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Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1159	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:15:00 - [61] - Quote CharCharOdell wrote: How about this: LIGHT AV weapons should be good at taking out light vehicles, but ineffective at taking out heavy vehicles, while heavy AV kills all vehicles relatively quickly. Doesn't that make sense? It makes too much sense, which is why infantry won't allow it. Teamwork for thee, but no teamwork for me, such is the motto of the anti vehicle infantry.
Mobius Wyvern Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 3773	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:15:00 - [62] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: By "you people" do you mean someone asking a simple question in a neutral way? You answered, aggressively, but there is an answer in there. Unfortunately this is really a product of the excessive vitriol found in AV/Vehicle threads - it tends to come from both sides and has lead to an 'us and them' mentality. Yeah, the hostility in these threads has grown to rival even that of the "AR vs (other weapon)" threads. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 555	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:16:00 - [63] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Okay solo fine but your talking about a frigate trying to destroy a battle cruiser here. Its not that ******* easy. We don't want it to be easy ... granted the weapon itself is easy to operate, but gaining the tactical advantage to engage for long enough is what takes skill ... but only against a skillful driver ... the ones that just role up in the middle of a field should expect to be annihilated for their stupidity. It's also pretty damn easy for a frigate to destroy a battle cruiser if the frigate has the tactical advantage.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 4466	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:16:00 - [64] - Quote Void Echo wrote: Needless Sacermendor wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: And he did say that. If a thing is not superior, then it has no properties that are greater than; then this means it is equal. A single property that is greater/superior would mean the whole is greater if no other properties are changed. Wrong ... you're definition is of something that is better ... something that is superior has every property better and is in another league and cannot be beaten by. A proto dropsuit with complex extenders n plates n proto weapons is not superior to a militia fitting ... because a militia fitting is capable of killing proto fittings. SP and ISK do not make you superior or replace skill ... what it does do is give you an advantage ... you can extend that advantage over all aspects of your fitting, but it will NEVER make you superior as skill can still defeat you. its a giant contradiction then, theres no way this would work in real life. Congratulations on attaining forum warrior level 2. Needless Sacermendor - I suppose if you define superior as that then yes, things should not be superior due to isk investment alone. I agree - skill should certainly allow lesser investments to defeat greater investments. It worries me that protosuits are so dominant in the infantry vs infantry area at the moment, but they can at least still be killed. Void Echo - Would you mind terribly clarifying what you think is contradicting itself? I'm a little baffled, and I would very much like to hear your feelings clearly on the matter. Level 4 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1159	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:16:00 - [65] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Justin Tymes wrote: Yet another "X SP should mean superiority" thread. Save your SP > skill rant for when 1.7 comes out. Your roll eyes emote and your 1 line dismissive response lies on-top of a confusing point. Your say that SP should not add value, i.e superior abilities or gear. If this is not the function of SP as you say then what do you think skill points should do? What are they for in your version of DUST? By your logic, and the OPs, when i have 20 millions SP (in about a week or two) and since i spent almost all of it in AV (Have everything proto) and suits and skills for using it, then, *NO VEHICLE USER UNDER 20mill SP should be able to survive one of my AV attacks?* Seems fun. TY It doesn't take 20 mil SP to use AV well. Not even close. Less than a million gets Aurum PRO AV. Teamwork for thee, but no teamwork for me, such is the motto of the anti vehicle infantry.
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1159	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:19:00 - [66] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: It doesn't take 20 mil SP to use AV well. Not even close. Well of course not, who said that>? not me for sure. But again thats not what we are talking about here godin. :3 You said you spent almost all of it into AV, so es you did. Its impossible spending 20 mill into AV. Remember ; the only way to harm vehicles is with 4 weapons. Which except plasma cannon i have all proto, and the suits with proto modules,proficiency ,etc... needed to fully run them. So you say you have almost 20 mil into AV, then say it's not possible to spend 20 mil in AV. So what is it? Teamwork for thee, but no teamwork for me, such is the motto of the anti vehicle infantry.
