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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
3487
   |
Posted - 2014.12.01 00:24:00 -
[1] - Quote
I would like to start (or revisit) this conversation to see where the community's head is at as far as which is the more effective choice. I've had arguments with Cat Merc because he feels that armor tanking gets the short end of the stick and I can't believe how he could think that. Shield suits, tanks, ADS are at a disadvantage to armor suits in so many ways. And I just read a thread about shields vs armor in the feedback section and I want to open up the dialogue on this.
I'll start by saying I think that armor tanking beats out shield tanking, generally, more times than not. If you shield tank as opposed to armor or dual tank then you have to play the scared role. Even as a cal heavy....you are subject to flux grenades and +20% scrambler rifle (most OP rifle in the game) ammunition. Shields are your first line of defense. If your first line is your major line of defense and it is gone rapidly, you are strung out of luck. If you armor tank, and you get surprised and lose your shields to a flux or a scrambler rifle...you still have time to react and enough health to defend yourself.
I can really go further but I'd like to open up the floor for discussion...
> Check RND out here
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Ace Boone
Capital Acquisitions LLC
495
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Posted - 2014.12.01 00:29:00 -
[2] - Quote
That's because stacking shields can give you similar eHP to someone that stacks armor, with a lot more speed.
Only loyal to the republic.
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
2964
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 00:31:00 -
[3] - Quote
All shields need are better inherent regen on the shield tanking suits (i.e. lower delays and higher recharge rates)
Minmitar suits should have lowest delays, but not as high shield HP or recharge rate as Caldari.
However, all min/cal suits (except for scouts) need better shield regen stats inherently.
"Minja" and "Masochist" are synonyms.
FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ
I piss Remote Explosives and shit Shotgun shells.
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
3487
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 00:32:00 -
[4] - Quote
Ace Boone wrote:That's because stacking shields can give you similar eHP to someone that stacks armor, with a lot more speed.
Complex ferroscale plates are 75hp of armor as opposed to complex shield extenders @ 66hp. So, you can stack more ehp on an armor tanked suit and still maintain the same speed
> Check RND out here
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
15248
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Posted - 2014.12.01 00:32:00 -
[5] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
I would like to start (or revisit) this conversation to see where the community's head is at as far as which is the more effective choice. I've had arguments with Cat Merc because he feels that armor tanking gets the short end of the stick and I can't believe how he could think that. Shield suits, tanks, ADS are at a disadvantage to armor suits in so many ways. And I just read a thread about shields vs armor in the feedback section and I want to open up the dialogue on this.
I'll start by saying I think that armor tanking beats out shield tanking, generally, more times than not. If you shield tank as opposed to armor or dual tank then you have to play the scared role. Even as a cal heavy....you are subject to flux grenades and +20% scrambler rifle (most OP rifle in the game) ammunition. Shields are your first line of defense. If your first line is your major line of defense and it is gone rapidly, you are strung out of luck. If you armor tank, and you get surprised and lose your shields to a flux or a scrambler rifle...you still have time to react and enough health to defend yourself.
I can really go further but I'd like to open up the floor for discussion...
Nope the Shield HAV is statistically better than the Armour HAV.
I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this.
Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
2964
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Posted - 2014.12.01 00:32:00 -
[6] - Quote
Ace Boone wrote:That's because stacking shields can give you similar eHP to someone that stacks armor, with a lot more speed.
Strafe speed is relatively unaffected by armor plates, unless they are brick tanked, and especially not if they are using ferroscales.
Shield suits get kin cats and profile dampeners in the off tank, while armor tankers get damage mods and precision enhancers.
Shield vehicles are generally better than armor, simply because of the AV weapons currently available to people in the game, as well as maneuverability of the vehicles themselves.
"Minja" and "Masochist" are synonyms.
FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ
I piss Remote Explosives and shit Shotgun shells.
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Ace Boone
Capital Acquisitions LLC
496
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 00:33:00 -
[7] - Quote
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:All shields need are better inherent regen on the shield tanking suits (i.e. lower delays and higher recharge rates)
Minmitar suits should have lowest delays, but not as high shield HP or recharge rate as Caldari.
However, all min/cal suits (except for scouts) need better shield regen stats inherently.
My min assaults regen is a bit disappointing unless I put on regulators.
Armor reps through damage, and HP tanking is more effective because of that. If Shields repped through damage, they would be OP, but since armor does, it's the best imo.
But I shield tank everything, so what am I saying.
Only loyal to the republic.
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Moochie Cricket
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
845
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 00:34:00 -
[8] - Quote
I would love to see a much higher base shield recharge rate or maybe have energizers/rechargers getting a massive buff.
FOR THE STATE
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
2964
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 00:35:00 -
[9] - Quote
Ace Boone wrote:Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:All shields need are better inherent regen on the shield tanking suits (i.e. lower delays and higher recharge rates)
Minmitar suits should have lowest delays, but not as high shield HP or recharge rate as Caldari.
However, all min/cal suits (except for scouts) need better shield regen stats inherently. My min assaults regen is a bit disappointing unless I put on regulators. Armor reps through damage, and HP tanking is more effective because of that. If Shields repped through damage, they would be OP, but since armor does, it's the best imo. But I shield tank everything, so what am I saying.
Exactly. People often forget that armor regen, especially on Gallente suits, is crazy good in combat. In the time it takes a scout to decloak, an 800 HP gal assault with full strafe speed and triple damage mods can recover 80+ armor with ease, even while being hit.
"Minja" and "Masochist" are synonyms.
FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ
I piss Remote Explosives and shit Shotgun shells.
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Denchlad 7
Dead Man's Game
1340
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 00:37:00 -
[10] - Quote
Shield Vehicles > Armor Vehicles.
Only exception may be LAVs. But Saga-II says otherwise.
Shield Dropsuits < Armor Dropsuits.
I use both. Caldari suits feel like paper - Amarr/Gallente feel like a literal tank.
The Connoisseur of Weapons.
19/19 Level 5, 19/19 Proficiency 3.
Excessively British. Tea is the drink of Gods.
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hfderrtgvcd
1394
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Posted - 2014.12.01 00:38:00 -
[11] - Quote
They're pretty balanced imo. Shields have better speed and regen with a delay while armor has better hp without a delay. The only thing that needs to be fixed is the higher cpu/pg of shield extenders and the poor delays on the min and cal assaults.
You can't fight in here! This is the war room.
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
15250
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 00:39:00 -
[12] - Quote
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:Ace Boone wrote:That's because stacking shields can give you similar eHP to someone that stacks armor, with a lot more speed.
Strafe speed is relatively unaffected by armor plates, unless they are brick tanked, and especially not if they are using ferroscales. Shield suits get kin cats and profile dampeners in the off tank, while armor tankers get damage mods and precision enhancers. Shield vehicles are generally better than armor, simply because of the AV weapons currently available to people in the game, as well as maneuverability of the vehicles themselves.
I do also want to point out the utility modules that as an armour tanker I value most the Hack Module and Kin Cats.......are all lows.
Would sacrifice damage modules to lows (where they should be) for those utilities.
I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this.
Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
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Nocturnal Soul
Primordial Threat
4689
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 00:44:00 -
[13] - Quote
Can't really take you seriously when you just called the Scr the most OP rifle in the game while the Cr remains king.
(Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
LASERS BTCH!!!!!!
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
2964
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Posted - 2014.12.01 00:45:00 -
[14] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:Ace Boone wrote:That's because stacking shields can give you similar eHP to someone that stacks armor, with a lot more speed.
Strafe speed is relatively unaffected by armor plates, unless they are brick tanked, and especially not if they are using ferroscales. Shield suits get kin cats and profile dampeners in the off tank, while armor tankers get damage mods and precision enhancers. Shield vehicles are generally better than armor, simply because of the AV weapons currently available to people in the game, as well as maneuverability of the vehicles themselves. I do also want to point out the utility modules that as an armour tanker I value most the Hack Module and Kin Cats.......are all lows. Would sacrifice damage modules to lows (where they should be) for those utilities.
Kincats should stay as lows. Myofibs should give a slight speed bonus and hack mods should be moved to highs.
"Minja" and "Masochist" are synonyms.
FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ
I piss Remote Explosives and shit Shotgun shells.
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
15250
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Posted - 2014.12.01 00:47:00 -
[15] - Quote
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:True Adamance wrote:Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:Ace Boone wrote:That's because stacking shields can give you similar eHP to someone that stacks armor, with a lot more speed.
Strafe speed is relatively unaffected by armor plates, unless they are brick tanked, and especially not if they are using ferroscales. Shield suits get kin cats and profile dampeners in the off tank, while armor tankers get damage mods and precision enhancers. Shield vehicles are generally better than armor, simply because of the AV weapons currently available to people in the game, as well as maneuverability of the vehicles themselves. I do also want to point out the utility modules that as an armour tanker I value most the Hack Module and Kin Cats.......are all lows. Would sacrifice damage modules to lows (where they should be) for those utilities. Kincats should stay as lows. Myofibs should give a slight speed bonus and hack mods should be moved to highs.
It's just an opinion anyway.
I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this.
Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
|
Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
3489
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 00:47:00 -
[16] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
I would like to start (or revisit) this conversation to see where the community's head is at as far as which is the more effective choice. I've had arguments with Cat Merc because he feels that armor tanking gets the short end of the stick and I can't believe how he could think that. Shield suits, tanks, ADS are at a disadvantage to armor suits in so many ways. And I just read a thread about shields vs armor in the feedback section and I want to open up the dialogue on this.
I'll start by saying I think that armor tanking beats out shield tanking, generally, more times than not. If you shield tank as opposed to armor or dual tank then you have to play the scared role. Even as a cal heavy....you are subject to flux grenades and +20% scrambler rifle (most OP rifle in the game) ammunition. Shields are your first line of defense. If your first line is your major line of defense and it is gone rapidly, you are strung out of luck. If you armor tank, and you get surprised and lose your shields to a flux or a scrambler rifle...you still have time to react and enough health to defend yourself.
I can really go further but I'd like to open up the floor for discussion...
Nope the Shield HAV is statistically better than the Armour HAV. Better fitting capacity (evinced by the "EHP ***** Sica" which can fit a whole proto line up and field 9K EHP vs Explosive AV) Better tracking and mobility optiions that reduce the penalties of slow tracking turrets Comprable and better EHP values Better stand and deliver capacity Better passive regen capacity (168 per second without even fitting a module after 4 seconds) Access to fitting modules without sacrificing racial tank
all of that sounds good but can a shield rail or blaster beat a maddy blaster 1v1? Even a maddy rail has advantages. I don't know much about the fitting requirements of a maddy but most of the health is in the low slots and they can still have dmg mods without sacrificing health.
