We are not in Commercial Release. Any statements of such from a GM was inaccurate.

We are not in Commercial Release. Any statements of such from a GM was inaccurate.

We are not in Commercial Release. Any statements of such from a GM was inaccurate.

So we will get are AUR back then

CCP really needs to step up their game in terms of communicating. I'm not taking about with us but with themselves (as in the GMs and Devs).

But overall, CCP does have a ton of petitions to handle. Consider this:

Eve Online (Tranquility Server - London): 500,000 Subscribers
Eve Online (Serenity Server - China): about 100,000 or less subscribers
Dust 514 (Tranquility Server): About 400,000 to 500,000 free accounts (assuming every player has created 3 alt characters)

That's well over a million players to handle petitions from.

That's gonna be a lot of AUR to refund. I hope this doesn't screw over the New Eden economy when it opens.

We are not in Commercial Release. Any statements of such from a GM was inaccurate.

Just FYI, according to dustboard, there are almost 2 million mercs created. Even if everyone had 3 characters, we'd be looking at nearly 700,000 dust accounts.

Don't think so. Aur refund should mean that you get a total wipe of SP and assets. And you don't want it to happen, right?

Aur refund should mean that you get a total wipe of SP and assets.

I bought my merc packs from PSN store (7 of them) 7-8 months ago. If i recall right it said (at that time in merc packs) that AUR is refunded when moving into Commercial Release ( not needing any wipe to that ).

And so you Banned Noc (yes he is banned from forums now) for this?

All you had to do was remove the link, lock the post and give your explaination. Seems a little overkill wouldn't you say CCP ETERNE?

We are not in Commercial Release. Any statements of such from a GM was inaccurate.

Well if a$$holes keep pushing for aur refund and we get it, that means sp wipe too, and reset of assets.
Which means everyone (including myself) who purchased all bpo items before the price increase will lose those too. So those of us who created militia fits for cheap to fall back on....will be forced to spend $30 on one militia fit.
Carry on trying to F uck things up people, you may just manage it.
If the above happens, as much as I love dust, I'm done!

Well if a$$holes keep pushing for aur refund and we get it, that means sp wipe too, and reset of assets.
Which means everyone (including myself) who purchased all bpo items before the price increase will lose those too. So those of us who created militia fits for cheap to fall back on....will be forced to spend $30 on one militia fit.
Carry on trying to F uck things up people, you may just manage it.
If the above happens, as much as I love dust, I'm done!

I bought my merc packs from PSN store (7 of them) 7-8 months ago. If i recall right it said (at that time in merc packs) that AUR is refunded when moving into Commercial Release ( not needing any wipe to that ).

That's gonna be a lot of AUR to refund. I hope this doesn't screw over the New Eden economy when it opens.

Well if a$$holes keep pushing for aur refund and we get it, that means sp wipe too, and reset of assets.
Which means everyone (including myself) who purchased all bpo items before the price increase will lose those too. So those of us who created militia fits for cheap to fall back on....will be forced to spend $30 on one militia fit.
Carry on trying to F uck things up people, you may just manage it.
If the above happens, as much as I love dust, I'm done!

I'm afraid I can't comment on any plans for an AUR refund at the present moment. I will look into getting a more definitive answer for you guys.

Can we assume that this means someone is actually looking into this instead of leaving the question open indefinitely?

and where did this thread come from anyway?

seems very random to me.

I have removed discussion of moderation from this thread.

Well if a$$holes keep pushing for aur refund and we get it, that means sp wipe too, and reset of assets.
Which means everyone (including myself) who purchased all bpo items before the price increase will lose those too. So those of us who created militia fits for cheap to fall back on....will be forced to spend $30 on one militia fit.
Carry on trying to F uck things up people, you may just manage it.
If the above happens, as much as I love dust, I'm done!

Well if a$$holes keep pushing for aur refund and we get it, that means sp wipe too, and reset of assets.
Which means everyone (including myself) who purchased all bpo items before the price increase will lose those too. So those of us who created militia fits for cheap to fall back on....will be forced to spend $30 on one militia fit.
Carry on trying to F uck things up people, you may just manage it.
If the above happens, as much as I love dust, I'm done!

Yes. I sent out an e-mail about it a few minutes ago and will be following up on getting a proper answer in the next few days. But it is Easter and a large number of our team will be on holiday, so it may take some time to get a response.

