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Alaika Arbosa
Minmatar Republic
2397
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Posted - 2015.01.20 13:23:00 -
[1] - Quote
If timers are to be kept (and can be set by players), I'd put forward that whatever time is "set" be the middle of a 6 hour window.
Example
PCScrubs seizes a District successfully and sets their timer for 0000 UTC. Attacks can be started against them between 2100 UTC and 0300 UTC.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
Now, having said that, I do not think that timers should be a thing unless they exist like POS timers do in Eve.
Add X amount of fuel, District Defense Array RFs the District for Y hours.
In any case, I think that timers are just a means of limiting the sandbox that we're supposed to be in.
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Alaika Arbosa
Minmatar Republic
2402
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Posted - 2015.01.20 22:36:00 -
[2] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:True Adamance wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:And, as anyone who is actually active in PC currently knows, RAIDS do very much exist and have ever since PC isk payouts were changed a couple months back. Put simply, RAIDING is committed by attacking corps fielding a team, winning the initial attacks (it takes 3 successful, successive attacks to "flip" district ownership) and then NOT showing for the third, final flip attack. 2 battles with individual payouts of 3-7 Million isk each = 6-14Million isk earned, per player, per full matchset district attack.
Easily 90% of the initiative inspiring this proposal is less a case of conditions being "unfair" or "inaccessible " and more just players are unwilling to rise to the challenge, and demanding it be lowered down to them.
Don't like Nyan, think they hold too much or can't protect what they have? Gather a team and attack them.
Have doubts as to whether or not a corp that has a bunch of districts at, say, 0600 is actually active at that time (since you know they all log off at 0559)? Field a team and attack them. Sounds ******* boring. Fought a generic battle. Called it raiding. Achieved nothing that any other attack at any other time would have achieved. Called it raiding. A raid is a rapid "SUPRISE" attack. In Dust you politely register your name on a form in triplicate, ensure the other corporations Public Relations, Financial Officers, and CEO are all aware of your efforts, and invite them to tea afterwards. Sure it sounds boring. Thing is, it exists. You and 5 of your friends want to "raid"? Send those clones. My point in it is that its possible, as proven by all the corps and players currently PC active who are doing exactly as I describe. PC battles are identical to pub skirm in structure. That being the case doesn't warrant a major overhaul of timers to correct, it warrants an overhaul of the PC combat mechanics/mode style itself.
So raiding exists for people that already play PC or anyone that wants to pay for a clone pack just so they can have a chance at PC payouts?
Sounds oh so inviting and appealing, I'ma get right to it!
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Alaika Arbosa
Minmatar Republic
2403
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Posted - 2015.01.21 18:38:00 -
[3] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:Zene Ren wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:LOL @ the people who can't manage to make a dent or foothold in PC as it currently stands. You really think your interests are best served by complete timer removal?? That a "Suprise Raiding" mechanic will grant you an ability to "be in PC"? Better think that one through- Who, exactly, do you think will comprise the most prolific raiding groups? Small groups that couldn't gather a competitive 16 team or existing Molden Heath Mafia Hitsquad corps, who already are able to field multiple top-tier teams as needed? OH my, the tears will be fantastic in here when the QQnoobs realize they've just advocated to never exist in PC since they will never have a moments rest since they'll be attackable by pro's 24/7. US Civil War history has an example of what timer removal will do to Molden Heath/PC. Its called "Sherman's March". http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman%27s_March_to_the_Sea raids are for people who want to attack and play PC without the obligation to defend or conquer, they just want to play PC and earn ISK on the win scenario while dwindling production for defenders from attacked district Now who's making up artificial scenarios? Raids as you've described them will attract the current PC slayersquad masses who will roflstomp the everliving **** out of EVERYONE. And then the QQnoobery about how PC is too elitist will continue, albeit from the perspective of, " Waaa, we tried to raid in PC and got punked and then *big inhale* we got our district stomped out from under us * big inhale* and now our asses are just being passed around for clonefarming like a hackeysack at a Dave Matthews show!!! *big inhale* WAAAAAA!!!!!"
Wow, you need reading comprehension.
He is basically stating that if there were a "Surprise Raiding" mechanic a new breed of PC participant could arise.
The Pirate.