> Check RND out here
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
3489
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Posted - 2014.12.01 00:48:00 -
[17] - Quote
hfderrtgvcd wrote:They're pretty balanced imo. Shields have better speed and regen with a delay while armor has better hp without a delay. The only thing that needs to be fixed is the higher cpu/pg of shield extenders and the poor delays on the min and cal assaults.
why do you say they have better speed?
> Check RND out here
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
3490
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 00:49:00 -
[18] - Quote
Nocturnal Soul wrote:Can't really take you seriously when you just called the Scr the most OP rifle in the game while the Cr remains king.
?? Can't really take you seriously for thinking the same about the CR
> Check RND out here
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
2965
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Posted - 2014.12.01 00:50:00 -
[19] - Quote
Nocturnal Soul wrote:Can't really take you seriously when you just called the Scr the most OP rifle in the game while the Cr remains king.
I think we can all agree that the BrAR is far stronger than either of those weapons.
"Minja" and "Masochist" are synonyms.
FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ
I piss Remote Explosives and shit Shotgun shells.
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DeadlyAztec11
Ostrakon Agency
6232
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 00:51:00 -
[20] - Quote
The Minmatar Assault needs a lot better base regen because right now using shield charging mods is a waste because they just don't do enough given our amount of shields and base stats.
It's always better to opt for stacking shield mods on the Minmatar Assault rather than running a recharging mod and thar shouldn't be.
Put your flags up in the sky.
And wave them side to side.
Show the world where you're from.
Show the world we are one.
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hfderrtgvcd
1394
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Posted - 2014.12.01 00:52:00 -
[21] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:hfderrtgvcd wrote:They're pretty balanced imo. Shields have better speed and regen with a delay while armor has better hp without a delay. The only thing that needs to be fixed is the higher cpu/pg of shield extenders and the poor delays on the min and cal assaults. why do you say they have better speed?
armor plates have speed penalties. Unless you're talking about ferroscales, which makes the hp difference much smaller.
You can't fight in here! This is the war room.
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
3490
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 00:53:00 -
[22] - Quote
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:Nocturnal Soul wrote:Can't really take you seriously when you just called the Scr the most OP rifle in the game while the Cr remains king. I think we can all agree that the BrAR is far stronger than either of those weapons.
Not even the breach is better than the SCR
> Check RND out here
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DeadlyAztec11
Ostrakon Agency
6232
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Posted - 2014.12.01 00:53:00 -
[23] - Quote
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:Nocturnal Soul wrote:Can't really take you seriously when you just called the Scr the most OP rifle in the game while the Cr remains king. I think we can all agree that the BrAR is far stronger than either of those weapons.
My Advanced Scrambler Rifle, with two Complex Light Damage Modifers, begs to difffer.
Put your flags up in the sky.
And wave them side to side.
Show the world where you're from.
Show the world we are one.
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
3490
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 00:54:00 -
[24] - Quote
hfderrtgvcd wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:hfderrtgvcd wrote:They're pretty balanced imo. Shields have better speed and regen with a delay while armor has better hp without a delay. The only thing that needs to be fixed is the higher cpu/pg of shield extenders and the poor delays on the min and cal assaults. why do you say they have better speed? armor plates have speed penalties. Unless you're talking about ferroscales, which makes the hp difference much smaller.
right...even the ferroscale plates have more hp than the shield extenders. If you want even more tank and be even more ridiculous you can sacrifice a little speed.
Hell, armor tankers even have a mod that gives them hp and armor regen combined. I wish shield suits had a mod that had dual benefits.
> Check RND out here
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Nocturnal Soul
Primordial Threat
4689
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Posted - 2014.12.01 00:54:00 -
[25] - Quote
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:Nocturnal Soul wrote:Can't really take you seriously when you just called the Scr the most OP rifle in the game while the Cr remains king. I think we can all agree that the BrAR is far stronger than either of those weapons.
Tbh I think it's barely OP, it just needs an adjustment to its kick but that's all.
(Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
LASERS BTCH!!!!!!
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hfderrtgvcd
1394
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Posted - 2014.12.01 00:55:00 -
[26] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:hfderrtgvcd wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:hfderrtgvcd wrote:They're pretty balanced imo. Shields have better speed and regen with a delay while armor has better hp without a delay. The only thing that needs to be fixed is the higher cpu/pg of shield extenders and the poor delays on the min and cal assaults. why do you say they have better speed? armor plates have speed penalties. Unless you're talking about ferroscales, which makes the hp difference much smaller. right...even the ferroscale plates have more hp than the shield extenders. If you want even more tank and be even more ridiculous you can sacrifice a little speed. Hell, armor tankers even have a mod that gives them hp and armor regen combined. I wish shield suits had a mod that had dual benefits.
Shields suits still have much better regen though
You can't fight in here! This is the war room.
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
3490
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 00:56:00 -
[27] - Quote
DeadlyAztec11 wrote:The Minmatar Assault needs a lot better base regen because right now using shield charging mods is a waste because they just don't do enough given our amount of shields and base stats.
It's always better to opt for stacking shield mods on the Minmatar Assault rather than running a recharging mod and thar shouldn't be.
The winmatar assault has so many advantages that I can understand the regen not being up to par.....and I love minmatar :)
> Check RND out here
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
13454
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 00:57:00 -
[28] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
I would like to start (or revisit) this conversation to see where the community's head is at as far as which is the more effective choice. I've had arguments with Cat Merc because he feels that armor tanking gets the short end of the stick and I can't believe how he could think that. Shield suits, tanks, ADS are at a disadvantage to armor suits in so many ways. And I just read a thread about shields vs armor in the feedback section and I want to open up the dialogue on this.
I'll start by saying I think that armor tanking beats out shield tanking, generally, more times than not. If you shield tank as opposed to armor or dual tank then you have to play the scared role. Even as a cal heavy....you are subject to flux grenades and +20% scrambler rifle (most OP rifle in the game) ammunition. Shields are your first line of defense. If your first line is your major line of defense and it is gone rapidly, you are strung out of luck. If you armor tank, and you get surprised and lose your shields to a flux or a scrambler rifle...you still have time to react and enough health to defend yourself.
I can really go further but I'd like to open up the floor for discussion...
We've had these conversations quite a long time ago dubbs.
I believe armor no longer gets the short end of the stick, but neither do shields.
They're fairly balanced, you've just got to realize that they come with different play styles.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
3490
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 00:57:00 -
[29] - Quote
hfderrtgvcd wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:hfderrtgvcd wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:hfderrtgvcd wrote:They're pretty balanced imo. Shields have better speed and regen with a delay while armor has better hp without a delay. The only thing that needs to be fixed is the higher cpu/pg of shield extenders and the poor delays on the min and cal assaults. why do you say they have better speed? armor plates have speed penalties. Unless you're talking about ferroscales, which makes the hp difference much smaller. right...even the ferroscale plates have more hp than the shield extenders. If you want even more tank and be even more ridiculous you can sacrifice a little speed. Hell, armor tankers even have a mod that gives them hp and armor regen combined. I wish shield suits had a mod that had dual benefits. Shields suits still have much better regen though
they do..that is probably the only thing that shield has a plus on in regards to armor tanking. But that doesn't tip the scales...regen can't help you in a 1v1. Also armor reps through damage, there is no delay
> Check RND out here
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Nocturnal Soul
Primordial Threat
4689
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Posted - 2014.12.01 00:58:00 -
[30] - Quote
On to the topic matter, the only thing the shield suits need in my opinion and time playing in them is that the down time is completely insane. I honestly find it impossible to heavily rely on shields as my main hp when you et so little of it.
(Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
LASERS BTCH!!!!!!
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
3490
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 00:58:00 -
[31] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
I would like to start (or revisit) this conversation to see where the community's head is at as far as which is the more effective choice. I've had arguments with Cat Merc because he feels that armor tanking gets the short end of the stick and I can't believe how he could think that. Shield suits, tanks, ADS are at a disadvantage to armor suits in so many ways. And I just read a thread about shields vs armor in the feedback section and I want to open up the dialogue on this.
I'll start by saying I think that armor tanking beats out shield tanking, generally, more times than not. If you shield tank as opposed to armor or dual tank then you have to play the scared role. Even as a cal heavy....you are subject to flux grenades and +20% scrambler rifle (most OP rifle in the game) ammunition. Shields are your first line of defense. If your first line is your major line of defense and it is gone rapidly, you are strung out of luck. If you armor tank, and you get surprised and lose your shields to a flux or a scrambler rifle...you still have time to react and enough health to defend yourself.
I can really go further but I'd like to open up the floor for discussion...
We've had these conversations quite a long time ago dubbs. I believe armor no longer gets the short end of the stick, but neither do shields. They're fairly balanced, you've just got to realize that they come with different play styles.
So, you've changed your mind? :)
> Check RND out here
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
13454
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 01:00:00 -
[32] - Quote
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:Ace Boone wrote:Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:All shields need are better inherent regen on the shield tanking suits (i.e. lower delays and higher recharge rates)
Minmitar suits should have lowest delays, but not as high shield HP or recharge rate as Caldari.
However, all min/cal suits (except for scouts) need better shield regen stats inherently. My min assaults regen is a bit disappointing unless I put on regulators. Armor reps through damage, and HP tanking is more effective because of that. If Shields repped through damage, they would be OP, but since armor does, it's the best imo. But I shield tank everything, so what am I saying. Exactly. People often forget that armor regen, especially on Gallente suits, is crazy good in combat. In the time it takes a scout to decloak, an 800 HP gal assault with full strafe speed and triple damage mods can recover 80+ armor with ease, even while being hit.
80 armor is about 2.5 bullets from most weapons on the battlefield.
I also don't see how we regenerate 80 armor in the time it takes a scout to decloak.
Getting 30hp/s is the absolute max you will see on a Gallente Assault, and that will usually limit you to 500-600 armor HP with speed penalties.
20hp/s and about 520 armor HP and 8m/s is what I usually run on my Gal Assaults.
I can build a Cal Assault with 50hp/s, 600 shields, 8m/s sprint and 1-2 second delays.
