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Avallo Kantor 1171	Posted - 2016.09.14 16:03:00 - [1] - Quote Taking a quote from CCP LogicLoop: CCP LogicLoop wrote: On the Nova Discord channel earlier today. [4:48 PM] CCP Rattati: just assuring that the Nova team absolutely working on improving what you saw at fanfest [4:48 PM] CCP Rattati: especially on the feedback we got [4:49 PM] CCP Rattati: "looks like good fps gameplay, NOW WHAT" [4:49 PM] CCP Rattati: "not eve enough" [4:49 PM] CCP Rattati: etc [4:49 PM] CCP Rattati: we have been working on the "essence" of the game if you will [4:50 PM] CCP Rattati: uniqueness and setting [4:50 PM] CCP Rattati: it wouldn't be a new eden fps if there wasn't So this brings up, in my mind, an interesting point of discussion that warrants its own thread. What feature or features distill the universe of New Eden into a tangible form for you? How can somebody make a game that feels like it belongs in that universe, and what components are core to it's setting. I think that is a topic we would have the best shot of answering, and hopefully bring insight to the devs who read the forum (or at least LogicLoop if nobody else) To that end, I feel New Eden is best defined by its sense of Consequences. By that I mean that choices you make in the game have a weight and importance to them that have meaningful impact down the road. This is done by having them affect all levels and types of play, from the minor details of skill application defining your character, to the larger politics of entities that affect the power balance of space. New Eden's history is, in my opinion, defined by player action and the consequences those actions carried. DUST was able to achieve this through a number of ways, from the skill point system, to the ISK cost of suits, to the tug of war between Faction Warfare and Planetary Conquest. When these features fell flat for the players was only when that sense of consequence and impact was disrupted or began to ring hollow. Such as when people had enough money to not care about it, or when the FW battles seemed arbitrary and had little impact on the greater war, or when Planetary Conquest felt it had no real benefits aside from the fights it generated. To that end, I feel that any game that wants to feel like it belongs in New Eden needs things that tie together individual play experiences to feel like they are impacting a greater whole. There needs to be player progression that involves choice, not just a static level that dictates what you have for you. There needs to be an ability for player's moment to moment gameplay affect some meta aspect of their experience that goes beyond simple statistics. DUST did this with consumable fittings that impacted the player after a match. Activities need to be in place for a group of players to impact larger aspects of the world in a way that has some degree of persistance. DUST tried to do this via FW and PCs. Players need a variety of ways to impact other players beyond simple combat mechanics. This can be done via trade, industry, politics, or any other activity that touches upon the play experience of other players outside of matches. The world / universe needs to feel as if players can impact it in some way. Some aspect of the world needs to be able to be changed by player action. Such as ownership of a system, availability of resources, or generation of missions. All of the general points I laid above help to create a setting that is more distinctly New Eden, even if it lacks some of the more familiar trappings of EVE or DUST. The important things about New Eden and the experience players seek from it lie in a perception (not necessarily a reality) that their actions can ripple through the universe and some consequence of their actions affects future events which can be limited to themselves, a few others, or the entire cluster. "Mind Blown" - CCP Rattati
LOL KILLZ LulKlz 1120	Posted - 2016.09.14 16:08:00 - [2] - Quote Giving us All racial variants of weapons and Dropsuits would be nice. 2) Having more modules like Eve does for your suit 3) All your points Dustkillz and chill
TooMany Names AlreadyTaken Going for the gold 2584	Posted - 2016.09.14 16:23:00 - [3] - Quote I think what makes it unique (at least to me) is the fact that it's set so far into the future, and everything is high-tech. I love future tech... And I guess I don't even have to mention what else. Life can suck, but... If there's catgirls... GÄ¥GùÑGû¦GÇ+GÇ+GùÇGùñGÄá it's good. GÄ¥GùÑGû¦GÇ+GÇ+GùÇGùñGÄá Still waiting for Nekopara vol.3 GÄ¥GùÑGû¦GÇ+GÇ+GùÇGùñGÄá
Avallo Kantor 1172	Posted - 2016.09.14 16:27:00 - [4] - Quote TooMany Names AlreadyTaken wrote: I think what makes it unique (at least to me) is the fact that it's set so far into the future, and everything is high-tech. I love future tech... And I guess I don't even have to mention what else. Going off of that, what makes the future tech of New Eden different from say... Star Trek, or Firefly, or the numerous other great Sci-Fi settings out there? What aspect of Technology makes it feel like it belongs in New Eden. Without going into another long paragraph, for me the key technology of New Eden is the Clone, and how it handles all the aspects of the Clone. "Mind Blown" - CCP Rattati
DUST Fiend 18610	Posted - 2016.09.14 16:50:00 - [5] - Quote I'm curious how people in New Eden can make Titans but not cars Lord of all things salty, purveyor of gloomish doom and naysayer extraordinaire. AV Incubus Specialist, Ex Prometheus
byte modal 970	Posted - 2016.09.14 16:59:00 - [6] - Quote Avallo Kantor wrote: snip To that end, I feel New Eden is best defined by its sense of Consequences. snip hrm... I used to think this very thing, and I loved EvE for it. Even if I drifted back and forth with subs, I always bragged about EvE-Online with my friends and it's death penalty. I loved that when you made a choice, you were stuck with it for good or bad. I loved training skills for equipment and efficiencies. If I decided to change tracks halfway in, well, then I just lost those skill points until I found a new need for them at some point. Earning skills, weaponry, ships, etc., was a sense of pride for me because I earned it. When I lost that equipment whether in PVE or PVP, it was an emotional loss because of the time spent earning it. I couldn't just run back to my body as a ghost and reclaim it all with just a repair penalty. That feeling has begun to die for me. A month or so back I spent money on PLEX and bought a few skill injectors. I was excited by the idea of finally capping one of my drone skills instead of waiting the remaining month or so. After it was done, I looked over my training history and had a strange sensation. I felt like a who-oar. All sense of earned pride and bragging rights for this or that suddenly vanished in the realization that nothing meant anything from that point forward. Drop some cash and here's a billion ISK. Not from a grind. Not from a calculated market long run. And not from a string of lucky encounters. Drop some more cash and you can instantly boost skill points. Meh. It was all just a single click away and it fulfilled nothing for me like losing my old Domi did years ago. I suppose consequences are still very much a part of whatever EvE has become. sigh. kitten bacon taco (nom)
Lightning35 Delta514 Federation Marines 62 5021	Posted - 2016.09.14 18:48:00 - [7] - Quote QUAFE does. CEO of Federation Marines 62 - Bravo Company Gallente - Freedom - Quafe - Gk.0s/Gv.0s - 72m SP
Mobius Wyvern Night Theifs Curatores Veritatis Alliance 8378	Posted - 2016.09.14 18:58:00 - [8] - Quote byte modal wrote: Avallo Kantor wrote: snip To that end, I feel New Eden is best defined by its sense of Consequences. snip hrm... I used to think this very thing, and I loved EvE for it. Even if I drifted back and forth with subs, I always bragged about EvE-Online with my friends and it's death penalty. I loved that when you made a choice, you were stuck with it for good or bad. I loved training skills for equipment and efficiencies. If I decided to change tracks halfway in, well, then I just lost those skill points until I found a new need for them at some point. Earning skills, weaponry, ships, etc., was a sense of pride for me because I earned it. When I lost that equipment whether in PVE or PVP, it was an emotional loss because of the time spent earning it. I couldn't just run back to my body as a ghost and reclaim it all with just a repair penalty. That feeling has begun to die for me. A month or so back I spent money on PLEX and bought a few skill injectors. I was excited by the idea of finally capping one of my drone skills instead of waiting the remaining month or so. After it was done, I looked over my training history and had a strange sensation. I felt like a who-oar. All sense of earned pride and bragging rights for this or that suddenly vanished in the realization that nothing meant anything from that point forward. Drop some cash and here's a billion ISK. Not from a grind. Not from a calculated market long run. And not from a string of lucky encounters. Drop some more cash and you can instantly boost skill points. Meh. It was all just a single click away and it fulfilled nothing for me like losing my old Domi did years ago. I suppose consequences are still very much a part of whatever EvE has become. sigh. I just don't understand the "leveling" obsession. Getting progression has never really been my primary motivator in EVE. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Avallo Kantor 1174	Posted - 2016.09.14 19:41:00 - [9] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: byte modal wrote: snip I just don't understand the "leveling" obsession. Getting progression has never really been my primary motivator in EVE. Then what parts of New Eden make it unique for you? "Mind Blown" - CCP Rattati
byte modal 972	Posted - 2016.09.14 19:44:00 - [10] - Quote It's a bit more than "leveling". For more than one player, choice and the consequences of that choice are important. EvE was a life sim of sorts. It was a place to login to avoid games where you could pay 10g for a spec reset and boom: everything starts over fresh making any choice up to that point ...pointless. In EvE, I had to frigate to cruiser to battleship, etc., hopefully learning the pros and cons of each along the way. If I made a mistake in my skill path, then I had to learn how to make use of what I had until I corrected my path. On the plus side, I never lost the ability to redirect my skills at any point along the way. I was never bound to one role or another. It was all forward and compounding gain that I couldn't find anywhere else. For me, that was unique. It's actually less about progression and more about decision-making and commitment. Also, I am not saying that is the end-all be-all of my attraction to EvE; however, it is something that made it stand out for me. Injectors water that aspect down considerably. My post was in reply to OP, and that's my humble opinion. That does not negate whatever other or additional enjoyment players may get out of it. Just mine, due to the principles that shape my opinions. EDIT Also: life is leveling. EvE felt more realistic as a result. For me, at least. YMMV. kitten bacon taco (nom)

Avallo Kantor 1175	Posted - 2016.09.14 20:14:00 - [11] - Quote byte modal wrote: It's a bit more than "leveling". If I might be able to expand on Byte's point, another powerful part of EVE, both its progression systems, and other aspects of the game is that it gives the world a sense of History. It is not just that the game has consequences to actions it is that they have a lasting impact that carries forward in a meaningful way. It comes in small things from the skill training history, to the larger Sov Map over time. New Eden's consequences mean so much because they contribute to a history of the game. Think on this, in New Eden you can go and look up a player's corp history of every corp they have been member to (for better or worse), that player can look up their own wallet transaction history back to a pretty significant point in time, and players can do the same for their skill training history, cert obtainment, etc. On a larger scale it is possible to track via various sources the ownership history of any single system in space back to it's origin. Which systems have been taken, lost, or conquered has left a record. The prices on minerals and other player products are also kept in historical data. All of these minor things help to contribute to a greater whole, that your impact on the world leaves a record, one that persists. Now look to other games, such as WoW, or Everquest, or SWTOR. They each have historical events as well, but they also have expansions and major content that, in effect, wipes the board clean. The sense of history to the world is lost because everyone gets to those markers in the normal course of gameplay. True, those games have rare items or achievements that document substantial events, but they do not impact the world in the same way that various historical events touch upon EvE. Another unique aspect of New Eden is that it has a history, one that is unique upon all the Sci-Fi genres, because it is a history of our own creation. Look to the ships one obtained ten years ago, the Domi, the Rifter, the Caracal. Those ships have not been turned into vendor trash by the march of expansions and resets, but still hold a place on the field today. EVE is a game that persists, and it is in that history that the consequences of thousands of players can be seen and felt. For a game to feel like New Eden, progression should not be a generic march from A to B, but a path that has options, with those options having "end game" impact the entire way. Much like how the frigate is still a valuable ship, 10+ years later. "Mind Blown" - CCP Rattati
Draxus Prime Nos Nothi 4962	Posted - 2016.09.15 01:49:00 - [12] - Quote Just to confirm Rattati saying "it wouldn't be a new eden fps if there wasn't" was in response to "Shiny LynnSensei - Today at 5:50 AM: As long as there's some semblance of fitting system i'll be fine" "Spilling floor cleaner only makes the floor cleaner." - Draxus Prime Closed Beta Vet Scout
General Vahzz 847	Posted - 2016.09.15 01:54:00 - [13] - Quote Draxus Prime wrote: Just to confirm Rattati saying "it wouldn't be a new eden fps if there wasn't" was in response to "Shiny LynnSensei - Today at 5:50 AM: As long as there's some semblance of fitting system i'll be fine" It'll never happen. Rat man is too smart with his thousand yard stare. The Original Bastard. Anything is possible given enough time, i should know.
TooMany Names AlreadyTaken Going for the gold 2585	Posted - 2016.09.15 07:10:00 - [14] - Quote Avallo Kantor wrote: TooMany Names AlreadyTaken wrote: I think what makes it unique (at least to me) is the fact that it's set so far into the future, and everything is high-tech. I love future tech... And I guess I don't even have to mention what else. Going off of that, what makes the future tech of New Eden different from say... Star Trek, or Firefly, or the numerous other great Sci-Fi settings out there? What aspect of Technology makes it feel like it belongs in New Eden? I'd have to say it's the weapons arsenal. Life can suck, but... If there's catgirls... GÄ¥GùÑGû¦GÇ+GÇ+GùÇGùñGÄá it's good. GÄ¥GùÑGû¦GÇ+GÇ+GùÇGùñGÄá Still waiting for Nekopara vol.3 GÄ¥GùÑGû¦GÇ+GÇ+GùÇGùñGÄá

