I was not advocating one position or the other. I wanted to know what Justin, who thinks SP should not give an advantage, would see as the purpose and function of skill points.

If skill points do give and advantage, the determination of the size of this advantage is the balance. If they give no advantage what then?

You fly EVE side though Arkena you know how much SP and ISK give in terms of advantages. Why should Dust be any different?

Admittedly this is a new format for a competitive FPS.... which without SP does not feel all that competitive.

He didn't say it shouldn't give an advantage ... he said it shouldn't give superiority or be greater than skill ... try reading properly.

Your roll eyes emote and your 1 line dismissive response lies on-top of a confusing point. Your say that SP should not add value, i.e superior abilities or gear. If this is not the function of SP as you say then what do you think skill points should do? What are they for in your version of DUST?

Also to beat this horse some more, since no one listened in closed beta.

Swarm = forget and fire scrub weapon that would be frustrating to know end as a vehicle driver. (9/10 times this same person uses the AR hmmm)

Forge = have to aim with direct sight, has enough drawbacks that the vehicle driver can counter (can't tell you how many mexican standoffs i've had with a vehicle trying to line up that final shot and getting evaporated by a rail tank, that is how its supposed to work and is actually fun)

Back in june of 2012 the nerfs on the HMG started, I predicted that you will lose your Heavy's and in the end lose the best and fairest (yes even fair to the pilot/driver) AV.

Segue to the end of 2013 HMG heavy's are like unicorns and instead the FG is used on infantry, vehicle drivers get nothing but swarm spam and can't move. You got what you asked for when every scrub complained they couldn't toe to toe with an HMG and their AR. The specialist moved on and you're stuck with this. You cannot entertain the discussion of vehicles and AV without talking about the HEAVY and its purpose, you dicked with the HMG and tied the Heavy specialist hand behind there back to point they gave up please continue this trend its really working out well for everyone. In the end I see everyone running around with Medium frame suits and AR/Swarm regardless if they are behind the wheel or on the ground the TTK in either situation will be .02 seconds and this game dies like a fart in a hurricane.

Oh great. Void is here. Abandon thread, useless posts incoming....





@Godin: Yeah i know what you are saying and i agree with you, bu i use Lai dai Grenades, Wyrikomi Swarms launchers and Ishikune/Kaalakiota Forge guns, sometimes (depending on the map) I canot effectivley destroy a tank,because he was very fast or the map helped him with cover, so he can attack ,leave,repair,rinse and repeat, and i can spend a whole match just damaging him and at the end of the match i'll get mayed 0 WP for spending all match pushing him back AND if a change my suit,the tank will come and ravage my team ,because exagerations appart, MLT/STD weaponry is crap vs good tanks...

Now do i solo tanks? Sure, any epxerienced AV can solo tanks. with the right positioning and SOME form of backup its doable.
For tankers to tell me i shouldnt be able to SOLO MLT tanks with my 180k Proto AV dropsuit is just madness....

Lets take a hypothetical :

A tank and a Swarm launcher face each other in a field. What determines who wins? Is it fair that the one with more SP and ISK investment has a higher chance when skill is not considered to win? If not then what incentive do people have to earn SP and spend ISK?

Does it feel fun, and fair that 120k can kill 2.5 million ISK as easily as 2.5 can kill 120k?
Is it fun to know you cannot even dent 2.5million with 120k?

Oh great. Void is here. Abandon thread, useless posts incoming....





@Godin: Yeah i know what you are saying and i agree with you, bu i use Lai dai Grenades, Wyrikomi Swarms launchers and Ishikune/Kaalakiota Forge guns, sometimes (depending on the map) I canot effectivley destroy a tank,because he was very fast or the map helped him with cover, so he can attack ,leave,repair,rinse and repeat, and i can spend a whole match just damaging him and at the end of the match i'll get mayed 0 WP for spending all match pushing him back AND if a change my suit,the tank will come and ravage my team ,because exagerations appart, MLT/STD weaponry is crap vs good tanks...

Now do i solo tanks? Sure, any epxerienced AV can solo tanks. with the right positioning and SOME form of backup its doable.
For tankers to tell me i shouldnt be able to SOLO MLT tanks with my 180k Proto AV dropsuit is just madness....

1v1 Tanker vs AV- Tanker spends 10 Mill to get where they are at, AV spends 5 Mill......

1vs 2 Tanker vs AVers- Tanker spends 10 Mill to get where they are at, AV spend, between them 10 Million. Balance of SP, ISK, and effort is equalised.

Where skill is not a factor, the one with the higher ISK and SP investment should win. However, skill should be a factor.

As for your two questions:
1. No.
2. No.

What are your thoughts on reducing the price gap? That way vehicles aren't massively frustrating to lose or to face.

