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[Feedback] Time-To-Kill (TTK) is still much too short. Fix it.

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Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2701	Posted - 2013.10.10 22:50:00 - [1] - Quote This became a huge thing when 1.4 launched, and it's killed a lot of the satisfaction in the game for a significant chunk of the player-base. The assumption when 1.4 launched is that is was all because of aim-assist (remember all those threads), yet there was also a matter where hit-detection of various weapons had improved in tandem. This was something you (CCP) said you'd be watching. I hope you've seen by now how laughably short someone's life is under the gun of even a MLT-grade quality. What do you think makes Dust unique in comparison to something like Halo or Quake? You would think the fact that character advancement allows you to customize your suit would be a large factor, no? Take a look at this Halo video. From the point at which the video starts, you can see it takes him a couple direct volleys with his rifle to drop/kill his opponent. It's about 6 seconds or so, and his aim is pretty good. Halo is a deathmatch sort of game where your suits are not custom and the battles are meant to be frantic and short. Compare that to Dust 514 in 1.4. (this is from CEOPyrex's video) Aside from the fact that his aim was all over the place and he was barely hitting him, it's even quicker to kill people in Dust, a game where you can fit armor/shield modules and be customized after MONTHS of play. The fact you can drop people super-quick now isn't a newsflash; it's been all over the forums since 1.4 dropped. I've heard a few suggestions for fixes, but perhaps removing the 10% across the board damage increase you gave with all the hit-detection issues at launch would be a good start. Please fix this. Fittings, skills, etc. are supposed to matter. Right now you've rendered 90% of skills pointless as a Frontline Starter with a MLT rifle and Zero SP invested can drop just about anyone faster than those guys in Halo, etc. If you want your game to be something different, then realize shooting for faster/more-death-laden gameplay than a Halo, etc. game is not the direction you want to be heading.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2713	Posted - 2013.10.11 15:58:00 - [2] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Xaviah Reaper wrote: I think all except HMG should lose the 10% buff. those guys need a break. getting out gunned vs a basic AR when you have full hp and an mh82 point blank, isn't logical Id agree with that, I mean, I feel like I should be a little more worried when someone with a huge armored suit and mini gun is coming at me (at short/mid range) and I'm kinda not. Another decent option is to increase the kick/recoil on the AR to be more like an AScR to make it a little less of a long range weapon. I think a large part of the gripes about the AR is the prevalence of the weapon. Most weapons where hit detection and/or aim is a factor became more powerful in 1.4 though. The weapons that didn't become "better" were ones that couldn't benefit from that sort of thing: Sniper Rifles (still have issues with texture glitches, etc.,), Swarm Launcher (already tracked), and so on. Weapons with higher rates of fire could benefit from both hit detection AND aim-assist. If a sniper has a hit detection issue (not uncommon), then they take another shot. Weapons like the SMG and AR though get a double benefit from hit detection and aim-assist, which is what made them so deadly. The 10% bonus was added to damage originally across the board partially because people were complaining about difficulty killing people. That's because when Dust 514 launched in May, there were various rendering, lag, and engine issues that were taking a huge toll on hit detection. This was said originally: Quote: Tl;dr version: GÇó In the next hot-fix weapons will all get a 10% damage increase to compensate for the removal of the Weaponry skill bonus. GÇó HMG damage buffed to 18 HP (including aforementioned 10% increase) and given a 5% dispersion buff. GÇó In the near future, we will address range issues by removing the hard stop that currently takes place at maximum weapon range. In Chromosome, the Weaponry skill gave an across the board 2% damage bonus to handheld weapons per level. Given the low SP cost of the skill (and the fact that itGÇÖs a pre-req for every weapon in the game) the majority of players would just skill straight to level 5 making the skill pretty pointless. So, in Uprising we removed the skill bonus. The side effect of this, of course, is that time-to-kill has increased. This, combined with some of the control issues weGÇÖve been seeing, has led to combat feeling worse than it did in Chromosome. We will address this with a hot-fix that gives an across the board 10% increase to all handheld weapon damage to put DPS back to where it was. Additionally, weGÇÖve increased HMG damage and reduced the dispersion penalty when moving by 5% to address issues with the weapon. The removal of the Sharpshooter skill (which gave bonuses to range) has also highlighted some issues with range in general. Weapon classes need unique range profiles. I doubt anyone would dispute that. And the sharpshooter skill was pushing far too many weapons beyond their intended engagement ranges. While itGÇÖs removal has caused some issues, the SS skill was a crutch and it hid more deep-seated problems with range in the game. It will not be coming back. This is from a post date MAY TENTH. So, they decided to give a blanket 10% bonus within about 3 days of the new build coming out (Dust's newer build actually launched a week before the 14th). This means they made this change based on an uproar in about 3 days of gameplay. An uproar where people had problems killing people as fast as they used to... BUT the frustration factor of killing people was largely impacted by these things: The removal of the Sharpshooter skill Everyone in Chromosome was used to having augmented reach on their weapons. hard stop that currently takes place at maximum weapon range Prior to that more recent fix, your weapons did zero damage outside of max range, and there wasn't really "fall-off" Controls/hit-detection issues This was also acknowledged at the time (3 days post build-launch): Quote: Aiming and control system in general: We have done a massive amount of updates to this area of the game with Uprising, laying an enhanced tech foundation for all of these systems to iterate on into the future, and of course, this has come with a lot of feedback as well in the days since Uprising deployment. We are aware of the issue that some players are experiencing GÇ£slipperyGÇ¥ feel of aiming and general gameplay experience, and our team is carefully looking into tweaking controls schemes for both keyboard and mouse and the Dualshock controller. For example, we have made changes to the input settings on the mouse which should improve the smoothness and fine aiming. The new values are very similar to those in Chromosome (though not identical). Expect CCP Wolfman to have detailed discussions about this particular issue on the forums here. Again, there are updates to this going out right now as I type this. Read: -They changed how aiming worked with the launch with a mind to "iterate on it in the future"(and people complained about difficulty killing people). -The bonus to damage basically fixed the "TTK" problem while they worked on the controls and hit-detection (iterated on it) So, we have a damage bonus that was in part a reaction to an outcry of players reacting to changing what they familiar with, but it was actually a combined issue with: less range, aiming/control, hit-detection/rendering, and fall-off damage issues. So, if we're at a point where these other issue have been fixed; it's time for the crutch TO GO!