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 555	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:22:00 - [67] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: CharCharOdell wrote: How about this: LIGHT AV weapons should be good at taking out light vehicles, but ineffective at taking out heavy vehicles, while heavy AV kills all vehicles relatively quickly. Doesn't that make sense? It makes too much sense, which is why infantry won't allow it. I'll accept it when Heavies can stand toe to toe with the heaviest of vehicles and survive ... like they're supposed to according to the description. Good luck with your 5,000 hp heavy suits on the field though.
Void Echo Blades of Dust 2006	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:22:00 - [68] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Void Echo wrote: Needless Sacermendor wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: And he did say that. If a thing is not superior, then it has no properties that are greater than; then this means it is equal. A single property that is greater/superior would mean the whole is greater if no other properties are changed. Wrong ... you're definition is of something that is better ... something that is superior has every property better and is in another league and cannot be beaten by. A proto dropsuit with complex extenders n plates n proto weapons is not superior to a militia fitting ... because a militia fitting is capable of killing proto fittings. SP and ISK do not make you superior or replace skill ... what it does do is give you an advantage ... you can extend that advantage over all aspects of your fitting, but it will NEVER make you superior as skill can still defeat you. its a giant contradiction then, theres no way this would work in real life. Congratulations on attaining forum warrior level 2. Needless Sacermendor - I suppose if you define superior as that then yes, things should not be superior due to isk investment alone. I agree - skill should certainly allow lesser investments to defeat greater investments. It worries me that protosuits are so dominant in the infantry vs infantry area at the moment, but they can at least still be killed. Void Echo - Would you mind terribly clarifying what you think is contradicting itself? I'm a little baffled, and I would very much like to hear your feelings clearly on the matter. whats contradicting about it is that here personal investment is present and so is personal skill... by there reasoning personal investment should not mean anything when it comes to the game. by this standing they are saying that there is no point of me skilling into the gallente proto assault suit because according to them, the militia minmitar suit will be far more powerful because it requires no personal investment whatsoever and the gallente proto suit will be nearly worthless because it requires personal investment. basically punishing anyone attempting to put more into the game than they are. their argument is a giant contradiction. understand? Closed Beta Vet Level 2 Forum Warrior "In my experience love doesnt exist, only cold, dark betrayal does."
Meeko Fent expert intervention Caldari State 1345	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:25:00 - [69] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: By "you people" do you mean someone asking a simple question in a neutral way? You answered, aggressively, but there is an answer in there. Unfortunately this is really a product of the excessive vitriol found in AV/Vehicle threads - it tends to come from both sides and has lead to an 'us and them' mentality. Yeah, the hostility in these threads has grown to rival even that of the "AR vs (other weapon)" threads. Yup. No one can agree on what needs to be done. BTW, favorite sig EVER, one of my favorite quotes. Meeko's Novelty Shop Opening Soon! We (will)sell all the novelty items you desire! Really! King of Uncertainty.
Void Echo Blades of Dust 2006	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:26:00 - [70] - Quote Needless Sacermendor wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: CharCharOdell wrote: How about this: LIGHT AV weapons should be good at taking out light vehicles, but ineffective at taking out heavy vehicles, while heavy AV kills all vehicles relatively quickly. Doesn't that make sense? It makes too much sense, which is why infantry won't allow it. I'll accept it when Heavies can stand toe to toe with the heaviest of vehicles and survive ... like they're supposed to according to the description. Good luck with your 5,000 hp heavy suits on the field though. if heavies are able to stand toe to toe against vehicles, what purpose would there be to skill into vehicles at all when the heavy suit is just as good and requires a lot less personal investment that vehicles do. Closed Beta Vet Level 2 Forum Warrior "In my experience love doesnt exist, only cold, dark betrayal does."

nakaya indigene 0uter.Heaven Proficiency V. 92	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:27:00 - [71] - Quote Its not so much of the isk or sp being put into tanks and DS. Its more about when you are being dominated by AV theres nothing to fall back to. With most pub matches people proto stomp so militia just doesnt cut it. It makes a situation where vechile pilots might as well not play the game and thats bullshit.
