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Could we get a shield logi?

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Mobius Wyvern Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 6139	Posted - 2015.04.19 19:34:00 - [61] - Quote The Dark Cloud wrote: Would be nice if we could get a shield recharger tool and a logi that matches that. Maybe change the Caldari Logi bonus from nanohives to something like this: -Caldari Logistic +10% additional range for shield recharger tools and +5% shield regen rate per lvl Shield recharger tool lineup with name, dropsuit shield regen, vehicle shield regen and range (in that order): STD: -Shield recharger tool/ 20HP/50HP/ 10m -Flux shield recharger tool/ same stats as the basic but 15m range ADV: -CLT-2 shield recharger tool/30HP/75HP/15m -CLT-5 axis shield recharger tool/ 22.5HP/100HP/15m -CLT-8 Triage shield recharger tool/ 37.5HP/60HP/15m PRO: -Kaalikiota shield recharger tool/35HP/90HP/15m -Ishukone Flux shield recharger tool/35HP/90HP/22.5m -Wyrkomi Triage shield recharger tool/44HP/75HP/15.m -Focussed shield recharger tool/62.5HP/ 110HP/7.5m The base regen stats are low cause when pointed at a dropsuit it stacks with their native shield regen. Cause neither do i or the competetive community see a point in having a bonus to nanohives cause we can carry 6 of those allready at ADV lvl. It would make the suit aswell more popular cause if we are honest here all the other logis have something to keep you going while the caldari only has ammo, which every 1 can now carry tons of it to begin with. The game is in serious need of this. I support Keshava for Gallente Specialist HAV R.I.P. Kesha
The Dark Cloud The Rainbow Effect 4496	Posted - 2015.04.19 23:02:00 - [62] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: I've heard it suggested that the Shield Transporter should be an active mod (new code required) That would function, very simply put, as an active mod that created a "reverse Flux" effect for a limited time span. Thus restoring friendly shields by a substantial amount with an AoE centered around the Logi player for a brief span before going back on cool down. This would allow for a unique more mobility / hit and run playstyle for shields (vs armor) while still giving enhanced utility. It would also be a very active tactical role because the timing of use would be very key in certain contexts. Sounds interesting enough for me so i bite. Just let it bring up your wrist interface (like with a cloak field) and once you activate it it generates a field around that logi (nanohive effects any one?) and restores shields on yourself and any 1 whos close to you as long you are holding the wrist interface up. When you drop it/energy runs out (same like with cloaks) the field deactivates. That way you could regen shields of even more then 2 guys at once for a limited amount of time. It would make a great assaulting tool. Edit: give the cal logi then a bonus for duration and cooldown time instead of the silly nanohive bonus. I make the scrubs scream and the vets cry.
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 790	Posted - 2015.04.20 22:18:00 - [63] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: I've heard it suggested that the Shield Transporter should be an active mod (new code required) That would function, very simply put, as an active mod that created a "reverse Flux" effect for a limited time span. Thus restoring friendly shields by a substantial amount with an AoE centered around the Logi player for a brief span before going back on cool down. This would allow for a unique more mobility / hit and run playstyle for shields (vs armor) while still giving enhanced utility. It would also be a very active tactical role because the timing of use would be very key in certain contexts. Even just an activated piece of equipment would be fine. Doesn't need programming or code for an active module - until we want to go there. I would simply have a recharge timer similar to the active scanner. Use once, must wait, then activate again. possible radius expansion, but a one time inverse flux would be great. No new animation. Take the cloak module and use that for the in screen animation and hud view so we don't have to build a new model. Could have a pulse module and pulsed 3x in 6 seconds allowing the carrier to run through a group :) The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 18387	Posted - 2015.04.20 23:28:00 - [64] - Quote The Dark Cloud wrote: Would be nice if we could get a shield recharger tool and a logi that matches that. Maybe change the Caldari Logi bonus from nanohives to something like this: -Caldari Logistic +10% additional range for shield recharger tools and +5% shield regen rate per lvl Shield recharger tool lineup with name, dropsuit shield regen, vehicle shield regen and range (in that order): STD: -Shield recharger tool/ 20HP/50HP/ 10m -Flux shield recharger tool/ same stats as the basic but 15m range ADV: -CLT-2 shield recharger tool/30HP/75HP/15m -CLT-5 axis shield recharger tool/ 22.5HP/100HP/15m -CLT-8 Triage shield recharger tool/ 37.5HP/60HP/15m PRO: -Kaalikiota shield recharger tool/35HP/90HP/15m -Ishukone Flux shield recharger tool/35HP/90HP/22.5m -Wyrkomi Triage shield recharger tool/44HP/75HP/15.m -Focussed shield recharger tool/62.5HP/ 110HP/7.5m The base regen stats are low cause when pointed at a dropsuit it stacks with their native shield regen. Cause neither do i or the competetive community see a point in having a bonus to nanohives cause we can carry 6 of those allready at ADV lvl. It would make the suit aswell more popular cause if we are honest here all the other logis have something to keep you going while the caldari only has ammo, which every 1 can now carry tons of it to begin with. Both the Caldari and Minmatar Logi should have Shield Rep Boosts. The Amarr and Gallente should have their Armour Repairer Boosts. GÇ£That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die.GÇ¥ -The Nameless City
