My point was he wanted to play an assault style. 40-2 or whatever is slay style. It would be cool if logistics suits were only really good at support. I am not saying no offensive capability, but if slayers are choosing the support suit, something is wrong.

And we're just saying that the tradeoff isn't high enough if you wish to retain the ability to operate as a slayer. Scouts got freaking shafted, and they don't whine half has hard as killer bees do

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=785193#post785193

I kept challenging people to give reasons for why the other logis are OP, not one person has been able to provide legit reasons for why all logis are in need of a nerf.

Who's bitching? I literally can't take this game seriously right now. All I'm saying is I see a LOT of yellow these days, and they're usually hauling in the kills, soaking up the WP, and playing with all the equipment they can handle. Seriously, I see logis locking down areas better than heavies

:/

Dat Rep hive bro.

Scrambler rifle or assault, your pick.

Also, the original post literally describes what I just mentioned, and what I see a lot. I don't see logis using their hives to protect their allies, I see them used to protect themselves while they dish out crazy dps with very good survivability. I've heard mixed things about the scanner, but that can greatly increase survivability when locking down an area.

No one's asked you for the fitting? Can I haz please?

How is that the only thing that can do that?

How about giving Assaults proper bonuses (damage bonus for example) and/or making Logis not able to tank as much as they can?

Edit: Also swap the shield recharge delays between Assaults and Logis. Logis shouldn't have lower delays than Assaults.

Running around with a repair tool healing heavies is not the only thing Logis should be capable of. They should be capable of supporting their team with gunfire as well, and not only from a sidearm.

Why do ppl always forget the logi armor repair.. That like another slot ontop of the two extra the logi has compared to assault...

Has nothing to do why it shouldnt be liste with PRO / CON s

Anyone can train repair skill

You cant say logi are supposed to do some things then argue that they should be able to implement other modules to do other roles as well.

That is the point!!!!

Because they took all the equipment slots from other classes they have said others shouldnt repair.

Take high and low slots from logis and force them to choose and play differently.

Reassign some of the gear to equipment slots eg. Hacker module.

I am sick of the double talk on logis should be able to do whatever - stick them in their proper class because CCP sure did that to the others.

Logis are supposed to tank damage so that they can keep supporting their team - that's why they have so many slots; not so that they can stack damage mods and fight just as hard as assaults. They are support suits, not frontline. And a sidearm is perfectly capable of supporting the team when needed, the rest of the time they should be repping and resupplying and reviving.

Logis should not just be assaults with more equipment slots, which is what they are because missing a secondary weapon slot means nothing.

And yes, the other suits need more applicable bonuses to their roles but that doesn't mean that the current logi suits are fine as they are.

Yes we should adjust all the other suits because logi is unbalanced. Seems legit.

Now you are just playing semantics - So as a scout I should be on here lobbying for more slots to "dampen" and "scan" and then if I got them I should turn around and load up with shield extenders and more catalysers or armour mods and become a real commando

And if this game had no roles/classes then why dont we just have light medium and heavy and be done with all the other crap - build to your hearts content.

Disingenuous!!

Most logis don't play with sidearms - the fact you got killed by one on that occasion is not a general pattern. The mere fact that you were killed by a logi with an SMG should be a sign to every other logi out there crying not to take away the light weapon slot because they won't be able to kill anything that they are wrong.

The general pattern is that most logis use ARs or SCRs because they have a buck-load of ammo and don't run out of rounds too quickly, thus negating the need for a sidearm.

Reducing logis eHP would be truly breaking for them. They need to be able to tank so they can stand alongside their squad repping them while they kill the guys shooting at you.

All the time logis have access to light weapons, they are encouraged to try to kill at the detriment of support. Changing the light weapon slot for a sidearm slot would force them to focus on support and only focus on killing when the situation warrants it.

And field medics in real war situations are not kitted out with the same offensive equipment as regular infantry. Carrying medical supplies and equipment means less room for big bulky weapons. Tell me where exactly your merc is managing to fit a nanohive, uplink, armor repper and needles alongside his grenades and assault rifle?

Cosgar..... that's the exact argument im trying to fight right now. People are so blinded by Caldari logi spam that they claim all logi's are OP, which is the stupidest thing ive ever seen.

Now you're just being facetious.

The animations and models for changing weapons are bad but you can imagine that a heavy slings a HMG behind him when he takes out his SMG.

So let's take baby steps.

Fix the loldari suit, then we can see how everything plays out from there.

Don't get too excited, optimism isn't taken kindly to 'round these parts.

I've always felt that logistics had a bit too much wonder to their unit, if you catch my drift Anyways, we're supposed to be getting a dev blog today about 1.2, so let's see if anything is mentioned in there.

Don't be hatin'

CCP likes the idea, at least to some extent

They also are willing to follow "The Rule of Cool" as indicated by them working on Speeders

I said they "like" the idea, not, Uprising 1.2 HAS DUAL WIELDZ OLMGAS

In my honest opinion..... the only reason that gun hasn't been nerfed is because of how underused it is. To this date, ive been killed four times by that gun. And its not because the gun sucks, its because ive only ever fought five or ten people using it....... LOL at a sidearm that can out beaf my proto AR.