We don't hold land (**** that, let you greedy bastards pay the Sov bill*), we can't be kicked out because we don't hold land and we can still run a profit at your expense while you're off making yourself feel good by being "competitive" with the other mouthbreathers.
What don't you understand about that? Who will your "Molden Heath Mafia Hitsquad" corps attack in retaliation while we're raiding your District while you're off attacking someone else?
Not everyone who wants to play PC wants to hold land, only the "competitive" apes who need pixels to be proud of will be pursuing that (or their sycophants).
*Here's hoping that CCP does include a Sov Bill mechanic
Please Rattati, please.
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Alaika Arbosa
Minmatar Republic
2404
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Posted - 2015.01.21 18:49:00 -
[4] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Zene Ren wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Zene Ren wrote:there is only one and it is the most irritating people from what i know and it is inability to play PC constantly for players with enough SP and is and with 16 man of friends when they are online ATM Sorry I'm not tracking what you mean, could you rephrase it? players with the right amount of SP, team mates, and time at the moment they are online, want to queue for PC and play that mode this is not possible with timers So...so we're clear, you want people to be able to attack a district at any time of the day with minimal notice?
Personally, I think this right here is a necessity for raiding.
No warning, if you're not paying attention to some kind of activity monitor, we could technically conduct the entire raid without you ever realizing it.
Make raids not support more than 1 squad of raiders which will be blue to one another. If other raiders decide to raid at the same time my squad is raiding, then we're red to everyone who isn't us (yay Escalation!!).
I do like the idea of needing a beachhead to mount a formal attack, there should be minimal warning (but warning nonetheless) for this beachhead attack.
Raiding NEEDS to be a thing in PC.
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Alaika Arbosa
Minmatar Republic
2404
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Posted - 2015.01.21 18:51:00 -
[5] - Quote
Kain Spero wrote:
Couldn't agree more. Personally I never wanted to be a landowner. Just a merc with a barge raiding the countryside like a Viking War Party. The system thus far has only really been open to those that want to be empire builders. Been there, controlled 99%, don't need or want to do it again.
This was one of the reasons I had no interest in PC from the start.
There was no option for people who didn't want to build an empire, I want to mount guerilla warfare against the powers-that-be and make them need to do more than just kiss their neighbors ass to hold their District and turn a profit from it.
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Alaika Arbosa
Minmatar Republic
2404
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Posted - 2015.01.21 18:59:00 -
[6] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Alaika Arbosa wrote:
Personally, I think this right here is a necessity for raiding.
No warning, if you're not paying attention to some kind of activity monitor, we could technically conduct the entire raid without you ever realizing it.
Make raids not support more than 1 squad of raiders which will be blue to one another. If other raiders decide to raid at the same time my squad is raiding, then we're red to everyone who isn't us (yay Escalation!!).
I do like the idea of needing a beachhead to mount a formal attack, there should be minimal warning (but warning nonetheless) for this beachhead attack.
Raiding NEEDS to be a thing in PC.
Raiding? Absolutely. Flipping a district? God no. Theres too much riding on the line for Suprise Buttsex PC attacks if they can take your district in the process. Battles that happen on the fly that give a PC similar experience with less riding on the line? Totally cool with that.
IDK, I agree and disagree at the same time.
Flipping a District should be possible through raiding though much, much harder to do than to just mount a formal attack.
If I am constantly raiding one of your outlying District and you never pay attention to it doesn't it make sense that I would eventually become more familiar with that District than you are?
If I raid your District a dozen times over the course of a month and you have shown no activity there wouldn't it make sense that your grip on the District would decay as my raids became more frequent?
By no means should it be a simple "we're going to raid this District tonight and it'll be ours tomorrow". Though if I wage a war of attrition on that District and you simply ignore it shouldn't it make sense that I would eventually be able to embezzle your profits while you still foot the bill on paper?
