The base stats and recharge delay/rate are easily overcome by the extra slots these logis have. Okay so SP/ISK is more but if you're running logissault, you don't need to use the equipment slots. The sidearm, as I've previously mentioned is hardly a loss when many people using AR/SCR don't ever use their sidearm anyway.

My point is that these logis can wield exactly the same weapons and have more tank than their assault equivalents and something needs to be done to change this. Marston is in favour of removing some tank, whilst I'm in favour of removing some DPS. Okay, so I know from experience how deadly the ishukone SMG is but only in CQC within about 25m. Like I said earlier, most logis don't use sidearms atm; they're using AR/SCR because those weapons have enough ammo to not need a back up weapon and you can still kill people at range. Making this change from light weapon to sidearm would stop logis being able to be as killer as they are right now.

If after making that change they're still killing too much, then we can talk about reducing the tank but I'm steadfast in believing that no tank = dead logi.

The base stats and recharge delay/rate are easily overcome by the extra slots these logis have. Okay so SP/ISK is more but if you're running logissault, you don't need to use the equipment slots. The sidearm, as I've previously mentioned is hardly a loss when many people using AR/SCR don't ever use their sidearm anyway.

My point is that these logis can wield exactly the same weapons and have more tank than their assault equivalents and something needs to be done to change this. Marston is in favour of removing some tank, whilst I'm in favour of removing some DPS. Okay, so I know from experience how deadly the ishukone SMG is but only in CQC within about 25m. Like I said earlier, most logis don't use sidearms atm; they're using AR/SCR because those weapons have enough ammo to not need a back up weapon and you can still kill people at range. Making this change from light weapon to sidearm would stop logis being able to be as killer as they are right now.

If after making that change they're still killing too much, then we can talk about reducing the tank but I'm steadfast in believing that no tank = dead logi.

Then why not give assaults damage bonuses to their racial weapons so they straight up out DPS logis since they're supposed to be assaults?

Then why not give assaults damage bonuses to their racial weapons so they straight up out DPS logis since they're supposed to be assaults?

Your under the ussumption that Proto SMG's lack range..... they don't. You just haven't been killed by them enough and/or otherwise didn't spec deep enough into them to realize what their really like.

Because adding damage bonuses changes the way weapons are used just like the old sharpshooter made it so that weapons could be used in ways that they weren't designed to.

You'd also need to totally rebalance the scout and heavy suits with these changes in mind otherwise they'd be hopelessly outgunned by both assaults and logis. We can buff 3 types of suits or we can nerf 1 - I know which of those options I expect to cause least problems.

Because adding damage bonuses changes the way weapons are used just like the old sharpshooter made it so that weapons could be used in ways that they weren't designed to.

You'd also need to totally rebalance the scout and heavy suits with these changes in mind otherwise they'd be hopelessly outgunned by both assaults and logis. We can buff 3 types of suits or we can nerf 1 - I know which of those options I expect to cause least problems.

Also, the heavy suit is fine. It's the lack of heavy weapons and racial suits that's ruining the class. When we get more heavy suits and weapons, the class can be balanced amongst itself instead of being scaled down to the standards of medium suits and light weapons. Scouts need cloaking, plain and simple. Just like the sentinel, scouts are suffering for being groomed for something that's still on the drawing board. In fact, if you look at how much a joke balancing is right now, you can pretty much see that the devs are digging themselves a deeper hole by trying to establish proper balance in an unfinished game.

and I just don't think I should be forced out of my playstyle, because you think your playstyle is the only one a logistics suit should cover...... go figure huh?

Not true, the Heavy suit needs a buff no matter what we do to other suits. Its work that needs to be done anyway so theres no point in not doing it. The scout is already outgunned by every other suit. That's why its a speed tanking suit..... the speed compensates for the other suits having so much more health. So You would only have to Buff 2 suits, rather then nerfing 1. And one of those 2 suits are a necessity (the heavy)..... So really your either going to buff 1 suit or nerf the other..... its even.

Looking at how slow scouts are makes me miss Replication more and more

You want to nerf a whole suit class based on one racial suit, what's the difference?

lol, remember strafing? Those were good times.

Did I not already concede that we should only change the gal and cal logis to start with?

I'm still not convinced that reducing the tank a little will have any impact on logis being killing machines. It will just make them more cautious about going into firefights with the comrades they're supposed to be supporting.

Either you reduce the tank or you reduce the dps.