I've already stated that the dual flaylock is really my only concern, and that's an issue with the flaylock, NOT dual wield. Flaylock should have noticeable splash with strong direct damage, not strong of both. We'll see how CCP takes it, there's no way it's going to stay as is for long. If it had powerful direct damage, then adding a little weapon sway and spread would really negate anything other than close ranged alpha, which you'd have to be careful of splash which translates into player skill.

Just to set straight anyone who thinks that I'm 'trying to nerf logis to death'; I'm not. I just want to make the OP logis less OP. Marston has already agreed that confining these logis to only sidearms would not kill logis off. That's good consensus. As has been said, let's not wield the nerf hammer, so go step by step. If after changing the LCKs and LGKs, it seems they are still too strong because of the tank, we can work on reducing that a little.

I'm not saying the entire class is OP - in fact in the statement you've quoted from me right there I've specifically stated Gals and Cals.

Like I said, I want to work towards a consensus on this. Marston did say that making logis (let's say Gs and Cs) only use sidearms would not stop them being OP, so that's the same as saying there'd be no problem making that change.

Would anyone seriously disagree with me that logis need to be able to tank damage?

Agreed.

So what advantages does an assault have over it's logi equivalent?

I'll yield to the fact that I've only ever used militia and standard SMGs. I've just always felt that a logi should have more HP because whenever I come up on a group, I try to identify their logi and take him out before I actually engage, if at all possible. Sometimes I just won't engage if I see that logi and can't get the jump on him before his friends see me, but then again, I play a LOT of solo

Proto SMG = a whole new world of opportunities.

IDK if you remember Stlcarlos, but he used to run swarm launchers, with proto SMG's as his main battle fit. The SMG was that good back then, and it hasn't been touched once since then either..... (aside from the sharpshooter skill but that was across the board).

The base stats and recharge delay/rate are easily overcome by the extra slots these logis have. Okay so SP/ISK is more but if you're running logissault, you don't need to use the equipment slots. The sidearm, as I've previously mentioned is hardly a loss when many people using AR/SCR don't ever use their sidearm anyway.

My point is that these logis can wield exactly the same weapons and have more tank than their assault equivalents and something needs to be done to change this. Marston is in favour of removing some tank, whilst I'm in favour of removing some DPS. Okay, so I know from experience how deadly the ishukone SMG is but only in CQC within about 25m. Like I said earlier, most logis don't use sidearms atm; they're using AR/SCR because those weapons have enough ammo to not need a back up weapon and you can still kill people at range. Making this change from light weapon to sidearm would stop logis being able to be as killer as they are right now.

If after making that change they're still killing too much, then we can talk about reducing the tank but I'm steadfast in believing that no tank = dead logi.

Because adding damage bonuses changes the way weapons are used just like the old sharpshooter made it so that weapons could be used in ways that they weren't designed to.

You'd also need to totally rebalance the scout and heavy suits with these changes in mind otherwise they'd be hopelessly outgunned by both assaults and logis. We can buff 3 types of suits or we can nerf 1 - I know which of those options I expect to cause least problems.

Not true, the Heavy suit needs a buff no matter what we do to other suits. Its work that needs to be done anyway so theres no point in not doing it. The scout is already outgunned by every other suit. That's why its a speed tanking suit..... the speed compensates for the other suits having so much more health. So You would only have to Buff 2 suits, rather then nerfing 1. And one of those 2 suits are a necessity (the heavy)..... So really your either going to buff 1 suit or nerf the other..... its even.

lol, remember strafing? Those were good times.

Did I not already concede that we should only change the gal and cal logis to start with?

I'm still not convinced that reducing the tank a little will have any impact on logis being killing machines. It will just make them more cautious about going into firefights with the comrades they're supposed to be supporting.

Either you reduce the tank or you reduce the dps.

Note - increasing the dps of other classes is equivalent to decreasing the dps of all logis, thus the class-wide nerf you're worried about.

How much SP do you have invested in logistic equipment? Bro, do you even logi? I am betting you dont even fill your equipment slots.

Gallente Logistics Bonus: 5% reduction to equipment PG/CPU usage per level

So by "set up shop" you mean switch out from your support build to your slayer build at a supply depot. After splitting your SP up to accommodate for those two separate playstyles, right?

I'm going to leave this here, as I think I've stated my case pretty clearly and have nothing more to add. I'd like to thank Marston and Cosgar for the constructive debate - it's been really fun going through all this nitty gritty with you both, even though we disagree on the solution, at least we agree there's a problem. Hopefully CCP will go over this thread with a really fine tooth comb and decide what ideas can aid with their own vision of how the (gal/cal) logi suits should be balanced.

Cheers all.

And you see no issues with this?

^ that's the whole point ive been trying to convey..... We need to balance the class, and im praying that CCP doesn't break it.

any suggestions that would have the same effect? My only point is that it would solve the problem, for the most part. It saddens me when I run into a proto logi squad running all AR and SR and clearly playing pure assault.