Void Echo Blades of Dust 2006	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:31:00 - [72] - Quote nakaya indigene wrote: Its not so much of the isk or sp being put into tanks and DS. Its more about when you are being dominated by AV theres nothing to fall back to. With most pub matches people proto stomp so militia just doesnt cut it. It makes a situation where vechile pilots might as well not play the game and thats bullshit. indeed Closed Beta Vet Level 2 Forum Warrior "In my experience love doesnt exist, only cold, dark betrayal does."
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 4467	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:32:00 - [73] - Quote Void Echo wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Void Echo wrote: Needless Sacermendor wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: And he did say that. If a thing is not superior, then it has no properties that are greater than; then this means it is equal. A single property that is greater/superior would mean the whole is greater if no other properties are changed. Wrong ... you're definition is of something that is better ... something that is superior has every property better and is in another league and cannot be beaten by. A proto dropsuit with complex extenders n plates n proto weapons is not superior to a militia fitting ... because a militia fitting is capable of killing proto fittings. SP and ISK do not make you superior or replace skill ... what it does do is give you an advantage ... you can extend that advantage over all aspects of your fitting, but it will NEVER make you superior as skill can still defeat you. its a giant contradiction then, theres no way this would work in real life. Congratulations on attaining forum warrior level 2. Needless Sacermendor - I suppose if you define superior as that then yes, things should not be superior due to isk investment alone. I agree - skill should certainly allow lesser investments to defeat greater investments. It worries me that protosuits are so dominant in the infantry vs infantry area at the moment, but they can at least still be killed. Void Echo - Would you mind terribly clarifying what you think is contradicting itself? I'm a little baffled, and I would very much like to hear your feelings clearly on the matter. whats contradicting about it is that here personal investment is present and so is personal skill... by there reasoning personal investment should not mean anything when it comes to the game. by this standing they are saying that there is no point of me skilling into the gallente proto assault suit because according to them, the militia minmitar suit will be far more powerful because it requires no personal investment whatsoever and the gallente proto suit will be nearly worthless because it requires personal investment. basically punishing anyone attempting to put more into the game than they are. their argument is a giant contradiction. understand? I'm afraid I don't. Why can't they co-exist? Where SP acts as a force multiplier for skill, conferring a greater advantage? If skill is equal, then in your example the Gallente proto assault suit would beat the militia Minmatar suit handily, as a greater amount of ISK and SP is invested in the Gallente proto assault. If the Gallente proto assault has more skill, then the militia suit is still screwed. However, if the militia Minmatar suit has more skill than the Gallente proto assault, then it should be able to kill them. Can't a similar concept be applied to vehicles? Where investment rewards you, but you can still be outplayed? Level 4 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution
Dovallis Martan JenusKoll Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 299	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:33:00 - [74] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Justin Tymes wrote: Yet another "X SP should mean superiority" thread. Save your SP > skill rant for when 1.7 comes out. Your roll eyes emote and your 1 line dismissive response lies on-top of a confusing point. Your say that SP should not add value, i.e superior abilities or gear. If this is not the function of SP as you say then what do you think skill points should do? What are they for in your version of DUST? By your logic, and the OPs, when i have 20 millions SP (in about a week or two) and since i spent almost all of it in AV (Have everything proto) and suits and skills for using it, then, *NO VEHICLE USER UNDER 20mill SP should be able to survive one of my AV attacks?* Seems fun. TY The most you can put in any one AV tree is about 5.5mil... They don affect one another so you can't claim stacking SP. O.0 If you can read this, it means you are reading.