The only advantage my Gal Assault gets over the Cal Assault are the two damage mods.
When it comes to pure tank, the Cal Assault is superior in most ways.
Considering it takes 1 second for a scout to decloak and fire his gun...
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
13454
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 01:01:00 -
[33] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
I would like to start (or revisit) this conversation to see where the community's head is at as far as which is the more effective choice. I've had arguments with Cat Merc because he feels that armor tanking gets the short end of the stick and I can't believe how he could think that. Shield suits, tanks, ADS are at a disadvantage to armor suits in so many ways. And I just read a thread about shields vs armor in the feedback section and I want to open up the dialogue on this.
I'll start by saying I think that armor tanking beats out shield tanking, generally, more times than not. If you shield tank as opposed to armor or dual tank then you have to play the scared role. Even as a cal heavy....you are subject to flux grenades and +20% scrambler rifle (most OP rifle in the game) ammunition. Shields are your first line of defense. If your first line is your major line of defense and it is gone rapidly, you are strung out of luck. If you armor tank, and you get surprised and lose your shields to a flux or a scrambler rifle...you still have time to react and enough health to defend yourself.
I can really go further but I'd like to open up the floor for discussion...
We've had these conversations quite a long time ago dubbs. I believe armor no longer gets the short end of the stick, but neither do shields. They're fairly balanced, you've just got to realize that they come with different play styles. So, you've changed your mind? :)
Yes, after the armor buffs back in 1.4(?), and the shield buffs in the various hotfixes, I think armor and shields are fairly balanced for infantry.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
13454
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Posted - 2014.12.01 01:07:00 -
[34] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:hfderrtgvcd wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:hfderrtgvcd wrote:They're pretty balanced imo. Shields have better speed and regen with a delay while armor has better hp without a delay. The only thing that needs to be fixed is the higher cpu/pg of shield extenders and the poor delays on the min and cal assaults. why do you say they have better speed? armor plates have speed penalties. Unless you're talking about ferroscales, which makes the hp difference much smaller. right...even the ferroscale plates have more hp than the shield extenders. If you want even more tank and be even more ridiculous you can sacrifice a little speed. Hell, armor tankers even have a mod that gives them hp and armor regen combined. I wish shield suits had a mod that had dual benefits.
Your BASE regen is exceptionally powerful, we have to sacrifice slots to get any decent regen.
You can't simply look at Ferroscales HP vs Shield Extender HP and say that ferroscales are better.
That 10 extra HP regenerates much slower without mods, and if you fit reppers you can fit less ferroscales, which means the HP difference becomes non existent. (In fact, when building ferro suits, my Cal Assault tends to out HP my Gal Assault)
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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DeadlyAztec11
Ostrakon Agency
6232
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 01:08:00 -
[35] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:DeadlyAztec11 wrote:The Minmatar Assault needs a lot better base regen because right now using shield charging mods is a waste because they just don't do enough given our amount of shields and base stats.
It's always better to opt for stacking shield mods on the Minmatar Assault rather than running a recharging mod and thar shouldn't be. The winmatar assault has so many advantages that I can understand the regen not being up to par.....and I love minmatar :)
Yeah, but the deal is that the Caldari should really be the shield tankers. While the Minmatar should be shield re energizers. I.E they should be able to quickly attack and then leave to recharge quickly then pop out again.
Ideally they should mirror the relationship between the Amarr and Gallente I.E the Amarr stack armor while the Gallente stack reps to recover quickly.
Currently the Caldari and Minmatar symbiosis is wack because right now the Minmatar is just a faster weaker Caldari suit, but it should be more than that. The Minmatar should have the best shield recharge and it should be a viable playing style.
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
2969
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 01:09:00 -
[36] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:Ace Boone wrote:Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:All shields need are better inherent regen on the shield tanking suits (i.e. lower delays and higher recharge rates)
Minmitar suits should have lowest delays, but not as high shield HP or recharge rate as Caldari.
However, all min/cal suits (except for scouts) need better shield regen stats inherently. My min assaults regen is a bit disappointing unless I put on regulators. Armor reps through damage, and HP tanking is more effective because of that. If Shields repped through damage, they would be OP, but since armor does, it's the best imo. But I shield tank everything, so what am I saying. Exactly. People often forget that armor regen, especially on Gallente suits, is crazy good in combat. In the time it takes a scout to decloak, an 800 HP gal assault with full strafe speed and triple damage mods can recover 80+ armor with ease, even while being hit. 80 armor is about 2.5 bullets from most weapons on the battlefield. I also don't see how we regenerate 80 armor in the time it takes a scout to decloak. Getting 30hp/s is the absolute max you will see on a Gallente Assault, and that will usually limit you to 500-600 armor HP with speed penalties. 20hp/s and about 520 armor HP and 8m/s is what I usually run on my Gal Assaults. I can build a Cal Assault with 50hp/s, 600 shields, 8m/s sprint and 1-2 second delays. The only advantage my Gal Assault gets over the Cal Assault are the two damage mods. When it comes to pure tank, the Cal Assault is superior in most ways. Considering it takes 1 second for a scout to decloak and fire his gun...
Its 4 seconds from the beginning of the decloak.
A well fit Gal Assault will have 800 total HP, and ~23 reps per second (2 complex reppers)
"Minja" and "Masochist" are synonyms.
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I piss Remote Explosives and shit Shotgun shells.
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Nocturnal Soul
Primordial Threat
4689
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 01:10:00 -
[37] - Quote
The Amarr generally don't hp stack... we resistance tank
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LASERS BTCH!!!!!!
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
15253
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 01:11:00 -
[38] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:True Adamance wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
I would like to start (or revisit) this conversation to see where the community's head is at as far as which is the more effective choice. I've had arguments with Cat Merc because he feels that armor tanking gets the short end of the stick and I can't believe how he could think that. Shield suits, tanks, ADS are at a disadvantage to armor suits in so many ways. And I just read a thread about shields vs armor in the feedback section and I want to open up the dialogue on this.
I'll start by saying I think that armor tanking beats out shield tanking, generally, more times than not. If you shield tank as opposed to armor or dual tank then you have to play the scared role. Even as a cal heavy....you are subject to flux grenades and +20% scrambler rifle (most OP rifle in the game) ammunition. Shields are your first line of defense. If your first line is your major line of defense and it is gone rapidly, you are strung out of luck. If you armor tank, and you get surprised and lose your shields to a flux or a scrambler rifle...you still have time to react and enough health to defend yourself.
I can really go further but I'd like to open up the floor for discussion...
Nope the Shield HAV is statistically better than the Armour HAV. Better fitting capacity (evinced by the "EHP ***** Sica" which can fit a whole proto line up and field 9K EHP vs Explosive AV) Better tracking and mobility optiions that reduce the penalties of slow tracking turrets Comprable and better EHP values Better stand and deliver capacity Better passive regen capacity (168 per second without even fitting a module after 4 seconds) Access to fitting modules without sacrificing racial tank all of that sounds good but can a shield rail or blaster beat a maddy blaster 1v1? Even a maddy rail has advantages. I don't know much about the fitting requirements of a maddy but most of the health is in the low slots and they can still have dmg mods without sacrificing health.
That's debatable. Really too many factors to consider.
Blasters are anti-shield weapons specifically, moreover beyond that there are only two of more than a dozen anti-shield AV options. Now in many respects I would suggest that a Blaster Gunnlogi has a fair chance due to its naturally higher EHP however the strength of Gallente tanks becomes apparent in long engagement.
Why would you ever need to?
But when you can have significantly more EHP than your opponent why not simply take the better option and go for missiles and Railguns both of which have range, DPS, and Anti Armour values over shields.
But lets look at two comparable fits.
Madrugar - Ion Cannon
1x ComplexArmour Hardener
2x Complex Heavy Armour Repairers
(CPU is already over allotment before I even turn to damage modules or Scanners)
((Genuinely am trying but cannot fit a damage module without sacrificing down to Standard Armour Modules or CPU extender))
instead
1x Basic Armour Hardener
2x Advanced Heavy Armour Repairer
1x Basic Nitrous
1x Basic Scanner
You have
1200 Shield 4000 Armour
5000 Armour EHP
Passive reps at 225 per second.
On my Gunnlogi - Ion Cannon'
1x Complex Shield Extender
1x Basic Blaster Damage Module
1x Complex Shield Hardener
1x Complex 120mm Armour Plating
1x Complex PG Extender
I have
3950 Shield and 3385 Armour
5530 Shield EHP
Passive reps during Blaster Cool down @ 168 (no modules required)
+10% damage
Now while in a head on fight the Gunnlogi probably loses with Blasters due to the modifiers vs Armour it will almost always better to go with Rails or Missiles in which during another head on engagement it always wins.
But surely you can see right here the disparity in terms of fitting potential Hell even a Sica would give a Madrugar a run for its money with Rails or Missiles.
I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this.
Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
13454
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 01:13:00 -
[39] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
I would like to start (or revisit) this conversation to see where the community's head is at as far as which is the more effective choice. I've had arguments with Cat Merc because he feels that armor tanking gets the short end of the stick and I can't believe how he could think that. Shield suits, tanks, ADS are at a disadvantage to armor suits in so many ways. And I just read a thread about shields vs armor in the feedback section and I want to open up the dialogue on this.
I'll start by saying I think that armor tanking beats out shield tanking, generally, more times than not. If you shield tank as opposed to armor or dual tank then you have to play the scared role. Even as a cal heavy....you are subject to flux grenades and +20% scrambler rifle (most OP rifle in the game) ammunition. Shields are your first line of defense. If your first line is your major line of defense and it is gone rapidly, you are strung out of luck. If you armor tank, and you get surprised and lose your shields to a flux or a scrambler rifle...you still have time to react and enough health to defend yourself.
I can really go further but I'd like to open up the floor for discussion...
We've had these conversations quite a long time ago dubbs. I believe armor no longer gets the short end of the stick, but neither do shields. They're fairly balanced, you've just got to realize that they come with different play styles. I do agree there is no 'real' OP suit at the moment. It is based primarily on play style. But there is more advantages to armor tank as opposed to shield tanking. And I'm thinking mostly...during 1v1 encounters. Because anyone can shoot you in the back or destroy your tank if they have you flanked.
No, not at all.