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 27702	Posted - 2016.09.15 08:29:00 - [15] - Quote - ETERNAL, death is just a means to an end, persistent character progression through the infomorph and clone interaction - EPIC, and the world does not revolve around you, you are a tiny forgettable speck - dystopian galaxy at PERPETUAL WAR - REAL, endless character, lore and backstory, names have a meaning, references are real - SELF, ownership, you own your stuff, your story, your progression, collective ownership and achievements - CHOICES, again progression, friends, foes, factions, allegiance, playstyle, strategy, tactics "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

james selim brownstein NECROM0NGERS 603	Posted - 2016.09.15 08:48:00 - [16] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: - ETERNAL, death is just a means to an end, persistent character progression through the infomorph and clone interaction - EPIC, and the world does not revolve around you, you are a tiny forgettable speck - dystopian galaxy at PERPETUAL WAR - REAL, endless character, lore and backstory, names have a meaning, references are real - SELF, ownership, you own your stuff, your story, your progression, collective ownership and achievements - CHOICES, again progression, friends, foes, factions, allegiance, playstyle, strategy, tactics DADDY! HERE, Gives Daddy Cheeseburger Also, FIRST! n++Gòª¦¦¦¦-ç¦+¦+¦+¦+ WAITING FOR PROJECT NOVAGòñGöÇGöÇGöÇ Gò¡Gê¬Gò«n+ên+¦n++n+¦n+ë
Echo 1991 warravens Imperium Eden 1268	Posted - 2016.09.15 08:50:00 - [17] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: - ETERNAL, death is just a means to an end, persistent character progression through the infomorph and clone interaction - EPIC, and the world does not revolve around you, you are a tiny forgettable speck - dystopian galaxy at PERPETUAL WAR - REAL, endless character, lore and backstory, names have a meaning, references are real - SELF, ownership, you own your stuff, your story, your progression, collective ownership and achievements - CHOICES, again progression, friends, foes, factions, allegiance, playstyle, strategy, tactics I just want that ion pistol skill to lower God damn powergrid and not CPU D: But in all seriousness, if that all gets done well on top of the game itself being good, it's gonna be great. Change the Ion Pistol Fitting Skill Pls. #PortDust514 'Echo is a dirty hooker' - UnclS2
james selim brownstein NECROM0NGERS 603	Posted - 2016.09.15 09:47:00 - [18] - Quote @Rattati - Will we be getting any BPO's from Dust in Nova? I really want my C3P0 Logi (Shaman) back n++Gòª¦¦¦¦-ç¦+¦+¦+¦+ WAITING FOR PROJECT NOVAGòñGöÇGöÇGöÇ Gò¡Gê¬Gò«n+ên+¦n++n+¦n+ë
Lightning35 Delta514 Federation Marines 62 5021	Posted - 2016.09.15 10:16:00 - [19] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: - ETERNAL, death is just a means to an end, persistent character progression through the infomorph and clone interaction - EPIC, and the world does not revolve around you, you are a tiny forgettable speck - dystopian galaxy at PERPETUAL WAR - REAL, endless character, lore and backstory, names have a meaning, references are real - SELF, ownership, you own your stuff, your story, your progression, collective ownership and achievements - CHOICES, again progression, friends, foes, factions, allegiance, playstyle, strategy, tactics - QUAFE, purple life giving substance, delicious and bubbly, also available in green. FTFY CEO of Federation Marines 62 - Bravo Company Gallente - Freedom - Quafe - Gk.0s/Gv.0s - 72m SP
Living Rock 523 Intara Direct Action Caldari State 282	Posted - 2016.09.15 10:43:00 - [20] - Quote Avallo Kantor wrote: To that end, I feel that any game that wants to feel like it belongs in New Eden needs things that tie together individual play experiences to feel like they are impacting a greater whole. There needs to be player progression that involves choice, not just a static level that dictates what you have for you. There needs to be an ability for player's moment to moment gameplay affect some meta aspect of their experience that goes beyond simple statistics. DUST did this with consumable fittings that impacted the player after a match. Activities need to be in place for a group of players to impact larger aspects of the world in a way that has some degree of persistance. DUST tried to do this via FW and PCs. Players need a variety of ways to impact other players beyond simple combat mechanics. This can be done via trade, industry, politics, or any other activity that touches upon the play experience of other players outside of matches. The world / universe needs to feel as if players can impact it in some way. Some aspect of the world needs to be able to be changed by player action. Such as ownership of a system, availability of resources, or generation of missions. To add to this list, I would say some attention needs to be given to the Capsuleers and what all is in it for them in terms of interacting with a FPS universe. I'm not completely knowledgeable on the EVE side of the topic, but while the concept of boots on the ground giving your corp/alliance/team a leg up in galactic warfare is awesome and totally worth pursuing, it seems to me that individual capsuleers don't see much of a benefit/reward at all. Definitely not directly or immediately. Am I correct that the only direct reward for a capsuleer was a kill mail? I think it would be wise for CCP to attempt to engage individual EVE players in regards to EVE/Nova interaction.

Shamarskii Simon The Hundred Acre Hood 1020	Posted - 2016.09.15 12:15:00 - [21] - Quote Lightning35 Delta514 wrote: QUAFE does. But STARSI does better. Potential Pilot Proposal? Yes!
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game Preatoriani 2303	Posted - 2016.09.15 12:16:00 - [22] - Quote I think the attention to realism is an important aspect. I like that respawning was explained by clone technology. I like that the equipment in game has a solid, understated, scifi feel. Things feel powerful and futuristic without seeming over the top and unrealistic.
Alena Asakura Rogue Clones Yulai Federation 1178	Posted - 2016.09.15 12:34:00 - [23] - Quote byte modal wrote: Avallo Kantor wrote: snip To that end, I feel New Eden is best defined by its sense of Consequences. snip hrm... I used to think this very thing, and I loved EvE for it. Even if I drifted back and forth with subs, I always bragged about EvE-Online with my friends and it's death penalty. I loved that when you made a choice, you were stuck with it for good or bad. I loved training skills for equipment and efficiencies. If I decided to change tracks halfway in, well, then I just lost those skill points until I found a new need for them at some point. Earning skills, weaponry, ships, etc., was a sense of pride for me because I earned it. When I lost that equipment whether in PVE or PVP, it was an emotional loss because of the time spent earning it. I couldn't just run back to my body as a ghost and reclaim it all with just a repair penalty. That feeling has begun to die for me. A month or so back I spent money on PLEX and bought a few skill injectors. I was excited by the idea of finally capping one of my drone skills instead of waiting the remaining month or so. After it was done, I looked over my training history and had a strange sensation. I felt like a who-oar. All sense of earned pride and bragging rights for this or that suddenly vanished in the realization that nothing meant anything from that point forward. Drop some cash and here's a billion ISK. Not from a grind. Not from a calculated market long run. And not from a string of lucky encounters. Drop some more cash and you can instantly boost skill points. Meh. It was all just a single click away and it fulfilled nothing for me like losing my old Domi did years ago. I suppose consequences are still very much a part of whatever EvE has become. sigh. Yes. Ultimately, even EvE has become pay-to-win.
TooMany Names AlreadyTaken Going for the gold 2586	Posted - 2016.09.15 12:37:00 - [24] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: names have a meaning Wait 'til you see what name I will be using in Nova. ( -í-¦ -£-û -í-¦) Life can suck, but... If there's catgirls... GÄ¥GùÑGû¦GÇ+GÇ+GùÇGùñGÄá it's good. GÄ¥GùÑGû¦GÇ+GÇ+GùÇGùñGÄá Still waiting for Nekopara vol.3 GÄ¥GùÑGû¦GÇ+GÇ+GùÇGùñGÄá
Alena Asakura Rogue Clones Yulai Federation 1178	Posted - 2016.09.15 12:52:00 - [25] - Quote byte modal wrote: It's a bit more than "leveling". For more than one player, choice and the consequences of that choice are important. EvE was a life sim of sorts. It was a place to login to avoid games where you could pay 10g for a spec reset and boom: everything starts over fresh making any choice up to that point ...pointless. In EvE, I had to frigate to cruiser to battleship, etc., hopefully learning the pros and cons of each along the way. If I made a mistake in my skill path, then I had to learn how to make use of what I had until I corrected my path. On the plus side, I never lost the ability to redirect my skills at any point along the way. I was never bound to one role or another. It was all forward and compounding gain that I couldn't find anywhere else. For me, that was unique. It's actually less about progression and more about decision-making and commitment. Also, I am not saying that is the end-all be-all of my attraction to EvE; however, it is something that made it stand out for me. Injectors water that aspect down considerably. My post was in reply to OP, and that's my humble opinion. That does not negate whatever other or additional enjoyment players may get out of it. Just mine, due to the principles that shape my opinions. EDIT Also: life is leveling. EvE felt more realistic as a result. For me, at least. YMMV. The problem with EvE is that it is slowly being turned into just another game that you can pay to get whatever you want. There's no requirement anymore to go through the whole skill training thing that made the experience of training worthwhile. This is one of the things that so many of the long liners are complaining about - they trained for years and years to get where they are and now suddenly, people can just buy the skills they need for ISK, which itself is easy enough to get from selling PLEXes. PLEXing used to be a very maligned practice. Now it's practically the primary way to do anything fast in the game, and since for most people they just want things fast, the logic follows that PLEXing is becoming a primary source of in game money. No wonder the long liners complain so vehemently.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 7845	Posted - 2016.09.15 13:07:00 - [26] - Quote Avallo Kantor wrote: TooMany Names AlreadyTaken wrote: I think what makes it unique (at least to me) is the fact that it's set so far into the future, and everything is high-tech. I love future tech... And I guess I don't even have to mention what else. Going off of that, what makes the future tech of New Eden different from say... Star Trek, or Firefly, or the numerous other great Sci-Fi settings out there? What aspect of Technology makes it feel like it belongs in New Eden. Without going into another long paragraph, for me the key technology of New Eden is the Clone, and how it handles all the aspects of the Clone. Let's not forget the dark ages after the EVE Gate closed and most planets lost their technology because they did not have the infrastructure to maintain it. In New Eden you have four factions that independently clawed their way back into space. (Well, Caldari and Gallente were not completely independent in their development as they were both in the same system and could communicate.) This results if four different technological development tracks, and even when they share/steal technology from another faction they have their own take on it. Then of course you have that fifth faction that never lost their hold on space but became extremely eccentric. (Didn't clone tech come from them?) I like that in New Eden you can usually tell which faction designed a piece of tech by just looking at it. They have such distinctive styles of design and architecture, as well as completely different social structures. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 14185	Posted - 2016.09.15 13:25:00 - [27] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: - ETERNAL, death is just a means to an end, persistent character progression through the infomorph and clone interaction Extremely interested to see how progression will work in project nova. Are you still planning on SP only being earned when you actually use a weapon, equipment, or dropsuit? My advice to you, playa.
Mobius Wyvern Night Theifs Curatores Veritatis Alliance 8381	Posted - 2016.09.15 14:08:00 - [28] - Quote james selim brownstein wrote: @Rattati - Will we be getting any BPO's from Dust in Nova? I really want my C3P0 Logi (Shaman) back HELL no. I hope to whatever god there is that Nova never has BPOs like Dust. There should never be any escape from risk or loss. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Mobius Wyvern Night Theifs Curatores Veritatis Alliance 8381	Posted - 2016.09.15 14:16:00 - [29] - Quote Alena Asakura wrote: byte modal wrote: It's a bit more than "leveling". For more than one player, choice and the consequences of that choice are important. EvE was a life sim of sorts. It was a place to login to avoid games where you could pay 10g for a spec reset and boom: everything starts over fresh making any choice up to that point ...pointless. In EvE, I had to frigate to cruiser to battleship, etc., hopefully learning the pros and cons of each along the way. If I made a mistake in my skill path, then I had to learn how to make use of what I had until I corrected my path. On the plus side, I never lost the ability to redirect my skills at any point along the way. I was never bound to one role or another. It was all forward and compounding gain that I couldn't find anywhere else. For me, that was unique. It's actually less about progression and more about decision-making and commitment. Also, I am not saying that is the end-all be-all of my attraction to EvE; however, it is something that made it stand out for me. Injectors water that aspect down considerably. My post was in reply to OP, and that's my humble opinion. That does not negate whatever other or additional enjoyment players may get out of it. Just mine, due to the principles that shape my opinions. EDIT Also: life is leveling. EvE felt more realistic as a result. For me, at least. YMMV. The problem with EvE is that it is slowly being turned into just another game that you can pay to get whatever you want. There's no requirement anymore to go through the whole skill training thing that made the experience of training worthwhile. This is one of the things that so many of the long liners are complaining about - they trained for years and years to get where they are and now suddenly, people can just buy the skills they need for ISK, which itself is easy enough to get from selling PLEXes. PLEXing used to be a very maligned practice. Now it's practically the primary way to do anything fast in the game, and since for most people they just want things fast, the logic follows that PLEXing is becoming a primary source of in game money. No wonder the long liners complain so vehemently. Seriously? With all the popular stories of people "buying win" and then getting facerolled by ships nowhere near their cost people STILL won't drop the pay-to-win ****? You can't buy win in EVE Online. I've seen dozens of people in my 8 years in EVE playing on characters with crazy SP counts that they bought off the character bazaar. They've all been childishly easy to take down. In the most infamous story of them all, a lawyer dumped $3300 dollars on PLEX and only got a humiliating lossmail and yet another Goonswarm scam story for his trouble. Even in non-combat professions you're just going to get creamed by people with experience. If you don't have years of practice to draw from you are going to be easy fodder for people who do whether in PvP, marketing, industry, or even exploration. There's just no contest. EVE is not a level-based MMO. Your SP and ISO have no bearing on how good you are at managing your ship and making informed decisions. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Lightning35 Delta514 Federation Marines 62 5023	Posted - 2016.09.15 14:16:00 - [30] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: james selim brownstein wrote: @Rattati - Will we be getting any BPO's from Dust in Nova? I really want my C3P0 Logi (Shaman) back HELL no. I hope to whatever god there is that Nova never has BPOs like Dust. There should never be any escape from risk or loss. We need Quafe CEO of Federation Marines 62 - Bravo Company Gallente - Freedom - Quafe - Gk.0s/Gv.0s - 72m SP

