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Serious imbalance with ISK and OBs

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Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2013.02.13 20:24:00 - [1] - Quote Right now orbitals are free and can easily destroy everything but high level armor tanks. This is due to the combination of their high damage, huge radius, long duration, and short warning. Something needs to give, and I think a longer delay between use and landing would help. Because right now it's pointless to use anything above a sica, and that's counter-intuitive with the SP investment I have made. Personally I think it should be: Call-in 5 sec Warning 5 sec Hits That way they would take a lot more skill or teamwork to be used effectively, instead of free kills. Edit: it's in general because I want to get some preliminary opinions before posting a full suggestion in the feedback subforum.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2013.02.13 20:31:00 - [2] - Quote Val'herik Dorn wrote: They are meant to do everything you just ccomplained about... They should be feared and scary things that come in and end the kitten out of anything in their sphere of effect. The warbarge precision strikes are weak when you compare them to actual eve obs. So no nerf to the OB in my opinion space death working as intended. If there is nowhere to run because you have them surrounded then you will still get the kill. Right now they are the hand of God reaching anywhere on the map for a free "I WIN".
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2013.02.13 20:38:00 - [3] - Quote Knight SoIaire wrote: They're really the only thing that can destroy a fully fitted tank other than a fitting designed to deal with them, which I nor many other people do not own. I like the idea of the warning, maybe a visual warning, so that tank drivers and anyone in the blast radius would have to pay attention to their surrroundings. They are a little ridicilous, I was killed indoors with one, yet if I stand under a small little overhang on a certain map (Not sure which one) I'm completely protected! ^^^ That happens because OBs always hit at 0 ground height. A few maps have spots beneath this level hence protection. On other maps that happens to fall right inside the building. At least that's how it seems to me (seems to be a random bug occurance)
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2013.02.13 22:00:00 - [4] - Quote The alternative is to drop tanks in price so they sit around the same expense as prototype suits. If you can lose one and still make a profit it would at least be an improvement. I still think there is a serious lack of skill involved in the entire OB system.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2013.02.13 22:03:00 - [5] - Quote Hel Zazaku wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: Right now orbitals are free and can easily destroy everything but high level armor tanks. This is due to the combination of their high damage, huge radius, long duration, and short warning. Something needs to give, and I think a longer delay between use and landing would help. Because right now it's pointless to use anything above a sica, and that's counter-intuitive with the SP investment I have made. Personally I think it should be: Call-in 5 sec Warning 5 sec Hits That way they would take a lot more skill or teamwork to be used effectively, instead of free kills. Edit: it's in general because I want to get some preliminary opinions before posting a full suggestion in the feedback subforum. Sorry but just because you don't want to lose your tank doesn't mean the system is broken. I'm not saying that the system couldn't use some fine tuning, but what I am saying is that it is a great counter for HAV's that doesn't need fixing because you just don't like it. You sir have no concept of counterplay. There is no skill involved yet they are instant hard counters. Fail game design.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2013.02.13 22:13:00 - [6] - Quote GeneralButtNaked wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: You sir have no concept of counterplay. There is no skill involved yet they are instant hard counters. Fail game design. You sir, have no sense of risk/reward. You want to call in that expensive tank to run a train on the enemy, they just might make you eat the bill. Either go on foot, or stop whining. Imperfect tears, so salty. Risk - 1M+ ISK can be eliminated by any squad with a well placed OB Reward - 200k to 300k ISK for going 30-0 and no one brings serious AV or OB's See the imbalance yet?
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2013.02.13 22:20:00 - [7] - Quote Hel Zazaku wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: GeneralButtNaked wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: You sir have no concept of counterplay. There is no skill involved yet they are instant hard counters. Fail game design. You sir, have no sense of risk/reward. You want to call in that expensive tank to run a train on the enemy, they just might make you eat the bill. Either go on foot, or stop whining. Imperfect tears, so salty. Risk - 1M+ ISK can be eliminated by any squad with a well placed OB Reward - 200k to 300k ISK for going 30-0 and no one brings serious AV or OB's See the imbalance yet? No. Then there is no reasoning with you. Risking 1M ISK that is incredibly vulnerable to something that is awarded for free every match for at most an extra 100k isk over just running around in militia gear or even AFKing is not a proper risk/reward tradeoff.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2013.02.13 22:25:00 - [8] - Quote Johnny Guilt wrote: Do the orbital strikes team kill? i hope they do. that way there more of a risk for using them. Not in pub matches, the only place to earn SP currently.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2013.02.13 22:28:00 - [9] - Quote Baal Roo wrote: So stop calling in 1M ISK gear in pub matches? 1M is advanced level gear. Maybe I don't want to be forced to run militia just to not go broke? Especially since I have a higher survival rate than the average.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2013.02.13 22:43:00 - [10] - Quote The Black Jackal wrote: I don't think there shoudl be a warning at all for Orbitals... Targeting shouldn't make a sound. The first and last sound you should here is the sky tearing apart as death descends from the sky to obliterate you. This big horn from the sky before an orbital strike? Why? Where does it come from? What purpose does it serve but to warn? EVE-side Orbitals can already be delayed due to a not-so quick finger on the Shoot Button, or even an afk pilot (yes we've had this when attempting out-of-corp support.) And when he fired, the timing was so wrong and he hit nothing, didn't help us achieve anything by doing so. So I will vote the opposite, and say we should have NO warning before Orbital Strikes. Just the sound of the ammunition splitting the atmosphere the moment before it strikes. We come to the classic problem with ground warfare. If you are going for "realistic" instead of "good gameplay" we wouldn't be fighting on the planet at all, or certainly not in locales that you could afford the collateral damage from a strike from orbit.

Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2013.02.13 22:45:00 - [11] - Quote Baal Roo wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: Baal Roo wrote: So stop calling in 1M ISK gear in pub matches? 1M is advanced level gear. Maybe I don't want to be forced to run militia just to not go broke? Especially since I have a higher survival rate than the average. sounds like a personal problem. Seriously, why would you call in a 1M asset into a match that can only gain you 200k-300k ISK? I honestly don't understand your reasoning here. It's almost like you think you're playing a completed game, and that instant battles will be the heart of the gameplay for people with 1M tanks that they can burn through. Furthermore, your false dichotomy of "1M asset tank or Militia gear" is at best intellectually dishonest, and at worst just plain old trolling. To get a functional tank under the 200k ISK mark requires a militia hull and BPO fittings.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2013.02.13 22:52:00 - [12] - Quote The Black Jackal wrote: Tiel Syysch wrote: The Black Jackal wrote: This big horn from the sky before an orbital strike? Why? Where does it come from? What purpose does it serve but to warn? Contrary to some peoples' beliefs, this is a game, and games are meant to be enjoyable for both parties involved. Instantly dying with no preventative measures because the other team reached an arbitrary point value is a poorly designed mechanic. Preventative measures? Like a bunker? A Shield? An insta-dome of impentrable force? Or just getting under cover (does work on most maps.) I'm not saying dont have the delay, but have no warning. As to the 'arbitrary' Point value.. is that any different from COD whereby getting a kill streak of a certain number entitles you to an airstrike? or to call in a hellcopter that will continue to get kilsl for you for a time? How many 'support' items in any FPS are not controlled by such a point system? We at least get a no-point system for vehicles. CoD killstreaks are designed specifically to reinforce the snowball so the person with the lucky first few kills goes on a rampage. Even in COD, there are ways to avoid everything except the nuke, which is more of a cherry tapper than anything else. So actually, CoD killstreaks are significantly better than DUST's OBs.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2013.02.13 22:54:00 - [13] - Quote Tiel Syysch wrote: The Black Jackal wrote: I'm not saying dont have the delay, but have no warning. As to the 'arbitrary' Point value.. is that any different from COD whereby getting a kill streak of a certain number entitles you to an airstrike? or to call in a hellcopter that will continue to get kilsl for you for a time? Prepare to have your mind blown, but CoD kill streaks aren't instant effects. The stealth bomber, the closest thing to an OB, has a significant delay and you can see it coming if you are paying attention.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2013.02.13 23:10:00 - [14] - Quote The Black Jackal wrote: Tiel Syysch wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: Tiel Syysch wrote: The Black Jackal wrote: I'm not saying dont have the delay, but have no warning. As to the 'arbitrary' Point value.. is that any different from COD whereby getting a kill streak of a certain number entitles you to an airstrike? or to call in a hellcopter that will continue to get kilsl for you for a time? Prepare to have your mind blown, but CoD kill streaks aren't instant effects. The stealth bomber, the closest thing to an OB, has a significant delay and you can see it coming if you are paying attention. Yeah, it's also VERY audible. All the airstrikes and stuff show up on the radar before they ever fly over, and the choppers and AC130s and stuff have to fly into the zone before they're within shooting range. There's significantly more of a warning time for CoD kill streaks than there is for the Dust OB. You guys do realise there is a non-audible warning? The Large targetting lasers appear ~5 seconds before the strike so 'paying attention' can save you from an Orbital Strike. Stealth Bombers, airstrikes yes, they aren't instant hit, but they aren't firing from space at super velocity. They are 'flying in' engine sounds. etc. You also 'see them' incoming on your radar because they are there to detect using said radar. DUST OBs don't come across space. I'm sure when they introduce Air-Strikes or something similar from EVE-side (if they do) they will show up on radar before the strike and make noise. If you are going to play the science card, then you better understand that you would have to fire at .5 c through the atmosphere to arrive in 2 seconds. That would be more devastating than the biggest nuke every built on earth.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2013.02.13 23:18:00 - [15] - Quote Tiel Syysch wrote: The Black Jackal wrote: Giving people more time to avoid said strike would make it useless... And I will again refute with facts: People still managed to kill infantry and vehicles when we had a longer warning for OBs. They weren't useless then, it won't make them useless now. People are equating "requires more skill to get kills" as useless.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2013.02.14 02:13:00 - [16] - Quote I think people are seriously misunderstanding the point. Orbitals do everything well at no risk and there is no counter nor reasonable way to stay out of the line of fire. It doesn't have to be a nerf, that was merely one option of many. Another is a capturable structure that prevents orbitals from landing within their radius (think AAA from MAG). A special hardner for tanks that significantly reduces damage from orbitals perhaps? Increasing the delay requires no new code though can can be done now. Why not try it, it is beta after all?