I hope you do. I was told marketing was looking into it back in Jan 24, and, well, here we are.

Yes. I sent out an e-mail about it a few minutes ago and will be following up on getting a proper answer in the next few days. But it is Easter and a large number of our team will be on holiday, so it may take some time to get a response.

That's a comment on how comical the AUR prices are, not how awesome early adopter discounts were. To be frank, bpos should be removed from the game entirely save the 4 default fits and EXTREMELY RARE prizes.

Isn't the whole idea of that thread in violation of forum rule number 9?

it is


i sense a double standard

making money will ALLWAYS be the primary focus maken, there's only so much we can do

That ship has sailed and quite awhile ago, removal now either means
A) Creating a new and deeper disadvantage for new players
B) Taking away beta rewards, prizes, promotions and purchases from a lot of testers/players who've been supporting the game. (Note: it's not just taking away one of the above, it would require taking away rewards & prizes & promotions & purchases. All of them not used synonymously).

Either one is a very poor choice from a customer relations/PR perspective as it violates stability of the game and customer trust.
You cannot conduct a successful micro transaction module if people don't know from one day to the next if their purchases will behave in remotely the same manner as when they were purchased, or even exist at all.

Non-introduction of said BPOs would have been a viable choice, removal is simply a terrible idea across the boards.

~ Cross

They will make more money if people know they will get all their AUR back *excluding boosters of course*

To be honest, now that I have looked deeply into it, it would probably be best for CCP to just refund the AURUM and leave the assets in place. Assuming CCP does things right, more customers will arrive and it will be best to just get it over with before then or else they'll be in a pickle when people ask for refunds of this nature by the millions.

Kind of like when you get pulled over by a cop for speeding and cop tells you "Sir, I'm just 5 minutes away from finishing my shift. Give me a reason that I haven't heard already on why I shouldn't give you a ticket and I'll let you go."

Nowhere says that the two must go hand-in-hand. Sure, it's how it's been happening in the past, but they aren't tied to each other.

It is definitely a delicate situation for CCP to handle.
They did change the terms of merc pack sales around open beta (to remove any mention of reset on release), so if they reset it will probably only be for closed beta sales (still quite a bit).

A total reset would be a nightmare:
-people that bought militia BPOs when they were super cheap would be angry.
-people that have been grinding SP every day since open beta would be angry.
-people that have been stockpiling ISK would be angry.
-the reset would occur right as Planetary Conquest begins
- the only benefit might be for new players who join in on release to not be up against proto suits

A reset of just merc pack and AUR purchases from before the sales agreement change would also cause problems:
-people not included would feel it is unfair
-if the reset/refund doesn't effect SP people will be essentially getting free boosters (who used their AUR for that)
-if items bought with AUR weren't tracked and removed properly (or already used) it could lead to more complaints.

Either way CCP would lose a lot of potential future sales. Sure the merc packs sold would not cause a loss (they are virtual items, free to restore) but that would also mean fewer merc packs and AUR people would buy again in the near future.

I bought two merc packs before open beta and personally would rather support the game than make demands on a technicality. As long as there is no SP wipe or character reset, I feel I put my AUR and 30 day boosters to use as intended.

So basically what you're saying is that CCP is screwed no matter which route they take. Appease the pro-refund folks and you pee off those who see it as unfair for those who didn't invest any AUR and create a problem with the Dust economy and ultimately nearly kill Dust (which is really, really bad). Appease the anti-refund folks and you end up with a bunch of closed-beta players wanting to file a lawsuit on the company which would result in the loss of revenue needed to sustain Dust.

Wow, there is no solution to this.

AUR is used to gain an SP advantage (boosters) and to buy higher tiered items early. If CCP refunded all AUR without resetting SP then basically all of the boosters and items purchased prior to the AUR refund would have been free. I seriously don't see CCP doing that. This may end up being the "catastrophic event" they were alluding to as being the only reason they would reset SP.

The have to refund AUR, EULA states game is in beta, therefore a refund must be granted.

The have to refund AUR, EULA states game is in beta, therefore a refund must be granted.

I predict a SP reset if the AUR refund happens. CCP is not gonna let you hoard up all those SP and give you an AUR reset. they are gonna compel you to buy passive boosters.

