invested in it, yes. But when it is outplayed then it dies regardless. The point here is that superior numbers and superior equipment should not be the only solutions to the problem. Better tactics should work. Level 4 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution
IMPAIRS YOUR ABILITY Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 220	Posted - 2013.10.30 22:39:00 - [33] - Quote Also to beat this horse some more, since no one listened in closed beta. Swarm = forget and fire scrub weapon that would be frustrating to know end as a vehicle driver. (9/10 times this same person uses the AR hmmm) Forge = have to aim with direct sight, has enough drawbacks that the vehicle driver can counter (can't tell you how many mexican standoffs i've had with a vehicle trying to line up that final shot and getting evaporated by a rail tank, that is how its supposed to work and is actually fun) Back in june of 2012 the nerfs on the HMG started, I predicted that you will lose your Heavy's and in the end lose the best and fairest (yes even fair to the pilot/driver) AV. Segue to the end of 2013 HMG heavy's are like unicorns and instead the FG is used on infantry, vehicle drivers get nothing but swarm spam and can't move. You got what you asked for when every scrub complained they couldn't toe to toe with an HMG and their AR. The specialist moved on and you're stuck with this. You cannot entertain the discussion of vehicles and AV without talking about the HEAVY and its purpose, you dicked with the HMG and tied the Heavy specialist hand behind there back to point they gave up please continue this trend its really working out well for everyone. In the end I see everyone running around with Medium frame suits and AR/Swarm regardless if they are behind the wheel or on the ground the TTK in either situation will be .02 seconds and this game dies like a fart in a hurricane.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 4463	Posted - 2013.10.30 22:40:00 - [34] - Quote Needless Sacermendor wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: I was not advocating one position or the other. I wanted to know what Justin, who thinks SP should not give an advantage, would see as the purpose and function of skill points. If skill points do give and advantage, the determination of the size of this advantage is the balance. If they give no advantage what then? He didn't say it shouldn't give an advantage ... he said it shouldn't give superiority or be greater than skill ... try reading properly. Let's not begin accusing each other of not reading properly - simply correct them and move on. Whilst I'm guilty of doing that myself at times, we have an opportunity here to have a reasonable discussion. I see some fairly reasonable people from both sides of the debate here. Level 4 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution
Mobius Wyvern Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 3768	Posted - 2013.10.30 22:41:00 - [35] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Justin Tymes wrote: Yet another "X SP should mean superiority" thread. Save your SP > skill rant for when 1.7 comes out. Your roll eyes emote and your 1 line dismissive response lies on-top of a confusing point. Your say that SP should not add value, i.e superior abilities or gear. If this is not the function of SP as you say then what do you think skill points should do? What are they for in your version of DUST? They're for bolstering his arguments and using as a point to try and dethrone the arguments of everyone else. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
KING CHECKMATE AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS 2160	Posted - 2013.10.30 22:43:00 - [36] - Quote IMPAIRS YOUR ABILITY wrote: Also to beat this horse some more, since no one listened in closed beta. Swarm = forget and fire scrub weapon that would be frustrating to know end as a vehicle driver. (9/10 times this same person uses the AR hmmm) Forge = have to aim with direct sight, has enough drawbacks that the vehicle driver can counter (can't tell you how many mexican standoffs i've had with a vehicle trying to line up that final shot and getting evaporated by a rail tank, that is how its supposed to work and is actually fun) Back in june of 2012 the nerfs on the HMG started, I predicted that you will lose your Heavy's and in the end lose the best and fairest (yes even fair to the pilot/driver) AV. Segue to the end of 2013 HMG heavy's are like unicorns and instead the FG is used on infantry, vehicle drivers get nothing but swarm spam and can't move. You got what you asked for when every scrub complained they couldn't toe to toe with an HMG and their AR. The specialist moved on and you're stuck with this. You cannot entertain the discussion of vehicles and AV without talking about the HEAVY and its purpose, you dicked with the HMG and tied the Heavy specialist hand behind there back to point they gave up please continue this trend its really working out well for everyone. In the end I see everyone running around with Medium frame suits and AR/Swarm regardless if they are behind the wheel or on the ground the TTK in either situation will be .02 seconds and this game dies like a fart in a hurricane. Ehem, Swarms are Good vs Vehicles and a ''scrub'' weapon , fire and forget for the SAME REASON AV nades are powerful. They only hurt vehicles... While you are taking an Objective, getting surrounded by enemy reds...the Swarm launcher WILL NOT be of any use.... Of course is going to be powerful, is an ANTI VEHICLES ONLY WEAPON...and you want it to be bad at what it does? Well congrats, range and damage nerfs incoming..... heh.. u+Élop s-¦ -Äll+Én-ç+ö+É
Cosgar ParagonX 6872	Posted - 2013.10.30 22:44:00 - [37] - Quote Honestly, both sides need to relax. CCP is rescaling everything while limiting the how dominant both sides are going to be by making it harder for each side to kill each other and making vehicles more accessible to new players. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 586	Posted - 2013.10.30 22:45:00 - [38] - Quote Lets take a hypothetical : A tank and a Swarm launcher face each other in a field. What determines who wins? Is it fair that the one with more SP and ISK investment has a higher chance when skill is not considered to win? If not then what incentive do people have to earn SP and spend ISK? Does it feel fun, and fair that 120k can kill 2.5 million ISK as easily as 2.5 can kill 120k? Is it fun to know you cannot even dent 2.5million with 120k? Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
Void Echo Blades of Dust 2006	Posted - 2013.10.30 22:45:00 - [39] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: Void Echo wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: I was not advocating one position or the other. I wanted to know if Justin, who thinks SP should not give an advantage, would see the purpose and function of skill points. If skill points do givr and advantage, the determination of the size of this advantage is the balance. If they give no advantage what then? call of duty logic, don't question it or you will be flamed Oh great. Void is here. Abandon thread, useless posts incoming.... @Godin: Yeah i know what you are saying and i agree with you, bu i use Lai dai Grenades, Wyrikomi Swarms launchers and Ishikune/Kaalakiota Forge guns, sometimes (depending on the map) I canot effectivley destroy a tank,because he was very fast or the map helped him with cover, so he can attack ,leave,repair,rinse and repeat, and i can spend a whole match just damaging him and at the end of the match i'll get mayed 0 WP for spending all match pushing him back AND if a change my suit,the tank will come and ravage my team ,because exagerations appart, MLT/STD weaponry is crap vs good tanks... Now do i solo tanks? Sure, any epxerienced AV can solo tanks. with the right positioning and SOME form of backup its doable. For tankers to tell me i shouldnt be able to SOLO MLT tanks with my 180k Proto AV dropsuit is just madness.... im here for sight seeing.. im done trying to fix the non-existing balance. Closed Beta Vet Level 2 Forum Warrior "In my experience love doesnt exist, only cold, dark betrayal does."
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 4464	Posted - 2013.10.30 22:49:00 - [40] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Lets take a hypothetical : A tank and a Swarm launcher face each other in a field. What determines who wins? Is it fair that the one with more SP and ISK investment has a higher chance when skill is not considered to win? If not then what incentive do people have to earn SP and spend ISK? Does it feel fun, and fair that 120k can kill 2.5 million ISK as easily as 2.5 can kill 120k? Is it fun to know you cannot even dent 2.5million with 120k? Where skill is not a factor, the one with the higher ISK and SP investment should win. However, skill should be a factor. As for your two questions: 1. No. 2. No. What are your thoughts on reducing the price gap? That way vehicles aren't massively frustrating to lose or to face. Level 4 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution

Meeko Fent expert intervention Caldari State 1345	Posted - 2013.10.30 22:49:00 - [41] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: Void Echo wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: I was not advocating one position or the other. I wanted to know if Justin, who thinks SP should not give an advantage, would see the purpose and function of skill points. If skill points do givr and advantage, the determination of the size of this advantage is the balance. If they give no advantage what then? call of duty logic, don't question it or you will be flamed Oh great. Void is here. Abandon thread, useless posts incoming.... @Godin: Yeah i know what you are saying and i agree with you, bu i use Lai dai Grenades, Wyrikomi Swarms launchers and Ishikune/Kaalakiota Forge guns, sometimes (depending on the map) I canot effectivley destroy a tank,because he was very fast or the map helped him with cover, so he can attack ,leave,repair,rinse and repeat, and i can spend a whole match just damaging him and at the end of the match i'll get mayed 0 WP for spending all match pushing him back AND if a change my suit,the tank will come and ravage my team ,because exagerations appart, MLT/STD weaponry is crap vs good tanks... Now do i solo tanks? Sure, any epxerienced AV can solo tanks. with the right positioning and SOME form of backup its doable. For tankers to tell me i shouldnt be able to SOLO MLT tanks with my 180k Proto AV dropsuit is just madness.... Decently fit militia HAV- 398k AV Proto Fit- 180k With two militia launchers you can STILL kill tanks in one clip. Actually, you can kill them easier now that the reps are passive. No more turning around a corner and going to full, so damage stick better. Shields still have passive reps, but by the time those start, hopefully you aren't that bad and managed to drop the shields in 6 seconds, especially considering that even militia swarms deal 880 damage a volley. You seem to forget the vehicles are getting completely reworked too. Meeko's Novelty Shop Opening Soon! We (will)sell all the novelty items you desire! Really! King of Uncertainty.
Gelan Corbaine Sebiestor Field Sappers Minmatar Republic 213	Posted - 2013.10.30 22:49:00 - [42] - Quote True Adamance wrote: 1v1 Tanker vs AV- Tanker spends 10 Mill to get where they are at, AV spends 5 Mill...... 1vs 2 Tanker vs AVers- Tanker spends 10 Mill to get where they are at, AV spend, between them 10 Million. Balance of SP, ISK, and effort is equalised. Two AVer's tend to die more ..... is inefficient against AI troops where TANK >> everything even AV in a straight slugfest, Also while more tanks is a force multiplier more AV is a detriment to the team and each other as the more AV you have the less chance you have to being paid because only the killshot gets the credit and thus the cash . The others get zip and are more likely to end the game in the red . Dedicated AV that cant solo becomes a completely unsustainable job under the current game mechanics . Playing Russian Roulette with the cash should not be a part of any job in this game . We're mercs you cant expect people to work for free.
Void Echo Blades of Dust 2006	Posted - 2013.10.30 22:50:00 - [43] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Lets take a hypothetical : A tank and a Swarm launcher face each other in a field. What determines who wins? Is it fair that the one with more SP and ISK investment has a higher chance when skill is not considered to win? If not then what incentive do people have to earn SP and spend ISK? Does it feel fun, and fair that 120k can kill 2.5 million ISK as easily as 2.5 can kill 120k? Is it fun to know you cannot even dent 2.5million with 120k? Where skill is not a factor, the one with the higher ISK and SP investment should win. However, skill should be a factor. As for your two questions: 1. No. 2. No. What are your thoughts on reducing the price gap? That way vehicles aren't massively frustrating to lose or to face. then again, should skill increase the odds of the investment anyway? if no then why bother trying to skill into gallente proto assault when militia minmitar will be more powerful? Closed Beta Vet Level 2 Forum Warrior "In my experience love doesnt exist, only cold, dark betrayal does."
Justin Tymes Dem Durrty Boyz Public Disorder. 470	Posted - 2013.10.30 22:51:00 - [44] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: I was not advocating one position or the other. I wanted to know what Justin, who thinks SP should not give an advantage, would see as the purpose and function of skill points. If skill points do give and advantage, the determination of the size of this advantage is the balance. If they give no advantage what then? It should give an advantage but that advantage must be relative with everything else in the game. I have about 15mill invested into making a complete Gallente Logistics suit right now. I should always be able to be solo'd, because that's the way Dust works. Tanks already have an advantage to being immune to most weapons, and have the ability to kill anything in seconds, if that. Which is fine but AV has to be your counter. 1 man should be able to solo another man regardless of the SP wall. 1 man should not be bending numerical advantage to his will, simply because he decided to bring a well-fit tank in play, that completely goes against skill.