Mobius Wyvern Night Theifs Curatores Veritatis Alliance 8381	Posted - 2016.09.15 14:40:00 - [31] - Quote Lightning35 Delta514 wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: james selim brownstein wrote: @Rattati - Will we be getting any BPO's from Dust in Nova? I really want my C3P0 Logi (Shaman) back HELL no. I hope to whatever god there is that Nova never has BPOs like Dust. There should never be any escape from risk or loss. We need Quafe As a paintjob, not an unlimited-use asset. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon 5378	Posted - 2016.09.15 14:50:00 - [32] - Quote james selim brownstein wrote: @Rattati - Will we be getting any BPO's from Dust in Nova? I really want my C3P0 Logi (Shaman) back I can be your logi, but just once... Regressed to blueberry level =ƒÿ» #PortDaPort on Consoles PSN: ogamega
byte modal 975	Posted - 2016.09.15 15:16:00 - [33] - Quote To draw a line, I do not believe it's P2W. For me at least, that's not the issue. As you said: without the skill and knowledge gained from experience in playing the game, those skipping in line will be destroyed. That right there is at the heart of my point. I've gained experience through the grind, or "leveling" as you put it. That experience carries with it a sense of pride and history. EvE has history. It's persistent. That spirit has always been what attracted me. Training skills does not prevent me from enjoying the game. It just opens doors to new or more efficient ways of enjoyment; however, the knowledge comes through the wait. The wait also creates anticipation. When it's over, it's a genuine sense of accomplishment that will stay with me throughout my EvE game---and all the in-game experience that has accumulated as a result. Not anymore. That is why EvE no longer has the attraction for me that it once did. It's not up to you to argue that my principles are wrong. It's absolutely irrelevant that you don't understand. If you enjoy things as they are, then by all means enjoy it. I am not going to rock the boat. I'll just eventually stop playing if other elements of the game can't pick up the slack for me. I'm pretty sure I've drifted far off topic. Sorry OP! kitten bacon taco (nom)
Mobius Wyvern Night Theifs Curatores Veritatis Alliance 8385	Posted - 2016.09.15 15:25:00 - [34] - Quote byte modal wrote: To draw a line, I do not believe it's P2W. For me at least, that's not the issue. As you said: without the skill and knowledge gained from experience in playing the game, those skipping in line will be destroyed. That right there is at the heart of my point. I've gained experience through the grind, or "leveling" as you put it. That experience carries with it a sense of pride and history. EvE has history. It's persistent. That spirit has always been what attracted me. The permanence of skill histories is (was?) a small reflection of that persistent universe---my own small reflection as a spec in that great universe. Training skills does not prevent me from enjoying the game. It just opens doors to new or more efficient ways of enjoyment; however, the knowledge comes through the wait. The wait also creates anticipation. When it's over, it's a genuine sense of accomplishment that will stay with me throughout my EvE game---and all the in-game experience that has accumulated as a result. Not anymore. That is why EvE no longer has the attraction for me that it once did. It's not up to you to argue that my principles are wrong. It's absolutely irrelevant that you don't understand. If you enjoy things as they are, then by all means enjoy it. I am not going to rock the boat. I'll just eventually stop playing if other elements of the game can't pick up the slack for me. I'm pretty sure I've drifted far off topic. Sorry OP! My statement was exactly what I made it to be: that I didn't understand that mindset. You explained it, so now I have a better understanding of it. For me the attraction of New Eden has always been not only the consequences but the fact that revenge is always available, even if what wronged you was the most powerful group of players in the game. **, look at World War Bee. Imperium was wiped off the ***** map for a while because too many people wanted revenge against them. The quest for revenge tends to make the best stories and present the most fun. Hunting down your adversary and destroying them is this visceral feeling almost like being a predator, and it's always been one of my favorite parts of the game. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
byte modal 978	Posted - 2016.09.15 15:40:00 - [35] - Quote Fair enough ;) Then my apologies for misreading and for my reaction under that assumption. =^.^= kitten bacon taco (nom)
Avallo Kantor 1177	Posted - 2016.09.15 15:41:00 - [36] - Quote byte modal wrote: I'm pretty sure I've drifted far off topic. Sorry OP! Not at all! What is -not- the feeling of New Eden is just as important as the feeling of the game. You wrote an amazing paragraph on the parts of New Eden that make / made EVE an important experience to you, and I very much enjoyed reading it. "Mind Blown" - CCP Rattati
byte modal 978	Posted - 2016.09.15 15:45:00 - [37] - Quote Avallo Kantor wrote: byte modal wrote: I'm pretty sure I've drifted far off topic. Sorry OP! Not at all! What is -not- the feeling of New Eden is just as important as the feeling of the game. You wrote an amazing paragraph on the parts of New Eden that make / made EVE an important experience to you, and I very much enjoyed reading it. Awe, shucks... curtsies kitten bacon taco (nom)
LOL KILLZ LulKlz 1121	Posted - 2016.09.15 16:26:00 - [38] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: Lightning35 Delta514 wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: james selim brownstein wrote: @Rattati - Will we be getting any BPO's from Dust in Nova? I really want my C3P0 Logi (Shaman) back HELL no. I hope to whatever god there is that Nova never has BPOs like Dust. There should never be any escape from risk or loss. We need Quafe As a paintjob, not an unlimited-use asset. BPO was awesome!!! I want my suits back Dustkillz and chill
Mobius Wyvern Night Theifs Curatores Veritatis Alliance 8388	Posted - 2016.09.15 18:21:00 - [39] - Quote LOL KILLZ wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: Lightning35 Delta514 wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: james selim brownstein wrote: @Rattati - Will we be getting any BPO's from Dust in Nova? I really want my C3P0 Logi (Shaman) back HELL no. I hope to whatever god there is that Nova never has BPOs like Dust. There should never be any escape from risk or loss. We need Quafe As a paintjob, not an unlimited-use asset. BPO was awesome!!! I want my suits back No, they were terrible! They basically became required to be competetive in Dust because they were the best way to make money. You should NEVER under ANY circumstances have magically unlimited gear that exempts you from suffering loss. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
DUST Fiend 18613	Posted - 2016.09.15 18:41:00 - [40] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: - REAL, endless character, names have a meaning Name transfer confirmed? O.o Lord of all things salty, purveyor of gloomish doom and naysayer extraordinaire. AV Incubus Specialist, Ex Prometheus

Living Rock 523 Intara Direct Action Caldari State 285	Posted - 2016.09.15 18:45:00 - [41] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: they were the best way to make money Not true, farming alt accounts was the best way to make money (aside from any PC tomfoolery). 1 hour= 11 million ISK If you were hardcore about it you could do it twice a day, 2 hours= 22 million ISK Edit- <<<<<----- This guy right here is actually one of the few remaining ISK farm accounts I have left.
DUST Fiend 18614	Posted - 2016.09.15 18:49:00 - [42] - Quote Living Rock 523 wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: they were the best way to make money Not true, farming alt accounts was the best way to make money (aside from any PC tomfoolery). 1 hour= 11 million ISK If you were hardcore about it you could do it twice a day, 2 hours= 22 million ISK You know I always refused to do that thinking that CCP would surely ban those accounts. Jokes on me Lord of all things salty, purveyor of gloomish doom and naysayer extraordinaire. AV Incubus Specialist, Ex Prometheus
byte modal 979	Posted - 2016.09.15 18:53:00 - [43] - Quote Heh, yeah =\ Still sometimes amazes me what all was overlooked regarding bugs and cheat access. kitten bacon taco (nom)
Living Rock 523 Intara Direct Action Caldari State 285	Posted - 2016.09.15 18:55:00 - [44] - Quote Lol yea that's what I thought at first also. I would donate each clones startup ISK to the Corp and have the Corp reimburse me. After a while I stopped caring, but I still sent individual payments to a single clone, then sent it all to my main.
Living Rock 523 Intara Direct Action Caldari State 285	Posted - 2016.09.15 18:58:00 - [45] - Quote Hell CCP knew about it lol. I emailed them to ask if it was cool if I had multiple accounts on my system (so my friend could play as well ;) ). They said no problem. Of course I didn't bring up the money laundering. I'm sure they put 2 and 2 together, but obviously they didn't care. Though at that point Dust was already done for, though the player base didn't know yet. It was somewhere between October/December 2013.
Random Greenberry Intara Direct Action Caldari State 10	Posted - 2016.09.15 19:35:00 - [46] - Quote Jara's Sexy Ass. Hnnnng Darth's secret waifu. I love cream and pies.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 13198	Posted - 2016.09.15 19:42:00 - [47] - Quote Stealing ISK from hopeful people who wanted to break into Planetary conquest... mmmm, good times. Yes, I am a Goon. No, I don't care about your spacepolitik.
Nomed Deeps The Exemplars 553	Posted - 2016.09.15 20:02:00 - [48] - Quote Along with what has been discussed above... - Player trading/selling. - Making factions matter; be it FW, lore, character bonuses, or all the above. - Character visual modification instead of a plain jane mask everyone in my faction has. Show who is under the helmet like in EVE. Bio may also be optionable. - Possibly have social areas where character modifications can be showed off. - Player made corps and all the options that go with it. Worry about alliances later. - Also, make NPC corps charge tax rate to encourage players to seek player corps instead of just trying to escape tax rate. - In game player bounties and player corp war declarations. Not sure how to make it work in a FPS but am not a CCP designer either. I could come up with something though if pushed. I cannot be bought, but I can be leased.
Sylwester Dziewiecki Interregnum. 575	Posted - 2016.09.15 20:22:00 - [49] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: Alena Asakura wrote: byte modal wrote: It's a bit more than "leveling". For more than one player, choice and the consequences of that choice are important. EvE was a life sim of sorts. It was a place to login to avoid games where you could pay 10g for a spec reset and boom: everything starts over fresh making any choice up to that point ...pointless. In EvE, I had to frigate to cruiser to battleship, etc., hopefully learning the pros and cons of each along the way. If I made a mistake in my skill path, then I had to learn how to make use of what I had until I corrected my path. On the plus side, I never lost the ability to redirect my skills at any point along the way. I was never bound to one role or another. It was all forward and compounding gain that I couldn't find anywhere else. For me, that was unique. It's actually less about progression and more about decision-making and commitment. Also, I am not saying that is the end-all be-all of my attraction to EvE; however, it is something that made it stand out for me. Injectors water that aspect down considerably. My post was in reply to OP, and that's my humble opinion. That does not negate whatever other or additional enjoyment players may get out of it. Just mine, due to the principles that shape my opinions. EDIT Also: life is leveling. EvE felt more realistic as a result. For me, at least. YMMV. The problem with EvE is that it is slowly being turned into just another game that you can pay to get whatever you want. There's no requirement anymore to go through the whole skill training thing that made the experience of training worthwhile. This is one of the things that so many of the long liners are complaining about - they trained for years and years to get where they are and now suddenly, people can just buy the skills they need for ISK, which itself is easy enough to get from selling PLEXes. PLEXing used to be a very maligned practice. Now it's practically the primary way to do anything fast in the game, and since for most people they just want things fast, the logic follows that PLEXing is becoming a primary source of in game money. No wonder the long liners complain so vehemently. Seriously? With all the popular stories of people "buying win" and then getting facerolled by ships nowhere near their cost people STILL won't drop the pay-to-win **? You can't buy win in EVE Online. I've seen dozens of people in my 8 years in EVE playing on characters with crazy SP counts that they bought off the character bazaar. They've all been childishly easy to take down. In the most infamous story of them all, a lawyer dumped $3300 dollars on PLEX and only got a humiliating lossmail and yet another Goonswarm scam story for his trouble. Even in non-combat professions you're just going to get creamed by people with experience. If you don't have years of practice to draw from you are going to be easy fodder for people who do whether in PvP, marketing, industry, or even exploration. There's just no contest. EVE is not a level-based MMO. Your SP and ISO have no bearing on how good you are at managing your ship and making informed decisions. I like when someone is defending 'this game is not p2w game', there is so much spirit in it. So, you saying that if someone is able to buy 50-75kk SP character, or one with all SP and then train on it for 6-8 months without worrying that he gone run out of ISK(ever) is somehow at worst position**, then someone that was training his character from being and many times struggled to get ISK for basic fittings? Let's be honest. You do not know about peoples that were successful with they $ investment in to the game if they did not fail at some point, and became "a lawyer dumped $3300 dollars on PLEX and only got a humiliating lossmail" kind of story. There is a saying which has a lot of truth I think "the rich people do not like the company", meaning that if someone is successful at what he is doing, he will not betray tactics of it, or talk about it openly, otherwise he will have competition. Side story: Once my old corporation meet some oligarch from Moscow in one of Esoteria systems; he was renting it from C0ven. The thing is that one guy being able to renting entire system just for himself was already impressive. So what he was doing with it was even more impressive, unimaginably impressive - the guy was producing titans - he had something like 5 of them at the stock. He was managing entire corporation of alts by himself, to fly titans, to do research, component production, everything except mining. But he gave this job to some Romanian locals that were even delivering them to him(nice guys). Once asked why is he doing all of it, I think he responded that he likes the game, and building titans is cool, or some sort of this. The moral of this one is that guy living at the corner of galaxy, a life we all know from producing frigs at early stages of our days in Eve, but doing stuff that everyone wish to do at they end-game had some pleasant time playing Eve. Did he spend some $ on his dream, yes he did, so can we say that at some point he pay to win Eve? This is Skirmish v1.0
james selim brownstein NECROM0NGERS 605	Posted - 2016.09.15 20:39:00 - [50] - Quote shaman oga wrote: james selim brownstein wrote: @Rattati - Will we be getting any BPO's from Dust in Nova? I really want my C3P0 Logi (Shaman) back I can be your logi, but just once... lmao n++Gòª¦¦¦¦-ç¦+¦+¦+¦+ WAITING FOR PROJECT NOVAGòñGöÇGöÇGöÇ Gò¡Gê¬Gò«n+ên+¦n++n+¦n+ë