Note - increasing the dps of other classes is equivalent to decreasing the dps of all logis, thus the class-wide nerf you're worried about.

NOT "no tank" reduced tank....... reduced tank is what we need. 650+ shield is TOO MUCH. Chop off the 25% shield extender bonus and that chops off about 100 HP right there. I manage a suit with 550 HP which is.... decent. but not a lot. the LCK0 can fit that much plus about 100 in shields alone..... A caldari logis shields is more health then my suits EHP. Take away that bonus and BOOM the suit is way more beatable. Take away one more high slot and what you have is "balance"...... lol, its as simple that. Your under the ussumption that Proto SMG's lack range..... they don't. You just haven't been killed by them enough and/or otherwise didn't spec deep enough into them to realize what their really like.

I just feel like it's far too easy to make a combat logi that also has the versatility of a support character. The assault suits seem to be just about fine right now, with scouts and heavies being on the lower end of the totem pole in general. Currently the loldari logi is a problem, so fixing that and seeing how the rest of the logi's play out is the first step.

It just really feels like you want to have maximum killing efficiency, which still makes me wonder why you choose logistics over assault

How much SP do you have invested in logistic equipment? Bro, do you even logi? I am betting you dont even fill your equipment slots.

Gallente Logistics Bonus: 5% reduction to equipment PG/CPU usage per level

How much SP do you have invested in logistic equipment? Bro, do you even logi?

Proto nanocircuitry lets me use proto needles, and hives. So I run the proto triage nanohive, proto gauged nanohive, proto needle, and standard drop uplink. This makes me a utility player for me squad because im a mobile CRU, I can Rep them for close to 100 hp/ second, I can give them crazy amounts of ammo, AND I can pick them up if they die to full health (which is a heavies dream by the way). My equipment upped my squads entire survivability by a considerable amount yesterday, soley because I was keeping us alive. The whole "slaying" thing comes after I set up shop for my squad.

Are you kidding me....... I have level five nanocircuitry, and my priority right now is drop uplinks, followed up by hacking speed (cuz one of our corp members has hacking maxed and he de-hacks contested nodes as fast as we normally hack a node).

reppers are near pointless and ill explain why, because apparently I have to prove that I run logi to you.......

Proto nanocircuitry lets me use proto needles, and hives. So I run the proto triage nanohive, proto gauged nanohive, proto needle, and standard drop uplink. This makes me a utility player for my squad because im a mobile CRU, I can Rep them for close to 100 hp/ second, I can give them crazy amounts of ammo, AND I can pick them up if they die to full health (which is a heavies dream by the way). My equipment upped my squads entire survivability by a considerable amount yesterday, soley because I was keeping us alive. The whole "slaying" thing comes after I set up shop for my squad.

I enjoy this type of playstyle because I can let the nanohives do all the work for me. Remote reppers are stupid because 1.) You can't rep yourself with them, and 2.) you have to take one gun out of the fight to focus on 1-2 people with it..... Where as if I use the Triage nanohive I can rep everyone without effectively taking me out of the fight.

Sure someone could flux my stuff to oblivion, but that's why I have 3 triage nanohives, and 4 gauged ones...... AND that's the hardcounter to what I do anyway.

So in short, yes I do logi, yes I can kill people too if I need to. The scores I got yesterday was the product of combined teamwork. Its not like I was the only logi in our squad (we had two), and its not like I was soloing stomping people (we had 6 in our squad). Now don't quote me saying "but you said you were 1 v 1 ing people" yeah, that happens no matter how close nit your squad is...... If it spawns us on opposites sides of the map then chances are im going to have to fight through somebody. But yeah..... that's my answer to that. Sorry I don't represent a "pure" support role the way you want me to......

So by "set up shop" you mean switch out from your support build to your slayer build at a supply depot. After splitting your SP up to accommodate for those two separate playstyles, right?

So by "set up shop" you mean switch out from your support build to your slayer build at a supply depot. After splitting your SP up to accommodate for those two separate playstyles, right?

I was not kidding you.

I'm going to leave this here, as I think I've stated my case pretty clearly and have nothing more to add. I'd like to thank Marston and Cosgar for the constructive debate - it's been really fun going through all this nitty gritty with you both, even though we disagree on the solution, at least we agree there's a problem. Hopefully CCP will go over this thread with a really fine tooth comb and decide what ideas can aid with their own vision of how the (gal/cal) logi suits should be balanced.

Cheers all.