KING CHECKMATE AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS 2165	Posted - 2013.10.30 22:51:00 - [45] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Honestly, both sides need to relax. CCP is rescaling everything while limiting the how dominant both sides are going to be by making it harder for each side to kill each other and making vehicles more accessible to new players. Oh dont worry. Im already chilled and i will accept whatever fate CCP has for me. I just like beating this dead horse because of its entretaining value...and i m at work bored so... u+Élop s-¦ -Äll+Én-ç+ö+É
True Adamance PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 3810	Posted - 2013.10.30 22:55:00 - [46] - Quote Justin Tymes wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: I was not advocating one position or the other. I wanted to know what Justin, who thinks SP should not give an advantage, would see as the purpose and function of skill points. If skill points do give and advantage, the determination of the size of this advantage is the balance. If they give no advantage what then? It should give an advantage but that advantage must be relative with everything else in the game. I have about 15mill invested into making a complete Gallente Logistics suit right now. I should always be able to be solo'd, because that's the way Dust works. Tanks already have an advantage to being immune to most weapons, and have the ability to kill anything in seconds, if that. Which is fine but AV has to be your counter. 1 man should be able to solo another man regardless of the SP wall. 1 man should not be bending numerical advantage to his will, simply because he decided to bring a well-fit tank in play, that completely goes against skill. Okay solo fine but your talking about a frigate trying to destroy a battle cruiser here. Its not that ******* easy. "All things were created by the Divine, and so the glory of our faith is inherent to us all"
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 4464	Posted - 2013.10.30 22:56:00 - [47] - Quote Void Echo wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Lets take a hypothetical : A tank and a Swarm launcher face each other in a field. What determines who wins? Is it fair that the one with more SP and ISK investment has a higher chance when skill is not considered to win? If not then what incentive do people have to earn SP and spend ISK? Does it feel fun, and fair that 120k can kill 2.5 million ISK as easily as 2.5 can kill 120k? Is it fun to know you cannot even dent 2.5million with 120k? Where skill is not a factor, the one with the higher ISK and SP investment should win. However, skill should be a factor. As for your two questions: 1. No. 2. No. What are your thoughts on reducing the price gap? That way vehicles aren't massively frustrating to lose or to face. then again, should skill increase the odds of the investment anyway? if no then why bother trying to skill into gallente proto assault when militia minmitar will be more powerful? I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say here. Do you mean that SP has an effect on the effectiveness of your isk investment or actual player skill? For both, certainly. SP should have an effect - why bother having it otherwise? Player skill should also have an effect. I suspect the apparent lack of skill in using swarms is partly causing much of your frustration. A homing, fire and forget weapon takes a lot of player skill out of the equation. It reduces AV/Vehicle balance when comparing with swarm launchers almost to raw numbers. Would you be happier with swarms, if, completely hypothetically, they were dumbfire? That's just an example and not a serious suggestion, as there are a host of problems with that in the current state of things, but would you be happier with them if they required more skill to apply their full damage but if they managed to do that did notable damage? Level 4 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution
Pocket Rocket Girl Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 72	Posted - 2013.10.30 22:57:00 - [48] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Justin Tymes wrote: Yet another "X SP should mean superiority" thread. Save your SP > skill rant for when 1.7 comes out. Your roll eyes emote and your 1 line dismissive response lies on-top of a confusing point. Your say that SP should not add value, i.e superior abilities or gear. If this is not the function of SP as you say then what do you think skill points should do? What are they for in your version of DUST? improving your chances of survival on the field. just because i use starter suit and come across the a xk0 with a duvolle yes theXk0 has a greater chance of winning but if the Xk0 player has no skill guess what? my chances have gone way up of wining the 1v1
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 555	Posted - 2013.10.30 22:57:00 - [49] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Lets take a hypothetical : A tank and a Swarm launcher face each other in a field. What determines who wins? Is it fair that the one with more SP and ISK investment has a higher chance when skill is not considered to win? If not then what incentive do people have to earn SP and spend ISK? Does it feel fun, and fair that 120k can kill 2.5 million ISK as easily as 2.5 can kill 120k? Is it fun to know you cannot even dent 2.5million with 120k? Your hypothetical is dumb ... you can't not consider skill ... a HAV and a Swarm user face each other in a field, even if the swarm is on a proto Heavy suit stacked with as much ehp as possible and the HAV is a militia hull with a militia turret it will be dead before the first volley of swarms leaves the launcher, whether the HAV is fitted with blasters, missiles or rails (maybe not missiles these days). IF you people had your way (which is what we seem to be aiming towards) the ONLY incentive to earn SP and ISK would be to invest in HAVs so you could be competitive.
Void Echo Blades of Dust 2006	Posted - 2013.10.30 22:59:00 - [50] - Quote Justin Tymes wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: I was not advocating one position or the other. I wanted to know what Justin, who thinks SP should not give an advantage, would see as the purpose and function of skill points. If skill points do give and advantage, the determination of the size of this advantage is the balance. If they give no advantage what then? It should give an advantage but that advantage must be relative with everything else in the game. I have about 15mill invested into making a complete Gallente Logistics suit right now. I should always be able to be solo'd, because that's the way Dust works. Tanks already have an advantage to being immune to most weapons, and have the ability to kill anything in seconds, if that. Which is fine but AV has to be your counter. 1 man should be able to solo another man regardless of the SP wall. 1 man should not be bending numerical advantage to his will, simply because he decided to bring a well-fit tank in play, that completely goes against skill. then that means that I wasted over 10 million SP to go into tanks when heavies are the better way to go since they are actually balanced versus other things. and by your logic, dust 514 should not exist because it puts personal investment on the same level as personal skill and you people don't like that. its completely fine for a single man to mow down an entire team inside a human sized heavy dropsuit because well... hes a heavy dropstuit with more hp than you all and he has a more powerful gun. but its wrong for a person to win against an entire team using a 50 ton vehicle sized weapon with a vehicle sized turret mounted on it because by your logic, his sp and isk investment is far greater than yours so he should be punished for being more into it than you are. Closed Beta Vet Level 2 Forum Warrior "In my experience love doesnt exist, only cold, dark betrayal does."

Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 4465	Posted - 2013.10.30 22:59:00 - [51] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Justin Tymes wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: I was not advocating one position or the other. I wanted to know what Justin, who thinks SP should not give an advantage, would see as the purpose and function of skill points. If skill points do give and advantage, the determination of the size of this advantage is the balance. If they give no advantage what then? It should give an advantage but that advantage must be relative with everything else in the game. I have about 15mill invested into making a complete Gallente Logistics suit right now. I should always be able to be solo'd, because that's the way Dust works. Tanks already have an advantage to being immune to most weapons, and have the ability to kill anything in seconds, if that. Which is fine but AV has to be your counter. 1 man should be able to solo another man regardless of the SP wall. 1 man should not be bending numerical advantage to his will, simply because he decided to bring a well-fit tank in play, that completely goes against skill. Okay solo fine but your talking about a frigate trying to destroy a battle cruiser here. Its not that ******* easy. Taking out a battlecruiser with a frigate is perfectly doable provided you do things correctly. Of course the battlecruiser has an advantage for the greater investment, but if it is outplayed by the frigate it may still die. This is a fairly good analogy, actually. Ideally here we should also have a situation where skill and tactics have a significant effect on the outcome and if done incorrectly the 'frigate' should be easily destroyed and the 'battlecruiser' should laugh off the damage. Level 4 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 586	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:02:00 - [52] - Quote By "you people" do you mean someone asking a simple question in a neutral way? You answered, aggressively, but there is an answer in there. Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 4465	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:03:00 - [53] - Quote Needless Sacermendor wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Lets take a hypothetical : A tank and a Swarm launcher face each other in a field. What determines who wins? Is it fair that the one with more SP and ISK investment has a higher chance when skill is not considered to win? If not then what incentive do people have to earn SP and spend ISK? Does it feel fun, and fair that 120k can kill 2.5 million ISK as easily as 2.5 can kill 120k? Is it fun to know you cannot even dent 2.5million with 120k? Your hypothetical is dumb ... you can't not consider skill ... a HAV and a Swarm user face each other in a field, even if the swarm is on a proto Heavy suit stacked with as much ehp as possible and the HAV is a militia hull with a militia turret it will be dead before the first volley of swarms leaves the launcher, whether the HAV is fitted with blasters, missiles or rails (maybe not missiles these days). IF you people had your way (which is what we seem to be aiming towards) the ONLY incentive to earn SP and ISK would be to invest in HAVs so you could be competitive. I completely understand your concern that HAVs might become completely dominant. However, ISK and SP should confer some advantage. Not overwhelmingly so - but some, enough to be overcome by skill. In this case, where skill is removed from the equation and it can be assumed to be equal, the greater investment wins. That is only natural. That's what Judge is trying to say - however, I personally believe that skill should have a significant input on the situation and I suspect Judge does as well. All other things equal however, and the greater investment should win. Level 4 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 4465	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:04:00 - [54] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: By "you people" do you mean someone asking a simple question in a neutral way? You answered, aggressively, but there is an answer in there. Unfortunately this is really a product of the excessive vitriol found in AV/Vehicle threads - it tends to come from both sides and has lead to an 'us and them' mentality. Level 4 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution
Pent'noir Algintal Core Gallente Federation 169	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:07:00 - [55] - Quote Since the topic of isk has come up, I am a bit peeved that I seem to not get the largest chunk of isk for killing tanks. It is heavily split with wp and if I spent the entire match hunting vehicles, then I'm probably not getting that much wp. Same goes for the tanks killing me, i'd expect them to get the largest chunk of isk from my value. A recent match that played, I joined half way through, killed the 3 tanks destroying my team and only got 100k isk for my trouble (well it was actually pretty fun). I'd like a bigger cut of what I personally kill. I know many roles/situations have the same problem, but it would probably make av happier to keep a tank a bay for the match because they could get a chance at killing it for a large isk cut of its value.
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 555	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:08:00 - [56] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: And he did say that. If a thing is not superior, then it has no properties that are greater than; then this means it is equal. A single property that is greater/superior would mean the whole is greater if no other properties are changed. Wrong ... you're definition is of something that is better ... something that is superior has every property better and is in another league and cannot be beaten by. A proto dropsuit with complex extenders n plates n proto weapons is not superior to a militia fitting ... because a militia fitting is capable of killing proto fittings. SP and ISK do not make you superior or replace skill ... what it does do is give you an advantage ... you can extend that advantage over all aspects of your fitting, but it will NEVER make you superior as skill can still defeat you.
Void Echo Blades of Dust 2006	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:12:00 - [57] - Quote Needless Sacermendor wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: And he did say that. If a thing is not superior, then it has no properties that are greater than; then this means it is equal. A single property that is greater/superior would mean the whole is greater if no other properties are changed. Wrong ... you're definition is of something that is better ... something that is superior has every property better and is in another league and cannot be beaten by. A proto dropsuit with complex extenders n plates n proto weapons is not superior to a militia fitting ... because a militia fitting is capable of killing proto fittings. SP and ISK do not make you superior or replace skill ... what it does do is give you an advantage ... you can extend that advantage over all aspects of your fitting, but it will NEVER make you superior as skill can still defeat you. its a giant contradiction then, theres no way this would work in real life. Closed Beta Vet Level 2 Forum Warrior "In my experience love doesnt exist, only cold, dark betrayal does."
