I sort of agree about AV nades... Sort of...

I'd much rather see some AV mines. Make those the go-to disposable Anti-tank weapon for infantry. Until then the AV nade needs to stay..

Vehicles are balanced... for a build none of us have access to right now.

STD tanks are good against STD AV, ok against ADV AV, and die to proto AV. As it should be.

But there is no ADV or PROTO tank designed for fighting infantry.

Yes I run vehicles on my 5 mil sp alt.

Yes I play PC, but not on my vehicle alt.

Tanks are fine.

CCP needs to hurry up and release the rest of the content the game is balanced around.

I'm an AV unit and think tanks are UP. I don't even use my proto SL (only use it when there is A LOT of vehicles) much because the ADV SL does the job good enough. I don't think the SL needed the 10% dmg boost that all the other weapons got.

Also I play PC sometimes.

I remember when I had pride, keepin my surya alive for 30 matches (with slayer squad friends). Now i become happy when I keep my tank alive for one match with 5 more slayer friends.

Logi LAV's are AT LEAST adv level. Even proto AV doesn't give them to much trouble.

As everyone knows, I'm a pretty vocal Vehicle player (inb4whoruscrub?), I'm in favour of balancing everything and understand there are times when I will be brought to my knees by a single experienced forge gunner, but I'm getting tired of this horrible balancing from CCP.

Now before people come crawling out of their holes to defend how this is how Tanks should be, you have to answer a few questions.

Are you a specialized Vehicle/AV Player? (This means, have you dedicated yourself to one type of playstyle, not just added a couple of points into a Swarm Launcher and decided to call yourself the Tank Buster, nor are you a Tanker if you've got a sica with a rail and you're rolling thinking you're l33t because you red line snipe.)

Do you play PC? (Simple question)

These two questions will tell people enough. If you're not specialized, you have a very miniscule say in any Vehicle/AV debate, it is not your place to tell us how the vehicles and anti-vehicles should work, I won't whine about your AR, you don't whine about your swarms not killing a tank. Don't play PC? Again, not really qualified to talk about vehicle balance, PC changes the battlefield completely, with everyone pulling their best gear (Tanks being standard, AV being Officer.)

So the question, when do I get to go toe to toe with AVers?

Vehicles have a massive disadvantage at the minute, we have no way to compete against higher tier AV. Let's look at Vehicles and clear things up.

Militia Tank > Standard Tank (Enforcer Tanks come under this role, offering no real advantage other than slightly higher damage output, you cannot call this advanced.)

Militia LAV > Standard LAV (And Scout) > Logistics LAV (It's hench, let's admit it before someone cries.)

Militia Dropship > Standard Dropship (Assault/Logi included)

AV...

Militia Forge > Standard Forge > Advanced Forge > Prototype Forge > Officer Forge

Militia Swarms > Standard Swarms > Advanced Swarms > Prototype Swarms

Standard Plasma Cannon > Advanced Plasma Cannon > Prototype Plasma Cannon (Admittedly, these are awful.)

Standard AV Nades > Advanced AV Nades > Prototype AV Nades


Do we notice anything? Apart from the Logi LAV, no vehicle type has anything higher than a standard type vehicle, and let's be honest, this is the thing that is killing us, that is what's missing from the balance. Militia v Militia, it goes either way, Standard v Standard, Vehicles are survivable, anything above that usually means death to the Vehicle Player.

CCP needs to address this, and they need to offer a viable solution for it, it is not fun losing a vehicle simply because CCP hasn't put in the correct vehicles to combat the AV. If it needs to be done, AV tiers need to match Vehicle Tiers, resulting in standard AV fighting us.

TL;DR: Vehicle vs AV is pretty much balanced apart from Dropships and AV Grenades, we need the Advanced and Proto vehicles before CCP does any editing to the numbers.

But enough of my thoughts, speak to me on balance.