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2013.02.14 03:14:00 - [17] - Quote Lol, the only redline my tank ever hangs out in is the enemies. So many fail assumptions going around.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2013.02.14 03:32:00 - [18] - Quote There is no counter. It is simply "I win". That is the problem.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2013.02.14 03:34:00 - [19] - Quote NightEagle11 wrote: " Boo who I hide in the games most OP armored vehicles all day in pubs and cry when one gets blown up" Stop crying everyone has the ability to use them so if you dont get one thats you or your squads own fault. Honestly you shouldnt be losing that much isk in a pub match anyway. Maybe you should get gud and dodge the strike.... Ive seen good tankers do it How does the ability for everyone to use them act as a counter to one being called in on you?
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2013.02.14 03:57:00 - [20] - Quote Citrutex wrote: 'isk balance' ? Fine, let me call one it at any time for 100k With a proper cooldown this is still better than the current system.

Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2013.02.14 04:00:00 - [21] - Quote zeek1227 zeek1227 wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: NightEagle11 wrote: " Boo who I hide in the games most OP armored vehicles all day in pubs and cry when one gets blown up" Stop crying everyone has the ability to use them so if you dont get one thats you or your squads own fault. Honestly you shouldnt be losing that much isk in a pub match anyway. Maybe you should get gud and dodge the strike.... Ive seen good tankers do it How does the ability for everyone to use them act as a counter to one being called in on you? It doesn't need a counter... It is part of war you die sometimes and there isn't much u can do about it That is why you don't use it if u cant afford to lose it Tanks are priced to require surviving at least 3 matches to break even. How is a killstreak that you will encounter at least 4 times over those three matches which has a 90% kill rate (I've never failed to kill with them, but apparently you can get lucky) balanced with that cost? The issue is not that OBs are strong. The issue is the cheap kill that smacks of CoD. But even Call of Duty does it better, since you can use perks, equipment, and/or cover to counter, hide, or avoid the killstreaks. Not so in DUST.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2013.02.14 04:01:00 - [22] - Quote Zekain Kade wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: Citrutex wrote: 'isk balance' ? Fine, let me call one it at any time for 100k With a proper cooldown this is still better than the current system. That ont matter when everyone is filthy rich. "100k? pfft, that wont matter when I have 2.5 billion in my wallet." Better =/= good. At least it isn't something arbitrary like WP, which promotes snowballing instead of counterbalance.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2013.02.14 04:05:00 - [23] - Quote zeek1227 zeek1227 wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: zeek1227 zeek1227 wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: NightEagle11 wrote: " Boo who I hide in the games most OP armored vehicles all day in pubs and cry when one gets blown up" Stop crying everyone has the ability to use them so if you dont get one thats you or your squads own fault. Honestly you shouldnt be losing that much isk in a pub match anyway. Maybe you should get gud and dodge the strike.... Ive seen good tankers do it How does the ability for everyone to use them act as a counter to one being called in on you? It doesn't need a counter... It is part of war you die sometimes and there isn't much u can do about it That is why you don't use it if u cant afford to lose it Tanks are priced to require surviving at least 3 matches to break even. How is a killstreak that you will encounter at least 4 times over those three matches which has a 90% kill rate (I've never failed to kill with them, but apparently you can get lucky) balanced with that cost? The issue is not that OBs are strong. The issue is the cheap kill that smacks of CoD. But even Call of Duty does it better, since you can use perks, equipment, and/or cover to counter, hide, or avoid the killstreaks. Not so in DUST. Ok then everyone with a few million isk should be able to call in a tank and have that instant win for 3 matches? The OB consideration is just the thing you can do nothing about. You still have to deal with AV grenades, forges, installations, swarms, collision damage, flux grenades and other vehicles. Keeping a tank alive through 3 skirmishes in a row is a challenge of luck due to OBs. We aren't even touching on the skill of V vs AV.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2013.02.14 04:18:00 - [24] - Quote zeek1227 zeek1227 wrote: here's an idea DONT USE UR EXPENSIVE TANK IN A PUB MATCH u could reserve it for Corp battles and use something else like I said before don't use it it u cant afford to lose it So we should be okay with effectively deleting even more content from the game? Seriously, I'm tired of all you people who can't read beyond a suggestion and parrot HTFU without even paying attention to the problem. Clearly I have enough ISK to run tanks or I wouldn't be losing them. I am just pointing out an imbalance and shocked by how many people go "hur dur it's fine becuz it's not me".