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1159	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:13:00 - [58] - Quote Foxhound Elite wrote: I like to see people giving out about the upcoming changes to AV. You've had it coming, and stop complaining about how it's going to look about in the future vs. Tanks. I see nobodys saying 'but we won't have any way to fend off stomping dropship pilots' , ... it's because dropship pilots rarely get a chance to make any impact. Why, you say? Because it only takes one swarm launcher, one forge gunner or one rail installation user to remove the threat of even the most skilled of pilots from the battlefield. Stop your whining, you'll have together to take out vehicles, which is what it should be. Vehicle users spend more ISK and SP than you, in an open one vs one battle, they should always crush you. Only where you use your surroundings and fellow teammates to help, then you should overcome the vehicular opposition, unless they fail due to pilot error otherwise. +1 beer to you. Teamwork for thee, but no teamwork for me, such is the motto of the anti vehicle infantry.
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1159	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:14:00 - [59] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: Foxhound Elite wrote: I like to see people giving out about the upcoming changes to AV. You've had it coming, and stop complaining about how it's going to look about in the future vs. Tanks. I see nobodys saying 'but we won't have any way to fend off stomping dropship pilots' , ... it's because dropship pilots rarely get a chance to make any impact. Why, you say? Because it only takes one swarm launcher, one forge gunner or one rail installation user to remove the threat of even the most skilled of pilots from the battlefield. Stop your whining, you'll have together to take out vehicles, which is what it should be. Vehicle users spend more ISK and SP than you, in an open one vs one battle, they should always crush you. Only where you use your surroundings and fellow teammates to help, then you should overcome the vehicular opposition, unless they fail due to pilot error otherwise. Im not crying, im learning how to drive tanks.... BTW this: '' Vehicle users spend more ISK and SP than you, in an open one vs one battle, they should always crush you. '' Is the most stupid thing i've read. If this game ends up being: Better equipment > Skill IM LEAVING. I dont give a flying f*** if your tank costs 50 million isk, if im better i should be able to drop your butt. PERIOD. @ the end of the day, as you said, is 1 on 1 , you are just wearing a mechanical, more expensive suit.... A 1 on 1 battle that cannot be won no matter what , makes a game broken. Let me guess, you want your Duvolle to be able to destroy that 50mil ISK tank in less than two magazines? Teamwork for thee, but no teamwork for me, such is the motto of the anti vehicle infantry.
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 587	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:15:00 - [60] - Quote Needless, your basic reasoning is flawed. This point cannot be addressed by such. Best we move on. Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight

Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1159	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:15:00 - [61] - Quote CharCharOdell wrote: How about this: LIGHT AV weapons should be good at taking out light vehicles, but ineffective at taking out heavy vehicles, while heavy AV kills all vehicles relatively quickly. Doesn't that make sense? It makes too much sense, which is why infantry won't allow it. Teamwork for thee, but no teamwork for me, such is the motto of the anti vehicle infantry.
Mobius Wyvern Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 3773	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:15:00 - [62] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: By "you people" do you mean someone asking a simple question in a neutral way? You answered, aggressively, but there is an answer in there. Unfortunately this is really a product of the excessive vitriol found in AV/Vehicle threads - it tends to come from both sides and has lead to an 'us and them' mentality. Yeah, the hostility in these threads has grown to rival even that of the "AR vs (other weapon)" threads. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 555	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:16:00 - [63] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Okay solo fine but your talking about a frigate trying to destroy a battle cruiser here. Its not that ******* easy. We don't want it to be easy ... granted the weapon itself is easy to operate, but gaining the tactical advantage to engage for long enough is what takes skill ... but only against a skillful driver ... the ones that just role up in the middle of a field should expect to be annihilated for their stupidity. It's also pretty damn easy for a frigate to destroy a battle cruiser if the frigate has the tactical advantage.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 4466	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:16:00 - [64] - Quote Void Echo wrote: Needless Sacermendor wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: And he did say that. If a thing is not superior, then it has no properties that are greater than; then this means it is equal. A single property that is greater/superior would mean the whole is greater if no other properties are changed. Wrong ... you're definition is of something that is better ... something that is superior has every property better and is in another league and cannot be beaten by. A proto dropsuit with complex extenders n plates n proto weapons is not superior to a militia fitting ... because a militia fitting is capable of killing proto fittings. SP and ISK do not make you superior or replace skill ... what it does do is give you an advantage ... you can extend that advantage over all aspects of your fitting, but it will NEVER make you superior as skill can still defeat you. its a giant contradiction then, theres no way this would work in real life. Congratulations on attaining forum warrior level 2. Needless Sacermendor - I suppose if you define superior as that then yes, things should not be superior due to isk investment alone. I agree - skill should certainly allow lesser investments to defeat greater investments. It worries me that protosuits are so dominant in the infantry vs infantry area at the moment, but they can at least still be killed. Void Echo - Would you mind terribly clarifying what you think is contradicting itself? I'm a little baffled, and I would very much like to hear your feelings clearly on the matter. Level 4 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1159	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:16:00 - [65] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Justin Tymes wrote: Yet another "X SP should mean superiority" thread. Save your SP > skill rant for when 1.7 comes out. Your roll eyes emote and your 1 line dismissive response lies on-top of a confusing point. Your say that SP should not add value, i.e superior abilities or gear. If this is not the function of SP as you say then what do you think skill points should do? What are they for in your version of DUST? By your logic, and the OPs, when i have 20 millions SP (in about a week or two) and since i spent almost all of it in AV (Have everything proto) and suits and skills for using it, then, *NO VEHICLE USER UNDER 20mill SP should be able to survive one of my AV attacks?* Seems fun. TY It doesn't take 20 mil SP to use AV well. Not even close. Less than a million gets Aurum PRO AV. Teamwork for thee, but no teamwork for me, such is the motto of the anti vehicle infantry.
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1159	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:19:00 - [66] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: It doesn't take 20 mil SP to use AV well. Not even close. Well of course not, who said that>? not me for sure. But again thats not what we are talking about here godin. :3 You said you spent almost all of it into AV, so es you did. Its impossible spending 20 mill into AV. Remember ; the only way to harm vehicles is with 4 weapons. Which except plasma cannon i have all proto, and the suits with proto modules,proficiency ,etc... needed to fully run them. So you say you have almost 20 mil into AV, then say it's not possible to spend 20 mil in AV. So what is it? Teamwork for thee, but no teamwork for me, such is the motto of the anti vehicle infantry.
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 555	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:22:00 - [67] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: CharCharOdell wrote: How about this: LIGHT AV weapons should be good at taking out light vehicles, but ineffective at taking out heavy vehicles, while heavy AV kills all vehicles relatively quickly. Doesn't that make sense? It makes too much sense, which is why infantry won't allow it. I'll accept it when Heavies can stand toe to toe with the heaviest of vehicles and survive ... like they're supposed to according to the description. Good luck with your 5,000 hp heavy suits on the field though.
Void Echo Blades of Dust 2006	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:22:00 - [68] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Void Echo wrote: Needless Sacermendor wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: And he did say that. If a thing is not superior, then it has no properties that are greater than; then this means it is equal. A single property that is greater/superior would mean the whole is greater if no other properties are changed. Wrong ... you're definition is of something that is better ... something that is superior has every property better and is in another league and cannot be beaten by. A proto dropsuit with complex extenders n plates n proto weapons is not superior to a militia fitting ... because a militia fitting is capable of killing proto fittings. SP and ISK do not make you superior or replace skill ... what it does do is give you an advantage ... you can extend that advantage over all aspects of your fitting, but it will NEVER make you superior as skill can still defeat you. its a giant contradiction then, theres no way this would work in real life. Congratulations on attaining forum warrior level 2. Needless Sacermendor - I suppose if you define superior as that then yes, things should not be superior due to isk investment alone. I agree - skill should certainly allow lesser investments to defeat greater investments. It worries me that protosuits are so dominant in the infantry vs infantry area at the moment, but they can at least still be killed. Void Echo - Would you mind terribly clarifying what you think is contradicting itself? I'm a little baffled, and I would very much like to hear your feelings clearly on the matter. whats contradicting about it is that here personal investment is present and so is personal skill... by there reasoning personal investment should not mean anything when it comes to the game. by this standing they are saying that there is no point of me skilling into the gallente proto assault suit because according to them, the militia minmitar suit will be far more powerful because it requires no personal investment whatsoever and the gallente proto suit will be nearly worthless because it requires personal investment. basically punishing anyone attempting to put more into the game than they are. their argument is a giant contradiction. understand? Closed Beta Vet Level 2 Forum Warrior "In my experience love doesnt exist, only cold, dark betrayal does."
Meeko Fent expert intervention Caldari State 1345	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:25:00 - [69] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: By "you people" do you mean someone asking a simple question in a neutral way? You answered, aggressively, but there is an answer in there. Unfortunately this is really a product of the excessive vitriol found in AV/Vehicle threads - it tends to come from both sides and has lead to an 'us and them' mentality. Yeah, the hostility in these threads has grown to rival even that of the "AR vs (other weapon)" threads. Yup. No one can agree on what needs to be done. BTW, favorite sig EVER, one of my favorite quotes. Meeko's Novelty Shop Opening Soon! We (will)sell all the novelty items you desire! Really! King of Uncertainty.
Void Echo Blades of Dust 2006	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:26:00 - [70] - Quote Needless Sacermendor wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: CharCharOdell wrote: How about this: LIGHT AV weapons should be good at taking out light vehicles, but ineffective at taking out heavy vehicles, while heavy AV kills all vehicles relatively quickly. Doesn't that make sense? It makes too much sense, which is why infantry won't allow it. I'll accept it when Heavies can stand toe to toe with the heaviest of vehicles and survive ... like they're supposed to according to the description. Good luck with your 5,000 hp heavy suits on the field though. if heavies are able to stand toe to toe against vehicles, what purpose would there be to skill into vehicles at all when the heavy suit is just as good and requires a lot less personal investment that vehicles do. Closed Beta Vet Level 2 Forum Warrior "In my experience love doesnt exist, only cold, dark betrayal does."

nakaya indigene 0uter.Heaven Proficiency V. 92	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:27:00 - [71] - Quote Its not so much of the isk or sp being put into tanks and DS. Its more about when you are being dominated by AV theres nothing to fall back to. With most pub matches people proto stomp so militia just doesnt cut it. It makes a situation where vechile pilots might as well not play the game and thats bullshit.
Void Echo Blades of Dust 2006	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:31:00 - [72] - Quote nakaya indigene wrote: Its not so much of the isk or sp being put into tanks and DS. Its more about when you are being dominated by AV theres nothing to fall back to. With most pub matches people proto stomp so militia just doesnt cut it. It makes a situation where vechile pilots might as well not play the game and thats bullshit. indeed Closed Beta Vet Level 2 Forum Warrior "In my experience love doesnt exist, only cold, dark betrayal does."