To add, I don't consider having skilled up for prototype AV grenades to be legitimate anti-vehicle capability. AVs should be used to soften targets, or get people using ISK LAVs to run away. I just cannot and will not consider that to be a legitimate anti-vehicle person, nor would I give them respect either. It's only 621,000 SP to get to prototype AV, while my vehicle command alone is far more than that. I'm done for the night or else I'd give hard numbers on my vehicle SP stats.

Your 621,000 SP investment should not be able to destroy my 8+ mil SP investment so easily.

DS pilot here: dedicated

Drop ships are a mess. CCP are silent on this. I think this is because they have changes in the works so I am prepared to wait and comment when it comes. In the mean time if I'm not being OHK by a standard forge or homing super AV grenades I ride shot gun in a tank.

The big problem is AV carried by infantry specialists. Currently you can carry as a ground player :

The best AR in the game
The strongest armour and shield combo
Some spare ammo with a hive

You are the perfect infantry man. A specialist at killing other troops. BUT.. You can also carry 3 mega strong, fast deploy anti vehicle grenades that rip tanks and dropships to bits. Why? Why should a player be able to do it all? AV should be a class of player, maybe even a suit

Assault
Logistics
AV
Pilot

I think AV should be restricted to one suit. This game needs all classes to make your team win. No AV guy and there is a tank... Silly you, you should have brought one. Currently as a tank, lav, or DS you face maybe 16 people are rocking a potential 5600 AV damage each with no penalty to their ability to play their role. flux, even works on infantry too so no loss there should a tank not turn up.

Officer v Standard, What Tank? You mean that smouldering wreck?

I am currently running proto swarm as a dedicated AV guy, I believe swarm is very ineffective against shields, and if a tank stack a lot of shield, trust me, no swarm is going to penetrate it (unless many shots from a well coordinated team of swarms) If you buff shields and leave swarms as it is, tanks will become way OP. If you die fast from Swarm fire, your tank is simply built like a plank; plain and simple. Stop whining.

With regards to the HAVs not having good enough anti-infantry I thought the Large Blaster Turret had been the solution. It was tearing grunts up. This last month they haven't been as "killey". Did something happen to them? The Large Missiles were great anti-infantry two builds ago. Some kind of buff or return to their former glory would be nice.

What you're saying is rock AV doesn't work against paper HAV?

Ever considered trying scissor AV...

DS pilot here: dedicated

Drop ships are a mess. CCP are silent on this. I think this is because they have changes in the works so I am prepared to wait and comment when it comes. In the mean time if I'm not being OHK by a standard forge or homing super AV grenades I ride shot gun in a tank.

The big problem is AV carried by infantry specialists. Currently you can carry as a ground player :

The best AR in the game
The strongest armour and shield combo
Some spare ammo with a hive

You are the perfect infantry man. A specialist at killing other troops. BUT.. You can also carry 3 mega strong, fast deploy anti vehicle grenades that rip tanks and dropships to bits. Why? Why should a player be able to do it all? AV should be a class of player, maybe even a suit

Assault
Logistics
AV
Pilot

I think AV should be restricted to one suit. This game needs all classes to make your team win. No AV guy and there is a tank... Silly you, you should have brought one. Currently as a tank, lav, or DS you face maybe 16 people are rocking a potential 5600 AV damage each with no penalty to their ability to play their role. flux, even works on infantry too so no loss there should a tank not turn up.

And getting AV nades from nanohives so you can sit on it and chuck like 15 AV nades is just stupid

Im actually satisfied with the AV currently exept for the forge guns

There needs to be a time charge or a damage buff to the forge gun. A prototype forge can take out my shield tank in about 5 seconds. Which isn't fair. He spent ~500k SP to get it, and my tank cost ~4mill SP for my worst gunnlogi. Someone can just go "Oh hey lets spend a million skill points for this officer forge gun of death with 3 damage mods on my heavy suit" and go camp it up on a roof where you can't hit him.

