DUST Search - Announcement:Factional Contract Changes Introduction

DS 10 wrote:

Hopefully the whole Team Kill thing gets sorted out. I know griefing is a major issue that needs to be policed well, but right now, the punishment doesn't fit the crime. The way it is now is like getting 20 years for stealing an apple. There are multiple things you can do to punish TKers without ruining the gametype for them. If you look up the stats for PC matches, you'll see that TKs are pretty common, and that's in organized squads with solid communication. Now you're going to throw randoms in the mix and expect us to kill LESS friendlies by accident? Here are a few of my ideas.

1) A Match Limit - Set a limit (3-4) for each match. If you hit this limit, you are kicked from the game. No payout. No ISK gained. Counts as a loss in standing.

2) Weekly Limit - You can have this either be a number like 30 per week, or you can pair it to a match limit. For example, if you get booted from 10 games in a week, you lose the ability to play FW for 2 days. It's not an excessive penalty at all, but it would still be effective. Throw on a cap of how many weeks in a certain amount of weeks you get suspensions, say 3 weeks out of 6, you lose FW for even longer.

3) Charge ISK/LP for Team Kills - At the end of the day, the game is SUPPOSED to be about ISK. Make the match summary show your potential ISK/LP gain, then subtract for TK's, much like the taxes show now.

Right now, the penalties are entirely too severe. When you add the randomness of idiot blueberries, you shouldn't ruin the gametype for those who play hard. The penalties are going to cause players to stay away from hot spots and play more conservatively for fear of losing the gametype. That's not what you want.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 14 post(s)
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 2608	Posted - 2013.10.18 20:05:00 - [61] - Quote Shotty GoBang wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: Shotty GoBang wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: ... cite your sources. Not sure if Ghost's recent post/idea is original or not, but it bears some similarity: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1374939 Not even close. Makes sense. Looks like this change has been in the works for awhile. Regardless, this all sounds like alot of fun. It'd be stinking awesome if we could "legitimately" participate with multiple squads rather than trying one's luck with a queue sync. The last FW challenge demonstrated -- quite abysmally -- the impact of bluedot sabotage and inactivity. Are you really that nieve? We're talking about ideas that have been ignored for over a year.
Mavado V Noriega SyNergy Gaming EoN. 4338	Posted - 2013.10.18 20:06:00 - [62] - Quote cSRT4 wrote: I am so excited that team killing will be turned on! I can hardly stand the wait!!! I am gonna blow up so many [team] tanks, you don't even know. For you idiot tankers out there, just remember my name ("cSRT4") and know you WILL be losing a tank if you blow up a ******* supply depot and I know it was you. Just letting you know ahead of time so you don't QQ later. Just know it and accept it cause it's gonna happen. (I call it the Kobe theory.) God damn. That's about the best news I've read in a very long time. as a tanker i can tell u we blow up supply depots because our infantry is incapable of securing it and instead the enemy sits there farming ammo to launch swarms and fg shots at us, sorry but u cannot be mad at tankers for blowing up depots if the infantry on his team dont go to secure it Tanks cost alot more than your suit so to stay alive if it means destorying it then i agree tankers should get rid of it same as CRUs again if infantry cant secure the CRUs then blow it up. Infantry can get ammo via a nanohive anyway
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 3998	Posted - 2013.10.18 20:10:00 - [63] - Quote CCP FoxFour wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: CCP Nullarbor wrote: So while we are already under way implementing the core of these changes, a lot of the specifics are still up for debate so we want to hear concise and reasoned feedback on everything. Please take the time to chew on this for a bit, ask questions if it's not clear then let us know where we might run into problems and why. Looking forward to hearing all the comments. Cheers. If all someone is doing is playing FW and not getting any ISK, all they're going to do is hemorrhage ISK, but they'll have loyalty points. What exactly could you get with LP? Would I be able to replace a full tank with LP? Not at this time, once the secondary market is in and you can sell your LP items for ISK then yes. That's frankly awful. Essentially, it's completely impossible to make isk off FW in this iteration and people genuinely interested in fighting for their factions can only lose isk whilst doing so. Is it your intention to make it so that FW players lose isk every time they play a match? The reward is very limited given that few factions can fully fit out their suits with just their LP items (which require isk to get anyway, so that exacerbates the problem).