The only thing I will be glad about is that the game will finally be live in May!

Woooooohoooooooooo!

yeah, that refund clause in the closed beta merc packs has been screenshotted by several people, i see no easy solution here

Yes, the terms appear to bind them legally to refunding the AUR. However, if we push for this, then the community should also be prepared to accept any potential consequences such as an SP and asset reset, both of which are completely possible and fair for CCP to do. I'm not saying that would happen for sure, but it is completely possible.

The game is already live. Do you mean launched? Or out of beta?

Maybe I've missed something, but I don't think they've said that May 6th/14th is the end of beta, have they?

I think that is a reall slippery slope. I would not look forward to another SP wipe.

The solution would be giving an option to consumers to keep what you have and no SP/AUR reset or reset both SP and Aurum and you start over.

Either way when you log in you have to a check a box that agrees to the new terms and relinguishes there liability.

Every one gets a nice bonus from ccp and the issue goes away.

Not sure there is an answer everyone will like.

no sp wipe but a refund of aur is the best solution and only good one.

Its when no one says "Its a beta" when **** hits the fan! CCP has given it a title "Uprising". Anything with a title is either a new build or an expansion.

Yes, the terms appear to bind them legally to refunding the AUR. However, if we push for this, then the community should also be prepared to accept any potential consequences such as an SP and asset reset, both of which are completely possible and fair for CCP to do. I'm not saying that would happen for sure, but it is completely possible.

I would just like to mention that I personally don't care about getting any of my aurum or items back. If it actually comes to it, I don't really care if people get their stuff refunded without giving anything up and it's all essentially free. As long as my character/SP/assets stays as it currently is then my vote goes to doing whatever CCP wants.

Whatever the outcome becomes it will no doubt be exciting

I would just like to mention that I personally don't care about getting any of my aurum or items back. If it actually comes to it, I don't really care if people get their stuff refunded without giving anything up and it's all essentially free. As long as my character/SP/assets stays as it currently is then my vote goes to doing whatever CCP wants.

Nowhere says that the two must go hand-in-hand. Sure, it's how it's been happening in the past, but they aren't tied to each other.

They have to refund AUR, EULA states game is in beta, therefore a refund must be granted.

Iam glad you feel that way.

However, this a legal matter and not one of personal opinion. If CCP goes against back on their word. Then I should never follow another rule created by CCP.

Why should I follow them, when the people who created them can't be bothered to follow them.

Especially when this one rule is about money

I think that is a reall slippery slope. I would not look forward to another SP wipe.

The solution would be giving an option to consumers to keep what you have and no SP/AUR reset or reset both SP and Aurum and you start over.

Either way when you log in you have to a check a box that agrees to the new terms and relinguishes there liability.

Every one gets a nice bonus from ccp and the issue goes away.

Not sure there is an answer everyone will like.

I agree. CCP did say there will be no more SP resets for certain and everyone seems to agree to that. The only thing that left on the table to discuss as a possibility is a possible SP reallocation (reimbursement of SP). Not sure about the assets though.

This is definitely what I heard. Or else I wouldn't have wasted a single moment reaching cap in this game every week.

The solution would be giving an option to consumers to keep what you have and no SP/AUR reset or reset both SP and Aurum and you start over.

Either way when you log in you have to a check a box that agrees to the new terms and relinguishes there liability.

Every one gets a nice bonus from ccp and the issue goes away.

Not sure there is an answer everyone will like.

In my opinion there wont be any refunds. Since it got in open beta they said that there will not be any more resets. No SP resets, no AUR resets and no asset resets. And this is the way like it should be i really dont want to start from scratch so i save some AUR spent wrong.

I agree, and I think most people agree. However, CCP is on record as saying that even though they didn't/don't plan to do an SP reset, they have reserved the right to in the case of some catastrophic event. I'd consider a bunch of players legally demanding their aurum back (which effects SP) as potentially "catastrophic". I don't want them to reset SP (or a refund), but I wouldn't be surprised if it did happen because of this.

They had a statement saying there would not be any resets of any kind, till release, unless something catastrophic happened.
~In which case it would ONLY be a full SP refund, to be reallocated into newly designed skill trees.

