DUST Search - GAME DESTROYING: Separating Players by Controller Type Is Completely Unacceptable

Volgair wrote:

Bald Crusader Two wrote:

Volgair wrote:

Christ... Again with this argument. I have been waiting for this game since 2008. Personally i find this games crushing lack of content and options a more pressing matter then segregation of its small player base, based on peripheral.

Lets face it you look at the top 100 players off of the boards and ask them what their preferred control scheme is i imagine most will say DS3, lets say 60, about 20 will say KB/M exclusively, the remanding 20 will say a combination of the two.

That's a good mix for a console game. Especially one with a PC counter part. What i do not understand is this communities gross inadequacy issues that manifest when ever this subject is rears its ugly head...

Well the fact that CCP are the ones running with this tells us they are still second guessing on fundamentals, or never resolved them in the first place.

As you have a more then valid opinion that there are other more pressing issues it just convinces me more that there is a broader malaise that permeates this community based on the beta they see before them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNhPig8inEY skip to 1:06:30 that's where the video related to DUST begins. About 10 minutes after that point they get to a working version of the game with CCP's in-house chrome engine. While admittedly the graphics are dated and clumsy the potential for unique and dynamic game play far exceeds what we have now.

It pisses me off to no end that we cant even move past simple things like the differences in preferred control scheme when the game doesn't even offer things that were shown to be working, in a different iteration 4 years ago. Perhaps my priorities are skewed. Perhaps it's, that I feel the difference in potential for both DS3 and KB/M are not some great impassable chasm that far to many people assume it is. I don't know, for any one to assume they do wreaks of hubris.

What i will say, and this is 100% opinion, is that if CCP does proceed with the segregation. They are playing into the desires of the lowest common denominator and will have lost a good portion of my respect, for their work.