steadyhand amarr MoIden Heath PoIice Department EoN. 1600	Posted - 2013.10.18 20:12:00 - [64] - Quote late to party but OMG THIS LOOKS AWESOME!!!
cSRT4 SyNergy Gaming EoN. 32	Posted - 2013.10.18 20:32:00 - [65] - Quote Mavado V Noriega wrote: cSRT4 wrote: I am so excited that team killing will be turned on! I can hardly stand the wait!!! I am gonna blow up so many [team] tanks, you don't even know. For you idiot tankers out there, just remember my name ("cSRT4") and know you WILL be losing a tank if you blow up a ***** supply depot and I know it was you. Just letting you know ahead of time so you don't QQ later. Just know it and accept it cause it's gonna happen. (I call it the Kobe theory.) God damn. That's about the best news I've read in a very long time. as a tanker i can tell u we blow up supply depots because our infantry is incapable of securing it and instead the enemy sits there farming ammo to launch swarms and fg shots at us, sorry but u cannot be mad at tankers for blowing up depots if the infantry on his team dont go to secure it Tanks cost alot more than your suit so to stay alive if it means destorying it then i agree tankers should get rid of it same as CRUs again if infantry cant secure the CRUs then blow it up. Infantry can get ammo via a nanohive anyway You, sir, are correct. HOWEVER, 95-99% of the time (probably more), it's douchebag, idiotic tankers. This does not count when, let's describe a situation... 4 letter map; 2 letters inside compound and 2 outside. Our team has the 2 letters inside and the red dots have the 2 outside letters. The red dots have all but given up taking the letters inside the compound. So, our squad decides it's time to go secure a letter outside. We get there and find everything blown up (CRU, Blaster Installations, AND SUPPLY DEPOT). <-- DON'T PUT YOUR TANK AT RISK BY GOING AROUND WITHOUT PROPER SUPPORT, THUS LEADING YOU TO "HAVE TO" BLOW UP THE SUPPLY DEPOT! That's the I'm talking about. If, we're red-lined and you wanna put your tank out there to get blown up by the blood-thirsty red dots and blow up their Supply Depot, good on ya and good luck. As you see my point here, there is almost never a reason to blow up a supply depot. Red-line is about the only way I see it in my head right now as justifiable but you're going to get your tank blown up anyway so I guess now looking at it, you blow up a supply depot, your tank is going to be incinerated; me or red dots. Also, if a map has multiple Supply Depots (NOT THE ONES THAT ARE AT OUR SPAWN POINT), enjoy your 50pts and blow up ONE. ONE! ... maybe. 5-pt Bridge map, we have 3 outside letters, enemy has 2 inside letters (which won't usually happen cuz blu-dots think that 2 letters are better than 3 and send 15 guys in after the compound). We have Supply Depots on the outside points. Go ahead. Blow up that Supply Depot inside. But I gotta tell ya, and I'm being honest here, if it was anyone besides you [Numbzz] in the tank blowing up the compound-Supply Depot, that tank would be gone. I would put this in the category of tankers that put themselves in harms way without reason other than greed (50pts). LOL. Translate this as 95-99% (probably more) of the time that a tank blows up a Supply Depot in a game I'm in and that * is going down! You [Numbzz] are the man and I accept whatever justification you have in your mind to blow up a Supply Depot. You've earned it and I would never question it. But blue-dot tankers... NO! They have no thought process other than "Holy ! That Supply Depots not blown up yet. YEAH! I'm getting 50 ** ing pts"
I-Shayz-I Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic 1107	Posted - 2013.10.18 20:47:00 - [66] - Quote Instead of random looot from what players were using... If you win a battle for Gallente, you should get random gallente items. If you win a battle for Amarr, you should get random amarr items. LP sounds interesting, but I'd rather be rewarded by the corporation I'm fighting for...unless of course you make LP able to buy things for a certain faction. For instance, if I win a battle for minmatar I might get: 10x mass driver (common) and/or 5x ADV HMG (uncommon) and/or 1x Proto minmatar logi (rare)
Ignoble Son 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 339	Posted - 2013.10.18 20:48:00 - [67] - Quote Ooo, ooo. Starting to see the potential for PvE here. When will the drone infestation contracts be added? Damn the torpedoes Fox, just tell us.
