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RINON114
B.S.A.A.
148
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Posted - 2013.05.12 02:34:00 -
[61] - Quote
Sete Clifton wrote:In my opinion it should be a high damage, low rate of fire gun meant for medium to long range encounters. To do this, I suggest these general changes:
-Increase damage (around 90)
-Decrease rate of fire (120-150)
-Maybe lower clip size a little (around 15?)
OH my goodness this was literally EXACTLY what I was going to say. Rate of fire should be a little less than the breach with higher damage of course.
I did some maths:
Standard AR 32.5 damage (I think) x 60 (bullets in a clip) = 1950
Using this result I believe the tactical AR should have a damage of 130 (1950++15 bullets in the clip). Obviously rate of fire should come into it and if the tac AR has a rate of fire of 500 where the standard is 600 then the TAR is going to win on DPS. If someone else could figure that out before I get a chance then that would be great.
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XXfootnoteXX
DUST University
Ivy League
262
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Posted - 2013.05.12 02:35:00 -
[62] - Quote
Sete Clifton wrote:In my opinion it should be a high damage, low rate of fire gun meant for medium to long range encounters. To do this, I suggest these general changes:
-Increase damage (around 90)
-Decrease rate of fire (120-150)
-Maybe lower clip size a little (around 15?)
I could get behind this. The gun performs like it should if a nerf should happen, it should focus on the DPS.
I honestly think we just need to buff other weapons so they can preform. |
RINON114
B.S.A.A.
148
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 02:47:00 -
[63] - Quote
XXfootnoteXX wrote:Sete Clifton wrote:In my opinion it should be a high damage, low rate of fire gun meant for medium to long range encounters. To do this, I suggest these general changes:
-Increase damage (around 90)
-Decrease rate of fire (120-150)
-Maybe lower clip size a little (around 15?) I could get behind this. The gun performs like it should if a nerf should happen, it should focus on the DPS. I honestly think we just need to buff other weapons so they can preform.
I hope DPS for you means damage GÇ£per shotGÇ¥ and not GÇ£per secondGÇ¥. The TAR needs to have incredible damage but be almost useless in CQC, lowering the clip size should be enough. |
Disturbingly Bored
Universal Allies Inc.
214
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 03:07:00 -
[64] - Quote
LittleCuteBunny wrote:
4. Damage Modifiers
The main issue is how damage mods stack, which is what makes it so appealing. If damage mods actually exhibited diminishing damage as more modifiers are stacked instead of the current compounding it will be a total different story
@ 1 Damage Modifier = (1.1) ^ 1 = 1.10
@ 2 Damage Modifier = (1.1) ^ 2 = 1.21
@ 3 Damage Modifier = (1.1) ^ 3 = 1.33
@ 4 Damage Modifier = (1.1) ^ 4 = 1.46
@ 5 Damage Modifier = (1.1) ^ 5 = 1.61
Just so we're all clear:
Damage Modifiers have a stacking penalty, and have had a stacking penalty for some time. It's been proven experimentally on the forums multiple times, I just don't have the thread links at hand.
The fitting screen remains inaccurate for some reason. I don't know why CCP hasn't bothered to fix it since it's a perpetual source of confusion. |
Cosgar
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
707
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 03:13:00 -
[65] - Quote
Disturbingly Bored wrote:LittleCuteBunny wrote:
4. Damage Modifiers
The main issue is how damage mods stack, which is what makes it so appealing. If damage mods actually exhibited diminishing damage as more modifiers are stacked instead of the current compounding it will be a total different story
@ 1 Damage Modifier = (1.1) ^ 1 = 1.10
@ 2 Damage Modifier = (1.1) ^ 2 = 1.21
@ 3 Damage Modifier = (1.1) ^ 3 = 1.33
@ 4 Damage Modifier = (1.1) ^ 4 = 1.46
@ 5 Damage Modifier = (1.1) ^ 5 = 1.61
Just so we're all clear: Damage Modifiers have a stacking penalty, and have had a stacking penalty for some time. It's been proven experimentally on the forums multiple times, I just don't have the thread links at hand. The fitting screen remains inaccurate for some reason. I don't know why CCP hasn't bothered to fix it since it's a perpetual source of confusion.