If an Armor suit has more HP than a shield suit, it either has extremely weak regen, which makes it poor at multiple close engagements, or extremely slow, which makes it closer to a sentinel than an Assault.
I have more problems with Caldari Assaults than with Amarr Assaults, despite my main weapon being anti shield.
Why?
Because Amarr Assaults can't strafe for crap.
Same for plated Gallente.
I also do not see what you're trying to imply with flanking.
HP is HP, whatever pool of HP you lose first doesn't matter, if you lost 500 HP of shields I probably lost my 200 shields and 300 armor, leaving us both equally ******.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
3492
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 01:14:00 -
[40] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:hfderrtgvcd wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:hfderrtgvcd wrote:They're pretty balanced imo. Shields have better speed and regen with a delay while armor has better hp without a delay. The only thing that needs to be fixed is the higher cpu/pg of shield extenders and the poor delays on the min and cal assaults. why do you say they have better speed? armor plates have speed penalties. Unless you're talking about ferroscales, which makes the hp difference much smaller. right...even the ferroscale plates have more hp than the shield extenders. If you want even more tank and be even more ridiculous you can sacrifice a little speed. Hell, armor tankers even have a mod that gives them hp and armor regen combined. I wish shield suits had a mod that had dual benefits. Your BASE regen is exceptionally powerful, we have to sacrifice slots to get any decent regen. You can't simply look at Ferroscales HP vs Shield Extender HP and say that ferroscales are better. That 10 extra HP regenerates much slower without mods, and if you fit reppers you can fit less ferroscales, which means the HP difference becomes non existent. (In fact, when building ferro suits, my Cal Assault tends to out HP my Gal Assault)
Our base regen is 30 and the more we use the more the delay for regen is penalized.
But it isn't about just the numbers on the suit. I'm talking about effectiveness. You can stack 4 ferroscales and a repper on a gal assault with a triage nanohive AND use damage mods without sacrificing the majority of where your health comes from. Plus, armor is the second line of defense, so you also have shield regen to help protect you as well.
> Check RND out here
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
3492
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 01:14:00 -
[41] - Quote
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:Ace Boone wrote:Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:All shields need are better inherent regen on the shield tanking suits (i.e. lower delays and higher recharge rates)
Minmitar suits should have lowest delays, but not as high shield HP or recharge rate as Caldari.
However, all min/cal suits (except for scouts) need better shield regen stats inherently. My min assaults regen is a bit disappointing unless I put on regulators. Armor reps through damage, and HP tanking is more effective because of that. If Shields repped through damage, they would be OP, but since armor does, it's the best imo. But I shield tank everything, so what am I saying. Exactly. People often forget that armor regen, especially on Gallente suits, is crazy good in combat. In the time it takes a scout to decloak, an 800 HP gal assault with full strafe speed and triple damage mods can recover 80+ armor with ease, even while being hit. 80 armor is about 2.5 bullets from most weapons on the battlefield. I also don't see how we regenerate 80 armor in the time it takes a scout to decloak. Getting 30hp/s is the absolute max you will see on a Gallente Assault, and that will usually limit you to 500-600 armor HP with speed penalties. 20hp/s and about 520 armor HP and 8m/s is what I usually run on my Gal Assaults. I can build a Cal Assault with 50hp/s, 600 shields, 8m/s sprint and 1-2 second delays. The only advantage my Gal Assault gets over the Cal Assault are the two damage mods. When it comes to pure tank, the Cal Assault is superior in most ways. Considering it takes 1 second for a scout to decloak and fire his gun... Its 4 seconds from the beginning of the decloak. A well fit Gal Assault will have 800 total HP, and ~23 reps per second (2 complex reppers)
preach
> Check RND out here
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
13454
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 01:16:00 -
[42] - Quote
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:Ace Boone wrote:Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:All shields need are better inherent regen on the shield tanking suits (i.e. lower delays and higher recharge rates)
Minmitar suits should have lowest delays, but not as high shield HP or recharge rate as Caldari.
However, all min/cal suits (except for scouts) need better shield regen stats inherently. My min assaults regen is a bit disappointing unless I put on regulators. Armor reps through damage, and HP tanking is more effective because of that. If Shields repped through damage, they would be OP, but since armor does, it's the best imo. But I shield tank everything, so what am I saying. Exactly. People often forget that armor regen, especially on Gallente suits, is crazy good in combat. In the time it takes a scout to decloak, an 800 HP gal assault with full strafe speed and triple damage mods can recover 80+ armor with ease, even while being hit. 80 armor is about 2.5 bullets from most weapons on the battlefield. I also don't see how we regenerate 80 armor in the time it takes a scout to decloak. Getting 30hp/s is the absolute max you will see on a Gallente Assault, and that will usually limit you to 500-600 armor HP with speed penalties. 20hp/s and about 520 armor HP and 8m/s is what I usually run on my Gal Assaults. I can build a Cal Assault with 50hp/s, 600 shields, 8m/s sprint and 1-2 second delays. The only advantage my Gal Assault gets over the Cal Assault are the two damage mods. When it comes to pure tank, the Cal Assault is superior in most ways. Considering it takes 1 second for a scout to decloak and fire his gun... Its 4 seconds from the beginning of the decloak. A well fit Gal Assault will have 800 total HP, and ~23 reps per second (2 complex reppers)
Since when is it 4 seconds?
Also, if it's 4 seconds, then my Cal Assault would already have 50HP regenerated, and given an extra second it would go up to 100HP, already catching up to the Gal Assault, and then surpassing it at the 3rd second.
Also, I believe the Gal Assault you are describing doesn't have a kin cat, correct?
If so my Cal Assault would also move about 1m/s faster.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
13454
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 01:17:00 -
[43] - Quote
http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/136/3719
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
3492
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 01:20:00 -
[44] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:Cat Merc wrote:[quote=Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p]
Considering it takes 1 second for a scout to decloak and fire his gun... Its 4 seconds from the beginning of the decloak. A well fit Gal Assault will have 800 total HP, and ~23 reps per second (2 complex reppers) Since when is it 4 seconds? Also, if it's 4 seconds, then my Cal Assault would already have 50HP regenerated, and given an extra second it would go up to 100HP, already catching up to the Gal Assault, and then surpassing it at the 3rd second. Also, I believe the Gal Assault you are describing doesn't have a kin cat, correct? If so my Cal Assault would also move about 1m/s faster.
How will that 1m/s help you in a 1v1 gun fight?
> Check RND out here
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
13454
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 01:22:00 -
[45] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:Cat Merc wrote:[quote=Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p]
Considering it takes 1 second for a scout to decloak and fire his gun... Its 4 seconds from the beginning of the decloak. A well fit Gal Assault will have 800 total HP, and ~23 reps per second (2 complex reppers) Since when is it 4 seconds? Also, if it's 4 seconds, then my Cal Assault would already have 50HP regenerated, and given an extra second it would go up to 100HP, already catching up to the Gal Assault, and then surpassing it at the 3rd second. Also, I believe the Gal Assault you are describing doesn't have a kin cat, correct? If so my Cal Assault would also move about 1m/s faster. How will that 1m/s help you in a 1v1 gun fight?
In many ways, be creative.
You have the mentality of a brick tanker, you can't see anything past DPS and HP.
There is a reason I fit kin cats on my Gal Assault, there is a reason I fit reactive/ferroscale plates instead of the heavy plates.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
2969
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 01:23:00 -
[46] - Quote
The cal assault has ok shield regen.
Try making a good min assault shield regen fit, compared to a gal assault.
"Minja" and "Masochist" are synonyms.
FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ
I piss Remote Explosives and shit Shotgun shells.
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
3492
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 01:24:00 -
[47] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:
You have the mentality of a brick tanker, you can't see anything past DPS and HP.
There is a reason I fit kin cats on my Gal Assault.
Your kin cats can't help you in a 1v1 gun fight. You must be thinking about survival and running for cover. And in that case, any suit can best any suit given the right situation. I'm talking about a gal and a cal assault suit 1v1.
Maybe if there was a bonus to strafe with kin cats but there isn't.
> Check RND out here
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
13454
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 01:25:00 -
[48] - Quote
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:The cal assault has ok shield regen. Try making a good min assault shield regen fit, compared to a gal assault.
The Min Assault is far faster, has ridiculously good stamina regen, and small built in bonuses like the Hacking speed bonus. (While small, it's still there)
They are incomparable, the Caldari Assault is a mirror image of the Gallente Assault, hence a better fit for comparison.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
13454
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 01:28:00 -
[49] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Cat Merc wrote:
You have the mentality of a brick tanker, you can't see anything past DPS and HP.
There is a reason I fit kin cats on my Gal Assault.
Your kin cats can't help you in a 1v1 gun fight. You must be thinking about survival and running for cover. And in that case, any suit can best any suit given the right situation. I'm talking about a gal and a cal assault suit 1v1. Maybe if there was a bonus to strafe with kin cats but there isn't.
Remember what I said about play style?
I put myself in advantageous situations, I don't straight up attack people I see.
I will make sure that you cannot win this fight, and speed helps me get to these advantageous situations.
HP helps me more when I'm attacked, speed helps me more when I'm attacking.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
15254
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Posted - 2014.12.01 01:32:00 -
[50] - Quote
You dun dimed these sceptical fellows Catmerc.
They mistake "potential to stack" for "effectiveness while".
Catmerc mentioned in passing a point that he has. EHP works when attacked, speed works when attacking. Amarr are naturally slow, this slow speed makes them poor reactionary suits.
Would I rather run 1-1.5 m/s faster or have an additional 400 EHP?
Answer is easily movement speed so I can kite out to range.
I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this.
Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
3492
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 01:32:00 -
[51] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Cat Merc wrote:
You have the mentality of a brick tanker, you can't see anything past DPS and HP.
There is a reason I fit kin cats on my Gal Assault.
Your kin cats can't help you in a 1v1 gun fight. You must be thinking about survival and running for cover. And in that case, any suit can best any suit given the right situation. I'm talking about a gal and a cal assault suit 1v1. Maybe if there was a bonus to strafe with kin cats but there isn't. Remember what I said about play style? I put myself in advantageous situations, I don't straight up attack people I see. I will make sure that you cannot win this fight, and speed helps me get to these advantageous situations. HP helps me more when I'm attacked, speed helps me more when I'm attacking.
Right and although some suits are better for that playstyle, any suit, regardless of fit, (besides heavies and logis) can pretty much play that sort of way.
