Is this really another "All logis are the problem herp-derp" topic? Really?

Hope you know this idea has been discussed at least 100 times since Uprising released.

If I knew that, do you think I would've made a thread about it?

I honestly never saw the idea proposed, and my one search yielded people only talked about taking away the one Logi suit's sidearm.

Another way is to create a new category of weapons also known as Ultra-Light Rifle (UL for short). Basically the carbine version of an assault rifle. Shorter barrel makes it not as efficient at range and accurate as a regular assault rifle and doesnt hit as hard. Reduced recoil or higher RoF coupled with a bit more kick essentially takes the SMG and converts it into a primary weapon.

It can be a restricted weapon class for scouts and logis while assault/basic medium and heavies can use them as well as the regular light weapons

Basic light: UL
Scout: UL
Basic medium: UL, L
Assault: UL, L
Logistics: UL
Basic heavy: UL, L, H
Sentinel: UL, L, H
Commando: UL, L

Since I mentioned "new" it'll probably take CCP a year to make it happen.

If I knew that, do you think I would've made a thread about it?

I honestly never saw the idea proposed, and my one search yielded people only talked about taking away the one Logi suit's sidearm.

Once they nerf the Cal Logi and the legitimate good killers (not ones relying on the logi's HP) skill back into caldari assaults people will be calling them OP too. Especially the armor tankers who cry about shields being better than armor instead of calling for adjustment to contact nades, flaylocks, and MD that do like 130% against armor are now even more popular because of the splash damage fix.

well this isn't new at all unfortunately, its been argued several times before, hell, i made a thread that blew up into a "logis are OP thread" and this was eventually brought up as an idea to "fix" them..... its stupid. Taking away the primary does nothing to fix the overall problem that only ONE logi has to begin with. The calogis excessive shield tanking. How does having a proto SMG make me any less effective at tanking 670 damage? It doesn't...... and my combat effectiveness is only restricted at long range now..... but what people don't consider is how the Proto SMG, or even Scrambler pistols are both beastly. The SMG especially is like a mini HMG. So yeah..... the problem isn't with logi suits in general, its with the calogi, and removing the primary weapon does nothing to solve the problem people have with that suit to begin with.

The problem is the Caldari logi, its overpowered. With all skills maxed out: A prototype Caldari logi can tank more HP while holding a Duvolle AR than an prototype heavy sentinel with a boundless HMG, AND the Cal logi is still faster than the sentinel when they are both fully tanked like that.
They need to lose a low slot, and gain an equipment slot at prototype level; they have 9 module slot, coupled with the shield extender bonus makes their HP far too much. I would prefer if their bonus was a CPU reduction on shield extender rather than an efficacy boost.

The Gallente and Minmatar ones are perfectly fine. They sacrifice speed, a bit of HP, shield recharge, and a sidearm to gain more equipment slots, and 1 more module slot compared to their assault counterpart; seems fair to me.

The Amarr one is underpowered for 2 reasons. At prototype, it scarifices the gain of a module slot AND the gain of an equipment to gain a sidearm, only one of these gains should have been sacrificed for the sidearm; it is the least tankable, slowest logi.
At advanced it needs to get a sidearm or an extra equipment slot; for some reason despite having the least slots out of all ADV logis and not having a sidearm, it has only 2 equipment slots while ALL other ADV logis have 3.

In depth analysis of all the racial logis compared to each other, and their assault counterparts, and solutions. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=93653

No.
I don't know about Minmatar, but Gallente logi IS better than Gallente assault.
They lose a SMALL bit of HP, but gain a low slot.
One basic plate is already double than what they lose.
Gallente don't need shield recharge.
Sidearm isn't really needed when you have an AR with 60 bullets in a clip and can dish out over 3000 damage per clip.
Speed difference of 0.3 isn't even noticeable, and once you put plates on that differences closes in.

So let me get this straight.
They lose barely nothing, but gain 3 equipment slots?
HOW is that fair in your mind?
They should have even less module slots than assaults, or should have the light weapon taken away.

Say no all you want, but they are SUPPORT, they shouldn't have the same firepower or survivability as an ASSAULT.