Just had a separate thought that could resolve the problem with the TAR or any other weapon in the future that will be considered OP. Why not just raise the CPU/PG fitting requirements on the damage mods? People abuse the hell out of them and let's face it, 4-5 damage mods will make anything OP. |
Disturbingly Bored
Universal Allies Inc.
214
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 03:20:00 -
[66] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:Just had a separate thought that could resolve the problem with the TAR or any other weapon in the future that will be considered OP. Why not just raise the CPU/PG fitting requirements on the damage mods? People abuse the hell out of them and let's face it, 4-5 damage mods will make anything OP.
Because then damage mods would be completely useless compared to shield extenders.
Honestly, shield extender fits on anything but Heavy were already better than damage mod fits in Chromosome. (I've posted the math at length to prove this before.) For Uprising, shield extenders got a skill that makes them up to 10% more effective.
Damage Mods are just fine by comparison, and the only thing keeping this from being Shield Extender 514 is Flux Grenades. |
Sete Clifton
PSU GHOST SYNDICATE
129
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 03:21:00 -
[67] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:Disturbingly Bored wrote:LittleCuteBunny wrote:
4. Damage Modifiers
The main issue is how damage mods stack, which is what makes it so appealing. If damage mods actually exhibited diminishing damage as more modifiers are stacked instead of the current compounding it will be a total different story
@ 1 Damage Modifier = (1.1) ^ 1 = 1.10
@ 2 Damage Modifier = (1.1) ^ 2 = 1.21
@ 3 Damage Modifier = (1.1) ^ 3 = 1.33
@ 4 Damage Modifier = (1.1) ^ 4 = 1.46
@ 5 Damage Modifier = (1.1) ^ 5 = 1.61
Just so we're all clear: Damage Modifiers have a stacking penalty, and have had a stacking penalty for some time. It's been proven experimentally on the forums multiple times, I just don't have the thread links at hand. The fitting screen remains inaccurate for some reason. I don't know why CCP hasn't bothered to fix it since it's a perpetual source of confusion. Just had a separate thought that could resolve the problem with the TAR or any other weapon in the future that will be considered OP. Why not just raise the CPU/PG fitting requirements on the damage mods? People abuse the hell out of them and let's face it, 4-5 damage mods will make anything OP.
Maybe it would be a better idea to introduce a third "medium" slot type and lower the number of high and low slots that suits get now (overall slot numbers would basically stay the same), and then spread out the modules accordingly. This way, you get just as many slots, but less room in each type. |
XXfootnoteXX
DUST University
Ivy League
262
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 03:38:00 -
[68] - Quote
RINON114 wrote:XXfootnoteXX wrote:Sete Clifton wrote:In my opinion it should be a high damage, low rate of fire gun meant for medium to long range encounters. To do this, I suggest these general changes:
-Increase damage (around 90)
-Decrease rate of fire (120-150)
-Maybe lower clip size a little (around 15?) I could get behind this. The gun performs like it should if a nerf should happen, it should focus on the DPS. I honestly think we just need to buff other weapons so they can preform. I hope DPS for you means damage GÇ£per shotGÇ¥ and not GÇ£per secondGÇ¥. The TAR needs to have incredible damage but be almost useless in CQC, lowering the clip size should be enough.
Whoops. I meant to say rate of fire. |
Cosgar
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
709
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 03:40:00 -
[69] - Quote
Disturbingly Bored wrote:Cosgar wrote:Just had a separate thought that could resolve the problem with the TAR or any other weapon in the future that will be considered OP. Why not just raise the CPU/PG fitting requirements on the damage mods? People abuse the hell out of them and let's face it, 4-5 damage mods will make anything OP. Because then damage mods would be completely useless compared to shield extenders. Honestly, shield extender fits on anything but Heavy were already better than damage mod fits in Chromosome. (I've posted the math at length to prove this before.) For Uprising, shield extenders got a skill that makes them up to 10% more effective. Damage Mods are just fine by comparison, and the only thing keeping this from being Shield Extender 514 is Flux Grenades.