One can see Cal Assaults, Min Assaults, Gal Assaults, and especially Amarr assaults play that sort of way.
My motivation is just bringing up advantages/disadvantages of shield vs armor tanking once engaged.
If you want to talk playstyle, then we can go there as well and determine which suit is best for that playstyle regardless of what else is opposing you on the battlefield.
> Check RND out here
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
3492
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 01:33:00 -
[52] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:You dun dimed these sceptical fellows Catmerc. They mistake "potential to stack" for "effectiveness while". Sure an Amarr Assault can reach 1200 EHP. Do I do that and is it Effective? No I don't I run two ferros, two reppers, and a kin cat. Speed and Regen are tops.
Well, I don't think that anyone plays with a maxed out Cal or Min assault suit either.
> Check RND out here
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
13455
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 01:34:00 -
[53] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
Our base regen is 30 and the more we use the more the delay for regen is penalized.
But it isn't about just the numbers on the suit. I'm talking about effectiveness. You can stack 4 ferroscales and a repper on a gal assault with a triage nanohive AND use damage mods without sacrificing the majority of where your health comes from. Plus, armor is the second line of defense, so you also have shield regen to help protect you as well.
30hp/s is exceptionally powerful, we need 3 module slots to get that.
You get an extra 20hp/s from one module, and have modules to cut that delay to 2-3 seconds.
That's not even mentioning Cal Scouts and their built in 50hp/s and low delays lol
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
13455
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 01:36:00 -
[54] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Cat Merc wrote:
You have the mentality of a brick tanker, you can't see anything past DPS and HP.
There is a reason I fit kin cats on my Gal Assault.
Your kin cats can't help you in a 1v1 gun fight. You must be thinking about survival and running for cover. And in that case, any suit can best any suit given the right situation. I'm talking about a gal and a cal assault suit 1v1. Maybe if there was a bonus to strafe with kin cats but there isn't. Remember what I said about play style? I put myself in advantageous situations, I don't straight up attack people I see. I will make sure that you cannot win this fight, and speed helps me get to these advantageous situations. HP helps me more when I'm attacked, speed helps me more when I'm attacking. Right and although some suits are better for that playstyle, any suit, regardless of fit, (besides heavies and logis) can pretty much play that sort of way. One can see Cal Assaults, Min Assaults, Gal Assaults, and especially Amarr assaults play that sort of way. My motivation is just bringing up advantages/disadvantages of shield vs armor tanking once engaged. If you want to talk playstyle, then we can go there as well and determine which suit is best for that playstyle regardless of what else is opposing you on the battlefield.
I'm saying that you use those two tanks differently.
You can't use a shield suit and an armor suit and expect to play them the same way.
And while true that all suits play the way I describe, my extra speed allows me to get the upper hand on most suits, and do it quicker than anyone else.
As a sidenote, that's why Scouts are so exceptionally powerful at being Assaults.
They have scans that allow them to figure out the best position to be in, and then they have the high base speed that allows them to get to that position quicker than other suits.
It's a powerful combo and you can see it being used to great effect on the battlefield.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
3492
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 01:37:00 -
[55] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
Our base regen is 30 and the more we use the more the delay for regen is penalized.
But it isn't about just the numbers on the suit. I'm talking about effectiveness. You can stack 4 ferroscales and a repper on a gal assault with a triage nanohive AND use damage mods without sacrificing the majority of where your health comes from. Plus, armor is the second line of defense, so you also have shield regen to help protect you as well.
30hp/s is exceptionally powerful, we need 3 module slots to get that. You get an extra 20hp/s from one module, and have modules to cut that delay to 2-3 seconds. That's not even mentioning Cal Scouts and their built in 50hp/s and low delays lol
:) everyone screams regen when it comes to shield dropsuits because that's the only advantage it seems to have. I've already named at least 2 or 3 advantages to armor tanking in this thread.
> Check RND out here
|
Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
3492
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 01:38:00 -
[56] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Cat Merc wrote:
You have the mentality of a brick tanker, you can't see anything past DPS and HP.
There is a reason I fit kin cats on my Gal Assault.
Your kin cats can't help you in a 1v1 gun fight. You must be thinking about survival and running for cover. And in that case, any suit can best any suit given the right situation. I'm talking about a gal and a cal assault suit 1v1. Maybe if there was a bonus to strafe with kin cats but there isn't. Remember what I said about play style? I put myself in advantageous situations, I don't straight up attack people I see. I will make sure that you cannot win this fight, and speed helps me get to these advantageous situations. HP helps me more when I'm attacked, speed helps me more when I'm attacking. Right and although some suits are better for that playstyle, any suit, regardless of fit, (besides heavies and logis) can pretty much play that sort of way. One can see Cal Assaults, Min Assaults, Gal Assaults, and especially Amarr assaults play that sort of way. My motivation is just bringing up advantages/disadvantages of shield vs armor tanking once engaged. If you want to talk playstyle, then we can go there as well and determine which suit is best for that playstyle regardless of what else is opposing you on the battlefield. I'm saying that you use those two tanks differently. You can't use a shield suit and an armor suit and expect to play them the same way. And while true that all suits play the way I describe, my extra speed allows me to get the upper hand on most suits, and do it quicker than anyone else. As a sidenote, that's why Scouts are so exceptionally powerful at being Assaults. They have scans that allow them to figure out the best position to be in, and then they have the high base speed that allows them to get to that position quicker than other suits. It's a powerful combo and you can see it being used to great effect on the battlefield.
think we keep circling around two different points.
> Check RND out here
|
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
13455
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 01:40:00 -
[57] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
Our base regen is 30 and the more we use the more the delay for regen is penalized.
But it isn't about just the numbers on the suit. I'm talking about effectiveness. You can stack 4 ferroscales and a repper on a gal assault with a triage nanohive AND use damage mods without sacrificing the majority of where your health comes from. Plus, armor is the second line of defense, so you also have shield regen to help protect you as well.
30hp/s is exceptionally powerful, we need 3 module slots to get that. You get an extra 20hp/s from one module, and have modules to cut that delay to 2-3 seconds. That's not even mentioning Cal Scouts and their built in 50hp/s and low delays lol :) everyone screams regen when it comes to shield dropsuits because that's the only advantage it seems to have. I've already named at least 2 or 3 advantages to armor tanking in this thread.
The straight up number of advantages means absolutely nothing.
What matters is the overall net power of all of those advantages combined.
I gave you two example fits that are my cookie cutter Assault fits, and both are equally viable, just played differently.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
|
Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
3493
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 01:42:00 -
[58] - Quote
Of course, you would use them differently. But when you're trying to grab objectives or defend them, you may find yourself in an engagement on the objective. Especially in an assault suit where you can't see everyone until they are right up on you.
> Check RND out here
|
True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
15255
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 01:42:00 -
[59] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:True Adamance wrote:You dun dimed these sceptical fellows Catmerc. They mistake "potential to stack" for "effectiveness while". Sure an Amarr Assault can reach 1200 EHP. Do I do that and is it Effective? No I don't I run two ferros, two reppers, and a kin cat. Speed and Regen are tops. Well, I don't think that anyone plays with a maxed out Cal or Min assault suit either.
Min Assault can cap out at 1014.3 EHP...not half bad and has significantly better regen and movement speed.
Currently my Assault has only around about 740 EHP, 20 Armour Reps per second, and 30 Shield reps per second, roughly a net gain of 12% additional light weapon damage, and moves at 8m/s.
I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this.
Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
|
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
13455
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 01:42:00 -
[60] - Quote
As a sidenote, the most common weapons on the battlefield, the CR and HMG, are both anti armor 
And before you say the BrAR, it's going to get nerfed, confirmed by Rattati.
So the battlefield will stay an anti armor ruled meta.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
|
|
|
Ghost Kaisar
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
8364
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 01:42:00 -
[61] - Quote
My take on this
Shields
Pro's:
First line of Defense. You can lose your main tank and survive.
Excellent Regen. Take damage? Just wait like 10 seconds. Most of your health should be back in 10-15s MAX unless you shitfit.
Explosive Resistance. Mass Drivers, Flaylocks, and Core Locus HURT unless you're in a shield suit.
Most weapons are anti-armor except for Plasma and Laser. Fear these.
High Slot Module. Kincats, Damps, Ferroscales OH MY. They don't even take away from your main tank... (That being said, you will be devoting low slots to regulators, don't go too low slot happy. We call those "Shitfits")
NO SPEED PENALTIES. Float like a butterfly, Sting like a bee. Get used to abusing your high mobility to hit a flank, and then run to the other side and hit the other flank with your fully regened health. These suits are a skirmishers wet dream.
Cons:
Shield delay/depleted. Get pinged 1s before regen starts? Too bad, start over. Lose all your shields? Guess what, you get to wait longer. You have to know how to maintain a shield tank to run them well. This means *GASP* USING COVER.
Fluxes will ruin your day. Seriously, these things are depressing. Total buzzkill.
CPU Intensive. Any decent shield fit will be running regulators/rechargers/energizers/extenders. Be prepared to pay for this with your CPU. A single proto Recharger/Energizer runs a good 100 CPU.
Lower HP when compared to Armor tanks. Yeah, best extender gives less health than a basic plate. Get over it. If it wasn't like this, shields would be OP AS HELL. Instead, be smart and learn how to shield tank scrub.
Armor
Pros:
CONSTANT REGEN. You never stop repping. This is fantastic if you know how to strafe in and out of cover. If you only take 1-2 shots each time you pop out, you can practically extend your eHP by about 50%. However, this takes DISCIPLINE.
Low Slot Module. Can someone say "Damage Mods?". Don't like damage mods? More HP is okay I guess...
External Rep. Yup, everyone loves to say how this isn't a pro. Tell that to them when they got a Core Focused on their ass. Shield tanking is great RIGHT? If you are a decent strafer, this can be borderline god mode. Thankfully, we have explosive weapons for people like you. There is no escape from the Boundless Assault Mass Driver (I actually say this as I spam AMD on my commando. Gleefullly, as I rack up the kills)
LOL Fluxes
TONS of health. You can get some INSANE armor values (Like a 700 armor shitfit gal scout). That being said, you also have to split your tank between regen and health, due to all armor modules being low slots. Pick wisely. A blend is preferred. Your overall eHP should still be a good 100-200 over most shield suits.
