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Kaathe DUST University Ivy League 59	Posted - 2013.05.24 06:15:00 - [181] - Quote I've been using the TAR since the invite only closed beta. And I've seen the ups and downs that this weapon has gone through. At first this weapon was a hidden gem. Barely anyone knew that this weapon existed... At least not until everyone had enough skill points to use it. The TAR was used as it was intended for, medium range engagement and anti-sniper (where the sniper was close enough to hit). It had full auto fire which caused a little abuse but it's reduced clip size prevented over abuse. 2nd build: TAR was fine. Or rather fixed since it had full auto instead of the single shots. Still being used as intended. No abuse, at least nothing that I've seen. Chromosome: This is were the nerf shot it down. Unusable. No one had an option to counter snipers... Hence the red line sniping problem and other sniper issues. Now: Back to where the 2nd was. Working as it was made for. But at this point it was open beta where more brains thought of ways to abuse the weapon... Because for some exploits is what they live for. I am tired of how the TAR went up and down in strength. It's a great weapon to use. Probably the only one that is an expert at the range it covers. But that's the problem... It's the only one so far. It's too soon to request change when the SR just released. Covering the weapon itself: this weapon is a bit fast for the range it covers. I thought it was slower and treated it as such. The damage is fair seeing that it covers a longer range and having a reduced clip size. In a sense I thought it was a stronger and longer range breach. The TAR has been favored and hated, as should all weapons be. Waiting is what we need to do. Wait for other alternatives to be released.
Soraya Xel New Eden's Most Wanted Gentlemen's Agreement 75	Posted - 2013.05.24 07:15:00 - [182] - Quote Jenova's Witness wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: I love the feel of the TAR. Assault rifles generally come in auto, burst, and single-shot versions, and the TAR delivers well on the single-shot AR. That being said... it's OP. As a TAR user... like, for serious, few to no players pose a challenge to it, except for other TARs. Then we get in a TAR-off until someone dies. When people using an OP weapon say that it's OP, we have a serious problem. I think most people using the TAR realize it's OP. For many, it's probably why they're using it. (I just usually either snipe or AR, and AR has been more satisfying this build. And I'm willing to call an OP gun OP.)
Niccolo deLuce Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 2	Posted - 2013.05.24 09:44:00 - [183] - Quote The problem wit the TAR is that it's exactly like a real life AR. There's a reason every army in the world uses roughly equivalent ones, and also a reason why almost no trained fighters use fully automatic fire. This is a game though. The ROF definitely needs to be dropped, it is currently higher than that of the full auto version. It does much more dmg, realistically fires almost as fast, suffers from less spread, and can shoot farther. There's no reason to not use them
Kesi Raae Kaae Much Crying Old Experts 79	Posted - 2013.05.24 09:56:00 - [184] - Quote You have a Shotgun and got the jump on me? Too bad, I have a TAR and can spam the trigger and kill you before you kill me.
Orion Vahid Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation 6	Posted - 2013.05.24 10:44:00 - [185] - Quote Am I the only Heavy who wishes that they invested in TAC AR instead of HMG?
Battle Android Trooper Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 5	Posted - 2013.05.24 11:00:00 - [186] - Quote Kesi Raae Kaae wrote: You have a Shotgun and got the jump on me? Too bad, I have a TAR and can spam the trigger and kill you before you kill me. +1
Imp Smash On The Brink CRONOS. 109	Posted - 2013.05.24 11:35:00 - [187] - Quote I am of the opinion that the fire rate be reduced somewhat to between 400 and 500 rpm - and have the optimum (only the optimum) range reduced to match comparable rifles. I do not think max range or damage should be reduced. OR Reduce optimum range to be on par with comparable rifles and increase recoil moderately. Either will slow down the ridiculous firing and moderate the damage output without changing bullet damage. I do not think bullet damage should be dropped. Part of the TAR is to be able to score heavy damage fast with precise shots.