You want my light weapon? Everyone has to give up their equipment slot so logis can be your battlefield butler. On top of that, I'm speccing into the flaylock and I better damn sight not see anyone crying to have SMGs nerfed. God forbid people being capable to kill something in a goddamned FPS.

Nope.
You don't need anymore advantages, you already have 3 more equipment than any assault and more slots.

Also, you just admitted you're a logi, which explains your defense towards them.
Everyone and their mother agrees that logi's are the better assaults.

You can all go suck a duck trying to mess with logistics suits!

Stop trying to get logies nerfed because you think assault suits suck, find constructive ideas for assault suits rather than destructive ideas for logistics suits. Its like trying to fix your broken clock by smashing all the ones that work and set them to the same time.

In conclusion, SUCK A DUCK haters!

Except Amarr Logis. I can't believe how most choose to ignore Amarr logis

The problem that assault sucks balls IS BECAUSE of the logi.
If logi gets nerfed, assault suits get buffed in a way.
If you buff the assault suits you might create a new problem.
Like it was suggested to give assault suits a 10% damage bonus, but now suits will drop EVEN QUICKER.

Amarr Logi / hread.

HTFU
ADAPT OR DIIIIIIIIIIIIIE

Two 'S' slots?
\thread

That's... totally not hypocritical

"Oh yeah, lets just nerf these guys because we failed to adapt and then tell them to adapt " - Dust Forum's Logic

No.
I don't know about Minmatar, but Gallente logi IS better than Gallente assault.
They lose a SMALL bit of HP, but gain a low slot.
One basic plate is already double than what they lose.
Gallente don't need shield recharge.
Sidearm isn't really needed when you have an AR with 60 bullets in a clip and can dish out over 3000 damage per clip.
Speed difference of 0.3 isn't even noticeable, and once you put plates on that differences closes in.

So let me get this straight.
They lose barely nothing, but gain 3 equipment slots?
HOW is that fair in your mind?
They should have even less module slots than assaults, or should have the light weapon taken away.

Say no all you want, but they are SUPPORT, they shouldn't have the same firepower or survivability as an ASSAULT.

So, a few extra nano-hives make them better assaults how exactly? That's not the stupidest thing I've heard all day

And yes, they should have more surviveability than an assault, at least HP wise, or do you think think they're not going to get shot at just because they're "support"?

Nope.
You don't need anymore advantages, you already have 3 more equipment than any assault and more slots.

Also, you just admitted you're a logi, which explains your defense towards them.
Everyone and their mother agrees that logi's are the better assaults.

Extra nanohives that heal + extra health + ability to dish out same amounts of damage? How is that not better exactly?

And generally people shoot back at the people who are shooting at them. And support characters can heal from behind cover.

extra health

And generally people shoot back at the people who are shooting at them.

You have to usually put a weapon away to heal.

He's talking about repper nano-hives, something that's very rare, but apparently that's what makes all logis better...

You mean the things that any suit class with equipment can use too?

A sidearm can be used at a primiary BUT much defensive power must be sacrificed to make that visable as a logi,to the point where they have scout health.


Just lower the shield bonus from calilogi from 5% to 2% per lvl,giving a max of 10% bonus shield at max instead of flipping 25%

[quote=Johnny Guilt]If anything, sidearm primary frees up more CPU/PG for better equipment/mods and/or MORE tank. Logi should be more concerned with tank and equipment than with DPS, if they're reduced to scout level health they're being made useless. Logi NEED tank to be able to tank long enough to evade and return support fire if need be, they don't need uber combat ability, that should be the domain of the assault.

...having more slots, more CPU and more PG equals more health and more damage.

The intention is for people to use that CPU and PG on equipment to play a support role. Instead its used on shield and armor boosts to become a tank.

more damage.

What crack are you smoking?

If anything, sidearm primary frees up more CPU/PG for better equipment/mods and/or MORE tank. Logi should be more concerned with tank and equipment than with DPS, if they're reduced to scout level health they're being made useless. Logi NEED tank to be able to tank long enough to evade and return support fire if need be, they don't need uber combat ability, that should be the domain of the assault.