Cons:
Last line of defense. You can't lose your armor tank and walk away (99.99% of the time). Running armor tank takes some guts, as you HAVE to be able to kill the dude in front of you. Running away is never really an option.
Explosive weapons HURT. LIKE REALLY BAD. They kill your logi as well. Sad day all around.
PG Intensive. Yeah, hard to run lots of shields/damage mods when you have to devote PG to your Reps/Tank/ScR/AR.
Thankfully, the Gal and Amarr suits tend to have lots of PG, so that should help quite a bit. PG optimization is also a thing, and you should invest SP into it.
SPEED PENALTIES. You will not be an agile little butterfly unless you run Ferros and Kincats (WITH NO PLATES). Deal with it. If you strafed like crazy, you would be OP AS HELL. Jump height could use some love though. Watching Armor tankers try to jump over a curb can be hilarious, but they really should be able to clear it.
Tons of weapons are anti-armor. Rail and Projectile cover a LOT of weapons in this game. HMG's will eat you for breakfast, and Combat rifles will OM NOM NOM on your fat slow suit. Rail Rifles will happily chew you to bits with ease. This means that you really have to move cover to cover and take advantage of those constant reps. Best Armor tankers I see actually run a blend of speed/armor/regen and abuse cover.
While you may have tons of health YOU ARE NOT INVINCIBLE. Seriously, armor can make you feel tough at times due to the damage you can take, but aggro is merciless. You need to know how to push aggresively and safely. You are not impossible to take down. Respect your own HP pool and know if you can safely push up (Threatening the dude with Damage mods and pure HP) and when you need to fall back. Low health Armor tanks are easy kills. Remember, armor is your LAST LINE OF DEFENSE.
OVERALL
Shields are for fast regening skirmishers that favor a hit and run style of play
Armor is for "Stand and Deliver" players who like to hit hard and push agressively.
They may not be perfectly balanced at the moment, but they are the closest it has been in a VERY LONG TIME.
Only slight adjustments need to be made in my opinion.
To me: Shields are harder to use, but generally more rewarding. Armor is easy to use at times due to raw HP, but to make them truly shine, you need to play just as strategically as a shield tanker. It all comes down to preference in the end.
Bullet Hell and Duct-Tape? Count me in!
FA recruits get free officer BPO's. Enlist today. Must be a scrub to enter.
|
Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
3493
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 01:43:00 -
[62] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
Our base regen is 30 and the more we use the more the delay for regen is penalized.
But it isn't about just the numbers on the suit. I'm talking about effectiveness. You can stack 4 ferroscales and a repper on a gal assault with a triage nanohive AND use damage mods without sacrificing the majority of where your health comes from. Plus, armor is the second line of defense, so you also have shield regen to help protect you as well.
30hp/s is exceptionally powerful, we need 3 module slots to get that. You get an extra 20hp/s from one module, and have modules to cut that delay to 2-3 seconds. That's not even mentioning Cal Scouts and their built in 50hp/s and low delays lol :) everyone screams regen when it comes to shield dropsuits because that's the only advantage it seems to have. I've already named at least 2 or 3 advantages to armor tanking in this thread. The straight up number of advantages means absolutely nothing. What matters is the overall net power of all of those advantages combined. I gave you two example fits that are my cookie cutter Assault fits, and both are equally viable, just played differently.
Ok..so the shield regen tips the net power to shield suits?
> Check RND out here
|
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
13455
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 01:45:00 -
[63] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Of course, you would use them differently. But when you're trying to grab objectives or defend them, you may find yourself in an engagement on the objective. Especially in an assault suit where you can't see everyone until they are right up on you.
Oh then, I do wonder why I have this scanner on my Assault 
Besides, as I said you need to be creative when you are caught in a bad fight you aren't designed to fight.
Just as a single example of what I like to do, if I get caught within say, 4 meters of someone?
I sprint into them, get past them, then jump backwards.
This tends to confuse them, and give me enough time to deal the first deal of damage.
This really only works if your suit has a high speed.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
|
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
13455
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 01:45:00 -
[64] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
Our base regen is 30 and the more we use the more the delay for regen is penalized.
But it isn't about just the numbers on the suit. I'm talking about effectiveness. You can stack 4 ferroscales and a repper on a gal assault with a triage nanohive AND use damage mods without sacrificing the majority of where your health comes from. Plus, armor is the second line of defense, so you also have shield regen to help protect you as well.
30hp/s is exceptionally powerful, we need 3 module slots to get that. You get an extra 20hp/s from one module, and have modules to cut that delay to 2-3 seconds. That's not even mentioning Cal Scouts and their built in 50hp/s and low delays lol :) everyone screams regen when it comes to shield dropsuits because that's the only advantage it seems to have. I've already named at least 2 or 3 advantages to armor tanking in this thread. The straight up number of advantages means absolutely nothing. What matters is the overall net power of all of those advantages combined. I gave you two example fits that are my cookie cutter Assault fits, and both are equally viable, just played differently. Ok..so the shield regen tips the net power to shield suits?
Shield regen tips the net power to neither, they're equal in their own ways.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
|
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
13455
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 01:48:00 -
[65] - Quote
Ghost Kaisar wrote:My take on this
Shields
Pro's:
First line of Defense. You can lose your main tank and survive.
Excellent Regen. Take damage? Just wait like 10 seconds. Most of your health should be back in 10-15s MAX unless you shitfit.
Explosive Resistance. Mass Drivers, Flaylocks, and Core Locus HURT unless you're in a shield suit.
Most weapons are anti-armor except for Plasma and Laser. Fear these.
High Slot Module. Kincats, Damps, Ferroscales OH MY. They don't even take away from your main tank... (That being said, you will be devoting low slots to regulators, don't go too low slot happy. We call those "Shitfits")
NO SPEED PENALTIES. Float like a butterfly, Sting like a bee. Get used to abusing your high mobility to hit a flank, and then run to the other side and hit the other flank with your fully regened health. These suits are a skirmishers wet dream.
Cons:
Shield delay/depleted. Get pinged 1s before regen starts? Too bad, start over. Lose all your shields? Guess what, you get to wait longer. You have to know how to maintain a shield tank to run them well. This means *GASP* USING COVER.
Fluxes will ruin your day. Seriously, these things are depressing. Total buzzkill.
CPU Intensive. Any decent shield fit will be running regulators/rechargers/energizers/extenders. Be prepared to pay for this with your CPU. A single proto Recharger/Energizer runs a good 100 CPU.
Lower HP when compared to Armor tanks. Yeah, best extender gives less health than a basic plate. Get over it. If it wasn't like this, shields would be OP AS HELL. Instead, be smart and learn how to shield tank scrub.
Armor
Pros:
CONSTANT REGEN. You never stop repping. This is fantastic if you know how to strafe in and out of cover. If you only take 1-2 shots each time you pop out, you can practically extend your eHP by about 50%. However, this takes DISCIPLINE.
Low Slot Module. Can someone say "Damage Mods?". Don't like damage mods? More HP is okay I guess...
External Rep. Yup, everyone loves to say how this isn't a pro. Tell that to them when they got a Core Focused on their ass. Shield tanking is great RIGHT? If you are a decent strafer, this can be borderline god mode. Thankfully, we have explosive weapons for people like you. There is no escape from the Boundless Assault Mass Driver (I actually say this as I spam AMD on my commando. Gleefullly, as I rack up the kills)
LOL Fluxes
TONS of health. You can get some INSANE armor values (Like a 700 armor shitfit gal scout). That being said, you also have to split your tank between regen and health, due to all armor modules being low slots. Pick wisely. A blend is preferred. Your overall eHP should still be a good 100-200 over most shield suits.
Cons:
Last line of defense. You can't lose your armor tank and walk away (99.99% of the time). Running armor tank takes some guts, as you HAVE to be able to kill the dude in front of you. Running away is never really an option.
Explosive weapons HURT. LIKE REALLY BAD. They kill your logi as well. Sad day all around.
PG Intensive. Yeah, hard to run lots of shields/damage mods when you have to devote PG to your Reps/Tank/ScR/AR.
Thankfully, the Gal and Amarr suits tend to have lots of PG, so that should help quite a bit. PG optimization is also a thing, and you should invest SP into it.
SPEED PENALTIES. You will not be an agile little butterfly unless you run Ferros and Kincats (WITH NO PLATES). Deal with it. If you strafed like crazy, you would be OP AS HELL. Jump height could use some love though. Watching Armor tankers try to jump over a curb can be hilarious, but they really should be able to clear it.
Tons of weapons are anti-armor. Rail and Projectile cover a LOT of weapons in this game. HMG's will eat you for breakfast, and Combat rifles will OM NOM NOM on your fat slow suit. Rail Rifles will happily chew you to bits with ease. This means that you really have to move cover to cover and take advantage of those constant reps. Best Armor tankers I see actually run a blend of speed/armor/regen and abuse cover.
While you may have tons of health YOU ARE NOT INVINCIBLE. Seriously, armor can make you feel tough at times due to the damage you can take, but aggro is merciless. You need to know how to push aggresively and safely. You are not impossible to take down. Respect your own HP pool and know if you can safely push up (Threatening the dude with Damage mods and pure HP) and when you need to fall back. Low health Armor tanks are easy kills. Remember, armor is your LAST LINE OF DEFENSE.
OVERALL
Shields are for fast regening skirmishers that favor a hit and run style of play
Armor is for "Stand and Deliver" players who like to hit hard and push agressively.
They may not be perfectly balanced at the moment, but they are the closest it has been in a VERY LONG TIME.
Only slight adjustments need to be made in my opinion.
To me: Shields are harder to use, but generally more rewarding. Armor is easy to use at times due to raw HP, but to make them truly shine, you need to play just as strategically as a shield tanker. It all comes down to preference in the end.
I agree with the above analysis.
Armor is easier to use, but to be REALLY good at either you need an equal amount of skill at employing the strengths and mitigation of weaknesses.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
|
True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
15255
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 01:48:00 -
[66] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Of course, you would use them differently. But when you're trying to grab objectives or defend them, you may find yourself in an engagement on the objective. Especially in an assault suit where you can't see everyone until they are right up on you. Oh then, I do wonder why I have this scanner on my Assault Besides, as I said you need to be creative when you are caught in a bad fight you aren't designed to fight. Just as a single example of what I like to do, if I get caught within say, 4 meters of someone? I sprint into them, get past them, then jump backwards. This tends to confuse them, and give me enough time to deal the first deal of damage. This really only works if your suit has a high speed.