Zaria Min Deir 0uter.Heaven Back and Forth 1352	Posted - 2015.04.21 03:26:00 - [65] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Cross Atu wrote: I've heard it suggested that the Shield Transporter should be an active mod (new code required) That would function, very simply put, as an active mod that created a "reverse Flux" effect for a limited time span. Thus restoring friendly shields by a substantial amount with an AoE centered around the Logi player for a brief span before going back on cool down. This would allow for a unique more mobility / hit and run playstyle for shields (vs armor) while still giving enhanced utility. It would also be a very active tactical role because the timing of use would be very key in certain contexts. Even just an activated piece of equipment would be fine. Doesn't need programming or code for an active module - until we want to go there. I would simply have a recharge timer similar to the active scanner. Use once, must wait, then activate again. possible radius expansion, but a one time inverse flux would be great. No new animation. Take the cloak module and use that for the in screen animation and hud view so we don't have to build a new model. Could have a pulse module and pulsed 3x in 6 seconds allowing the carrier to run through a group :) The idea I've discussed with Cross previously was in fact an active piece of equipment... And that is what he means here, actually. The shield version of the reptool I envision would function differently from the armour reptool, mainly because I believe we shouldn't be trying to make armour and shield tanking function identically. Instead of being a lock on target, continuous HP repair while held, the shield rep tool would have an area of effect and a duration of effect, followed by a cooldown, similar to how the scanner functions. The effect itself would be the removal of shield regen delays and a reasonable (percentage based) boost to the native repair rate of the affected suit(s). This would allow the shield logi to improve the shield repair of his nearby teammates in bursts, while free to engage in other actions between them (while on cooldown). Armour and shield tanking lend themselves to different combat styles, and I think an armour supoort logi should work differently from a shield repair logi, too. The term "Reverse Flux" being thrown out there makes me think of an even more radical difference in how the two types of rep tools could work. Where the armour rep tool provides a steady stream of repairs for as long as it is locked on and active, the shield repair tool would provide an instant shield booster effect, restoring full shields in a pulse (with maybe a limited duration recharge delay reduction), with a cooldown/charge mechanic to limit it. Very intriguing. Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4440	Posted - 2015.04.21 04:26:00 - [66] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Cross Atu wrote: I've heard it suggested that the Shield Transporter should be an active mod (new code required) That would function, very simply put, as an active mod that created a "reverse Flux" effect for a limited time span. Thus restoring friendly shields by a substantial amount with an AoE centered around the Logi player for a brief span before going back on cool down. This would allow for a unique more mobility / hit and run playstyle for shields (vs armor) while still giving enhanced utility. It would also be a very active tactical role because the timing of use would be very key in certain contexts. Even just an activated piece of equipment would be fine. Doesn't need programming or code for an active module - until we want to go there. I would simply have a recharge timer similar to the active scanner. Use once, must wait, then activate again. possible radius expansion, but a one time inverse flux would be great. No new animation. Take the cloak module and use that for the in screen animation and hud view so we don't have to build a new model. Could have a pulse module and pulsed 3x in 6 seconds allowing the carrier to run through a group :) So I have been informed that my vernacular is non-standard. In other words I think of all things that can be slotted into a frame as mods. It seems this has caused some confusion so I'd like to clear that up. The mod I described was meant to be an equipment mod. I hope that helps reduce any muddle I may have caused. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 795	Posted - 2015.04.23 18:05:00 - [67] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Cross Atu wrote: I've heard it suggested that the Shield Transporter should be an active mod (new code required) That would function, very simply put, as an active mod that created a "reverse Flux" effect for a limited time span. Thus restoring friendly shields by a substantial amount with an AoE centered around the Logi player for a brief span before going back on cool down. This would allow for a unique more mobility / hit and run playstyle for shields (vs armor) while still giving enhanced utility. It would also be a very active tactical role because the timing of use would be very key in certain contexts. Even just an activated piece of equipment would be fine. Doesn't need programming or code for an active module - until we want to go there. I would simply have a recharge timer similar to the active scanner. Use once, must wait, then activate again. possible radius expansion, but a one time inverse flux would be great. No new animation. Take the cloak module and use that for the in screen animation and hud view so we don't have to build a new model. Could have a pulse module and pulsed 3x in 6 seconds allowing the carrier to run through a group :) The idea I've discussed with Cross previously was in fact an active piece of equipment... And that is what he means here, actually. The shield version of the reptool I envision would function differently from the armour reptool, mainly because I believe we shouldn't be trying to make armour and shield tanking function identically. Instead of being a lock on target, continuous HP repair while held, the shield rep tool would have an area of effect and a duration of effect, followed by a cooldown, similar to how the scanner functions. The effect itself would be the removal of shield regen delays and a reasonable (percentage based) boost to the native repair rate of the affected suit(s). This would allow the shield logi to improve the shield repair of his nearby teammates in bursts, while free to engage in other actions between them (while on cooldown). Armour and shield tanking lend themselves to different combat styles, and I think an armour supoort logi should work differently from a shield repair logi, too. The term "Reverse Flux" being thrown out there makes me think of an even more radical difference in how the two types of rep tools could work. Where the armour rep tool provides a steady stream of repairs for as long as it is locked on and active, the shield repair tool would provide an instant shield booster effect, restoring full shields in a pulse (with maybe a limited duration recharge delay reduction), with a cooldown/charge mechanic to limit it. Very intriguing. o7 When I read the term "flux" my mind just went right to the grenade as an animation and method - explosive shield boost. But I can see now more of what was meant. Thanks for the clarification. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
