DUST Search - [Feedback] Time-To-Kill (TTK) is still much too short. Fix it.

Arc-08 wrote:

Laurent Cazaderon wrote:

To be fair, TTK is quite short only with a few weapons. Well with the AR to be more accurate.

I've been using the gallente rifle for most of my time playing dust and i could kill pretty quickly. Since i moved to assault scrambler rifle, i find it way longer (too long tbh), even with 2 damage mods. While i still get killed in a heartbeat by any GAR.

Why ? probably because of the insane lack of recoil on AR which makes it a weapon that delivers, on the BF, a way higher DPS than the rest of the weapons out there.

But when i face a heavy with a HMG, i often say to myself i should have died way quicker. Same goes when fighting 1 vs 1 with another ASCR user.

Obviously, i'm leaving FG out of the equation.

So yeah, let's not mistake overall TTK and weapon specific TTK.

That isn't entirely true. Yes it has some truth but aim assist ruins things, earlier today for example, i was in a proto minmatar assault, against a standard heavy with an hmg, he was standing on stairs above me and didn't start firing his gun until he had about 200 HP left. Pre aim assist he would have missed nearly all of his shots because the barrel of his gun was pointed above my head, however with aim assist nearly all of the bullets counted as headshots so i died from his adv HMG (me having full health 500 shield 200 armor aprox) and ended up dying in under 2 seconds before i could even get another 5 shots to get the kill off. (using a duvolle)

Same applies to dropships, and scout LAV's, and scouts, and heavies.

TTK is to short, if you have a proto assault suit, you can get headshot by a charged up scrambler rifle, then any random mlt weapon can finish you off with a handfull of shots. I belive that what the OP is trying to say is that MLT gear is too effective against prototype gear. The META LEVEL of suits is supposed to give resistance against weapons that are lower than it's meta level, if just a tiny bit. I can 1v1 any proto assault or logi with a blueprint MLT assault rifle. I've taken out proto scouts with a Standard SMG