Hawkin P Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 286	Posted - 2013.10.18 20:56:00 - [68] - Quote What happened to Team Queuing? I don't care about any of this junk. The only thing I want it the ability to Team Que, or different game modes. Seeing what pilots have been killed in the system? What a waste of your time. 98% of dust players DO NOT care about that stuff on Dust because it has no effect on us!!!!!
Arrach Sarkal PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 1	Posted - 2013.10.18 21:03:00 - [69] - Quote CCP FoxFour wrote: Replace ISK payouts with loyalty point payouts. Add a loyalty point store with unique items that cost both ISK and LP. ... Thats some crazy stuff right? You said it. Why are you making it impossible for players to support themselves through FW? I don't understand why you'd do this, especially if the intended goal is to enhance the visibility of the Dust/EVE link in FW, because these changes actively force people to play less FW than they could be playing right now. For context, we're an RP Amarrian loyalist corp (since 2003) and you're now proposing that in order for our Templars to sustainably support themselves beyond free starter gear they absolutely must to take randomly generated contracts and start fighting for Sansha, the Blood Raiders or (worse) Quafe? Yep, that's pretty crazy stuff alright. The only way this might work is if the secondary market is up and running by the same patch as these changes. Not soon(TM) after, it needs to be up and running by that same patch at the latest. Even then, it'll only work if the LP items are saleable in the long term (ie after the initial rush for "new shiny"). I like many of the other changes however these ones in particular will completely break FW (and thus Dust itself) for dedicated FW groups like us on all sides.
Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 1634	Posted - 2013.10.18 21:12:00 - [70] - Quote Could we get a version of the rank system like in EVE? It makes a nice and easy carrot for us to go after.

DS 10 Ancient Exiles 1111	Posted - 2013.10.18 21:16:00 - [71] - Quote Hopefully the whole Team Kill thing gets sorted out. I know griefing is a major issue that needs to be policed well, but right now, the punishment doesn't fit the crime. The way it is now is like getting 20 years for stealing an apple. There are multiple things you can do to punish TKers without ruining the gametype for them. If you look up the stats for PC matches, you'll see that TKs are pretty common, and that's in organized squads with solid communication. Now you're going to throw randoms in the mix and expect us to kill LESS friendlies by accident? Here are a few of my ideas. 1) A Match Limit - Set a limit (3-4) for each match. If you hit this limit, you are kicked from the game. No payout. No ISK gained. Counts as a loss in standing. 2) Weekly Limit - You can have this either be a number like 30 per week, or you can pair it to a match limit. For example, if you get booted from 10 games in a week, you lose the ability to play FW for 2 days. It's not an excessive penalty at all, but it would still be effective. Throw on a cap of how many weeks in a certain amount of weeks you get suspensions, say 3 weeks out of 6, you lose FW for even longer. 3) Charge ISK/LP for Team Kills - At the end of the day, the game is SUPPOSED to be about ISK. Make the match summary show your potential ISK/LP gain, then subtract for TK's, much like the taxes show now. Right now, the penalties are entirely too severe. When you add the randomness of idiot blueberries, you shouldn't ruin the gametype for those who play hard. The penalties are going to cause players to stay away from hot spots and play more conservatively for fear of losing the gametype. That's not what you want.