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2725	Posted - 2013.10.12 20:58:00 - [3] - Quote I think across the board would be the best bet, though I can see why people that use weapons that haven't benefitted from the AA/hit-detection or that have other underlying issues would feel that's a bad idea.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2729	Posted - 2013.10.13 14:54:00 - [4] - Quote I agree with some of the post-uprising changes. Removing sharpshooter was a good idea, because there WERE issues with playing with weapon ranges like that, and they still don't quite have a handle on weapon-range balance either. It works better in the context of EVE because of how engagements work there I think, but they can't cut-n-paste EVE mechanics and skills into Dust. I was hopefully communicating that the original damage buff and changes were knee-jerk, based on whining people subjected to many changes and issues at the same time. As Cosgar suggests, they probably made that change SOOO quickly because the official launch was coming a handful of days after that. There's some inherent discomfort in many players with TTK that's longer than a twitch shooter because I think a lot of people haven't played games of that nature. Dust is a lobby shooter with deathmatch, and that kind of design makes dropping people quickly and making your kill-count rise one of the key sources of satisfaction. Dust isn't quite aiming to be long TTK by strafe-fest either though I think. That's ALSO a different kind of game. If everyone moved faster than scouts, rocket jumped, and we had platforms acting as trampolines and launchers... different kind of game. The idea in Dust is SUPPPOSED to be one where it takes some time to kill a target... because they're friggin loaded with shields and armor and they spent 3 months becoming an expert in mitigating damage (as opposed to scanning, etc.). A solo player should take awhile to kill another solo player in the same sense that two knights might have to contend with the fact their sword can't just cut through the other guy's plate. The whole idea of having characters that are purposely "slower" and easier to hit is that they're sacrificing speed/evasion for the ability to tank damage (which barely exists now). To "actually" take down players quickly, you be using teamwork or doing something very intelligent or skillful, not twitching in their general direction.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2758	Posted - 2013.10.15 16:35:00 - [5] - Quote Perhaps it would help to view this more as an RPG in part. The character customization and scope of development REQUIRES us to be measured and thoughtful in how we approach building a character because it's such a long process (or at least it would...). If you think of a game like Borderlands, you're potentially spending a lot of time strafing and putting fire down on a single target. There are slower targets with more HP, and that would be vaguely equivalent to something like our armor/heavy tradeoff. I think Dust could probably stand to handle teamwork, tactics, and synergy a bit better than that title mind you (though the 2nd was a bit better with cross-team skills). The idea is that you're going to focus on communication, tactics, and strategy to make intelligent decisions in combat (and when preparing by making fittings). Use your head, not your wrists. Stack damage mods OR use an AR (or both) isn't indicative of depth (neither is get high ground->forge everything really, but it's a bit more involved). The short lifespan is the enemy of thought here, and it negates the rest of the game design. Some people may like run-n-gun solo-quick-kill gameplay, but that's not really where this should be. It's something they probably became accustomed to in certain games that had no sense of progression and were intended to be twitch. I might enjoy running around in some other game with hacks on that let me insta-kill too (for awhile anyway), but it's essentially exchanging a strategic element for... Fruit Ninja. It gets old quick either way. Some people might argue that there are in fact tactical/team considerations in Dust, but this doesn't invalidate complaints about TTK. Take the previous example: organized insta-kill modders in a game would be more effective than unorganized as well, no? The tactics used right now overly simplistic in part because of these sorts of balance issues.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2783	Posted - 2013.10.17 15:58:00 - [6] - Quote I don't think it's a matter of Heavies losing any value in the game (Forge guns are still very useful), or HMGs being worthless (like anything with a high RoF currently, they kill quickly). It's that Heavies, much like in other suit, can get dropped in seconds. The HP-difference isn't making much of a difference. Though you do see Heavies toting ARs because of their strength in the current framework, and because the suits with the most hp are bound to give you slightly more seconds. This doesn't really change the fact that you can drop a heavy ridiculously fast with MLT AR and no skills (like, faster than it would be to kill someone in Halo or another game where you can't customize armor/shields for example.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2796	Posted - 2013.10.18 17:26:00 - [7] - Quote Needed a bump...
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2798	Posted - 2013.10.19 05:30:00 - [8] - Quote BIotics in either, huh? Interesting.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2804	Posted - 2013.10.20 22:35:00 - [9] - Quote I'd focus more on the fact that fitting protective modules is an option in this game, and the options are largely irrelevant in the current state of affairs. As mentioned, heavies might be able to eek out a few more seconds, but they ultimately fall quickly like most players. I'm arguing that everyone should be alive longer. What degree of impact do you think something like a "Basic Shield Extender" (or MLT) has in the current game? Do you think those 22 hp make in any marked difference in how long someone stays alive? Do 33 hp? In either case, the hp from the module get wiped in in 1 AR "round", or which many many will fly in a single second. If you're concerned about new players, the extend to which a new player can choose to mitigate damage in a MLT/STD suit might be limited to two slots. So, a "new" player opting for survival-type "fittings" in an Amarr MLT suit would be able to sport TWO of those 22 hp non-factors (an Amarr MLT suit only has two high slots, no lows). So, as long as we have the damage situation as-is, new players are just as, if not more, screwed when outfitting their characters. That or we just say that modules of a certain type are just worthless. I don't think vets should be unkillable; a damage nerf across the board could give new players more time to evade death and make mistakes as well. As far as playing history making for an advantage, in a RPG where you can develop stats, skills, and assets - if history doesn't make a difference then we should all go back to playing Doom or some such. There's no point in persistence or RPG elements if they're cosmetic non-factors.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2809	Posted - 2013.10.21 17:16:00 - [10] - Quote TechMechMeds wrote: Bump. Thanks. Still an issue. I'm looking at not bothering capping out this week for the first time since April. I'm lacking faith that the blink-and-die timing will get changed, ever, with the lack of any real dev attention compared to their knee-jerk addition of the 10% dmg buff in less than a week.

Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2825	Posted - 2013.10.23 09:28:00 - [11] - Quote This was in fact the first week I didn't cap since April. I think I'm going to give it a rest till you fix this. If I wanted to play a game with short TTK, no stats, twitch-style - I can find better. Though frankly I don't want to play that all. Maybe you'll make the leveling and equipment actually matter. It's utterly pointless as-is. For the longest time I saved up my SP for all the content that was "soon" after you gave "the last respec" back in May. I waited and waited... and NOTHING. So, I spent my SP. I was able to rationalize dying quickly despite fitting shield extenders, armor plates, etc. because I'd ran free fits for most of that time, and it makes sense that I'd die easily in a MLT suit, right? So, I got proto suits, shields, armor, weapons, fittings, etc. It didn't really make a difference. You still live a shorter life than someone playing a match of Halo or another game like that. Everyone dies like a grunt in a 90s shooter. The RPG elements are window-dressing that doesn't matter for now, and nothing we do matters in any way, ever. It's a persistent world we have no stake in. The proposed FW rewards are just fitting bonuses basically (at best), and that isn't interesting at all (we had those before, and they weren't that exciting then either). This whole game has been a slog since 1.4, that's enough of that. I hope you fix it at some point and move away from twitch shooter territory, because you're not going to beat Halo/CoD by being crappyHalo or crappyCoD.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2831	Posted - 2013.10.23 23:53:00 - [12] - Quote This is the sort of thing that needed a hotfix shortly after 1.4 launched.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2837	Posted - 2013.10.24 19:47:00 - [13] - Quote I'd be more concerned about 10% being "enough" rather than too much. The state of affairs with AA and hit-detection as-is might be a bit too much for the 10% damage revert to fix. 10% is a reasonable start though. Let's not forget, people will immediately ***** about people taking longer to kill than: before, than in CoD, than it takes before they get killed. That won't necessarily mean the game is balanced or fixed, it's just what you'd expect if they altered damage by some factor. If TTK goes from 1-3 seconds to 2-5 seconds, then I'm not sure if we can necessarily say things are fixed - just marginally better. The idea is to work ourselves towards something that functions well. The longer you stay in the current system, the more that people that still play get acclimated to the idea that people in Dust should die quickly like some other shooter. People will continue to work towards earning skills that don't really make a difference in the same way that people might work towards Farmville goals. There's a psychological appeal there. The idea is to give the game actual depth before all the players that are left are people that just want some low-rate version of space CoD. More MMO-RPG-FPS, less lobby shooter.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2842	Posted - 2013.10.25 09:23:00 - [14] - Quote It seems like the new AR stats give it slightly increased range? With damage kept constant, this won't get any better. Maybe CCP staff prefer playing the game as a twitch shooter with everybody basically equal too.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2852	Posted - 2013.10.27 01:14:00 - [15] - Quote Alldin Kan wrote: Zeylon Rho wrote: This became a huge thing when 1.4 launched, and it's killed a lot of the satisfaction in the game for a significant chunk of the player-base. The assumption when 1.4 launched is that was all because of aim-assist (remember all those threads), yet there was also a matter where hit-detection of various weapons had improved in tandem, and other issues as well. This was something you (CCP) said you'd be watching. I hope you've seen by now how laughably short someone's life is under the gun of even MLT-grade quality. What do you think makes Dust unique in comparison to something like Halo or Quake? You would think the fact that character advancement allows you to customize your suit would be a large factor, no? Take a look at this Halo video. From the point at which the video starts, you can see it takes him a couple direct volleys with his rifle to drop/kill his opponent. It's about 6 seconds or so, and his aim is pretty good. Halo is a deathmatch sort of game where your suits are not custom and the battles are meant to be frantic and short. Compare that to Dust 514 in 1.4. (this is from CEOPyrex's video) Aside from the fact that his aim was all over the place and he was barely hitting him, it's even quicker to kill people in Dust, a game where you can fit armor/shield modules and be customized after MONTHS of play. The fact you can drop people super-quick now isn't a newsflash; it's been all over the forums since 1.4 dropped. I've heard a few suggestions for fixes, but perhaps removing the 10% across the board damage increase you gave with all the hit-detection issues at launch would be a good start. Please fix this. Fittings, skills, etc. are supposed to matter. Right now you've rendered 90% of skills pointless as a Frontline Starter with a MLT rifle and Zero SP invested can drop just about anyone faster than those guys in Halo, etc. If you want your game to be something different, then realize shooting for faster/more-death-laden gameplay than a Halo, etc. game is not the direction you want to be heading. No. I admire your well-reasoned response and support for CoD. It's a shame you're posting in the wrong forum for that.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2855	Posted - 2013.10.27 06:31:00 - [16] - Quote Bethhy wrote: there was no magical 10% buff? please people learn history... it will set you free in almost anything in life. ... no magical 10% damage showed up to anything. And hit detection is worse then it has ever been.... No one is suggesting anything "magical" happened. I cite the exact dev posts referencing the buff here. History is great, but you need to work on finishing a page before you teach it.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2868	Posted - 2013.10.28 07:16:00 - [17] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: I do agree with the Forge being too powerful against infantry. It probably needs a nerf against drop suits and also have a small random trajectory variance so that it can't snipe infantry with pinpoint accuracy, but can still hit a vehicle. Sniper rifles I feel are fine. Working as intended. I've killed lots of prototype snipers with the base rifle. Skill is key. That said, the day to day scourge of this game is the raw DPS of the hit-scan weapons combined with Auto-Aim. Some people are suggesting a 10% drop in damage to the main battle rifles, but I'm thinking more like 30% to start. A Duvolle does a BASE damage of 467.5 per second. That's enough to drop most fits in the game. IN ONE SECOND. A 10% nerf brings the DPS down to 420.75. That's still enough to drop most fits in the game in under a second. 