Too bad most of the scrubs who are "Logi" are just so hung up on being "combat viable" that they think they can't run support without a precious light weapon.

It can be done, they're just too afraid to admit it.

Whatever though, I'm done arguing about it, the so-called Logi who'll come out of the woodwork when they're afraid that they might get the Light Weapon slot swapped for a Sidearm won't be happy until we've got a fully homogenized medium frame.

Having enough slots to just barely match an assault suit's base stats =/= more slots

Just a passing idea... There's the obvious running issue of Logi players playing as beefed up assault characters. There is little incentive for a Logi to hang back and actually play his role as support because they are simply better at eating bullets and dishing out damage than Assault dropsuits are.

So... why not take away their Light Weapon slot and replace it with a Sidearm one?

Hear me out...
Logi suits as of now can be loaded out to take a ton of damage, and I'm actually ok with that. Generally they're expected to (or at least are supposed to be expected to) be the medic/support role, so it makes sense that they should be able to eat a few extra rounds (see: Logi LAV if it were used as intended).

With just a side arm slot they could definitely get a nice SMG... or Godlock until that's nerfed a bit, get some damage mods and be able to defend themselves if needed. But their weapons wouldn't, and shouldn't, really stand up to assault players who are supposed to be tougher on the battlefield than they are. Logi's should be behind the Assaults and Heavies hitting them with the repair tool, dropping ammo, active scanning ahead, etc.

It's a balance idea, feel free to poke holes in it.

why you punish scout?haven't We been pimp slapped enough for one year?

And that's why the conversations about logi in this build have been about how they're barely able to stand up to assault players.

More like it's been about the same goddamned nerf witch hunt since beta. I saw someone go 17-2 with a plasma cannon, are people going to cry for that to be nerfed next?

Yeah no how do you expect for a logi suit to revive you if you die and has no firepower to clear out the area so some enemy scrub doesnt farm you body for kills?

A logi suit should have more HP while a assault suit needs more fire power, this means what you need is a damage bonus to assault suits, not a nerf to logi suits.

Generally accepted OP is totally based off of 'this one time I saw a guy manage to do well" and not "across the board, this appears to be a persistent problem."

And that's why the conversations about logi in this build have been about how they're barely able to stand up to assault players.

Which medic goes running into a hot zone with no cover fire to save people.

I never liked this argument.

And you dont have to revive, you can choose to die and pop another clone if an area is overrun.

Which medic goes running into a hot zone with no cover fire to save people.

I never liked this argument.

And you dont have to revive, you can choose to die and pop another clone if an area is overrun.

The medic that finishes off the guy(s) who killed their teammate so they can revive. You take away our light weapon and see how many times you'll get picked up.

I find that just BS. Logis should be specced for support that doesn't include tanking. Yes Logis should have survivability but not the tanking we see with Caldari Logis. They should be SUPPORT not a damn mobile bullet sponge. Not scout health but about the survivability of any medium suit. The problem with Logis is that they are given A LOT of slots in high, low, and equipment. Logis should mostly have more equipment slots. Equipment to benefit the team not hoarding shield and armor modules so they can tank with their weapon.

No, it's usually something about their none-extistant higher EHP, that only cal-logis actually have. There's also always a lot of people claiming all suits are OP, but never actually explaing how or why. Kind of like you, you just throw out random stats that are better than the assaults, and say "that's why", without explaining how those stats make them better at "slaying".

Heavies have more health than assaults, are they better slayers too now?

Oh, come on. It's been discussed to death on here, but now I'm just making it up?

Logistics suits can do anything as well, or better than other classes (besides carrying heavy weapons). They can spec to be as fast as scout suits, they can have all the same damage buffs, shield and armor buffs, rechargers as the other classes and more.

How often do you see a logi actually playing their role, healing up teammates, reviving, using scanners, etc.? Never. People are spec'ing into logi so they can be better than assault players at being assault players.

Oh, come on. It's been discussed to death on here, but now I'm just making it up?