The Dark Cloud The Rainbow Effect 4579	Posted - 2015.04.23 18:30:00 - [68] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Cross Atu wrote: I've heard it suggested that the Shield Transporter should be an active mod (new code required) That would function, very simply put, as an active mod that created a "reverse Flux" effect for a limited time span. Thus restoring friendly shields by a substantial amount with an AoE centered around the Logi player for a brief span before going back on cool down. This would allow for a unique more mobility / hit and run playstyle for shields (vs armor) while still giving enhanced utility. It would also be a very active tactical role because the timing of use would be very key in certain contexts. Even just an activated piece of equipment would be fine. Doesn't need programming or code for an active module - until we want to go there. I would simply have a recharge timer similar to the active scanner. Use once, must wait, then activate again. possible radius expansion, but a one time inverse flux would be great. No new animation. Take the cloak module and use that for the in screen animation and hud view so we don't have to build a new model. Could have a pulse module and pulsed 3x in 6 seconds allowing the carrier to run through a group :) So I have been informed that my vernacular is non-standard. In other words I think of all things that can be slotted into a frame as mods. It seems this has caused some confusion so I'd like to clear that up. The mod I described was meant to be an equipment mod. I hope that helps reduce any muddle I may have caused. Quite obvious to me, cloak fields are essentally aswell "active modules" in that regard. Just throw that thing into the game and we get a step closer to much more interesting gameplay as just "stack plates and damage mods". I make the scrubs scream and the vets cry.
Vesta Opalus Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 630	Posted - 2015.04.23 18:54:00 - [69] - Quote The Dark Cloud wrote: Elpedo Hughes wrote: Seriously though I don't support it as a armour and shield tanked player with 2 logis with 1 shield and 1 armour rep tool would be OP (hence my NAMELESS post) I would mind a shield booster like on tanks though. Ya know that the basic shield regen on armor suits are extremely bad? It would still make more sense to stick a 2nd reptool on him so his uber buffed armor tank regens quicker. Think of it this way: one armor rep tool + 1 shield rep tool = better defense against different damage types through your rep tool regen.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 18459	Posted - 2015.04.23 20:44:00 - [70] - Quote Don't know if I am for the "Reverse Flux" but personal Shield Injector sounds cool. It's the ki.nd of thing I would love to have myself for an Armour Suit. Personal Shield Injector/ Emergency Nanite Repair Systems Kit. GÇ£That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die.GÇ¥ -The Nameless City

Nova Knife Professor Nova's Super Ethical Auction House 2577	Posted - 2015.04.23 22:51:00 - [71] - Quote Back in the day, there was an idea that you could hit someone with a shield rep tool, that instead of giving them them a set amount, you gave them back their own native HP regen at zero delay while you were zapping them with energy for their shield. The reason this idea seemed more reasonable than just pure HP to shields, is that it prevented "bricktanks" & Logi combos from being unreasonably good, yet still offered a pretty comparable (albeit lower) amount of survivability support to armor "bricktanks" with their own logi support, as the tradeoff was less HP for more mobility, etc. The downside was that multiple logi would not stack, as armor can. Which is a pretty significant difference.
Vesta Opalus Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 630	Posted - 2015.04.24 03:34:00 - [72] - Quote Nova Knife wrote: Back in the day, there was an idea that you could hit someone with a shield rep tool, that instead of giving them them a set amount, you gave them back their own native HP regen at zero delay while you were zapping them with energy for their shield. The reason this idea seemed more reasonable than just pure HP to shields, is that it prevented "bricktanks" & Logi combos from being unreasonably good, yet still offered a pretty comparable (albeit lower) amount of survivability support to armor "bricktanks" with their own logi support, as the tradeoff was less HP for more mobility, etc. The downside was that multiple logi would not stack, as armor can. Which is a pretty significant difference. It also means that due to the low native shield regen of most suits and the % base functioning of energizers the shield rep tool would be crap on everything but maybe a caldari heavy or cal scout. Not to mention very difficult to fit something to utilize the shield rep tool for anything under prototype because of the stupidly lopsided energizer/recharger CPU costs. Also shield suits would have to fit specifically to work with the rep tool, then be worthless without it due to low HP, whereas armor stacking is still very much functional for a while without a repper present. Without significant rework to how shield suits and shield energizers and rechargers work, I would hate to see a shield rep tool like this.
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 809	Posted - 2015.04.24 06:49:00 - [73] - Quote There is no reason for this to not be a strait rep the same way armor reppers work. You want parity -- you'll have to accept that. If armor reps aren't unbalanced then a strait shield rep wouldn't be unbalanced.
