DUST Search - Could we get a shield logi?

el OPERATOR wrote:

Some more reasonable stuff plus

Consider this, again bearing in mind that my problem is the removal of the hive bonus for this idea:

There's 2 "layers" of hp, shield and armor. When taking damage, shield goes first, especially when the combatant just stands and "toe-to-toes". After shields are gone repping armor becomes less about having a suit just stand and take fire and more about extending that suits ability to finish its most immediate confrontation ie. 10m targets and then get into cover so full regen, shields and armor can occur. Granted different situations have different outcomes like a logi'd heavy push vs assaults OR logi'd speedtanked MinHeavies vs logi'd bricktank Amarr heavies (<- very much your dps/hp pool contest). Its all relative EXCEPT that the repped layer is the 2nd.

And thats where the OP argument gains steam. If the 1st layer becomes suddenly almost permanently sustainable AND the second layer behaves as it does now there very literally are the conditions for near-impervious or insurmountable (OP) fits and combos able to be created. Shield repping becomes something only viably balanced with a complete redraw of armor repping as well.

Considering the amount of time, effort, fighting and crying its taken to get the balance we have it's probably just not worth it considering what will happen. Its either "OP" or we lose a good chunk of the work of years to get us here doing it. For a system that may or may not actually provide any more worthwhile gameplay. But could create less.

Shield have an advantage in mobility, cqc or open spaces. Granted thats better in the latter. Use it.
Shields extenders , I think, were due a buff a while back and idr if that ever happened or not. I remember plates being done but am unsure if extenders got anything.
My instinct is no but I'm not positive. If they did then maybe some buffing to rechargers and energizers is in order.

Personally, for my CalLogi, I'd much rather have my hive bonus AND better/more efficient regen mods than the same mods and another stick-a-repper-on-it role.