Cybus Trama'dol EYE Security Task Force and Resources Acquisition 61	Posted - 2013.05.24 12:14:00 - [188] - Quote Dale Templar wrote: Personally, it's fine the way it is but if you must... Reduce RoF so people stop going on about modded controllers, but a reasonable person can still fire as fast as they pull the trigger. Reduce clipsize to 15. Everyone's happy. But do NOT mess with the range, it's a DMR/M14/Battle Rifle basically, it's made for medium-long range. This (Maybe a magazine of 10) plus a major hipfire nerf. And before the TAR users QQ, switch to your sidearm for CQC, thats what it's for I used my refunded dropsuit SP to try the DTAR last night before my respec. And yes my kills went up exponentially in only an ADV basic medium frame. So yeah rocking one of these with a shield tanked Caldari Logi = GODMODE No real skill required just spam the trigger and soak up the enemy bullets so you win by sustainability by default so maybe all the MLGPro crouchwalkers will have to start earning their kills again.. QQ moar
Jenova's Witness Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire 16	Posted - 2013.05.24 12:54:00 - [189] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Jenova's Witness wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: I love the feel of the TAR. Assault rifles generally come in auto, burst, and single-shot versions, and the TAR delivers well on the single-shot AR. That being said... it's OP. As a TAR user... like, for serious, few to no players pose a challenge to it, except for other TARs. Then we get in a TAR-off until someone dies. When people using an OP weapon say that it's OP, we have a serious problem. I think most people using the TAR realize it's OP. For many, it's probably why they're using it. (I just usually either snipe or AR, and AR has been more satisfying this build. And I'm willing to call an OP gun OP.) Realize or care? The people using it exclusively come in two flavors: -They're tryhards that want to be the best at everything while terms like balance and tradeoffs are foreign to them. All that matters is winning to them, no matter if it ruins everyone else's fun. They probably used Viziams with stacked damage mods last build. -They're using the TAR because everyone else is using it. They'd probably use something else, but there's no other way. I cam't blame them, either. If I didn't throw all my SP into the HMG, I'd probably be using the TAR myself despite my utter hate of the AR class right now. Devs go above and beyond to nerf the hell out of everything else, but why won't they touch their precious AR. One weapon isn't going to bring in FPS players. Weapon balance and good FPS mechanics will. Balance the damn weapons and stop CoDdling the AR.
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. Interstellar Murder of Crows 196	Posted - 2013.05.24 13:00:00 - [190] - Quote Scrubs use crutches like the TAR. GOML, use CQC weapons exclusively.

Synthetic Surrogate Venilen Eugenics Agency 62	Posted - 2013.05.24 13:01:00 - [191] - Quote Before my coming respec I decided to invest enough SP to get the GLU TAC so I could see what is what like. I run a Min scout with 3 complex shield modules and I swear this thing has OHK me. After using it (without any damage mods) the main thing I noticed was.. There does not appear to be any recoil what so ever. I thought recoil was the biggest drawback to this gun? Reading through the forums people were saying the recoil was sever and because of that it takes skill to use it. Am I missing something? Maybe the one I got didn't come with recoil.
Cybus Trama'dol EYE Security Task Force and Resources Acquisition 61	Posted - 2013.05.24 13:20:00 - [192] - Quote Synthetic Surrogate wrote: I thought recoil was the biggest drawback to this gun? Reading through the forums people were saying the recoil was sever and because of that it takes skill to use it. Am I missing something? Maybe the one I got didn't come with recoil. If you justify it in your head enough you can see the "recoil" its just like looking at the matrix
Shotty GoBang Pro Hic Immortalis RISE of LEGION 29	Posted - 2013.05.24 13:31:00 - [193] - Quote Kesi Raae Kaae wrote: You have a Shotgun and got the jump on me? Too bad, I have a TAR and can spam the trigger and kill you before you kill me. +1. You see, what happened was ... https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=840009#post840009
Rei Shepard Spectre II 303	Posted - 2013.05.24 13:36:00 - [194] - Quote Cybus Trama'dol wrote: Synthetic Surrogate wrote: I thought recoil was the biggest drawback to this gun? Reading through the forums people were saying the recoil was sever and because of that it takes skill to use it. Am I missing something? Maybe the one I got didn't come with recoil. If you justify it in your head enough you can see the "recoil" its just like looking at the matrix It has recoil, but not for anyone with a good aim.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 354	Posted - 2013.05.24 14:17:00 - [195] - Quote It's been about two weeks since this thread was started, I assume they've absorbed the impact of the TAR now (really just playing a few battles would probably do that as well). So, will we get feedback on our feedback?
