yeah my respec was a great moment/feeling, buncha crap choices gone, goodness in.

I would like to ask your fit OP. I fill 4 slots of equipment with advanced gear and barely have enough pg/cpu to fit a proto weapon and complex plate. Let alone put anything in the hi slots. The problem with logis now is people are able to abuse them by using cheap equipment or little at all and then beasting the tank. The logi can be OP, CCP needs to focus its role.
Logi bonus -10% to all equipment cpu/pg per level
Racial bonus - defense bonus that goes with lore
Lower cpu/pg a bit to force a decent tank with focus on equipment

To be fair, an actual combat medic should be with his heavies and assaults, focusing more on the ability to tank or avoid damage in order to keep his allies alive.

Right now, as is the continued philosophy for DUST, the best way to support your team is to shoot the other dude. People rarely even equip injectors anymore, and not even because they're still glitched to hell. There's a reason that logi bros don't really exist anymore, it's just logi hoes. They're extremely powerful combat platforms while simultaneously being excellent support platforms.

This is true, if they're alive.

But lets just say there are 2 squads of 4 on 4 going at it, 1 is all assaults the other has a logi in in it. Now the logi, he's playing defensivly trying to not get killed. All the assault guys manage to kill each other off except 1 red. What does the logi do? Does he try and fight the red with just his side arm so he can go for the revive? Or does he run away?

I would run. Or use the flaylock...

Heh. Lucky none of 'em had the noust to flux those hives.

The suit description calls us a "force multiplier"... and yet the most useful thing we can do is shoot at stuff, although those nano-hives are nice ... and the remote explosives

My point was he wanted to play an assault style. 40-2 or whatever is slay style. It would be cool if logistics suits were only really good at support. I am not saying no offensive capability, but if slayers are choosing the support suit, something is wrong.

Explains why I have seen multiple squads of STB out protostomping today. congratulations on your 40/1 matches, oh, and for driving away much of the new playerbase.

I sure hope you can be proud of yourself now!

Locking down areas better than heavies... with their equipment? You gotta explain this in detail.

(I wish I could drop a supply depot on this thread so Chicago could come and see your explanation too.)

Your point regarding SP investment and ISK cost arent valid.

What's the difference between a guy spending 13.8 Million in a gallente logi to make it an assault type soldier. And a guy spending the same amount in a a pure assault suit ? I spent the exact same amount as you (13.8 honest) in minmatar assault after the respec, core skills, weapon, nades, etc... Every SP investment being about making a better assault.
And yet, pretty much 95% of the fits i'd like to build require a CPU\PG extension or both. And my best fit costs 210K ISK.

So where's the difference exactly ?

The thing is that a logistic shouldnt, in any case, be able to get more hp nor damage output than an assault (or a heavy) with the same SP investment. It's pretty much written in its genetic code the moment it's called "Logistic".

Everything you mention about nades or any anti armor weapon being the way to kill you is also totally irrelevant in that debate. As the same goes for any gallente assault suit.

The only real downside to logi is base speed and sprint. And it's not that much of a problem for CAL Logis who can easily add kinetic catalyzer to compensate sprint. Cal Logi probably ends up being faster than an assault Cal sprint wise.

So yeah. Problem sticks imo. Logis are OP. In fact OP is just an ugly word for misplaced. All i hope is that when balance is effectively done, CCP wont break to giving another respec. Coz flavor of the month is something everyone KNOWS can change pretty quickly. As a CPM member, i know i will strongly oppose to any form of global respec after balance pass. Otherwise, it's gonna be a giant cry fest everytime there's even the slightest adjustment to anything in the game.

You people that complain that only having a sidearm would remove any chance to kill off anyone left if the guy your running with falls make me laugh. Sidearms are far from useless. I only use sidearms and do just as well if not better than many of the assaults I play with.

If you're running with a proper assault slayer and he dies, chances are the enemy is pretty near death too - if he's not running for cover, you could easily finish him off with a pistol or SMG or flaylock and then revive your teammate. Removing the light weapon slot is the only thing that can stop logis being better assaults than assaults. Heck, I know many assaults who don't even bother carrying a sidearm because it wastes CPU/PG, so not having a secondary weapon is hardly a significant drawback for logis who want to be slayers.

I've already agreed with you that the other suits need more suitable bonuses.

However, your comment about assaults should fit their designed purpose is funny because you seem completely against logis fitting their designed purpose.

I'll say it again - sidearms are still decent weapons and more than capable of mopping up whatever's left of the enemy if they manage to kill the guys you're supposed to be supporting. Killing should not be anywhere near the biggest source of WP for logis but that is the way it is all the while they can use ARs and other light weapons.