Living Rock 523 Intara Direct Action Caldari State 286	Posted - 2016.09.15 20:49:00 - [51] - Quote Living Rock 523 wrote: 1 hour= 11 million ISK That might be wrong, how much ISK did a new clone start with in 2013?
Nomed Deeps The Exemplars 553	Posted - 2016.09.15 21:02:00 - [52] - Quote Living Rock 523 wrote: Living Rock 523 wrote: 1 hour= 11 million ISK That might be wrong, how much ISK did a new clone start with in 2013? Last I remember, clones started with 50k ISK. Not sure how much in 2013; maybe 500k but that is just a guess. I cannot be bought, but I can be leased.
Mobius Wyvern Night Theifs Curatores Veritatis Alliance 8390	Posted - 2016.09.15 21:11:00 - [53] - Quote Sylwester Dziewiecki wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: Alena Asakura wrote: byte modal wrote: It's a bit more than "leveling". For more than one player, choice and the consequences of that choice are important. EvE was a life sim of sorts. It was a place to login to avoid games where you could pay 10g for a spec reset and boom: everything starts over fresh making any choice up to that point ...pointless. In EvE, I had to frigate to cruiser to battleship, etc., hopefully learning the pros and cons of each along the way. If I made a mistake in my skill path, then I had to learn how to make use of what I had until I corrected my path. On the plus side, I never lost the ability to redirect my skills at any point along the way. I was never bound to one role or another. It was all forward and compounding gain that I couldn't find anywhere else. For me, that was unique. It's actually less about progression and more about decision-making and commitment. Also, I am not saying that is the end-all be-all of my attraction to EvE; however, it is something that made it stand out for me. Injectors water that aspect down considerably. My post was in reply to OP, and that's my humble opinion. That does not negate whatever other or additional enjoyment players may get out of it. Just mine, due to the principles that shape my opinions. EDIT Also: life is leveling. EvE felt more realistic as a result. For me, at least. YMMV. The problem with EvE is that it is slowly being turned into just another game that you can pay to get whatever you want. There's no requirement anymore to go through the whole skill training thing that made the experience of training worthwhile. This is one of the things that so many of the long liners are complaining about - they trained for years and years to get where they are and now suddenly, people can just buy the skills they need for ISK, which itself is easy enough to get from selling PLEXes. PLEXing used to be a very maligned practice. Now it's practically the primary way to do anything fast in the game, and since for most people they just want things fast, the logic follows that PLEXing is becoming a primary source of in game money. No wonder the long liners complain so vehemently. Seriously? With all the popular stories of people "buying win" and then getting facerolled by ships nowhere near their cost people STILL won't drop the pay-to-win **? You can't buy win in EVE Online. I've seen dozens of people in my 8 years in EVE playing on characters with crazy SP counts that they bought off the character bazaar. They've all been childishly easy to take down. In the most infamous story of them all, a lawyer dumped $3300 dollars on PLEX and only got a humiliating lossmail and yet another Goonswarm scam story for his trouble. Even in non-combat professions you're just going to get creamed by people with experience. If you don't have years of practice to draw from you are going to be easy fodder for people who do whether in PvP, marketing, industry, or even exploration. There's just no contest. EVE is not a level-based MMO. Your SP and ISO have no bearing on how good you are at managing your ship and making informed decisions. I like when someone is defending 'this game is not p2w game', there is so much spirit in it. So, you saying that if someone is able to buy 50-75kk SP character, or one with all SP and then train on it for 6-8 months without worrying that he gone run out of ISK(ever) is somehow at worst position**, then someone that was training his character from being and many times struggled to get ISK for basic fittings? Let's be honest. You do not know about peoples that were successful with they $ investment in to the game if they did not fail at some point, and became "a lawyer dumped $3300 dollars on PLEX and only got a humiliating lossmail" kind of story. There is a saying which has a lot of truth I think "the rich people do not like the company", meaning that if someone is successful at what he is doing, he will not betray tactics of it, or talk about it openly, otherwise he will have competition. Side story: Once my old corporation meet some oligarch from Moscow in one of Esoteria systems; he was renting it from C0ven. The thing is that one guy being able to renting entire system just for himself was already impressive. So what he was doing with it was even more impressive, unimaginably impressive - the guy was producing titans - he had something like 5 of them at the stock. He was managing entire corporation of alts by himself, to fly titans, to do research, component production, everything except mining. But he gave this job to some Romanian locals that were even delivering them to him(nice guys). Once asked why is he doing all of it, I think he responded that he likes the game, and building titans is cool, or some sort of this. The moral of this one is that guy living at the corner of galaxy, a life we all know from producing frigs at early stages of our days in Eve, but doing stuff that everyone wish to do at they end-game had some pleasant time playing Eve. Did he spend some $ on his dream, yes he did, so can we say that at some point he pay to win Eve? You really think he's competing with full-time industrial moguls? Yeah, he's doing what he loves with real money, but he's hardly dominating the economy or anything. I've bought multiple Game Time Codes in the past and used them to set up ships that probably got me more than one kill against people who earned all the ISK for their fittings in-game. However in more of those cases I've lost those ships to people with more experience than me. What I'm saying is the issue isn't as black-and-white as many people argue it is. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Living Rock 523 Intara Direct Action Caldari State 286	Posted - 2016.09.15 21:22:00 - [54] - Quote I think it was 250k. If so the 11 mil stands.
LOL KILLZ LulKlz 1122	Posted - 2016.09.15 21:56:00 - [55] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: LOL KILLZ wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: [quote=james selim brownstein]@Rattati - Will we be getting any BPO's from Dust in Nova? I really want my C3P0 Logi (Shaman) back HELL no. I hope to whatever god there is that Nova never has BPOs like Dust. There should never be any escape from risk or loss. BPO was awesome!!! I want my suits back No, they were terrible! They basically became required to be competetive in Dust because they were the best way to make money. You should NEVER under ANY circumstances have magically unlimited gear that exempts you from suffering loss. The new game WILL have stompers. BPOs will be necessary to help mitigate your loses from the Big Corps that will have better communication, better players, better funds, etc. If you ran around in BPO's in pubs you did die a lot. And if you didn't then your competition sucked. Dustkillz and chill
Alena Asakura Rogue Clones Yulai Federation 1180	Posted - 2016.09.15 22:20:00 - [56] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Avallo Kantor wrote: TooMany Names AlreadyTaken wrote: I think what makes it unique (at least to me) is the fact that it's set so far into the future, and everything is high-tech. I love future tech... And I guess I don't even have to mention what else. Going off of that, what makes the future tech of New Eden different from say... Star Trek, or Firefly, or the numerous other great Sci-Fi settings out there? What aspect of Technology makes it feel like it belongs in New Eden. Without going into another long paragraph, for me the key technology of New Eden is the Clone, and how it handles all the aspects of the Clone. Let's not forget the dark ages after the EVE Gate closed and most planets lost their technology because they did not have the infrastructure to maintain it. In New Eden you have four factions that independently clawed their way back into space. (Well, Caldari and Gallente were not completely independent in their development as they were both in the same system and could communicate.) This results if four different technological development tracks, and even when they share/steal technology from another faction they have their own take on it. Then of course you have that fifth faction that never lost their hold on space but became extremely eccentric. (Didn't clone tech come from them?) I like that in New Eden you can usually tell which faction designed a piece of tech by just looking at it. They have such distinctive styles of design and architecture, as well as completely different social structures. Don't forget that Minmatar was essentially a slave or servant race to the Amarr. Their technology at least partially derived from that link.
Alena Asakura Rogue Clones Yulai Federation 1180	Posted - 2016.09.15 22:27:00 - [57] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: Alena Asakura wrote: byte modal wrote: It's a bit more than "leveling". For more than one player, choice and the consequences of that choice are important. EvE was a life sim of sorts. It was a place to login to avoid games where you could pay 10g for a spec reset and boom: everything starts over fresh making any choice up to that point ...pointless. In EvE, I had to frigate to cruiser to battleship, etc., hopefully learning the pros and cons of each along the way. If I made a mistake in my skill path, then I had to learn how to make use of what I had until I corrected my path. On the plus side, I never lost the ability to redirect my skills at any point along the way. I was never bound to one role or another. It was all forward and compounding gain that I couldn't find anywhere else. For me, that was unique. It's actually less about progression and more about decision-making and commitment. Also, I am not saying that is the end-all be-all of my attraction to EvE; however, it is something that made it stand out for me. Injectors water that aspect down considerably. My post was in reply to OP, and that's my humble opinion. That does not negate whatever other or additional enjoyment players may get out of it. Just mine, due to the principles that shape my opinions. EDIT Also: life is leveling. EvE felt more realistic as a result. For me, at least. YMMV. The problem with EvE is that it is slowly being turned into just another game that you can pay to get whatever you want. There's no requirement anymore to go through the whole skill training thing that made the experience of training worthwhile. This is one of the things that so many of the long liners are complaining about - they trained for years and years to get where they are and now suddenly, people can just buy the skills they need for ISK, which itself is easy enough to get from selling PLEXes. PLEXing used to be a very maligned practice. Now it's practically the primary way to do anything fast in the game, and since for most people they just want things fast, the logic follows that PLEXing is becoming a primary source of in game money. No wonder the long liners complain so vehemently. Seriously? With all the popular stories of people "buying win" and then getting facerolled by ships nowhere near their cost people STILL won't drop the pay-to-win ****? You can't buy win in EVE Online. I've seen dozens of people in my 8 years in EVE playing on characters with crazy SP counts that they bought off the character bazaar. They've all been childishly easy to take down. In the most infamous story of them all, a lawyer dumped $3300 dollars on PLEX and only got a humiliating lossmail and yet another Goonswarm scam story for his trouble. Even in non-combat professions you're just going to get creamed by people with experience. If you don't have years of practice to draw from you are going to be easy fodder for people who do whether in PvP, marketing, industry, or even exploration. There's just no contest. EVE is not a level-based MMO. Your SP and ISO have no bearing on how good you are at managing your ship and making informed decisions. I never said you can "buy win" in EvE. I said that people are paying to win. That doesn't mean they actually win by it, but the effect is still pretty profound. When people can just buy skill injectors full of the skills you spend years training, you will feel pretty cheesed off, too. Yes, those same people then have to learn to use those skills, which is a whole other problem, but the fact they paid to get them fast tracked is what the long-liners have a problem with. And these days, I myself am actually becoming a bit of a long liner. To me, paying for skill injectors to get to the level of my EvE main is tantamount to someone selling their EvE account, something which is supposed to be illegal according to the terms of agreement. The fact that CCP have effectively given people the means by which they can do exactly the same thing, but wait, now they have to pay CCP the real dollars to do it, means this is just another CCP cash cow.
Alena Asakura Rogue Clones Yulai Federation 1180	Posted - 2016.09.15 22:31:00 - [58] - Quote byte modal wrote: To draw a line, I do not believe it's P2W. For me at least, that's not the issue. As you said: without the skill and knowledge gained from experience in playing the game, those skipping in line will be destroyed. That right there is at the heart of my point. I've gained experience through the grind, or "leveling" as you put it. That experience carries with it a sense of pride and history. EvE has history. It's persistent. That spirit has always been what attracted me. The permanence of skill histories is (was?) a small reflection of that persistent universe---my own small reflection as a spec in that great universe. Training skills does not prevent me from enjoying the game. It just opens doors to new or more efficient ways of enjoyment; however, the knowledge comes through the wait. The wait also creates anticipation. When it's over, it's a genuine sense of accomplishment that will stay with me throughout my EvE game---and all the in-game experience that has accumulated as a result. Not anymore. That is why EvE no longer has the attraction for me that it once did. It's not up to you to argue that my principles are wrong. It's absolutely irrelevant that you don't understand. If you enjoy things as they are, then by all means enjoy it. I am not going to rock the boat. I'll just eventually stop playing if other elements of the game can't pick up the slack for me. I'm pretty sure I've drifted far off topic. Sorry OP! I couldn't have said it better myself. In fact, if you hadn't said it, I probably would have. :)
Alena Asakura Rogue Clones Yulai Federation 1180	Posted - 2016.09.15 22:40:00 - [59] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: LOL KILLZ wrote: BPO was awesome!!! I want my suits back No, they were terrible! They basically became required to be competetive in Dust because they were the best way to make money. You should NEVER under ANY circumstances have magically unlimited gear that exempts you from suffering loss. I actually agree with this, as I believe that BPOs should always have been part of a manufacturing element to the game. Given that Dust was never integrated properly into EvE to allow that manufacturing to occur, there had to be some other way to utilize BPOs. I would have gone with a model where BPOs could be purchased or BPCs made or purchased, and just having them meant you could gain access to a supply of them (infinite for BPOs, limited for BPCs) but AT A COST comprised of some notional cost of the materials involved. In EvE, BPs are quite reasonable because even with BPs you don't get anything for free, and the same sort of model could have been used in Dust. The use of the BPO concept to give people access to FREE suits and equipment is what went wrong. Blame CCP for that - they invented them for use by their own people, and then allowed the concept to be used outside of that select group.
Alena Asakura Rogue Clones Yulai Federation 1180	Posted - 2016.09.15 22:50:00 - [60] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: You really think he's competing with full-time industrial moguls? Yeah, he's doing what he loves with real money, but he's hardly dominating the economy or anything. I've bought multiple Game Time Codes in the past and used them to set up ships that probably got me more than one kill against people who earned all the ISK for their fittings in-game. However in more of those cases I've lost those ships to people with more experience than me. What I'm saying is the issue isn't as black-and-white as many people argue it is. I'll make my case again - it's not whether he's winning or not - it's the fact that he's fast-tracking something others have taken years to get to. It's definitely P2W, even if the person paying isn't necessarily winning. The long-liners do not like that.