btw the Antishield repper channel btw IS totally called, "We Want All the Fun of Being a DragChute for Ourselves"
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Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 752	Posted - 2015.03.20 07:52:00 - [1] - Quote shaman oga wrote: It would be OP. Imagine a cal sent, with 80 or even more shield recharge and no delays. Isn't that was the Armor heavies have right now? Or any armor based suit? I mean -- core is what -- 120 a sec no delays? Seems to me any concept of shield rep tool being OP would apply equally to the armor rep tool. Hence either rep tools are OP or neither are OP. It is ridiculous to say one is OP but somehow magically the other is not. (and that is not even arguing the lower ehp of shields....) DJINN Jecture wrote: This would be OP, for instance your team is that fricken good that they take no armor damage, so you switch to your shield rep tool from your armor rep tool, then drop them some Gauged hives to supplement their bullets. Unstoppable force! Same for this. Isn't that what armor based heavy/logi combos do now? Seriously, you guys arguing against shield/armor support parity are trying to divide by zero. Imp Smash fails to understand how people miss simple rationale like this. Explodes into a wormhole.
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 809	Posted - 2015.04.24 06:49:00 - [2] - Quote There is no reason for this to not be a strait rep the same way armor reppers work. You want parity -- you'll have to accept that. If armor reps aren't unbalanced then a strait shield rep wouldn't be unbalanced.
Imp Smash Molon Labe. 812	Posted - 2015.04.25 00:37:00 - [3] - Quote Gyn Wallace wrote: Parity with the numbers would make shield tanks superior, since you don't die when you run out of shields. The potential for OPness isn't in the sense of shield tanks vs. armor tanks, but in the sense that when dual-tanked, you no longer have the option of fitting the right weapon to do the job of burning though a sentinel who is either shield OR armor tanked. With a shield rep tool available, I'd plan on carrying both with my logi, and teaming up with another logi and two dual tanked sentinels.* Both logis would run with weapons out, but one switches to a shield rep tool when we make contact. If the contact is a bit heavier, both logies switch to rep tools as needed. With a Cal logi repping shields and a armor repping logi (whether its still the Min or becomes the Gal or Amarr bonus) repping armor, what weapon will the enemy use to punch through the reps? If the enemy is carrying lots of scrambler rifles, the Cal logi switches to his armor rep tool. If the enemy is carrying lots of combat rifles, both logis switch to shield rep tools. The potential for OPness isn't as much about shield vs. armor tanking, as the potential for dual tanking and dual reps. That's potentially much harder to counter than a pair of armor tanked sentinels and a pair of armor repping logis, which can get chewed up pretty easily by mass drivers and rail rifles. Switching to a loadout to counter a shield tanked small sentinel/logi squad is harder than it is for their logis to switch rep tools. Without damage resistance modules on drop suits, I don't see a disadvantage for dual tanking, other than the opportunity cost; unlike the weakness of dual tanking in Eve Online, instead of focusing on a singular tank. Well, there are a few caveats to that. You are correct that running out of armor results in death where as the case is not necessarily so with shields. And you are correct that it would be harder to take advantage of the type of damage a weapon does. However, a situation where a shield rep tool functioned just like an armor reptool would not be so black and white. I would argue the consequences of running out of shield and armor to actually be closer than one may think. At face value you would think that the consequences for running out of armor are way worse -- and in fact I have argued that exact point in other situations. However when referencing repping a tank under fire you have to consider the type of suit. For an Armor stacked Amarr Sent shields really won't matter. Better to just have an armor rep on them as even explosives (which are generally lower DPS than rifles) will out DPS said shield reptool especially as their shield reserve is relatively small. However for a Shield stacked Cal sent -- once the Sent runs out of shield he/she is almost* as dead as if they had run out of armor. As a Cal sent I have survived running out of shield and tanking with the suit's built in armor in a race to kill the other guy before he killed me (when we have no cover to duck behind and regen shield). However instances of that happening are less 5%. 95+% of the time, once my shields drop I usually go down. Add on to that the overall effectiveness of flux grenades being significantly greater than locus. Locus hits super hard and can kill, however flux grenades go through topography and, most importantly, have a ridiculously short fuse. When someone tosses a locus my way, if I see it, I can usually get out of range. Even in my Plate stacked Amarr. But fluxes? Only if you are lucky such that it landed behind you and somewhat near the edge of its range. What this means is that Shields are easy to kill -- and for suits that would rely on shield tanking -- the little armor they have is just a formality the vast majority of the time. So in relation to the above -- you are 100% correct that a suit being repped both armor and shield simultaneously would gain an instant unintended damage resistance to weapon types. However, that is easily avoided making it so that a suit can only be repped Shields OR Armor at any given time. Then shield stacked suits would be shield repped, and armor stacked suits would be armor repped in much the same fashion that they are. Sure a logi may try switching between one and another, and in skirmisher battles it may or may not be effective. However as far as entrenched battles go, the ones where reps become potentially OP, the delay in weapon switch, lock on, and the rep beginning would be significantly less eHP repped as opposed to if the logi had just stuck to one type of rep in the first place. In the case of having 2 logis, taking turns repping, on mic, switching out as needed -- it would be effectively the same amount of eHP through repping as if the two logis had double repped armor the whole time. As such weapon damage type will still come into play virtually as much as it does now as suit's inherent available HP pool in the given type matters. Your points do not address this.
Imp Smash Molon Labe. RUST415 819	Posted - 2015.04.28 01:41:00 - [4] - Quote Cross, I'd say those are a bit reaching. Actually, very reaching. If the response to balancing out two unequal methods of survivability is worry about trolling you aren't focusing on the topic at hand. Gyn Wallace has made the first EVER reasonable argument/concern against shield rep tools. The potential for damage resistance. It is, in itself, not 100 percent complete due to the limited repair rate of rep tools in relation to DPS from even 1 gun of pretty much any type. (Much less concentrated fire...) And it is still all just theory...in practice it may provide negligible effective resistance when compared to 2 armor rep tools on the same target. The other reasonable argument against shield rep tools, that no one ever makes but I'll mention now, is that it pulls away from skirmisher style combat that shields are designed for. In which case hand held (not placed) AE recharge rate boosting equipment is called for. However this does not allow Shield suits to tank any better and prevents a group of Shield based players from holding a location (such as an installation) which is pretty much unfair to Caldari loyalists.