Just saw that I could fit a stable active scanner. DONE.
Force recon here I come at 8m/s!
I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this.
Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
|
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
13458
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 01:50:00 -
[67] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Of course, you would use them differently. But when you're trying to grab objectives or defend them, you may find yourself in an engagement on the objective. Especially in an assault suit where you can't see everyone until they are right up on you. Oh then, I do wonder why I have this scanner on my Assault Besides, as I said you need to be creative when you are caught in a bad fight you aren't designed to fight. Just as a single example of what I like to do, if I get caught within say, 4 meters of someone? I sprint into them, get past them, then jump backwards. This tends to confuse them, and give me enough time to deal the first deal of damage. This really only works if your suit has a high speed. Just saw that I could fit a stable active scanner. DONE. Force recon here I come at 8m/s!
Heh, the loyalty store Active Scanner is a lovely thing.
Keeps targets scanned for 10 seconds, and has a range of 125m!
Absolutely lovely :3
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
|
Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
3493
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 01:50:00 -
[68] - Quote
Ghost Kaisar wrote:My take on this
Shields
Pro's:
First line of Defense. You can lose your main tank and survive.
Excellent Regen. Take damage? Just wait like 10 seconds. Most of your health should be back in 10-15s MAX unless you shitfit.
Explosive Resistance. Mass Drivers, Flaylocks, and Core Locus HURT unless you're in a shield suit.
Most weapons are anti-armor except for Plasma and Laser. Fear these.
High Slot Module. Kincats, Damps, Ferroscales OH MY. They don't even take away from your main tank... (That being said, you will be devoting low slots to regulators, don't go too low slot happy. We call those "Shitfits")
NO SPEED PENALTIES. Float like a butterfly, Sting like a bee. Get used to abusing your high mobility to hit a flank, and then run to the other side and hit the other flank with your fully regened health. These suits are a skirmishers wet dream.
Cons:
Shield delay/depleted. Get pinged 1s before regen starts? Too bad, start over. Lose all your shields? Guess what, you get to wait longer. You have to know how to maintain a shield tank to run them well. This means *GASP* USING COVER.
Fluxes will ruin your day. Seriously, these things are depressing. Total buzzkill.
CPU Intensive. Any decent shield fit will be running regulators/rechargers/energizers/extenders. Be prepared to pay for this with your CPU. A single proto Recharger/Energizer runs a good 100 CPU.
Lower HP when compared to Armor tanks. Yeah, best extender gives less health than a basic plate. Get over it. If it wasn't like this, shields would be OP AS HELL. Instead, be smart and learn how to shield tank scrub.
Armor
Pros:
CONSTANT REGEN. You never stop repping. This is fantastic if you know how to strafe in and out of cover. If you only take 1-2 shots each time you pop out, you can practically extend your eHP by about 50%. However, this takes DISCIPLINE.
Low Slot Module. Can someone say "Damage Mods?". Don't like damage mods? More HP is okay I guess...
External Rep. Yup, everyone loves to say how this isn't a pro. Tell that to them when they got a Core Focused on their ass. Shield tanking is great RIGHT? If you are a decent strafer, this can be borderline god mode. Thankfully, we have explosive weapons for people like you. There is no escape from the Boundless Assault Mass Driver (I actually say this as I spam AMD on my commando. Gleefullly, as I rack up the kills)
LOL Fluxes
TONS of health. You can get some INSANE armor values (Like a 700 armor shitfit gal scout). That being said, you also have to split your tank between regen and health, due to all armor modules being low slots. Pick wisely. A blend is preferred. Your overall eHP should still be a good 100-200 over most shield suits.
Cons:
Last line of defense. You can't lose your armor tank and walk away (99.99% of the time). Running armor tank takes some guts, as you HAVE to be able to kill the dude in front of you. Running away is never really an option.
Explosive weapons HURT. LIKE REALLY BAD. They kill your logi as well. Sad day all around.
PG Intensive. Yeah, hard to run lots of shields/damage mods when you have to devote PG to your Reps/Tank/ScR/AR.
Thankfully, the Gal and Amarr suits tend to have lots of PG, so that should help quite a bit. PG optimization is also a thing, and you should invest SP into it.
SPEED PENALTIES. You will not be an agile little butterfly unless you run Ferros and Kincats (WITH NO PLATES). Deal with it. If you strafed like crazy, you would be OP AS HELL. Jump height could use some love though. Watching Armor tankers try to jump over a curb can be hilarious, but they really should be able to clear it.
Tons of weapons are anti-armor. Rail and Projectile cover a LOT of weapons in this game. HMG's will eat you for breakfast, and Combat rifles will OM NOM NOM on your fat slow suit. Rail Rifles will happily chew you to bits with ease. This means that you really have to move cover to cover and take advantage of those constant reps. Best Armor tankers I see actually run a blend of speed/armor/regen and abuse cover.
While you may have tons of health YOU ARE NOT INVINCIBLE. Seriously, armor can make you feel tough at times due to the damage you can take, but aggro is merciless. You need to know how to push aggresively and safely. You are not impossible to take down. Respect your own HP pool and know if you can safely push up (Threatening the dude with Damage mods and pure HP) and when you need to fall back. Low health Armor tanks are easy kills. Remember, armor is your LAST LINE OF DEFENSE.
OVERALL
Shields are for fast regening skirmishers that favor a hit and run style of play
Armor is for "Stand and Deliver" players who like to hit hard and push agressively.
They may not be perfectly balanced at the moment, but they are the closest it has been in a VERY LONG TIME.
Only slight adjustments need to be made in my opinion.
To me: Shields are harder to use, but generally more rewarding. Armor is easy to use at times due to raw HP, but to make them truly shine, you need to play just as strategically as a shield tanker. It all comes down to preference in the end.
most weapons are armor based or most used weapons are armor based?
Because the scr rifle, laser, assault, shotgun...all hurt like hell.
Not to mention, the one grenade that can ruin your life doesn't even have to hit you directly. You just have to be in the blast radius to lose it all.
> Check RND out here
|
True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
15255
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 01:52:00 -
[69] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:True Adamance wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Of course, you would use them differently. But when you're trying to grab objectives or defend them, you may find yourself in an engagement on the objective. Especially in an assault suit where you can't see everyone until they are right up on you. Oh then, I do wonder why I have this scanner on my Assault Besides, as I said you need to be creative when you are caught in a bad fight you aren't designed to fight. Just as a single example of what I like to do, if I get caught within say, 4 meters of someone? I sprint into them, get past them, then jump backwards. This tends to confuse them, and give me enough time to deal the first deal of damage. This really only works if your suit has a high speed. Just saw that I could fit a stable active scanner. DONE. Force recon here I come at 8m/s! Heh, the loyalty store Active Scanner is a lovely thing. Keeps targets scanned for 10 seconds, and has a range of 125m! Absolutely lovely :3
Hell the Creodron Flux Active Scanner is only 9 PG........ 28db scans for 8 sec and 90 degrees for 200m...... no way I can turn that down.
On the subject of HAV if I had another player with a maxed out Maddy I'd organise to do some testing of straight up Blaster brawls to determine who is kind brawler.
I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this.
Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
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Meeko Fent
Kirkinen Risk Control
Caldari State
2163
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 01:55:00 -
[70] - Quote
The issue with Shields is that I sacrifice a great deal to capitalize on my strength (regen)
I have to sacrifice all my major armor buffer to get a very good Regen.
Armor suits have more versatility in that they already have their buffer built in to how their suit is designed to play. I could slap MORE buffer, in the way of shields, or I can add damage, or add melee, or add the other high mods.
To do the same, I have to rely on my shields, which then regen too slowly to be able to rapidly reengage following a fight. I clear a area out of guys, wait for shields to recharge before rushing the last bit of terrain, and they've already spawned back.
That, and, 1 v 1, a pure armor suit will likely win every time. They have more buffer compared to pure shield, and they have the added damage from the free highs.
Nothing in the lows really provide an incentive to fit shield suits for hit and run, besides just running. And then, I lose a good deal for having longer recharge delays for that speed.
Balancing PURE shields and PURE armor will be VERY hard. Both bricked? And their pretty equal.
Its just PURELY, armor is inherently better.
I Live for Tears
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
3493
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 01:59:00 -
[71] - Quote
I mean, how is a cal heavy supposed to compete
> Check RND out here
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
3493
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 02:01:00 -
[72] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Cat Merc wrote:True Adamance wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Of course, you would use them differently. But when you're trying to grab objectives or defend them, you may find yourself in an engagement on the objective. Especially in an assault suit where you can't see everyone until they are right up on you. Oh then, I do wonder why I have this scanner on my Assault Besides, as I said you need to be creative when you are caught in a bad fight you aren't designed to fight. Just as a single example of what I like to do, if I get caught within say, 4 meters of someone? I sprint into them, get past them, then jump backwards. This tends to confuse them, and give me enough time to deal the first deal of damage. This really only works if your suit has a high speed. Just saw that I could fit a stable active scanner. DONE. Force recon here I come at 8m/s! Heh, the loyalty store Active Scanner is a lovely thing. Keeps targets scanned for 10 seconds, and has a range of 125m! Absolutely lovely :3 Hell the Creodron Flux Active Scanner is only 9 PG........ 28db scans for 8 sec and 90 degrees for 200m...... no way I can turn that down. On the subject of HAV if I had another player with a maxed out Maddy I'd organise to do some testing of straight up Blaster brawls to determine who is kind brawler.
question....can you fit dual dmg mods on a maddy?
> Check RND out here
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gustavo acosta
Capital Acquisitions LLC
General Tso's Alliance
551
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 02:02:00 -
[73] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:I mean, how is a cal heavy supposed to survive
By shield tanking properly and attacking in bursts when its health comes back from the great regen proper shield suits have...
GimmeDatSuhWeet isk
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Ghost Kaisar
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
8365
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 02:02:00 -
[74] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:
Min Assault can cap out at 1014.3 EHP...not half bad and has significantly better regen and movement speed.
Caps out at much higher, but its pretty much a shitfit past around 900 HP.
ADVANCE NOTE. All suits were fitted with a Proto CR and Proto Flaylock to boot. Gotta be combat effective when designing a suit.
Moving on. Max HP I could get while maintaining some level of intelligence was 1021.4 HP.