Nomed Deeps The Exemplars 554	Posted - 2016.09.16 00:00:00 - [61] - Quote Rattati comes out of hiding for one post and this thread turns into an argument about P2W. Pretty sure this is not what this thread was created to discuss. Could we please get back on topic and discuss P2W elsewhere? I cannot be bought, but I can be leased.
Aiwha Bait Incorruptibles 361	Posted - 2016.09.16 01:09:00 - [62] - Quote Honestly, I feel like New Eden is unique because of how goddamn social it is, and DUST captured that so beautifully. Why is New Eden so social? I have no ******* idea, but it is for some reason. Same goes for DUST. DUST, for whatever reason, turned out to be the most social FPS ever. No idea why. "Bait is too adorable to stab" - Zaria Min Deir Every hole is goal. - 1NC0R
Joel II X Bacon with a bottle of Quafe 10500	Posted - 2016.09.16 02:11:00 - [63] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: - ETERNAL, death is just a means to an end, persistent character progression through the infomorph and clone interaction - EPIC, and the world does not revolve around you, you are a tiny forgettable speck - dystopian galaxy at PERPETUAL WAR - REAL, endless character, lore and backstory, names have a meaning, references are real - SELF, ownership, you own your stuff, your story, your progression, collective ownership and achievements - CHOICES, again progression, friends, foes, factions, allegiance, playstyle, strategy, tactics Ra- Rattati? wipes eyes Is that you? Is that really you? *Scouts United* Gk.0s & Quafes all day.
Echo 1991 warravens Imperium Eden 1268	Posted - 2016.09.16 02:14:00 - [64] - Quote Alena Asakura wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: You really think he's competing with full-time industrial moguls? Yeah, he's doing what he loves with real money, but he's hardly dominating the economy or anything. I've bought multiple Game Time Codes in the past and used them to set up ships that probably got me more than one kill against people who earned all the ISK for their fittings in-game. However in more of those cases I've lost those ships to people with more experience than me. What I'm saying is the issue isn't as black-and-white as many people argue it is. I'll make my case again - it's not whether he's winning or not - it's the fact that he's fast-tracking something others have taken years to get to. It's definitely P2W, even if the person paying isn't necessarily winning. The long-liners do not like that. If the person isn't winning, then they aren't paying to win. Mobius is right, you could have all the money in the world dumped into the game, if you don't know what you're doing you're gonna get blown up. Experience and knowing when to back off are gonna be the deciding factor in eve. Change the Ion Pistol Fitting Skill Pls. #PortDust514 'Echo is a dirty hooker' - UnclS2
Sequal's Back Dead Man's Game Preatoriani 2266	Posted - 2016.09.16 06:29:00 - [65] - Quote Aiwha Bait wrote: Honestly, I feel like New Eden is unique because of how goddamn social it is, and DUST captured that so beautifully. Why is New Eden so social? I have no ******* idea, but it is for some reason. Same goes for DUST. DUST, for whatever reason, turned out to be the most social FPS ever. No idea why. Totally agree with you. The social aspect of Dust is what made it so unique. I and many others could spend hours without playing, only chatting and tweaking dropsuits. All the point s that Rattati said are true, but this one is the most important. "I hope we don't have vehicles [in Nova] simply so we don't have to deal with the people who drive them." -Ripley Riley
Marston VC SVER True Blood RUST415 1909	Posted - 2016.09.16 08:36:00 - [66] - Quote Alena Asakura wrote: byte modal wrote: It's a bit more than "leveling". For more than one player, choice and the consequences of that choice are important. EvE was a life sim of sorts. It was a place to login to avoid games where you could pay 10g for a spec reset and boom: everything starts over fresh making any choice up to that point ...pointless. In EvE, I had to frigate to cruiser to battleship, etc., hopefully learning the pros and cons of each along the way. If I made a mistake in my skill path, then I had to learn how to make use of what I had until I corrected my path. On the plus side, I never lost the ability to redirect my skills at any point along the way. I was never bound to one role or another. It was all forward and compounding gain that I couldn't find anywhere else. For me, that was unique. It's actually less about progression and more about decision-making and commitment. Also, I am not saying that is the end-all be-all of my attraction to EvE; however, it is something that made it stand out for me. Injectors water that aspect down considerably. My post was in reply to OP, and that's my humble opinion. That does not negate whatever other or additional enjoyment players may get out of it. Just mine, due to the principles that shape my opinions. EDIT Also: life is leveling. EvE felt more realistic as a result. For me, at least. YMMV. The problem with EvE is that it is slowly being turned into just another game that you can pay to get whatever you want. There's no requirement anymore to go through the whole skill training thing that made the experience of training worthwhile. This is one of the things that so many of the long liners are complaining about - they trained for years and years to get where they are and now suddenly, people can just buy the skills they need for ISK, which itself is easy enough to get from selling PLEXes. PLEXing used to be a very maligned practice. Now it's practically the primary way to do anything fast in the game, and since for most people they just want things fast, the logic follows that PLEXing is becoming a primary source of in game money. No wonder the long liners complain so vehemently. You do realize there has always been a character bizzar where people could buy fully skilled characters right? The only thing skill injectors changed was that now ccp has another way to make more money. And I'm all for that! Ccp needs to stay in business for us to play their game. ALSO, skill injectors have a steep decline in effectiveness the more skill points a character has. So basically, skill injectors are a way for more affluent people who might have wanted to play the game but didn't want to wait 6 months to do something cool to just skip the bs newbie grind and hop right into the game. Buying skill points DOES NOT make you a good pilot. The feature in the game will serve only to boost player numbers. The same can be said with the new free trial account system. Now there will be a great number of new players who might be willing to give the game a shot since they don't have to worry about paying. The game in my opinion is heading in a great direction. Yes there needs to be some improvements. But I can easily see things in a positive light moving forward. Marston VC, STB Director
Marston VC SVER True Blood RUST415 1909	Posted - 2016.09.16 08:40:00 - [67] - Quote Alena Asakura wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: Alena Asakura wrote: byte modal wrote: It's a bit more than "leveling". For more than one player, choice and the consequences of that choice are important. EvE was a life sim of sorts. It was a place to login to avoid games where you could pay 10g for a spec reset and boom: everything starts over fresh making any choice up to that point ...pointless. In EvE, I had to frigate to cruiser to battleship, etc., hopefully learning the pros and cons of each along the way. If I made a mistake in my skill path, then I had to learn how to make use of what I had until I corrected my path. On the plus side, I never lost the ability to redirect my skills at any point along the way. I was never bound to one role or another. It was all forward and compounding gain that I couldn't find anywhere else. For me, that was unique. It's actually less about progression and more about decision-making and commitment. Also, I am not saying that is the end-all be-all of my attraction to EvE; however, it is something that made it stand out for me. Injectors water that aspect down considerably. My post was in reply to OP, and that's my humble opinion. That does not negate whatever other or additional enjoyment players may get out of it. Just mine, due to the principles that shape my opinions. EDIT Also: life is leveling. EvE felt more realistic as a result. For me, at least. YMMV. The problem with EvE is that it is slowly being turned into just another game that you can pay to get whatever you want. There's no requirement anymore to go through the whole skill training thing that made the experience of training worthwhile. This is one of the things that so many of the long liners are complaining about - they trained for years and years to get where they are and now suddenly, people can just buy the skills they need for ISK, which itself is easy enough to get from selling PLEXes. PLEXing used to be a very maligned practice. Now it's practically the primary way to do anything fast in the game, and since for most people they just want things fast, the logic follows that PLEXing is becoming a primary source of in game money. No wonder the long liners complain so vehemently. Seriously? With all the popular stories of people "buying win" and then getting facerolled by ships nowhere near their cost people STILL won't drop the pay-to-win ****? You can't buy win in EVE Online. I've seen dozens of people in my 8 years in EVE playing on characters with crazy SP counts that they bought off the character bazaar. They've all been childishly easy to take down. In the most infamous story of them all, a lawyer dumped $3300 dollars on PLEX and only got a humiliating lossmail and yet another Goonswarm scam story for his trouble. Even in non-combat professions you're just going to get creamed by people with experience. If you don't have years of practice to draw from you are going to be easy fodder for people who do whether in PvP, marketing, industry, or even exploration. There's just no contest. EVE is not a level-based MMO. Your SP and ISO have no bearing on how good you are at managing your ship and making informed decisions. I never said you can "buy win" in EvE. I said that people are paying to win. That doesn't mean they actually win by it, but the effect is still pretty profound. When people can just buy skill injectors full of the skills you spend years training, you will feel pretty cheesed off, too. Yes, those same people then have to learn to use those skills, which is a whole other problem, but the fact they paid to get them fast tracked is what the long-liners have a problem with. And these days, I myself am actually becoming a bit of a long liner. To me, paying for skill injectors to get to the level of my EvE main is tantamount to someone selling their EvE account, something which is supposed to be illegal according to the terms of agreement. The fact that CCP have effectively given people the means by which they can do exactly the same thing, but wait, now they have to pay CCP the real dollars to do it, means this is just another CCP cash cow. So where did you forget to factor in the eve character bizzar and how for a very long time now people have always been able to buy fully skilled characters? Marston VC, STB Director
Marston VC SVER True Blood RUST415 1909	Posted - 2016.09.16 08:49:00 - [68] - Quote Alena Asakura wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: You really think he's competing with full-time industrial moguls? Yeah, he's doing what he loves with real money, but he's hardly dominating the economy or anything. I've bought multiple Game Time Codes in the past and used them to set up ships that probably got me more than one kill against people who earned all the ISK for their fittings in-game. However in more of those cases I've lost those ships to people with more experience than me. What I'm saying is the issue isn't as black-and-white as many people argue it is. I'll make my case again - it's not whether he's winning or not - it's the fact that he's fast-tracking something others have taken years to get to. It's definitely P2W, even if the person paying isn't necessarily winning. The long-liners do not like that. Who are you to speak for all "long liners"? Lol I've spoken to many people about skill injectors. Many of them who have been playing since close to the beginning. Most of the responses I get are that of "I don't really think it's a big deal" and "will just have to wait and see" Ccp spent a good portion of a year hammering out details with the CSM as to how these injectors would be implemented and what stipulations would be required to prevent them from unbalancing the game. Hence the diminishing return you get as your total SP count goes up. Also your completely forgetting that players can spend isk on these injectors to. So it's not exclusive to people who spend money on the game. I run incursions with eve uni on one of my accounts and injectors have really helped a lot of struggling newer players. What used to take two-three months for our new guys to train takes like 1 month now because as they earn money picketing/scouting for us they buy sp injectors so that they can hop into a battleship faster and really get their eve career started. And AGAIN let's not forgetting the eve character bizzar that's been around for forever. People have been buying fully skilled characters through that for years now and the game has been doing fine. Marston VC, STB Director
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 7846	Posted - 2016.09.16 12:06:00 - [69] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: You can't buy win in EVE Online. I've seen dozens of people in my 8 years in EVE playing on characters with crazy SP counts that they bought off the character bazaar. They've all been childishly easy to take down. This is so true. Buying PLEX and selling it for ISK will allow you to outfit a ship for PVP without having to grind PVE or other avenues to raise the funds, but the outcome of PVP in EVE is about 20% how you fit your ship and 80% knowing what to do with it. You need to not only know how to fly your ship to its potential (range, vector, overheat timing, power management, etc.), but you also have to know all the other ships you might face and how to counter them. Most importantly you need to know when to fight and when to run, because there are no ships in EVE that do not have a counter. It does not matter how expensive and shiny your ship is, if you don't have the experience, you need to get in with a fleet commander who does! Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 7846	Posted - 2016.09.16 12:20:00 - [70] - Quote LOL KILLZ wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: Lightning35 Delta514 wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: james selim brownstein wrote: @Rattati - Will we be getting any BPO's from Dust in Nova? I really want my C3P0 Logi (Shaman) back HELL no. I hope to whatever god there is that Nova never has BPOs like Dust. There should never be any escape from risk or loss. We need Quafe As a paintjob, not an unlimited-use asset. BPO was awesome!!! I want my suits back I liked Skins. I did not like the free BPO. Having a BPO should allowing you to craft the suit using raw materials which you can acquire through effort, or buy for quite a bit less than it would cost to buy the suit. Then you should be able to sell the suits that you are not going to use yourself on the open market. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.