EDIT; Sorry Bald, this has less to do with your comment and more to do with me simply having more to say.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 1 post(s)
Berserker007 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 211	Posted - 2013.03.02 19:33:00 - [181] - Quote Essentially, CCP u shouldnt of even added kbm into the mix. That concept alone has been more of a curse, plus it allows certain classes to be used beyond the abilities a controller allows.
Technical-Support Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 20	Posted - 2013.03.02 19:56:00 - [182] - Quote https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=18530 (The original KB+M thread)
Icy Tiger Universal Allies Inc. 1033	Posted - 2013.03.02 20:02:00 - [183] - Quote The dark cloud wrote: my advice: dont sepperate the community, ditch KB/M support and every 1 is sitting in the same boat. Simple as that and i dont give a damn what kain spero wants. Dust is at the moment the only game that offers KB/M and if you have a clue about PC gaming then you know that controller users dont really have a chance against KB/M. Another thing is when you ditch this silly "feature" the devs have more time to take care of more important aspects of the game. The only thing that i see again here is that the imperfects defending again a advantage against regular players. We saw what happend last time with the TAC AR or do i have to remember who offered the current soloution to balance them out? Nice education system in your country lol.
Panther Alpha Blueberries United 68	Posted - 2013.03.02 20:06:00 - [184] - Quote Technical-Support wrote: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=18530 (The original KB+M thread) And that is spot on. Is not so much about the KB/M, but the experience that PC gamer's have in shooter games. CCP have the opportunity to get Pro's that will never play in a console, to think : Hmmm.... KB/M option ?.. I give it a try. That is unique ..... and very rare.
Vrain Matari ZionTCD Legacy Rising 419	Posted - 2013.03.02 20:19:00 - [185] - Quote CCP Cmdr Wang wrote: Ok, it's time to clear up some misconceptions. Despite the half quote by the OP which lead to the conclusion that this is to segregate the community by controller input types (which is not case), there are a lot of good feedback, and suggestions about this topic and this is exactly what we want to hear from you, our player community. What we want to offer is a choice for players who want the option to play against other players using the same input device and not to force anyone into it, which doesn't make much sense as many others have pointed out. If this is implemented into the Matchmaking system it will be done in a way that will not force a segregation of players who use different control inputs. And if this is implemented we will still allow mixed control input matches. To reiterate, this is about giving more choices to our players and not taking it away from you. One more thing I would like to add is that Matchmaking will only affect high sec public matches and will not affect null sec matches. We will continue to fine tune the controller sensitivity levels and work on balancing the game play. Thank you for the feedback, Commander. Just a couple of points: I feel like i know CCP well enough to know that you peeps would never force a choice like this on the playerbase. My concerns have more to do with peeps naturally risk-adverse behavior when something of value is at stake. In EVE the thing of value is time invested. In DUST the thing of value will be ego, reputation, self-image. In EVE this manifests as entire careers spent in hisec missionrunning, with little to no contact with greater New Eden or the rest of the playerbase. In DUST, this will manifest as avoiding the tougher competition. Specific to our case, it will mean peeps who let themselves get into a 'controller only' hisec pub rut. And even more awful, a 'controller only hisec PvEdrone missions' rut, but that's another topic. Your good intentions are a double-edged sword. The freedom to choose input method for new players(hisec pubs only) becomes an additional barrier to entry later when a player contemplates making the step up to losec/nullsec. I imagine a thought process like this: "Ok, i want to try out the nullsec game, it sounds really cool. But from what I've heard, I'll be facing veteran protogods out there in every match. Which means I'm going to have to run some good gear to compete - that's going to be pretty expensive. And a lot of those protogods have ISK coming out their wazoos. And I'll be facing kb/m players, which I've been able to avoid up till now." I hate thinking like this, it make me feel like a friggin' nanny or somebody's grammy. However, i think the thought process and risk-avoidance behavior are going to be a real dynamic that affect our playerbase. That's really my only concern about the whole thing, personally I love the idea of player freedom to choose. One request, though. If you do give us the ability to choose input type, please make sure I have the option to face nothing but kb/m players with my DS3. P.S. Looking at the calls in this thread to eliminate one of the input methods - don't do it. It makes DUST stand out from the crowd, sends a message that players are free to chose for themselves, it has real value in how DUST is perceived bt public and press. The other message it sends is that 'You can bring whatever the kitten you want to the gunfight, and live or die by your decisions - Welcome to New Eden, merc.'
