DUST Search - Serious imbalance with ISK and OBs

The Black Jackal wrote:

Tiel Syysch wrote:

Noc Tempre wrote:

Tiel Syysch wrote:

The Black Jackal wrote:

I'm not saying dont have the delay, but have no warning. As to the 'arbitrary' Point value.. is that any different from COD whereby getting a kill streak of a certain number entitles you to an airstrike? or to call in a hellcopter that will continue to get kilsl for you for a time?

Prepare to have your mind blown, but CoD kill streaks aren't instant effects.

The stealth bomber, the closest thing to an OB, has a significant delay and you can see it coming if you are paying attention.

Yeah, it's also VERY audible. All the airstrikes and stuff show up on the radar before they ever fly over, and the choppers and AC130s and stuff have to fly into the zone before they're within shooting range. There's significantly more of a warning time for CoD kill streaks than there is for the Dust OB.

You guys do realise there is a non-audible warning? The Large targetting lasers appear ~5 seconds before the strike so 'paying attention' can save you from an Orbital Strike.

Stealth Bombers, airstrikes yes, they aren't instant hit, but they aren't firing from space at super velocity. They are 'flying in' engine sounds. etc. You also 'see them' incoming on your radar because they are there to detect using said radar. DUST OBs don't come across space. I'm sure when they introduce Air-Strikes or something similar from EVE-side (if they do) they will show up on radar before the strike and make noise.

