DUST Search - AV Users, stop crying, you've had your fun.

Void Echo wrote:

Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:

Void Echo wrote:

Needless Sacermendor wrote:

Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:

And he did say that. If a thing is not superior, then it has no properties that are greater than; then this means it is equal. A single property that is greater/superior would mean the whole is greater if no other properties are changed.

Wrong ... you're definition is of something that is better ... something that is superior has every property better and is in another league and cannot be beaten by.

A proto dropsuit with complex extenders n plates n proto weapons is not superior to a militia fitting ... because a militia fitting is capable of killing proto fittings.

SP and ISK do not make you superior or replace skill ... what it does do is give you an advantage ... you can extend that advantage over all aspects of your fitting, but it will NEVER make you superior as skill can still defeat you.

its a giant contradiction then, theres no way this would work in real life.

Congratulations on attaining forum warrior level 2.

Needless Sacermendor - I suppose if you define superior as that then yes, things should not be superior due to isk investment alone. I agree - skill should certainly allow lesser investments to defeat greater investments. It worries me that protosuits are so dominant in the infantry vs infantry area at the moment, but they can at least still be killed.

Void Echo - Would you mind terribly clarifying what you think is contradicting itself? I'm a little baffled, and I would very much like to hear your feelings clearly on the matter.

whats contradicting about it is that here personal investment is present and so is personal skill... by there reasoning personal investment should not mean anything when it comes to the game.

by this standing they are saying that there is no point of me skilling into the gallente proto assault suit because according to them, the militia minmitar suit will be far more powerful because it requires no personal investment whatsoever and the gallente proto suit will be nearly worthless because it requires personal investment. basically punishing anyone attempting to put more into the game than they are.

their argument is a giant contradiction. understand?