DJINN Jecture Templar of the Glowing Blade 349	Posted - 2015.04.24 13:23:00 - [74] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: DJINN Jecture wrote: This would be OP, for instance your team is that fricken good that they take no armor damage, so you switch to your shield rep tool from your armor rep tool, then drop them some Gauged hives to supplement their bullets. Unstoppable force! Really? Present your evidence. Oh sorry, that was a quote unreferenced from CB CCP. We were told shield logi was not possible in dust and broken, my above statement was not confirmed by anything other than what was said. This said it was based on one tool for both at the same time not separate tools. Oh and btw, the above comment also is thick with sarcasm, as evidence "fricken" and "your team". IKR. *-ç +æ+Ä ß+¦ß¦+Gé¦ß+¡ !!!* *ß¦äß¦â-à*
DJINN Jecture Templar of the Glowing Blade 349	Posted - 2015.04.24 13:43:00 - [75] - Quote The Dark Cloud wrote: Cross Atu wrote: I've heard it suggested that the Shield Transporter should be an active mod (new code required) That would function, very simply put, as an active mod that created a "reverse Flux" effect for a limited time span. Thus restoring friendly shields by a substantial amount with an AoE centered around the Logi player for a brief span before going back on cool down. This would allow for a unique more mobility / hit and run playstyle for shields (vs armor) while still giving enhanced utility. It would also be a very active tactical role because the timing of use would be very key in certain contexts. Sounds interesting enough for me so i bite. Just let it bring up your wrist interface (like with a cloak field) and once you activate it it generates a field around that logi (nanohive effects any one?) and restores shields on yourself and any 1 whos close to you as long you are holding the wrist interface up. When you drop it/energy runs out (same like with cloaks) the field deactivates. That way you could regen shields of even more then 2 guys at once for a limited amount of time. It would make a great assaulting tool. Edit: give the cal logi then a bonus for duration and cooldown time instead of the silly nanohive bonus. Seems reasonable, but I am reminded of people running around with bubble shields (yes I understand this isn't a shield) and tanking a good amount of bullets and not only do they not go down but the logi stays up as well safe in his bubble, so this idea may be broken without more work. *-ç +æ+Ä ß+¦ß¦+Gé¦ß+¡ !!!* *ß¦äß¦â-à*
Gyn Wallace Ready to Play 341	Posted - 2015.04.24 14:30:00 - [76] - Quote Parity with the numbers would make shield tanks superior, since you don't die when you run out of shields. The potential for OPness isn't in the sense of shield tanks vs. armor tanks, but in the sense that when dual-tanked, you no longer have the option of fitting the right weapon to do the job of burning though a sentinel who is either shield OR armor tanked. With a shield rep tool available, I'd plan on carrying both with my logi, and teaming up with another logi and two dual tanked sentinels.* Both logis would run with weapons out, but one switches to a shield rep tool when we make contact. If the contact is a bit heavier, both logies switch to rep tools as needed. With a Cal logi repping shields and a armor repping logi (whether its still the Min or becomes the Gal or Amarr bonus) repping armor, what weapon will the enemy use to punch through the reps? If the enemy is carrying lots of scrambler rifles, the Cal logi switches to his armor rep tool. If the enemy is carrying lots of combat rifles, both logis switch to shield rep tools. The potential for OPness isn't as much about shield vs. armor tanking, as the potential for dual tanking and dual reps. That's potentially much harder to counter than a pair of armor tanked sentinels and a pair of armor repping logis, which can get chewed up pretty easily by mass drivers and rail rifles. Switching to a loadout to counter a shield tanked small sentinel/logi squad is harder than it is for their logis to switch rep tools. *Without damage resistance modules on drop suits, I don't see a disadvantage for dual tanking, other than the opportunity cost; unlike the weakness of dual tanking in Eve Online, instead of focusing on a singular tank. The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4515	Posted - 2015.04.24 15:36:00 - [77] - Quote Gyn Wallace wrote: Parity with the numbers would make shield tanks superior, since you don't die when you run out of shields. The potential for OPness isn't in the sense of shield tanks vs. armor tanks, but in the sense that when dual-tanked, you no longer have the option of fitting the right weapon to do the job of burning though a sentinel who is either shield OR armor tanked. With a shield rep tool available, I'd plan on carrying both with my logi, and teaming up with another logi and two dual tanked sentinels.* Both logis would run with weapons out, but one switches to a shield rep tool when we make contact. If the contact is a bit heavier, both logies switch to rep tools as needed. With a Cal logi repping shields and a armor repping logi (whether its still the Min or becomes the Gal or Amarr bonus) repping armor, what weapon will the enemy use to punch through the reps? If the enemy is carrying lots of scrambler rifles, the Cal logi switches to his armor rep tool. If the enemy is carrying lots of combat rifles, both logis switch to shield rep tools. The potential for OPness isn't as much about shield vs. armor tanking, as the potential for dual tanking and dual reps. That's potentially much harder to counter than a pair of armor tanked sentinels and a pair of armor repping logis, which can get chewed up pretty easily by mass drivers and rail rifles. Switching to a loadout to counter a shield tanked small sentinel/logi squad is harder than it is for their logis to switch rep tools. Without damage resistance modules on drop suits, I don't see a disadvantage for dual tanking, other than the opportunity cost; unlike the weakness of dual tanking in Eve Online, instead of focusing on a singular tank. Your