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Alaika Arbosa
Minmatar Republic
2404
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Posted - 2015.01.21 19:58:00 -
[7] - Quote
Zene Ren wrote:
raids should have minimal notice but still it should be whole alliance of the attacked that gets the message 10 to 30 minutes before raid
you should be able to flip districts always also although it should require more costs, as to set up you infrastructure, with a longer notice about 1 hour to 3 or even set up your attack for 24 h prior still with the alliance noticed when getting ready to do so.
raid would be 1 to 2 matches while flip should require 3 to 4 matches still debatable, still available all the time, we could later add still skirmish 1.0 for flipping districts for first and second match
while raids are a two stage pub matches with PC reality something for proto stompers their mode of choice w/o obligations to defend because no district will flip thus constant PC game mode will be open for vets and the income will be high like after PC match now, just w/o district
My view on raids differs from yours, here's how
Raids are a "Zero Warning" activity. What this means is that there is absolutely no warning that the raid is about to happen or is progress unless you have someone actively monitoring your District(s) on the Star Map (or some other new UI related to revamped PC).
Raiders can bring a single squad, if other Raiders are encountered on the same District they are treated as though they are red. Defenders can bring up to 16 mercs to defend their District. Defenders are obviously red to all Raiders.
Raids would be a simple single Skirmish match, Raiders controlling Letters generates Asset Wealth for the Raiders that they receive in the EoM screen. Defenders need to hold onto the Letters to prevent themselves from hemorrhaging said Asset. If the Defenders don't defend then it will be a quick match ripe with easy loot.
Perhaps eventually, there could be other benefits to Raiding that would be directly related to the SI that the Defenders had on the District.
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Alaika Arbosa
Minmatar Republic
2404
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Posted - 2015.01.21 20:11:00 -
[8] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:
Craziest thing, this "Raiding " proposal ( which I'm not against) doesn't even scratch the surface of what PC is currently, organized matches between organized combatants. All you're proposing is the ability to have a Skirmish match, but be paid for it by the district holder. You want a departure from pubs but all you've proposed just equals another pub. The gamemode doesn't change. Only the number of people available to fight.
Lame.
This is exactly the problem, you don't want PC to change from the status quo. You don't want it to evolve into something more than a glorified, overly complex tournament ladder.
Where is the Open World Sandbox gameplay if everything 100% revolves around sitting in a lobby waiting to fight the same 16 guys that you fight every time you attack a District because everyone just hires them as ringers?
We've seen where the status quo gets us, now is the time for change.
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Alaika Arbosa
Minmatar Republic
2404
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Posted - 2015.01.21 20:17:00 -
[9] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:Zene Ren wrote:Alaika Arbosa wrote:Zene Ren wrote:
raids should have minimal notice but still it should be whole alliance of the attacked that gets the message 10 to 30 minutes before raid
you should be able to flip districts always also although it should require more costs, as to set up you infrastructure, with a longer notice about 1 hour to 3 or even set up your attack for 24 h prior still with the alliance noticed when getting ready to do so.
raid would be 1 to 2 matches while flip should require 3 to 4 matches still debatable, still available all the time, we could later add still skirmish 1.0 for flipping districts for first and second match
while raids are a two stage pub matches with PC reality something for proto stompers their mode of choice w/o obligations to defend because no district will flip thus constant PC game mode will be open for vets and the income will be high like after PC match now, just w/o district
My view on raids differs from yours, here's how Raids are a "Zero Warning" activity. What this means is that there is absolutely no warning that the raid is about to happen or is progress unless you have someone actively monitoring your District(s) on the Star Map (or some other new UI related to revamped PC). Raiders can bring a single squad, if other Raiders are encountered on the same District they are treated as though they are red. Defenders can bring up to 16 mercs to defend their District. Defenders are obviously red to all Raiders. Raids would be a simple single Skirmish match, Raiders controlling Letters generates Asset Wealth for the Raiders that they receive in the EoM screen. Defenders need to hold onto the Letters to prevent themselves from hemorrhaging said Asset. If the Defenders don't defend then it will be a quick match ripe with easy loot. Perhaps eventually, there could be other benefits to Raiding that would be directly related to the SI that the Defenders had on the District. this is really nice but it will require a ton of coding when my proposal for start will just set up PC open for all at minimal cost and after that we could try some more elaborate techniques ;) No, your proposal stages a pubmatch on a PC district. It minimizes your risk potential while maximizing your reward potential. I, for one, look forward to this type of system being integrated so I and my mangy vampire dog horde friends can utilize it for our own profitability AND read through the tearthreads after about a week.