I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 [6] 7 8 9 :: one page

Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
I-Shayz-I I-----I 1225	Posted - 2013.11.04 00:01:00 - [151] - Quote Pretty sure it's the AR that's causing this, and not TTK in general. ARs are still just too accurate at range...so all of their rounds hit the target and you insta-die within a second. Every other weapon takes quite a while to kill with. Every other weapon is balanced in terms of damage and accuracy for each of their variants. Weapons with high damage output are also required to use at longer ranges (snipers, scramblers, forges), whereas the AR does exceptionally well at long range AND short range. List of Most Important Threads I make logistics videos! (Insert future link here)
Cosgar ParagonX 7120	Posted - 2013.11.04 00:34:00 - [152] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: Pretty sure it's the AR that's causing this, and not TTK in general. ARs are still just too accurate at range...so all of their rounds hit the target and you insta-die within a second. Every other weapon takes quite a while to kill with. Every other weapon is balanced in terms of damage and accuracy for each of their variants. Weapons with high damage output are also required to use at longer ranges (snipers, scramblers, forges), whereas the AR does exceptionally well at long range AND short range. The modern military FPS stigma is the real culprit here. Dust 514 as a thinking man's FPS died out when the vocal minority looking for a F2P CoD took priority in overall feedback. I've been lurking these forums for over a year slowly watching this game decline, more and more to a casual direction where reflexes and instant gratification replaced skill and strategy. Vehicles, scouts, heavies, and anything else that was supposed to make Dust better by being different dying out. Logistics is probably next and that's when I'll finally take my leave. I love Dust 514, but looking at what its become makes me vomit in my mouth a little. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Booker DaFooker Ancient Exiles 154	Posted - 2013.11.04 00:43:00 - [153] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: Pretty sure it's the AR that's causing this, and not TTK in general. ARs are still just too accurate at range...so all of their rounds hit the target and you insta-die within a second. Every other weapon takes quite a while to kill with. Every other weapon is balanced in terms of damage and accuracy for each of their variants. Weapons with high damage output are also required to use at longer ranges (snipers, scramblers, forges), whereas the AR does exceptionally well at long range AND short range. I take your point about the AR but one OP weapon is not at fault for the quick ttk that this game currently has. However it can be achieved (reduced dps, increased hp etc), increasing ttk is a win win for DUST. Love the idea of longer intense attritional firefights for important positions with teamwork and differing skill sets required to gain the upper hand Flanking and other tactical shenanigans are currently really difficult for leaders to instigate because no-one survives a face off long enough to put them to use! Bullshit Baffles Brains
lrian Locust DUST University Ivy League 270	Posted - 2013.11.04 00:55:00 - [154] - Quote Vyzion Eyri wrote: Iwith my Exile AR the HP difference between a mlt fit and a proto fit is VERY noticeable (although I don't use aim assist so maybe it's just my aim). The difference in taking down a militia vs. a proto fit should be much more than "noticeable". More proof that the TTK with an AR is too short.
lrian Locust DUST University Ivy League 270	Posted - 2013.11.04 00:57:00 - [155] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: Rogatien Merc wrote: I10% nerf might be too much, but I agree there is an issue. That's why ALL weapons are going to get this Nerf. Not all weapons - only the ones that got the 10% buff in the first place. Sniper rifles, for instance, should be exempt - they never got the 10% buff.
Cosgar ParagonX 7122	Posted - 2013.11.04 01:02:00 - [156] - Quote lrian Locust wrote: Vyzion Eyri wrote: Iwith my Exile AR the HP difference between a mlt fit and a proto fit is VERY noticeable (although I don't use aim assist so maybe it's just my aim). The difference in taking down a militia vs. a proto fit should be much more than "noticeable". More proof that the TTK with an AR is too short. In earlier builds, weapons were balanced based on how much kick and dispersion they had. Standard ARs had very kick and dispersion while the GEK and Duvolle would rattle like Michael J. Fox before stem cell research if you held the trigger for too long. Even with a game breaking mechanic like sharpshooter in Chromosome, it kept the AR somewhat balanced back then because after a certain range, rounds would totally miss their mark and it was up to incidental damage and damage mods to quickly chip away at a target. Automatic weapons need to kick and disperse to promote controlled bursts instead of just simply hip firing with aim assist on to kill something from from 70+ meters away- I've been doing this with a GEK and damage mods for the past month, facepalming the entire time. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Cosgar ParagonX 7165	Posted - 2013.11.04 08:14:00 - [157] - Quote Another weekly update and no news on the TTK situation. I might take that break sooner than later at this rate. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Laurent Cazaderon What The French 1986	Posted - 2013.11.04 11:23:00 - [158] - Quote To be fair, TTK is quite short only with a few weapons. Well with the AR to be more accurate. I've been using the gallente rifle for most of my time playing dust and i could kill pretty quickly. Since i moved to assault scrambler rifle, i find it way longer (too long tbh), even with 2 damage mods. While i still get killed in a heartbeat by any GAR. Why ? probably because of the insane lack of recoil on AR which makes it a weapon that delivers, on the BF, a way higher DPS than the rest of the weapons out there. But when i face a heavy with a HMG, i often say to myself i should have died way quicker. Same goes when fighting 1 vs 1 with another ASCR user. Obviously, i'm leaving FG out of the equation. So yeah, let's not mistake overall TTK and weapon specific TTK.
KA24DERT Pure Innocence. EoN. 231	Posted - 2013.11.04 17:43:00 - [159] - Quote Laurent Cazaderon wrote: To be fair, TTK is quite short only with a few weapons. Well with the AR to be more accurate. I've been using the gallente rifle for most of my time playing dust and i could kill pretty quickly. Since i moved to assault scrambler rifle, i find it way longer (too long tbh), even with 2 damage mods. While i still get killed in a heartbeat by any GAR. Why ? probably because of the insane lack of recoil on AR which makes it a weapon that delivers, on the BF, a way higher DPS than the rest of the weapons out there. But when i face a heavy with a HMG, i often say to myself i should have died way quicker. Same goes when fighting 1 vs 1 with another ASCR user. Obviously, i'm leaving FG out of the equation. So yeah, let's not mistake overall TTK and weapon specific TTK. Rephrasing it as a "TTK" problem lets us tip-toe towards the real issue. Start with "Nerf the AR" and knees just fly right out of their sockets. ARs need a 30% damage nerf in their current form, or a 10% nerf with added dispersion.
Cosgar ParagonX 7242	Posted - 2013.11.04 18:26:00 - [160] - Quote We all know it's the AR, it's the elephant in the room and tryhards are protecting it. What's going to get done to an issue that we've known about for over a year if 1.7 doesn't fix it? We'll just have 2 more ARs- with even moe range than the one we have now. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"