point is well made and I think you are spot on with regards to where we could see this over performing. That being said I can think of several counters to this group off the top of my head, before I list them let me say that each is assuming the coordinated action of more than one merc, but as they are counters to the coordinated action of several mercs that seems entirely appropriate to me. The first major aspect is alpha damage, conceptually speaking the counter to sustained eHP via rergen is alpha. The second aspect is Splash, against a tightly packed group splash becomes more effective. The third is dictating engagement*, this is largely defined by range, mobility, and eWar. Some examples; Counter the 4 man heavy logi combo with a HAV or DS. Even with double reps and the sentinel damage resistance the squad is not going to survive open conflict with a blaster Maddy or missile DS. Use sniper or LR fire to pin down the squad or destroy it. Add a forge gunner to prevent use of vehicles and add even more OHK potential. If they are in a closed environment such as the Gal socket or the Cal "train" deploy fire from above with REs, MDs, PLCs, timed Flux + Locus strikes. The Logi cannot readily keep cover or hide behind the heavy when being attacked from above. Employ talented NK scouts, damped and fast these strikes could wipe the logi off the board regardless of reps. Lacking scouts assaults with myo/melee fits could fulfill a similar role. For those with high gun game use of the Scram or Bolt pistols to headshot opposing forces is highly effective. Lacking high precision aiming use of coordinated commando damage provides a similar net effect, a bonused shotgun or PLC is going to be hard to rep through, 2-3 in rapid succession is withering. If your squad is finding their squad too tough to crack due to relative gun game, composition, or socket layout use 'soft counters' by keeping them scanned as targets of opportunity (one cannot be mobile and entrenched simultaneously) and work around them to claim other objectives thus counter balancing their effect on attaining the win and giving any other squads in the game with more applicable composition the chance to counter the 'heavy squad'. If all else fails, remain effective in the overall battle and earn an OB (side note here, I think the price on those should come down a bit). On a closing note, none of the above is a guaranteed win against a talented squad, but even with shield reps in the game a double rep squad is not a guaranteed win either and the closer we can come to encounters being down to A) Player skill B) Player choice (i.e. which tools to bring to the field and where/when to employ them) the better off the overall game will be in my view. However, your point also underscores for me the value of having shield reps be a cloak style active mod rather than a lock on style mod like the armor rep. 0.02 ISK Cross CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
The Dark Cloud The Rainbow Effect 4587	Posted - 2015.04.24 17:47:00 - [78] - Quote Still dont see a reason why this shouldnt happend. Yesterday i actually managed to get into a ambush where the opposition had a full squad with amarr assaults and repping logis. The proto logis could latch onto two assaults, constantly repping them like mad (with over 900HP armor). My only choice was to sit at distance with a laser rifle and kill the logis on open field once they where stupid enough to get out of cover. However i still got killed cause the assaults closed in, i had to reload and got murdered. We have armor reps that have a range of ~30m, heal 93HP/s and can lock onto 2 players at once. Oh yeah another thing is that particular squad earned 3 orbitals in a ambush with that method. Now how should a full shield tanked squad (for example caldari) deal with this situation? The enemy assaults used scramblers which tear shields apart like nothing, the enemy has more health and higher DPS due to damage mods beeing put in the highslots. If you shot them while they keep peeking out to take damage you actively contribute to their WP generation. Armor damage= WP for the minlogi. So the armor squad has the advantage of: -the much better weapon -much higher damage output -significant higher HP and HP regen due to minlogis repping them -better overall resistance vs most weapons cause there is no +20% rifle vs armor (except the massdriver) -insane WP farming for orbitals Now lets see what the shield tanked squad has: -mobility -higher regen without a logi (when you can manage not to take damage) The advantages of armor outweight the advantages that shields offer by miles. I make the scrubs scream and the vets cry.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 1026	Posted - 2015.04.24 22:14:00 - [79] - Quote CalLogi hive bonus is awesome. I could use some cpu and pg. I'd love a sidearm tho. Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
Imp Smash Molon Labe. 812	Posted - 2015.04.25 00:37:00 - [80] - Quote Gyn Wallace wrote: Parity with the numbers would make shield tanks superior, since you don't die when you run out of shields. The potential for OPness isn't in the sense of shield tanks vs. armor tanks, but in the sense that when dual-tanked, you no longer have the option of fitting the right weapon to do the job of burning though a sentinel who is either shield OR armor tanked. With a shield rep tool available, I'd plan on carrying both with my logi, and teaming up with another logi and two dual tanked sentinels.