Alena Asakura Rogue Clones Yulai Federation 1180	Posted - 2016.09.16 12:32:00 - [71] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: Alena Asakura wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: You really think he's competing with full-time industrial moguls? Yeah, he's doing what he loves with real money, but he's hardly dominating the economy or anything. I've bought multiple Game Time Codes in the past and used them to set up ships that probably got me more than one kill against people who earned all the ISK for their fittings in-game. However in more of those cases I've lost those ships to people with more experience than me. What I'm saying is the issue isn't as black-and-white as many people argue it is. I'll make my case again - it's not whether he's winning or not - it's the fact that he's fast-tracking something others have taken years to get to. It's definitely P2W, even if the person paying isn't necessarily winning. The long-liners do not like that. If the person isn't winning, then they aren't paying to win. Mobius is right, you could have all the money in the world dumped into the game, if you don't know what you're doing you're gonna get blown up. Experience and knowing when to back off are gonna be the deciding factor in eve. You're still not getting it. It doesn't matter whether they're winning or not. If they're paying to get a fast track to the training, this is what the long liners don't like. It doesn't matter to them whether the people paying for their fast tracked skills know how to use them or not, they only care that they trained for years and years to get where they are and now someone comes along and buys the skills without having to do the training. I know people who just buy skills won't have the experience to use them. I'm a long-liner myself, and know how you have to actually use the skills to get the experience necessary. To an extent the long-liners are a little illogical about this, but logic has little to do with the way people perceive unfair advantage.
Alena Asakura Rogue Clones Yulai Federation 1180	Posted - 2016.09.16 12:35:00 - [72] - Quote Marston VC wrote: Alena Asakura wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: You really think he's competing with full-time industrial moguls? Yeah, he's doing what he loves with real money, but he's hardly dominating the economy or anything. I've bought multiple Game Time Codes in the past and used them to set up ships that probably got me more than one kill against people who earned all the ISK for their fittings in-game. However in more of those cases I've lost those ships to people with more experience than me. What I'm saying is the issue isn't as black-and-white as many people argue it is. I'll make my case again - it's not whether he's winning or not - it's the fact that he's fast-tracking something others have taken years to get to. It's definitely P2W, even if the person paying isn't necessarily winning. The long-liners do not like that. Who are you to speak for all "long liners"? Lol I've spoken to many people about skill injectors. Many of them who have been playing since close to the beginning. Most of the responses I get are that of "I don't really think it's a big deal" and "will just have to wait and see" Ccp spent a good portion of a year hammering out details with the CSM as to how these injectors would be implemented and what stipulations would be required to prevent them from unbalancing the game. Hence the diminishing return you get as your total SP count goes up. Also your completely forgetting that players can spend isk on these injectors to. So it's not exclusive to people who spend money on the game. I run incursions with eve uni on one of my accounts and injectors have really helped a lot of struggling newer players. What used to take two-three months for our new guys to train takes like 1 month now because as they earn money picketing/scouting for us they buy sp injectors so that they can hop into a battleship faster and really get their eve career started. And AGAIN let's not forgetting the eve character bizzar that's been around for forever. People have been buying fully skilled characters through that for years now and the game has been doing fine. No of course I don't speak for all long-liners. I only speak of the ones I know, and they tend to dislike this sort of thing. Most of them would actually prefer the game was put back to the way it was before all the massive changes started happening, including Walking In Stations, and the likes of the Titan nerf.
Alena Asakura Rogue Clones Yulai Federation 1181	Posted - 2016.09.16 21:16:00 - [73] - Quote Marston VC wrote: Alena Asakura wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: Alena Asakura wrote: byte modal wrote: It's a bit more than "leveling". For more than one player, choice and the consequences of that choice are important. EvE was a life sim of sorts. It was a place to login to avoid games where you could pay 10g for a spec reset and boom: everything starts over fresh making any choice up to that point ...pointless. In EvE, I had to frigate to cruiser to battleship, etc., hopefully learning the pros and cons of each along the way. If I made a mistake in my skill path, then I had to learn how to make use of what I had until I corrected my path. On the plus side, I never lost the ability to redirect my skills at any point along the way. I was never bound to one role or another. It was all forward and compounding gain that I couldn't find anywhere else. For me, that was unique. It's actually less about progression and more about decision-making and commitment. Also, I am not saying that is the end-all be-all of my attraction to EvE; however, it is something that made it stand out for me. Injectors water that aspect down considerably. My post was in reply to OP, and that's my humble opinion. That does not negate whatever other or additional enjoyment players may get out of it. Just mine, due to the principles that shape my opinions. EDIT Also: life is leveling. EvE felt more realistic as a result. For me, at least. YMMV. The problem with EvE is that it is slowly being turned into just another game that you can pay to get whatever you want. There's no requirement anymore to go through the whole skill training thing that made the experience of training worthwhile. This is one of the things that so many of the long liners are complaining about - they trained for years and years to get where they are and now suddenly, people can just buy the skills they need for ISK, which itself is easy enough to get from selling PLEXes. PLEXing used to be a very maligned practice. Now it's practically the primary way to do anything fast in the game, and since for most people they just want things fast, the logic follows that PLEXing is becoming a primary source of in game money. No wonder the long liners complain so vehemently. Seriously? With all the popular stories of people "buying win" and then getting facerolled by ships nowhere near their cost people STILL won't drop the pay-to-win ****? You can't buy win in EVE Online. I've seen dozens of people in my 8 years in EVE playing on characters with crazy SP counts that they bought off the character bazaar. They've all been childishly easy to take down. In the most infamous story of them all, a lawyer dumped $3300 dollars on PLEX and only got a humiliating lossmail and yet another Goonswarm scam story for his trouble. Even in non-combat professions you're just going to get creamed by people with experience. If you don't have years of practice to draw from you are going to be easy fodder for people who do whether in PvP, marketing, industry, or even exploration. There's just no contest. EVE is not a level-based MMO. Your SP and ISO have no bearing on how good you are at managing your ship and making informed decisions. I never said you can "buy win" in EvE. I said that people are paying to win. That doesn't mean they actually win by it, but the effect is still pretty profound. When people can just buy skill injectors full of the skills you spend years training, you will feel pretty cheesed off, too. Yes, those same people then have to learn to use those skills, which is a whole other problem, but the fact they paid to get them fast tracked is what the long-liners have a problem with. And these days, I myself am actually becoming a bit of a long liner. To me, paying for skill injectors to get to the level of my EvE main is tantamount to someone selling their EvE account, something which is supposed to be illegal according to the terms of agreement. The fact that CCP have effectively given people the means by which they can do exactly the same thing, but wait, now they have to pay CCP the real dollars to do it, means this is just another CCP cash cow. So where did you forget to factor in the eve character bizzar and how for a very long time now people have always been able to buy fully skilled characters? I never forgot that. The long-liners hate that too! :)
Avallo Kantor 1183	Posted - 2016.09.17 00:56:00 - [74] - Quote Trying a bit to redirect the conversation back to it's original point, I'd like to argue the merits of why getting the feel of New Eden is so important, and why it's a thing that players can help out with. It is important that mechanics help bring the feel and theme of a game to life, instead of the two being created at separate points. (Often with mechanics before theme) This can cause imbalances or inconsistencies in the narrative / feel of the game which generally detract from the fun and immersion of the game. NOVA has the clear advantage of having two games worth of prior experience to establish the mood, feel, and themes that such a game should adhere to, as well as certain mechanics that help to enhance that theme. It is important then to distill those themes down as much as possible, preferably to a small list of bullet points (like what Rattati did) to keep in mind. Then from those concepts and themes, mechanics can then be developed that tie into those themes. For example, if a theme is to feel a sense of "SELF" where things you own are important to you then mechanics that make you feel less ownership over things would harm that notion. As a minor example free vehicles spawning on a map would harm this as it does not grant a sense of ownership over things. To continue on my line of questioning, let's look at a comparison. DUST and STAR WARS BATTLEFRONT both have "load out" systems. Here defining a "load out" system, as some mechanical system that allows you a difference in kind of gear and tools at your disposal that differentiates one load out from another in feel and mechanics. However, DUST managed to make fits feel unique or special to the point that some players considered a fit to be "theirs". Meanwhile, Battlefront did not grant this same sense of ownership despite also having the same mechanical system in place. What was the difference that made one feel like New Eden, and the other... not? "Mind Blown" - CCP Rattati
byte modal 986	Posted - 2016.09.17 01:17:00 - [75] - Quote I'm not really sure there was a difference. DUST514 came preloaded with associations to EvE just by coming from CCP. We tend to project ourselves onto things to fill in the blanks when there are blanks to fill. Like how we treat our pets as though they are emotionally complex enough to feel what we feel. They're not, but we fill in the gaps with our own emotional assumptions and empathy. Did some of us do this with DUST? The game sure had enough holes for us ;) No idea really. Just bumping the thread. And trying to better stay on point this time. kitten bacon taco (nom)

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 27711	Posted - 2016.09.17 10:08:00 - [76] - Quote Avallo Kantor wrote: Trying a bit to redirect the conversation back to it's original point, I'd like to argue the merits of why getting the feel of New Eden is so important, and why it's a thing that players can help out with. It is important that mechanics help bring the feel and theme of a game to life, instead of the two being created at separate points. (Often with mechanics before theme) This can cause imbalances or inconsistencies in the narrative / feel of the game which generally detract from the fun and immersion of the game. NOVA has the clear advantage of having two games worth of prior experience to establish the mood, feel, and themes that such a game should adhere to, as well as certain mechanics that help to enhance that theme. It is important then to distill those themes down as much as possible, preferably to a small list of bullet points (like what Rattati did) to keep in mind. Then from those concepts and themes, mechanics can then be developed that tie into those themes. For example, if a theme is to feel a sense of "SELF" where things you own are important to you then mechanics that make you feel less ownership over things would harm that notion. As a minor example free vehicles spawning on a map would harm this as it does not grant a sense of ownership over things. To continue on my line of questioning, let's look at a comparison. DUST and STAR WARS BATTLEFRONT both have "load out" systems. Here defining a "load out" system, as some mechanical system that allows you a difference in kind of gear and tools at your disposal that differentiates one load out from another in feel and mechanics. However, DUST managed to make fits feel unique or special to the point that some players considered a fit to be "theirs". Meanwhile, Battlefront did not grant this same sense of ownership despite also having the same mechanical system in place. What was the difference that made one feel like New Eden, and the other... not? Exactly, these pillars should guide our development. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

byte modal 986	Posted - 2016.09.17 13:36:00 - [77] - Quote Speaking to loadouts and pride in ownership, acquiring and learning skills needed to use specific equipment give a sense of investment on property. It reinforces our notions of ownership and primes us to feel a need to protect our property (protecting our equipment through survival). That has always been another attraction of mine with EvE---the risk of loss through a severe death penalty. In the case of DUST, that was a great sense of immersion too; though it did have flaws IMHO. BPOs (as used in DUST) directly contradicted that notion of investment and risk. What risk is there with an infinite stock of equipment? I am not going to derail with an argument of balance or other subtleties involved as to why this was a benefit to some or not; I'm just speaking on a philosophical view of an element that countered what, in my view, is, in part the spirit of EvE and what was potentially the spirit of DUST. Bleh. On my phone and it's too early for this! I'll come back to finish my thoughts on skill progression. Mornin =/ kitten bacon taco (nom)
Mobius Wyvern Night Theifs Curatores Veritatis Alliance 8395	Posted - 2016.09.17 13:46:00 - [78] - Quote byte modal wrote: Speaking to loadouts and pride in ownership, acquiring and learning skills needed to use specific equipment give a sense of investment on property. It reinforces our notions of ownership and primes us to feel a need to protect our property (protecting our equipment through survival). That has always been another attraction of mine with EvE---the risk of loss through a severe death penalty. In the case of DUST, that was a great sense of immersion too; though it did have flaws IMHO. BPOs (as used in DUST) directly contradicted that notion of investment and risk. What risk is there with an infinite stock of equipment? I am not going to derail with an argument of balance or other subtleties involved as to why this was a benefit to some or not; I'm just speaking on a philosophical view of an element that countered what, in my view, is, in part the spirit of EvE and what was potentially the spirit of DUST. Bleh. On my phone and it's too early for this! I'll come back to finish my thoughts on skill progression. Mornin =/ Exactly, Byte. Once you can have an unlimited supply of a certain kind of gear, it reduces your investment in the fight and also means that win or lose you still get paid substantially thanks to not having to replace lost gear. If Project Nova were to have industry elements that blueprints could be used for, and BPOs worked like they do in EVE Online, I would be fine with them. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Nomed Deeps The Exemplars 554	Posted - 2016.09.17 14:00:00 - [79] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: byte modal wrote: Speaking to loadouts and pride in ownership, acquiring and learning skills needed to use specific equipment give a sense of investment on property. It reinforces our notions of ownership and primes us to feel a need to protect our property (protecting our equipment through survival). That has always been another attraction of mine with EvE---the risk of loss through a severe death penalty. In the case of DUST, that was a great sense of immersion too; though it did have flaws IMHO. BPOs (as used in DUST) directly contradicted that notion of investment and risk. What risk is there with an infinite stock of equipment? I am not going to derail with an argument of balance or other subtleties involved as to why this was a benefit to some or not; I'm just speaking on a philosophical view of an element that countered what, in my view, is, in part the spirit of EvE and what was potentially the spirit of DUST. Bleh. On my phone and it's too early for this! I'll come back to finish my thoughts on skill progression. Mornin =/ Exactly, Byte. Once you can have an unlimited supply of a certain kind of gear, it reduces your investment in the fight and also means that win or lose you still get paid substantially thanks to not having to replace lost gear. If Project Nova were to have industry elements that blueprints could be used for, and BPOs worked like they do in EVE Online, I would be fine with them. To be able to use BPOs like in EVE, players would have to get a hold of materials to craft their gear off of the BPOs not to mention a way of creating the gear once you get the materials (material + production cost). This would likely add a whole other complexity to development of the game. I'd be for it but I doubt CCP would. That said, I think Project Nova would likely be best without BPOs (at least in the short term to enable time to get them to work right). The shortcutted BPOs as provided with DUST did kind of kill the point of the game. I cannot be bought, but I can be leased.
Mobius Wyvern Night Theifs Curatores Veritatis Alliance 8396	Posted - 2016.09.17 15:00:00 - [80] - Quote Nomed Deeps wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: byte modal wrote: Speaking to loadouts and pride in ownership, acquiring and learning skills needed to use specific equipment give a sense of investment on property. It reinforces our notions of ownership and primes us to feel a need to protect our property (protecting our equipment through survival). That has always been another attraction of mine with EvE---the risk of loss through a severe death penalty. In the case of DUST, that was a great sense of immersion too; though it did have flaws IMHO. BPOs (as used in DUST) directly contradicted that notion of investment and risk. What risk is there with an infinite stock of equipment? I am not going to derail with an argument of balance or other subtleties involved as to why this was a benefit to some or not; I'm just speaking on a philosophical view of an element that countered what, in my view, is, in part the spirit of EvE and what was potentially the spirit of DUST. Bleh. On my phone and it's too early for this! I'll come back to finish my thoughts on skill progression. Mornin =/ Exactly, Byte. Once you can have an unlimited supply of a certain kind of gear, it reduces your investment in the fight and also means that win or lose you still get paid substantially thanks to not having to replace lost gear. If Project Nova were to have industry elements that blueprints could be used for, and BPOs worked like they do in EVE Online, I would be fine with them. To be able to use BPOs like in EVE, players would have to get a hold of materials to craft their gear off of the BPOs not to mention a way of creating the gear once you get the materials (BPO + material + production cost = produced gear). This would likely add a whole other complexity to development of the game. I'd be for it but I doubt CCP would. That said, I think Project Nova would likely be best without BPOs (at least in the short term to enable time to get them to work right). The shortcutted BPOs as provided with DUST did kind of kill the point of the game. Agreed. One would hope that the BPOs will be used by EVE players to provide us with stockpiles of affordable gear while boosting the space-side economy. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector

roblox098 Eternal Beings 261	Posted - 2016.09.17 22:47:00 - [81] - Quote Avallo Kantor wrote: Taking a quote from CCP LogicLoop: CCP LogicLoop wrote: On the Nova Discord channel earlier today. [4:48 PM] CCP Rattati: just assuring that the Nova team absolutely working on improving what you saw at fanfest [4:48 PM] CCP Rattati: especially on the feedback we got [4:49 PM] CCP Rattati: "looks like good fps gameplay, NOW WHAT" [4:49 PM] CCP Rattati: "not eve enough" [4:49 PM] CCP Rattati: etc [4:49 PM] CCP Rattati: we have been working on the "essence" of the game if you will [4:50 PM] CCP Rattati: uniqueness and setting [4:50 PM] CCP Rattati: it wouldn't be a new eden fps if there wasn't So this brings up, in my mind, an interesting point of discussion that warrants its own thread. What feature or features distill the universe of New Eden into a tangible form for you? How can somebody make a game that feels like it belongs in that universe, and what components are core to it's setting. I think that is a topic we would have the best shot of answering, and hopefully bring insight to the devs who read the forum (or at least LogicLoop if nobody else) To that end, I feel New Eden is best defined by its sense of Consequences. By that I mean that choices you make in the game have a weight and importance to them that have meaningful impact down the road. This is done by having them affect all levels and types of play, from the minor details of skill application defining your character, to the larger politics of entities that affect the power balance of space. New Eden's history is, in my opinion, defined by player action and the consequences those actions carried. DUST was able to achieve this through a number of ways, from the skill point system, to the ISK cost of suits, to the tug of war between Faction Warfare and Planetary Conquest. When these features fell flat for the players was only when that sense of consequence and impact was disrupted or began to ring hollow. Such as when people had enough money to not care about it, or when the FW battles seemed arbitrary and had little impact on the greater war, or when Planetary Conquest felt it had no real benefits aside from the fights it generated. To that end, I feel that any game that wants to feel like it belongs in New Eden needs things that tie together individual play experiences to feel like they are impacting a greater whole. There needs to be player progression that involves choice, not just a static level that dictates what you have for you. There needs to be an ability for player's moment to moment gameplay affect some meta aspect of their experience that goes beyond simple statistics. DUST did this with consumable fittings that impacted the player after a match. Activities need to be in place for a group of players to impact larger aspects of the world in a way that has some degree of persistance. DUST tried to do this via FW and PCs. Players need a variety of ways to impact other players beyond simple combat mechanics. This can be done via trade, industry, politics, or any other activity that touches upon the play experience of other players outside of matches. The world / universe needs to feel as if players can impact it in some way. Some aspect of the world needs to be able to be changed by player action. Such as ownership of a system, availability of resources, or generation of missions. All of the general points I laid above help to create a setting that is more distinctly New Eden, even if it lacks some of the more familiar trappings of EVE or DUST. The important things about New Eden and the experience players seek from it lie in a perception (not necessarily a reality) that their actions can ripple through the universe and some consequence of their actions affects future events which can be limited to themselves, a few others, or the entire cluster. link to nova discord? I am a Winmintar Spy
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 14186	Posted - 2016.09.17 23:04:00 - [82] - Quote Avallo, unrelated to your post, but I thought I would ask. Have you joined the DUST vets Discord yet? If not, you should. https://discord.gg/0o2qgQkvz7aOoq0f My advice to you, playa.
Avallo Kantor 1187	Posted - 2016.09.18 02:11:00 - [83] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: Avallo, unrelated to your post, but I thought I would ask. Have you joined the DUST vets Discord yet? If not, you should. https://discord.gg/0o2qgQkvz7aOoq0f I've not yet joined but I will do so when I next am able (probably Tuesday) Thank you for thinking I should be member to that conversation. "Mind Blown" - CCP Rattati
John Psi Vacuum Cleaner. LLC 2162	Posted - 2016.09.18 02:17:00 - [84] - Quote God... guys, CCP, sorry - i didnt read all post on this thread. Only one thing make "shooter on New Eden@" unique: the ability to go beyond the fkn session shooter. Having personal property, take care of it, develop yourself and your team. Please support fair play!
General Vahzz 850	Posted - 2016.09.18 03:15:00 - [85] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: Avallo, unrelated to your post, but I thought I would ask. Have you joined the DUST vets Discord yet? If not, you should. https://discord.gg/0o2qgQkvz7aOoq0f is too sht to be a part of it* AFRAID OF THE TOILEEEEEET GET YO STANK ON The Original Bastard.
Alena Asakura Rogue Clones Yulai Federation 1181	Posted - 2016.09.18 07:18:00 - [86] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: byte modal wrote: Speaking to loadouts and pride in ownership, acquiring and learning skills needed to use specific equipment give a sense of investment on property. It reinforces our notions of ownership and primes us to feel a need to protect our property (protecting our equipment through survival). That has always been another attraction of mine with EvE---the risk of loss through a severe death penalty. In the case of DUST, that was a great sense of immersion too; though it did have flaws IMHO. BPOs (as used in DUST) directly contradicted that notion of investment and risk. What risk is there with an infinite stock of equipment? I am not going to derail with an argument of balance or other subtleties involved as to why this was a benefit to some or not; I'm just speaking on a philosophical view of an element that countered what, in my view, is, in part the spirit of EvE and what was potentially the spirit of DUST. Bleh. On my phone and it's too early for this! I'll come back to finish my thoughts on skill progression. Mornin =/ Exactly, Byte. Once you can have an unlimited supply of a certain kind of gear, it reduces your investment in the fight and also means that win or lose you still get paid substantially thanks to not having to replace lost gear. If Project Nova were to have industry elements that blueprints could be used for, and BPOs worked like they do in EVE Online, I would be fine with them. Oh yeah! The more integrated the new game with EvE the better in my mind. If there's enough integration to have proper BPOs and BPCs, EvE-style, and a proper manufacturing economy, I'd be totally happy with that.
Alena Asakura Rogue Clones Yulai Federation 1181	Posted - 2016.09.18 07:21:00 - [87] - Quote Nomed Deeps wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: byte modal wrote: Speaking to loadouts and pride in ownership, acquiring and learning skills needed to use specific equipment give a sense of investment on property. It reinforces our notions of ownership and primes us to feel a need to protect our property (protecting our equipment through survival). That has always been another attraction of mine with EvE---the risk of loss through a severe death penalty. In the case of DUST, that was a great sense of immersion too; though it did have flaws IMHO. BPOs (as used in DUST) directly contradicted that notion of investment and risk. What risk is there with an infinite stock of equipment? I am not going to derail with an argument of balance or other subtleties involved as to why this was a benefit to some or not; I'm just speaking on a philosophical view of an element that countered what, in my view, is, in part the spirit of EvE and what was potentially the spirit of DUST. Bleh. On my phone and it's too early for this! I'll come back to finish my thoughts on skill progression. Mornin =/ Exactly, Byte. Once you can have an unlimited supply of a certain kind of gear, it reduces your investment in the fight and also means that win or lose you still get paid substantially thanks to not having to replace lost gear. If Project Nova were to have industry elements that blueprints could be used for, and BPOs worked like they do in EVE Online, I would be fine with them. To be able to use BPOs like in EVE, players would have to get a hold of materials to craft their gear off of the BPOs not to mention a way of creating the gear once you get the materials (BPO + material + production cost = produced gear). This would likely add a whole other complexity to development of the game. I'd be for it but I doubt CCP would. That said, I think Project Nova would likely be best without BPOs (at least in the short term to enable time to get them to work right). The shortcutted BPOs as provided with DUST did kind of kill the point of the game. CCP's view on this would be that if people wanted to make use of BPs like that, they should have an EvE alt that does manufacturing and then there would need to be a real economy between the two games to allow free transactional exchange between the two.
Hawkings Greenback Dead Man's Game Preatoriani 535	Posted - 2016.09.18 10:50:00 - [88] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: - ETERNAL, death is just a means to an end, persistent character progression through the infomorph and clone interaction - EPIC, and the world does not revolve around you, you are a tiny forgettable speck - dystopian galaxy at PERPETUAL WAR - REAL, endless character, lore and backstory, names have a meaning, references are real - SELF, ownership, you own your stuff, your story, your progression, collective ownership and achievements - CHOICES, again progression, friends, foes, factions, allegiance, playstyle, strategy, tactics Ok cool, let's get it done then because If you can nail this game with the best parts of Dust514 then I can't see me wanting to play much of anything else. I've had no landline Internet for over a month ( damn ISP ) and I don't miss any of the current games I am playing more than Dust514 and that game drove me crackers at times. It makes me feel like I must have some kind of personality disorder Oh and nice to see you alive on the forums. More please. Welcome to Dust. The bitter, salty taste is a feature just like the lag.
Sylwester Dziewiecki Interregnum. 577	Posted - 2016.09.18 15:36:00 - [89] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Avallo Kantor wrote: Trying a bit to redirect the conversation back to it's original point, I'd like to argue the merits of why getting the feel of New Eden is so important, and why it's a thing that players can help out with. It is important that mechanics help bring the feel and theme of a game to life, instead of the two being created at separate points. (Often with mechanics before theme) This can cause imbalances or inconsistencies in the narrative / feel of the game which generally detract from the fun and immersion of the game. NOVA has the clear advantage of having two games worth of prior experience to establish the mood, feel, and themes that such a game should adhere to, as well as certain mechanics that help to enhance that theme. It is important then to distill those themes down as much as possible, preferably to a small list of bullet points (like what Rattati did) to keep in mind. Then from those concepts and themes, mechanics can then be developed that tie into those themes. For example, if a theme is to feel a sense of "SELF" where things you own are important to you then mechanics that make you feel less ownership over things would harm that notion. As a minor example free vehicles spawning on a map would harm this as it does not grant a sense of ownership over things. To continue on my line of questioning, let's look at a comparison. DUST and STAR WARS BATTLEFRONT both have "load out" systems. Here defining a "load out" system, as some mechanical system that allows you a difference in kind of gear and tools at your disposal that differentiates one load out from another in feel and mechanics. However, DUST managed to make fits feel unique or special to the point that some players considered a fit to be "theirs". Meanwhile, Battlefront did not grant this same sense of ownership despite also having the same mechanical system in place. What was the difference that made one feel like New Eden, and the other... not? Exactly, these pillars should guide our development. This is PR posts(I can smell it). Guys you are like made for each other. Avallo, who makes post like those I read in the mid-2012(very classic), and CCP Rattati who restores faith in the CCP by ensuring the reader that 'every post on forum counts'. It's a compliment: you are like old sailors to me. (To add further, Ripley Riley inviting Avallo to Discord-golf-club is like Master of the second plan here). It is hard for me to stick to the topic because it is like huge D+¬j+á vu to me. It remains me begins of Dust in times of the first sketches of how game should look like, how races should work, how equipment should look. Everyone who would try to listen to the narrator of this movie with closed eyes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_LlH2c5dyA will come to conclusus that old game and new game have same thing in common. They both had or will have feelings of eternal, overwhelming cold, they both are at same point epic, very real, with continual war going on etc. and old product at the launch had more goodies. I'm not trying to mimic anyone here or be malicious but honest instead. CCP Rattati it is just a suggestion, selling better product with same marketing will not work. Especially for people who remember how it drown them to play Dust, and after few matches they realize there is tons of bugs stuff that do not work, blind spots in skill tree and whole marketing is illusion. Those people buildup some negative opinion around CCP in general, and in order to get them back I think it would be wise to focus on technical differences between two games(so it's gently bombards previous development team). This is Skirmish v1.0
Aiwha Bait Incorruptibles 364	Posted - 2016.09.19 00:52:00 - [90] - Quote Sequal's Back wrote: Aiwha Bait wrote: Honestly, I feel like New Eden is unique because of how goddamn social it is, and DUST captured that so beautifully. Why is New Eden so social? I have no ***** idea, but it is for some reason. Same goes for DUST. DUST, for whatever reason, turned out to be the most social FPS ever. No idea why. Totally agree with you. The social aspect of Dust is what made it so unique. I and many others could spend hours without playing, only chatting and tweaking dropsuits. All the point s that Rattati said are true, but this one is the most important. Agree 100% w/ the last sentence. I cannot tell you how many hours I spent "playing" DUST w/ 1NC0R and my previous corp just shooting the in my **** MQ (griping about how uncomfortable the bed and couch looked, mostly), making autistic jokes, and laughing at all the poor bastards who got scamming in trade channels. Hours upon hours. Socialization. New Eden is the most social world in gaming. "Bait is too adorable to stab" - Zaria Min Deir Every hole is goal. - 1NC0R