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Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 555	Posted - 2013.10.30 22:36:00 - [1] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: I was not advocating one position or the other. I wanted to know what Justin, who thinks SP should not give an advantage, would see as the purpose and function of skill points. If skill points do give and advantage, the determination of the size of this advantage is the balance. If they give no advantage what then? He didn't say it shouldn't give an advantage ... he said it shouldn't give superiority or be greater than skill ... try reading properly.
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 555	Posted - 2013.10.30 22:57:00 - [2] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Lets take a hypothetical : A tank and a Swarm launcher face each other in a field. What determines who wins? Is it fair that the one with more SP and ISK investment has a higher chance when skill is not considered to win? If not then what incentive do people have to earn SP and spend ISK? Does it feel fun, and fair that 120k can kill 2.5 million ISK as easily as 2.5 can kill 120k? Is it fun to know you cannot even dent 2.5million with 120k? Your hypothetical is dumb ... you can't not consider skill ... a HAV and a Swarm user face each other in a field, even if the swarm is on a proto Heavy suit stacked with as much ehp as possible and the HAV is a militia hull with a militia turret it will be dead before the first volley of swarms leaves the launcher, whether the HAV is fitted with blasters, missiles or rails (maybe not missiles these days). IF you people had your way (which is what we seem to be aiming towards) the ONLY incentive to earn SP and ISK would be to invest in HAVs so you could be competitive.
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 555	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:08:00 - [3] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: And he did say that. If a thing is not superior, then it has no properties that are greater than; then this means it is equal. A single property that is greater/superior would mean the whole is greater if no other properties are changed. Wrong ... you're definition is of something that is better ... something that is superior has every property better and is in another league and cannot be beaten by. A proto dropsuit with complex extenders n plates n proto weapons is not superior to a militia fitting ... because a militia fitting is capable of killing proto fittings. SP and ISK do not make you superior or replace skill ... what it does do is give you an advantage ... you can extend that advantage over all aspects of your fitting, but it will NEVER make you superior as skill can still defeat you.
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 555	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:16:00 - [4] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Okay solo fine but your talking about a frigate trying to destroy a battle cruiser here. Its not that ******* easy. We don't want it to be easy ... granted the weapon itself is easy to operate, but gaining the tactical advantage to engage for long enough is what takes skill ... but only against a skillful driver ... the ones that just role up in the middle of a field should expect to be annihilated for their stupidity. It's also pretty damn easy for a frigate to destroy a battle cruiser if the frigate has the tactical advantage.
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 555	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:22:00 - [5] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: CharCharOdell wrote: How about this: LIGHT AV weapons should be good at taking out light vehicles, but ineffective at taking out heavy vehicles, while heavy AV kills all vehicles relatively quickly. Doesn't that make sense? It makes too much sense, which is why infantry won't allow it. I'll accept it when Heavies can stand toe to toe with the heaviest of vehicles and survive ... like they're supposed to according to the description. Good luck with your 5,000 hp heavy suits on the field though.
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 555	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:34:00 - [6] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Void Echo wrote: Needless Sacermendor wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: And he did say that. If a thing is not superior, then it has no properties that are greater than; then this means it is equal. A single property that is greater/superior would mean the whole is greater if no other properties are changed. Wrong ... you're definition is of something that is better ... something that is superior has every property better and is in another league and cannot be beaten by. A proto dropsuit with complex extenders n plates n proto weapons is not superior to a militia fitting ... because a militia fitting is capable of killing proto fittings. SP and ISK do not make you superior or replace skill ... what it does do is give you an advantage ... you can extend that advantage over all aspects of your fitting, but it will NEVER make you superior as skill can still defeat you. its a giant contradiction then, theres no way this would work in real life. Congratulations on attaining forum warrior level 2. Needless Sacermendor - I suppose if you define superior as that then yes, things should not be superior due to isk investment alone. I agree - skill should certainly allow lesser investments to defeat greater investments. It worries me that protosuits are so dominant in the infantry vs infantry area at the moment, but they can at least still be killed. Void Echo - Would you mind terribly clarifying what you think is contradicting itself? I'm a little baffled, and I would very much like to hear your feelings clearly on the matter. Yeah ... exactly what's being contradicted ? It does work in real life ... because there is very little that is superior in real life ... a Ferrari is a better race car than a Volvo, but a skilled driver in a volvo could likely beat your nan in a Ferrari round the Nubergring. The Ferrari is not superior than the Volvo if it can be beaten. If those cars had the ability to drive themselves ... then we'd have a different story ... but still the Volvo could get a weeks shopping in the boot, so the Ferrari is still not a superior car, it's just better at driving fast.
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 555	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:53:00 - [7] - Quote Void Echo wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Void Echo wrote: Needless Sacermendor wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: And he did say that. If a thing is not superior, then it has no properties that are greater than; then this means it is equal. A single property that is greater/superior would mean the whole is greater if no other properties are changed. Wrong ... you're definition is of something that is better ... something that is superior has every property better and is in another league and cannot be beaten by. A proto dropsuit with complex extenders n plates n proto weapons is not superior to a militia fitting ... because a militia fitting is capable of killing proto fittings. SP and ISK do not make you superior or replace skill ... what it does do is give you an advantage ... you can extend that advantage over all aspects of your fitting, but it will NEVER make you superior as skill can still defeat you. its a giant contradiction then, theres no way this would work in real life. Congratulations on attaining forum warrior level 2. Needless Sacermendor - I suppose if you define superior as that then yes, things should not be superior due to isk investment alone. I agree - skill should certainly allow lesser investments to defeat greater investments. It worries me that protosuits are so dominant in the infantry vs infantry area at the moment, but they can at least still be killed. Void Echo - Would you mind terribly clarifying what you think is contradicting itself? I'm a little baffled, and I would very much like to hear your feelings clearly on the matter. whats contradicting about it is that here personal investment is present and so is personal skill... by there reasoning personal investment should not mean anything when it comes to the game. by this standing they are saying that there is no point of me skilling into the gallente proto assault suit because according to them, the militia minmitar suit will be far more powerful because it requires no personal investment whatsoever and the gallente proto suit will be nearly worthless because it requires personal investment. basically punishing anyone attempting to put more into the game than they are. their argument is a giant contradiction. understand? If you're skilling into that Gallente proto Assault suit because you have no skill or because you expect it to be unbeatable then I can tell you now, there's really no point skilling into it. Personal skill is still present in people with low SP and so are tactical advantages ... both of which should trump your proto assault suit even if the difference is 100x the SP investment ... especially if you have no personal skill. On the other hand, as is generally the case, someone with personal skill and tactical advantage and proto level fittings would be superior. Is that simples enough for you ?
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 555	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:57:00 - [8] - Quote I think Void Echo skipped debating 101 class !
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 556	Posted - 2013.10.31 00:06:00 - [9] - Quote Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: So... what exactly is the point of tanks, in the end? I drive the damn things and I've not a clue. What's their role? What are they supposed to be used for? How can you balance them if you don't know what FOR? They're supposed to scare infantry ... they do it so well in fact that many infantry adapt and skill into AV weapons to counter them. It's a lot like when calogis were running round with massive shields and everyone quickly started carrying fluxes (cos lazers had been nerfed to oblivion). The problem is that those that decided they wanted the security of 7 inches of steel wrapped around them, suddenly realised they had no adaptation of their own since they skilled into something so specialised and conspicuous and they had no dropsuit skills to fall back on to counter what had been deployed to counter their assets.
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 556	Posted - 2013.10.31 00:27:00 - [10] - Quote Void ... seriously give it a rest ... you're making a fool of yourself arguing points people haven't even made. Come back when you've learnt a little reading comprehension. You're hung up on my quoting of the Heavy dropsuit description in game which says it should be able to stand toe to toe with the heaviest of vehicles (or something similar) ... when that statement was in reply to someone saying that light AV should only be useful against light vehicles ... a dumb statement since we only have LAVs currently that are light vehicles. I said fine, so long as Heavies fit their description. Now take a minute to read through ANYTHING else I've written in this thread ... and tell me again, even quote me saying anything about unskilled low sp people being at an advantage against skilled proto users UNLESS they have a tactical advantage, like you're on your own in a bunker calling in an orbital or looking at the map and they walk in on you. Surely even you can manage to comprehend that from everything I've posted here.

Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 556	Posted - 2013.10.31 00:29:00 - [11] - Quote Void Echo wrote: technically that's not true, im a vet tanker with over 10 million SP in tanks yet I am adaptable and can survive outside of my tank. I also have sp into gallente assault, I make your statement invalid. Yes ... you are special ... you make a lot of statements invalid ... particularly the one about 'Common' sense.