30% brings the DPS down to 327.25 base. Three seconds to drop a fully decked out proto suit with 900+ hp? Now we're entering the realm of reason. The nerf for ARs and ScRs *STARTS* at 30%, or HP in this game will remain a near meaningless statistic. For comparison, the Freedom Mass Driver gets 270 DPS, IF you get a direct hit. Which is why I share Mordecai Sanguine's sentiment that a nerf should NOT be across the board. Like I said, I'm not worried about 10% being too much, but I think it's a start. I personally doubt TTK would be "fixed" in any real sense with only a 10% debuff, as the problems are a bit broader than just the raw damage output as you suggest. The combination of AA and hit-detection changes made for a large adjustment. A 10% change alone wouldn't shift things like "Basic Shield Extenders" into the range of "meaningful/useful module" even on the MLT level. I think I may be at odds vision-wise with some other people on what "fixed" would look like. If a person is completely skilled and outfitted into tanking (all complex shield extenders and plates at max in a PRO suit), I don't think an individual MLT guy should be able to drop him in a couple seconds. I think going all tank should be sacrificing your damage potential (or other potential to some degree) as well. I think the all-tanked troops should only be dropping quickly if faced with focused fire from more than one unit. Relatively speaking of course. The current way the game works emphasizes damage over everything else, and a much much smaller quantity of SP invested in damage mods/weapons to PRO will make a much larger difference than and tanking modules you could ever skill into (which are all much more expensive relatively). The current game advertises tanking and damage mitigation options which don't actually mitigate to any great degree. This is an issue. The tanking issue is bad enough though, that as mentioned, you can take down well-tanked people with a MLT weapon and no skills very easily as well. In the world of Dust, protective technology hasn't kept pace with damage tech.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2870	Posted - 2013.10.28 18:47:00 - [18] - Quote Bethhy wrote: And if they are basing the TTK from uprising launch? where they lost over half their active population in one patch... They need to go back to beta where everyone still lives... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZI6msPfY7Y And incase you wonder why we vet's love the old beta concept... The game was just cooler then... Even the graphix where 100 times better looking IMO. They have made it cartoony and lost that "DUST" element [u]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnLOT4ljptM/u] (Do you really think DUST gameplay has done anything in the 1 year since that worth note?) From the first video, the TTK was also too short then. If you thought it was better then, you're part of the problem. TTK there is still much shorter than a game like Halo or CoD where you can't actually choose to fit shields/armor. We don't need CoD in space, and skills are made pointless by the fact they don't matter.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2872	Posted - 2013.10.28 20:31:00 - [19] - Quote Bethhy wrote: Zeylon Rho wrote: Bethhy wrote: And if they are basing the TTK from uprising launch? where they lost over half their active population in one patch... They need to go back to beta where everyone still lives... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZI6msPfY7Y And incase you wonder why we vet's love the old beta concept... The game was just cooler then... Even the graphix where 100 times better looking IMO. They have made it cartoony and lost that "DUST" element [u]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnLOT4ljptM/u] (Do you really think DUST gameplay has done anything in the 1 year since that worth note?) From the first video, the TTK was also too short then. If you thought it was better then, you're part of the problem. TTK there is still much shorter than a game like Halo or CoD where you can't actually choose to fit shields/armor. We don't need CoD in space, and skills are made pointless by the fact they don't matter. Seriously? because ask any person considered to be competitive top 100 gun gamer's... And the TTk in beta was awesome.. everything about the gun game in beta was awesome... Most of us are still here today because we got addicted to this game in beta... And everytime we log on it makes us sad at what DUST has become from people who just don't know much...understand the history or that it even has repeated itself like 10 times already.... but those people cough have a giant opinion... Just go back and do the research... we had suit's that where half the health point values and guns that did just as much damage... but gun game was at an all time high... Even hit detection is no different.. So let's ask what is the change that made this problem.... Ahhhhh Aim assist... welcome to the giant elephant all you users keep trying to explain away. You can nerf damage and change weapon ranges and do whatever... a computer generated aiming system takes any dualing potential based on players skill a way... and makes this giant TTk issue. when gunning... OHKO weapons aside... shakes fist at CCP The top 100 gun gamer's what? You used the possessive there, and then dropped an ellipsis. I'm not good at guessing. I mention the AA in other posts, which you would know if you knew how to read. Please have your caretaker finish reading the posts to you before typing your replies. Also, we can only wield single weapons at a time, so there will never be any "dualing potential". The gun-game in Beta was utter crap, and you showed a video to prove it. I'm not saying this from just the video though; I played pre-launch and it was crap then too. How long do you think it was taking to kill people in that first video you posted? 1 or 2 seconds? Look at the Halo video I posted. I don't care if you "Like" Halo, I just want you to see how long it takes a person to die. Now, do you think it "makes sense" that it's easier/quicker to kill someone in a game where you can spend months training up shields extenders, rechargers, regulators, armor plates, and armor repairers as opposed to a game where you start out with a default shield like Halo? If you seriously think that the "endpoint" of training defensive skills for months in Dust should be a character that lives for a shorter amount of time than a game with zero customization, then we don't need to be having this conversation. Dust shouldn't be about replicating some ideal gun-game for you that you compare to other games like top-100 people's possessions that you can't be bothered to specify. Other gun games don't necessarily have skill and equipment trees that take months to build. If you think that shouldn't matter, then there are other games for you to play elsewhere (and they won't take any time to get into).