Fornacis Fairchild Kat 5 Kaos 26	Posted - 2013.03.02 20:35:00 - [186] - Quote This is total BS, I use both. I use controller for all vehicles, and KB/M for infantry + gamepad.
Buzzin Fr0g KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 92	Posted - 2013.03.02 20:40:00 - [187] - Quote Winscar Shinobi wrote: Panther Alpha wrote: Rustonius wrote: Awesome. No worries about splitting community. The kbm people will stop using it when they have to go up against other kbm people. They only like it now because of the advantage over most others. Only kbm people can strafe exactly right to left while sprinting, something almost impossible on the controller, and even worse its nearly impossible to strafe and jump and keep cross hair on target. On gamepad you can't press x to jump without releasing camera control unless you use another finger but then you aren't firing gun with r1 which is also same hand. In reality, I think kbm should be removed, the game client doesn't seem to be able to handle the movement updates available with kbm. Or your server side can't seem to update the client fast enough, making the user somewhat invincible, since you're always shooting empty air even though your client shows the guy in middle of your cross hair, but server obviously knows the guy wasn't their, since it didn't register hit/damage on opponent. I'm guessing that's more feasible then increasing the frequency of updates sent to clients. KB/M appeals to PC gamer's, that other hows will never play a shooter in a console. That is something unique, that CCP will be a fool to ignore, just because some "Kids" can only use a DS3. You do realize dust has KB/M because some "kids" can only use KB/M. FPS started on PC, but have migrated to consoles and exploded. I'd wager that the average age of an FPS gamer on PC is older than on consoles because the former's "golden age" precedes the latter's. I think that's why he said it.
Morathi III Rebelles A Quebec 64	Posted - 2013.03.02 20:52:00 - [188] - Quote Storm in a water glass this thread is only that
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens 171	Posted - 2013.03.02 21:13:00 - [189] - Quote Again... The max turn rate on the mouse is the same as the max turn rate on the DS3. DS3 controller gives me a finer gradient of control over movement and I aim fairly well with it as well. KB/M I give up that fine movement control to get better aim control, well for me anyway. The mouse also has a bit of a disadvantage as when using one, I have to pick up and readjust the mouse as I'm making wide sweeps which causes my aim to pause for that fraction of a second.
Telcontar Dunedain Imperfects Negative-Feedback 349	Posted - 2013.03.02 21:39:00 - [190] - Quote CCP Cmdr Wang wrote: Ok, it's time to clear up some misconceptions. Despite the half quote by the OP which lead to the conclusion that this is to segregate the community by controller input types (which is not case), there are a lot of good feedback, and suggestions about this topic and this is exactly what we want to hear from you, our player community ..... One more thing I would like to add is that Matchmaking will only affect high sec public matches and will not affect null sec matches. We will continue to fine tune the controller sensitivity levels and work on balancing the game play. In what way is that a half quote? Those are two separate work items - """[FEEDBACK] Controller and Kb/m gap - balancing the two control schemes. Update: The dev team will compare turn speeds with kbm and controllers for both infantry and vehicles to see if there are inconsistancies. We are also planning to introduce Matchmaking improvemtns that will take controller input into account.""" That part sounds fine. We, pretty uniformly I might add, took serious exception to the second item only. Thus the "half quote"(????). This is a terrible idea, that will INDEED segregate the community, and it's disheartening that you are continuing down this path despite the negative reaction. FOCUS on getting experienced players doing SOMETHING besides stomping pubs and PERHAPS some of these fake m/k controller balance concerns will be mitigated?????