I'm more curious with your reasoning for choosing to play Logistics, since you clearly wish to be an Assault....since when is the support unit supposed to compete with the front line fighter?

It's like being the healer in an MMO and complaining that you don't have as much DPS as the ranger....

Give logis two sidearm slots, and allow anyone to dual wield side arms if two are equipped by cycling to the option on the weapon wheel. Obviously have to increase reload speed and make the spread more wonky, but there's your firepower if you want it, and versatility if you're going support. Amarr logi gets a light weapon slot only (only because they gave them the sidearm)

For craps sake there's an official concept art of the Logi with two SMGs.....

"I'll never admit that logi's are OP".....well, here's your dunce hat for the day. Cripes.

And you come full circle with wanting to go toe to toe with the Assault, which you yourself said would be no issue with a sidearm, especially two (the only thing that worries me is the flaylocks, but they still need work anyways). The way I see it, logi's are SUPPOSED to have tank, because that allows them to get in and revive their buddies, or heal people up, without actually dieing. With only sidearms, a logi would be encouraged to stick close with his allies, unless he was built to be quick and stealthy, more like a shotgun logi of today.

The reason you don't see people complain too much about the other logi suits is partly because the Amarr one is kind of meh for a logi, and the Caldari logi just overly highlights the issues with the logi spec as a whole :/

Can someone explain to me how the Minmatar, Gallente, and Amarr logi are OP? I have a stat comparison a few pages back that everyone ignored and I still see a broad brush being painted on the entire class because of this.

Also, would we be having this same argument if shields actually had a drawback? You know, something like a larger signature radius, or larger hitbox when at full health?

Most logis don't play with sidearms - the fact you got killed by one on that occasion is not a general pattern. The mere fact that you were killed by a logi with an SMG should be a sign to every other logi out there crying not to take away the light weapon slot because they won't be able to kill anything that they are wrong.

The general pattern is that most logis use ARs or SCRs because they have a buck-load of ammo and don't run out of rounds too quickly, thus negating the need for a sidearm.

Reducing logis eHP would be truly breaking for them. They need to be able to tank so they can stand alongside their squad repping them while they kill the guys shooting at you.

All the time logis have access to light weapons, they are encouraged to try to kill at the detriment of support. Changing the light weapon slot for a sidearm slot would force them to focus on support and only focus on killing when the situation warrants it.

And field medics in real war situations are not kitted out with the same offensive equipment as regular infantry. Carrying medical supplies and equipment means less room for big bulky weapons. Tell me where exactly your merc is managing to fit a nanohive, uplink, armor repper and needles alongside his grenades and assault rifle?

So let's take baby steps.

Fix the loldari suit, then we can see how everything plays out from there.

If that's the case, imagine logis pulling all their equipment out of their backpacks.

If logis get confied to sidearms, I better not see any Ishukone SMG nerf topics.

I said they "like" the idea, not, Uprising 1.2 HAS DUAL WIELDZ OLMGAS

I was actually just thinking about the Mini and Amarr logis. Isn't it true that Amarr pretty much tries to turn everything into a combat role? In that case, I wouldn't be against them having a light weapon slot. The minmatar way is to speed tank, right? So they don't need a light weapon to be able to get in, do their thing and get out quickly. In fact, their bonus is to hacking, so I guess they're intended to be avoiding fighting altogether and hacking, placing uplinks, getting ammo in useful places where there aren't supply depots and that sort of thing.

The gallente and caldari logis are supposed to be the primary support suits in this game, so make them support and take away the light weapon slot. (for the record I dislike Fiend's suggestion of dual wielding).

As for not having 'classes' in this game - true to an extent but you cite tank scouts and speedy heavies as examples; neither of which are even minutely viable roles. The only suit that has the versatility to act like another is the logi and that needs to be fixed.

You want logis to be confined to sidearms and you want to nerf the Flaylock? How about you just turn the logi animation to a backwards crawl while presenting their supple cheeks...

I was lucky enough to get sidearm sharpshooter prof 5 during the last week of Chrome and used my Duvolle as a secondary because of that thing

Lol Marston arguing with a noob who wants to kill to logi class into oblivion.
Laurent posted great ideas.
Bendtner posted relevant rebuttal to this idea.
Overall, they will never do this, and you can let this guy try to get support for it, but the fact is Marston he doesn't want to be open in his opinions, so why waste your time. It's devolved in a pissing contest of children. Just let it die.