Jenova's Witness Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire 19	Posted - 2013.05.24 14:21:00 - [196] - Quote Zeylon Rho wrote: It's been about two weeks since this thread was started, I assume they've absorbed the impact of the TAR now (really just playing a few battles would probably do that as well). So, will we get feedback on our feedback? We'll get info on MTACS before we hear anything about this damn thing being sorted out. It's probably safe to assume the TAR will remain untouched like an 18 year old altar boy.
Mads Katter Nova Corps Marines Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 18	Posted - 2013.05.24 20:01:00 - [197] - Quote I for one am getting tired of this "It's a moded controller. There is no way he can fire that fast and be so accurate" debate on the T ARs. I personally know quite a few Paintballers that CAN pull a trigger that fast and that accurate. Want Video Proof? How hard would it be to adapt that to a controller or Kb/M? Ever watch Pro Gamming tournaments and notice the way they play? Obviously not or this portion of the argument would be non-existent. Now do I think the T AR is unbalanced? To a degree, yes, but I'm saving my critique of it until the rest of the Racial goodies come out (hopefully sooner than later). CCP should realize by now that without it all out and being used by the populace there is no true way to balance weapons or gear old or new. This is core stuff that SHOULD NOT be added in tri-monthly expansions unless the skill tree supports them (which it doesn't). Heavies and Lights and various weapons/vehicle classes will need to be able to respec their skills EVERY time new CORE content is introduced which is just not satisfactory. TL;DR If Paintballers and Pro Gamers can shoot that fast so can people in game without a "modded" controller. There can be no real balance of the T AR, or any weapon, until we get the rest of the Racial goodies. CCP we NEED our Racial Goodies Now (or at least by E-3 )
Synthetic Perception Venilen Eugenics Agency 18	Posted - 2013.05.24 21:37:00 - [198] - Quote Cybus Trama'dol wrote: Synthetic Surrogate wrote: I thought recoil was the biggest drawback to this gun? Reading through the forums people were saying the recoil was sever and because of that it takes skill to use it. Am I missing something? Maybe the one I got didn't come with recoil. If you justify it in your head enough you can see the "recoil" its just like looking at the matrix LOL +1 thanks for the laugh. Suspension of disbelief. In all seriousness I noticed something like that while using it. It was almost like the scope appeared to show recoil and "bounce" when I shot, however the little "dot" in the middle of the scope didn't seem to move. Hard to explain without consulting Morpheus I guess.
Skilfer Nova Corps Marines Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 32	Posted - 2013.05.24 22:35:00 - [199] - Quote Cybus Trama'dol wrote: Synthetic Surrogate wrote: I thought recoil was the biggest drawback to this gun? Reading through the forums people were saying the recoil was sever and because of that it takes skill to use it. Am I missing something? Maybe the one I got didn't come with recoil. If you justify it in your head enough you can see the "recoil" its just like looking at the matrix Always good to see one of our EYE brothers around the DUST forums o7
137H4RGIC SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 75	Posted - 2013.05.24 22:38:00 - [200] - Quote @ OP: As a steady Heavy, I think it's rediculously stupid that a Tac Duvolle can burn through 75% of my health in 1-2 seconds because people are getting modded controllers to fire the gun as fast as possible. Even when they are in my range, they're still a challenge. Most TAR users, I kill straight away, but I do think that when an enemy team is comprised of only TARs, there's something wrong with the mechanics of the weapon.