Justin Tymes Dem Durrty Boyz Public Disorder. 470	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:34:00 - [75] - Quote Void Echo wrote: Justin Tymes wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: I was not advocating one position or the other. I wanted to know what Justin, who thinks SP should not give an advantage, would see as the purpose and function of skill points. If skill points do give and advantage, the determination of the size of this advantage is the balance. If they give no advantage what then? It should give an advantage but that advantage must be relative with everything else in the game. I have about 15mill invested into making a complete Gallente Logistics suit right now. I should always be able to be solo'd, because that's the way Dust works. Tanks already have an advantage to being immune to most weapons, and have the ability to kill anything in seconds, if that. Which is fine but AV has to be your counter. 1 man should be able to solo another man regardless of the SP wall. 1 man should not be bending numerical advantage to his will, simply because he decided to bring a well-fit tank in play, that completely goes against skill. then that means that I wasted over 10 million SP to go into tanks when heavies are the better way to go since they are actually balanced versus other things. and by your logic, dust 514 should not exist because it puts personal investment on the same level as personal skill and you people don't like that. its completely fine for a single man to mow down an entire team inside a human sized heavy dropsuit because well... hes a heavy dropstuit with more hp than you all and he has a more powerful gun. but its wrong for a person to win against an entire team using a 50 ton vehicle sized weapon with a vehicle sized turret mounted on it because by your logic, his sp and isk investment is far greater than yours so he should be punished for being more into it than you are. The logic is that any and everyone should be able to be solo'd regardless of the SP wall or ISK costs. You analogy is bad because it's not rare at all for a heavy to be solo'd. This is completely different from not only requiring specific and limited weapons to kill you, but requiring multiple men to do it, and the number of Infantry needed is dependent on the class of your weapons. That's advantage manipulation period, and it goes against skill.
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 555	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:34:00 - [76] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Void Echo wrote: Needless Sacermendor wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: And he did say that. If a thing is not superior, then it has no properties that are greater than; then this means it is equal. A single property that is greater/superior would mean the whole is greater if no other properties are changed. Wrong ... you're definition is of something that is better ... something that is superior has every property better and is in another league and cannot be beaten by. A proto dropsuit with complex extenders n plates n proto weapons is not superior to a militia fitting ... because a militia fitting is capable of killing proto fittings. SP and ISK do not make you superior or replace skill ... what it does do is give you an advantage ... you can extend that advantage over all aspects of your fitting, but it will NEVER make you superior as skill can still defeat you. its a giant contradiction then, theres no way this would work in real life. Congratulations on attaining forum warrior level 2. Needless Sacermendor - I suppose if you define superior as that then yes, things should not be superior due to isk investment alone. I agree - skill should certainly allow lesser investments to defeat greater investments. It worries me that protosuits are so dominant in the infantry vs infantry area at the moment, but they can at least still be killed. Void Echo - Would you mind terribly clarifying what you think is contradicting itself? I'm a little baffled, and I would very much like to hear your feelings clearly on the matter. Yeah ... exactly what's being contradicted ? It does work in real life ... because there is very little that is superior in real life ... a Ferrari is a better race car than a Volvo, but a skilled driver in a volvo could likely beat your nan in a Ferrari round the Nubergring. The Ferrari is not superior than the Volvo if it can be beaten. If those cars had the ability to drive themselves ... then we'd have a different story ... but still the Volvo could get a weeks shopping in the boot, so the Ferrari is still not a superior car, it's just better at driving fast.
KING CHECKMATE AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS 2170	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:37:00 - [77] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Let me guess, you want your Duvolle to be able to destroy that 50mil ISK tank in less than two magazines? Funny that you mentioned taht. My AR operation is at 4 (for TACs an Burst). I dont have a Duvolle. u+Élop s-¦ -Äll+Én-ç+ö+É
Void Echo Blades of Dust 2006	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:38:00 - [78] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Void Echo wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Congratulations on attaining forum warrior level 2. Needless Sacermendor - I suppose if you define superior as that then yes, things should not be superior due to isk investment alone. I agree - skill should certainly allow lesser investments to defeat greater investments. It worries me that protosuits are so dominant in the infantry vs infantry area at the moment, but they can at least still be killed. Void Echo - Would you mind terribly clarifying what you think is contradicting itself? I'm a little baffled, and I would very much like to hear your feelings clearly on the matter. whats contradicting about it is that here personal investment is present and so is personal skill... by there reasoning personal investment should not mean anything when it comes to the game. by this standing they are saying that there is no point of me skilling into the gallente proto assault suit because according to them, the militia minmitar suit will be far more powerful because it requires no personal investment whatsoever and the gallente proto suit will be nearly worthless because it requires personal investment. basically punishing anyone attempting to put more into the game than they are. their argument is a giant contradiction. understand? I'm afraid I don't. Why can't they co-exist? Where SP acts as a force multiplier for skill, conferring a greater advantage? If skill is equal, then in your example the Gallente proto assault suit would beat the militia Minmatar suit handily, as a greater amount of ISK and SP is invested in the Gallente proto assault. If the Gallente proto assault has more skill, then the militia suit is still screwed. However, if the militia Minmatar suit has more skill than the Gallente proto assault, then it should be able to kill them. Can't a similar concept be applied to vehicles? Where investment rewards you, but you can still be outplayed? indeed, there has to be a balance, right now and for as long as I can remember, there is really no incentive to skill into tanks other than to have tank fights which rarely happen anymore. according to everyone else here though, your militia minmitar suit will always beat my proto gallente suit regardless if I put over 10x more investment into my suit than you did for yours. skill and personal investment should be considered on the same level and the same on some subjects, but people from call of duty, battle field and other games where they have never had to put their personal time and effort into anything reject the personal investment part of this game and demand that their militia suits be able to one shot everything that's bigger and more powerful then they are. I can see that the reason why this game is so terrible with the community is because this game is different and new... and people don't like new things, they want what theyv known for years without having to think. Closed Beta Vet Level 2 Forum Warrior "In my experience love doesnt exist, only cold, dark betrayal does."