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Red Dot 24601-HA S.e.V.e.N. 36	Posted - 2013.02.13 23:00:00 - [61] - Quote The OBs are here to stay. CCP will leave the warbarge strikes for players that don't have eve side support. Eve compliments the game just as dust compliments eve but both can be played with out the other. I think when the squads go to 6 man squads they should rethink the wp requirements. I got an OB last night with a 2 man squad. As for the original complaint about losing gear to these free weapons...If you bring in a tank and lose it that is a part of war. If you think that because you have invested a lot of isk and sp into that HAV you should be indestructable you are wrong. I think the OB offers balance. It is a counter to the HAV that is going 30-0. Just a thought though, while that HAV sits on the red line not allowing anything to cross into the battlefield it is really hard to earn an OB. You will get no sympathy from me when your precious tank gets destroyed. No warnings other than than sound you already hear just a second before the strike hits. No damage reductions, they should be instant death to all inside the area of effect. OBs are not hard to earn by skilled players playing as a squad but randoms very rarely seem to get them. It is usually a squad from a corp that gets them in pub matches. Solutions? How about a module that increases your shield output for a brief time? Something that can take the hit and let you survive but barely. You here that great dubstep from the sky sound and you have seconds to activate it or you are dead. How about a monetary cost for calling in the strike? I am sure the ammo isn't cheap to generate. MAG had a cooldown between squad orders, platoon orders, and OIC orders but they were based on time not on how well the team was doing. This means even the redlined team has a chance of calling in strikes and breaking free. Seems like a better balance to me...
Kain Spero Imperfects Negative-Feedback 901	Posted - 2013.02.13 23:00:00 - [62] - Quote Noc Tempre wrote: Right now orbitals are free and can easily destroy everything but high level armor tanks. This is due to the combination of their high damage, huge radius, long duration, and short warning. Something needs to give, and I think a longer delay between use and landing would help. Because right now it's pointless to use anything above a sica, and that's counter-intuitive with the SP investment I have made. Personally I think it should be: Call-in 5 sec Warning 5 sec Hits That way they would take a lot more skill or teamwork to be used effectively, instead of free kills. Edit: it's in general because I want to get some preliminary opinions before posting a full suggestion in the feedback subforum. This is too much time. The only thing I can see is a slight tweak to the broadcast time. I've actually avoided OBs in a heavy suit though (more luck than anything else though). I could see maybe a module or a role of some kind potentially giving a warning when the OB menu is pulled up and an ordnance package is selected, but a base warning this long is a non-starter for me.
Rasputin La'Gar Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 28	Posted - 2013.02.13 23:00:00 - [63] - Quote Bojo The Mighty wrote: what kind of warning we talking about? A vortex and lightning storm occurring in the sky above, or that annoying woman saying in her bionic voice "Warning, Orbital Strike detected"....I prefer the first. "CESHER NOCANONS TO DEFEAT THE ENEMY TEAM"
Tiel Syysch Imperfects Negative-Feedback 633	Posted - 2013.02.13 23:02:00 - [64] - Quote Polish Hammer wrote: How long would this purposed warning be? And I don't know.....this seems to me that it would make Orbitals very easy to avoid, thus making them ineffective. The NPC war barge strikes shouldn't be all that effective anyway. They don't need to be. The weakest player-controlled OBs are devastating already and things are only going to get bigger beyond that. We need somewhere that starts small. I'd personally be fine with a +1 to 2 sec increase in the time between warning signal and first pulse. More than what we have now, it doesn't have to go all the way to the first variation of OBs we had, I forget how much longer that was than this.
James-5955 Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 151	Posted - 2013.02.13 23:03:00 - [65] - Quote Good, it's the only real threat a well fitted tank is going to have in pubs unless they get matched against a good organized corp that happens to have someone dedicated to AV in their squad. I know tanks are expensive but you should have enough isk to be able to afford to drop another only a minute later and dominate once again. The average pub match is full of people who are basically free kills, I recognize this and I don't have thousands of HP with a blaster turret. Most people I see who call in well fit tanks can roam around all match farming kills and not dying, so it's a relief when I have something like an OB that can at least get rid of it for a minute. Can't wait til I have more SP and can have proper AV equipment to deal with high SP tankers. Give it a small delay? Maybe, but lets not make it useless against tanks. Using an OB to take out a tank should be a viable option IMHO.