Nothing about wiping Aur, assets, ISK, SP , or refunding AUR, or refunding aur (while wiping SP, ISK, assets, etc).

I think that is a reall slippery slope. I would not look forward to another SP wipe.

The solution would be giving an option to consumers to keep what you have and no SP/AUR reset or reset both SP and Aurum and you start over.

Either way when you log in you have to a check a box that agrees to the new terms and relinguishes there liability.

Every one gets a nice bonus from ccp and the issue goes away.

Not sure there is an answer everyone will like.

Here is the direct quote:

"We currently have no plans to reset your characters' skill points to a state where they are equivalent to a newly created character, barring something catastrophic."

So yes, if something catastrophic happens, they can completely wipe SP.

for everytime i die due to a bug, dont you think im entitled to have my aurum refunded without an sp reset?
.

Reset =/= wipe. In any other MMO type games you refer to respecing as resetting your skill points. Not 'deleting' them from use ever again. If we have to play the parse every word CCP ever says, then there's no point listening to them at all. Then words clarifying words will come months later and themselves be ambiguous. How can anyone trust that to make appropriate decisions with their time or money?

Ughh we're not talking simple SP reset here, this is a complete character wipe. Assets, SP, Scores, even your name, it all gets deleted, that's how it's been done so far. You'de only get to keep event items and Aur.

Reset =/= wipe. In any other MMO type games you refer to respecing as resetting your skill points. Not 'deleting' them from use ever again. If we have to play the parse every word CCP ever says, then there's no point listening to them at all. Then words clarifying words will come months later and themselves be ambiguous. How can anyone trust that to make appropriate decisions with their time or money?

For the love of Kittens lock it already

There is so much mis-information here its stupid

I realize the difference. However, they have made the distinction between a wipe/reset and a reallocation. This quote was a direct response to people asking if they were going to lose their SP like in previous beta build resets when the game launched.

If their term reset means to wipe all player data including name isk and assets, then it was used incorrectly in conjunction with the sentence "to reset your characters' skill points to a state where they are equivalent to a newly created character".

So on which account were they wrong?

This quote says:

"We currently have no plans to reset your characters' skill points to a state where they are equivalent to a newly created character, barring something catastrophic."

Resetting my character's SP (retains the character),
to a state equal to having created a new character (No longer having any SP allocated into any skill),
will only happen if there is something catastrophic.

See? Assets are are not part of this, nor BPO, Nor ISK, Nor character name.
The only grey area (which would be scummy at best) is what happens to the SP that is taken out of your skills.

The ONLY thing stated here for logical certainty is that they MAY have to remove SP from skills

heh, I really don't need my 20 bucks worth of aurum back at the expense of 4 months of SP grinding and my cheap BPO suits.


If they do reset SP, I hope to god they decide to change the SP payout system to 100% pasive like eve. That way I can just log on for 5 minutes once a day to assign my skill cue for the next few months while I allow the preparation H to have it's full effect.

pure FPS players who have never played eve would throw a hissy fit

BAD IDEA

A'hh I missed that.

Still the refund part came before CCP decided to this would be that last SP reset. So technically, if people want to take CCP to court over this then the "refund" part would override the part about "no Sp reset" .

People want to have their cake, eat it, and then get their money back anyway.

Here's the thing. Lets say CCP has the flexibility (due to miscommunication, misleading, or ambiguous quotes) to do literally whatever they want. And practically I'm sure they do.

Why should they choose NOT to reset anything?

Lets be honest. Who believes that the core player-base of this game is not already playing it? Who really thinks that re-branding same game from "beta" to "release" will magically cause an massive influx of curious new players? Anyone interested by now, or by that point will have already downloaded, tested the game, and determined it's merits and potential.

Therefore who would be most enraged by doing a hard-reset of characters, SP (non-reallocative), ISK, assets, BPOs, etc?
The core player-base, which at that point will virtually be everyone who will be playing it.


Seems like a bad idea from a company PR standpoint to screw people like that: People who are their primary source of income, support, and advertising.

Who would such a measure appease? The illusive and perhaps nonexistent few new, causal CoD come-overs who flow in and out of games like a passing cool breeze. But it won't run a wind farm.

CCP really needs to step up their game in terms of communicating. I'm not taking about with us but with themselves (as in the GMs and Devs).