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 4467	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:32:00 - [73] - Quote Void Echo wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Void Echo wrote: Needless Sacermendor wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: And he did say that. If a thing is not superior, then it has no properties that are greater than; then this means it is equal. A single property that is greater/superior would mean the whole is greater if no other properties are changed. Wrong ... you're definition is of something that is better ... something that is superior has every property better and is in another league and cannot be beaten by. A proto dropsuit with complex extenders n plates n proto weapons is not superior to a militia fitting ... because a militia fitting is capable of killing proto fittings. SP and ISK do not make you superior or replace skill ... what it does do is give you an advantage ... you can extend that advantage over all aspects of your fitting, but it will NEVER make you superior as skill can still defeat you. its a giant contradiction then, theres no way this would work in real life. Congratulations on attaining forum warrior level 2. Needless Sacermendor - I suppose if you define superior as that then yes, things should not be superior due to isk investment alone. I agree - skill should certainly allow lesser investments to defeat greater investments. It worries me that protosuits are so dominant in the infantry vs infantry area at the moment, but they can at least still be killed. Void Echo - Would you mind terribly clarifying what you think is contradicting itself? I'm a little baffled, and I would very much like to hear your feelings clearly on the matter. whats contradicting about it is that here personal investment is present and so is personal skill... by there reasoning personal investment should not mean anything when it comes to the game. by this standing they are saying that there is no point of me skilling into the gallente proto assault suit because according to them, the militia minmitar suit will be far more powerful because it requires no personal investment whatsoever and the gallente proto suit will be nearly worthless because it requires personal investment. basically punishing anyone attempting to put more into the game than they are. their argument is a giant contradiction. understand? I'm afraid I don't. Why can't they co-exist? Where SP acts as a force multiplier for skill, conferring a greater advantage? If skill is equal, then in your example the Gallente proto assault suit would beat the militia Minmatar suit handily, as a greater amount of ISK and SP is invested in the Gallente proto assault. If the Gallente proto assault has more skill, then the militia suit is still screwed. However, if the militia Minmatar suit has more skill than the Gallente proto assault, then it should be able to kill them. Can't a similar concept be applied to vehicles? Where investment rewards you, but you can still be outplayed? Level 4 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution
Dovallis Martan JenusKoll Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 299	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:33:00 - [74] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Justin Tymes wrote: Yet another "X SP should mean superiority" thread. Save your SP > skill rant for when 1.7 comes out. Your roll eyes emote and your 1 line dismissive response lies on-top of a confusing point. Your say that SP should not add value, i.e superior abilities or gear. If this is not the function of SP as you say then what do you think skill points should do? What are they for in your version of DUST? By your logic, and the OPs, when i have 20 millions SP (in about a week or two) and since i spent almost all of it in AV (Have everything proto) and suits and skills for using it, then, *NO VEHICLE USER UNDER 20mill SP should be able to survive one of my AV attacks?* Seems fun. TY The most you can put in any one AV tree is about 5.5mil... They don affect one another so you can't claim stacking SP. O.0 If you can read this, it means you are reading.
Justin Tymes Dem Durrty Boyz Public Disorder. 470	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:34:00 - [75] - Quote Void Echo wrote: Justin Tymes wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: I was not advocating one position or the other. I wanted to know what Justin, who thinks SP should not give an advantage, would see as the purpose and function of skill points. If skill points do give and advantage, the determination of the size of this advantage is the balance. If they give no advantage what then? It should give an advantage but that advantage must be relative with everything else in the game. I have about 15mill invested into making a complete Gallente Logistics suit right now. I should always be able to be solo'd, because that's the way Dust works. Tanks already have an advantage to being immune to most weapons, and have the ability to kill anything in seconds, if that. Which is fine but AV has to be your counter. 1 man should be able to solo another man regardless of the SP wall. 1 man should not be bending numerical advantage to his will, simply because he decided to bring a well-fit tank in play, that completely goes against skill. then that means that I wasted over 10 million SP to go into tanks when heavies are the better way to go since they are actually balanced versus other things. and by your logic, dust 514 should not exist because it puts personal investment on the same level as personal skill and you people don't like that. its completely fine for a single man to mow down an entire team inside a human sized heavy dropsuit because well... hes a heavy dropstuit with more hp than you all and he has a more powerful gun. but its wrong for a person to win against an entire team using a 50 ton vehicle sized weapon with a vehicle sized turret mounted on it because by your logic, his sp and isk investment is far greater than yours so he should be punished for being more into it than you are. The logic is that any and everyone should be able to be solo'd regardless of the SP wall or ISK costs. You analogy is bad because it's not rare at all for a heavy to be solo'd. This is completely different from not only requiring specific and limited weapons to kill you, but requiring multiple men to do it, and the number of Infantry needed is dependent on the class of your weapons. That's advantage manipulation period, and it goes against skill.
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 555	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:34:00 - [76] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Void Echo wrote: Needless Sacermendor wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: And he did say that. If a thing is not superior, then it has no properties that are greater than; then this means it is equal. A single property that is greater/superior would mean the whole is greater if no other properties are changed. Wrong ... you're definition is of something that is better ... something that is superior has every property better and is in another league and cannot be beaten by. A proto dropsuit with complex extenders n plates n proto weapons is not superior to a militia fitting ... because a militia fitting is capable of killing proto fittings. SP and ISK do not make you superior or replace skill ... what it does do is give you an advantage ... you can extend that advantage over all aspects of your fitting, but it will NEVER make you superior as skill can still defeat you. its a giant contradiction then, theres no way this would work in real life. Congratulations on attaining forum warrior level 2. Needless Sacermendor - I suppose if you define superior as that then yes, things should not be superior due to isk investment alone. I agree - skill should certainly allow lesser investments to defeat greater investments. It worries me that protosuits are so dominant in the infantry vs infantry area at the moment, but they can at least still be killed. Void Echo - Would you mind terribly clarifying what you think is contradicting itself? I'm a little baffled, and I would very much like to hear your feelings clearly on the matter. Yeah ... exactly what's being contradicted ? It does work in real life ... because there is very little that is superior in real life ... a Ferrari is a better race car than a Volvo, but a skilled driver in a volvo could likely beat your nan in a Ferrari round the Nubergring. The Ferrari is not superior than the Volvo if it can be beaten. If those cars had the ability to drive themselves ... then we'd have a different story ... but still the Volvo could get a weeks shopping in the boot, so the Ferrari is still not a superior car, it's just better at driving fast.
KING CHECKMATE AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS 2170	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:37:00 - [77] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Let me guess, you want your Duvolle to be able to destroy that 50mil ISK tank in less than two magazines? Funny that you mentioned taht. My AR operation is at 4 (for TACs an Burst). I dont have a Duvolle. u+Élop s-¦ -Äll+Én-ç+ö+É
Void Echo Blades of Dust 2006	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:38:00 - [78] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Void Echo wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Congratulations on attaining forum warrior level 2. Needless Sacermendor - I suppose if you define superior as that then yes, things should not be superior due to isk investment alone. I agree - skill should certainly allow lesser investments to defeat greater investments. It worries me that protosuits are so dominant in the infantry vs infantry area at the moment, but they can at least still be killed. Void Echo - Would you mind terribly clarifying what you think is contradicting itself? I'm a little baffled, and I would very much like to hear your feelings clearly on the matter. whats contradicting about it is that here personal investment is present and so is personal skill... by there reasoning personal investment should not mean anything when it comes to the game. by this standing they are saying that there is no point of me skilling into the gallente proto assault suit because according to them, the militia minmitar suit will be far more powerful because it requires no personal investment whatsoever and the gallente proto suit will be nearly worthless because it requires personal investment. basically punishing anyone attempting to put more into the game than they are. their argument is a giant contradiction. understand? I'm afraid I don't. Why can't they co-exist? Where SP acts as a force multiplier for skill, conferring a greater advantage? If skill is equal, then in your example the Gallente proto assault suit would beat the militia Minmatar suit handily, as a greater amount of ISK and SP is invested in the Gallente proto assault. If the Gallente proto assault has more skill, then the militia suit is still screwed. However, if the militia Minmatar suit has more skill than the Gallente proto assault, then it should be able to kill them. Can't a similar concept be applied to vehicles? Where investment rewards you, but you can still be outplayed? indeed, there has to be a balance, right now and for as long as I can remember, there is really no incentive to skill into tanks other than to have tank fights which rarely happen anymore. according to everyone else here though, your militia minmitar suit will always beat my proto gallente suit regardless if I put over 10x more investment into my suit than you did for yours. skill and personal investment should be considered on the same level and the same on some subjects, but people from call of duty, battle field and other games where they have never had to put their personal time and effort into anything reject the personal investment part of this game and demand that their militia suits be able to one shot everything that's bigger and more powerful then they are. I can see that the reason why this game is so terrible with the community is because this game is different and new... and people don't like new things, they want what theyv known for years without having to think. Closed Beta Vet Level 2 Forum Warrior "In my experience love doesnt exist, only cold, dark betrayal does."
Lorhak Gannarsein Science For Death The Shadow Eclipse 498	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:38:00 - [79] - Quote So... what exactly is the point of tanks, in the end? I drive the damn things and I've not a clue. What's their role? What are they supposed to be used for? How can you balance them if you don't know what FOR?
KING CHECKMATE AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS 2170	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:38:00 - [80] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: So you say you have almost 20 mil into AV, then say it's not possible to spend 20 mil in AV. So what is it? GÖªits impossible to spend 20 mill in AV weapons alone GÖªi have almost 20 mill spent in AV fittings. (Dropsuits for AV,Cx Modules,Nanohives,etc..) u+Élop s-¦ -Äll+Én-ç+ö+É

Void Echo Blades of Dust 2006	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:40:00 - [81] - Quote Justin Tymes wrote: Void Echo wrote: Justin Tymes wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: I was not advocating one position or the other. I wanted to know what Justin, who thinks SP should not give an advantage, would see as the purpose and function of skill points. If skill points do give and advantage, the determination of the size of this advantage is the balance. If they give no advantage what then? It should give an advantage but that advantage must be relative with everything else in the game. I have about 15mill invested into making a complete Gallente Logistics suit right now. I should always be able to be solo'd, because that's the way Dust works. Tanks already have an advantage to being immune to most weapons, and have the ability to kill anything in seconds, if that. Which is fine but AV has to be your counter. 1 man should be able to solo another man regardless of the SP wall. 1 man should not be bending numerical advantage to his will, simply because he decided to bring a well-fit tank in play, that completely goes against skill. then that means that I wasted over 10 million SP to go into tanks when heavies are the better way to go since they are actually balanced versus other things. and by your logic, dust 514 should not exist because it puts personal investment on the same level as personal skill and you people don't like that. its completely fine for a single man to mow down an entire team inside a human sized heavy dropsuit because well... hes a heavy dropstuit with more hp than you all and he has a more powerful gun. but its wrong for a person to win against an entire team using a 50 ton vehicle sized weapon with a vehicle sized turret mounted on it because by your logic, his sp and isk investment is far greater than yours so he should be punished for being more into it than you are. The logic is that any and everyone should be able to be solo'd regardless of the SP wall or ISK costs. You analogy is bad because it's not rare at all for a heavy to be solo'd. This is completely different from not only requiring specific and limited weapons to kill you, but requiring multiple men to do it, and the number of Infantry needed is dependent on the class of your weapons. That's advantage manipulation period, and it goes against skill. then refund my tank sp so I can put it into proto gallente assault, since by your logic, my gallente suit should one shot any tank with a scrambler pistol. in fact, refund all of my sp, because any militia dropsuit should be able to solo a giant massively superior tank. Closed Beta Vet Level 2 Forum Warrior "In my experience love doesnt exist, only cold, dark betrayal does."