Morathi III Rebelles A Quebec 57	Posted - 2013.02.13 23:05:00 - [66] - Quote Noc Tempre wrote: Right now orbitals are free and can easily destroy everything but high level armor tanks. This is due to the combination of their high damage, huge radius, long duration, and short warning. Something needs to give, and I think a longer delay between use and landing would help. Because right now it's pointless to use anything above a sica, and that's counter-intuitive with the SP investment I have made. Personally I think it should be: Call-in 5 sec Warning 5 sec Hits That way they would take a lot more skill or teamwork to be used effectively, instead of free kills. Edit: it's in general because I want to get some preliminary opinions before posting a full suggestion in the feedback subforum. No, i love to take it quicqly on a imperfect squad, stop crying plz
The Black Jackal The Southern Legion 302	Posted - 2013.02.13 23:05:00 - [67] - Quote Tiel Syysch wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: Tiel Syysch wrote: The Black Jackal wrote: I'm not saying dont have the delay, but have no warning. As to the 'arbitrary' Point value.. is that any different from COD whereby getting a kill streak of a certain number entitles you to an airstrike? or to call in a hellcopter that will continue to get kilsl for you for a time? Prepare to have your mind blown, but CoD kill streaks aren't instant effects. The stealth bomber, the closest thing to an OB, has a significant delay and you can see it coming if you are paying attention. Yeah, it's also VERY audible. All the airstrikes and stuff show up on the radar before they ever fly over, and the choppers and AC130s and stuff have to fly into the zone before they're within shooting range. There's significantly more of a warning time for CoD kill streaks than there is for the Dust OB. You guys do realise there is a non-audible warning? The Large targetting lasers appear ~5 seconds before the strike so 'paying attention' can save you from an Orbital Strike. Stealth Bombers, airstrikes yes, they aren't instant hit, but they aren't firing from space at super velocity. They are 'flying in' engine sounds. etc. You also 'see them' incoming on your radar because they are there to detect using said radar. DUST OBs don't come across space. I'm sure when they introduce Air-Strikes or something similar from EVE-side (if they do) they will show up on radar before the strike and make noise.
BobThe843CakeMan BurgezzE.T.F 132	Posted - 2013.02.13 23:07:00 - [68] - Quote Scheneighnay McBob wrote: Orbitals shouldn't respect friendly fire- problem solved. A few days ago, by coordinating with bobthe843cakeman, I achieved superoverkill by calling a precision strike on a single sniper. It was necessary. Lol ur to kind i got all those points from blowing up 2 tanks tht could not shoot a heavy jumping in front of their faces charging a forge gun and even having to reload it. and then u got the rest from repping me from those god aweful snipers. he deserved it killing me like 2 times.
James-5955 Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 151	Posted - 2013.02.13 23:08:00 - [69] - Quote Baal Roo wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: Baal Roo wrote: So stop calling in 1M ISK gear in pub matches? 1M is advanced level gear. Maybe I don't want to be forced to run militia just to not go broke? Especially since I have a higher survival rate than the average. sounds like a personal problem. Seriously, why would you call in a 1M asset into a match that can only gain you 200k-300k ISK? I honestly don't understand your reasoning here. It's almost like you think you're playing a completed game, and that instant battles will be the heart of the gameplay for people with 1M tanks that they can burn through. Furthermore, your false dichotomy of "1M asset tank or Militia gear" is at best intellectually dishonest, and at worst just plain old trolling. Well said and good points as well... It's a bit ridiculous how people drop such expensive tanks in ambush when the payout is so low. I guess they don't have to care so much though because they won't die against randoms anyway & it's super ez KDR padding. How much easier do you want this game to be?
Severus Smith ZionTCD Legacy Rising 163	Posted - 2013.02.13 23:08:00 - [70] - Quote I think OB's (from the Wabarge) should only be called in when you get enough WP's and have a warning. The lady saying "Enemy Orbital Bombardment imminent" then 3 - 5 seconds later boom. Maybe even a red circle on your HUD / Minimap where it will strike. The warning is generated when the enemy warbarge starts targeting / preparing to fire. I think OS's (from EVE Players) should be available at any time. To allow for targeting you use an item (equipment, gun, I dunno) to laze the target (Like the Ghost in Starcraft). Lazing the target takes 15 - 20 seconds and allows the orbital to be fired. If a target is not lazed when the strike happens then the orbital is random all over the map (like sporadic artillery) and kills friend and foe alike.