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2873	Posted - 2013.10.28 21:17:00 - [20] - Quote Bethhy wrote: Zeylon Rho wrote: The gun-game in Beta was utter crap, and you showed a video to prove it. I'm not saying this from just the video though; I played pre-launch and it was crap then too. How long do you think it was taking to kill people in that first video you posted? 1 or 2 seconds? Please after this your very amusing. An so little understanding about gun game then. if you leave your head exposed or in a area for a long time a slayer will take it off every time... two Markof22 "dueling" and its a much different video(how dare i have a typo that you took literally..) Did you actually watch how many times a skilled player died with low health values? or did you dismiss that part of the video as "tryhard's" ? everyones top 100 changes a bit... but the big names are usually always present. And if your counter post is about correcting my poor grammar... then you will win every time. i have poor grammar and even poorer spaeeeeeeeelling. TTK's in pub's is nothing... maybe you need to come to PC more... OHKO's and AA is to blame for TTK.... not some 10% damage value that has always existed... No matter how much you tell yourself that, it isn't true. It wasn't "a" typo; it was tons of typos. If your posts can't even follow at least some sort of simple high-school level logic, then they'll ultimately all be pointless. You already seem to be assuming that other posters weren't around back in beta, which is a faulty assumption on your part. I started playing within a couple weeks of you. For instance: Quote: TTK's in pub's is nothing... maybe you need to come to PC more... OHKO's and AA is to blame for TTK.... not some 10% damage value that has always existed... No matter how much you tell yourself that, it isn't true. That's not even a sentence. What can we parse from that? 1. TTK in pub's is nothing TTK in pub's what are nothing? 2. Maybe you need to come to PC more Your case for trying to introduce me to the consensus opinion is to tell me to play a mode that's been called broken by many players? 3. OHKO's and AA is to blame for TTK.... not some 10% damage value that has always existed One-hit-Knock-Out's what? That and Aim-Assist are to blame for TTK... being bad? 4. No matter how much you tell yourself that, it isn't true. What isn't true? What am I telling myself? I was observing TTK in that video. TTK isn't the max time the best possible player in the best possible circumstances can live; it's an average. The average time people were living in that video was short. Check it against the average time people live in the Halo video. The end result is that people live longer in Halo (with no system of learning defensive skills) than they do in Dust. I have never used the word "tryhard", but if I did I wouldn't somehow make it into a possessive for no apparent reason. I have no idea what you're talking about with a "top 100". TTK in pubs was all there was in beta (unless you count corp matches), which is what you were using as your example of "good". So, if it's "nothing" in pubs, and it was only good back when PC didn't exist - you seem to have some hardcore logic fail going on.

Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2873	Posted - 2013.10.28 22:08:00 - [21] - Quote It doesn't matter how international the game is. If your ideas aren't communicated on at least a junior high level, then I'll have no idea what you're talking about. The distribution of a game doesn't change how language works. The fact you can't see this speaks loudly to how willfully ignorant or intellectually lazy you choose to be. I've already stated that a 10% damage debuff wouldn't be enough to fix the issues, but you keep coming back around to it anyway. This suggests to me that you can't read. I've also pointed out repeatedly that there are some key issues if a player in Dust lives a shorter amount of time than a player in another game where you can't train skills. The issue there is that the skills and equipment you train to protect yourself can take months of investment, but they leave you surviving for a shorter amount of time than a player in a game that has no need for strategic investment of SP/EXP/whatever. The point is the life of a person that has invested in skills to protect themselves is too short given the time required to achieve those skills. You would expect that the TTK of a tanked person would be longer than a game with no skills, not shorter. This is talking about TTK as an average. You continue to make assumptions about what I may or may not do in games, and what the people I shoot at will or won't be wearing. I already told you that I was playing within weeks of you. You talk about me getting after you for grammar, but you'll talk down to people as if we've only "heard" of protosuits and skills. You act as if none of the people voicing their support have used proto-level gear or been around awhile. Do you think I have less than 2 million SP? Do you think I've never seen a Proto suit? Never shot at one? Never worn one? Your experiences are not in any way unique, special, or correct. The video you posted was just evidence of the TTK being shorter than Halo/etc. even back in beta. So, I suppose I should thank you for providing additional evidence at how screwed up the TTK is in this game.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2875	Posted - 2013.10.28 23:37:00 - [22] - Quote Bethhy wrote: You keep assuming a player should automatically live longer when he's getting shot in the head repeatedly... and i keep coming around to the 10% buff because u seem to think it came out of thin air and argued that point on 2 separate counter posts to me. No one has to assume your skill... it's well documented and kinda abysmal, 3700 kills and you talk about experience in the game...from Subdreddit? and shooting loads of proto suits... You seriously are the exact example of every person who has a giant opinion with no experience or little to speak of... and are posting on forums. My 5th alt has more kills then you.... by a significant amount. Simple fact is much more credible sources can be quoted all over these forums that gun game and TTk in beta was amazing... And if you continue to argue that it wasn't you only show yourself out. Even the death's that happened in that round against the team that got stomped werent even HALF of what the average death's are now... the hit detection didn't make everyone die a lot... Welcome to the extra deaths from OHKO's and AA, adding to players that never should of got that kill to begin with. Junior highschool? had to google that... is that so the big kids don't pick on the little ones? you could grammar **** 50% of the developer posts in DUST if you really wanted... as most of them don't speak english as their first language either... And no i doubt you where playing in closed beta... Do you even know one of the blackop's tank names without googling it? did you even know black op's tanks existed in the game? There is a reason i had to post a video from a year ago almost to the week. People don't know this game has gone backwards almost for the sake of UI upgrades and a broken PC system. Yes, a player in a game a with armor/shield skills that can choose to preferentially skill towards tanking should live longer when being shot in the head than a player player in Halo where you don't have any skills to train. Is that succinct enough for you? I quoted the lines about the 10% buff since you said we claimed in magically appeared, and I cited the exact dev comments about when the 10% buff. I've gone on to state in multiple posts that a 10% "debuff" probably wouldn't fix TTK. At what point did I say loads of protosuits? I've worn them, shot at them, and shot from them. I've played a primarily logistics role since launch. I've capped out my SP every week until last week since April. I'm sorry that my play-time doesn't match someone that has a "fifth alt", because clearly you have tons of time to invest in the game. If you want to prove you have no life beyond this game, good job? However, playing until SP-cap since before official release seems like more than a large enough amount of play-time to have an informed opinion to me. Capping every week already puts me at more time spent than the average player. You're more of an outlier than me. I'd hate to think how crappy this game would be if you had to be the sort of player with a "5th alt" to have an opinion, or pay attention to things like Top 100 whatevers of nobodies. This may surprise you, but you don't actually need to shoot at "loads" of protosuits to get a feel for how long it takes to kill one. In fact, in pubs you would get a chance to compare the people in protosuits to the people in advanced/standard in the same game. Imagine that! Though I've already pointed out that you like to dismiss other people's opinions under the guise of your leetness, and so I'm certain you didn't JUST make a post doing exactly that. Your video proves TTK in beta was crap, because we can actually see it. There's a time running on the video, and it's easy to count. Junior High is where boys and girls go around puberty to learn basic grammar and logic. I have pointed out issues to Devs on grammar in their posts, and they typically correct them after I do. The difference there is that they're not proud of being ignorant like yourself.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2887	Posted - 2013.10.30 06:16:00 - [23] - Quote The heavy HP buff I guess is technically a step in the right direction, in a minor way, for a very small segment of the population. Though it's not nearly enough to fix Commandos from being generally useless....