Mortedeamor WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL The Ascendancy 554	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:41:00 - [82] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: Foxhound Elite wrote: I like to see people giving out about the upcoming changes to AV. You've had it coming, and stop complaining about how it's going to look about in the future vs. Tanks. I see nobodys saying 'but we won't have any way to fend off stomping dropship pilots' , ... it's because dropship pilots rarely get a chance to make any impact. Why, you say? Because it only takes one swarm launcher, one forge gunner or one rail installation user to remove the threat of even the most skilled of pilots from the battlefield. Stop your whining, you'll have together to take out vehicles, which is what it should be. Vehicle users spend more ISK and SP than you, in an open one vs one battle, they should always crush you. Only where you use your surroundings and fellow teammates to help, then you should overcome the vehicular opposition, unless they fail due to pilot error otherwise. Im not crying, im learning how to drive tanks.... BTW this: '' Vehicle users spend more ISK and SP than you, in an open one vs one battle, they should always crush you. '' Is the most stupid thing i've read. If this game ends up being: Better equipment > Skill IM LEAVING. I dont give a flying f*** if your tank costs 50 million isk, if im better i should be able to drop your butt. PERIOD. @ the end of the day, as you said, is 1 on 1 , you are just wearing a mechanical, more expensive suit.... A 1 on 1 battle that cannot be won no matter what , makes a game broken. meh idiot tankers will still be soloed by lone skilled avers' and said lone skilled avers can actually be proud of soloing a tank knowing that it requires skill and not just good gear as it is atm
Void Echo Blades of Dust 2006	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:42:00 - [83] - Quote Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: So... what exactly is the point of tanks, in the end? I drive the damn things and I've not a clue. What's their role? What are they supposed to be used for? How can you balance them if you don't know what FOR? according to the people currently posting, there is no point because suits should be more powerful than an entire planet, so tanks are a giant contradiction because they require tremendous personal investment for absolutely nothing. Closed Beta Vet Level 2 Forum Warrior "In my experience love doesnt exist, only cold, dark betrayal does."
Justin Tymes Dem Durrty Boyz Public Disorder. 470	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:45:00 - [84] - Quote Void Echo wrote: Justin Tymes wrote: Void Echo wrote: Justin Tymes wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: I was not advocating one position or the other. I wanted to know what Justin, who thinks SP should not give an advantage, would see as the purpose and function of skill points. If skill points do give and advantage, the determination of the size of this advantage is the balance. If they give no advantage what then? It should give an advantage but that advantage must be relative with everything else in the game. I have about 15mill invested into making a complete Gallente Logistics suit right now. I should always be able to be solo'd, because that's the way Dust works. Tanks already have an advantage to being immune to most weapons, and have the ability to kill anything in seconds, if that. Which is fine but AV has to be your counter. 1 man should be able to solo another man regardless of the SP wall. 1 man should not be bending numerical advantage to his will, simply because he decided to bring a well-fit tank in play, that completely goes against skill. then that means that I wasted over 10 million SP to go into tanks when heavies are the better way to go since they are actually balanced versus other things. and by your logic, dust 514 should not exist because it puts personal investment on the same level as personal skill and you people don't like that. its completely fine for a single man to mow down an entire team inside a human sized heavy dropsuit because well... hes a heavy dropstuit with more hp than you all and he has a more powerful gun. but its wrong for a person to win against an entire team using a 50 ton vehicle sized weapon with a vehicle sized turret mounted on it because by your logic, his sp and isk investment is far greater than yours so he should be punished for being more into it than you are. The logic is that any and everyone should be able to be solo'd regardless of the SP wall or ISK costs. You analogy is bad because it's not rare at all for a heavy to be solo'd. This is completely different from not only requiring specific and limited weapons to kill you, but requiring multiple men to do it, and the number of Infantry needed is dependent on the class of your weapons. That's advantage manipulation period, and it goes against skill. then refund my tank sp so I can put it into proto gallente assault, since by your logic, my gallente suit should one shot any tank with a scrambler pistol. I don't know where you got a Gallente suit with a scrambler pistol soloing a tank out of my my post, but I'm done.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 4469	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:52:00 - [85] - Quote Void Echo wrote: Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: So... what exactly is the point of tanks, in the end? I drive the damn things and I've not a clue. What's their role? What are they supposed to be used for? How can you balance them if you don't know what FOR? according to the people currently posting, there is no point because suits should be more powerful than an entire planet, so tanks are a giant contradiction because they require tremendous personal investment for absolutely nothing. I wish it wouldn't come to this every time there's a discussion about this topic. No. For the fourth time - Investment should give an advantage, but it shouldn't mean that you automatically win against anything of lower investment. Level 4 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 555	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:53:00 - [86] - Quote Void Echo wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Void Echo wrote: Needless Sacermendor wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: And he did say that. If a thing is not superior, then it has no properties that are greater than; then this means it is equal. A single property that is greater/superior would mean the whole is greater if no other properties are changed. Wrong ... you're definition is of something that is better ... something that is superior has every property better and is in another league and cannot be beaten by. A proto dropsuit with complex extenders n plates n proto weapons is not superior to a militia fitting ... because a militia fitting is capable of killing proto fittings. SP and ISK do not make you superior or replace skill ... what it does do is give you an advantage ... you can extend that advantage over all aspects of your fitting, but it will NEVER make you superior as skill can still defeat you. its a giant contradiction then, theres no way this would work in real life. Congratulations on attaining forum warrior level 2. Needless Sacermendor - I suppose if you define superior as that then yes, things should not be superior due to isk investment alone. I agree - skill should certainly allow lesser investments to defeat greater investments. It worries me that protosuits are so dominant in the infantry vs infantry area at the moment, but they can at least still be killed. Void Echo - Would you mind terribly clarifying what you think is contradicting itself? I'm a little baffled, and I would very much like to hear your feelings clearly on the matter. whats contradicting about it is that here personal investment is present and so is personal skill... by there reasoning personal investment should not mean anything when it comes to the game. by this standing they are saying that there is no point of me skilling into the gallente proto assault suit because according to them, the militia minmitar suit will be far more powerful because it requires no personal investment whatsoever and the gallente proto suit will be nearly worthless because it requires personal investment. basically punishing anyone attempting to put more into the game than they are. their argument is a giant contradiction. understand? If you're skilling into that Gallente proto Assault suit because you have no skill or because you expect it to be unbeatable then I can tell you now, there's really no point skilling into it. Personal skill is still present in people with low SP and so are tactical advantages ... both of which should trump your proto assault suit even if the difference is 100x the SP investment ... especially if you have no personal skill. On the other hand, as is generally the case, someone with personal skill and tactical advantage and proto level fittings would be superior. Is that simples enough for you ?
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 555	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:57:00 - [87] - Quote I think Void Echo skipped debating 101 class !
Cody Sietz Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 1317	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:59:00 - [88] - Quote I can verify the Gallente proto Assault statement xD
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 556	Posted - 2013.10.31 00:06:00 - [89] - Quote Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: So... what exactly is the point of tanks, in the end? I drive the damn things and I've not a clue. What's their role? What are they supposed to be used for? How can you balance them if you don't know what FOR? They're supposed to scare infantry ... they do it so well in fact that many infantry adapt and skill into AV weapons to counter them. It's a lot like when calogis were running round with massive shields and everyone quickly started carrying fluxes (cos lazers had been nerfed to oblivion). The problem is that those that decided they wanted the security of 7 inches of steel wrapped around them, suddenly realised they had no adaptation of their own since they skilled into something so specialised and conspicuous and they had no dropsuit skills to fall back on to counter what had been deployed to counter their assets.
Void Echo Blades of Dust 2006	Posted - 2013.10.31 00:07:00 - [90] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Void Echo wrote: Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: So... what exactly is the point of tanks, in the end? I drive the damn things and I've not a clue. What's their role? What are they supposed to be used for? How can you balance them if you don't know what FOR? according to the people currently posting, there is no point because suits should be more powerful than an entire planet, so tanks are a giant contradiction because they require tremendous personal investment for absolutely nothing. I wish it wouldn't come to this every time there's a discussion about this topic. No. For the fourth time - Investment should give an advantage, but it shouldn't mean that you automatically win against anything of lower investment. I wish that were how everyone else thought Closed Beta Vet Level 2 Forum Warrior "In my experience love doesnt exist, only cold, dark betrayal does."

Void Echo Blades of Dust 2006	Posted - 2013.10.31 00:10:00 - [91] - Quote Needless Sacermendor wrote: Void Echo wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Wrong ... you're definition is of something that is better ... something that is superior has every property better and is in another league and cannot be beaten by. A proto dropsuit with complex extenders n plates n proto weapons is not superior to a militia fitting ... because a militia fitting is capable of killing proto fittings. SP and ISK do not make you superior or replace skill ... what it does do is give you an advantage ... you can extend that advantage over all aspects of your fitting, but it will NEVER make you superior as skill can still defeat you. its a giant contradiction then, theres no way this would work in real life. Congratulations on attaining forum warrior level 2. Needless Sacermendor - I suppose if you define superior as that then yes, things should not be superior due to isk investment alone. I agree - skill should certainly allow lesser investments to defeat greater investments. It worries me that protosuits are so dominant in the infantry vs infantry area at the moment, but they can at least still be killed. Void Echo - Would you mind terribly clarifying what you think is contradicting itself? I'm a little baffled, and I would very much like to hear your feelings clearly on the matter. whats contradicting about it is that here personal investment is present and so is personal skill... by there reasoning personal investment should not mean anything when it comes to the game. by this standing they are saying that there is no point of me skilling into the gallente proto assault suit because according to them, the militia minmitar suit will be far more powerful because it requires no personal investment whatsoever and the gallente proto suit will be nearly worthless because it requires personal investment. basically punishing anyone attempting to put more into the game than they are. their argument is a giant contradiction. understand?[/quote] If you're skilling into that Gallente proto Assault suit because you have no skill or because you expect it to be unbeatable then I can tell you now, there's really no point skilling into it. Personal skill is still present in people with low SP and so are tactical advantages ... both of which should trump your proto assault suit even if the difference is 100x the SP investment ... especially if you have no personal skill. On the other hand, as is generally the case, someone with personal skill and tactical advantage and proto level fittings would be superior. Is that simples enough for you ?[/quote] the way you would have it is that a single militia suit would wipe the floor with nothing but enemy proto suits because he has personal skill, and the proto have skill but their investment is far more but they would still be cheated out of everything they had. Closed Beta Vet Level 2 Forum Warrior "In my experience love doesnt exist, only cold, dark betrayal does."
Void Echo Blades of Dust 2006	Posted - 2013.10.31 00:12:00 - [92] - Quote answer my question: why should I put all of my personal investment and skill into tanks when a heavy who has put so little investment into his would be far more efficient? what would be the point of skilling into something if another thing could do its job better at a much lower investment requirement? also, where would be the balance between "skill" and personal investment in this game when "skill would completely denounce logic when fighting far superior equipment? Closed Beta Vet Level 2 Forum Warrior "In my experience love doesnt exist, only cold, dark betrayal does."
Void Echo Blades of Dust 2006	Posted - 2013.10.31 00:15:00 - [93] - Quote Needless Sacermendor wrote: Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: So... what exactly is the point of tanks, in the end? I drive the damn things and I've not a clue. What's their role? What are they supposed to be used for? How can you balance them if you don't know what FOR? They're supposed to scare infantry ... they do it so well in fact that many infantry adapt and skill into AV weapons to counter them. It's a lot like when calogis were running round with massive shields and everyone quickly started carrying fluxes (cos lazers had been nerfed to oblivion). The problem is that those that decided they wanted the security of 7 inches of steel wrapped around them, suddenly realised they had no adaptation of their own since they skilled into something so specialised and conspicuous and they had no dropsuit skills to fall back on to counter what had been deployed to counter their assets. technically that's not true, im a vet tanker with over 10 million SP in tanks yet I am adaptable and can survive outside of my tank. I also have sp into gallente assault, I make your statement invalid. Closed Beta Vet Level 2 Forum Warrior "In my experience love doesnt exist, only cold, dark betrayal does."
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 556	Posted - 2013.10.31 00:27:00 - [94] - Quote Void ... seriously give it a rest ... you're making a fool of yourself arguing points people haven't even made. Come back when you've learnt a little reading comprehension. You're hung up on my quoting of the Heavy dropsuit description in game which says it should be able to stand toe to toe with the heaviest of vehicles (or something similar) ... when that statement was in reply to someone saying that light AV should only be useful against light vehicles ... a dumb statement since we only have LAVs currently that are light vehicles. I said fine, so long as Heavies fit their description. Now take a minute to read through ANYTHING else I've written in this thread ... and tell me again, even quote me saying anything about unskilled low sp people being at an advantage against skilled proto users UNLESS they have a tactical advantage, like you're on your own in a bunker calling in an orbital or looking at the map and they walk in on you. Surely even you can manage to comprehend that from everything I've posted here.