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2013.02.14 04:22:00 - [25] - Quote You are trolls of the highest order, there is a difference between being able to afford something and debating if the cost was justified.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2013.02.14 04:30:00 - [26] - Quote zeek1227 zeek1227 wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: You are trolls of the highest order, there is a difference between being able to afford something and debating if the cost was justified. If it effects you isk wise to the point where you make a forum post wanting to nerf giant bombs that are supposed to pwn everything then you obviously can not offord it therefore you should not run said item in a pub match where it willow most likely get destroyed. Such items should be saved for fights that matter like Corp battles or if you feel lucky. Not on a match to match basis Maybe someday the brinkmanship will end and we can actually discuss the mechanic in question instead of petty mudslinging. You can not have a free "I win" button with zero counters when assets are permalost. It is poor gameplay design. A nerf is not the only way to correct the imbalance of risk vs reward, but to deny it exists is petty, nieve, or both.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2013.02.14 04:37:00 - [27] - Quote Sloth9230 wrote: Is this really about cost? Or is it because OB's can kill you while all you can do is watch helplessly? I feel the exact same way when I spawn right in front of a bunch of reds y'know. It's the same effect, different mechanic and consequences. It still boils down to semi-random destruction of assets in a way no player could prevent.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2013.02.14 13:56:00 - [28] - Quote BattleCry1791 wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: Right now orbitals are free and can easily destroy everything but high level armor tanks. This is due to the combination of their high damage, huge radius, long duration, and short warning. Something needs to give, and I think a longer delay between use and landing would help. Because right now it's pointless to use anything above a sica, and that's counter-intuitive with the SP investment I have made. Personally I think it should be: Call-in 5 sec Warning 5 sec Hits That way they would take a lot more skill or teamwork to be used effectively, instead of free kills. Edit: it's in general because I want to get some preliminary opinions before posting a full suggestion in the feedback subforum. I'd like to point out where this comes from for those of you that don't understand what Noc is talking about. Last week, Noc and I were on opposing teams. I think I was in a group of three and we were playing on Manus Peak and Noc is hill sniping with his tank. We tried to swarm him, forge him, you name it, all he did was back up, rebuild his shields and kept tank sniping. The rest of his group ate through the blue dots on our team and we were having a pretty rough go of it, got cloned. But in the last 30 seconds of the match, we got an oribtal and dropped it right on his head. He went 15-1, my orbital being his only death. That's what Noc is actually whining about. The fact that he can't sit on a hill and camp without fear of retribution. This has nothing to do with balance, or other players. It's his own selfish agenda. Instead of doing what good tankers do e.g.; look at team scores to judge if an orbital is coming, keep moving, or spec to survive the pub match orbital (which I've seen happen), he'd rather nerf the orbital strike. So there you have, the true motivation of this thread. Which should end any further discussion save the whining and crying that is bound to come from the OP and his supporters. Good day. Let's just ignore talking about the veracity of your anecdote and discuss the scenario as YOU claimed. A tank is on the field You fail to kill it using AV You are awarded an OB ??? Tank dies What, pray tell, is the proper missing step to change the outcome?
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2013.02.14 15:22:00 - [29] - Quote zeek1227 zeek1227 wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: BattleCry1791 wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: Right now orbitals are free and can easily destroy everything but high level armor tanks. This is due to the combination of their high damage, huge radius, long duration, and short warning. Something needs to give, and I think a longer delay between use and landing would help. Because right now it's pointless to use anything above a sica, and that's counter-intuitive with the SP investment I have made. Personally I think it should be: Call-in 5 sec Warning 5 sec Hits That way they would take a lot more skill or teamwork to be used effectively, instead of free kills. Edit: it's in general because I want to get some preliminary opinions before posting a full suggestion in the feedback subforum. I'd like to point out where this comes from for those of you that don't understand what Noc is talking about. Last week, Noc and I were on opposing teams. I think I was in a group of three and we were playing on Manus Peak and Noc is hill sniping with his tank. We tried to swarm him, forge him, you name it, all he did was back up, rebuild his shields and kept tank sniping. The rest of his group ate through the blue dots on our team and we were having a pretty rough go of it, got cloned. But in the last 30 seconds of the match, we got an oribtal and dropped it right on his head. He went 15-1, my orbital being his only death. That's what Noc is actually whining about. The fact that he can't sit on a hill and camp without fear of retribution. This has nothing to do with balance, or other players. It's his own selfish agenda. Instead of doing what good tankers do e.g.; look at team scores to judge if an orbital is coming, keep moving, or spec to survive the pub match orbital (which I've seen happen), he'd rather nerf the orbital strike. So there you have, the true motivation of this thread. Which should end any further discussion save the whining and crying that is bound to come from the OP and his supporters. Good day. Let's just ignore talking about the veracity of your anecdote and discuss the scenario as YOU claimed. A tank is on the field You fail to kill it using AV You are awarded an OB ??? Tank dies What, pray tell, is the proper missing step to change the outcome? You are an idiot They changed tactics and killed you stop crying You make rocks look smart. No one is crying, I'm just ripping apart the people who refuse to discuss an issue just because they perceive it doesn't affect them personally, negatively.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2013.02.14 16:14:00 - [30] - Quote semperfi1999 wrote: Caeli SineDeo wrote: semperfi1999 wrote: Especially since you have have a teammate rush an objective during the orbital and take it while the enemies are dying to the orbital that does not affect your allies. OBS definitely need some work. I disagree with Cael that it would take the length of time he stated. I think that the timeframe of selecting the location and then the warning beacon .......5 seconds later first strike hits. This is the way MAG did it and these strikes would still get you an easy 8-10 kills and even more if you place it correctly. What this would do is cause the leader to have to think before placing the orbital right now its OH A BUNCH OF RED DOTS...click button....profit. It would be OH a bunch of red dots do I put it right on them....right behind them....or right in front of them? Each has its own benefit. RIght behind them means you push them fowards and possibly into an ambush of your teammates. Right on top of them means if they arent paying attention you kill them all. Right in front of them you are hoping they arent paying attention and run right into it.....or you are trying to cut them off for a short time from going into that area. All of these are valid tactics but right now its not needed. Only tactic needed with OBS is to click in the middle of the group of red dots and watch them all die. Its easy peasy......and you get 2-3 of those per game if your even halfway decent. Semper you might want to look at my posts. I said spoken warning then 5 seconds later the ob hits. So it is the same time frame as yours except you gain a visual warning. Noc mentioned a 5 second delay then warning then a 5 second delay to impact. I just want a 5 second warning so people can tactically positon themself or prepare so orbitals are not easy objective win buttons or the only forum of AV a team needs. sorry I must have confused you two. Nevertheless i believe that the OP initial thoughts of a total 10 second delay (with only a 5 second warning for the reds) is just too much. A 5 second visible warning before the strike begins is enough and will still make the strike useful. As stated MAG proved this without a doubt you can have a delay and strike are just as effective just not the I PWN ALL button. It probably is too much. I don't like that the rounds are traveling at relativistic speeds through the atmosphere, but as long as there is counterplay added to the orbital mechanics things have improved. Perhaps there should be different warbarge strikes that have different travel speeds and effects?

Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2013.02.14 17:18:00 - [31] - Quote Sir Meode wrote: nothing wrong with OB's. HTFU. if you for from an OB in a HAV then it's your own fault for being stationary. It's hardly an issue of being stationary. To say nothing is wrong belies your prejudice. Something needs to change, a delay is not the only possible answer.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2013.02.14 17:25:00 - [32] - Quote ImperfectFan514 wrote: This game doesn't have enough tactical assets. CCP needs to add more tactical assets rather than adding in stupid trees for people to hide behind. This game needs counterplay for the assets that already exist before we start adding more mechanics.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2013.02.14 18:08:00 - [33] - Quote mikegunnz wrote: lDocHollidayl wrote: Let me try my best to encourage everyone to separate this from Imperfects VS community. If I skilled into tanks, the OB presents a specific problem for me. The almost instant heavy damage on a single place I view as broken. As has been mentioned, though not specifically enough, the OB is too simple to achieve. Now you tell me that I can only practice with my miltia or cheap versions of what I skill in to. I say this in the most humble way possible... it may be the reason the IMPs have great success in Corp matches is because we use Corp gear often. I run prototype gear in Pubs with the end game to understand my equipment and improve on it and my game play accordingly. Not to go 30 and 0. Those are meaningless numbers. Some people stroke themselves but not all of us. Then in a Corp match against great teams like the bunnies I know where I have to be to make my insanely specific rolled laser work like the light saber everyone thinks it is. Some bunnies will attest to this. Humbly... we should be able to practice with high end gear. We can afford to lose it and do, but if there is a broke mechanic let us fix it. ... Community, can you honestly say after my squad attempts many AV attacks on a great tanker a reasonable option is too use WP earned to call a strike to do the job for me? I honestly gain 3 to 4 OB's on accident in a skirmish game when running with a squad of IMPS. If you honest answer is yes then I can not say much more. Some thoughts on a fix? If you think it needs it. A controlled letter acts as a shield against OBs...safe zone feature that Noc mentioned like AAA in MAG is genius. A warning that we all deem reasonable. A module specific to OB hardening. A higher WP number top earn. Weaker and stronger versions of OB according to WP earned...5000 gives type A,7500 gives type B. Remember tanks can cost upwards of millions. You bring in your super tank and rock my squad...I run and call multiple OB's and kill it? Seems off to me. Remember WP to OB is currently very easy. ... I'll keep this as succinct as possible. I like the thought of either: 1. a feature like mortar battery/AAA like in MAG. (requiring you to capture/destroy an asset before you can drop strikes) OR 2. adjusting the WP requirement. Perhaps keeping the current WP (2500, if I'm not mistaken) for a "weaker" strike. Still fatal to infantry, but only capable of heavily damaging an HAV and then a "stronger" OB than can kill EVERYTHING. (perhaps requiring 5000WP) That said, I still think that the tankers are complaining because they don't want to get their HAVs blown up, more so than the guise of "game balance" Look, we all can lose expensive fits in battle. They may seem like "cheap" deaths, or unfair, but they happen to all of us. A good tanker, can go 10 matches without losing a tank (especially in pubs). They may have gone a dozen matches, but they get a "cheap" death by orbital. ** happens. Expensive infantry fits, cost much less, but happen more often. A really good infantry player, may be accostumed to going 30-2, or 40-3, etc etc. They may have a match where they go 20-6. This would be a "bad" match for them. More costly, because enemy team had 3 HAVs on the map, perhaps the player died because they go for objectives and were RE'd a couple times. Perhaps the were orbitaled. Point is, they will occasionally lose more in a match than they expect. Same result... ** happens. I really don't think the OB is much of a "problem" as it is. Find me the tanker than can go an AVERAGE of 10 matches per tank in skirmish. I have a huge stack of money I'd like him to go to Vegas for me with.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2013.02.14 19:00:00 - [34] - Quote zeek1227 zeek1227 wrote: I'm done arguing with you. But It is pretty obvious that you are just another imperfect crying that they got killed. OBS are not that easy to get. The most I have gotten is 3 with a 4 man squad of my corps best players. They do not have a huge AOE and if you fit your tank correctly you will be able to survive one. We both know if you were an assault drop suit user you would be QQing that tanks were OP or heavies or whatever killed you. Just because you are an imperfect does not mean you shouldnt die. Im out bye bye all You're a nobody who appears to see nothing beyond a tag out of spite and envy. You can't be done with something you never started. You ranted sure, but nowhere beyond "I don't care since it doesn't hurt me" did you present anything approaching an argument.