Lorhak Gannarsein Science For Death The Shadow Eclipse 498	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:38:00 - [79] - Quote So... what exactly is the point of tanks, in the end? I drive the damn things and I've not a clue. What's their role? What are they supposed to be used for? How can you balance them if you don't know what FOR?
KING CHECKMATE AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS 2170	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:38:00 - [80] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: So you say you have almost 20 mil into AV, then say it's not possible to spend 20 mil in AV. So what is it? GÖªits impossible to spend 20 mill in AV weapons alone GÖªi have almost 20 mill spent in AV fittings. (Dropsuits for AV,Cx Modules,Nanohives,etc..) u+Élop s-¦ -Äll+Én-ç+ö+É

Void Echo Blades of Dust 2006	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:40:00 - [81] - Quote Justin Tymes wrote: Void Echo wrote: Justin Tymes wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: I was not advocating one position or the other. I wanted to know what Justin, who thinks SP should not give an advantage, would see as the purpose and function of skill points. If skill points do give and advantage, the determination of the size of this advantage is the balance. If they give no advantage what then? It should give an advantage but that advantage must be relative with everything else in the game. I have about 15mill invested into making a complete Gallente Logistics suit right now. I should always be able to be solo'd, because that's the way Dust works. Tanks already have an advantage to being immune to most weapons, and have the ability to kill anything in seconds, if that. Which is fine but AV has to be your counter. 1 man should be able to solo another man regardless of the SP wall. 1 man should not be bending numerical advantage to his will, simply because he decided to bring a well-fit tank in play, that completely goes against skill. then that means that I wasted over 10 million SP to go into tanks when heavies are the better way to go since they are actually balanced versus other things. and by your logic, dust 514 should not exist because it puts personal investment on the same level as personal skill and you people don't like that. its completely fine for a single man to mow down an entire team inside a human sized heavy dropsuit because well... hes a heavy dropstuit with more hp than you all and he has a more powerful gun. but its wrong for a person to win against an entire team using a 50 ton vehicle sized weapon with a vehicle sized turret mounted on it because by your logic, his sp and isk investment is far greater than yours so he should be punished for being more into it than you are. The logic is that any and everyone should be able to be solo'd regardless of the SP wall or ISK costs. You analogy is bad because it's not rare at all for a heavy to be solo'd. This is completely different from not only requiring specific and limited weapons to kill you, but requiring multiple men to do it, and the number of Infantry needed is dependent on the class of your weapons. That's advantage manipulation period, and it goes against skill. then refund my tank sp so I can put it into proto gallente assault, since by your logic, my gallente suit should one shot any tank with a scrambler pistol. in fact, refund all of my sp, because any militia dropsuit should be able to solo a giant massively superior tank. Closed Beta Vet Level 2 Forum Warrior "In my experience love doesnt exist, only cold, dark betrayal does."
