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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 9 post(s)

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 15216	Posted - 2015.01.20 09:33:00 - [1] - Quote Dear players, we want to talk about District Timers, in particular, the not-so-much-intended practice of safeguarding Districts into difficult timezones. There are a few ideas already on the table, not a complete list and I expect Kain Spero to show up pretty much instantly. Methods to reset, if we go that way A) Randomize - all Timers will be reset to a random TZ within the allowed Begin and End settings B) Redistribute - all Timers will be reset and fixed in a ratio that aligns with average PCU C) Reset and allow +-X timers around the default District Timer D) Reset and reduce the available option for Timers E) Reset and allow incremental jumps from the default Timer, rising exponentially in ISK cost per 30 minutes. I will add more. Please discuss. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 809	Posted - 2015.01.20 09:49:00 - [2] - Quote First again! \o/
Syeven Reed T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K 1189	Posted - 2015.01.20 09:49:00 - [3] - Quote Do you mind if we also use this thread to discuss ways of removing timers alltogether? SCAN ATTEMPT PREVENTED EvE - 21 Day Trial
shaman oga Dead Man's Game 3731	Posted - 2015.01.20 09:52:00 - [4] - Quote I guess i'm for option B. I mean, fixed timers, some for Europe, some for America and some for Asia. Of course each zone should have a range of timers, example of a good EU timer is from 18 to 23 (UTC). Situational awareness also known as passive scan. Minmatar omni-merc
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 720	Posted - 2015.01.20 10:00:00 - [5] - Quote if i may ask, - What will be the main impact of each change? - What is the end goal? To shorten timers? keep more districts available? Keeping more districts available to attack is a good thing, but i would go with the timer adjustments that fall more in line with new PC mechanics being planned. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 15218	Posted - 2015.01.20 10:16:00 - [6] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: if i may ask, - What will be the main impact of each change? - What is the end goal? To shorten timers? keep more districts available? Keeping more districts available to attack is a good thing, but i would go with the timer adjustments that fall more in line with new PC mechanics being planned. Making it less easy to hide Districts in difficult timers, thus requiring a certain player count in your corporation per held District, as is common in warfare. Think of it as minimum Mercenary Coverage, or Garrisons. We want Corporations to need new recruits, that hopefully get trained and stay with the game, plus to reduce the obvious "gaming of the rules" as by placing all your Districts on TQ DT + 00:30 and buying Cargo Hub SI's. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 4273	Posted - 2015.01.20 10:35:00 - [7] - Quote You summoned me and I'm here. I really think that CCP reaching into the sandbox to manipulate timers to "reset" them is a core violation of the sandbox. You currently have 12 Alliances and 72 Corporations involved in the system ( www.dustcharts.com ). How does reducing all of their holdings to ash and nullifying what work they have put into PC as dysfunctional as it is seem justifiable in anyway? Screwing over everyone to address the outlier that is Nyain San seems like an overreaction. Their ownership share has been shrinking steadily and they are already feeling the pressure of not having players at their current timers which can be seen in them shifting their timers mainly from 1200 to 1300. Many ideas have been put on the table to address the issue including Pokey's expanding timers related to activity here: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=187670 I would also say that a majority of planetary conquest players are open to the idea of implementing some sort of window system that can be seen in posts like Fox's here: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2561895#post2561895 This is not a situation where a magic wand can be waved to address the issue. A good system that allows players to choose when they want to play on the land that they own and relate their activity to the maintenance of timers and wealth generation of districts seems like worth taking the time to implement rather than going off and doing a simplistic and shoddy fix. Allow timers to be adjustable but implement with an escalation of cost as in E, but use Warbarge components rather than ISK to adjust these timers. Second, allow a timer to only be shifted X hours per cycle to allow an owner that has their district a way to counter attack. Another option would be to remove the ability to change the timer immediately after taking a district, but allow it to be changed after a 24 hour cycle. This would allow an owner to counter attack, but if the district is defended then the timer can be manipulated based on costs and rules regarding how much a timer can be shifted in one go. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6620	Posted - 2015.01.20 10:45:00 - [8] - Quote Has to be a flexible system But not so flexible you can hide districts in the dead hours. Or lock districts. Also, found the logi tourist! Please cry directly into the bucket. -Ripley Riley