Funny thing is, the tears will be coming from those who choose to hold Districts, not those raiding them.
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Alaika Arbosa
Minmatar Republic
2405
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Posted - 2015.01.21 23:24:00 -
[10] - Quote
Thor Odinson42 wrote:Alaika Arbosa wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:
Craziest thing, this "Raiding " proposal ( which I'm not against) doesn't even scratch the surface of what PC is currently, organized matches between organized combatants. All you're proposing is the ability to have a Skirmish match, but be paid for it by the district holder. You want a departure from pubs but all you've proposed just equals another pub. The gamemode doesn't change. Only the number of people available to fight.
Lame.
This is exactly the problem, you don't want PC to change from the status quo. You don't want it to evolve into something more than a glorified, overly complex tournament ladder. Where is the Open World Sandbox gameplay if everything 100% revolves around sitting in a lobby waiting to fight the same 16 guys that you fight every time you attack a District because everyone just hires them as ringers? We've seen where the status quo gets us, now is the time for change. I don't think you are seeing where he is coming from. PC currently takes a lot of organization and planning. This is no different in huge nullsec groups. The problem we have here is that we are limited to 16 v 16. You can't have an open sandbox with 16 v 16. Why does it have to be hardmode or easy mode? Why can't it be somewhere in the middle?
Yeah, I am not seeing where he is coming from because from what I've read el Operator seems to be the Lazer Fo Cused of PC.
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Alaika Arbosa
Minmatar Republic
2405
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Posted - 2015.01.22 00:35:00 -
[11] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:Alaika Arbosa wrote:Thor Odinson42 wrote:Alaika Arbosa wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:
Craziest thing, this "Raiding " proposal ( which I'm not against) doesn't even scratch the surface of what PC is currently, organized matches between organized combatants. All you're proposing is the ability to have a Skirmish match, but be paid for it by the district holder. You want a departure from pubs but all you've proposed just equals another pub. The gamemode doesn't change. Only the number of people available to fight.
Lame.
This is exactly the problem, you don't want PC to change from the status quo. You don't want it to evolve into something more than a glorified, overly complex tournament ladder. Where is the Open World Sandbox gameplay if everything 100% revolves around sitting in a lobby waiting to fight the same 16 guys that you fight every time you attack a District because everyone just hires them as ringers? We've seen where the status quo gets us, now is the time for change. I don't think you are seeing where he is coming from. PC currently takes a lot of organization and planning. This is no different in huge nullsec groups. The problem we have here is that we are limited to 16 v 16. You can't have an open sandbox with 16 v 16. Why does it have to be hardmode or easy mode? Why can't it be somewhere in the middle? Yeah, I am not seeing where he is coming from because from what I've read el Operator seems to be the Lazer Fo Cused of PC. Just el OPERATOR, thanks. Like the sig reads, main and original. Someday I'll remember to add "Only".
Again, Reading Comprehension.
Another way to say what I did is that you are to PC what Lazer Fo Cused is to Vehicle balance.
Never did I say that you had an alt named Lazer Fo Cused (because frankly I already know that is Takahiro Kashuken)
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Alaika Arbosa
Minmatar Republic
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Posted - 2015.01.22 13:35:00 -
[12] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:
Right right. I think this is a step in the right direction honestly.
Another factor I'd like to see is:
Larger the Stakes = Larger the Notice.
If you're sending six (6) guys to just cause a ruckus but not actually take anything, I'm totally cool with a one (1) hour timer. Ten (10) guys to cause even more of a ruckus but nothing permanent? Eh, four (4) or six (6) hours couldn't hurt. But if you're sending a full team to try and secure a district take over - full on invasion sort of stuff - the enemy team needs more time to prepare.
Yes, because every war ever wasn't started without a telegraphed notice.
You mentioned Stront earlier, why not incorporate a mechanic like that?
We attack you, you get 5 minutes notice (if that). This first battle determines if we succeed in establishing a beachhead on your District. We succeed and your District goes into RF mode for X hours before coming out of it and being available for attack again (the District should still be raidable while RFed though). Second battle determines if we take the District.