Mortedeamor WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL The Ascendancy 554	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:41:00 - [82] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: Foxhound Elite wrote: I like to see people giving out about the upcoming changes to AV. You've had it coming, and stop complaining about how it's going to look about in the future vs. Tanks. I see nobodys saying 'but we won't have any way to fend off stomping dropship pilots' , ... it's because dropship pilots rarely get a chance to make any impact. Why, you say? Because it only takes one swarm launcher, one forge gunner or one rail installation user to remove the threat of even the most skilled of pilots from the battlefield. Stop your whining, you'll have together to take out vehicles, which is what it should be. Vehicle users spend more ISK and SP than you, in an open one vs one battle, they should always crush you. Only where you use your surroundings and fellow teammates to help, then you should overcome the vehicular opposition, unless they fail due to pilot error otherwise. Im not crying, im learning how to drive tanks.... BTW this: '' Vehicle users spend more ISK and SP than you, in an open one vs one battle, they should always crush you. '' Is the most stupid thing i've read. If this game ends up being: Better equipment > Skill IM LEAVING. I dont give a flying f*** if your tank costs 50 million isk, if im better i should be able to drop your butt. PERIOD. @ the end of the day, as you said, is 1 on 1 , you are just wearing a mechanical, more expensive suit.... A 1 on 1 battle that cannot be won no matter what , makes a game broken. meh idiot tankers will still be soloed by lone skilled avers' and said lone skilled avers can actually be proud of soloing a tank knowing that it requires skill and not just good gear as it is atm
Void Echo Blades of Dust 2006	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:42:00 - [83] - Quote Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: So... what exactly is the point of tanks, in the end? I drive the damn things and I've not a clue. What's their role? What are they supposed to be used for? How can you balance them if you don't know what FOR? according to the people currently posting, there is no point because suits should be more powerful than an entire planet, so tanks are a giant contradiction because they require tremendous personal investment for absolutely nothing. Closed Beta Vet Level 2 Forum Warrior "In my experience love doesnt exist, only cold, dark betrayal does."
Justin Tymes Dem Durrty Boyz Public Disorder. 470	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:45:00 - [84] - Quote Void Echo wrote: Justin Tymes wrote: Void Echo wrote: Justin Tymes wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: I was not advocating one position or the other. I wanted to know what Justin, who thinks SP should not give an advantage, would see as the purpose and function of skill points. If skill points do give and advantage, the determination of the size of this advantage is the balance. If they give no advantage what then? It should give an advantage but that advantage must be relative with everything else in the game. I have about 15mill invested into making a complete Gallente Logistics suit right now. I should always be able to be solo'd, because that's the way Dust works. Tanks already have an advantage to being immune to most weapons, and have the ability to kill anything in seconds, if that. Which is fine but AV has to be your counter. 1 man should be able to solo another man regardless of the SP wall. 1 man should not be bending numerical advantage to his will, simply because he decided to bring a well-fit tank in play, that completely goes against skill. then that means that I wasted over 10 million SP to go into tanks when heavies are the better way to go since they are actually balanced versus other things. and by your logic, dust 514 should not exist because it puts personal investment on the same level as personal skill and you people don't like that. its completely fine for a single man to mow down an entire team inside a human sized heavy dropsuit because well... hes a heavy dropstuit with more hp than you all and he has a more powerful gun. but its wrong for a person to win against an entire team using a 50 ton vehicle sized weapon with a vehicle sized turret mounted on it because by your logic, his sp and isk investment is far greater than yours so he should be punished for being more into it than you are. The logic is that any and everyone should be able to be solo'd regardless of the SP wall or ISK costs. You analogy is bad because it's not rare at all for a heavy to be solo'd. This is completely different from not only requiring specific and limited weapons to kill you, but requiring multiple men to do it, and the number of Infantry needed is dependent on the class of your weapons. That's advantage manipulation period, and it goes against skill. then refund my tank sp so I can put it into proto gallente assault, since by your logic, my gallente suit should one shot any tank with a scrambler pistol. I don't know where you got a Gallente suit with a scrambler pistol soloing a tank out of my my post, but I'm done.