Were you calculations before or after the recent +10% damage increase? |
Kristoff Atruin
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
494
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 03:46:00 -
[70] - Quote
Ok, so I finally started using the TAR tonight and I can say with confidence that putting a hard limit on the rate of fire would do wonders to bring this weapon back into balance. Switching to the GLU with 3 enhanced damage mods took my kdr from below 1 every match to 4 or higher, but primarily because I was able to stay out of range of everyone. While scoped in I had a lot of difficulty putting out enough damage to kill someone with the GLU unless their suit was squishy, because of the kick on the distance and weak autoaim. I did put down a lot of damage though, and got a lot of assists using the gun at its max range to support other players who were closing in on the enemy. I think this was its intended role.
I also wasn't able to fire nearly as fast as most tactical users I've seen despite using a mouse and having a well practiced clicking finger. That said, I did best with this rifle when people were close enough for me to hip fire. I could just focus on clicking as fast as possible and let the autoaim take care of the rest. If the rate of fire given a hard limit that is perhaps a little slower than a diablo 3 player clicks the weapon would probably be pretty reasonable. |
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Cosgar
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
709
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Posted - 2013.05.12 03:55:00 -
[71] - Quote
Another idea would be to limit it's damage in mid/CQC range by significantly scaling its damage down the closer your target is inside your optimal range. That way in CQC, you're forced to have to use a sidearm. This would also be a somewhat helpful solution to the Logibee problem too since everyone is using the CaLogi as an assault+1 and they lack a sidearm. |
Gawen Eadan
Militaires-Sans-Frontieres
7
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 05:32:00 -
[72] - Quote
Tried it on an alt, and being a target of them, I can say its way too high powered.
I agree it should do more damage than the full auto's and at better ranges, very much so, but like many other comments here, it needs a rate of fire cap, or jamming mechanic, on the first page I saw mention of moving its role to the Caldari variants as it seems to fit that gun's firing mechanism better with the race and its purpose.
Damage should be reduced, currently the 24 bullets at nearly 80 damage on a douvolle is a stupid amount of damage that can wipe a heavy off the field with pin point accuracy, faster and farther than the heavy can reach. It should still have this advantage, but I've suggested before it should have its damage, on any variant, roughly 2x the damage of the full auto's. This ;eaves the proto sitting at a still comfortable to shoot and more so to be shot at 62, over its chromosone unfriendly 49 (almost 55 with the weaponry skill). This is still enough to put down a snug fit heavy, granted you don't miss a single shot, it also gives the softer suits another bullet worth of time to live in most fittings. |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
4060
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 16:03:00 -
[73] - Quote
If you guys want to post links to what you said before about the TAR I will be fine with it.
Thanks in advanced. |
RECON BY FIRE
Internal Error.
Negative-Feedback
147
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 16:23:00 -
[74] - Quote
The Laser should be a balancing factor against the lolTac, but unfortunately the lolTac (a short range blaster weapon) outranges the Laser. Extending Laser optimal would help keep it in check (as well as changing the horrid sighting system of the Laser). ROF of the lolTac also needs to be cut at least in half. Whether people are using modded controllers or not, being able to spam that many high damage rounds at that range is broken. Honestly Id say reduce the recoil of it by half, drop the ROF to around 200, keep damage the same, and make sure the Laser AT LEAST has the same range as it although it should outrange it. |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
4067
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 21:15:00 -
[75] - Quote
Bumping again to keep relative. So far loving the varied feedback keep it coming. |
N1ck Comeau
Pro Hic Immortalis
RISE of LEGION
352
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 21:17:00 -
[76] - Quote
Way to much damage it's time to kill is super quick |
mrunknown2u2
Ill Omens
EoN.
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 21:17:00 -
[77] - Quote
Nerf another weapon and I'm gone |
White Mortadela
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
10
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 21:34:00 -
[78] - Quote
the tactical ar doesnt need a nerf at this point, u do neeed skill to use it. but if nerfin has to go down either a 5% dmg reduction or a slight RoF reduction, but not both! |
Doshneil Antaro
SVER True Blood
Unclaimed.
51
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 21:47:00 -
[79] - Quote
Sete Clifton wrote:In my opinion it should be a high damage, low rate of fire gun meant for medium to long range encounters. To do this, I suggest these general changes:
-Increase damage (around 90)
-Decrease rate of fire (120-150)
-Maybe lower clip size a little (around 15?)