Prius Vecht Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire 160	Posted - 2013.10.18 21:19:00 - [72] - Quote very well done CCP! We need this now.
Samuel Zelik D.A.R.K Academy D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 62	Posted - 2013.10.18 21:22:00 - [73] - Quote DS 10 wrote: Hopefully the whole Team Kill thing gets sorted out. I know griefing is a major issue that needs to be policed well, but right now, the punishment doesn't fit the crime. The way it is now is like getting 20 years for stealing an apple. There are multiple things you can do to punish TKers without ruining the gametype for them. If you look up the stats for PC matches, you'll see that TKs are pretty common, and that's in organized squads with solid communication. Now you're going to throw randoms in the mix and expect us to kill LESS friendlies by accident? Here are a few of my ideas. 1) A Match Limit - Set a limit (3-4) for each match. If you hit this limit, you are kicked from the game. No payout. No ISK gained. Counts as a loss in standing. 2) Weekly Limit - You can have this either be a number like 30 per week, or you can pair it to a match limit. For example, if you get booted from 10 games in a week, you lose the ability to play FW for 2 days. It's not an excessive penalty at all, but it would still be effective. Throw on a cap of how many weeks in a certain amount of weeks you get suspensions, say 3 weeks out of 6, you lose FW for even longer. 3) Charge ISK/LP for Team Kills - At the end of the day, the game is SUPPOSED to be about ISK. Make the match summary show your potential ISK/LP gain, then subtract for TK's, much like the taxes show now. Right now, the penalties are entirely too severe. When you add the randomness of idiot blueberries, you shouldn't ruin the gametype for those who play hard. The penalties are going to cause players to stay away from hot spots and play more conservatively for fear of losing the gametype. That's not what you want. I definitely agree, the punishment for TKs is way too harsh ATM; you provide a good suggestion and solution. I can't agree with your 3rd point, though. The game isn't supposed to be about ISK; part of the fun is letting the player decide what the game is about. With they loyalty and ranking system, there's more flexibility to a personalized meaning to the game.
Robert Lanate Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 10	Posted - 2013.10.18 21:35:00 - [74] - Quote Good luck with this, the more improvements the beter.
KenKaniff69 Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 724	Posted - 2013.10.18 21:36:00 - [75] - Quote Without the presence of vehicle locks or team deploy, friendly fire should not be turned on. We simple cannot have blueberries who are clueless having a direct impact on our gameplay without these features. Based on what you have said I could get any one person I want kicked by forcing them to TK me.
Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 132	Posted - 2013.10.18 22:01:00 - [76] - Quote You could give players a kick-vote in the death screen. It would give us the chance to forgive our over-zealous friends (or OB callers). The kick-vote would accelerate the match kick kill count, maybe 3 or 4 kick-votes would expel the team-killer.
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers EoN. 2163	Posted - 2013.10.18 22:13:00 - [77] - Quote I think I see where you're going with 0 isk payout with LP payouts... so you can farm isk in pubs and use it to battle in FW... however, I think you might wanna consider how negative people will be going in really good FW matches, its going to really hurt the desire to play it for most expect those who can get huge payouts from things like PC. I would consider changing it a little. Reduce the payouts on FW by ~40% vs pubs but don't remove it altogether. This would still make pubs ideal for farming isk, while giving an incentive for people with too much isk to blow it on FW. If you give 0 isk in FW, only the wealthy few can pay for it for any more than a few matches at a time. I would also consider a 'winner's bonus' for LP. Something like +50% LP for winning the match.