On a more important note bro, why the **** are you ignoring my fanboi attempts to extract the fitting you used to achieve your rampant success? Please share

Zatara

P.S. I'm so intrigued by this I'm even posting on my birthday, while in Vegas, please stop ignoring me and clue me in on how I could improve my fitting. Thanks!

Have you seen the core flaylock? I'm saying give everyone dual wield so that way logi's can be given bonuses to it, or at least be encouraged to specialize in that style of combat. The ONLY thing even remotely balancing the flaylock right now is its clip, its RoF isn't that bad at all. Give someone two of those, and it becomes a serious balance issue.

You can't just wave a wand and everything magically works. Suggestions are made to spark creative thinking and discussion when you learn to weed out the trolls. Sometimes something that looks good on paper doesn't translate well, or vice versa. Or something that was once broken becomes balanced by introducing a new element, or vice versa.

SMGs and Pistols would both likely work as dual wielding with a bit of weapon sway and dispersion. Flaylocks as is, would not. You would rain death on all the things with ease. They already do. Flaylocks will be getting adjusted, let's just hope they don't get destroyed.

Oh and Marston, a grenadier logi would be terrifying. I am ******* mean with grenades, I would play a role that only gave me a single sidearm (or none, even) if I had a dedicated grenadier role.

After my respec I wanted to go Caldari Suit, for a moment I thought "CCP will see that Logi Suits are overpowered so much and they will make a good fix (nerf/balance) to them" so I went Minmatar Assault.

After spent all my SP, I realized that CCP works in the game and makse fixes and updates after 6 months. And I realized that in 6 months I will be playing Killzone 4 because I won't be able to play with the Gallente Heavy, so, yes, I screw up.

I musted go Caldari Logi in the first time. I was such a stupid person when I thought that CCP could fix his build in a couple of weeks.

I want to have a new respec...

Or maybe not...

I can still use...


LAVs!!!!!!!

Cosgar, in light of his further replies I'm going to need your help. Please help me direct his attention to my post! Quote my post, if that doesn't work , just copy and paste it, and if that doesn't work, let's all just post stuff about how all logi's need the nerf hammer into oblivion but have my posts embedded right smack dab in the middle so he accidentally finds himself reading it! Hurry! \


Edit: He saw it!!!!!1! But you want me to wade through all the crap of this noob arguing with you to find hints? Cmon, it's my birthday bro, show me some love?

Just to set straight anyone who thinks that I'm 'trying to nerf logis to death'; I'm not. I just want to make the OP logis less OP. Marston has already agreed that confining these logis to only sidearms would not kill logis off. That's good consensus. As has been said, let's not wield the nerf hammer, so go step by step. If after changing the LCKs and LGKs, it seems they are still too strong because of the tank, we can work on reducing that a little.

I love Dust.

Welp...can you share your move speed? And if you're using a precision enhancer?

Can you just mail me? You;d be the coolest guy evurrr.

The problem here is that taking away from their tank directly hurts their primary purpose; group support. Whereas limiting them to sidearms, which are more demanding on player skill to make as effective as many light weapons, will only hurt their secondary purpose; combat specialist. It also encourages logistics players to stick closer to allies.

I'm not too worried about it right now until after I see some patch notes. We're going to be in for a real treat depending on these new shield modules, and how they play out on all the killer bees out there.

I'm not saying the entire class is OP - in fact in the statement you've quoted from me right there I've specifically stated Gals and Cals.

Like I said, I want to work towards a consensus on this. Marston did say that making logis (let's say Gs and Cs) only use sidearms would not stop them being OP, so that's the same as saying there'd be no problem making that change.

Would anyone seriously disagree with me that logis need to be able to tank damage?

I'll yield to the fact that I've only ever used militia and standard SMGs. I've just always felt that a logi should have more HP because whenever I come up on a group, I try to identify their logi and take him out before I actually engage, if at all possible. Sometimes I just won't engage if I see that logi and can't get the jump on him before his friends see me, but then again, I play a LOT of solo

Btw, I run min logi. Just thought I would let you know the class I want "made useless for offense" is my own. I actually just want it made pure.

The speed penalty isn't huge but yes, it is there.

Thing is, if you take away their tank, they really don't have much going for them at all.

The base stats and recharge delay/rate are easily overcome by the extra slots these logis have. Okay so SP/ISK is more but if you're running logissault, you don't need to use the equipment slots. The sidearm, as I've previously mentioned is hardly a loss when many people using AR/SCR don't ever use their sidearm anyway.