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2013.02.14 19:35:00 - [35] - Quote semperfi1999 wrote: The problem is there has not been one good argument made against the arguments made regarding the OBS. All arguments against the topic has been essentially HTFU or "I dont care cause it doesnt cost me much if I die from it". What arguments do you guys have showing that the OBS should stay exactly as they are? Currently they are a free, extremely powerful, easy to obtain, no warning, or indication of incoming (1 second between the light/sound and the first strike is hardly more then a look your screwed light) strike that will basically eliminate virtually everything in its AOE. Our proposal is that this does not seem right and there should be a time delay between the warning light and the first strike of greater duration then a second. Currently 5 seconds seems like it would be enough time to at least try to get out of the area but still fast enough that if you arent on the ball your dead (even then you might die anyway). If CCP comes back and says actually strikes are working exactly as we wanted them to as we want them to eliminate everything in the area and not be hard to obtain in a match. Well then the argument is over CCP is designing the game they want to see and if that is what they want we cant argue with it other than to as they say HTFU or leave. However until CCP actually says that this is up for debate. Personally I would like someone to put forth a better argument then the red herrings or HTFU arguments that abound on this thread. I am actually very open to others opinions and if you have valid points I could possibly change my mind.........so convince me.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2013.02.14 19:37:00 - [36] - Quote semperfi1999 wrote: The problem is there has not been one good argument made against the arguments made regarding the OBS. All arguments against the topic has been essentially HTFU or "I dont care cause it doesnt cost me much if I die from it". What arguments do you guys have showing that the OBS should stay exactly as they are? Currently they are a free, extremely powerful, easy to obtain, no warning, or indication of incoming (1 second between the light/sound and the first strike is hardly more then a look your screwed light) strike that will basically eliminate virtually everything in its AOE. Our proposal is that this does not seem right and there should be a time delay between the warning light and the first strike of greater duration then a second. Currently 5 seconds seems like it would be enough time to at least try to get out of the area but still fast enough that if you arent on the ball your dead (even then you might die anyway). If CCP comes back and says actually strikes are working exactly as we wanted them to as we want them to eliminate everything in the area and not be hard to obtain in a match. Well then the argument is over CCP is designing the game they want to see and if that is what they want we cant argue with it other than to as they say HTFU or leave. However until CCP actually says that this is up for debate. Personally I would like someone to put forth a better argument then the red herrings or HTFU arguments that abound on this thread. I am actually very open to others opinions and if you have valid points I could possibly change my mind.........so convince me. Right now there is too small an element of skill to countering an OB. A longer delay is merely one way, and in my opinion the simplest, to add time for the enemy to react. If we want to make this realistic no one would be fighting on the ground in the first place except in areas where calling down OBs is NOT an option.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2013.02.14 19:42:00 - [37] - Quote Skihids wrote: semperfi1999 wrote: The problem is there has not been one good argument made against the arguments made regarding the OBS. All arguments against the topic has been essentially HTFU or "I dont care cause it doesnt cost me much if I die from it". What arguments do you guys have showing that the OBS should stay exactly as they are? Currently they are a free, extremely powerful, easy to obtain, no warning, or indication of incoming (1 second between the light/sound and the first strike is hardly more then a look your screwed light) strike that will basically eliminate virtually everything in its AOE. Our proposal is that this does not seem right and there should be a time delay between the warning light and the first strike of greater duration then a second. Currently 5 seconds seems like it would be enough time to at least try to get out of the area but still fast enough that if you arent on the ball your dead (even then you might die anyway). If CCP comes back and says actually strikes are working exactly as we wanted them to as we want them to eliminate everything in the area and not be hard to obtain in a match. Well then the argument is over CCP is designing the game they want to see and if that is what they want we cant argue with it other than to as they say HTFU or leave. However until CCP actually says that this is up for debate. Personally I would like someone to put forth a better argument then the red herrings or HTFU arguments that abound on this thread. I am actually very open to others opinions and if you have valid points I could possibly change my mind.........so convince me. And that gets back to my point: What mission does CCP see for the OB? It's a great DUST/EVE connection, and it fulfills that part very well. But beyond that, what is it supposed to be for? Is it supposed to be "fair" or not? If so, just what constitutes fair? In a game, an element that you have no skill-based way to protect yourself from, is clearly broken.