And getting AV nades from nanohives so you can sit on it and chuck like 15 AV nades is just stupid

Im actually satisfied with the AV currently exept for the forge guns

There needs to be a time charge or a damage buff to the forge gun. A prototype forge can take out my shield tank in about 5 seconds. Which isn't fair. He spent ~500k SP to get it, and my tank cost ~4mill SP for my worst gunnlogi. Someone can just go "Oh hey lets spend a million skill points for this officer forge gun of death with 3 damage mods on my heavy suit" and go camp it up on a roof where you can't hit him.

And getting AV nades from nanohives so you can sit on it and chuck like 15 AV nades is just stupid

Tell that to the guy in Eve that lost his Carrier (2-4Billion ISK) to a lone Stealth Bomber worth 60-80m ISK, sure he derped up bigtime, but if you Derp up, you are supposed to go down.

Letting me get close to your tank = you derping it up.

Tell that to the guy in Eve that lost his Carrier (2-4Billion ISK) to a lone Stealth Bomber worth 60-80m ISK, sure he derped up bigtime, but if you Derp up, you are supposed to go down.

Letting me get close to your tank = you derping it up.

Nerfing AV weapons is not the answer to balancing vehicles vs AV. As stated by others we only have Militia and Standard levels for most vehicles while we have all the way to officer level for AV. What they should do is temporarily take off the market all AV that is above Advanced Level until they introduce all of the Advanced and Prototype vehicles.

There is not way to tell if a Proto Forge is balanced until we can use it against a proto tank/dropship. If you nerf AV now without those vehicles you run the risk of making AV useless against the new vehicles and then you have to go back and rebalance everything again. This will not only take longer, but will be a waste of dev time and money. By doing what I have suggested you would only need one round of balancing and we it would probably take less time and resources for CCP to do it.

Just my .02 ISK

Logi LAV's are AT LEAST adv level. Even proto AV doesn't give them to much trouble.

Would really like to hear from CCP honestly, someone who works on Vehicles in particular.

It's gotten to the point where we've begun considering if vehicles will ever be worth it. Are we more useful as Infantry or will vehicles ever be able to stand on their feet against a proto forge (3 shots, 5 seconds, dead.)

Yeah Gastun is totally a d!ck.

Proto tanks would be neat to see. My guess CCP is a bit gun-shy on how to balance them (Adv HAVs as well since they are perpetually swinging back and between OP and UP). One defense when they are on the OP side is that dedicated AV teamwork should be needed against them. Maybe Tonka Tuff proto HAVs could be released but limited to Planetary Conquest to avoid the pubstomp issues.

With regards to the HAVs not having good enough anti-infantry I thought the Large Blaster Turret had been the solution. It was tearing grunts up. This last month they haven't been as "killey". Did something happen to them? The Large Missiles were great anti-infantry two builds ago. Some kind of buff or return to their former glory would be nice.


To answer the thread author's questions I'm a dedicated assault Forge Gunner (used to tote an HMG until SP inflation hit this game build, even 9 mil sp isn't enough) who does not participate in Planetary Conquest (which needs more bacon).

Dedicated AV gunner here. Some of you have probably lost **** to me, so hopefully this give me some weight.

Swarms - 70% Shield, 130% Armor
Forge Gun - 110% Shield, 90% Armor

See any problem there? I do. We need a better spread of AV weapons. Where's my 130% Shield 70% armor gun?(Hint: CCP has no plans to make one).

On the one hand, Swarms are absolutely AMAZING at wrecking armor tankers, but completely bite balls killing a well-kitted and skilled Gunlogi/Falchion tank. Seriously. I've dumped my entire swarm load(6 Proto Swarms) w/ 3 Complex mods and Proficiency III into a Gunlogi(*Cough* Sir Meade *Cough*), only to have it just shrug off the damage and run away. So I'm not sure about the whole "When do I get to go toe to toe with an AVer" argument. A well kitted Shield tank with a Driver that has invested a large number of SP into Vehicle Upgrades CAN stand toe to toe.

