We need Quafe

@Rattati - Will we be getting any BPO's from Dust in Nova? I really want my C3P0 Logi (Shaman) back

To draw a line, I do not believe it's P2W. For me at least, that's not the issue. As you said: without the skill and knowledge gained from experience in playing the game, those skipping in line will be destroyed.

That right there is at the heart of my point. I've gained experience through the grind, or "leveling" as you put it. That experience carries with it a sense of pride and history. EvE has history. It's persistent. That spirit has always been what attracted me. The permanence of skill histories is (was?) a small reflection of that persistent universe---my own small reflection as a spec in that great universe.

Training skills does not prevent me from enjoying the game. It just opens doors to new or more efficient ways of enjoyment; however, the knowledge comes through the wait. The wait also creates anticipation. When it's over, it's a genuine sense of accomplishment that will stay with me throughout my EvE game---and all the in-game experience that has accumulated as a result. Not anymore.

That is why EvE no longer has the attraction for me that it once did. It's not up to you to argue that my principles are wrong. It's absolutely irrelevant that you don't understand. If you enjoy things as they are, then by all means enjoy it. I am not going to rock the boat. I'll just eventually stop playing if other elements of the game can't pick up the slack for me.

I'm pretty sure I've drifted far off topic. Sorry OP!

I'm pretty sure I've drifted far off topic. Sorry OP!

Not at all! What is -not- the feeling of New Eden is just as important as the feeling of the game.

You wrote an amazing paragraph on the parts of New Eden that make / made EVE an important experience to you, and I very much enjoyed reading it.

As a paintjob, not an unlimited-use asset.

BPO was awesome!!! I want my suits back

- REAL, endless character, names have a meaning

they were the best way to make money

Not true, farming alt accounts was the best way to make money (aside from any PC tomfoolery).

1 hour= 11 million ISK

If you were hardcore about it you could do it twice a day, 2 hours= 22 million ISK

Seriously? With all the popular stories of people "buying win" and then getting facerolled by ships nowhere near their cost people STILL won't drop the pay-to-win ****?

You can't buy win in EVE Online. I've seen dozens of people in my 8 years in EVE playing on characters with crazy SP counts that they bought off the character bazaar. They've all been childishly easy to take down.

In the most infamous story of them all, a lawyer dumped $3300 dollars on PLEX and only got a humiliating lossmail and yet another Goonswarm scam story for his trouble.

Even in non-combat professions you're just going to get creamed by people with experience. If you don't have years of practice to draw from you are going to be easy fodder for people who do whether in PvP, marketing, industry, or even exploration. There's just no contest.

EVE is not a level-based MMO. Your SP and ISO have no bearing on how good you are at managing your ship and making informed decisions.

I can be your logi, but just once...

1 hour= 11 million ISK

That might be wrong, how much ISK did a new clone start with in 2013?

I like when someone is defending 'this game is not p2w game', there is so much spirit in it.

So, you saying that if someone is able to buy 50-75kk SP character, or one with all SP and then train on it for 6-8 months without worrying that he gone run out of ISK(ever) is somehow at worst position, then someone that was training his character from being and many times struggled to get ISK for basic fittings?

Let's be honest. You do not know about peoples that were successful with they $ investment in to the game if they did not fail at some point, and became "a lawyer dumped $3300 dollars on PLEX and only got a humiliating lossmail" kind of story. There is a saying which has a lot of truth I think "the rich people do not like the company", meaning that if someone is successful at what he is doing, he will not betray tactics of it, or talk about it openly, otherwise he will have competition.

Side story: Once my old corporation meet some oligarch from Moscow in one of Esoteria systems; he was renting it from C0ven. The thing is that one guy being able to renting entire system just for himself was already impressive. So what he was doing with it was even more impressive, unimaginably impressive - the guy was producing titans - he had something like 5 of them at the stock. He was managing entire corporation of alts by himself, to fly titans, to do research, component production, everything except mining. But he gave this job to some Romanian locals that were even delivering them to him(nice guys). Once asked why is he doing all of it, I think he responded that he likes the game, and building titans is cool, or some sort of this.
The moral of this one is that guy living at the corner of galaxy, a life we all know from producing frigs at early stages of our days in Eve, but doing stuff that everyone wish to do at they end-game had some pleasant time playing Eve. Did he spend some $ on his dream, yes he did, so can we say that at some point he pay to win Eve?

No, they were terrible! They basically became required to be competetive in Dust because they were the best way to make money. You should NEVER under ANY circumstances have magically unlimited gear that exempts you from suffering loss.

Let's not forget the dark ages after the EVE Gate closed and most planets lost their technology because they did not have the infrastructure to maintain it. In New Eden you have four factions that independently clawed their way back into space. (Well, Caldari and Gallente were not completely independent in their development as they were both in the same system and could communicate.) This results if four different technological development tracks, and even when they share/steal technology from another faction they have their own take on it.

Then of course you have that fifth faction that never lost their hold on space but became extremely eccentric. (Didn't clone tech come from them?)

I like that in New Eden you can usually tell which faction designed a piece of tech by just looking at it. They have such distinctive styles of design and architecture, as well as completely different social structures.

Seriously? With all the popular stories of people "buying win" and then getting facerolled by ships nowhere near their cost people STILL won't drop the pay-to-win ****?

You can't buy win in EVE Online. I've seen dozens of people in my 8 years in EVE playing on characters with crazy SP counts that they bought off the character bazaar. They've all been childishly easy to take down.

In the most infamous story of them all, a lawyer dumped $3300 dollars on PLEX and only got a humiliating lossmail and yet another Goonswarm scam story for his trouble.

Even in non-combat professions you're just going to get creamed by people with experience. If you don't have years of practice to draw from you are going to be easy fodder for people who do whether in PvP, marketing, industry, or even exploration. There's just no contest.

EVE is not a level-based MMO. Your SP and ISO have no bearing on how good you are at managing your ship and making informed decisions.

To draw a line, I do not believe it's P2W. For me at least, that's not the issue. As you said: without the skill and knowledge gained from experience in playing the game, those skipping in line will be destroyed.

That right there is at the heart of my point. I've gained experience through the grind, or "leveling" as you put it. That experience carries with it a sense of pride and history. EvE has history. It's persistent. That spirit has always been what attracted me. The permanence of skill histories is (was?) a small reflection of that persistent universe---my own small reflection as a spec in that great universe.

Training skills does not prevent me from enjoying the game. It just opens doors to new or more efficient ways of enjoyment; however, the knowledge comes through the wait. The wait also creates anticipation. When it's over, it's a genuine sense of accomplishment that will stay with me throughout my EvE game---and all the in-game experience that has accumulated as a result. Not anymore.

That is why EvE no longer has the attraction for me that it once did. It's not up to you to argue that my principles are wrong. It's absolutely irrelevant that you don't understand. If you enjoy things as they are, then by all means enjoy it. I am not going to rock the boat. I'll just eventually stop playing if other elements of the game can't pick up the slack for me.

I'm pretty sure I've drifted far off topic. Sorry OP!

No, they were terrible! They basically became required to be competetive in Dust because they were the best way to make money. You should NEVER under ANY circumstances have magically unlimited gear that exempts you from suffering loss.

You really think he's competing with full-time industrial moguls? Yeah, he's doing what he loves with real money, but he's hardly dominating the economy or anything.

I've bought multiple Game Time Codes in the past and used them to set up ships that probably got me more than one kill against people who earned all the ISK for their fittings in-game. However in more of those cases I've lost those ships to people with more experience than me.

What I'm saying is the issue isn't as black-and-white as many people argue it is.