* Both logis would run with weapons out, but one switches to a shield rep tool when we make contact. If the contact is a bit heavier, both logies switch to rep tools as needed. With a Cal logi repping shields and a armor repping logi (whether its still the Min or becomes the Gal or Amarr bonus) repping armor, what weapon will the enemy use to punch through the reps? If the enemy is carrying lots of scrambler rifles, the Cal logi switches to his armor rep tool. If the enemy is carrying lots of combat rifles, both logis switch to shield rep tools. The potential for OPness isn't as much about shield vs. armor tanking, as the potential for dual tanking and dual reps. That's potentially much harder to counter than a pair of armor tanked sentinels and a pair of armor repping logis, which can get chewed up pretty easily by mass drivers and rail rifles. Switching to a loadout to counter a shield tanked small sentinel/logi squad is harder than it is for their logis to switch rep tools. Without damage resistance modules on drop suits, I don't see a disadvantage for dual tanking, other than the opportunity cost; unlike the weakness of dual tanking in Eve Online, instead of focusing on a singular tank. Well, there are a few caveats to that. You are correct that running out of armor results in death where as the case is not necessarily so with shields. And you are correct that it would be harder to take advantage of the type of damage a weapon does. However, a situation where a shield rep tool functioned just like an armor reptool would not be so black and white. I would argue the consequences of running out of shield and armor to actually be closer than one may think. At face value you would think that the consequences for running out of armor are way worse -- and in fact I have argued that exact point in other situations. However when referencing repping a tank under fire you have to consider the type of suit. For an Armor stacked Amarr Sent shields really won't matter. Better to just have an armor rep on them as even explosives (which are generally lower DPS than rifles) will out DPS said shield reptool especially as their shield reserve is relatively small. However for a Shield stacked Cal sent -- once the Sent runs out of shield he/she is almost* as dead as if they had run out of armor. As a Cal sent I have survived running out of shield and tanking with the suit's built in armor in a race to kill the other guy before he killed me (when we have no cover to duck behind and regen shield). However instances of that happening are less 5%. 95+% of the time, once my shields drop I usually go down. Add on to that the overall effectiveness of flux grenades being significantly greater than locus. Locus hits super hard and can kill, however flux grenades go through topography and, most importantly, have a ridiculously short fuse. When someone tosses a locus my way, if I see it, I can usually get out of range. Even in my Plate stacked Amarr. But fluxes? Only if you are lucky such that it landed behind you and somewhat near the edge of its range. What this means is that Shields are easy to kill -- and for suits that would rely on shield tanking -- the little armor they have is just a formality the vast majority of the time. So in relation to the above -- you are 100% correct that a suit being repped both armor and shield simultaneously would gain an instant unintended damage resistance to weapon types. However, that is easily avoided making it so that a suit can only be repped Shields OR Armor at any given time. Then shield stacked suits would be shield repped, and armor stacked suits would be armor repped in much the same fashion that they are. Sure a logi may try switching between one and another, and in skirmisher battles it may or may not be effective. However as far as entrenched battles go, the ones where reps become potentially OP, the delay in weapon switch, lock on, and the rep beginning would be significantly less eHP repped as opposed to if the logi had just stuck to one type of rep in the first place. In the case of having 2 logis, taking turns repping, on mic, switching out as needed -- it would be effectively the same amount of eHP through repping as if the two logis had double repped armor the whole time. As such weapon damage type will still come into play virtually as much as it does now as suit's inherent available HP pool in the given type matters. Your points do not address this.

Gyn Wallace Ready to Play 343	Posted - 2015.04.25 02:03:00 - [81] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: That being said I can think of several counters ... However, your point also underscores for me the value of having shield reps be a cloak style active mod rather than a lock on style mod like the armor rep. 0.02 ISK Cross I think those all work, even though they're a little more effective in the current system, where you can expect heavies to be either/or (but mostly armor) tanks instead of dual tanked; but I hadn't been thinking about shield reps in the context of: Imp Smash wrote: However, that is easily avoided making it so that a suit can only be repped Shields OR Armor at any given time. ...] when only one of type of rep is allowed simultaneously. Your 2nd point does not address this. That idea would be huge for mitigating the potential for OPness. Without that, one specific example illustrates the problem with simultaneous shield and armor reps, a plasma cannon being fired at that hypothetical small squad of two heavies and two shield and armor repping logies. The plasma cannon can OHK most suits and take away most of a heavies shields and armor in one hit. Usually that puts the heavy in cover, and he has to be careful about exposing himself to that plasma cannon again, even if his armor is repped to full. He has to wait til his shield regen, if he doesn't want to be exposed to a OHK if the plasma cannon hits him again. With simultaneous remote shield and armor reps, those heavies could take turns eating plasma cannon rounds at a very quick pace. There would be no need to lower the threshold for orbitals...if logis get shield rep warpoints. All Cross's counters work, but they'd work a little bit less well than they already do. I don't hate the idea of shield reps at all; new features are generally good. I don't suppose its a foregone conclusion that shield reps would be OP, but the danger is there. I think we'd have a decent chance of Ratatti balancing them, right after he gets around to buffing logi survivability. :D Soon. The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
The Dark Cloud The Rainbow Effect 4602	Posted - 2015.04.25 05:58:00 - [82] - Quote I find the absence of a devpost kinda disturbing. I make the scrubs scream and the vets cry.