But overall, CCP does have a ton of petitions to handle. Consider this:

Eve Online (Tranquility Server - London): 500,000 Subscribers
Eve Online (Serenity Server - China): about 100,000 or less subscribers
Dust 514 (Tranquility Server): About 400,000 to 500,000 free accounts (assuming every player has created 3 alt characters)

That's well over a million players to handle petitions from.

Well if a$$holes keep pushing for aur refund and we get it, that means sp wipe too, and reset of assets.
Which means everyone (including myself) who purchased all bpo items before the price increase will lose those too. So those of us who created militia fits for cheap to fall back on....will be forced to spend $30 on one militia fit.
Carry on trying to F uck things up people, you may just manage it.
If the above happens, as much as I love dust, I'm done!

We are not in Commercial Release. Any statements of such from a GM was inaccurate.

Wrong.

Anyone who owns a playstation is able to download this game.

CCP are taking money for products in this game, that is commerce.

This is a commercial release.

Wrong.

Anyone who owns a playstation is able to download this game.

CCP are taking money for products in this game, that is commerce.

This is a commercial release.

I pretty much agree with this statement. Commercial release is a legal term, and I don't think CCP gets to define what it means to suit their desires. I'm no lawyer though.


I've seen this in other betas as well, namely MWO. They get around this issue by referring, not to commercial release, but to "launch" a made up term that the they can define however they want.

No no, ICECREAM is right on this one. Commercial Release just means it's available to everyone, technically that would just make it an open beta, but the fact that they're charging for items brings it back to commercial release. Or is everyone who buys Aurum items at this point simply making donations? I don't think so CCP.

So yeah, it's an incomplete game, but it's an incomplete game that they're selling

I feel pretty bad for Eterne tbh.

His company is making him say this stuff, even though its wrong, and that reflects badly on him.

Reminds me of working retail.

I know those aren't links to precedent cases before the Supreme Court but it's interesting that the mechwarrior thread is very similar to what is being said here but I still haven't seen proof of any of it. Got tired of googling it after like 5 minutes.

If anyone can link some proof of any of this that would be very helpful. Especially any links that confirm companies are required by law to call the game an "open BETA" or "Commercial Release" because some criteria has been met. Since this is a download-only game there's no manufacturer to ship it to for production, so it seems the commercial release is whenever the hell CCP feels it calling it that.

Until proof shows up there's this crap. These aren't intended to be conclusive, but it does seem apparent the BETA vs Release is based solely on the what the company thinks the state of the game is, not any other factors.

http://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/56334-clarification-closed-beta-vs-open-beta-vs-releaselaunch-and-status/

http://mmohuts.com/editorials/what-does-closed-beta-mean

I know those aren't links to precedent cases before the Supreme Court but it's interesting that the mechwarrior thread is very similar to what is being said here but I still haven't seen proof of any of it. Got tired of googling it after like 5 minutes.

Remember what I said about stabbing people with a knife? Whether a court/CCP calls this a commercial release or not has nothing to do whether it actually is one. CCP can deny it, but they are selling an incomplete product.

DUST is free, you bought AUR.

I bought nothing

You cannot force the people who bought merc packs to take a reset of SP if they want to get what you promised them. If you reset anyone you need to reset everyone, no option BS.

Yes they can.

Yes they can.

How would that be fair? Here is what we promised you but you must give me something else?

I'm fine with it as long as everyone gets reset to square one not just punishing those that actually support the game.

Yeah, they CAN, but if they do they can also expect a whole lot of people (myself included) to delete the game.

No one is forced to do something that they don't want to? That sounds pretty fair to me.

I would be forced to take a reset to get my promised Aurum instead of keeping my sp. So how is that not forcing me to do something?

There should be two options as far as the refund

1. Give up a portion of your SP to refund your merc pack with the 30 day booster
2. Get the merc pack back without a booster. Maybe throw in a three day booster as a gift.

So for those into the whole "commercial release" debate, is Playstation Home in commercial release?

/rolls in asbestos and exits stage left

EDIT:


^This actually seems pretty reasonable.

Its when no one says "Its a beta" when **** hits the fan! CCP has given it a title "Uprising". Anything with a title is either a new build or an expansion.

Are they selling you stuff?