These plus ammo capacity. This weapon takes less ammo to kill, is more acurate than other ars, and round comsuption is the best as your not wasting 10 rnds to land 4-6, more like 9 out of 10 rds find the target. The other ar's need more ammo to do the same damge, but yet this gets the most. |
Vaux Karn
The Mercenary Collective
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 21:58:00 -
[80] - Quote
As an operator and target, my suggestion would be simply lower the rate of fire to the 150-200 region. Closer to 150 would also eliminate the need for any other modifications by limiting its viability in close quarters, but then again that may be too much. Regardless with an unmodded controller I can put off 4-5 shot per second and that is too high. Anyone who says I am wrong is cordially invited to stand on the recieving end of the searing hot, flesh melting plasma that spews forth from it, then come back here and see if they feel the same. |
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White Mortadela
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
10
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 22:01:00 -
[81] - Quote
Even with a good mouse the most u can fire is 4 rounds per s. |
Jathniel
G I A N T
EoN.
312
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 23:04:00 -
[82] - Quote
(With recent changes, it seems CCP is listening again. In that case, I will participate again.)
Not much needs to be done with the Tactical.
It's been my weapon of choice since I've dropped the sniper rifle.
Here are points on refining the Tactical:
- I can confirm that modded controllers are NOT an issue for the Tactical AR.
Tested using a "Steel Series 3GC PC Gaming Controller" which, as of Uprising, is fully compatible with Dust514. Turbo function enabled on R1. There was no significant increase to RoF when in ADS, and recoil was severe enough to totally discourage automatic use. However, there was a noticeable increase in RoF when hip-firing. The same applies for modded mouse inputs using a CronusX device... recoil is too high for the mouse to mitigate.
- Clip size and ammo capacity is disproportionately higher than other weapons. Therefore I recommend keeping the clip size for both Tactical assault rifles at 24 rounds, and cutting maximum ammo down to 120 rounds.
24 rounds in a clip with 4 clips on standby. 30 rounds in a clip and 300 rounds on standby for the Duvolle Tactical AR is too high. (The weapons range and dps is too high to maintain such sustained fire.)
- Range and damage on the Tactical are fine. Recoil is well mitigated. Simply cut the number of rounds available to Tactical users, to reduce them running around the field with wreckless abandon. As a Tactical user, if I ran out of ammo as quickly on a Tac, as I do using a full-auto, I'd pick my engagements way more carefully. |
Draco Dustflier
Planetary Response Organisation
50
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 23:09:00 -
[83] - Quote
slight damage increase and make it so you cannot fire again until the sight resets. 3 hit kills are ok if they take a second and a half |
Jathniel
G I A N T
EoN.
312
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 23:12:00 -
[84] - Quote
(With recent changes, it seems CCP is listening again. In that case, I will participate again.)
Not much needs to be done with the Tactical.
It's been my weapon of choice since I've dropped the sniper rifle.
Here are points on refining the Tactical:
- I can confirm that modded controllers are NOT an issue for the Tactical AR.
Tested using a "Steel Series 3GC PC Gaming Controller" which, as of Uprising, is fully compatible with Dust514. Turbo function enabled on R1. There was no significant increase to RoF when in ADS, and recoil was severe enough to totally discourage automatic use. However, there was a noticeable increase in RoF when hip-firing. The same applies for modded mouse inputs using a CronusX device... recoil is too high for the mouse to mitigate.
- Clip size and ammo capacity is disproportionately higher than other weapons. Therefore I recommend keeping the clip size for both Tactical assault rifles at 24 rounds, and cutting maximum ammo down to 120 rounds.
24 rounds in a clip with 4 clips on standby. 30 rounds in a clip and 300 rounds(10 clips!) on standby for the Duvolle Tactical AR is TOO high. (The weapons range and dps is too high to maintain such sustained fire.)
- Recommend increasing hipfire spread by 50% to discourage using the Tactical in CQC.
I can simply sidestep, and hipfire a heavy or shotgun user without consequence.
Range and damage on the Tactical are fine. Recoil is well mitigated. Simply cut the number of rounds available to Tactical users, to reduce them running around the field with wreckless abandon. As a Tactical user, if I ran out of ammo as quickly on a Tac, as I do using a full-auto, I'd pick my engagements way more carefully.