This way, there is the element of surprise from the attacker and (if they know how much Stront is in the District) they can dictate when the second battle will occur. However the defenders can guarantee themselves a "preparation window" to get ready for the actual battle.
I understand why there needs to be a way to prevent constant District flipping once the owners go to sleep, though there needs to be an element of surprise to the whole affair.
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Alaika Arbosa
Minmatar Republic
2406
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Posted - 2015.01.22 13:46:00 -
[13] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:
And that is relevant how to the discussion at hand??
Except for the analogy of PC now being like Vehicles then, in which case you may have a winner since while (look it up) the forums were full of trash players QQing about vehicle imbalance I was playing matches and utterly eviscerating ezmode vehicle pilots with my PLC/AV nade combo. While posting that, while imbalanced for sure, vehicles were FAR from invincible OR unkillable.
So if I'm LazorFocused, I guess you'd have to beee.... random forum playertrash that doesn't even participate in the gamemode you are trying to dictate settings for.
Wow, you really are intellectually challenged aren't you?
The analogy had nothing to do with PC v Vehicles and everything to do with you being for PC what Lazer Fo Cused is for Vehicles.
Which is to say, inflammatory, needlessly obtuse and excessively narcissistic.
I am sorry that you could understand that from the first time I posted it and then felt the need to insult me because I'm not a monosyllabic mouthbreather like you are.
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Alaika Arbosa
Minmatar Republic
2409
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Posted - 2015.01.22 20:54:00 -
[14] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:
Sure, kid.
You're the intellectual litmus for all of DUST514, anyone that doesn't think so is an intellectually challenged mouth breather and PC is bad or wrong somehow.
I'm not sorry that I, in my mouthbreathing, intellectual inferiority, have been able to learn DUST, work at it and earn a place in PC. Didn't happen overnight, didn't happen by crying about it not being fair, didn't happen by talking down the other people who worked to get it done.
Fact is, for all your intellectual superiority and my inflammatory inferiority, YOU were the individual to start with the negative associations, while I AM one of the few individuals in this conversation who've been able to find solutions to problems instead of just crying about the existence of problems.
idgaf who LazorFocused is, how he expressed himself somewhere else at some other time, igaf that some scrub bullshitter like you, who has already said he never wanted **** to do with PC NOW wants to turn around and dictate ANY evolutionary element to it. All so that when it (again) isn't exactly how you want it to be you can be a dismissive whiner and cry on the forums about it while I go relearn the skills to be successful and move forward
Aww, is the open beta newb mad now?
Want to know why I never had a desire to participate in PC? Because I knew from the DevBlog before it was released that it was going to be a rushed POS popularity contest.
Want to know why I am adding my two cents now? Because I hope that PC2.0 is something that surpasses the garbage that PC1.0 is/was and IMHO some of the ideas I've had will help that to occur.
Even if it isn't the ideal scenario I picture it to be in mind, I will participate in PC2.0.
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Alaika Arbosa
Minmatar Republic
2410
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Posted - 2015.01.22 22:47:00 -
[15] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:Self-Important Tripe
You're still on this?
You simply want to derail this thread further and have stopped "contributing". While you're fumbling to insult me and look cool, I'll be trying to be constructive.
On Topic: Timers should exist as fuel with little to no timer for the initial assault though the main attack shouldn't occur until after the fuel runs out (if the attackers win the initial assault)
Seriously though, when German National Socialists invaded Poland in 1939 did they send a telegraph first saying:
Hello,
We're going to come visit you next week for genocide and annexation.
Prepare thy anus.
--Sincerely,
Adolph H.
No, they didn't, warning is only something you should get if you can turn one of the attackers so they inform you or by planting a spy of your own in their organization.
As I said earlier in the thread, I understand the need for some "delay the final battle" mechanic, though to have that delay occur before aggressions have is just asinine. Even if it is requiring people to attack within an 8 hour window, that in effect is still warning since the aggressors will be attacking when the defenders choose to allow them the opportunity.
Giving little to no warning will keep corps vigilant.
Requiring Fuel to delay the seizure attempt is a reasonable timer in that it gives the defenders an amount of time that they can control in which to gather their troops (whether they be corporate members or independent contractors).
This allows attackers to still retain the element of surprise while also giving the defenders a way to actively delay the attack on their District.
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