Logistics suits can do anything as well, or better than other classes (besides carrying heavy weapons). They can spec to be as fast as scout suits, they can have all the same damage buffs, shield and armor buffs, rechargers as the other classes and more.

How often do you see a logi actually playing their role, healing up teammates, reviving, using scanners, etc.? Never. People are spec'ing into logi so they can be better than assault players at being assault players.

Nope. Logis being "OP" have been discussed to death, that is true, but no one ever gives reasons why. Go ahead, you can be the first, start with the Amarr and Gallente suits.

Here's a good fix:

Un-gimp the assault suits (and also give them back their second equipment slot at proto level).

Not going to do much for the current crop of calogis, but future ones will be swayed.

I almost want to hear how the Minmatar logi is OP first. I feel like there's this uber fitting I haven't discovered yet.

I'll post the numbers when I get home and have the game in front of me.

And the discussion isn't straight 'OP', its that logistics are acting as assault instead of acting as logistic. It's OP in that they can literally do anything in the game (besides carry heavy weapons), and rarely its the medic/supply/scanner/drop uplink end of things.

Do you really, honestly feel that logistics players are playing the game as logistics players, or are they playing as assault players?

Sooo, your argument is that you're butthurt over a support class being able to perform better at assault than the assault class... in a FPS?

I'll post the numbers when I get home and have the game in front of me.

And the discussion isn't straight 'OP', its that logistics are acting as assault instead of acting as logistic. It's OP in that they can literally do anything in the game (besides carry heavy weapons), and rarely its the medic/supply/scanner/drop uplink end of things.

Do you really, honestly feel that logistics players are playing the game as logistics players, or are they playing as assault players?

Sooo, your argument is that you're butthurt over a support class being able to kill... in a FPS?

I'm pointing out that the supposed "support role" is loading up on health and damage and acting as a beefed up assault role instead of playing their role on the battlefield as a healer/resupplier.

The medic that finishes off the guy(s) who killed their teammate so they can revive. You take away our light weapon and see how many times you'll get picked up.

I'll post the numbers when I get home and have the game in front of me.

And the discussion isn't straight 'OP', its that logistics are acting as assault instead of acting as logistic. It's OP in that they can literally do anything in the game (besides carry heavy weapons), and rarely its the medic/supply/scanner/drop uplink end of things.

Do you really, honestly feel that logistics players are playing the game as logistics players, or are they playing as assault players?

Some of us are doing both.

That's kind of my issue with the whole thing. It's that Logi can do both. Heavy can't play as assault, assault can't play as logi or heavy, scout certainly can't play as assault or logi or heavy, but a logi can play as 3 of the 4 classes with the right spec.

I love how people say that the gallente logi isn't OP because putting on armor plates make them slow, But they don't realize that the ferroscale plates have no movement penalty and have 60 HP at complex which allows them to stack 5 of them which would give them 555 armor (with core armor at lvl 5) and have 5hp/s regen with no movement penalty and allow them to stack damage mods at the same time, yeah thats not OP

That's kind of my issue with the whole thing. It's that Logi can do both. Heavy can't play as assault, assault can't play as logi or heavy, scout certainly can't play as assault or logi or heavy, but a logi can play as 3 of the 4 classes with the right spec.

Read the entire post before commenting

That's kind of my issue with the whole thing. It's that Logi can do both. Heavy can't play as assault, assault can't play as logi or heavy, scout certainly can't play as assault or logi or heavy, but a logi can play as 3 of the 4 classes with the right spec.

Ferroscale is still armor and therefore still sucks. 5HP per second? that's tootally going to save them from a duvvole that does 40 dmg per bullet, who knows how many of those in a second

BTW, it's been mathematically proven that a shield extender is better than a damage module, and that's if all you're shots land. So yeah... armor sucks.

So explain to us, why should a logi be restricted to side-arm, but not scouts, who y'know, are designed for "scouting"?

Why should a scout be a better killer than the logi?

So explain to us, why should a logi be restricted to side-arm, but not scouts, who y'know, are designed for "scouting"?

Why should a scout be a better killer than the logi?