Imp Smash Molon Labe. RUST415 821	Posted - 2015.04.29 00:04:00 - [5] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: a ridiculous number of posts (That much back back to back?!) The bias is dripping like syrup on pancakes. But for everyone else... Ok so Dust is a virtual Chimera of weak asymmetric gameplay elements. (I forget who posted a link to that video discussing it a few months back but it was really good. Kudos!) For that to work things have to be equal even if not the same. Shields are arguably equal in that they are designed to be better than armor at skirmisher style battles (whether they actually ARE better at skirmisher battles or not is debatable --> they didn't get a regen buff when all suits got slot buffs letting armor regen at rates it previously could not when shield regen rate was originally hammered out) -- however, EVEN if shields are the equal of armor in that one area -- the gap between the two is HUGE at CQC. Quite simply shields can't stand up to armor in CQC. Well they shouldn't necessarily have to really. A different design is a different design. However, since the vast majority of all hack points in the objective game modes are indoors -- shield suits are simply not suited for winning matches. That's unfair to them. It ruins immersion. And it hurts FW -- the shield races can't BE loyalist and win! (all other things being equal) A shield rep tool that functions like an armor reptool would still be less effective than an armor reptool because of the lower HP pool available. Shields have less ehp. For the same reason you don't armor reptool a Cal Sent, you would find a shield tool to be less effective on said Cal Sent than an armor tool on an Amarr because the Amarr has a bigger HP pool to tank from. However, that shield rep tool would help shield suits survive a bit better in CQC while still providing armor suits a CQC advantage. So what I want to know is, why people think that would be OP in any way that the armor rep tool is somehow not OP I've heard ONE good response to this ever (in this thread actually) and even then it is still not enough to decide a shield reptool would be unfair. All the people arguing against it appear like they don't want a fun or fair game.
Imp Smash Molon Labe. RUST415 824	Posted - 2015.05.04 05:58:00 - [6] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Some more reasonable stuff plus Consider this, again bearing in mind that my problem is the removal of the hive bonus for this idea: There's 2 "layers" of hp, shield and armor. When taking damage, shield goes first, especially when the combatant just stands and "toe-to-toes". After shields are gone repping armor becomes less about having a suit just stand and take fire and more about extending that suits ability to finish its most immediate confrontation ie. 10m targets and then get into cover so full regen, shields and armor can occur. Granted different situations have different outcomes like a logi'd heavy push vs assaults OR logi'd speedtanked MinHeavies vs logi'd bricktank Amarr heavies (<- very much your dps/hp pool contest). Its all relative EXCEPT that the repped layer is the 2nd. And thats where the OP argument gains steam. If the 1st layer becomes suddenly almost permanently sustainable AND the second layer behaves as it does now there very literally are the conditions for near-impervious or insurmountable (OP) fits and combos able to be created. Shield repping becomes something only viably balanced with a complete redraw of armor repping as well. Considering the amount of time, effort, fighting and crying its taken to get the balance we have it's probably just not worth it considering what will happen. Its either "OP" or we lose a good chunk of the work of years to get us here doing it. For a system that may or may not actually provide any more worthwhile gameplay. But could create less. Shield have an advantage in mobility, cqc or open spaces. Granted thats better in the latter. Use it. Shields extenders , I think, were due a buff a while back and idr if that ever happened or not. I remember plates being done but am unsure if extenders got anything. My instinct is no but I'm not positive. If they did then maybe some buffing to rechargers and energizers is in order. Personally, for my CalLogi, I'd much rather have my hive bonus AND better/more efficient regen mods than the same mods and another stick-a-repper-on-it role. btw the Antishield repper channel btw IS totally called, "We Want All the Fun of Being a DragChute for Ourselves" Keep in mind though, the first layer of HP cant become sustainable. Its just not possible. Even with the best rep stream in the game your weapons do 4x the damage approximately. Even if the shield repper was on par with the armor repper you are still going to be out of shields like you would be out of armor. Only you don&t have a large armor buffer so you go down a second or two after. Practically speaking nothing would change except shield tanked assaults, heavies, or commandos would be viable rep targets whereas now, they are significantly less so. As far as history of shields vs armor goes -- shield extenders were nerfed. They got a shield regen delay penaly added when armor got the buffed because back then shields were 10x better than armor. And it was too much of a swing. Also, a lot of suits that exist now didnt exist then, and this is before assault suits got the slot buffs. Basically, it was a 3 solid rounds of buffs towards armor, and a nerf to shields, and thats why the balance is bad. I never said you had to lose your hive bonus. I have no opinion on that as I am not an equipment toting Cal. My only Cal suit is the Sent. I am an Amarr. I am a hardcore armor tanker. So while I can' talk about y'alls bonuses I CAN talk about the difference between Armor and Shields in CQC. Honestly without changing anything, we could just have more open points (level design folks!) and that right there would be a solid indirect buff to shields. Regardless, it is silly to say a rep tool for shields is magically different than a rep tool for armor. It isn't, and in case you didn't notice, rep tools are a tad powerful in general.
Imp Smash Molon Labe. RUST415 826	Posted - 2015.05.06 23:23:00 - [7] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Imp Smash wrote: Honestly without changing anything, we could just have more open points (level design folks!) and that right there would be a solid indirect buff to shields. Regardless, it is silly to say a rep tool for shields is magically different than a rep tool for armor. It isn't, and in case you didn't notice, rep tools are a tad powerful in general. I'm not saying it'd be drastically different, I'm saying the argument it'd be OP stems from the reality that it'd be used identically to armor reppers ( "tad powerful") and in conjunction with them which would create some serious OP circumstances. Especially in CQ where the immediate wipe of entrenched defenders' shields is critical to actually breaching an area and clearing it. I'm sorry but, I don't understand your reasoning. How is 1 shield and 1 armor repper more powerful than 2 armor reppers? Assuming the rep amount is the same -- wouldn't the suit be getting the same amount of hp back in either circumstance?