Furthermore, not everyone can use a Tactical. It's not the use-to-win weapon that the Chromosome AR was. Many people would get killed by a Tactical, but not have the skill to use it as well. This is a sign of a well balanced weapon.
Double post by accident. |
Phoenix Arakyd
Tronhadar Free Guard
Minmatar Republic
82
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 23:31:00 -
[85] - Quote
ladwar wrote:its high RoF of is being abused by modded controller. so change the RoF simple, been saying it for a while.
proof? |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
League of Infamy
952
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 23:31:00 -
[86] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Hey Guys just a heads up.
It has been brought to the CPM's attention that there are concerns over the Tactical Assault Rifle. After some discussing the CPM believes that its best for the community to describe the nature of the Tactical Assault Rifle and we would really like to hear from all of you on the weapon.
This includes both Operators of Tactical Assault Rifle and the Targets of Tactical Assault Rifle.
So leave your thoughts from any point of view on the weapon we will check back on it.
The purpose of this is not to talk balance but to give feedback to CCP in a compact easy to find place before CCP gets the chance to do anything to it. Research if you will. So comment about what you think of the rifle honest from your point of view, and focus on what you really think of it and far less about trying to balance it. You should also include all environmental concerns involving the gun such as bad aiming, uprising woes and control issues that may be a factor in this gun sticking out too far verses most other weapons.
If you need to, include outside variables such as other ARs, suits, weapons, or scenarios involving the TAR.
The TAR under Uprising out performs the parameters of any given battlefield role. It has extensive range, high alpha, an uncapped RoF and kick insufficient to prevent landing 3-4 body shots at range (the number needed to kill the majority of fits out there if the TAR user is tacking 2-4 damage mods).
Since Uprising I have numerous times witnessed the TAR win fights with the LR at extended range. I have also seen the TAR dominate the shotgun in CQC, for example killing a scout suit (from full HP) so quickly that the TAR user has time to turn 90 degrees and kill the flanking scout (without strafing or other evasive action) before the scout is able to fire a second shotgun blast.
The TAR is also increasingly common within matches of every game type to the point where it is fairly common place to see entire squads running nothing else and taking the top spots for kills by a fair margin. Thus far within the Uprising build the only two tactics I've seen reliably break the field control of 4+ TAR users over a given area is either A) concentrated sniper fire or B) heavy vehicle use (not as in HAVs alone, but rather heavy use of vehicles).
The simple problem is that the TAR within current context can do too many things too well. It has no battlefield role because it can reliably preform in most battlefield roles to the point where its use is diminishing game diversity as more and more players migrate into it's use (and this even with the current constraints of the new Uprising SP costs).
0.02 ISK
Cross
PS ~ To be clear while the TAR has problems on its own it is really the TAR + excessively stacked damage mods/lack of proper stacking penalty on damage mods, that results in the major problems so when conveying feedback to CCP be sure the problem with mods is highlighted. |
Baal Omniscient
L.O.T.I.S.
RISE of LEGION
506
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 23:32:00 -
[87] - Quote
I used the Tac until it became a death cannon. I used it for a few matches after the damage bump, then laughed and put it away because it just makes things FAR too easy. I'll use the burst 'til that beast calms down a bit.
It's the damage and the ROF. Fix one and the other will be fine. |
Draco Dustflier
Planetary Response Organisation
50
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 23:56:00 -
[88] - Quote
White Mortadela wrote:Even with a good mouse the most u can fire is 4 rounds per s.
i get 8 rps without a modded controller. third of a second delay, please. |
Charizard Zakalwe
Goonfeet
42
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 00:01:00 -
[89] - Quote
The TAR's (especially the duvolle one) do a crazy amount of damage with a seemingly unlimited rate of fire. It's ROF certainly needs to be capped as well as having it's range tied down to that of the regular AR's. It's extra 'range' should be represented by having a longer effective range than the regular range. Maybe. Also higher hipfire. While you can't use them ADS at close range, you don't really use regular AR's while ADS at close range, hipfire remains king. While you've got less ammunition to hipfire with, the hits that do land more than make up for it. |
Chilled Pill
Pro Hic Immortalis
RISE of LEGION
62
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 00:08:00 -
[90] - Quote
Reduce damage to 69-70 for Duv Tac, give it worse dispersion at hip fire. Make it Scout only.
Done. |
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