Unrussled Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 0	Posted - 2013.03.02 21:50:00 - [191] - Quote I feel very unwelcomed as a PC gamer now. The mouse and keyboard have been the tools for shooters since their invention. I played the original Castle Wolfenstein from the early 1980's. Let's face it, the controller thing for consoles has always been about money. Look at the price of a dual shock and look at the price of a used mouse and KB. The only reason I tried this is is because of the mouse KB ability, but consoles have always been about locking down and controlling their players and bleeding them dry on extras. They will tell you what you can use and what you can't, how much it costs etc. The other issue are gamers today, especially the shooter players who are creepily serious about their stats and KD ratios. Kids/manchildren today take that stuff way too seriously. Players act like their KD ratio has an effect on what college they get into and they act like it will come up in a job interview. I play to win like anyone else, but you guys need to get a grip. Oh well, the PC is going to be the winner this round of console wars anyway, so I don't even know why I'm here.
DJINN leukoplast Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 307	Posted - 2013.03.02 21:53:00 - [192] - Quote Well even if it's going to be a choice, it still can segregate the community. I know as a DS3 user, I would likely choose to avoid kbm users. I have enough trouble dealing with this games poor aiming mechanics, let alone having to go up against players who have the ability to use a mouse with perfect precision aiming. I think this should be tried for a little while, just to see what it's like and to see if the massive freak-out reaction from people in this thread is worth any merit. Although based on the popularity of this thread, it would seem more people use kbm than we suspect. Would be funny though if when I go into a DS3 only match, the competition is severely reduced
Tiel Syysch Imperfects Negative-Feedback 648	Posted - 2013.03.02 22:06:00 - [193] - Quote DJINN leukoplast wrote: Well even if it's going to be a choice, it still can segregate the community. I know as a DS3 user, I would likely choose to avoid kbm users. I have enough trouble dealing with this games poor aiming mechanics, let alone having to go up against players who have the ability to use a mouse with perfect precision aiming. I think this should be tried for a little while, just to see what it's like and to see if the massive freak-out reaction from people in this thread is worth any merit. Although based on the popularity of this thread, it would seem more people use kbm than we suspect. Would be funny though if when I go into a DS3 only match, the competition is severely reduced Many of us use DS3, and are simply advocating on behalf of this being a terrible idea for CCP to be implementing. Also, many of the very top tier players use DS3, so this is just stupidity if they're concerned about the "balance" issues surrounding input method.
King Kobrah SyNergy Gaming 38	Posted - 2013.03.02 22:09:00 - [194] - Quote I use a controller for movement and a mouse for aiming at the same time on and off during games, how will you place someone like me in a matchmaking system based on controller/keyboard? it's a horrible idea anyways, instead of separating us, how about you fix the broken KB+M mechanics that let heavies strafe as fast as an assault and tanks that move abnormally fast?
Telcontar Dunedain Imperfects Negative-Feedback 349	Posted - 2013.03.02 22:14:00 - [195] - Quote King Kobrah wrote: I use a controller for movement and a mouse for aiming at the same time on and off during games, how will you place someone like me in a matchmaking system based on controller/keyboard? it's a horrible idea anyways, instead of separating us, how about you fix the broken KB+M mechanics that let heavies strafe as fast as an assault and tanks that move abnormally fast? QFT
BlG MAMA PLAYSTATION4 2	Posted - 2013.03.02 22:27:00 - [196] - Quote The reason why some of you dont want to have an filter for controller or kb/m only is because you are insecure and afraid of the other kb/m users that are better than you. You want to have controller people on the field so you can be able to shoot and kill someone since you cant kill the other kb/m freaks that are better than you. If you think you are such pros you should be glad you have competition .
Telcontar Dunedain Imperfects Negative-Feedback 349	Posted - 2013.03.02 22:33:00 - [197] - Quote BlG MAMA wrote: The reason why some of you dont want to have an filter for controller or kb/m only is because you are insecure and afraid of the other kb/m users that are better than you. You want to have controller people on the field so you can be able to shoot and kill someone since you cant kill the other kb/m freaks that are better than you. If you think you are such pros you should be glad you have competition . I think you should play the game for a while and getbetterGäó
Panther Alpha Blueberries United 68	Posted - 2013.03.02 22:43:00 - [198] - Quote BlG MAMA wrote: The reason why some of you dont want to have an filter for controller or kb/m only is because you are insecure and afraid of the other kb/m users that are better than you. You want to have controller people on the field so you can be able to shoot and kill someone since you cant kill the other kb/m freaks that are better than you. If you think you are such pros you should be glad you have competition . ROFL...I been playing FPS in PC's for years, and i never stopped playing because other people are better than me. In fact i welcome the challenge , so i have to push my self harder. But we talking about "dividing the community"... so all that is very irrelevant.
Indianna Pwns The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar 9	Posted - 2013.03.02 23:07:00 - [199] - Quote Here's my two Cents following my experience with both control methods. DS3 - Aiming is 'twitchy' at higher sensitivities, I currently play on a lower sensitivity to help my ADS accuracy however I am left left with a slow turning speed which I find hinders my maneuverability. M/KB - I plugged my MK/B in recently to see how the game plays (albeit uncomfortably as I don't have my PS3 setup at a desk). I have a Razer Abbysus mouse and polling rate seems to affect the sensitivity dramatically. At 1000hz with 1800 dpi the sensitivity is very slow (almost unpalyable). However at 125 hz 1800 dpi I can instantly turn a heavy 180 degrees with a flick off my wrist. Also making micro adjustments to my aim is much easier with the mouse. My main issue with the current difference between the two contol methods is how much more quickly I can turn with the kb/m. Its deeply unfair for me to flank behind a heavy only for him to be able to instantly whip around and start shooting me in the face. Whilst i dont think we need to split kb/m and ds3 players, i do think the aiming on the DS3 needs to be improved and the ability for m/kb users to turn on a dime needs to be sorted out. This isn't me having a moan I'm just voicing my opinion based on my observations.
Bald Crusader Two Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2013.03.02 23:32:00 - [200] - Quote Noc Tempre wrote: CCP Cmdr Wang wrote: Ok, it's time to clear up some misconceptions. Despite the half quote by the OP which lead to the conclusion that this is to segregate the community by controller input types (which is not case), there are a lot of good feedback, and suggestions about this topic and this is exactly what we want to hear from you, our player community. What we want to offer is a choice for players who want the option to play against other players using the same input device and not to force anyone into it, which doesn't make much sense as many others have pointed out. If this is implemented into the Matchmaking system it will be done in a way that will not force a segregation of players who use different control inputs. And if this is implemented we will still allow mixed control input matches. To reinterate, this is about giving more choices to our players and not taking it away from you. One more thing I would like to add is that Matchmaking will only affect high sec public matches and will not affect null sec matches. We will continue to fine tune the controller sensitivity levels and work on balancing the game play. Fiddle all you want with the high sec mechanics. It won't stop the playerbase slide; honestly it's a waste of time. Someone in the office is playing the blame game and spun the wheel to controllers vs KBM. They couldn't be more wrong. The game isn't catching on because you are under-delivering on the persistent universe promise. You are making a **** poor lobby shooter and you should stop, because no one here came for that and other companies do it a lot better. I'm sorry I'm being so abrasive, but you seem to not understand the harm you are doing to your own community a majority of the time lately. It wasn't always this way, I hope that whatever changed for the worse can be rectified soon. Bravo basically. If this was an episode of "Seconds from Disaster" we're not quite in a tail spin, but critical errors are stacking up.