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2913	Posted - 2013.11.01 14:26:00 - [24] - Quote I'm a bit iffy on Pyrex's skillset, since he's demoed so many different weapons and vehicles in his videos over time. Though some of that was pre-launch too I think.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2922	Posted - 2013.11.03 13:36:00 - [25] - Quote Nice to see this thread receiving the attention it deserves.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2960	Posted - 2013.11.05 04:16:00 - [26] - Quote Cosgar wrote: This shouldn't be about MLT vs PRO, but overall "how much time do I have to react to this?" There's no tactics in Dust anymore, everyone is stuck into this soloist mentality and buffer tanking just to survive that extra 0.03 seconds. When's the last time you've seen someone purely shield tank, let alone not fully stack on plates. This puts way too much importance of whoever has the most HP should win this duel and kill streaks being more prevalent than teamwork. That's the gist of it. I'd disagree with Laurent about it being AR-specific as well. You can cut people down with any fast firing weapon very very quickly, though I think the AR in particular lends itself to doing that with no skills (I find gameplay with an Exile and 0 sp invested to be easier than with many weapons I've skilled into). Avoiding being a "twitch" shooter is about giving time to react and lengthening encounters. If the only "tactics" are made when you fit your suit and not on the battlefield then it's not a tactical game - it's tactical dress-up. It's about making choices aside from damage mods or stacking hp meaningful, because that situation is forced currently by the need for 1 more sec, or killing a half-second faster. People with massive armor and shields don't "tank" damage really - people need cover or they die. Consider the implications of that. Strafing back and forth around a corner for pot-shots because more than a second of fire will kill you. That's twitch gameplay or that's a cover-based shooter; those are things dust isn't supposed to be you would think. Dust would "seem" to owe a larger debt to something like an MMO strategy where a tank can actually... tank, and be healed/supported by a logistics or two. In the former case, you make a decision like "Oh! There's a guy... shoot!", where in latter you see something requiring more teamwork and strategy. This shouldn't be a game where a lonewolf with an AR and kills everyone. That's the CoD model of twitch and shoot, bunny hop, boom - where teamwork is often incidental. Showing up at the same time in the same place is enough for it to be called teamwork. In that scenario, the time investment and skilltree is irrelevant to the point where you need to question why it even exists.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2981	Posted - 2013.11.05 21:04:00 - [27] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Haven't played 1.6 yet. But judging by the top threads in general discussion, I don't think I want to. Word on the street from some corp-mates in irc was TTK might be shorter now.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2986	Posted - 2013.11.06 13:07:00 - [28] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Zeylon Rho wrote: Cosgar wrote: Haven't played 1.6 yet. But judging by the top threads in general discussion, I don't think I want to. Word on the street from some corp-mates in irc was TTK might be shorter now. Oh yeah, totally running BPOs and starter fits until this gets sorted out. Since the Triple SP event is of the WP-only variety, I figured I'd just sit out for awhile.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3023	Posted - 2013.11.08 17:16:00 - [29] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: Text Grant wrote: Agreed. Remove 10% buff from every weapon No. Not every weapon needs a nerf. I'd like to say that I don't think you're wrong. I suggested the 10% debuff as an interim fix. Here's how I explained it recently to someone else: I don't think of a 10% debuff as a magic fix for all that ails us, just a means of making a relatively minor adjustment that could be checked afterwards for differences in gameplay. Some of the issues still relate till weapon performance in general, which tends not to get addressed as much. The lack of recoil/muzzle climb/dispersion when ADSing with an AR for example is part of what makes it so easy to land tight groupings with no skill (SP invested). The nature of many of the in-game maps dictates combat be at a certain ranges, and as long as those are relatively tight, the AR being the shortest rifle still gives it a command over most weapons in that range. This comes up in the newer research city installation, where people are rarely far enough away that anything longer range than an AR would be needed. There's a lot of performance tweaks you could make there (and to other weapons), and I don't think just opting for the easiest global solution will result in the best game. However, given the relative complexity of the issue and the continuing tweaks to hit detection, a percentage across the board damage debuff seems like a good weather test of how much something like global damage output accounts for the current TTK (as opposed to something like hit detection, AA, etc.). We can all agree that we wouldn't want hit detection to be worse, but if all the issues are coming from that direction it's a pretty case-by-case basis adjustment that's going to have to be done to account for TTK changes within each weapon. I already suggested the AR could have some changes, but there's weapons that have benefited more than others generally and you wouldn't want to be too hasty with it. 10% is interim. Competent balancing is required long-term. I trust CCP slightly more with respect to applying a global 10% nerf than I do nuanced weapon balancing on the fly since many of the issues I pointed out with the AR have existed and been pointed out long long ago. The bottom line is the game is extremely not-fun to play as-is, and a 10% debuff could be rolled out more quickly as more intelligent per-weapon changes are made over time (since that sort of balancing is apparently time-consuming). Join my cult.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3030	Posted - 2013.11.10 08:26:00 - [30] - Quote It's difficult to fully extricate hit-detection from AA, but there a was combination of engine/rendering related lag-type issues as well in the early uprising days. Join my cult.

Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3043	Posted - 2013.11.11 15:53:00 - [31] - Quote Talos Vagheitan wrote: Please see this post: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=120621&find=unread Just maybe crazy enough to work... I like the notion of adjusting the AA, but as a sole solution, here are my concerns with that: Much of the current issues aren't JUST AA-related. Take the most recent update. TTK went down a little bit more, but AA wasn't adjusted again. Hit-detection has seen upgrades though across several patches (including the most recent one). Even without AA, the fact that something like AR can be super-accurate when ADS with negligible recoil, dispersion, etc. means it loses next to no DPS when being operated properly - and that DPS is very very high. Adjusting AA would might keep newbie players from massacring people with MLT weapons, but skilled users would still be able to drop people very easily just because of the changes in hit-detection. This is one of the things that's more true of the AR and Ass-Scrambler than many of the other weapons. The output on the SMG might be nerfed sufficiently with just an AA adjustment, I'm not sure. Anyhow, the thrust of my point is that it is a confluence of issues causing TTK issues, which is why I'd be hesitant to endorse a thread that sums it up as "AR problems" or "AA problems." I think it's a combination of hit-detection, AA, and weapon qualities/traits (like recoil/dispersion/etc.) that aren't balanced against the former that are causing the current state of affairs. It's running into certain weapons that are overly influenced by these problems that makes it evident. Almost any weapon can benefit from the AA of course, and I think that's why it became such a poster-child for gun-game issues after 1.4. However, hit detection and weapon traits (like RoF, etc.) play a larger role in making weapons like the AR so godly. Join my cult.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3050	Posted - 2013.11.14 07:16:00 - [32] - Quote Not to "defend" AA, but wasn't there a Dev post about latency inherent in their server-side hit-detection, etc? It was something to the effect of needing a certain degree of AA server-side to compensate for the issues of players' client not always giving an accurate view of things. That's part of what I meant when I talked about the difficulty in extricating AA from hit-detection as an issue. It's not clear to me how much the two are enmeshed at the moment. Join my cult.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3053	Posted - 2013.11.15 13:28:00 - [33] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Relevant Ahh... 1.6 has definitely not improved things. Join my cult.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3053	Posted - 2013.11.17 15:52:00 - [34] - Quote I like to keep checking in here, but I heard that the word on the street is that it won't be addressed in anyway in 1.7. So, I suppose I'll be looking to see if anything gets changed in 1.8 later. As for now, I've sort of dropped playing because the game is just... not the sort of game I'd want to play - it's something else entirely. I was playing Borderlands 2, ME3 multiplayer, and EVE recently. I was struck a bit I suppose by how encounters change based on the relative strength of the target. In EVE, it's sort of expected that lighter craft don't do the damage to take down heavier craft. Battles between ships can be "relatively" time-consuming. ME3 has shooting grunts mostly, but the more dangerous enemies and mooks on higher difficulty can still take over a clip easily to down. Borderlands 2 kinda sticks you with a lot of strafing, firing, and reloading to take down individual targets. A character built in a certain way might be able to take a lot of punishment. I guess this all goes to say that I think I find those games (with longer TTK, to put it in other terms) more interesting combat-wise. Dust I think had more of this "protracted encounter" dynamic previously, especially on the higher end of player skill and gear. It now has more in common with a game like CoD where tanking is never a concern. It's very much about twitch sort of play. With AA, I think speed/reflexes aren't a big factor, it's mostly finding someone first and having the gear. If the devs would prefer that Dust be that kind of game, "Like CoD" where it's basically about quick bursts of fire killing pretty much anything with shorter encounters - I guess that's a design decision on their end? The audiences for the two types of games are often quite different though. It's a different type of game. CoD has a certain instant-gratification and very fast gameplay aspect: you fire, you kill, you die, you're back, repeat. It's not a thoughtful game. I think Dust and games that it might've been associated with previously (EVE, other MMOs, etc.) are meant to be based on more strategic gameplay that has longer encounters and incorporates things like "tanking", "healing", "supply", and "scouting". Those things are ultimately rendered irrelevant by gameplay analogous to CoD in Dust. Either design decision is valid I guess, though I frankly wouldn't see the point in training skills for marginal fraction-of-a-second gains over the course of months for a CoD style game. If Dust is moving in that direction as it seems to have been in the past few months, I know I don't want to play it. That said, I imagine there are a lot of people that prefer not to think about mechanics in the same way you might consider taking down a raid boss in an MMO (tanking, healing, support, builds, resists, etc.) as opposed to the more frantic/mindless process of a CoD-type game. So, failing actually addressing this topic in a meaningful way, here's what I'd ask: What is the ideal vision (after adjusting everything) for the gameplay in Dust? Is it meant to be a twitch-sort of game? Do you see it having more common with something like EVE/WoW/Everquest with respect to group dynamics and length/type of encounters, or something more like a Battlefield/Battlefront/CoD? If you'd call it a "hybrid" of MMO and Team-shooter, which do you intend to have it leaning towards more? What you intend the game to ultimately be would make the decision about whether or not I should care about the game much easier. Join my cult.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3062	Posted - 2013.11.19 13:15:00 - [35] - Quote Bleeeaaaaarggghhhhh Join my cult.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3066	Posted - 2013.11.21 12:41:00 - [36] - Quote You know as a certain sort of tactical/etc. gets tired of logging in, I can't help but wonder if the average player opinion on forums and so on becomes skewed towards the demographic that prefers the twitch style. Join my cult.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3071	Posted - 2013.11.22 12:46:00 - [37] - Quote And so it goes. Join my cult.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3074	Posted - 2013.11.24 03:21:00 - [38] - Quote Orca Amsel wrote: Nov 12 21:20:30 Orca_Amsel[CCP]Saberwing; any update on the low TTK? Nov 12 21:21:39 [CCP]SaberwingOrca_Amsel: No, and Wolfman is off sick I believe. The low TTK probably won't get tweaked in the immediate immediate future as we're gearing up for 1.7 release, but is definitely something being monitored, so don't worry. So, if you wanted to wait till next year to play Dust again... Join my cult.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3076	Posted - 2013.11.25 18:05:00 - [39] - Quote It would be nice to see some sort of indication that this is going to be addressed on some sort of timetable. Join my cult.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3080	Posted - 2013.11.25 23:45:00 - [40] - Quote Orca Amsel wrote: I think if they got rid of wolfman this game would instantly improve. I saw he was apparently sick from your IRC-paste. Did he do something else recently? Join my cult.

Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3082	Posted - 2013.11.27 19:42:00 - [41] - Quote TTK got called out for some sort of indeterminate review in the weekly feedback thread, though they linked to the IWS thread in General as opposed to this Feedback thread (not a huge deal, it just makes it seem like they pay less attention to Feedback since this thread has been here over a month longer than the one he made). I guess that makes it a waiting game, and it doesn't seem to imply any particular speed on getting a fix out. Join my cult.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3085	Posted - 2013.12.04 20:35:00 - [42] - Quote Not addressed in 1.7, obviously. However, it bears repeating, and it's likely there'll be some adjustment to the new rifles and adjusted ranges and other changes. Also, I would think the shield extender penalty would be a step in the other direction (though balancing shields and armor is an important goal). Join my cult.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3091	Posted - 2013.12.20 13:16:00 - [43] - Quote So, a whole new world of guns and vehicles now. It's been a couple weeks. How are people feeling about things I wonder? Or has the glitz of "new stuff" sort of glossed over everything? Join my cult.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3092	Posted - 2013.12.21 00:25:00 - [44] - Quote I got a chance to play the current build a bit. I'd say the TTK still needs work (lengthening), though there is a vague balance in the sense of all the rifles killing you quickly. I guess that makes sense in that they didn't really adjust things in this release, they just released content. There doesn't seem to be a huge gap in TTK from any of the rifles that I noticed... that is, a high level combat rifle, rail rifle, and scrambler will all kill you quickly. I'd assume the same is still true for Duvolles, but there's a sudden flourishing of variety with all the new guns. Before trying it on an alt with SP, I made a brand-new alt to try the guns before I spent SP. I discovered, however, that a brand new character doesn't have the ISK to afford the skillbooks Weaponry, Light Weapon Op, and a weapon skill at creation. It took two matches to get the ISK to afford to actually put a point in the new weapons and buy guns. By the third match I was out of battle academy (?!), and faced off against two full corp groups on a team with zero grouped people with my character that had literally two matches experience, 0 ISK beyond the three skill books and handful of guns I'd just bought. My team was redlined and stomped, as my character with only starter fits and standard rail/combat rifles was killed by people with Balac's. So, the current state of the NPE is basically a skullfucking. Great job there. TTK there was horrible, naturally. On an alt with SP the TTK is still very short, but it was "slightly" less lop-sided. You still die faster than you might in a game like CoD, in this case in a Heavy suit with 12 million SP. It was laughably easy to take down people with the new rifles there, and the game continues to have a air of "the person who sees the other person first will get the kill" (twitch gameplay) as opposed to any real significance of tanking or builds. That was the case before 1.7 as well of course. I glad that some weapon variety is getting out there, and that range of engagement is being played with more. The TTK is still abysmal. That's my take on 1.7. Join my cult.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3095	Posted - 2013.12.23 03:40:00 - [45] - Quote Hopefully this gets fixed in 1.8. Join my cult.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3098	Posted - 2013.12.30 17:43:00 - [46] - Quote The idea of expendable equipment is a little different in Dust than EVE, since an EVE player can presumably (even in a combat situation) die relatively infrequently. It's expected that a Dust player will die a few times a match, and there are mechanics in place to make death relatively unavoidable regardless of player choices. Several combat modes are predicated on expending large amounts of clones, and orbital strikes kill you regardless of skill allotment. I guess that's the difference between a game where you can presumably just kill npcs, deliver good, or whatever, and a game that only has a team deathmatch mode. It's the limited ways available to play and the centrality of expendable equipment that makes longer TTK so important. Join my cult.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3100	Posted - 2013.12.31 15:09:00 - [47] - Quote I understand completely. I'm already, "on-break" as it were. I didn't need more than a couple games in this build to see that it still had problems, and I can be off playing games that are less irritating/broken until they get around to fixing things. I just like to keep this topic on point here because I think people can lose sight of how much of an issue this is, and if the twitch gameplay becomes the new norm - there will be no fix. Join my cult.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3105	Posted - 2014.01.05 20:53:00 - [48] - Quote I think the new rifles improved the variety of gameplay somewhat, in that they add a certain "something" to the game in that respect. It's unfortunate that the game was without them for so long. I still think the TTK is pretty crap; I think the main difference is that you have more options to kill people very very quickly. I guess I already expounded on what I feel the current state of the game is 1.7 earlier though. It's sort of a broader problem, but the map design needs to shift and expand somewhat to make the longer ranges useful outside of the wide open spaces as well. Join my cult.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3127	Posted - 2014.01.11 04:25:00 - [49] - Quote I feel it necessary to add that TTK needs to be addressed... BEFORE you add a bunch of damage mods (commandos) and take away tanking bonuses from suits (logis). Join my cult.

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