Gyn Wallace Ready to Play 343	Posted - 2015.04.25 13:55:00 - [83] - Quote The Dark Cloud wrote: I find the absence of a devpost kinda disturbing. That's probably my fault. I made the mistake of mentioning buffing logi survivability, which keeps devs away better than garlic, crosses, and holy water. The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4545	Posted - 2015.04.25 17:11:00 - [84] - Quote Gyn Wallace wrote: Cross Atu wrote: That being said I can think of several counters ... However, your point also underscores for me the value of having shield reps be a cloak style active mod rather than a lock on style mod like the armor rep. 0.02 ISK Cross I think those all work, even though they're a little more effective in the current system, where you can expect heavies to be either/or (but mostly armor) tanks instead of dual tanked; but I hadn't been thinking about shield reps in the context of: Certainly, if they were not more effective in the current system it would be indicative of a fundamental flaw in either the current system, the shield rep idea, or both. I don't see 'bite' in over all balance with that however, in part due to the counters listed. In part due to the nature of allocating cooperative play assets (it's much easier to say "then they just switch to armor reps" than it is to actually switch reps and lock mid fire fight in a rapid enough manner to be significant when enough sufficient fire to have stripped shields that were being repped. Just as one example). Also due to the increased utility for Assaults. Broadly speaking Assaults rely on mobility, need mobility, more than Sententials, all of which leads to shields being a proportionally more valuable asset for them. Recently I was in squad with an Amarr Assault who had a single Logi as support, pulling down kills upwards of 30 per match we few deaths and even fewer suit losses, now granted the Assault in question has solid gun game but with the inclusion of shield reps this type of scenario is more likely to occur. Put more simply reps are not just of use to Heavies and shield reps are on average going to be more widely useful than armor currently tend to be. As such comparisons of groups with logi support fighting groups without it aren't fundamental balance they're more a matter of player choice, in the same way as groups fighting with only long or short range weapons suffer in certain contexts against those using the other. Gyn Wallace wrote: Imp Smash wrote: However, that is easily avoided making it so that a suit can only be repped Shields OR Armor at any given time. ...] when only one of type of rep is allowed simultaneously. Your 2nd point does not address this. That idea would be huge for mitigating the potential for OPness. Without that, one specific example illustrates the problem with simultaneous shield and armor reps, a plasma cannon being fired at that hypothetical small squad of two heavies and two shield and armor repping logies. The plasma cannon can OHK most suits and take away most of a heavies shields and armor in one hit. Usually that puts the heavy in cover, and he has to be careful about exposing himself to that plasma cannon again, even if his armor is repped to full. He has to wait til his shield regen, if he doesn't want to be exposed to a OHK if the plasma cannon hits him again. With simultaneous remote shield and armor reps, those heavies could take turns eating plasma cannon rounds at a very quick pace. There would be no need to lower the threshold for orbitals...if logis get shield rep warpoints. All Cross's counters work, but they'd work a little bit less well than they already do. I don't hate the idea of shield reps at all; new features are generally good. I don't suppose its a foregone conclusion that shield reps would be OP, but the danger is there. I think we'd have a decent chance of Ratatti balancing them, right after he gets around to buffing logi survivability. :D Soon. I'm pretty fundamentally opposed to the notion of hard line lockouts such as only one set of reps being applied at a time (or required fitting slots et al). A couple examples include Being able to troll more often (use a MLT tool of one kind on someone with a tank of the opposing kind thus blocking their own squad mates from supporting them). Certain players being locked out from even trying to earn WP/use their equipment because someone else is using similar equipment (what if the presence of a sniper rifle on the field caused the RR to no longer apply damage because the two combined provide a more powerful ranged application of damage than either one alone?) As to the example squad presented above there are a few aspects to consider. 1. You are talking about 1 merc (PLC user) shutting down a squad of 4 in the current context. 2. As outlined the hypothetical does not account for the PLC user wisely targeting the Logi. That is somewhat like targeting the RR user in a CQC situation where there is also a Shotgunner or NK'er present. Of course bad target priority will often result in a poor outcome, as will attempting to engage hostile forces when out numbered 4 to 1. If two heavies using tactical movement while supported by two Logi can forcefully push against the applied fire of a single merc with a PLC (or other LW) that is not at all OP, that is utterly reasonable. What would be OP is if that heavy/logi combo when confronted with equal numbers of opposing forces who are also using effective coordinated action where still able to push/sustain as readily as you describe. But what would happen to one of those heavies of 4 PLC rounds landed on him? Or if two PLC were applying sustained fire to the group while two CQC flanked and ganked the logi (as just one ready example). CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4545	Posted - 2015.04.25 17:15:00 - [85] - Quote The question of WP earnings deserves it's own focus IMO so here goes. If we have a shield transporter that functions identical to the current rep tool then we can simply apply the current earnings logic. So that's simple enough. However we have heard cases made for very different mechanics for how a shield transporter could function, and it begs the question how would WP be assigned in those cases? What would be the earnings mechanism for a transporter that did not actually rep but just turned on the native rep of the suit? (and how would higher tiers of such an equipment mod provide enhanced functionality?) What would be the earnings mechanism for a transporter that used the 'active bubble' method to apply shield reps? Should the WP earnings for both "rep tools" be reworked to one unified method with the addition of shield reps or is having differing mechanics grand different earnings types be the most appropriate option? Thoughts? CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