IRuby Heart DIOS EX. 373	Posted - 2013.03.02 23:36:00 - [201] - Quote 200th reply, we did it people, we did it.
Indianna Pwns The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar 9	Posted - 2013.03.02 23:39:00 - [202] - Quote IRuby Heart wrote: 200th reply, we did it people, we did it. Your #201 actually
Panther Alpha Blueberries United 68	Posted - 2013.03.02 23:41:00 - [203] - Quote IRuby Heart wrote: 200th reply, we did it people, we did it. About time... I was running out of things to say.
Krightun Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 12	Posted - 2013.03.02 23:51:00 - [204] - Quote I play with controller and kb/m in the same battle, is this going to be a problem? will I HAVE to play in mixed (only)?
Bald Crusader Two Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2013.03.03 00:21:00 - [205] - Quote Krightun wrote: I play with controller and kb/m in the same battle, is this going to be a problem? will I HAVE to play in mixed (only)? It seems kind of unclear. Are we going to witness the birth of Corporations based on doctrines of controller type? That would be somewhat insane.
Volgair Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 201	Posted - 2013.03.03 00:22:00 - [206] - Quote Christ... Again with this argument. I have been waiting for this game since 2008. Personally i find this games crushing lack of content and options a more pressing matter then segregation of its small player base based on peripheral. Lets face it you look at the top 100 players off of the boards and ask them what there preferred control scheme is i imagine most will 60 say DS3 about 20 will say KB/M exclusively the remanding 20 will say a combination of the two. That's a good mix for a console game. Especially one with a PC counter part. What i do not understand is this communities gross inadequacy issues that manifest when ever this subject is rears its ugly head...