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 556	Posted - 2013.10.31 00:29:00 - [95] - Quote Void Echo wrote: technically that's not true, im a vet tanker with over 10 million SP in tanks yet I am adaptable and can survive outside of my tank. I also have sp into gallente assault, I make your statement invalid. Yes ... you are special ... you make a lot of statements invalid ... particularly the one about 'Common' sense.
Void Echo Blades of Dust 2006	Posted - 2013.10.31 00:31:00 - [96] - Quote Needless Sacermendor wrote: Void ... seriously give it a rest ... you're making a fool of yourself arguing points people haven't even made. Come back when you've learnt a little reading comprehension. You're hung up on my quoting of the Heavy dropsuit description in game which says it should be able to stand toe to toe with the heaviest of vehicles (or something similar) ... when that statement was in reply to someone saying that light AV should only be useful against light vehicles ... a dumb statement since we only have LAVs currently that are light vehicles. I said fine, so long as Heavies fit their description. Now take a minute to read through ANYTHING else I've written in this thread ... and tell me again, even quote me saying anything about unskilled low sp people being at an advantage against skilled proto users UNLESS they have a tactical advantage, like you're on your own in a bunker calling in an orbital or looking at the map and they walk in on you. Surely even you can manage to comprehend that from everything I've posted here. why don't you just answer my question. Closed Beta Vet Level 2 Forum Warrior "In my experience love doesnt exist, only cold, dark betrayal does."
Pocket Rocket Girl Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 72	Posted - 2013.10.31 00:31:00 - [97] - Quote Void Echo wrote: answer my question: why should I put all of my personal investment and skill into tanks when a heavy who has put so little investment into his would be far more efficient? what would be the point of skilling into something if another thing could do its job better at a much lower investment requirement? also, where would be the balance between "skill" and personal investment in this game when "skill would completely denounce logic when fighting far superior equipment? Because it is a personal choice like the people who choose to spend Sp into scouts,as well that choice apeals to your personal play style. i could have chosen to spend into a caldari proto with stacking shields and armor and a duvolle at a lower investment but instead went for minmatar logi hack build instead because it appealed to my and what i felt i would be better at. i do not understand your second question
Void Echo Blades of Dust 2006	Posted - 2013.10.31 00:36:00 - [98] - Quote Pocket Rocket Girl wrote: Void Echo wrote: answer my question: why should I put all of my personal investment and skill into tanks when a heavy who has put so little investment into his would be far more efficient? what would be the point of skilling into something if another thing could do its job better at a much lower investment requirement? also, where would be the balance between "skill" and personal investment in this game when "skill would completely denounce logic when fighting far superior equipment? Because it is a personal choice like the people who choose to spend Sp into scouts,as well that choice apeals to your personal play style. i could have chosen to spend into a caldari proto with stacking shields and armor and a duvolle at a lower investment but instead went for minmatar logi hack build instead because it appealed to my and what i felt i would be better at. i do not understand your second question my seconds question is pretty straight forward. Closed Beta Vet Level 2 Forum Warrior "In my experience love doesnt exist, only cold, dark betrayal does."
Meeko Fent expert intervention Caldari State 1345	Posted - 2013.10.31 00:38:00 - [99] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Void Echo wrote: Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: So... what exactly is the point of tanks, in the end? I drive the damn things and I've not a clue. What's their role? What are they supposed to be used for? How can you balance them if you don't know what FOR? according to the people currently posting, there is no point because suits should be more powerful than an entire planet, so tanks are a giant contradiction because they require tremendous personal investment for absolutely nothing. I wish it wouldn't come to this every time there's a discussion about this topic. No. For the fourth time - Investment should give an advantage, but it shouldn't mean that you automatically win against anything of lower investment. And tanks shouldn't. However, that lower investment shouldn't kill the higher investment as fast as an investment of equal caliber. I think these new changes express that quite nicely. Tanks die slower, tanks can only lock a place down for so long before a run to a supply depot is needed. Looks fine to me. People just need to stop crying when nothing is really looking OP/UP right now. Meeko's Novelty Shop Opening Soon! We (will)sell all the novelty items you desire! Really! King of Uncertainty.
Meeko Fent expert intervention Caldari State 1345	Posted - 2013.10.31 00:41:00 - [100] - Quote Needless Sacermendor wrote: Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: So... what exactly is the point of tanks, in the end? I drive the damn things and I've not a clue. What's their role? What are they supposed to be used for? How can you balance them if you don't know what FOR? They're supposed to scare infantry ... they do it so well in fact that many infantry adapt and skill into AV weapons to counter them. It's a lot like when calogis were running round with massive shields and everyone quickly started carrying fluxes (cos lazers had been nerfed to oblivion). The problem is that those that decided they wanted the security of 7 inches of steel wrapped around them, suddenly realised they had no adaptation of their own since they skilled into something so specialised and conspicuous and they had no dropsuit skills to fall back on to counter what had been deployed to counter their assets. Technically, tanks almost have 72 inches of steel around them. Provided they fit a 180mm plate. Just thought that was a cool little fun fact. Edit-Just realized that I was thinking in cm instead of mm. Derp. Disregard my lack of technical knowledge. Meeko's Novelty Shop Opening Soon! We (will)sell all the novelty items you desire! Really! King of Uncertainty.

Void Echo Blades of Dust 2006	Posted - 2013.10.31 00:42:00 - [101] - Quote in my opinion. personal investment should allow you to compete, personal skill should allow you to overcome. you should not be able to have one without the other, they should be joined. Closed Beta Vet Level 2 Forum Warrior "In my experience love doesnt exist, only cold, dark betrayal does."
Specter RND Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 111	Posted - 2013.10.31 00:42:00 - [102] - Quote Meh I'm just gonna be a ***** and adapt to this. It's not that big of a difference whether if they change it or not. I'll enjoy the fact that the scrub FG's are gone.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 4471	Posted - 2013.10.31 00:47:00 - [103] - Quote Void Echo wrote: answer my question: why should I put all of my personal investment and skill into tanks when a heavy who has put so little investment into his would be far more efficient? what would be the point of skilling into something if another thing could do its job better at a much lower investment requirement? also, where would be the balance between "skill" and personal investment in this game when "skill would completely denounce logic when fighting far superior equipment? A heavy is not far more efficient at killing than a tank. The current state of heavies is laughable. Your second question does not make sense. I have a rough idea of what you're talking about though - Are you saying that if you have superior equipment you should be completely unkillable by inferior equipment? If so, then I disagree. Strenuously. This game already has enough problems with newbie stomping without it becoming literally impossible for newbies to compete. Level 4 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution
Void Echo Blades of Dust 2006	Posted - 2013.10.31 00:48:00 - [104] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Void Echo wrote: answer my question: why should I put all of my personal investment and skill into tanks when a heavy who has put so little investment into his would be far more efficient? what would be the point of skilling into something if another thing could do its job better at a much lower investment requirement? also, where would be the balance between "skill" and personal investment in this game when "skill would completely denounce logic when fighting far superior equipment? A heavy is not far more efficient at killing than a tank. The current state of heavies is laughable. Your second question does not make sense. I have a rough idea of what you're talking about though - Are you saying that if you have superior equipment you should be completely unkillable by inferior equipment? If so, then I disagree. Strenuously. This game already has enough problems with newbie stomping without it becoming literally impossible for newbies to compete. look at my post on this page. if im going against a full team of proto suits in only a militia suit, should I be able to wipe the floor with them? Closed Beta Vet Level 2 Forum Warrior "In my experience love doesnt exist, only cold, dark betrayal does."
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 4472	Posted - 2013.10.31 00:56:00 - [105] - Quote Void Echo wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Void Echo wrote: answer my question: why should I put all of my personal investment and skill into tanks when a heavy who has put so little investment into his would be far more efficient? what would be the point of skilling into something if another thing could do its job better at a much lower investment requirement? also, where would be the balance between "skill" and personal investment in this game when "skill would completely denounce logic when fighting far superior equipment? A heavy is not far more efficient at killing than a tank. The current state of heavies is laughable. Your second question does not make sense. I have a rough idea of what you're talking about though - Are you saying that if you have superior equipment you should be completely unkillable by inferior equipment? If so, then I disagree. Strenuously. This game already has enough problems with newbie stomping without it becoming literally impossible for newbies to compete. look at my post on this page. also that was an example. and btw heavies are more efficient than tanks are money wise. if im going against a full team of proto suits in only a militia suit, should I be able to wipe the floor with them? Oh yes, more efficient isk wise. My BPO suits are infinitely efficient, whilst we're on that subject. Perhaps you should drop everything and run for them if that's so important? A heavy suit is not as effective at killing as a tank is, nor is it as durable. Not efficient, effective. Part of what balances spending large amounts of isk are diminishing returns per isk. Otherwise prototype suits would be even more powerful and actually sustainable - neither of which would be good for the game. Similarly, you pay for the power of HAVs. You can ***** and whine about how you don't think you're invincible enough, but you are investing isk for more power. That's a ridiculously loaded example. Obviously not - not only is your gear outmatched, you are also outnumbered. Even if they're complete retards you're going to get wrecked. The examples I was giving were where skill could tip the scales, not make everything else completely irrelevant. You have to be deliberately misinterpreting me now because I honestly believe someone can't be that stupid. I'm done. I tried to be reasonable with you. It took 6 pages, but I've realised you can't be reasoned with. Congratulations. Level 4 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution
Gelan Corbaine Sebiestor Field Sappers Minmatar Republic 213	Posted - 2013.10.31 00:59:00 - [106] - Quote Void Echo wrote: look at my post on this page. also that was an example. and btw heavies are more efficient than tanks are money wise. if im going against a full team of proto suits in only a militia suit, should I be able to wipe the floor with them? Only way a heavy is more efficient than a tank money wise is if he's ontop a tower in the middle of a bunch of nanohives and triades, otherwise no .
Void Echo Blades of Dust 2007	Posted - 2013.10.31 01:07:00 - [107] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Void Echo wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Void Echo wrote: answer my question: why should I put all of my personal investment and skill into tanks when a heavy who has put so little investment into his would be far more efficient? what would be the point of skilling into something if another thing could do its job better at a much lower investment requirement? also, where would be the balance between "skill" and personal investment in this game when "skill would completely denounce logic when fighting far superior equipment? A heavy is not far more efficient at killing than a tank. The current state of heavies is laughable. Your second question does not make sense. I have a rough idea of what you're talking about though - Are you saying that if you have superior equipment you should be completely unkillable by inferior equipment? If so, then I disagree. Strenuously. This game already has enough problems with newbie stomping without it becoming literally impossible for newbies to compete. look at my post on this page. also that was an example. and btw heavies are more efficient than tanks are money wise. if im going against a full team of proto suits in only a militia suit, should I be able to wipe the floor with them? Oh yes, more efficient isk wise. My BPO suits are infinitely efficient, whilst we're on that subject. Perhaps you should drop everything and run for them if that's so important? A heavy suit is not as effective at killing as a tank is, nor is it as durable. Not efficient, effective. Part of what balances spending large amounts of isk are diminishing returns per isk. Otherwise prototype suits would be even more powerful and actually sustainable - neither of which would be good for the game. Similarly, you pay for the power of HAVs. You can *** and whine about how you don't think you're invincible enough, but you are investing isk for more power. That's a ridiculously loaded example. Obviously not - not only is your gear outmatched, you are also outnumbered. Even if they're complete retards you're going to get wrecked. The examples I was giving were where skill could tip the scales, not make everything else completely irrelevant. You have to be deliberately misinterpreting me now because I honestly believe someone can't be that stupid. I'm done. I tried to be reasonable with you. It took 6 pages, but I've realised you can't be reasoned with. Congratulations. lol talking about being reasonable? ha I haven't even posted on this thread until 1-2 pages ago, you should pay more attention *. I rarely meet reasonable people in this game, your no different. Closed Beta Vet** Level 2 Forum Warrior "In my experience love doesnt exist, only cold, dark betrayal does."