The dark cloud The Rainbow Effect 4610	Posted - 2015.04.25 20:02:00 - [86] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: The question of WP earnings deserves it's own focus IMO so here goes. If we have a shield transporter that functions identical to the current rep tool then we can simply apply the current earnings logic. So that's simple enough. However we have heard cases made for very different mechanics for how a shield transporter could function, and it begs the question how would WP be assigned in those cases? What would be the earnings mechanism for a transporter that did not actually rep but just turned on the native rep of the suit? (and how would higher tiers of such an equipment mod provide enhanced functionality?) What would be the earnings mechanism for a transporter that used the 'active bubble' method to apply shield reps? Should the WP earnings for both "rep tools" be reworked to one unified method with the addition of shield reps or is having differing mechanics grand different earnings types be the most appropriate option? Thoughts? EDIT: "It's weird, he has all these questions and side bars... creepily like he's been thinking about this for awhile." If you want to have a mechanism for shield transporters/rechargers then you could have a mechanism in place where the time while beeing focused on a a suit that has depleted/partially depleted shields would equal to WP gain. So its not the amount of shields you heal but rather the time you are locked onto them. However that concept brings some issues: -if shield transporters only overclock the native shield recharge delay to 0 (assuming the tool itself doesnt provide any shields) then how would the Cal. Logi bonus work out? Range would work but the increased healing rate bonus wouldnt apply (maybe more range then reptools and +1 target locked on per lvl?). Or how about a native shield recharge multiplayer? STD only overclocks native regen +25% of native regen, advanced gives +50% of the native regen (working like a mobile recharger) and proto would add +75% ontop of the native regen. That way Suits with horrendeus native regen would not benefit from having a shield logi. In this scenario only shield tanked suits could really make usage of this due to their ability to enhance their native regen on the fit itself. -If we go down the route of a active equipment (ala cloak field activation) with a area of effect mechanic then the bonuses have to be wastly different then that of the minlogis. Maybe something like +10% area of effect radius and 5% cooldown time per lvl? For the AOE kind of WP earn mechanic you could eventually take the same mechanic as from the resuplly bonus that nanohives have. Treat shields restored like ammo or something similar where you get +25WP for people inside of the bubble that have less then 100% shields. Ya know you aswell only get WP for a team mate who has at least fired 1 round so that the nanohive resupply mechanic can come into action. You have to keep aswell in mind that guardian points should be earnable too. I make the scrubs scream and the vets cry.
Devadander Woodgrain Atari 273	Posted - 2015.04.25 20:14:00 - [87] - Quote As a pure Caldari, this is a topic I have thought much about. All my suits are fit to the lack of help for my tank; speed, regen, damage, range. My "brick" fit calass has 200 more armor than shield... (I got tired of getting the shields off a random cal, only to be pasted with him having 500+ armor left) I rarely run it due to the fact that I can't fit a rep-hive, and have had logi blaze past me when I need 400+ armor, but I'm caldari so they didn't even flex. Pulses don't work. Had them on shield tanks of old. They will be garbage, and people won't use them after the release rush. Same for active equipment suggestions. They will be clunky and annoying to use. Shield hives... I'll tell the story of my Pro-callogi, nano V later... Wasted time/money. The tool is the only viable option. Same metric used to prevent nade squeezing, and fall dmg farming. Flat wp rate, 10-15 per lower % hps (due to shield having a lower fittable total) Very low hps, 15-20-40, to combine with suits hps for instant on (same lock time as armor tool) {ask me about my cal-sent with a 107 hps @ 0.6....} ....I can't believe im saying this... Let them spider it.. single beam tools only. That's three guys locked into one action, and popping any one of the three disables them big time. (minsent514?) MOST IMPORTANTLY: Cannot rep 0 shields. Armor tool can't save you from 0. Suit depleted delay will become a major factor to deter dual-beaming. Armor heavies that don't always have a logi with them have fits with maybe one plate, self rep, and sometimes even a kincat. But his logi heavy will be pure plates. The same will go for the shield logi/heavy. Shield core tool? give extender guys an option? Assaults abusing this would be about the same as now. Hard to keep up with an assault with a tool out and ready. It's done, just not often. (shield tooling my calass would be impossible without a good standoff) Start small, way UP, then tweak upwards. My 0.02 isk. "Lets group up and push an objective" ~ No blueberry ever 07-28-12 ~Deal with it~
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 1030	Posted - 2015.04.25 21:18:00 - [88] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: CalLogi hive bonus is awesome. I could use some cpu and pg. I'd love a sidearm tho. Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 1030	Posted - 2015.04.25 21:42:00 - [89] - Quote Gyn Wallace wrote: ... I think we'd have a decent chance of Ratatti balancing them, right after he gets around to buffing logi survivability. :D Soon. And that^ , basically. Open-Beta Vet. Egbinger Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
Shamarskii Simon The Hundred Acre Hood Rise Of Legion. 381	Posted - 2015.04.25 21:59:00 - [90] - Quote I have a question for you guys... Why not add sHP and lower delay by x amount? Imho, a shield recharging tool... Isn't going to be as good as a armor repair tool... The lower HP of the suit + lower HP/s from the tool, it's like trying to shoehorn armor style into shields yknow? Why not "harden/boost" sHP by X% and lower delay by Y%? The ADS tourney! Join today!



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