Tiel Syysch Imperfects Negative-Feedback 633	Posted - 2013.02.13 23:08:00 - [71] - Quote The Black Jackal wrote: You guys do realise there is a non-audible warning? The Large targetting lasers appear ~5 seconds before the strike so 'paying attention' can save you from an Orbital Strike. It's not 5 secs, it's more like 2, and that's the problem. It's a negligible amount of time.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2013.02.13 23:10:00 - [72] - Quote The Black Jackal wrote: Tiel Syysch wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: Tiel Syysch wrote: The Black Jackal wrote: I'm not saying dont have the delay, but have no warning. As to the 'arbitrary' Point value.. is that any different from COD whereby getting a kill streak of a certain number entitles you to an airstrike? or to call in a hellcopter that will continue to get kilsl for you for a time? Prepare to have your mind blown, but CoD kill streaks aren't instant effects. The stealth bomber, the closest thing to an OB, has a significant delay and you can see it coming if you are paying attention. Yeah, it's also VERY audible. All the airstrikes and stuff show up on the radar before they ever fly over, and the choppers and AC130s and stuff have to fly into the zone before they're within shooting range. There's significantly more of a warning time for CoD kill streaks than there is for the Dust OB. You guys do realise there is a non-audible warning? The Large targetting lasers appear ~5 seconds before the strike so 'paying attention' can save you from an Orbital Strike. Stealth Bombers, airstrikes yes, they aren't instant hit, but they aren't firing from space at super velocity. They are 'flying in' engine sounds. etc. You also 'see them' incoming on your radar because they are there to detect using said radar. DUST OBs don't come across space. I'm sure when they introduce Air-Strikes or something similar from EVE-side (if they do) they will show up on radar before the strike and make noise. If you are going to play the science card, then you better understand that you would have to fire at .5 c through the atmosphere to arrive in 2 seconds. That would be more devastating than the biggest nuke every built on earth.
The Black Jackal The Southern Legion 302	Posted - 2013.02.13 23:11:00 - [73] - Quote Tiel Syysch wrote: The Black Jackal wrote: You guys do realise there is a non-audible warning? The Large targetting lasers appear ~5 seconds before the strike so 'paying attention' can save you from an Orbital Strike. It's not 5 secs, it's more like 2, and that's the problem. It's a negligible amount of time. It's supposed to be. The Orbital Strike is the pinnacle of Off-Map Support. Giving people more time to avoid said strike would make it useless...
The Black Jackal The Southern Legion 302	Posted - 2013.02.13 23:13:00 - [74] - Quote I wasn't playing the science card. I was playing this... Targeting lasers up, gun fires, no other warning... ammunition hits at whatever delay... no huge horn from the sky.
Kain Spero Imperfects Negative-Feedback 901	Posted - 2013.02.13 23:14:00 - [75] - Quote Severus Smith wrote: I think OB's (from the Wabarge) should only be called in when you get enough WP's and have a warning. The lady saying "Enemy Orbital Bombardment imminent" then 3 - 5 seconds later boom. Maybe even a red circle on your HUD / Minimap where it will strike. The warning is generated when the enemy warbarge starts targeting / preparing to fire. I think OS's (from EVE Players) should be available at any time. To allow for targeting you use an item (equipment, gun, I dunno) to laze the target (Like the Ghost in Starcraft). Lazing the target takes 15 - 20 seconds and allows the orbital to be fired. If a target is not lazed when the strike happens then the orbital is random all over the map (like sporadic artillery) and kills friend and foe alike. The problem with having Eve strikes available anytime is you end up with whoever calls strikes first wins. I think the Warpoints system should be maintained for Faction Warfare. You need to let the ground game play itself out. I do think your lazing idea has some merit though. When we get to null though "Lazing the target" sounds very interesting.
Tiel Syysch Imperfects Negative-Feedback 633	Posted - 2013.02.13 23:15:00 - [76] - Quote The Black Jackal wrote: Giving people more time to avoid said strike would make it useless... And I will again refute with facts: People still managed to kill infantry and vehicles when we had a longer warning for OBs. They weren't useless then, it won't make them useless now.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2013.02.13 23:18:00 - [77] - Quote Tiel Syysch wrote: The Black Jackal wrote: Giving people more time to avoid said strike would make it useless... And I will again refute with facts: People still managed to kill infantry and vehicles when we had a longer warning for OBs. They weren't useless then, it won't make them useless now. People are equating "requires more skill to get kills" as useless.
DJINN leukoplast Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 288	Posted - 2013.02.13 23:24:00 - [78] - Quote Noc Tempre wrote: Tiel Syysch wrote: The Black Jackal wrote: Giving people more time to avoid said strike would make it useless... And I will again refute with facts: People still managed to kill infantry and vehicles when we had a longer warning for OBs. They weren't useless then, it won't make them useless now. People are equating "requires more skill to get kills" as useless. That could be said about any nerf though. Inevitably when something gets nerfed, the skill requirement goes up in order to use it effectively.
Scheneighnay McBob Bojo's School of the Trades 1058	Posted - 2013.02.13 23:30:00 - [79] - Quote BobThe843CakeMan wrote: Scheneighnay McBob wrote: Orbitals shouldn't respect friendly fire- problem solved. A few days ago, by coordinating with bobthe843cakeman, I achieved superoverkill by calling a precision strike on a single sniper. It was necessary. Lol ur to kind i got all those points from blowing up 2 tanks tht could not shoot a heavy jumping in front of their faces charging a forge gun and even having to reload it. and then u got the rest from repping me from those god aweful snipers. he deserved it killing me like 2 times. That was just a stupid day for tanks everywhere. Was I still in a squad with you when the other team called in, and lost, at least 5 HAVs? Whoever the squad's forge gunner was ended up swimming in WP by the end of the battle.
Caeli SineDeo Imperfects Negative-Feedback 294	Posted - 2013.02.13 23:38:00 - [80] - Quote First off I killed tanks all the time with the old orbital system. I got 5 man kill average with it. It was not hard to use and the old orbital itself was way weaker then the current. Orbital system should not shine where it is going to hit but there should be 2 types of spoken warnings. First would enemy orbital incoming. Second should be Enemy orbital landing within you area. This will happen if your near a orbital strike position. Each will be 5 seconds before the orbital hits. Sorry but right now they are no skilled easy kill mechanic. People defending them just want that easy kill mechanic. People talking about risk vs reward and how tankers should not bring in there tanks all the time. I am sorry but assault users can bring in there fully dec proto gear all the time why am I stuck being less then them?