Void Echo Blades of Dust 2007	Posted - 2013.10.31 01:08:00 - [108] - Quote Gelan Corbaine wrote: Void Echo wrote: look at my post on this page. also that was an example. and btw heavies are more efficient than tanks are money wise. if im going against a full team of proto suits in only a militia suit, should I be able to wipe the floor with them? Only way a heavy is more efficient than a tank money wise is if he's ontop a tower in the middle of a bunch of nanohives and triades, otherwise no . a single tank loss is over 4 matches worth, a single heavy loss is around one match, Id say they are more efficient. Closed Beta Vet Level 2 Forum Warrior "In my experience love doesnt exist, only cold, dark betrayal does."
CharCharOdell 1413	Posted - 2013.10.31 01:23:00 - [109] - Quote This topic needs to stop. AV nades and swarms need to be used in context of light vehicles; not LAVs. Gùñ-é-º+¼+ò+¦GÖÑ+ú+ú+¡ GÖÑ'Ðe+ü+üGùÑ Gùú -ä>-üð+++Ç++§<-¡<-¡ Gùó Speaker of the Mangrove / King of QQ / Co-Founder of the Learning Coalition
Foxhound Elite Ancient Exiles 384	Posted - 2013.10.31 01:28:00 - [110] - Quote Just to clarify, I'm not a tanker, I'm a dropship pilot. Python pilot, troop-transport specialist and an all-round ballbag.

Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1159	Posted - 2013.10.31 03:33:00 - [111] - Quote Needless Sacermendor wrote: I think Void Echo skipped debating 101 class ! Actually, we win our arguments with lists, comparisons, facts, and above all, math. Teamwork for thee, but no teamwork for me, such is the motto of the anti vehicle infantry.
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1159	Posted - 2013.10.31 03:37:00 - [112] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Void Echo wrote: answer my question: why should I put all of my personal investment and skill into tanks when a heavy who has put so little investment into his would be far more efficient? what would be the point of skilling into something if another thing could do its job better at a much lower investment requirement? also, where would be the balance between "skill" and personal investment in this game when "skill would completely denounce logic when fighting far superior equipment? A heavy is not far more efficient at killing than a tank. The current state of heavies is laughable. Your second question does not make sense. I have a rough idea of what you're talking about though - Are you saying that if you have superior equipment you should be completely unkillable by inferior equipment? If so, then I disagree. Strenuously. This game already has enough problems with newbie stomping without it becoming literally impossible for newbies to compete. lolwut A forge gun is far more efficient than any tank turret at destroying a tank. Teamwork for thee, but no teamwork for me, such is the motto of the anti vehicle infantry.
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1159	Posted - 2013.10.31 03:39:00 - [113] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Void Echo wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Void Echo wrote: answer my question: why should I put all of my personal investment and skill into tanks when a heavy who has put so little investment into his would be far more efficient? what would be the point of skilling into something if another thing could do its job better at a much lower investment requirement? also, where would be the balance between "skill" and personal investment in this game when "skill would completely denounce logic when fighting far superior equipment? A heavy is not far more efficient at killing than a tank. The current state of heavies is laughable. Your second question does not make sense. I have a rough idea of what you're talking about though - Are you saying that if you have superior equipment you should be completely unkillable by inferior equipment? If so, then I disagree. Strenuously. This game already has enough problems with newbie stomping without it becoming literally impossible for newbies to compete. look at my post on this page. also that was an example. and btw heavies are more efficient than tanks are money wise. if im going against a full team of proto suits in only a militia suit, should I be able to wipe the floor with them? Oh yes, more efficient isk wise. My BPO suits are infinitely efficient, whilst we're on that subject. Perhaps you should drop everything and run for them if that's so important? A heavy suit is not as effective at killing as a tank is, nor is it as durable. Not efficient, effective. Part of what balances spending large amounts of isk are diminishing returns per isk. Otherwise prototype suits would be even more powerful and actually sustainable - neither of which would be good for the game. Similarly, you pay for the power of HAVs. You can ***** and whine about how you don't think you're invincible enough, but you are investing isk for more power. That's a ridiculously loaded example. Obviously not - not only is your gear outmatched, you are also outnumbered. Even if they're complete retards you're going to get wrecked. The examples I was giving were where skill could tip the scales, not make everything else completely irrelevant. You have to be deliberately misinterpreting me now because I honestly believe someone can't be that stupid. I'm done. I tried to be reasonable with you. It took 6 pages, but I've realised you can't be reasoned with. Congratulations. Of course you can make ISK using PRO suits, they nerfed the price by a hell of a lot. Teamwork for thee, but no teamwork for me, such is the motto of the anti vehicle infantry.
Jackof All-Trades The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 209	Posted - 2013.10.31 04:04:00 - [114] - Quote and what glorious fun it was!
Rusty Shallows Black Jackals 454	Posted - 2013.10.31 04:09:00 - [115] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Justin Tymes wrote: [quote=Judge Rhadamanthus]snip Okay solo fine but your talking about a frigate trying to destroy a battle cruiser here. Its not that ******* easy. Bad analogy, in Eve cheap T1 gank ships take out one billion isk Marauders. CCP even drastically toned down a module that would have matched the ships market cost to its combat value. "She may not be Miss Right but she'll do right now," Thank you SR-71
Sgt Kirk SyNergy Gaming EoN. 2462	Posted - 2013.10.31 04:12:00 - [116] - Quote I dumped tanks as soon as they got rid of my Surya. All I care about is my Methana, which may actually have some chance to survive now that AV grenades aren't insta-kill. I may have deleted DUST but I still care deeply about this game.
Operative 1171 Aajli Bragian Order Amarr Empire 678	Posted - 2013.10.31 04:25:00 - [117] - Quote My understanding is that tanks will be only briefly OP. Then they will go vunerable. Which means you actually need to be smarter about AV and plant yourself at a point where you can blast a tank while it's on cooldown. That shouldn't be hard to do. If a team is organized and plans on the enemy AVer being in that juicy spot along the tanks patrol route then it isn't the tanks fault you can't settle in and camp.
True Adamance PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 3827	Posted - 2013.10.31 04:29:00 - [118] - Quote Rusty Shallows wrote: True Adamance wrote: Justin Tymes wrote: [quote=Judge Rhadamanthus]snip Okay solo fine but your talking about a frigate trying to destroy a battle cruiser here. Its not that ***** easy. Bad analogy, in Eve cheap T1 gank ships take out one billion isk Marauders. CCP even drastically toned down a module that would have matched the ships market cost to its combat value. Admittedly you have to have a lot of them, T1 is *** ** unless you are using T2 guns. "All things were created by the Divine, and so the glory of our faith is inherent to us all"
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1159	Posted - 2013.10.31 04:32:00 - [119] - Quote Infantry, have to intelligently use AV? What is this madness? Teamwork for thee, but no teamwork for me, such is the motto of the anti vehicle infantry.
KING CHECKMATE AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS 2194	Posted - 2013.10.31 04:44:00 - [120] - Quote Every time i get into an AV vs Tanker Thread i get the impression Spkr4theDead and Void echo are lovers.... They just cover their backs mutually so beautifully... :') u+Élop s-¦ -Äll+Én-ç+ö+É

Void Echo Blades of Dust 2010	Posted - 2013.10.31 04:58:00 - [121] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: Every time i get into an AV vs Tanker Thread i get the impression Spkr4theDead and Void echo are lovers.... They just cover their backs mutually so beautifully... :') lol I could see why people would think that. I don't care what he does and I don't associate with him. Closed Beta Vet Level 2 Forum Warrior "In my experience love doesnt exist, only cold, dark betrayal does."
Void Echo Blades of Dust 2010	Posted - 2013.10.31 04:59:00 - [122] - Quote Operative 1171 Aajli wrote: My understanding is that tanks will be only briefly OP. Then they will go vunerable. Which means you actually need to be smarter about AV and plant yourself at a point where you can blast a tank while it's on cooldown. That shouldn't be hard to do. If a team is organized and plans on the enemy AVer being in that juicy spot along the tanks patrol route then it isn't the tanks fault you can't settle in and camp. 1/5 of the match they will be tanks, the rest of the time theyl be scout suits. lol Closed Beta Vet Level 2 Forum Warrior "In my experience love doesnt exist, only cold, dark betrayal does."
KING CHECKMATE AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS 2194	Posted - 2013.10.31 04:59:00 - [123] - Quote Void Echo wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: Every time i get into an AV vs Tanker Thread i get the impression Spkr4theDead and Void echo are lovers.... They just cover their backs mutually so beautifully... :') lol I could see why people would think that. I don't care what he does and I don't associate with him. +1 for understanding the difference between a joke and an insult u+Élop s-¦ -Äll+Én-ç+ö+É
Godin Thekiller Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 1345	Posted - 2013.10.31 05:01:00 - [124] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Rusty Shallows wrote: True Adamance wrote: Justin Tymes wrote: [quote=Judge Rhadamanthus]snip Okay solo fine but your talking about a frigate trying to destroy a battle cruiser here. Its not that ***** easy. Bad analogy, in Eve cheap T1 gank ships take out one billion isk Marauders. CCP even drastically toned down a module that would have matched the ships market cost to its combat value. Admittedly you have to have a lot of them, T1 is *** unless you are using T2 guns. I was about to call you a *** idiot, then proceed to slap the ** out of you. T1 ships are baller. 'lights cigar' fuck with me, and I'll melt your face off. Gallente forever!
Void Echo Blades of Dust 2010	Posted - 2013.10.31 05:02:00 - [125] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: Void Echo wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: Every time i get into an AV vs Tanker Thread i get the impression Spkr4theDead and Void echo are lovers.... They just cover their backs mutually so beautifully... :') lol I could see why people would think that. I don't care what he does and I don't associate with him. +1 for understanding the difference between a joke and an insult there are lots of things nobody knows about me, and I wont reveal them on the internet either. Closed Beta Vet Level 2 Forum Warrior "In my experience love doesnt exist, only cold, dark betrayal does."
Pocket Rocket Girl Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 72	Posted - 2013.10.31 05:44:00 - [126] - Quote Void Echo wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Void Echo wrote: answer my question: why should I put all of my personal investment and skill into tanks when a heavy who has put so little investment into his would be far more efficient? what would be the point of skilling into something if another thing could do its job better at a much lower investment requirement? also, where would be the balance between "skill" and personal investment in this game when "skill would completely denounce logic when fighting far superior equipment? A heavy is not far more efficient at killing than a tank. The current state of heavies is laughable. Your second question does not make sense. I have a rough idea of what you're talking about though - Are you saying that if you have superior equipment you should be completely unkillable by inferior equipment? If so, then I disagree. Strenuously. This game already has enough problems with newbie stomping without it becoming literally impossible for newbies to compete. look at my post on this page. also that was an example. and btw heavies are more efficient than tanks are money wise. if im going against a full team of proto suits in only a militia suit, should I be able to wipe the floor with them? technally no but then again stick new players in said proto suits against people who have been playing for a long while in militia gear and guess what skill will over come equipment
Void Echo Blades of Dust 2010	Posted - 2013.10.31 05:47:00 - [127] - Quote Pocket Rocket Girl wrote: Void Echo wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Void Echo wrote: answer my question: why should I put all of my personal investment and skill into tanks when a heavy who has put so little investment into his would be far more efficient? what would be the point of skilling into something if another thing could do its job better at a much lower investment requirement? also, where would be the balance between "skill" and personal investment in this game when "skill would completely denounce logic when fighting far superior equipment? A heavy is not far more efficient at killing than a tank. The current state of heavies is laughable. Your second question does not make sense. I have a rough idea of what you're talking about though - Are you saying that if you have superior equipment you should be completely unkillable by inferior equipment? If so, then I disagree. Strenuously. This game already has enough problems with newbie stomping without it becoming literally impossible for newbies to compete. look at my post on this page. also that was an example. and btw heavies are more efficient than tanks are money wise. if im going against a full team of proto suits in only a militia suit, should I be able to wipe the floor with them? technally no but then again stick new players in said proto suits against people who have been playing for a long while in militia gear and guess what skill will over come equipment indeed... but my question is where do you put the balance between personal skill and personal investment. Closed Beta Vet Level 2 Forum Warrior "In my experience love doesnt exist, only cold, dark betrayal does."