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2013.02.14 20:10:00 - [38] - Quote zeek1227 zeek1227 wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: zeek1227 zeek1227 wrote: I'm done arguing with you. But It is pretty obvious that you are just another imperfect crying that they got killed. OBS are not that easy to get. The most I have gotten is 3 with a 4 man squad of my corps best players. They do not have a huge AOE and if you fit your tank correctly you will be able to survive one. We both know if you were an assault drop suit user you would be QQing that tanks were OP or heavies or whatever killed you. Just because you are an imperfect does not mean you shouldnt die. Im out bye bye all You're a nobody who appears to see nothing beyond a tag out of spite and envy. You can't be done with something you never started. You ranted sure, but nowhere beyond "I don't care since it doesn't hurt me" did you present anything approaching an argument. god you drew me back... I in no way envy you ROFL the thought is hilarious and I repeatedly told you a way to counter the OB (fit tank properly) which you completely ignored for your ignorant comments about how Its soooo op. Believe me obs do hurt me i have died plenty of times to them. but guess what? i can use them too So cool your **** and think before you speak IMP I didn't ignore, I refuted. An OB does over 3000 damage to my tank per pulse (I have seen it do way more, I have rarely seen it do less, but this is the average in my first hand experience). Moving at full speed will still leave you hit anywhere from 2 to 5 times, depending on the pattern in relation to your direction of travel. A good sagaris fit can eek out 10k EHP with an active rep or 15k EHP with a full buffer. Note that is the top of the top end. So an active rep sagaris will die in 3 pulses, which means less than half of the strike has to hit the tank to kill it. The full buffer sagaris will be out of commission for several minutes if it does survive and hide in the redline. Note that the EHP drops to under 8k EHP for 75% of the time while the active hardeners are down. A madruger can easily push 20k EHP for 85% of the time, a surya can soar as high as 30k. So yes, there are tanks that can survive a signal orbital. Armor tanks are more likely to survive, and aren't a lick slower for it with KBM. This doesn't not show any evidence of a counter mechanism. Being survivable by the hardiest tanks a minority of the time under the best conditions is not balanced. Furthermore, this doesn't just affect tanks, a prototype heavy or logistics will run into the same problem. Or a sniper with an officer weapon. At least they can switch out of those fits though. Returning vehicles when you feel the risk has changed would be another potential solution. But whatever you say, pretending there is no problem shows an utter inability to understand the fundamentals of balance and the phrase .
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2013.02.14 20:12:00 - [39] - Quote Skihids wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: In a game, an element that you have no skill-based way to protect yourself from, is clearly broken. I recall discussion many weeks back about tanks and OB's where CCP suggested that there would be ways to pin tanks down for destruction by OB's. That suggests CCP considers the warning to be good enough for tanks to get out from under them if they are paying attention. That would put them in the "fair warning" to run away or get under cover category. We can debate whether or not that is true, and it probably depends upon just where you parked. I've personally seen a tank escape from Sniper's Peak by driving off the edge and falling down the mountain side, repping all the way down. It then drove around the back and up to continue its reign of terror. That's a bad example, that mountain messes with the spread of the OB. If you are lucky it will only hit you once. But again we are talking about luck trumping everything which is deeply wrong for a game IMO.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2013.02.14 20:24:00 - [40] - Quote Gabber Medic wrote: I feel that the OB works as is intended. Adding a longer wait time or a warning would make it less effective. It is supposed to be a game changing weapon that can destroy the opposition holding a particular point wether it is infantry or vehicles. if your tank is camping one area, just not moving enough, or your driver is too predictable it derserves to be blown to hell. you have to remember also, that many squads are using their one and only OB that match to destroy your equipment. so i think it works fine the way it is. there is not enough reason to change it. Adding a longer delay still clears the objective. Right now the time is 2 seconds. Tanks on the move are still susceptible. I have to laugh that you are comparing a squad using their "only" orbital that they get for free every match is balanced against the ability to instantly destroy several matches worth of assets.

Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2013.02.14 20:26:00 - [41] - Quote Skihids wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: Skihids wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: In a game, an element that you have no skill-based way to protect yourself from, is clearly broken. I recall discussion many weeks back about tanks and OB's where CCP suggested that there would be ways to pin tanks down for destruction by OB's. That suggests CCP considers the warning to be good enough for tanks to get out from under them if they are paying attention. That would put them in the "fair warning" to run away or get under cover category. We can debate whether or not that is true, and it probably depends upon just where you parked. I've personally seen a tank escape from Sniper's Peak by driving off the edge and falling down the mountain side, repping all the way down. It then drove around the back and up to continue its reign of terror. That's a bad example, that mountain messes with the spread of the OB. If you are lucky it will only hit you once. But again we are talking about luck trumping everything which is deeply wrong for a game IMO. It's a starting point in a discussion with CCP. If they want it to be fair warning then you start asking how much is required to get out of a reasonable situation. You then have to define a reasonable situation, and that gets into how much of an out you need leave yourself. From there it's a matter of calculating acceleration and velocity to determine how much time you require. The mountain in question is an extreme exception, and the only one as of right now. Also, in regards to that old discussion, it is clear that CCP did not want them to reach out and kill indiscriminately on the map. That is how they operate now. You do not need eyes on a target, you do not need a "tackle", you just point and kill.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2013.02.14 22:33:00 - [42] - Quote zeek1227 zeek1227 wrote: Ok noc so you say that the OB is insta win. In my opinion tanks are insta wins because if you know what you are doing you can pretty much make it impossible to kill with av and tank snipers in the red zone (not saying you do this) are nearly impossible to kill without the OB Tanks unlike OBs can only be accessed by those who chose to skill into them. So I make this possible solution to your problem What if OBs needed to be skilled into in order to use? It would stop some people from using them but not nerf them to the point where the tank driver can just drive on out without taking damage. Sorry for the raging earlier on I was very tired (hadnt slept in 2 days) I'm 100% on board with alternative solutions. On the idea of making them skill based - perhaps you have to aim the 7 shots individually from the warbarge somehow. As in you aim the cannon and pull the trigger? Sure it's an idea straight out of CoD, but CoD actually has evolved to give great balance to their kill streaks so I don't think that is a negative at all.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2013.02.14 22:46:00 - [43] - Quote Skihids wrote: To be more precise, the OB is not an "I win" button as much as it is a "This time you die" button. Unlike a HAV it is a one shot weapon with a substantial "cool-down". You can't go on a rampage with it. You can't call them in one after the other and decimate the other side. You first need to make significant progress in the match before you get one. You can't win with just OBs because you need to do a bunch of stuff to get one. The OB is the occasional completely unfair hammer strike from the heavens that will remove all uncovered enemy assets from a small part of the map. The only way to balance it is to introduce some sort of deployable shield. There are about 3 pieces of working cover between all the maps we have. Adding cover, either deployable or natural, would be a positive change.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2013.02.14 22:48:00 - [44] - Quote Icy Tiger wrote: Ok I have one alternative solution. You must buy OB ammo, 1 mil ISK each OB, however, the OB is buffed to a bit less than Tactical Hybrid from a destroyer. Pay ISK to destroy ISK. In the correct direction for balance. I would remove the WP requirement then and add a cooldown timer.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2013.02.14 23:00:00 - [45] - Quote zeek1227 zeek1227 wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: Icy Tiger wrote: Ok I have one alternative solution. You must buy OB ammo, 1 mil ISK each OB, however, the OB is buffed to a bit less than Tactical Hybrid from a destroyer. Pay ISK to destroy ISK. In the correct direction for balance. I would remove the WP requirement then and add a cooldown timer. No this would be abused as uber rich players could just split into single person squads and carpet bomb the map. If we would do an isk cost it would still need wp to avoid this It could be abused, which is why I think this is not enough. Instead of WPs, perhaps there should be non-null point objectives that can be captured to allow locking on to the district. Personally, I think the MCC should be providing the close support and there should be NO warbarge strikes. There needs to be a balanced way to call for support when you need it both with and without EVE support, as well as counterplay either through cover, special structures, or hard counters. Definitely glad everyone has cooled down for some serious discussion.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2013.02.14 23:16:00 - [46] - Quote zeek1227 zeek1227 wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: zeek1227 zeek1227 wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: Icy Tiger wrote: Ok I have one alternative solution. You must buy OB ammo, 1 mil ISK each OB, however, the OB is buffed to a bit less than Tactical Hybrid from a destroyer. Pay ISK to destroy ISK. In the correct direction for balance. I would remove the WP requirement then and add a cooldown timer. No this would be abused as uber rich players could just split into single person squads and carpet bomb the map. If we would do an isk cost it would still need wp to avoid this It could be abused, which is why I think this is not enough. Instead of WPs, perhaps there should be non-null point objectives that can be captured to allow locking on to the district. Personally, I think the MCC should be providing the close support and there should be NO warbarge strikes. There needs to be a balanced way to call for support when you need it both with and without EVE support, as well as counterplay either through cover, special structures, or hard counters. Definitely glad everyone has cooled down for some serious discussion. Not sure if this is what you mean but warbarge isn't eve ship its npc Atm and correct me if I'm wrong but firing one of those cannons in atmosphere would be very not good for everyone I'm just saying the close support could come from the MCC in the form of null cannons firing from the ship. This neatly gives them a range limit but also makes them available for countering pushes against the redline whenever. Orbitals truly need need their call in mechanic reworked from the ground up. There needs to be some sort of limit to avoid spamming everything to the stone age, but they also should be available when needed, not when awarded like a killstreak. What if, instead of the warbarge dropping an orbital at 2500 WP, it drops a small turret with a targeting module (small turrets like the skirmish 1.0 blasters)? Then you have to operate the turret and people can see where you could call in the strike to, as well as counter it with snipers or hackers. It could have a "heat bar" so it can only coordinate a strike once per minute until destroyed.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2013.02.14 23:20:00 - [47] - Quote Polish Hammer wrote: Noc, I like your idea of having to control a point of access for locking onto districts, but in pub matches i'm not sure that it would be fair to the random nubberries. I do like it though. I think it'd be a nice conflict point on Corp matches and future fights over districts. I gave a suggestion for a 2-stage call down I posted at the same time as this

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