I did.
I addressed the core problem that I have with the assault suits/logi suits.

It's cool that you disagree with me and all, but your reasoning is "Logi isn't that good compared to" my reasoning is "logistic suits can act as assault suits if they want, which doesn't make sense to me." I'm failing to see the point of the two different medium suit specializations when one of them is interchangeable, and the other is not.

Still waiting to hear an actual defense of why Logistics players should be as good as, just about as good as, or sometimes better at Assault suits than Assault players, with the added bonus of being able to swap to a medic build of the same suit if they want, when Assault players don't have that option.

There "trade off" for logisitics is the lack of a side arm, which in practical terms, is a very subtle one given how many options they comparatively have.

Still waiting to hear an actual defense of why Logistics players should be as good as, just about as good as, or sometimes better at Assault suits than Assault players, with the added bonus of being able to swap to a medic build of the same suit if they want, when Assault players don't have that option.

It was big enough for the amarr logi to lose an equipment slot and 60 HP, seems like CCP values them more than the players do.

And sorry, but you're one asking for changes, you won't get a defense until you actually give reasons for why your changes are necessary, it's your job to prove a point here, not ours

Oh, come on. It's been discussed to death on here, but now I'm just making it up?

Logistics suits can do anything as well, or better than other classes (besides carrying heavy weapons). They can spec to be as fast as scout suits, they can have all the same damage buffs, shield and armor buffs, rechargers as the other classes and more.

How often do you see a logi actually playing their role, healing up teammates, reviving, using scanners, etc.? Never. People are spec'ing into logi so they can be better than assault players at being assault players.

I have played nothing but Logi since started shortly after the open beta. I rep, resupply, and revive all the time. I more often then not have my rep tool out instead of my AR. You assume that 'all' Logis are not doing their jobs, just because you think otherwise.

it negates the benefit of splitting off from basic to assault, instead of basic to logi.

And what benefit is that exactly?
Their ****** bonuses are a waste of SP, all of them.

Giving assaults a damage bonus would solve everything

Edit: Solve everything except the heavies and scouts even shittier bonuses

And what benefit is that exactly?
Their ****** bonuses are a waste of SP, all of them.

Giving assaults a damage bonus would solve everything

Wait did someone actually claim Gallente Logi suits to be OP because of Ferroscale plates, which are inferior to Complex Shield mods, and Basic Armor Plates? Standard Gallente Logi suit is trash, Advanced is barely any better and is inferior to Min and Cal Logis, so proto is the only one worth noting. And it is slower than Assaults and Min Logi, even slower if your using any plate other than Ferroscale Plates, which is inferior to the other available plates and prevents you from using proto EQ, less bulky then Cal with terrible resistances compared to Shield tankers, and cost upward 200,000 ISK per suit.

....the benefit of being able to play multiple roles on the battlefield via different suit loadouts as opposed to only being able to fulfill one because of slot restrictions?
How many times do I have to reiterate that?

An assault damage buff is basically the same idea, just a different approach at it. I'm not opposed to that totally either. I just feel it needs to be hammered in that logis should logi.

Your name's Lebowski, Lebowski. Your wife is Bunny.

I wasnt agreeing with the OP.

I questioned the logic of why Logi needs to have more HP than assault

Also - how is your little quip even describing what I said - hot zone, not secured area; area overrun.

No you sound like you want super logi to save the day - not tactical logi supporting squad.

I'm not "butthurt". (third grade? fourth grade? enjoying your summer break? )

I'm pointing out that the supposed "support role" is loading up on health and damage and acting as a beefed up assault role instead of playing their role on the battlefield as a healer/resupplier.

What's so hard to understand about that argument? This isn't a "OMG NERF DA OP LOGI" thread. This is a "how can we get the medics to act as medics?" thread.

Still waiting to hear an actual defense of why Logistics players should be as good as, just about as good as, or sometimes better at Assault suits than Assault players, with the added bonus of being able to swap to a medic build of the same suit if they want, when Assault players don't have that option.

Your anecdote doesn't erase the very real situation in the game. Just because you do perform the logi role doesn't mean that you have to because of the class you decided to spec into.