My point is that these logis can wield exactly the same weapons and have more tank than their assault equivalents and something needs to be done to change this. Marston is in favour of removing some tank, whilst I'm in favour of removing some DPS. Okay, so I know from experience how deadly the ishukone SMG is but only in CQC within about 25m. Like I said earlier, most logis don't use sidearms atm; they're using AR/SCR because those weapons have enough ammo to not need a back up weapon and you can still kill people at range. Making this change from light weapon to sidearm would stop logis being able to be as killer as they are right now.

If after making that change they're still killing too much, then we can talk about reducing the tank but I'm steadfast in believing that no tank = dead logi.

Then why not give assaults damage bonuses to their racial weapons so they straight up out DPS logis since they're supposed to be assaults?

Because adding damage bonuses changes the way weapons are used just like the old sharpshooter made it so that weapons could be used in ways that they weren't designed to.

You'd also need to totally rebalance the scout and heavy suits with these changes in mind otherwise they'd be hopelessly outgunned by both assaults and logis. We can buff 3 types of suits or we can nerf 1 - I know which of those options I expect to cause least problems.

Also, the heavy suit is fine. It's the lack of heavy weapons and racial suits that's ruining the class. When we get more heavy suits and weapons, the class can be balanced amongst itself instead of being scaled down to the standards of medium suits and light weapons. Scouts need cloaking, plain and simple. Just like the sentinel, scouts are suffering for being groomed for something that's still on the drawing board. In fact, if you look at how much a joke balancing is right now, you can pretty much see that the devs are digging themselves a deeper hole by trying to establish proper balance in an unfinished game.

Looking at how slow scouts are makes me miss Replication more and more

I just feel like it's far too easy to make a combat logi that also has the versatility of a support character. The assault suits seem to be just about fine right now, with scouts and heavies being on the lower end of the totem pole in general. Currently the loldari logi is a problem, so fixing that and seeing how the rest of the logi's play out is the first step.

It just really feels like you want to have maximum killing efficiency, which still makes me wonder why you choose logistics over assault

How much SP do you have invested in logistic equipment? Bro, do you even logi?

So by "set up shop" you mean switch out from your support build to your slayer build at a supply depot. After splitting your SP up to accommodate for those two separate playstyles, right?

I was not kidding you.

I'm going to leave this here, as I think I've stated my case pretty clearly and have nothing more to add. I'd like to thank Marston and Cosgar for the constructive debate - it's been really fun going through all this nitty gritty with you both, even though we disagree on the solution, at least we agree there's a problem. Hopefully CCP will go over this thread with a really fine tooth comb and decide what ideas can aid with their own vision of how the (gal/cal) logi suits should be balanced.

Cheers all.

I asked a question. You answered. I too bow out of this thread. I have spoken my words, anything more would be redundant.

....about logis ending up in sidearms? That was productive.....talk about full circle.

And you see no issues with this?

logi should not be able to be better at killing then assault. game broken nuff said

What? You want him to chase heavies with a repair tool out 24/7? I barely use my repper either because the equipment radial is still broken. Also, logis have a cool down for how much WP they get at one time. Gotta do something until that timer resets, right?

MARSTON hop online i want to chat friend :) about your suit. im always interested in your crazy suit ideas

If that is not proof that assault and basic suits are in desperate need of a rework, then I don't know what is. And it also cleary shows that nobody gives a damn about that side arm if they can exchange a better tank and equipment for it. CPP needs to give that sidearm a purpose for every assault player, not just AV and sniper specialists.

Also, we have currently 12 different weapons in game that an assault can use, only 4 of them are sidearms (1 being a melee only weapon). Nobody can seriously suggest that all logi players should be limited to 1/4 of the weapon arsenal, in a game that is all about shooting people and customization.

when you get back hit me up. i want to do some R&D i have a plan to make me more versatile on the battlefield and i want your expertise.

All this talk about Logis doing an assaults job better, and here I am... in my Amarr logi suit, totally not being the badass I'm supposed to be. Regardless of what happens to the other suits, I hope you guys and CCP are reasonable enough to understand that the Amarr and Minmatar suits aren't in need of any nerfs.

You must be a liberal.

Ummm... you still have a SIDEARM that is more than capable of killing a "redberry" IF you are good enough too. You must be one of the logisault runners. I see now. Also, if ur smart enough as a TRUE logi, you wont get killed as much. Logis should not run alone....

The whole point of LOGISTICS is repairing and reviving. Not assaulting....Back up fire really while doing YOUR JOB!!!



Who said anything about sidearms being taken away?

READ. MORE. PEOPLE!

Thats actually the most simple yet efficient solution I have heard in a long time. +1