Then again, I've ripped apart proto-fit Mardrugars (Spelling?) in sometimes as little as 3 shots.

On the other hand, I've got my Forge Gunner alt. Proto Assault FG's, Complex Damage mods, etc.

From his perspective, things are simply too fast. A well kitted tank had to completely go absent of his situational awareness to die to me(I.e. drive out into the open and come to a full stop, or stay out in the open if I have the high ground). While I do a sizeable chunk of damage, even with an Assault forge I have to be quite on the ball to kill someone. And forget standing toe to toe - I'm way too large of a target, and way too slow(especially charging a Forge) to be dodging and weaving like I do on my medium Swarm fit character.


Not sure what I was getting at there.

Anyway, as far as I'm concerned, the real issue arises from tankers expecting their large vehicles which cost large amounts of money to be able to shrug off huge damage and keep going, with minimal skill investments. Militia tanks are cannon fodder, and Standard tanks require a very keen mind to fit, and ALOT of skill points to get to the hardened, rolling brick stage. If I play my cards right, with proto AV gear, I can potentially kill a well piloted, high SP tank. Frankly, I fear what's going to happen when they bring in ADV and Proto tanks with higher base EHP and better fitting capacity than the current STD tanks. At that point, we're going to have to have coordinated, dedicated, proto fit AV tank hunting groups in order to kill them. In a PC match - yea - that makes perfect sense. 0 complaints as far as having them in PC goes. But just like now - with corps like UPS, WTF, Seraphim, and so many others stacking 6-12 man Proto/Officer fit teams in pub matches - the moment someone brings in one of these EHP monster ADV/Proto tanks in to a Pub game(Because this game does not revolve around PC!) we're going to be right back where we were closing Chromosome, with the public screaming 'tanks are OP, tanks are OP', and CCP (probably) beating them with a nerf bat.

Though the whole.. Pub match imbalance thing.. Really is a whole other matter entirely.

Edit: Tl;dr - If you are running in any other tank but Shield fit Gunlogi right now, you're doing it wrong.

Would really like to hear from CCP honestly, someone who works on Vehicles in particular.

It's gotten to the point where we've begun considering if vehicles will ever be worth it. Are we more useful as Infantry or will vehicles ever be able to stand on their feet against a proto forge (3 shots, 5 seconds, dead.)

Not letting this thread die. The way to true balance with vehicles and anti vehicle weaponry is by having the correct gear to match up with each other. We need Advanced and Prototype tanks, specialized variants are not Advanced nor Proto vehicles despite their little tag, and need to be treated as such (Like the Logistics Vehicles, when you aim at them, they should say ENFORCER not PRO).

Standard Tanks don't need a buff, nor do we need extra PG, if anything, give us our 25% PG skill back, and then reduce the current PG on Standard and Enforcer HAVs by 25%, thus creating even more of a reason to spec into higher tier vehicles.

As a stop gap they could always remove advanced and proto AV

Sure the tears would flow when ppl cannot 2 shot that HAV with proto AV but it will balance the field a bit

All things aside, if you are getting two shot, even by a breach forge, then something is wrong with your fit, or you called in a Sica.

Officer Forge kills 5400 with 10% resists in skills and the two 15% Resists on there, in 2 shots. Third shot kills in, this all happens in around 5 seconds. To quote many corpmates "Fighting a Tank isn't scary anymore." Before, you would see a tank and comms would be "**** theres a tank" followed by people getting AV ready, now it's "Tank on the field" followed by one guy saying "Ahahaha it's dead" moments later.

I think you are mistaken on your math. Even with double damage mods, and the 15% from proficiency, the Gastuns doesn't put out that much damage. Yes it can produce a longer firing sequence, and does better DPS/time than an assault forge, but it does not produce the numbers you are talking about.

Even if it did, the 5 million SP needed to field that fit means it should be able to rip up a tank. This applies less for the breach forge ,as the longer charge time mitigates some or your argument about getting wiped out quickly.