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 4273	Posted - 2015.01.20 10:56:00 - [9] - Quote Another thing that would dramatically reduce people using timer hiding would be to implement a system where you can only attack a district within X hours of your own timer. If you hide a district then you should also use the utility of those clones in any attacks you plan. This could be worked into the "attack from a list" system so districts outside your attack window don't show up. Clone packs generated by player activity would still be free to attack any timer they wish though. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
steadyhand amarr shadows of 514 3470	Posted - 2015.01.20 11:06:00 - [10] - Quote Any form of timer can be gamed. Just remove the dam things and introduce hourly rewards. Or simple have timezone areas so certain areas are always open to attack in EU time and then locked off etc. Or put in a shield system where barrage a bases shields and the defenders get a warning to rally troops or somthing. TIMERS DO NOT WORK. Or hell use the Eve system you attack a base knock into a vaun state then 24 hours later it's open to attack or somthing. Timers just ruin the spontaneous nature of what PC could be and will always be gamed no matter what you do. You can never have to many chaples -Templar True adamance

Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 4275	Posted - 2015.01.20 11:31:00 - [11] - Quote steadyhand amarr wrote: Any form of timer can be gamed. Just remove the dam things and introduce hourly rewards. Or simple have timezone areas so certain areas are always open to attack in EU time and then locked off etc. Or put in a shield system where barrage a bases shields and the defenders get a warning to rally troops or somthing. TIMERS DO NOT WORK. Or hell use the Eve system you attack a base knock into a vaun state then 24 hours later it's open to attack or somthing. Timers just ruin the spontaneous nature of what PC could be and will always be gamed no matter what you do. I think having a way to affect districts instantly is good and needed in the form of raids etc., but you do need some way to schedule a fight so you actually have people show up on either end. You could always give less warning ( 20 hour minimum delay instead of 24 hours would dramatically change the current system). Folks have been discussing having districts have 4 hour windows that the attacker can then select the hour they will have the attack land the next day. I think a system like that strikes a good balance between attacker and defender advantage and it make trying hold 50+ districts without the manpower to back it up pretty much impossible. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
steadyhand amarr shadows of 514 3470	Posted - 2015.01.20 11:54:00 - [12] - Quote I think option to raid which then triggers a schedule fight is a good middle ground but the defenders choice when this fight is must be limited so they don't just make it a stuiped time. An idea is keep the final attack within 3-5 hours this allows clever use of early bird scouts while trying to limit the nature counter effect of attacking at a silly time rather than defending. i'm typing a on a smart phone so will post more though out idea later on You can never have to many chaples -Templar True adamance
SponkSponkSponk WarRavens Capital Punishment. 1128	Posted - 2015.01.20 11:55:00 - [13] - Quote My proposal: 1. Redistribute all existing timers (option B) 2. Allow a corporation to swap the timers of two districts they control 3. Aside from that, timers cannot be changed This means that corps will battle over their share of timers, but will also conquer districts from out of their prime time so they can consolidate good timers around their home systems and otherwise groom their holdings. Dust/Eve transfers
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 4276	Posted - 2015.01.20 12:01:00 - [14] - Quote If the problem is timers being stacked around low PCU times rather than resetting all timers why not just tackle the problem area and do something like scramble timers set between 0800 to 1400 UTC? If you look at www.dustcharts.com you can see that timers are already fairly evenly distributed with the outlier being the spike at 1300. I still think that CCP going in and changing around the current timers feels like a violation of the sandbox though. At least minimize that violation. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 15237	Posted - 2015.01.20 13:11:00 - [15] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: If the problem is timers being stacked around low PCU times rather than resetting all timers why not just tackle the problem area and do something like scramble timers set between 0800 to 1400 UTC? If you look at www.dustcharts.com you can see that timers are already fairly evenly distributed with the outlier being the spike at 1300. I still think that CCP going in and changing around the current timers feels like a violation of the sandbox though. At least minimize that violation. "violation" of sandbox, these are game rules that were decided at a single point in dusts life. They are no more sacred than any other rule. Doesn't mean it should be done without due diligence, but can and should be done if necessary. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Lazer Fo Cused Shining Flame Amarr Empire 549	Posted - 2015.01.20 13:20:00 - [16] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Dear players, we want to talk about District Timers, in particular, the not-so-much-intended practice of safeguarding Districts into difficult timezones. There are a few ideas already on the table, not a complete list and I expect Kain Spero to show up pretty much instantly. Methods to reset, if we go that way A) Randomize - all Timers will be reset to a random TZ within the allowed Begin and End settings B) Redistribute - all Timers will be reset and fixed in a ratio that aligns with average PCU C) Reset and allow +-X timers around the default District Timer D) Reset and reduce the available option for Timers E) Reset and allow incremental jumps from the default Timer, rising exponentially in ISK cost per 30 minutes. I will add more. Please discuss. A) - Screws everyone really and its luck if you get a timer that you can defend/attack because it is not then the district is lost B) - Depends on the ratio, may favour more corps than others C/D) Read the same to me E) Prob the best but richest corps profit F) Why is it bad if corps put all there districts into crappy timezones, its metagaming and being a pain in the arse which is EVE all over anyways
Alaika Arbosa Minmatar Republic 2397	Posted - 2015.01.20 13:23:00 - [17] - Quote If timers are to be kept (and can be set by players), I'd put forward that whatever time is "set" be the middle of a 6 hour window. Example PCScrubs seizes a District successfully and sets their timer for 0000 UTC. Attacks can be started against them between 2100 UTC and 0300 UTC. ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ Now, having said that, I do not think that timers should be a thing unless they exist like POS timers do in Eve. Add X amount of fuel, District Defense Array RFs the District for Y hours. In any case, I think that timers are just a means of limiting the sandbox that we're supposed to be in. Ad Space Available Here 1m Isk/day Mail me message after transferring Isk (sig updated upon transfer completion)
Skybladev2 LUX AETERNA INT RUST415 167	Posted - 2015.01.20 13:24:00 - [18] - Quote A) Stupid B) Stupid C) Stupid D) What does it mean? E) What is the default timer? Default for whom? Americans? Europeans? Japanese? Why do you ever want to reset timers? This is totally defenders matter, not even you as a developers. This timer help them to maximize their chance to protect their districts. Can you write in detail what is wrong with timers now? <[^_^]>
Mr Machine Guns 1000	Posted - 2015.01.20 13:42:00 - [19] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Dear players, we want to talk about District Timers, in particular, the not-so-much-intended practice of safeguarding Districts into difficult timezones. There are a few ideas already on the table, not a complete list and I expect Kain Spero to show up pretty much instantly. Methods to reset, if we go that way A) Randomize - all Timers will be reset to a random TZ within the allowed Begin and End settings B) Redistribute - all Timers will be reset and fixed in a ratio that aligns with average PCU C) Reset and allow +-X timers around the default District Timer D) Reset and reduce the available option for Timers E) Reset and allow incremental jumps from the default Timer, rising exponentially in ISK cost per 30 minutes. I will add more. Please discuss. Timers are not the number 1 problem with pc atm. The main problem with pc is there is no incentive for new corps to get into pc because there is no good way to make isk back from using clone packs to take districts. CCP needs to introduce a new way to make pc profitable for corps in pc. The way i would see it is you have district make items for players in EVE and these items go into a market and the only way a corp makes isk is when a players buys said item and not dependent on a timer that adds clones when passive isk was in place. But to set timers to a random thing is just unfair considering CCP downtimes takes away district slots for Asian corps so that another thing CCP has to realize because no other time zone really has to deal with that have a timer when no district can be set to. I think CCP needs to fix the way corps make isk before timers need to be dealt with. This is something else you could do you can only set a certain % of your districts to a given timer because corps that have taken a district deserve the right to set the timer for their district.
Dust User KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 1498	Posted - 2015.01.20 14:15:00 - [20] - Quote How about instead of limiting what times you can play there is some sort of penalty for multiple districts on same timer. CONCORD can tax the corp X amount of ISK for each additional district on a timer.

Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6627	Posted - 2015.01.20 14:19:00 - [21] - Quote Skybladev2 wrote: This timer help them to maximize their chance to protect their districts. This statement is what is wrong with timers. Maximizing chances to defend are neat. Making it so no one else can really fight you for the district in the first place isn't playing the game. It's risk aversion and bluntly the reason a lot of this game is lost potential. If you want to have a district you should have to FIGHT to keep it. The ability to bury districts in bad time zones was an outlier, but it was as exploitive as district locking. Also, found the logi tourist! Please cry directly into the bucket. -Ripley Riley
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 809	Posted - 2015.01.20 14:23:00 - [22] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Kain Spero wrote: If the problem is timers being stacked around low PCU times rather than resetting all timers why not just tackle the problem area and do something like scramble timers set between 0800 to 1400 UTC? If you look at www.dustcharts.com you can see that timers are already fairly evenly distributed with the outlier being the spike at 1300. I still think that CCP going in and changing around the current timers feels like a violation of the sandbox though. At least minimize that violation. "violation" of sandbox, these are game rules that were decided at a single point in dusts life. They are no more sacred than any other rule. Doesn't mean it should be done without due diligence, but can and should be done if necessary. remove timers completely... battles start 24 hrs initiated by an aggressor, just like eve war dec mechanics.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 4282	Posted - 2015.01.20 14:32:00 - [23] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Kain Spero wrote: If the problem is timers being stacked around low PCU times rather than resetting all timers why not just tackle the problem area and do something like scramble timers set between 0800 to 1400 UTC? If you look at www.dustcharts.com you can see that timers are already fairly evenly distributed with the outlier being the spike at 1300. I still think that CCP going in and changing around the current timers feels like a violation of the sandbox though. At least minimize that violation. "violation" of sandbox, these are game rules that were decided at a single point in dusts life. They are no more sacred than any other rule. Doesn't mean it should be done without due diligence, but can and should be done if necessary. Changing the rules around timers is one thing but unilaterally going in and changing everyone's timers for them seems like a horse of a different color. It seems that you all would be able to come up with a solution that introduces some form of counterplay to timer hiding without having to force people's hand. Can you let us know what the current % of players is per hour based on PCU, so players can provide some informed feedback on timer adjustments that are going to be based on something like that? Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 5480	Posted - 2015.01.20 14:51:00 - [24] - Quote Removing the ability to change timers simply makes sense. I've gotten a lot of feedback over the past few weeks on it, but I haven't gotten a single gameplay-justified reason to keep the ability to move a timer. It seemed to come down to an emotional appeal of "taking away something from players", even though the thing suggested to take away is bad for players, and we can introduce new, better mechanics instead in other ways. The ability to change a districts' timer really only has one purpose: To prevent it from getting attacked. That's not what we want in an environment of healthy, active district churn. And that's one of the problems with many of Kane's ideas. Kane Spero's suggestions are not designed to prevent squatting of districts, as taking away rewards for squatting districts is unsatisfactory. People will squat districts in odd timers for no reward too. Whether they're useful or not, districts should not be able to be hung onto if not being defended, as we want new players and new corps to have opportunities to get involved. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 5480	Posted - 2015.01.20 14:54:00 - [25] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: You currently have 12 Alliances and 72 Corporations involved in the system ( www.dustcharts.com ). How does reducing all of their holdings to ash and nullifying what work they have put into PC as dysfunctional as it is seem justifiable in anyway? Effectively a new version of the game mode? Congrats on winning Season 1. Now time to start Season 2. Your rewards are the billions of free ISK you got. (Many competitive games reset standings seasonally, with such a major mechanics change, it makes sense to reset some things.) Kain Spero wrote: Another thing that would dramatically reduce people using timer hiding would be to implement a system where you can only attack a district within X hours of your own timer. If you hide a district then you should also use the utility of those clones in any attacks you plan. This could be worked into the "attack from a list" system so districts outside your attack window don't show up. Clone packs generated by player activity would still be free to attack any timer they wish though. Doesn't prevent squatting. Just prevents using squatted districts. Doesn't address the problem. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Ghostt Shadoww Carne Con Papas 146	Posted - 2015.01.20 14:54:00 - [26] - Quote CCP.....why you talking to Kain as if Kain is CPM still. I'm not a Kain hater never have been. He knows that. Just curious why Rattati you giving Kain special attention and he not even a CPM or has a corp to PC with. Again not a Kain hater just find it crazy a Dev pointed out a player in his post. Regardless what it is about. Kind of shows favoritism in my eyes. Like you miss Kain or something Ratatti. Anyways....I live on one side of the world. CCP it self is clearly on the other side of the world. The exact oppisite side. Having a window for every region. Nyain San and others on that side of the world. Are still going to put there timers for us 5am for them 5pm. Not the fault of Nyain San or any other corp where they are located in the world. No matter what system you put in. Not going to change that we are in totally different time zones. 12 hours apart in some areas. So what you going to do when an American team owns 20% and timers on 8pm est. guess what the others side of the world it's 8am. Again no matter what system you do. Prime time for me is not prime time for ASIA or EU. Or UK....it's impossible to cater to everyone. We live on two oppiste sides of the world. No matter what. No matter what!!! 8pm for me is 8am for the other side. Regardless what you do. You will always be benifit one side of the world or the other. Impossible to make it fair. Time is time and you can't change it, turn it back, slow it down, or speed it up. Time is time, and every part of the world has its own Prime Time Something Awful is going on around here. Hehe
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 5480	Posted - 2015.01.20 14:59:00 - [27] - Quote Ghostt Shadoww wrote: CCP.....why you talking to Kain as if Kain is CPM still. I'm not a Kain hater never have been. He knows that. Just curious why Rattati you giving Kain special attention and he not even a CPM or has a corp to PC with. If Kain was being talked to like a CPM, he would've been talked to on Skype in private. Rattati is merely noting the expectation that Kain would show up, as he has been incredibly vocal on the issue on the forums, on the podcast, and in a public Skype channel. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
zex ll X Algintal Core Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2015.01.20 15:00:00 - [28] - Quote Dust User wrote: How about instead of limiting what times you can play there is some sort of penalty for multiple districts on same timer. CONCORD can tax the corp X amount of ISK for each additional district on a timer. I like this idea.
Ghostt Shadoww Carne Con Papas 146	Posted - 2015.01.20 15:05:00 - [29] - Quote My Suggestion....... I think the only way to make this fair for the entire world...is to make this like real life. Have no timers at all. When a corp attacks another corp. Battle starts in 24 hours from Attack. That way it's like real life in a way. CCP im 15 years U.S. Navy Retiredas you well know.mNow days we know where the battle is going to take place what day and time roughly for both side us and the enemy. Hard to do a surprise attack now. With all the satellite and radar now. We can see army's mass and getting ready for a strike. So we have time to form or make an extraction plan. So with that said. If I take a battle group from USA across the Pacific to China I'll be there in 24 hours. And china will see me coming and get themselves ready. War doesn't care what time it is. Or where you live in the world. But you do have notice. You can plan and prepare. So leave it open. That way it's kind of like eve. You have to protect your stuff 24/7 and be available at anytime. If someone attacks you at 5am we'll fight will be 5am tomorrow... You can't wake up and defend. Then that's your problem ... Honestly any other way. How can it be fair. You will always cater to a certain region without even knowing it Something Awful is going on around here. Hehe
Ghostt Shadoww Carne Con Papas 146	Posted - 2015.01.20 15:09:00 - [30] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Ghostt Shadoww wrote: CCP.....why you talking to Kain as if Kain is CPM still. I'm not a Kain hater never have been. He knows that. Just curious why Rattati you giving Kain special attention and he not even a CPM or has a corp to PC with. If Kain was being talked to like a CPM, he would've been talked to on Skype in private. Rattati is merely noting the expectation that Kain would show up, as he has been incredibly vocal on the issue on the forums, on the podcast, and in a public Skype channel. It's favortism period....a Dev should never point out a player in a thread. Keep it professional. It can be taken wrong like I pointed out. No need to mention a player name. A Dev needs to give info to the community. Not say Hey Kain, I've done something think you would enjoy come check it out. There lots of talk and heat in the past with Kain , CPM, and Devs. So why add wood to the fire. Keep it professional not personal. Talk to Dust not an individual player. We are the voice. Not one man that doesn't even PC Something Awful is going on around here. Hehe



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