I'm not assuming that 'all logis are just glorified assaults!" I'm saying that they can be, and shouldn't be able to because it negates the benefit of splitting off from basic to assault, instead of basic to logi.

I'm still waiting on some stat comparisons on how every logi is better than their assault counterpart.

All logis are innocent until proven logi

As long as nobody invokes "Stand Your Ground."

You were wrong when you claimed that all logis are better assaults when there's only one logi being abused because of its racial bonus, and it sure as hell isn't the Minmatar's racial.

Here you will find video of someone trying to prove your statement wrong.

Here you will find video of someone trying to prove your statement wrong.

His hacking bonus is relevant to his use in flaylocks how exactly?

Not that Flaylocks are as OP as people claim they are

CUT

Here you will find video of someone trying to prove your statement wrong.

Just a passing idea... There's the obvious running issue of Logi players playing as beefed up assault characters. There is little incentive for a Logi to hang back and actually play his role as support because they are simply better at eating bullets and dishing out damage than Assault dropsuits are.

So... why not take away their Light Weapon slot and replace it with a Sidearm one?

Hear me out...
Logi suits as of now can be loaded out to take a ton of damage, and I'm actually ok with that. Generally they're expected to (or at least are supposed to be expected to) be the medic/support role, so it makes sense that they should be able to eat a few extra rounds (see: Logi LAV if it were used as intended).

With just a side arm slot they could definitely get a nice SMG... or Godlock until that's nerfed a bit, get some damage mods and be able to defend themselves if needed. But their weapons wouldn't, and shouldn't, really stand up to assault players who are supposed to be tougher on the battlefield than they are. Logi's should be behind the Assaults and Heavies hitting them with the repair tool, dropping ammo, active scanning ahead, etc.

It's a balance idea, feel free to poke holes in it.

So you dislike the fact that Logis and specialize however they wish?

The 'issue' with Logis is that the game current rewards everyone playing like assaults

I'm still waiting on some stat comparisons on how every logi is better than their assault counterpart.

There really isn't a way to nerf logis without handicapping those of us who actually run a logi suit for the logistic reasons. Yes, I get kills, but I res and and rep and drop links and hives. Not to mention remotes or prox.

As it was pointed out earlier, sometimes a logi needs to finish off the guy who just dropped the teammate who is now in need of res and reps. Should a logi have his hands tied behind his back because its not fair dying to a logi? That turns into the logi dying as well. Sounds like a great idea! (sarcasm)

Easiest solution to Caldari logi = carry flux grenades.

Easiest solution to Caldari logi = carry flux grenades.

I can continue to reiterate it for you, but I feel like you're not bothering to read.

Funny, thats like saying: Easiest Solution to Every Other Suit = Carry Locus grenades....

Newsflash, after you Flux the guys shields down, you will come to realise that behind those 667 shields is 350-400 armor seeing it has 4 low slots aswell...

Just a passing idea... There's the obvious running issue of Logi players playing as beefed up assault characters. There is little incentive for a Logi to hang back and actually play his role as support because they are simply better at eating bullets and dishing out damage than Assault dropsuits are.

So... why not take away their Light Weapon slot and replace it with a Sidearm one?

Hear me out...
Logi suits as of now can be loaded out to take a ton of damage, and I'm actually ok with that. Generally they're expected to (or at least are supposed to be expected to) be the medic/support role, so it makes sense that they should be able to eat a few extra rounds (see: Logi LAV if it were used as intended).

With just a side arm slot they could definitely get a nice SMG... or Godlock until that's nerfed a bit, get some damage mods and be able to defend themselves if needed. But their weapons wouldn't, and shouldn't, really stand up to assault players who are supposed to be tougher on the battlefield than they are. Logi's should be behind the Assaults and Heavies hitting them with the repair tool, dropping ammo, active scanning ahead, etc.

It's a balance idea, feel free to poke holes in it.

Here's a good fix:

Un-gimp the assault suits (and also give them back their second equipment slot at proto level).

Not going to do much for the current crop of calogis, but future ones will be swayed.