Yes, pretty much any PC battle means that a forge gunner up top can kill you in a magazine if you mismanage your modules, or have a bad fit. That is PC for you. Everyone has the gear, so be prepared. If your team can't clear the roof, enjoy the redline, and hiding.

I'll add more later, time to go watch football.

As everyone knows, I'm a pretty vocal Vehicle player (inb4whoruscrub?), I'm in favour of balancing everything and understand there are times when I will be brought to my knees by a single experienced forge gunner, but I'm getting tired of this horrible balancing from CCP.

Now before people come crawling out of their holes to defend how this is how Tanks should be, you have to answer a few questions.

Are you a specialized Vehicle/AV Player? (This means, have you dedicated yourself to one type of playstyle, not just added a couple of points into a Swarm Launcher and decided to call yourself the Tank Buster, nor are you a Tanker if you've got a sica with a rail and you're rolling thinking you're l33t because you red line snipe.)

Do you play PC? (Simple question)

These two questions will tell people enough. If you're not specialized, you have a very miniscule say in any Vehicle/AV debate, it is not your place to tell us how the vehicles and anti-vehicles should work, I won't whine about your AR, you don't whine about your swarms not killing a tank. Don't play PC? Again, not really qualified to talk about vehicle balance, PC changes the battlefield completely, with everyone pulling their best gear (Tanks being standard, AV being Officer.)

So the question, when do I get to go toe to toe with AVers?

Vehicles have a massive disadvantage at the minute, we have no way to compete against higher tier AV. Let's look at Vehicles and clear things up.

Militia Tank > Standard Tank (Enforcer Tanks come under this role, offering no real advantage other than slightly higher damage output, you cannot call this advanced.)

Militia LAV > Standard LAV (And Scout) > Logistics LAV (It's hench, let's admit it before someone cries.)

Militia Dropship > Standard Dropship (Assault/Logi included)

AV...

Militia Forge > Standard Forge > Advanced Forge > Prototype Forge > Officer Forge

Militia Swarms > Standard Swarms > Advanced Swarms > Prototype Swarms

Standard Plasma Cannon > Advanced Plasma Cannon > Prototype Plasma Cannon (Admittedly, these are awful.)

Standard AV Nades > Advanced AV Nades > Prototype AV Nades


Do we notice anything? Apart from the Logi LAV, no vehicle type has anything higher than a standard type vehicle, and let's be honest, this is the thing that is killing us, that is what's missing from the balance. Militia v Militia, it goes either way, Standard v Standard, Vehicles are survivable, anything above that usually means death to the Vehicle Player.

CCP needs to address this, and they need to offer a viable solution for it, it is not fun losing a vehicle simply because CCP hasn't put in the correct vehicles to combat the AV. If it needs to be done, AV tiers need to match Vehicle Tiers, resulting in standard AV fighting us.

TL;DR: Vehicle vs AV is pretty much balanced apart from Dropships and AV Grenades, we need the Advanced and Proto vehicles before CCP does any editing to the numbers.

But enough of my thoughts, speak to me on balance.

As everyone knows, I'm a pretty vocal Vehicle player (inb4whoruscrub?), I'm in favour of balancing everything and understand there are times when I will be brought to my knees by a single experienced forge gunner, but I'm getting tired of this horrible balancing from CCP.

Now before people come crawling out of their holes to defend how this is how Tanks should be, you have to answer a few questions.

Are you a specialized Vehicle/AV Player? (This means, have you dedicated yourself to one type of playstyle, not just added a couple of points into a Swarm Launcher and decided to call yourself the Tank Buster, nor are you a Tanker if you've got a sica with a rail and you're rolling thinking you're l33t because you red line snipe.)