Sirpidey Adtur Aloren Foundations 78	Posted - 2013.10.18 22:14:00 - [78] - Quote I'm a bit worried about the OB change. Right now, it's quite difficult to get orbital support in EVE, simply because of travel time in EVE. Given that the warbarge time is ~30 seconds now, even if the squad leader tells his eve buddy WHERE to go to as soon as possible, they simply might not arrive in orbit before the match is over. There needs to be some way for random eve pilots to know "Oh, this district I'm near has a battle going on, I'd better go support them."
Poonmunch Sanguis Defense Syndicate 505	Posted - 2013.10.18 22:17:00 - [79] - Quote I currently have a semi. Munch
Joel II X AHPA 43	Posted - 2013.10.18 22:18:00 - [80] - Quote Also, add different warbarges. I'm tired of being in a Caldari one when I'm fighting for Gallente. AT LEAST change the banners.

Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 4503	Posted - 2013.10.18 22:18:00 - [81] - Quote Knight Soiaire wrote: Like the look of the changes so far. But..... Team Deploy? (Sorry if it was mentioned and I just missed it) And I assume you'll be adding the Secondary Marketplace at the same time (Or at least, close to the release date of this update), because the last thing I want is more useless salvage lying around. You haven't read the other links have you? Source: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=116189 CCP Foxfour wrote: The general idea is that if you are a hard core factional warfare player you grind up LP, buy things from the LP store, and then sell them to other players for ISK on the market. DUST doesn't have a secondary market for this implemented yet. This left us with a difficult choice to make. We could delay this feature until the secondary market is in; that would suck because we want to play this, and we're sure you guys want to as well. The second option was put this feature in but somehow balance it for there being no secondary market and then rebalance it again when the secondary market comes out. This would be bad as it means a lot of wasted development time. The third option was to balance it for the secondary market and just let you guys do your thing in the meantime. In the end, we settled on the third option. This does mean that people participating in factional contracts will make less ISK right now, but if they are hoarding loyalty points then they will have the potential to make lots of money when the secondary market comes along and they can sell FW gear to other players.
Joel II X AHPA 43	Posted - 2013.10.18 22:20:00 - [82] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: I think I see where you're going with 0 isk payout with LP payouts... so you can farm isk in pubs and use it to battle in FW... however, I think you might wanna consider how negative people will be going in really good FW matches, its going to really hurt the desire to play it for most expect those who can get huge payouts from things like PC. I would consider changing it a little. Reduce the payouts on FW by ~40% vs pubs but don't remove it altogether. This would still make pubs ideal for farming isk, while giving an incentive for people with too much isk to blow it on FW. If you give 0 isk in FW, only the wealthy few can pay for it for any more than a few matches at a time. I would also consider a 'winner's bonus' for LP. Something like +50% LP for winning the match. I love you.
Ignoble Son 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 339	Posted - 2013.10.18 22:20:00 - [83] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: I think I see where you're going with 0 isk payout with LP payouts... so you can farm isk in pubs and use it to battle in FW... however, I think you might wanna consider how negative people will be going in really good FW matches, its going to really hurt the desire to play it for most expect those who can get huge payouts from things like PC. I would consider changing it a little. Reduce the payouts on FW by ~40% vs pubs but don't remove it altogether. This would still make pubs ideal for farming isk, while giving an incentive for people with too much isk to blow it on FW. If you give 0 isk in FW, only the wealthy few can pay for it for any more than a few matches at a time. I would also consider a 'winner's bonus' for LP. Something like +50% LP for winning the match. Not sure about the numbers but I am inclined to agree along these lines.