Mobius Wyvern Night Theifs Curatores Veritatis Alliance 8398	Posted - 2016.09.19 01:20:00 - [91] - Quote Aiwha Bait wrote: Sequal's Back wrote: Aiwha Bait wrote: Honestly, I feel like New Eden is unique because of how goddamn social it is, and DUST captured that so beautifully. Why is New Eden so social? I have no ***** idea, but it is for some reason. Same goes for DUST. DUST, for whatever reason, turned out to be the most social FPS ever. No idea why. Totally agree with you. The social aspect of Dust is what made it so unique. I and many others could spend hours without playing, only chatting and tweaking dropsuits. All the point s that Rattati said are true, but this one is the most important. Agree 100% w/ the last sentence. I cannot tell you how many hours I spent "playing" DUST w/ 1NC0R and my previous corp just shooting the in my **** MQ (griping about how uncomfortable the bed and couch looked, mostly), making autistic jokes, and laughing at all the poor bastards who got scamming in trade channels. Hours upon hours. Socialization. New Eden is the most social world in gaming. Very well said. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Avallo Kantor 1189	Posted - 2016.09.21 18:53:00 - [92] - Quote Expanding on the social aspect of DUST / EVE, what makes the social experiences for these games better / different from any other online game? In broad strokes what makes you feel like you have a community in DUST as opposed to having any other shooter that allows for some form of communication between players? "Mind Blown" - CCP Rattati
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 14196	Posted - 2016.09.21 18:58:00 - [93] - Quote Aiwha Bait wrote: 1NC0R Aiwha Bait wrote: autistic jokes Checks out. My advice to you, playa.
Nomed Deeps The Exemplars 567	Posted - 2016.09.21 20:03:00 - [94] - Quote Avallo Kantor wrote: Expanding on the social aspect of DUST / EVE, what makes the social experiences for these games better / different from any other online game? In broad strokes what makes you feel like you have a community in DUST as opposed to having any other shooter that allows for some form of communication between players? I think this is mostly due to in game corp structure. Sure, Destiny has its clans (which are kind of a joke) but DUST/EVE corps make you go and find people to join your corp to strengthen you and your corp. Other online games, not so much. For example, I am currently playing Hawken on the PS4. I hardly ever plug in my mic because there's almost nothing but smack talking and/or whining going on; no strategy or worry for loss (beyond pride) like DUST provided. I cannot be bought, but I can be leased.
Avallo Kantor 1190	Posted - 2016.09.21 20:33:00 - [95] - Quote Nomed Deeps wrote: Avallo Kantor wrote: Expanding on the social aspect of DUST / EVE, what makes the social experiences for these games better / different from any other online game? In broad strokes what makes you feel like you have a community in DUST as opposed to having any other shooter that allows for some form of communication between players? I think this is mostly due to in game corp structure. Sure, Destiny has its clans (which are kind of a joke) but DUST/EVE corps make you go and find people to join your corp to strengthen you and your corp. Other online games, not so much. For example, I am currently playing Hawken on the PS4. I hardly ever plug in my mic because there's almost nothing but smack talking and/or whining going on; no strategy or worry for loss (beyond pride) like DUST provided. I think that is why I am waiting for Project Nova like I am. I don't plan on leading a corp this time around though. So in short, you felt like teams were valuable because they provided a benefit to working together (like is in most games with social elements), but you feel they were uniquely valuable due to the value of victory / defeat in DUST vs other games that did not have a similar reward / cost system in place for their own games? DUST corps provide a feeling of tangible power that other games do not provide due to less mechanics to make social groups more powerful or at least able to exert more meaningful power. "Mind Blown" - CCP Rattati
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 13623	Posted - 2016.09.21 23:05:00 - [96] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: byte modal wrote: Speaking to loadouts and pride in ownership, acquiring and learning skills needed to use specific equipment give a sense of investment on property. It reinforces our notions of ownership and primes us to feel a need to protect our property (protecting our equipment through survival). That has always been another attraction of mine with EvE---the risk of loss through a severe death penalty. In the case of DUST, that was a great sense of immersion too; though it did have flaws IMHO. BPOs (as used in DUST) directly contradicted that notion of investment and risk. What risk is there with an infinite stock of equipment? I am not going to derail with an argument of balance or other subtleties involved as to why this was a benefit to some or not; I'm just speaking on a philosophical view of an element that countered what, in my view, is, in part the spirit of EvE and what was potentially the spirit of DUST. Bleh. On my phone and it's too early for this! I'll come back to finish my thoughts on skill progression. Mornin =/ Exactly, Byte. Once you can have an unlimited supply of a certain kind of gear, it reduces your investment in the fight and also means that win or lose you still get paid substantially thanks to not having to replace lost gear. If Project Nova were to have industry elements that blueprints could be used for, and BPOs worked like they do in EVE Online, I would be fine with them. I agree wholeheartedly with this. BPOs, when done correctly, can be beneficial. In Eve Online, BPOs didn't create any problems with either the economy or the sense of "SELF" or ownership of the items they created because they all require an investment of materials to utilize them as well as investing ISK in acquiring them and using the facilities to process them. To me, the one feature that made Eve feel so unique is how intertwined the cluster has become at the industrial and economic level. When the battles of Asakai, B-R5RB, World War Bee, and many other such colossal battles took place in any part of the cluster, the New Eden economy lit up crazy as demand for goods increased and thus demand for materials needed to create such goods went up as well. It wasn't just battles either. Events like Hulkageddon (all 5 iterations of it), Burn Jita, Summer of Rage, etc. all had an impact on the economy and industry. How players in Eve Online behave today is a direct result of those events and battles even though the battles happened years ago. And don't get me started on the (in)famous Eve Bank scam. As an active Eve Online player myself with years experience playing through the economic and industrial mechanics of the game, I see no greater impact of our actions as the inhabitants of this cluster than what we have made in the military-industrial complex of New Eden. Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 13623	Posted - 2016.09.21 23:10:00 - [97] - Quote PS: Thank you Devs for talking to us again. It's so heartwarming to see you communicate with us. Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 13623	Posted - 2016.09.21 23:14:00 - [98] - Quote Aiwha Bait wrote: Sequal's Back wrote: Aiwha Bait wrote: Honestly, I feel like New Eden is unique because of how goddamn social it is, and DUST captured that so beautifully. Why is New Eden so social? I have no ***** idea, but it is for some reason. Same goes for DUST. DUST, for whatever reason, turned out to be the most social FPS ever. No idea why. Totally agree with you. The social aspect of Dust is what made it so unique. I and many others could spend hours without playing, only chatting and tweaking dropsuits. All the point s that Rattati said are true, but this one is the most important. Agree 100% w/ the last sentence. I cannot tell you how many hours I spent "playing" DUST w/ 1NC0R and my previous corp just shooting the in my **** MQ (griping about how uncomfortable the bed and couch looked, mostly), making autistic jokes, and laughing at all the poor bastards who got scamming in trade channels. Hours upon hours. Socialization. New Eden is the most social world in gaming. I remember my D-UNI lectures like it was only yesterday. https://youtu.be/TxhPry9Hbos?list=PLA5n7jSYr9XwFB-1MdUFVktjKx-ySHphB Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy
DUST Fiend 18630	Posted - 2016.09.22 00:09:00 - [99] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: byte modal wrote: Speaking to loadouts and pride in ownership, acquiring and learning skills needed to use specific equipment give a sense of investment on property. It reinforces our notions of ownership and primes us to feel a need to protect our property (protecting our equipment through survival). That has always been another attraction of mine with EvE---the risk of loss through a severe death penalty. In the case of DUST, that was a great sense of immersion too; though it did have flaws IMHO. BPOs (as used in DUST) directly contradicted that notion of investment and risk. What risk is there with an infinite stock of equipment? I am not going to derail with an argument of balance or other subtleties involved as to why this was a benefit to some or not; I'm just speaking on a philosophical view of an element that countered what, in my view, is, in part the spirit of EvE and what was potentially the spirit of DUST. Bleh. On my phone and it's too early for this! I'll come back to finish my thoughts on skill progression. Mornin =/ Exactly, Byte. Once you can have an unlimited supply of a certain kind of gear, it reduces your investment in the fight and also means that win or lose you still get paid substantially thanks to not having to replace lost gear. If Project Nova were to have industry elements that blueprints could be used for, and BPOs worked like they do in EVE Online, I would be fine with them. Eh, you had to die what like, thirteen quadrillion times to come out negative with a comparable ISK suit? I call bullshit, the bonus was minuscule and negligible in all but the noobliest of situations. Lord of all things salty, purveyor of gloomish doom and naysayer extraordinaire. AV Incubus Specialist, Ex Prometheus
byte modal 1010	Posted - 2016.09.22 00:30:00 - [100] - Quote For me, it's partly the principle of the matter. 1. It's counter to EvE estsblished culture. 2. It's a fundamental mistake that risks more problems in later development, especially if a merger with EvE markets had been established. 3. It creates a sense of short-term gain without risk---regardless of how small that perceived gain is. 4. It sets a precedent in the EvE universe of relatively immediate gratification changing the objective philosophy from time in, investment out and risk/ reward to short-sighted development trend chasing catering to a developing sense of right-now entitlement. You may disagree and that's fine; however, there are reasons for my believes. None of which are BS. If i argued just for the sake of being a contrarian, then you would be correct to call it for what that would be. That's not the case. At least for me. Thumb-typing in a Publix parking lot. For this. Sigh. I am depressed now lol. <3 kitten bacon taco (nom)

Justice Darling Horizons' Edge 264	Posted - 2016.09.22 01:12:00 - [101] - Quote Avallo Kantor wrote: Taking a quote from CCP LogicLoop: CCP LogicLoop wrote: On the Nova Discord channel earlier today. [4:48 PM] CCP Rattati: just assuring that the Nova team absolutely working on improving what you saw at fanfest [4:48 PM] CCP Rattati: especially on the feedback we got [4:49 PM] CCP Rattati: "looks like good fps gameplay, NOW WHAT" [4:49 PM] CCP Rattati: "not eve enough" [4:49 PM] CCP Rattati: etc [4:49 PM] CCP Rattati: we have been working on the "essence" of the game if you will [4:50 PM] CCP Rattati: uniqueness and setting [4:50 PM] CCP Rattati: it wouldn't be a new eden fps if there wasn't So this brings up, in my mind, an interesting point of discussion that warrants its own thread. What feature or features distill the universe of New Eden into a tangible form for you? How can somebody make a game that feels like it belongs in that universe, and what components are core to it's setting. I think that is a topic we would have the best shot of answering, and hopefully bring insight to the devs who read the forum (or at least LogicLoop if nobody else) To that end, I feel New Eden is best defined by its sense of Consequences. By that I mean that choices you make in the game have a weight and importance to them that have meaningful impact down the road. This is done by having them affect all levels and types of play, from the minor details of skill application defining your character, to the larger politics of entities that affect the power balance of space. New Eden's history is, in my opinion, defined by player action and the consequences those actions carried. DUST was able to achieve this through a number of ways, from the skill point system, to the ISK cost of suits, to the tug of war between Faction Warfare and Planetary Conquest. When these features fell flat for the players was only when that sense of consequence and impact was disrupted or began to ring hollow. Such as when people had enough money to not care about it, or when the FW battles seemed arbitrary and had little impact on the greater war, or when Planetary Conquest felt it had no real benefits aside from the fights it generated. To that end, I feel that any game that wants to feel like it belongs in New Eden needs things that tie together individual play experiences to feel like they are impacting a greater whole. There needs to be player progression that involves choice, not just a static level that dictates what you have for you. There needs to be an ability for player's moment to moment gameplay affect some meta aspect of their experience that goes beyond simple statistics. DUST did this with consumable fittings that impacted the player after a match. Activities need to be in place for a group of players to impact larger aspects of the world in a way that has some degree of persistance. DUST tried to do this via FW and PCs. Players need a variety of ways to impact other players beyond simple combat mechanics. This can be done via trade, industry, politics, or any other activity that touches upon the play experience of other players outside of matches. The world / universe needs to feel as if players can impact it in some way. Some aspect of the world needs to be able to be changed by player action. Such as ownership of a system, availability of resources, or generation of missions. All of the general points I laid above help to create a setting that is more distinctly New Eden, even if it lacks some of the more familiar trappings of EVE or DUST. The important things about New Eden and the experience players seek from it lie in a perception (not necessarily a reality) that their actions can ripple through the universe and some consequence of their actions affects future events which can be limited to themselves, a few others, or the entire cluster. I like all of these point's, I would say adding some kind of timed training system to really make it feel like EVE Online, it don't have to be every skill maybe on the lvl5's or something. Putting in an exp system based on "what you do" vrs the auto system based on implants and where you are on the war points board, not get me wrong the implants are/was nice. Maybe have units drop stuff when they die, nano hives, grenades ammo ect.. Loot system based on what was used in the match 100% of the time, not sure how many times i got stuff that was never used but I'm sure it was alot when it happen. That my two cents, hope it helps! It's like my mother always told me! Rana Rana Rana Rana Rana Rana , and codeine and god dammed it, you little mother!
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 1451	Posted - 2016.09.22 16:58:00 - [102] - Quote A while ago I picked up Fractured Space, a game where you captain battleships in a 5v5 MOBA style setting. It's very nice to play and enjoyable, but I miss a few things that I got used to in Eve and Dust: - The properties of each ship are fairly static. I can't tweak the loadout to fit my playstyle. I used to enjoy coming up with interesting ways to fit dropships (and to a lesser extent dropsuits) to make them useful in previously unexplored ways. This was my jam and it still is. I haven't been able to find any game that would satisfy this need. I want to use my out-of-game thinking to improve my in-game experience - not necessarily my in-game performance, but rather my enjoyment of the game. My LAV with a proto-rail and a damage amp diddn't change the meta of the game, but it did give me pleasure when an unaware dropship pilot or badly fitted HAV would fall prey to my machination. - There are no damage types. This was a driving factor of the meta in Dust. When Swarm Launchers were effective I investigated dropships with lots of shields, when there were problematic forgegunners on a map I swapped to armor. I really miss that dynamic. - I don't own any of the assets. I can unlock stuff, but the entity I receive is a class of ship, not a specific instance of it. The best kind of suits in Dust were the uniquely colored ones that were consumable. If you had 5 of them you would really protect them - that is if you had the courage to field them. In my opinion BPOs were a bad idea for Dust and I would've enjoyed more diverse consumable assets - preferably ones that are obtained through play as salvage rather than bought at a set price from the supermarket. Maybe a bit like randomly generated loot in games like Diablo, except that there's a much smaller number of possible assets. I have to admit that I don't really miss the character development part Dust. That was a gating mechanic at best and a money-making scheme at worst. The game became more enjoyable the less I had to think about my character's skills once I had most interesting things unlocked. I liked interacting with the assets in the inventory more than the character development. P.S.: Whatup?! This game is keeping my interest for way longer than it should.
Sylwester Dziewiecki Interregnum. 579	Posted - 2016.09.23 10:30:00 - [103] - Quote I'm missing one post in the topic. Well played. This is Skirmish v1.0
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 7850	Posted - 2016.09.23 16:44:00 - [104] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: - EPIC, and the world does not revolve around you, you are a tiny forgettable speck Soraya Xel made a good point on the Biomass podcast. Part of what makes EVE epic is that although everyone starts as a forgettable speck, it is possible to became famous, or infamous, and incredibly powerful. The movers and the shakers in EVE are better known than the NPC characters of EVE Lore. You can build organizations or effect events that effect large percentages of the game's population, weather it be building a powerful Corp/Alliance, developing a player run financial institution and/or scam, or organizing an event with hundreds of participants that everyone is talking about. Building your reputation can be part of the game, and it very much ties into both how Epic the game feels and the persistence of New Eden. DUST had this too, to a more limited extent. I know I got to experience squadding with people who got all excited to be playing with "Fox Gaden". I managed to make myself relatively famous without even having to be good. I mean, I was good at what I was famous for, but I was a terrible shot. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Mobius Wyvern Night Theifs Curatores Veritatis Alliance 8416	Posted - 2016.09.23 17:06:00 - [105] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: - EPIC, and the world does not revolve around you, you are a tiny forgettable speck Soraya Xel made a good point on the Biomass podcast. Part of what makes EVE epic is that although everyone starts as a forgettable speck, it is possible to became famous, or infamous, and incredibly powerful. The movers and the shakers in EVE are better known than the NPC characters of EVE Lore. You can build organizations or effect events that effect large percentages of the game's population, weather it be building a powerful Corp/Alliance, developing a player run financial institution and/or scam, or organizing an event with hundreds of participants that everyone is talking about. Building your reputation can be part of the game, and it very much ties into both how Epic the game feels and the persistence of New Eden. DUST had this too, to a more limited extent. I know I got to experience squadding with people who got all excited to be playing with "Fox Gaden". I managed to make myself relatively famous without even having to be good. I mean, I was good at what I was famous for, but I was a terrible shot. That just reminds me of all the people who would join squads with my friends and I and say things like "Wait, you're Cat Merc from the forums? Your voice is REALLY deep!". That was always fun. Or how it became nearly impossible to get a team going for Gallente Faction Warfare without Sgt Kirk being online because everyone was obsessed with having him lead. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Maken Tosch Dust University Ivy League 13626	Posted - 2016.09.23 23:15:00 - [106] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: - EPIC, and the world does not revolve around you, you are a tiny forgettable speck Soraya Xel made a good point on the Biomass podcast. Part of what makes EVE epic is that although everyone starts as a forgettable speck, it is possible to became famous, or infamous, and incredibly powerful. The movers and the shakers in EVE are better known than the NPC characters of EVE Lore. You can build organizations or effect events that effect large percentages of the game's population, weather it be building a powerful Corp/Alliance, developing a player run financial institution and/or scam, or organizing an event with hundreds of participants that everyone is talking about. Building your reputation can be part of the game, and it very much ties into both how Epic the game feels and the persistence of New Eden. DUST had this too, to a more limited extent. I know I got to experience squadding with people who got all excited to be playing with "Fox Gaden". I managed to make myself relatively famous without even having to be good. I mean, I was good at what I was famous for, but I was a terrible shot. That just reminds me of all the people who would join squads with my friends and I and say things like "Wait, you're Cat Merc from the forums? Your voice is REALLY deep!". That was always fun. Or how it became nearly impossible to get a team going for Gallente Faction Warfare without Sgt Kirk being online because everyone was obsessed with having him lead. <---- Famous O.G. Nova Knifer Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy


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