Do you play PC? (Simple question)

These two questions will tell people enough. If you're not specialized, you have a very miniscule say in any Vehicle/AV debate, it is not your place to tell us how the vehicles and anti-vehicles should work, I won't whine about your AR, you don't whine about your swarms not killing a tank. Don't play PC? Again, not really qualified to talk about vehicle balance, PC changes the battlefield completely, with everyone pulling their best gear (Tanks being standard, AV being Officer.)

So the question, when do I get to go toe to toe with AVers?

Vehicles have a massive disadvantage at the minute, we have no way to compete against higher tier AV. Let's look at Vehicles and clear things up.

Militia Tank > Standard Tank (Enforcer Tanks come under this role, offering no real advantage other than slightly higher damage output, you cannot call this advanced.)

Militia LAV > Standard LAV (And Scout) > Logistics LAV (It's hench, let's admit it before someone cries.)

Militia Dropship > Standard Dropship (Assault/Logi included)

AV...

Militia Forge > Standard Forge > Advanced Forge > Prototype Forge > Officer Forge

Militia Swarms > Standard Swarms > Advanced Swarms > Prototype Swarms

Standard Plasma Cannon > Advanced Plasma Cannon > Prototype Plasma Cannon (Admittedly, these are awful.)

Standard AV Nades > Advanced AV Nades > Prototype AV Nades


Do we notice anything? Apart from the Logi LAV, no vehicle type has anything higher than a standard type vehicle, and let's be honest, this is the thing that is killing us, that is what's missing from the balance. Militia v Militia, it goes either way, Standard v Standard, Vehicles are survivable, anything above that usually means death to the Vehicle Player.

CCP needs to address this, and they need to offer a viable solution for it, it is not fun losing a vehicle simply because CCP hasn't put in the correct vehicles to combat the AV. If it needs to be done, AV tiers need to match Vehicle Tiers, resulting in standard AV fighting us.

TL;DR: Vehicle vs AV is pretty much balanced apart from Dropships and AV Grenades, we need the Advanced and Proto vehicles before CCP does any editing to the numbers.

But enough of my thoughts, speak to me on balance.

some people build decent tanks. recently i had to reload to pop one.

Well Im level 5 Prof. Swarms and I can tell you with MUCH experience to back me.. Swarms dont do **** to tanks or dropships.. So pretty much your whole post is complete BS, unless you are talking about going toe to toe with a Forge gun.. In which case they will pwn you probly.. Maybe be more specific, or just have the correct info .. not sure but SWARMS are definately BS now..

I'd say they addressed it by buffing the absolute **** out of LAVs/HAVs and now we have the Murdertaxi Herds all over the place.

As someone who has gone into Prototype AV (or at least intended it to be that way before realizing that Plasma Cannons aren't worth a damn) I can say that it's annoying having to deal with any form of vehicle as even Militia Tanks can survive Three ADV AV Grenades and a round from a Prototype Plasma Cannon.

Now, the reason I say that Tanks should be killed by Solo AV players is because honestly, if a tank driven by one person requires a team of AV guys, that's already setting an imbalance as the other team is now forced to sacrifice their anti-infantry capabilities.

When it takes an entire crew to run a Tank, I'll accept it taking an entire crew of AV to put it down.

Aye, it was the wrong move for the LAVs, also Plasma Cannons are ridiculously UP, we know this, nobody is arguing otherwise. Oh we do run crews for our tanks, but was is the point when you get three shotted anyways? With higher tier tanks that are more risky to bring out you're going to want infantry working with you a lot more.

I don't see it, honestly. Two militia tanks and a Gunnlogi absolutely decimated my team earlier and while I didn't have much issue with the Militia tanks (even though I was using Advanced grenades and a Prototype weapon FFS) I had -HELL- taking out the Gunnlogi.

I eventually put the Gunnlogi down and it put a smile on my face as I -EARNED- that kill, I -WORKED- for that kill.

Now imagine my surprise when the same damned tank came back ontop of a Skyscraper and was invulnerable to every form of AV available - including Orbital Strikes.