Arc-08 Knights Of Ender Public Disorder. 121	Posted - 2013.11.05 02:39:00 - [161] - Quote Laurent Cazaderon wrote: To be fair, TTK is quite short only with a few weapons. Well with the AR to be more accurate. I've been using the gallente rifle for most of my time playing dust and i could kill pretty quickly. Since i moved to assault scrambler rifle, i find it way longer (too long tbh), even with 2 damage mods. While i still get killed in a heartbeat by any GAR. Why ? probably because of the insane lack of recoil on AR which makes it a weapon that delivers, on the BF, a way higher DPS than the rest of the weapons out there. But when i face a heavy with a HMG, i often say to myself i should have died way quicker. Same goes when fighting 1 vs 1 with another ASCR user. Obviously, i'm leaving FG out of the equation. So yeah, let's not mistake overall TTK and weapon specific TTK. That isn't entirely true. Yes it has some truth but aim assist ruins things, earlier today for example, i was in a proto minmatar assault, against a standard heavy with an hmg, he was standing on stairs above me and didn't start firing his gun until he had about 200 HP left. Pre aim assist he would have missed nearly all of his shots because the barrel of his gun was pointed above my head, however with aim assist nearly all of the bullets counted as headshots so i died from his adv HMG (me having full health 500 shield 200 armor aprox) and ended up dying in under 2 seconds before i could even get another 5 shots to get the kill off. (using a duvolle) Same applies to dropships, and scout LAV's, and scouts, and heavies. TTK is to short, if you have a proto assault suit, you can get headshot by a charged up scrambler rifle, then any random mlt weapon can finish you off with a handfull of shots. I belive that what the OP is trying to say is that MLT gear is too effective against prototype gear. The META LEVEL of suits is supposed to give resistance against weapons that are lower than it's meta level, if just a tiny bit. I can 1v1 any proto assault or logi with a blueprint MLT assault rifle. I've taken out proto scouts with a Standard SMG Advanced Recon Commando's (A.R.C's) --- Yeah, you don't want to mess with us.
Cosgar ParagonX 7264	Posted - 2013.11.05 02:47:00 - [162] - Quote Arc-08 wrote: Laurent Cazaderon wrote: To be fair, TTK is quite short only with a few weapons. Well with the AR to be more accurate. I've been using the gallente rifle for most of my time playing dust and i could kill pretty quickly. Since i moved to assault scrambler rifle, i find it way longer (too long tbh), even with 2 damage mods. While i still get killed in a heartbeat by any GAR. Why ? probably because of the insane lack of recoil on AR which makes it a weapon that delivers, on the BF, a way higher DPS than the rest of the weapons out there. But when i face a heavy with a HMG, i often say to myself i should have died way quicker. Same goes when fighting 1 vs 1 with another ASCR user. Obviously, i'm leaving FG out of the equation. So yeah, let's not mistake overall TTK and weapon specific TTK. That isn't entirely true. Yes it has some truth but aim assist ruins things, earlier today for example, i was in a proto minmatar assault, against a standard heavy with an hmg, he was standing on stairs above me and didn't start firing his gun until he had about 200 HP left. Pre aim assist he would have missed nearly all of his shots because the barrel of his gun was pointed above my head, however with aim assist nearly all of the bullets counted as headshots so i died from his adv HMG (me having full health 500 shield 200 armor aprox) and ended up dying in under 2 seconds before i could even get another 5 shots to get the kill off. (using a duvolle) Same applies to dropships, and scout LAV's, and scouts, and heavies. TTK is to short, if you have a proto assault suit, you can get headshot by a charged up scrambler rifle, then any random mlt weapon can finish you off with a handfull of shots. I belive that what the OP is trying to say is that MLT gear is too effective against prototype gear. The META LEVEL of suits is supposed to give resistance against weapons that are lower than it's meta level, if just a tiny bit. I can 1v1 any proto assault or logi with a blueprint MLT assault rifle. I've taken out proto scouts with a Standard SMG This shouldn't be about MLT vs PRO, but overall "how much time do I have to react to this?" There's no tactics in Dust anymore, everyone is stuck into this soloist mentality and buffer tanking just to survive that extra 0.03 seconds. When's the last time you've seen someone purely shield tank, let alone not fully stack on plates. This puts way too much importance of whoever has the most HP should win this duel over teamwork governing over killstreaks. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2960	Posted - 2013.11.05 04:16:00 - [163] - Quote Cosgar wrote: This shouldn't be about MLT vs PRO, but overall "how much time do I have to react to this?" There's no tactics in Dust anymore, everyone is stuck into this soloist mentality and buffer tanking just to survive that extra 0.03 seconds. When's the last time you've seen someone purely shield tank, let alone not fully stack on plates. This puts way too much importance of whoever has the most HP should win this duel and kill streaks being more prevalent than teamwork. That's the gist of it. I'd disagree with Laurent about it being AR-specific as well. You can cut people down with any fast firing weapon very very quickly, though I think the AR in particular lends itself to doing that with no skills (I find gameplay with an Exile and 0 sp invested to be easier than with many weapons I've skilled into). Avoiding being a "twitch" shooter is about giving time to react and lengthening encounters. If the only "tactics" are made when you fit your suit and not on the battlefield then it's not a tactical game - it's tactical dress-up. It's about making choices aside from damage mods or stacking hp meaningful, because that situation is forced currently by the need for 1 more sec, or killing a half-second faster. People with massive armor and shields don't "tank" damage really - people need cover or they die. Consider the implications of that. Strafing back and forth around a corner for pot-shots because more than a second of fire will kill you. That's twitch gameplay or that's a cover-based shooter; those are things dust isn't supposed to be you would think. Dust would "seem" to owe a larger debt to something like an MMO strategy where a tank can actually... tank, and be healed/supported by a logistics or two. In the former case, you make a decision like "Oh! There's a guy... shoot!", where in latter you see something requiring more teamwork and strategy. This shouldn't be a game where a lonewolf with an AR and kills everyone. That's the CoD model of twitch and shoot, bunny hop, boom - where teamwork is often incidental. Showing up at the same time in the same place is enough for it to be called teamwork. In that scenario, the time investment and skilltree is irrelevant to the point where you need to question why it even exists.
Cosgar ParagonX 7354	Posted - 2013.11.05 20:51:00 - [164] - Quote Haven't played 1.6 yet. But judging by the top threads in general discussion, I don't think I want to. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2981	Posted - 2013.11.05 21:04:00 - [165] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Haven't played 1.6 yet. But judging by the top threads in general discussion, I don't think I want to. Word on the street from some corp-mates in irc was TTK might be shorter now.
Doshneil Antaro Dem Durrty Boyz Public Disorder. 146	Posted - 2013.11.05 21:04:00 - [166] - Quote While I agree that the AR desperately needs to have some serious kick to address the aim assist+hit detection, there are still other weapons that have insane TTK. The scrambler rifle is skill based more so than the AR, but I die just as quickly to it, and faster if I am using a heavy suit. I use an advanced heavy with proto hmg, And my time to live even in close quarters even with today's patch is not much more than using a std medium suit when going against the scrambler or AR.
Meeko Fent Expert Intervention Caldari State 1373	Posted - 2013.11.05 21:06:00 - [167] - Quote Rollback 10% DMG buff that was applied, and issue resolved. TTK issue, resolved. Meeko's Novelty Shop Opening Soon! We (will)sell all the novelty items you desire! Really! King of Uncertainty.
Doshneil Antaro Dem Durrty Boyz Public Disorder. 146	Posted - 2013.11.05 21:10:00 - [168] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: Rollback 10% DMG buff that was applied, and issue resolved. TTK issue, resolved. Except for sniper rifles and hmg. Those weapons are weak sauce as is.
KA24DERT Pure Innocence. EoN. 243	Posted - 2013.11.05 21:37:00 - [169] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: Rollback 10% DMG buff that was applied, and issue resolved. TTK issue, resolved. Dude, No. Break out a calculator and look at the different weapons. Nothing needs a nerf right now more than the AR. And 10% to the AR won't do anything noticeable, start at 30% damage and it'll begin to make a difference.
Cosgar ParagonX 7370	Posted - 2013.11.06 02:26:00 - [170] - Quote Zeylon Rho wrote: Cosgar wrote: Haven't played 1.6 yet. But judging by the top threads in general discussion, I don't think I want to. Word on the street from some corp-mates in irc was TTK might be shorter now. Oh yeah, totally running BPOs and starter fits until this gets sorted out. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"

KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 6926	Posted - 2013.11.06 06:37:00 - [171] - Quote Weapons with overheat would be effectively nerfed if TTK was lowered since they would need to fire longer to do the same amount of damage, I still support it, but something would have to be done to adjust for that. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of the threads Gû¦Gû+
abarkrishna The Elysian Knights 33	Posted - 2013.11.06 07:36:00 - [172] - Quote If the DPS is around 600 for every gun and most peoples total HP is 600 you have a problem.
hgghyujh Expert Intervention Caldari State 158	Posted - 2013.11.06 08:57:00 - [173] - Quote bump
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2986	Posted - 2013.11.06 13:07:00 - [174] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Zeylon Rho wrote: Cosgar wrote: Haven't played 1.6 yet. But judging by the top threads in general discussion, I don't think I want to. Word on the street from some corp-mates in irc was TTK might be shorter now. Oh yeah, totally running BPOs and starter fits until this gets sorted out. Since the Triple SP event is of the WP-only variety, I figured I'd just sit out for awhile.
Mordecai Sanguine What The French 116	Posted - 2013.11.06 13:18:00 - [175] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: Rollback 10% DMG buff that was applied, and issue resolved. TTK issue, resolved. A lot of weapons wasn't changed by the Hit detection so why they should be nerfed ? And if all weapons get 10% nerf. Then weapons affected by the Hit detection will still be more powerful than others.... Right now i agree with Laurent. Assault Rifle got a too big DPS with too much accuracy. And i think than all the weapons with high RoF got an HUGE buff with the hit detection issues. Only them should be changed. (Exept HMG)
Mia Romani Nexus Marines 25	Posted - 2013.11.06 13:45:00 - [176] - Quote abarkrishna wrote: If the DPS is around 600 for every gun and most peoples total HP is 600 you have a problem. Spot on. It sounds like pre 1.6 we just weren't able to apply full DPS to targets due to hit detection. Now it seems we can, and so now we have a (bigger) problem. Interstellar Crossroads
Soraya Xel Violent Intervention Top Men. 734	Posted - 2013.11.06 15:02:00 - [177] - Quote Time to kill has been reduced (reducing skill of gunplay) every single patch since 1.4. An increase in hit detection should be coupled with a decrease in damage on gun stats. At this point, damage needs to be nerfed 30% across the board. Fine tuning can happen once TTK is long enough that fine tuning matters. Top Men. - The DUST Arm of the CFC www.dust-gents.com Recruiting corporations and players now!
Booker DaFooker Ancient Exiles 159	Posted - 2013.11.06 19:08:00 - [178] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Time to kill has been reduced (reducing skill of gunplay) every single patch since 1.4. An increase in hit detection should be coupled with a decrease in damage on gun stats. At this point, damage needs to be nerfed 30% across the board. Fine tuning can happen once TTK is long enough that fine tuning matters. That's the spirit, 30% minimum in my view, make this game properly unique the way it should be Bullshit Baffles Brains
Lynn Beck Granite Mercenary Division 200	Posted - 2013.11.06 19:14:00 - [179] - Quote Love it. Should we start a petition on this? CCP wants me to specialize? But there's so many weapons! 'Unwise SP spending mode activated'
Vell0cet Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 512	Posted - 2013.11.06 19:25:00 - [180] - Quote After playing a few matches in 1.6 I completely agree that TTK is seriously out-of-whack. I think CCP should immediately remove the Uprising 10% damage buff, and then consider following it up with several further nerfs. TTK was slightly too short in 1.5 (but not all that far from the sweet spot IMO). As it stands now, the game is painful to play. It's negating the entire raison d'+¬tre of gear, SP's, tactics, teamwork etc. Quick/Dirty Test Range Idea



Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 [6] 7 8 9 :: one page
First page \| Previous page \| Next page \| Last page