I was not advocating one position or the other. I wanted to know what Justin, who thinks SP should not give an advantage, would see as the purpose and function of skill points.

If skill points do give and advantage, the determination of the size of this advantage is the balance. If they give no advantage what then?

Honestly, both sides need to relax. CCP is rescaling everything while limiting the how dominant both sides are going to be by making it harder for each side to kill each other and making vehicles more accessible to new players.

It should give an advantage but that advantage must be relative with everything else in the game. I have about 15mill invested into making a complete Gallente Logistics suit right now. I should always be able to be solo'd, because that's the way Dust works.

Tanks already have an advantage to being immune to most weapons, and have the ability to kill anything in seconds, if that. Which is fine but AV has to be your counter. 1 man should be able to solo another man regardless of the SP wall. 1 man should not be bending numerical advantage to his will, simply because he decided to bring a well-fit tank in play, that completely goes against skill.

then again, should skill increase the odds of the investment anyway? if no then why bother trying to skill into gallente proto assault when militia minmitar will be more powerful?

Your roll eyes emote and your 1 line dismissive response lies on-top of a confusing point. Your say that SP should not add value, i.e superior abilities or gear. If this is not the function of SP as you say then what do you think skill points should do? What are they for in your version of DUST?

Lets take a hypothetical :

A tank and a Swarm launcher face each other in a field. What determines who wins? Is it fair that the one with more SP and ISK investment has a higher chance when skill is not considered to win? If not then what incentive do people have to earn SP and spend ISK?

Does it feel fun, and fair that 120k can kill 2.5 million ISK as easily as 2.5 can kill 120k?
Is it fun to know you cannot even dent 2.5million with 120k?

It should give an advantage but that advantage must be relative with everything else in the game. I have about 15mill invested into making a complete Gallente Logistics suit right now. I should always be able to be solo'd, because that's the way Dust works.

Tanks already have an advantage to being immune to most weapons, and have the ability to kill anything in seconds, if that. Which is fine but AV has to be your counter. 1 man should be able to solo another man regardless of the SP wall. 1 man should not be bending numerical advantage to his will, simply because he decided to bring a well-fit tank in play, that completely goes against skill.

Okay solo fine but your talking about a frigate trying to destroy a battle cruiser here.

Its not that ******* easy.

Your hypothetical is dumb ... you can't not consider skill ... a HAV and a Swarm user face each other in a field, even if the swarm is on a proto Heavy suit stacked with as much ehp as possible and the HAV is a militia hull with a militia turret it will be dead before the first volley of swarms leaves the launcher, whether the HAV is fitted with blasters, missiles or rails (maybe not missiles these days).

IF you people had your way (which is what we seem to be aiming towards) the ONLY incentive to earn SP and ISK would be to invest in HAVs so you could be competitive.

By "you people" do you mean someone asking a simple question in a neutral way? You answered, aggressively, but there is an answer in there.

And he did say that. If a thing is not superior, then it has no properties that are greater than; then this means it is equal. A single property that is greater/superior would mean the whole is greater if no other properties are changed.

Wrong ... you're definition is of something that is better ... something that is superior has every property better and is in another league and cannot be beaten by.

A proto dropsuit with complex extenders n plates n proto weapons is not superior to a militia fitting ... because a militia fitting is capable of killing proto fittings.

SP and ISK do not make you superior or replace skill ... what it does do is give you an advantage ... you can extend that advantage over all aspects of your fitting, but it will NEVER make you superior as skill can still defeat you.

I like to see people giving out about the upcoming changes to AV. You've had it coming, and stop complaining about how it's going to look about in the future vs. Tanks. I see nobodys saying 'but we won't have any way to fend off stomping dropship pilots' , ... it's because dropship pilots rarely get a chance to make any impact. Why, you say? Because it only takes one swarm launcher, one forge gunner or one rail installation user to remove the threat of even the most skilled of pilots from the battlefield.
Stop your whining, you'll have together to take out vehicles, which is what it should be. Vehicle users spend more ISK and SP than you, in an open one vs one battle, they should always crush you. Only where you use your surroundings and fellow teammates to help, then you should overcome the vehicular opposition, unless they fail due to pilot error otherwise.

Im not crying, im learning how to drive tanks....

BTW this: '' Vehicle users spend more ISK and SP than you, in an open one vs one battle, they should always crush you. ''

Is the most stupid thing i've read. If this game ends up being: Better equipment > Skill
IM LEAVING.

I dont give a flying f*** if your tank costs 50 million isk, if im better i should be able to drop your butt. PERIOD.
@ the end of the day, as you said, is 1 on 1 , you are just wearing a mechanical, more expensive suit....
A 1 on 1 battle that cannot be won no matter what , makes a game broken.