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 4469	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:52:00 - [85] - Quote Void Echo wrote: Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: So... what exactly is the point of tanks, in the end? I drive the damn things and I've not a clue. What's their role? What are they supposed to be used for? How can you balance them if you don't know what FOR? according to the people currently posting, there is no point because suits should be more powerful than an entire planet, so tanks are a giant contradiction because they require tremendous personal investment for absolutely nothing. I wish it wouldn't come to this every time there's a discussion about this topic. No. For the fourth time - Investment should give an advantage, but it shouldn't mean that you automatically win against anything of lower investment. Level 4 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 555	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:53:00 - [86] - Quote Void Echo wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Void Echo wrote: Needless Sacermendor wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: And he did say that. If a thing is not superior, then it has no properties that are greater than; then this means it is equal. A single property that is greater/superior would mean the whole is greater if no other properties are changed. Wrong ... you're definition is of something that is better ... something that is superior has every property better and is in another league and cannot be beaten by. A proto dropsuit with complex extenders n plates n proto weapons is not superior to a militia fitting ... because a militia fitting is capable of killing proto fittings. SP and ISK do not make you superior or replace skill ... what it does do is give you an advantage ... you can extend that advantage over all aspects of your fitting, but it will NEVER make you superior as skill can still defeat you. its a giant contradiction then, theres no way this would work in real life. Congratulations on attaining forum warrior level 2. Needless Sacermendor - I suppose if you define superior as that then yes, things should not be superior due to isk investment alone. I agree - skill should certainly allow lesser investments to defeat greater investments. It worries me that protosuits are so dominant in the infantry vs infantry area at the moment, but they can at least still be killed. Void Echo - Would you mind terribly clarifying what you think is contradicting itself? I'm a little baffled, and I would very much like to hear your feelings clearly on the matter. whats contradicting about it is that here personal investment is present and so is personal skill... by there reasoning personal investment should not mean anything when it comes to the game. by this standing they are saying that there is no point of me skilling into the gallente proto assault suit because according to them, the militia minmitar suit will be far more powerful because it requires no personal investment whatsoever and the gallente proto suit will be nearly worthless because it requires personal investment. basically punishing anyone attempting to put more into the game than they are. their argument is a giant contradiction. understand? If you're skilling into that Gallente proto Assault suit because you have no skill or because you expect it to be unbeatable then I can tell you now, there's really no point skilling into it. Personal skill is still present in people with low SP and so are tactical advantages ... both of which should trump your proto assault suit even if the difference is 100x the SP investment ... especially if you have no personal skill. On the other hand, as is generally the case, someone with personal skill and tactical advantage and proto level fittings would be superior. Is that simples enough for you ?
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 555	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:57:00 - [87] - Quote I think Void Echo skipped debating 101 class !
Cody Sietz Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 1317	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:59:00 - [88] - Quote I can verify the Gallente proto Assault statement xD
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 556	Posted - 2013.10.31 00:06:00 - [89] - Quote Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: So... what exactly is the point of tanks, in the end? I drive the damn things and I've not a clue. What's their role? What are they supposed to be used for? How can you balance them if you don't know what FOR? They're supposed to scare infantry ... they do it so well in fact that many infantry adapt and skill into AV weapons to counter them. It's a lot like when calogis were running round with massive shields and everyone quickly started carrying fluxes (cos lazers had been nerfed to oblivion). The problem is that those that decided they wanted the security of 7 inches of steel wrapped around them, suddenly realised they had no adaptation of their own since they skilled into something so specialised and conspicuous and they had no dropsuit skills to fall back on to counter what had been deployed to counter their assets.
Void Echo Blades of Dust 2006	Posted - 2013.10.31 00:07:00 - [90] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Void Echo wrote: Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: So... what exactly is the point of tanks, in the end? I drive the damn things and I've not a clue. What's their role? What are they supposed to be used for? How can you balance them if you don't know what FOR? according to the people currently posting, there is no point because suits should be more powerful than an entire planet, so tanks are a giant contradiction because they require tremendous personal investment for absolutely nothing. I wish it wouldn't come to this every time there's a discussion about this topic. No. For the fourth time - Investment should give an advantage, but it shouldn't mean that you automatically win against anything of lower investment. I wish that were how everyone else thought Closed Beta Vet Level 2 Forum Warrior "In my experience love doesnt exist, only cold, dark betrayal does."



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