Playstation Home? Oh yes, not me personally but there are people who've spent thousands of dollars on micro transactions there. For the record (last I bothered to check) Sony officially says it's in open beta.

Are they selling you stuff?

Does it matter? No. Everyone seems to think the "Commercial Release" is related to payment. I've said it 1,000 times and I'm going to keep saying it until everybody stops being stupid. "Commercial Release" is a stage of development that indicates the software does not need any additional testing and no additional code is to be added. It is when the developer says it is. They can charge for whatever the hell they want so long as they make it clear what you are buying. Which they did. So it's BETA until they say otherwise.

I guess if you want to see it that way. And yes, people do know what they're getting themselves into, still suckers unless they're buying boosters.

I'm just curious as to what you mean by "see it that way"?

I'm not being a jerk, I just don't understand what everyone is so confused about.

It depends on what you see as CR, I see it the instant they start selling a product, So to me this is CR.

Ok. But that's not what it means, so I guess that's the issue. And they sold AUR. No one made you use it now. Not like the stuff expires. Call it Commercial Release all you want, so long as you understand that it isn't that at all I guess.

They can refund JUST AUR GUYS

SP can stay intact

Quoting again for true, and can 99% of this thread stop being stupid. You will get your AUR refund and stop crying

SP cannot stay intact because some of that sp was earned at an accelerated rate using booster's included or bought with the aurum included with the merc pack. why is this concept so difficult for some people?

SP cannot stay intact because some of that sp was earned at an accelerated rate using booster's included or bought with the aurum included with the merc pack. why is this concept so difficult for some people?

Commercial release for sofware simply means it's available to everyone for purchase instead of only an exclusive group of people having access to it

So now that argument can be put to bed and people can stop sounding stupid. It says BETA at the top, it's a BETA. Nothing makes it anything else until the company says so. Simple concept, really. It is what CCP says it is. There is no room for debate or misunderstanding. It has nothing to do with them selling AUR or not. It has nothing to do with who has access to it. These are terms used by software developers to communicate where they feel the game is in the development cycle.

They've been accepting money for it since the beginning of closed BETA, right? So I'm guessing everyone thinks it never was a BETA and just went straight to commercial release?

CCP can call it whatever they want, it doesn't change what it is.

Ok, we're done. I was debating this with you because I was bored and it was what I thought a simple concept. I'm still bored and its still simple but this isn't any fun any more.

You have addressed exactly none of the points I've made. If you want to debate someone it is good practice to listen to what they say and respond to them. Ignoring them completely and just saying "everything is what I think it is because I said so" doesn't get anybody anywhere.

And also that phrase I quoted up there just plain makes me sad.

Sorry you didn't support CCP earlier and now want everyone who did to pay. You mad I have BPO's and an extra Million SP also?

i dont give a crap having my AUR back. i'm not that cheap of a player to try and screw those over.

A bad line in a product description doesnt mean you HAVE to try and use it. To me, AUR has to be refund when the progress you made using it is ERASED. That's it.

And i dont want to see anything erased. that's for sure.

I bought my first of 3 merc pacs when they only gave out 4000 aurum. Try again skippy

This thread is still going? Man I have to give it to the community, you guys take the ball and run with it.....

That 4,000 AURUM was actually worth the same as the 40,000 AURUM is now...

Besides, as I've said earlier in this thread; CCP should give people the option to reset everything and get back their AURUM and BPCs.

Though I can't personally figure out why anyone would want to go back to 500k SP and grind all the way back up while the rest of us are going to be running around with millions of SP and lots of officer loot.

Let me make this simple for you.

Take what we have now and put it on a disc, include an access code for a "free" merc pack, then send it to Gamestop and have them charge 20 for the game. You're going to tell me that that wasn't a commercial release? What difference does it make if people paid for Dust or the merc pack? People are still spending money on this.

It doesn't even matter...

Could someone fill me in about this? I'm kind of lost in what we are losing in the next build that is causing this problem?

We're not losing anything, don't worry. If you're not already outraged about it best not to get involved. Although this discussion actually seems to be about whether or not the game is still in open BETA or if it is now in the Commercial Release stage of development.

We are not in Commercial Release. Any statements of such from a GM was inaccurate.

I'm afraid I can't comment on any plans for an AUR refund at the present moment. I will look into getting a more definitive answer for you guys.