iceyburnz Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 482	Posted - 2013.05.24 22:40:00 - [201] - Quote I think the TAR is fine. Its deadly at medium range. Laser rifles out range it. Its pretty bad up close unless you get a lucky hit in.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 358	Posted - 2013.05.24 22:43:00 - [202] - Quote 137H4RGIC wrote: @ OP: As a steady Heavy, I think it's rediculously stupid that a Tac Duvolle can burn through 75% of my health in 1-2 seconds because people are getting modded controllers to fire the gun as fast as possible. Even when they are in my range, they're still a challenge. Most TAR users, I kill straight away, but I do think that when an enemy team is comprised of only TARs, there's something wrong with the mechanics of the weapon. True.
Skilfer Nova Corps Marines Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 32	Posted - 2013.05.24 22:50:00 - [203] - Quote iceyburnz wrote: I think the TAR is fine. Its deadly at medium range. Laser rifles out range it. Its pretty bad up close unless you get a lucky hit in. This statement is false, the TAR out-ranges the LR as is seen in the stats post-Uprising range stats here.
Buster Friently Rosen Association 527	Posted - 2013.05.24 23:03:00 - [204] - Quote ROF needs reduced at a bare minimum. Alternatively, keep the ROF but drop the damage per shot dramatically. TAR also needs some kind of short range malus. Currently, it is too good over it's entire regime ove the competing weapons over the regime.
Obodiah Garro Tech Guard General Tso's Alliance 11	Posted - 2013.05.25 02:19:00 - [205] - Quote As a TAC user I believe the only fair and proper balance the weapon needs is a drop in its maximum ROF. If am correct most of the frustration around this weapon is the result of glass cannons running around melting people in CQC. All of the weapons attributes are needed in order to make it work as its intended role, i.e. marksmen rifle. Capping the ROF will/should dissuade the run and gun nuts whelping everybody while not even aiming, and abate the flood of tears everywhere.
Matakage WildCard Ninja Clan 170	Posted - 2013.05.25 02:22:00 - [206] - Quote [Feedback/Request] 3 Sensible Nerfs for the Tactical AR As with any discussion regarding game balance, it's important to first agree on definitions, standards, ideals, or all of the above if necessary, so let's first define the role of the Tactical Assault rifle: The distinguishing features of the Tactical Assault Rifle (TAR) include the dot sight, the optimal and maximum range, the damage, the firing type (semi-auto), the rate of fire, and the name itself. Even when you only consider that the TAR in comparison to the AR has a more precise aiming sight, longer range, and is single shot, it is safe to assume that the role of the TAR is precise single-shot placement at ranges including and extending beyond that of an AR. Now that it's established what a TAR is supposed to do, corrections can be made based on deviations from this role -- especially deviations which replace the traditional roles of other weapon types. For the sake of brevity, I won't define the role of the Assault Rifle (AR), but will do so as needed. Also, my personal testing and experience is with the Tactical Duvolle AR, but there is no reason why these changes shouldn't apply to the GLU-5 as well. So first of all, this may or nay not surprise you, but here is the first baseline that should be established: There should be no change in damage, optimal range, or maximum range. This is what most defines the TAR's role, thus it should not be changed. What should be changed, however, directly relates to its defined role and the deviations from that role which replace the role of the regular AR. To put it more simply, wherever the TAR is "stepping on the toes" of the AR, or being more useful than the AR where it shouldn't be, this needs to be changed. 