In PC av nades are pointless....unless the tank is a complete idiot and tries to solo ....AV should always scare tankers....that's their job. Forge guns are great dps and require some skill to use...tanks need to be able to shoot up. I think the balance could lean a bit more in favor to HAVs and lavs need a nerf

You used a Prototype Forge? I thought you said about a Plasma Cannon? Which is completely UP and needs a buff. You talk about three tanks, tell me how many AVers were on your team? Ones not using Militia Gear?

Teamwork is in various forms, when I run my Tank, I have 5 Infantry supporting (usually), I use the active scanner to make sure my Infantry finds the solo AVers, but if the Solo AVer is sitting on a roof just hitting me from a distance, that solo AVer will win even with my crew supporting me. That's 6 people for the Tank, and 1 person killing it. Two Standard Forge Guns will annihilate me, providing they know how to work together. 2 v 6, with it favouring 2 seems fair enough.

Also, that should be unavailable as an option for Tankers, the majority of buildings are "inaccessible" when you try to call a vehicle in, so go to the map support section and point out the coordinates that the Tanker managed to put his tank on.

Any of the skyscrapers. I've seen it in all of the maps that have the Caldari Communications towers.

And I never said anything about a Forge Gun so I dunno where you're getting that impression. Maybe it's time to stop hearing what you want to hear to continue your argument.

I think the title of this post should be ...

"when do I get to be invincible"

So a fully specd swarm launcher .. using 2x dmg mods, all rounds, nanohive, and chasing you across the entire map .

should not kill you? just checkin

Cuz we cant.. unless you have a shitbox tank or dropship

this is current.. and the truth coming from a level 5 pro swarm

I asked a question in the first part, apologies if I didn't make it clearer.

So you used a Plasma Cannon, the exact thing I've said is completely underpowered.

See, but you're evading the entire issue of AV as it stands.

If the Plasma Cannon is Underpowered, I'm told to use Swarm Launchers. I say Swarm Launchers don't work so I'm told to use Forge Guns. I say that in order to use Forge Guns I have to take a hit to my mobility which makes me an easy targets for Murder Taxis and you say use Av Grenades.

I use AV Grenades and you say they're over-powered. It's an endless cycle that I've heard since November/December 2012.

I think you are mistaken on your math. Even with double damage mods, and the 15% from proficiency, the Gastuns doesn't put out that much damage. Yes it can produce a longer firing sequence, and does better DPS/time than an assault forge, but it does not produce the numbers you are talking about.

Even if it did, the 5 million SP needed to field that fit means it should be able to rip up a tank. This applies less for the breach forge ,as the longer charge time mitigates some or your argument about getting wiped out quickly.

Yes, pretty much any PC battle means that a forge gunner up top can kill you in a magazine if you mismanage your modules, or have a bad fit. That is PC for you. Everyone has the gear, so be prepared. If your team can't clear the roof, enjoy the redline, and hiding.

I'll add more later, time to go watch football.

I find it extremely frustrating how you can hop and jump around with a swarm launcher while also locking on and firing. This makes it extremely difficult to ever actually kill a Swarm player when going one on one while in a tank.
Forge gun shot trails and hit indicators are also very poor.

Swarms and plasma cannons should not be fire-able while jumping.
Forge gun shot trails should be a bit more noticeable and linger for longer.

Also Swarm launcher pathing still very much needs a fix. They currently can follow around corners in situations where they should not. They are also capable of traveling through the tops of a number of hills and also through crates in several locations.

Believe me, I am not "Mistaken". My fits are more than decent and yet they cannot survive more than three shots from the forge guns. It kills me in seconds, that I can assure you and that is from a solo gunner.
.

Gastuns Forge does 1584 damage per shot, with shots every 1.7 seconds.

Add in 15% from prof 5, and that gives you 1822.

Pretend there are no stacking penalties and add for two damage mods to get to 2204.

Now remove your 10% passive bonus to get 1984.

So yeah, you are mistaken.