ChribbaX Otherworld Enterprises Dust Control Otherworld Empire Productions 140	Posted - 2013.03.03 00:26:00 - [207] - Quote I tbh use both, if I need to do market stuff or refit etc I use the controlled while in a match while playing the match with kbm. Separating is just silly. I still want to play against either setup, I mean that's just whatever someone prefers there's (imo) not any combo better than the other - it's what you're used to. /c

Bald Crusader Two Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2013.03.03 00:29:00 - [208] - Quote Volgair wrote: Christ... Again with this argument. I have been waiting for this game since 2008. Personally i find this games crushing lack of content and options a more pressing matter then segregation of its small player base, based on peripheral. Lets face it you look at the top 100 players off of the boards and ask them what their preferred control scheme is i imagine most will say DS3, lets say 60, about 20 will say KB/M exclusively, the remanding 20 will say a combination of the two. That's a good mix for a console game. Especially one with a PC counter part. What i do not understand is this communities gross inadequacy issues that manifest when ever this subject is rears its ugly head... Well the fact that CCP are the ones running with this tells us they are still second guessing on fundamentals, or never resolved them in the first place. As you have a more then valid opinion that there are other more pressing issues it just convinces me more that there is a broader malaise that permeates this community based on the beta they see before them.
Volgair Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 201	Posted - 2013.03.03 01:06:00 - [209] - Quote Bald Crusader Two wrote: Volgair wrote: Christ... Again with this argument. I have been waiting for this game since 2008. Personally i find this games crushing lack of content and options a more pressing matter then segregation of its small player base, based on peripheral. Lets face it you look at the top 100 players off of the boards and ask them what their preferred control scheme is i imagine most will say DS3, lets say 60, about 20 will say KB/M exclusively, the remanding 20 will say a combination of the two. That's a good mix for a console game. Especially one with a PC counter part. What i do not understand is this communities gross inadequacy issues that manifest when ever this subject is rears its ugly head... Well the fact that CCP are the ones running with this tells us they are still second guessing on fundamentals, or never resolved them in the first place. As you have a more then valid opinion that there are other more pressing issues it just convinces me more that there is a broader malaise that permeates this community based on the beta they see before them. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNhPig8inEY skip to 1:06:30 that's where the video related to DUST begins. About 10 minutes after that point they get to a working version of the game with CCP's in-house chrome engine. While admittedly the graphics are dated and clumsy the potential for unique and dynamic game play far exceeds what we have now. It pisses me off to no end that we cant even move past simple things like the differences in preferred control scheme when the game doesn't even offer things that were shown to be working, in a different iteration 4 years ago. Perhaps my priorities are skewed. Perhaps it's, that I feel the difference in potential for both DS3 and KB/M are not some great impassable chasm that far to many people assume it is. I don't know, for any one to assume they do wreaks of hubris. What i will say is that if CCP does proceed with the segregation, they are playing into the desires of the lowest common denominator and will have lost a good portion of my respect for their work.
Telcontar Dunedain Imperfects Negative-Feedback 349	Posted - 2013.03.03 04:21:00 - [210] - Quote Volgair wrote: Bald Crusader Two wrote: Volgair wrote: Christ... Again with this argument. I have been waiting for this game since 2008. Personally i find this games crushing lack of content and options a more pressing matter then segregation of its small player base, based on peripheral. Lets face it you look at the top 100 players off of the boards and ask them what their preferred control scheme is i imagine most will say DS3, lets say 60, about 20 will say KB/M exclusively, the remanding 20 will say a combination of the two. That's a good mix for a console game. Especially one with a PC counter part. What i do not understand is this communities gross inadequacy issues that manifest when ever this subject is rears its ugly head... Well the fact that CCP are the ones running with this tells us they are still second guessing on fundamentals, or never resolved them in the first place. As you have a more then valid opinion that there are other more pressing issues it just convinces me more that there is a broader malaise that permeates this community based on the beta they see before them. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNhPig8inEY skip to 1:06:30 that's where the video related to DUST begins. About 10 minutes after that point they get to a working version of the game with CCP's in-house chrome engine. While admittedly the graphics are dated and clumsy the potential for unique and dynamic game play far exceeds what we have now. It pisses me off to no end that we cant even move past simple things like the differences in preferred control scheme when the game doesn't even offer things that were shown to be working, in a different iteration 4 years ago. Perhaps my priorities are skewed. Perhaps it's, that I feel the difference in potential for both DS3 and KB/M are not some great impassable chasm that far to many people assume it is. I don't know, for any one to assume they do wreaks of hubris. What i will say, and this is 100% opinion, is that if CCP does proceed with the segregation. They are playing into the desires of the lowest common denominator and will have lost a good portion of my respect, for their work. EDIT; Sorry Bald, this has less to do with your comment and more to do with me simply having more to say. Actually I think what you said was directly relevant to why this m/k and controller split is so disheartening. As Bald said """Well the fact that CCP are the ones running with this tells us they are still second guessing on fundamentals, or never resolved them in the first place.""" Spot on. Reopening these old wounds at this stage points to CCP wanting to please people somewhat randomly and losing focus on implementing the actual game we all came here to play.



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