Ignoble Son 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 339	Posted - 2013.10.18 22:27:00 - [84] - Quote CCP Foxfour wrote: The general idea is that if you are a hard core factional warfare player you grind up LP, buy things from the LP store, and then sell them to other players for ISK on the market. DUST doesn't have a secondary market for this implemented yet. This left us with a difficult choice to make. We could delay this feature until the secondary market is in; that would suck because we want to play this, and we're sure you guys want to as well. The second option was put this feature in but somehow balance it for there being no secondary market and then rebalance it again when the secondary market comes out. This would be bad as it means a lot of wasted development time. The third option was to balance it for the secondary market and just let you guys do your thing in the meantime. In the end, we settled on the third option. This does mean that people participating in factional contracts will make less ISK right now, but if they are hoarding loyalty points then they will have the potential to make lots of money when the secondary market comes along and they can sell FW gear to other players. It all depends on how long of a wait we are talking here. A few months (as in max three) sure. A year abslutly not.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 1612	Posted - 2013.10.18 22:30:00 - [85] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: I think I see where you're going with 0 isk payout with LP payouts... so you can farm isk in pubs and use it to battle in FW... however, I think you might wanna consider how negative people will be going in really good FW matches, its going to really hurt the desire to play it for most expect those who can get huge payouts from things like PC. I would consider changing it a little. Reduce the payouts on FW by ~40% vs pubs but don't remove it altogether. This would still make pubs ideal for farming isk, while giving an incentive for people with too much isk to blow it on FW. If you give 0 isk in FW, only the wealthy few can pay for it for any more than a few matches at a time. I would also consider a 'winner's bonus' for LP. Something like +50% LP for winning the match. Perhaps they should allow you to sell your LP for ISK back to the faction corp until there is a secondary market. There HAS to be an hefty bonus for winning the matches.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 1612	Posted - 2013.10.18 22:33:00 - [86] - Quote Sirpidey Adtur wrote: I'm a bit worried about the OB change. Right now, it's quite difficult to get orbital support in EVE, simply because of travel time in EVE. Given that the warbarge time is ~30 seconds now, even if the squad leader tells his eve buddy WHERE to go to as soon as possible, they simply might not arrive in orbit before the match is over. There needs to be some way for random eve pilots to know "Oh, this district I'm near has a battle going on, I'd better go support them." With Team Kill and the random blueberries you won't be able to drop orbitals without ruining your standings anyway. If you want to drop your orbital on A, but there are 5 blueberries on it what do you do?
Ranger SnakeBlood OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 217	Posted - 2013.10.18 22:38:00 - [87] - Quote +1 this is good to see. Curiosity makes me wonder if gear that is obtained by lp is faction specific say if one works for the minmatar they are suddenly limited to getting minmatar gear suits equipment so on so forth which is fine by me but i know alot of people i fight with in Minmatar FW do not use minmatar gear and to be honest its their choice as a merc, and with out the actual player market one can not sell the gear to make isk to buy their gear this could prove problematic as it will severely limit people who want to fight for a faction that doesnt make the gear they use. How will orbitals work if it is eve player only could it be a request and cooldown thing rather than a points thing this way it is easier for eve players to justify their presence in orbit and could be a match turner if a group is getting pushed back dont have enough points for a orbital but got a friend in eve who just showed up all of a sudden the link would be nice and obvious and there would be a good reason to start making egger friends, the eve guy could get some perks for helping out and all maybe some Faction LP based on whats killed? Also team deploy is fairly vital. Also some FW based PVE would be nice say taking over a military base, a orbiting shipyard, freeing slaves from a holding complex(minmatar and gallentee could do this) stuff like that a bit optimistic i fear.
Marlin Kirby KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 71	Posted - 2013.10.18 22:42:00 - [88] - Quote I'd rather be get some money instead of LP, it limits my choice of weapons. I like everything else however.
Nocturnal Soul Immortal Retribution 822	Posted - 2013.10.18 22:57:00 - [89] - Quote Can we get a bit of isk like 100k or so but not as much as public matches?
Uravm0d groundforce Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 22	Posted - 2013.10.18 23:01:00 - [90] - Quote Good changes. I only have one concern is the isk issue I'm worried battles will be fought for a minute until one team has established themselves as the stronger team then the weaker team will give up and use free suits or snip. Maybe giving the winning team a little isk or even better, team deploy would be worth considering.



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