1. Reduced Rate of Fire In my personal experience with the gun I never thought of this as a problem, but upon further testing I realized how exploitable and contrary to the TAR role it really is. As listed in the weapon stats, the rate of fire (ROF) is 789, which is higher than the Duvolle AR's 750. This alone is perplexing, but understandable when you consider that it's a semi-auto gun. It's not full auto, so who cares what the ROF is? While it is difficult to achieve this speed with repeated tapping of the finger, the idea that the increased ROF is an odd but harmless statistic is completely thrown out the window when you introduce a controller with a turbo feature. Now the rate of fire is completely exploitable, causing the TAR to be far superior to the AR in close and medium-range combat. For comparison, I tried the Breach variant of ARs and found that its ROF of 400 seemed pretty acceptible for TAR. A little higher or lower may not be a huge deal, but definitely not more than 500. For those interested in some hard numbers behind this, I did a little math for comparison: Duvolle AR: 37.4 DMG x 750 ROF = 28050 DMG per unit time Duvolle TAR: 78.5 DMG x 789.5 ROF = 61975 DMG per unit time Now, if you wanted to make the TAR's damage per unit time equal to the Duvolle AR, you would have to reduce the ROF to 357.3 (28050 / 78.5 = 357.3). This is why I believe that a ROF of 400, 420, or even 450 might still be appropriate. Keep in mind, the weapons are NOT equal. The TAR requires AR Proficiency I, so the DMG per unit time should be higher. Ultimately, however, the decision regarding ROF should not be made based on DMG per unit time, but rather an acceptible human limitation of button-pressing speed. In other words, the ideal ROF should try to match and not exceed the upper limit of a human's capacity to tap the trigger as quickly as possible. However, this problem, regardless of rate of fire, is further compounded by the need for... 2. Increased bullet spread at hip fire. This is, I believe, the number one issue regarding the the TAR being over-powered. At first I tried to operate the gun as expected -- I set myself up for shots at medium-long range, capitalizing on my optimal range advantage. Soon I realized that at 20, 30, almost up to 40 meters I could tap the trigger as quickly as I could from hip-fire and still take down targets. Now, I estimate that it takes around 6-8 shots to kill someone when aiming center-mass with the TAR. The math, damage mods included, also supports this. Even with a restricted ROF of 400, these shots happen very quickly. With the current rate of fire, it's incredibly efficient. Simply put, hip-fire bullet spread of the TAR is way too tight, completely negating the role of the AR in close to medium range situations. So now we have to ask ourselves what is appropriate bullet-spread. Again, the role of the TAR is medium-long range encounters using the dot sight, and the role of the AR should surpass the TAR in close and medium range situations. Since I have no idea how to quantify bullet spread over different ranges, the best way to describe what is appropriate would be to give an situation and tweak the bullet spread mechanics based upon that. You are using the TAR and you want to find a different angle of attack. You rush forward, turn around a blind corner and an enemy is right there facing you, 10 meters away. It's far too close for the dot sight, so you tap the button as quickly as you can from hip fire. You kill the enemy, but take significant damage as well. I believe that the TAR should definitely be reliable from hip-fire in those "Oh crap!" 0-15 meter confrontations, but should be increasingly unreliable beyond that point. A player should feel like it's pointless to attempt hip-firing from 30 meters or beyond. But again, even with a reduced rate of fire and increased bullet spread at hip fire, players will still likely play the odds and fire at opponents from 30 meters and beyond considering only 6 - 8 of those shots need to hit their mark. The reason for this gamble is because there needs to be...