INFINITE DIVERSITY IDIC Intara Direct Action Caldari State 110	Posted - 2013.10.31 05:58:00 - [128] - Quote Foxhound Elite wrote: I like to see people giving out about the upcoming changes to AV. You've had it coming, and stop complaining about how it's going to look about in the future vs. Tanks. I see nobodys saying 'but we won't have any way to fend off stomping dropship pilots' , ... it's because dropship pilots rarely get a chance to make any impact. Why, you say? Because it only takes one swarm launcher, one forge gunner or one rail installation user to remove the threat of even the most skilled of pilots from the battlefield. Stop your whining, you'll have together to take out vehicles, which is what it should be. Vehicle users spend more ISK and SP than you, in an open one vs one battle, they should always crush you. Only where you use your surroundings and fellow teammates to help, then you should overcome the vehicular opposition, unless they fail due to pilot error otherwise. I agree and disagree, I hate nerfs, I like buffs, that being said me running up on you and crashing my free lav into your 700,000 isk tank jumping out and busting you with 3 lai dai packed avs and 1 swarm shot and killing you is a bit ridiculous. Personally I think the tanks were fine, and so was the av, to me the problem was the cost of the vehicles, especially DROPSHIPS, they are stupidly overpriced for how flimsy they are. That being said ccp decided on changing both vehicles and av which I imagine will need more tweaking long in the future.
Pocket Rocket Girl Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 72	Posted - 2013.10.31 05:58:00 - [129] - Quote Void Echo wrote: Pocket Rocket Girl wrote: Void Echo wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Void Echo wrote: answer my question: why should I put all of my personal investment and skill into tanks when a heavy who has put so little investment into his would be far more efficient? what would be the point of skilling into something if another thing could do its job better at a much lower investment requirement? also, where would be the balance between "skill" and personal investment in this game when "skill would completely denounce logic when fighting far superior equipment? A heavy is not far more efficient at killing than a tank. The current state of heavies is laughable. Your second question does not make sense. I have a rough idea of what you're talking about though - Are you saying that if you have superior equipment you should be completely unkillable by inferior equipment? If so, then I disagree. Strenuously. This game already has enough problems with newbie stomping without it becoming literally impossible for newbies to compete. look at my post on this page. also that was an example. and btw heavies are more efficient than tanks are money wise. if im going against a full team of proto suits in only a militia suit, should I be able to wipe the floor with them? technally no but then again stick new players in said proto suits against people who have been playing for a long while in militia gear and guess what skill will over come equipment indeed... but my question is where do you put the balance between personal skill and personal investment. recently i have been doing nothing but using militia suits , every now and then ill switch to my av suit to go after a tank that is going unchecked 8/10 times i get killed before i get any where near the tank 1/10 ill be able to do some damage but the tank runs away 1/10 the tank just sits there untill its on fire and then starts to run but its too late already. Now with me using my militia gear suits i do perfectly fine, not amazing but i can hold my own. personal investment does indeed help but i believe that skill gets you farther
Void Echo Blades of Dust 2010	Posted - 2013.10.31 06:01:00 - [130] - Quote Pocket Rocket Girl wrote: Void Echo wrote: Pocket Rocket Girl wrote: Void Echo wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: A heavy is not far more efficient at killing than a tank. The current state of heavies is laughable. Your second question does not make sense. I have a rough idea of what you're talking about though - Are you saying that if you have superior equipment you should be completely unkillable by inferior equipment? If so, then I disagree. Strenuously. This game already has enough problems with newbie stomping without it becoming literally impossible for newbies to compete. look at my post on this page. also that was an example. and btw heavies are more efficient than tanks are money wise. if im going against a full team of proto suits in only a militia suit, should I be able to wipe the floor with them? technally no but then again stick new players in said proto suits against people who have been playing for a long while in militia gear and guess what skill will over come equipment indeed... but my question is where do you put the balance between personal skill and personal investment. recently i have been doing nothing but using militia suits , every now and then ill switch to my av suit to go after a tank that is going unchecked 8/10 times i get killed before i get any where near the tank 1/10 ill be able to do some damage but the tank runs away 1/10 the tank just sits there untill its on fire and then starts to run but its too late already. Now with me using my militia gear suits i do perfectly fine, not amazing but i can hold my own. personal investment does indeed help but i believe that skill gets you farther technically wont skill be considered personal investment Closed Beta Vet Level 2 Forum Warrior "In my experience love doesnt exist, only cold, dark betrayal does."

Ld Collins The Phalanx Inc 67	Posted - 2013.10.31 06:17:00 - [131] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: I have maxed my shield and armor skills my dropship or tank cannot gain any more resistance than it has 33.47% armor or shield + a hardener with the max reps. It doesnt take much from Av players to destroy me 1 protoswarm launcher is a problem for my tank/dropship now just imagine there are 3. 1 swarm launcher can fires the first hit you. You hear the explosions on you hull and immediatley after that you hear the second volley and then the 3rd. If you havent started repping after the second shot or you have repped previously from running from a second SL you are going to die. 2 Wikimori SL versus 1 armor tank a well fitted one at that could easily be destroyed and the poor souls who have shield tanks and run into that Assault Fg its hopeless.
Pocket Rocket Girl Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 72	Posted - 2013.10.31 06:17:00 - [132] - Quote Void Echo wrote: Pocket Rocket Girl wrote: Void Echo wrote: Pocket Rocket Girl wrote: Void Echo wrote: look at my post on this page. also that was an example. and btw heavies are more efficient than tanks are money wise. if im going against a full team of proto suits in only a militia suit, should I be able to wipe the floor with them? technally no but then again stick new players in said proto suits against people who have been playing for a long while in militia gear and guess what skill will over come equipment indeed... but my question is where do you put the balance between personal skill and personal investment. recently i have been doing nothing but using militia suits , every now and then ill switch to my av suit to go after a tank that is going unchecked 8/10 times i get killed before i get any where near the tank 1/10 ill be able to do some damage but the tank runs away 1/10 the tank just sits there untill its on fire and then starts to run but its too late already. Now with me using my militia gear suits i do perfectly fine, not amazing but i can hold my own. personal investment does indeed help but i believe that skill gets you farther technically wont skill be considered personal investment then if that is your point shouldn't your question be : where would you separate skill from personal investment ?: and if so it depends on your definition on personal investment some people think that spending time getting ISK or the people that invest time AFK farming. but does that require any skill?
Void Echo Blades of Dust 2010	Posted - 2013.10.31 06:28:00 - [133] - Quote Pocket Rocket Girl wrote: then if that is your point shouldn't your question be : where would you separate skill from personal investment ?: and if so it depends on your definition on personal investment some people think that spending time getting ISK or the people that invest time AFK farming. but does that require any skill? I would think that personal investment would have you able to use the equipment, your skill would be what you do with it. Closed Beta Vet Level 2 Forum Warrior "In my experience love doesnt exist, only cold, dark betrayal does."
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1159	Posted - 2013.10.31 11:06:00 - [134] - Quote Pocket Rocket Girl wrote: recently i have been doing nothing but using militia suits , every now and then ill switch to my av suit to go after a tank that is going unchecked 8/10 times i get killed before i get any where near the tank 1/10 ill be able to do some damage but the tank runs away 1/10 the tank just sits there untill its on fire and then starts to run but its too late already. Now with me using my militia gear suits i do perfectly fine, not amazing but i can hold my own. personal investment does indeed help but i believe that skill gets you farther. Why are you unnecessarily exposing yourself? Teamwork for thee, but no teamwork for me, such is the motto of the anti vehicle infantry.
Godin Thekiller Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 1347	Posted - 2013.10.31 19:45:00 - [135] - Quote Pent'noir wrote: Since the topic of isk has come up, I am a bit peeved that I seem to not get the largest chunk of isk for killing tanks. It is heavily split with wp and if I spent the entire match hunting vehicles, then I'm probably not getting that much wp. Same goes for the tanks killing me, i'd expect them to get the largest chunk of isk from my value. A recent match that played, I joined half way through, killed the 3 tanks destroying my team and only got 100k isk for my trouble (well it was actually pretty fun). I'd like a bigger cut of what I personally kill. I know many roles/situations have the same problem, but it would probably make av happier to keep a tank a bay for the match because they could get a chance at killing it for a large isk cut of its value. Honestly, it should go by directly of what you kill, not a average of the game. 'lights cigar' fuck with me, and I'll melt your face off. Gallente forever!
THUNDERGROOVE ZionTCD Public Disorder. 1205	Posted - 2013.10.31 20:17:00 - [136] - Quote Justin Tymes wrote: Yet another "X SP should mean superiority" thread. Save your SP > skill rant for when 1.7 comes out. AV requires no skill, anyone who can hold a controller can fire three volleys of swarms. What is a signature?
gbghg L.O.T.I.S. Public Disorder. 4004	Posted - 2013.10.31 20:44:00 - [137] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: True Adamance wrote: Just saying King... 1v1 Tanker vs AV- Tanker spends 10 Mill to get where they are at, AV spends 5 Mill...... 1vs 2 Tanker vs AVers- Tanker spends 10 Mill to get where they are at, AV spend, between them 10 Million. Balance of SP, ISK, and effort is equalised. Ok. 1st the problem is vehicle users think the only thing we have to level up is the weapon its proficiency and thats that. a GOOD AV fitting that is both capable of firing constantly vs vehicles AND does not need team support to survive (good vs 1 or 2 enemies at the time), has auto repairers that are effective and can ressuply its AV weapon on his own, Plus having enough stamina and speed to reach locations suitable for AV operation does not go below 8 mill. 2nd- AV weapons are to easy to use, this is correct. 3rd- So in good theory,if we INCREASE the SP needed to get to Proto AV and increase the learning curve of AV you would be happy for 1 on 1 vehicle vs AV? OF COURSE NOT. ..... Tankers (not YOU adamance ,you still have some sense in you...but overall)have repeatedly expressed their desires of roflstomping infantry without retaliation unless is a full 3-5 AV proto squad.... LOL so checkmate i see some issues in point 1, mainly that of hypocrisy. "a GOOD AV fitting that is both capable of firing constantly vs vehicles AND does not need team support to survive (good vs 1 or 2 enemies at the time)," so what i get from this is that an av fit should be a capable slayer along with being deadly agianst vehicles, that sounds like its breaking the rock/paper/scissors dynamic to me, something vehicle users are often accused of. AV infantry should have to rely on team support to adequately defend themselves, thats the trade off for effectiveness against vehicles. also char made 2 very good, sensible posts in this thread, i recommend everyone go read them. Lv 4 forum warrior Bringer of Bacon Knight of AMV's


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