Jaiden Longshot Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 216	Posted - 2013.02.13 23:43:00 - [81] - Quote I can see where this would be an irritant to a tanker. No different than the tank or foot sniper sitting behind the redline with an "I win button", right? You don't get a warning for that rail smacking you in the face from across the map. Noc, You mention the lack of ISK risked for the "I win button", as you call it, but how many suits modules and guns did that squad burn through to get the 2500 WP. Again, I get where it is frustrating for a tanker but there are a butt load of irritants for infantry including your tank. I do think the tanks were nerf'd a bit much without proper corp battle testing but a 10 second warning for a precision? Really? Would you be ok with a 10 second warning before you fire a rail? or maybe your tank should play ice cream truck music that can be heard by everyone within 500 meters. Golden rule of capsuleers should always be applied "Don't fly (in this case drive) what you can't afford to lose. I highly doubt you can't afford to drop a tank whenever the mood strikes you.
Tiel Syysch Imperfects Negative-Feedback 633	Posted - 2013.02.13 23:48:00 - [82] - Quote Jaiden Longshot wrote: Again, I get where it is frustrating for a tanker but there are a butt load of irritants for infantry including your tank. I do think the tanks were nerf'd a bit much without proper corp battle testing but a 10 second warning for a precision? Really? It's not a 10 sec warning. What he proposed is a 5 sec stealth delay that enemies don't see, followed by a 5 sec visible warning they are aware of.
BobThe843CakeMan BurgezzE.T.F 132	Posted - 2013.02.13 23:58:00 - [83] - Quote Scheneighnay McBob wrote: BobThe843CakeMan wrote: Scheneighnay McBob wrote: Orbitals shouldn't respect friendly fire- problem solved. A few days ago, by coordinating with bobthe843cakeman, I achieved superoverkill by calling a precision strike on a single sniper. It was necessary. Lol ur to kind i got all those points from blowing up 2 tanks tht could not shoot a heavy jumping in front of their faces charging a forge gun and even having to reload it. and then u got the rest from repping me from those god aweful snipers. he deserved it killing me like 2 times. That was just a stupid day for tanks everywhere. Was I still in a squad with you when the other team called in, and lost, at least 5 HAVs? Whoever the squad's forge gunner was ended up swimming in WP by the end of the battle. yea it was me i killed like 5 tanks in one game with my forge or more. i dunno why ppl say tanks are big problems they are easy to kill. Lol. maybe i should post this on my alt i did it as o well.
BobThe843CakeMan BurgezzE.T.F 132	Posted - 2013.02.14 00:01:00 - [84] - Quote My look on this is that orbitals either need a counter as a tank driver without having to be driving a proto tank or make them weaker lke before. a timer could work if it was not noticed and then after the timer the normal warning went out so the person using it just can't go here and it instantly kills the tank. They would acually have to use it smartly.
Gelan Corbaine BetaMax. 103	Posted - 2013.02.14 00:06:00 - [85] - Quote No. Especially not on Eve Player Strikes .. You complain about million dollar tanks . Eve Players are risking at least 10 mill fitted destroyers to make those strikes. Making their job even less rewarding than it already currently is a bad deal.
GetShotUp UnReaL. 85	Posted - 2013.02.14 00:07:00 - [86] - Quote It's not really free kills if it actually takes teamwork to call in an orb, but I definitely agree that they should add at least a 5 second warning.
Jaiden Longshot Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 216	Posted - 2013.02.14 00:09:00 - [87] - Quote Tiel Syysch wrote: Jaiden Longshot wrote: Again, I get where it is frustrating for a tanker but there are a butt load of irritants for infantry including your tank. I do think the tanks were nerf'd a bit much without proper corp battle testing but a 10 second warning for a precision? Really? It's not a 10 sec warning. What he proposed is a 5 sec stealth delay that enemies don't see, followed by a 5 sec visible warning they are aware of. My bad on actually typing "10 second warning" It is still an overall 10 second delay from when you call it in....As it is it takes at least 5 seconds (if not more) just to get the menus open and access to targeting. Now you're talking about 15 seconds at minimum to get a strike in from when you earn it. You can cap an objective and be half way to the next one in 15 seconds. I think some kind of visual indicator from the MCC is reasonable but why should you get a 5 second visual or proximity audible warning as to where it's going to land? A general audible warning for everyone on the map also seems reasonable but I just don't like the idea of telling the player "Hey you have 5 seconds until a strike lands right here.
Thumb Green Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 21	Posted - 2013.02.14 00:20:00 - [88] - Quote I just wish they wouldn't kill me before the first shell (or whatever it is) hits the ground; or is the light supposed to be a weapon too?
BobThe843CakeMan BurgezzE.T.F 132	Posted - 2013.02.14 00:29:00 - [89] - Quote Gelan Corbaine wrote: No. Especially not on Eve Player Strikes .. You complain about million dollar tanks . Eve Players are risking at least 10 mill fitted destroyers to make those strikes. Making their job even less rewarding than it already currently is a bad deal. we are talking about the ones in pub matches the warbarge strikes. those are not used by anyone as of now. eve strikes sure why not kill me fast they paid good isk for those big gun but pub match warbarges should have some kind of disadvantage compared to an eve strike. Also 2500 wps is not hard to get esspecially with a full squad of cooperation. in fact when go into battle with a full squad i normally get 2 or 3. i even got 2 solo before. you guys make it sound so hard to get these strikes.
Thumb Green Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 21	Posted - 2013.02.14 00:37:00 - [90] - Quote BobThe843CakeMan wrote: [quote=Gelan Corbaine] Also 2500 wps is not hard to get esspecially with a full squad of cooperation.. I can get around half that solo and I'm barely an alright player.



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