Matakage WildCard Ninja Clan 170	Posted - 2013.05.25 02:22:00 - [207] - Quote 3. Reduced clip size. Now, I know what you're thinking -- it's already 30. That's half the amount of the Duvolle AR clip size. But to that, I would ask this question: Q: How many enemies can you kill with a single clip of a Duvolle Assault Rifle? A:1, maybe 2, depending on their suit. Most of us AR users reload after each kill, and even between each couple bursts of fire. However, think of those times when you are very close to your opponent, face to face, strafing, and need to unload as much as you can while your crosshair remains on your opponent as much as possible. It takes most of a clip. You might kill 2 with a single clip, but you're certainly not killing 3. Okay, stop. Are you satisfied with my anecdotal evidence? Cuz I'm not. Here are the numbers: 600 EHP Enemy vs. Duvolle AR: 600 / ~40 DMG = 15 bullets...? Which takes how long? 750 bullets / 60 seconds = 15 bullets / x seconds --> (15x60)=750x --> 900/750=x --> x = 1.2 seconds This actually sounds about right. A second is a long time in battle. However, this assumes 100% accuracy, which nobody is with an AR. However, it's reasonable to assume that the accuracy in close quarters is much greater than a good statistical average of around 20%. Let's just say it takes about 1.5 seconds and about half a clip on a good day. Now, to accurately compare the TAR with the AR in terms of enemies killed per clip, one needs to consider the nature of the weapon. By being semi-auto rather than fully automatic, the TAR somewhat encourages bullet conservation; you can only pull the trigger so fast, and you're less likely to pull it when your crosshair is not on your target. This differs pretty greatly from AR behavior, where holding the trigger and sweeping over your target can be pretty effective at most ranges. So with the AR, you always reload after a kill, because if you started firing at the second guy you'd probably have to reload before you killed them. The TAR, on the other hand, only needs 6 - 8 bullets to hit, so blowing through all 30 bullets from hipfire at medium range is a pretty good tactic, especially considering the firing rate and bullet-spread from hip. TAR 30 clip size \ 7 bullets to kill (@ 100% accuracy) = 4.3 enemies killed AR 60 clip size \ 15 bullets to kill (@ 100% accuracy) = 4 enemies killed Hey, did I just invalidate my own 'clip size' argument with math? You might think so, but now we must refer back to the role of the TAR and the first statement. I never had any problem with the range or damage of the TAR. But now you must ask yourself: Where is the anecdotal evidence for amount of kills per clip size, and how does that relate to the desired play style? If we accept that 1-2 kills is suitable for an AR per clip size, then should we also accept that 1-2 kills is suitable for the TAR clip size? That's 15 bullets per clip, but I think 20 is more appropriate. When the TAR is used as intended, 20 bullets is enough to kill 2 targets before reloading. It is meant for precise shots, so 7/10 bullets hitting the mark is 70% accuracy. That sounds right for a tactical gun. Even with 50% accuracy, you're definitely getting 1 kill per clip. That's right on par with the AR. (Remember? You can kill 1 enemy, but probably not 2 before having to reload.) With a clip size of 30, you are encouraging hip-firing at medium range and giving an unncessary advantage to those using it correctly with the sights at long range. To conclude, here are the 3 ways to nerf the TAR: 1. Reduced rate of fire so it cannot exceed the reasonable human extent of button-pressing speed. (ROF ~400) 2. Increased hip-fire bullet-spread so that an AR is by far a better option beyond 10-15 meters. 3. Reduced clip size to 20 to discourage rapid hip-firing and stay within 2 kills per clip size. Thanks to all of you who read all of this! It took pretty much the whole day to make, so I appreciate it. I just want to see the TAR fulfilling its role as fairly as possible without making the AR role obsolete. I really hope my suggestions and evidence supporting those suggestions helps CCP apply changes as quickly as possible. Sincerely, Matakage
Obodiah Garro Tech Guard General Tso's Alliance 11	Posted - 2013.05.25 02:25:00 - [208] - Quote Matakage wrote: TL/DR Reduce the ROF and dismiss my other ludicrous points
RINON114 B.S.A.A. General Tso's Alliance 171	Posted - 2013.05.25 03:27:00 - [209] - Quote Obodiah Garro wrote: Matakage wrote: TL/DR Reduce the ROF and dismiss my other ludicrous points SO. MUCH. THIS.
Jenza's Pants Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 12	Posted - 2013.05.25 03:41:00 - [210] - Quote iceyburnz wrote: I think the TAR is fine. Its deadly at medium range. Laser rifles out range it. Its pretty bad up close unless you get a lucky hit in. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJ6ElktLoFY Yes, useless up close.



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