4x Shields, 2x Ferro, 1x React, 1x Rep. Dual Tanking sin right here. 14hp/s is not enough for its armor pool, and it has 6/10 second depleted/delay with base regen. Shitfit, I could take it down with a decent fit assault, shield or armor. Abuse some cover and watch his buffer go to bits, as he has no decent regen to back it up. Yes, it may have better speed, but dear god is its regen horrific. Hell, I can easily run 1000+ HP on an Amarr assault and still run 20+ hp/s armor rep.
Best Armor fit for a Min Assault (IMO) caps out at around 907 HP. It runs 2x ADV Shields, 2x Damage Mods, 2x Complex Plates, 2x Repair. It has 535 armor with 21 hp/s rep, with a decent shield buffer. Still sprints at around 7m/s. I love this suit for CQC maps, the constant regen really helps.
Best Shield Fit for a Min Assault (IMO) Caps out at around 702 HP. It runs 3x shields, 1x Energizer, 3x Regulators, 1x Kincat. Thing has 1.92/3.13 for its delay/deplete, along with 43 hp/s regen. Speed helps a lot.
My personal Min Assault runs a Hybrid tank, and is the best way to run it IMO. It runs 3x Shields, 1x Recharger, 1x Energizer, 1x Repair, 1x Ferroscale, 1x Kincat.
Runs at 800 HP, with decent shield and armor regen, while maintaining it's high speed. An excellent skirmishing fit.
Bullet Hell and Duct-Tape? Count me in!
FA recruits get free officer BPO's. Enlist today. Must be a scrub to enter.
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
13458
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Posted - 2014.12.01 02:03:00 -
[75] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:I mean, how is a cal heavy supposed to survive
Cal heavies are the red headed step children.
Sentinels have no reason to do anything but brick HP, and that's where armor excels.
They need their own treatment, and it doesn't mean that armor on all classes is better.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
13458
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Posted - 2014.12.01 02:04:00 -
[76] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:I mean, how is a cal heavy supposed to survive By shield tanking properly and attacking in bursts when its health comes back from the great regen proper shield suits have...
Sadly that would be a no.
Since the Cal Heavy is so slow, and anybody who isn't a dumb blueberry knows that you can never leave them alone to regenerate, people are highly aggressive against them.
This extreme aggressiveness doesn't mix well with a slow suit that has regen delay.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
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Ghost Kaisar
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
8365
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 02:07:00 -
[77] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Ghost Kaisar wrote:My take on this
Big Ass wall of text most weapons are armor based or most used weapons are armor based? Because the scr rifle, laser, assault, shotgun...all hurt like hell. Not to mention, the one grenade that can ruin your life doesn't even have to hit you directly. You just have to be in the blast radius to lose it all.
It is far more common to see anti-armor weapons on the battlefield. SMG, RR, CR, HMG, BP, Flaylock, and Mass driver are all anti-armor. All shields have going against them are ScR, IP, ScP, Shotgun, AR.
Plasma Cannon and Sniper Rifles not mentioned because of sheer rarity. Heck, I was hesitant to even put the Ion Pistol on there.
Yes, the anti-shield weapons hurt like hell. As they should. Shotguns get no special treatment, alpha is so high they wreck armor suits as well (Outside of heavies).
Yes. Fluxes suck. A lot. Could be tweaked, but I personally find it to be a balance point, considering as they have no killing ability whatsoever.
After reading some of these responses, I think we should just get all of us arguing together in a squad and play some matches while playing our fits. Would be fun.
Bullet Hell and Duct-Tape? Count me in!
FA recruits get free officer BPO's. Enlist today. Must be a scrub to enter.
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
13458
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 02:11:00 -
[78] - Quote
Ghost Kaisar wrote:
After reading some of these responses, I think we should just get all of us arguing together in a squad and play some matches while playing our fits. Would be fun.
I agree with such and such.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
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hfderrtgvcd
1396
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 02:11:00 -
[79] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:I mean, how is a cal heavy supposed to compete
cal heavies are beast. The hmg does -15% damage to shields.
You can't fight in here! This is the war room.
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Blueprint For Murder
Storm Wind Strikeforce
Caldari State
412
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 02:13:00 -
[80] - Quote
You do not have to choose one or the other lol you charge shields for uptime and you put ferro or rep plates for ehp or if you must like on a ck suit you put some extenders.
When it comes to tanks and ads shields are far better you have way more mobility and the counter to shield vehicles if it can be called that is a plc which is even more limited in its application than the other AV weapons. To the opposing point though shields do get a very minor bonus against the CR and RRs absolute positive profiles which makes a huge difference in the unbalanced environment we have the CR has no balance factors and the strongest profile the RR has ineffectual balance mechanics and the second best profile.
21 day fast 11/28/14 Life-$
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Meeko Fent
Kirkinen Risk Control
Caldari State
2165
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Posted - 2014.12.01 02:14:00 -
[81] - Quote
Ghost Kaisar wrote:
After reading some of these responses, I think we should just get all of us arguing together in a squad and play some matches while playing our fits. Would be fun.
I do that every time I play man...
I Live for Tears
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
15255
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 02:14:00 -
[82] - Quote
Meeko Fent wrote:The issue with Shields is that I sacrifice a great deal to capitalize on my strength (regen)
I have to sacrifice all my major armor buffer to get a very good Regen.
Armor suits have more versatility in that they already have their buffer built in to how their suit is designed to play. I could slap MORE buffer, in the way of shields, or I can add damage, or add melee, or add the other high mods.
To do the same, I have to rely on my shields, which then regen too slowly to be able to rapidly reengage following a fight. I clear a area out of guys, wait for shields to recharge before rushing the last bit of terrain, and they've already spawned back.
That, and, 1 v 1, a pure armor suit will likely win every time. They have more buffer compared to pure shield, and they have the added damage from the free highs.
Nothing in the lows really provide an incentive to fit shield suits for hit and run, besides just running. And then, I lose a good deal for having longer recharge delays for that speed.
Balancing PURE shields and PURE armor will be VERY hard. Both bricked? And their pretty equal.
Its just PURELY, armor is inherently better.
You shouldn't be armour tanking on a shield suit anyway.
The one thing I feel Shield tankers forget is the utility of Shields. Firstly no mobility penalties for respectable EHP values, you won't hit 1000 EHP but you will easily get around 700-800, respectable regenerative capacity, and access to utility modules from fitting enhancer, biotic enhancers, hacking modules, scanning modules.
That is versatility.
I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this.
Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
15255
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 02:16:00 -
[83] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
question....can you fit dual dmg mods on a maddy?
Let me have a looksie.
Answer is most likely yes......but at great cost.
@ Ghost- Do it your heathen dog! I'd love to argue shield vs Armour, Amarr vs Minmatar semantics...but prepare for me to giggle every time I talk about crusading for stuff, God, and slavery.
IRL I sometimes cannot take it all seriously.
I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this.
Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
|
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
2969
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 02:18:00 -
[84] - Quote
Ghost Kaisar wrote:True Adamance wrote:
Min Assault can cap out at 1014.3 EHP...not half bad and has significantly better regen and movement speed.
Caps out at much higher, but its pretty much a shitfit past around 900 HP. ADVANCE NOTE. All suits were fitted with a Proto CR and Proto Flaylock to boot. Gotta be combat effective when designing a suit. Moving on. Max HP I could get while maintaining some level of intelligence was 1021.4 HP. 4x Shields, 2x Ferro, 1x React, 1x Rep. Dual Tanking sin right here. 14hp/s is not enough for its armor pool, and it has 6/10 second depleted/delay with base regen. Shitfit, I could take it down with a decent fit assault, shield or armor. Abuse some cover and watch his buffer go to bits, as he has no decent regen to back it up. Yes, it may have better speed, but dear god is its regen horrific. Hell, I can easily run 1000+ HP on an Amarr assault and still run 20+ hp/s armor rep.
Best Armor fit for a Min Assault (IMO) caps out at around 907 HP. It runs 2x ADV Shields, 2x Damage Mods, 2x Complex Plates, 2x Repair. It has 535 armor with 21 hp/s rep, with a decent shield buffer. Still sprints at around 7m/s. I love this suit for CQC maps, the constant regen really helps. Best Shield Fit for a Min Assault (IMO) Caps out at around 702 HP. It runs 3x shields, 1x Energizer, 3x Regulators, 1x Kincat. Thing has 1.92/3.13 for its delay/deplete, along with 43 hp/s regen. Speed helps a lot. My personal Min Assault runs a Hybrid tank, and is the best way to run it IMO. It runs 3x Shields, 1x Recharger, 1x Energizer, 1x Repair, 1x Ferroscale, 1x Kincat. Runs at 800 HP, with decent shield and armor regen, while maintaining it's high speed. An excellent skirmishing fit.
As much as I love you, Kaisar, your fits sicken me.
Min assault-4 complex shields, 2 complex damps, and either a rep per + kin cat, or 2 kin cats.
Boundless CR and Six Kin SMG with a flux grenade for pesky cal scounts.
"Minja" and "Masochist" are synonyms.
FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ
I piss Remote Explosives and shit Shotgun shells.
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Fizzer XCIV
Heaven's Lost Property
Negative-Feedback
1256
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 02:19:00 -
[85] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:most weapons are armor based or most used weapons are armor based?
Because the scr rifle, laser, assault, shotgun...all hurt like hell.
Not to mention, the one grenade that can ruin your life doesn't even have to hit you directly. You just have to be in the blast radius to lose it all.
Most weapons are armor based.
There are a total of 7 guns that do extra damage to shields, and the flux grenade.
There are 10 guns that are armor based, and Locus Grenades. Minus the Swarm, because it only works on vehicles.
And while REs are technically armor based, I won't count these on either side since they are almost always a OHK.
And up until the recent Breach AR buff, and RR nerf, a vast majority of used weapons were armor based. Did you see how much the RR was used before it got nerfed? Rattati showed us a chart, and about 40% of the total rifle kills were from the RR alone. The CR took 2nd place.
The ScR is still the least used rifle type, and the laser hasn't really been used much at all since Chromosome. Sure, they wreck shields, but a Mass Driver or Combat Rifle will wreck my armor just as much, and they are far more common.
You do have a point with the shotgun. But I contribute the massive overuse of shotguns to scouts still over performing.
Please, make my Opus pretty...
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
15255
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 02:21:00 -
[86] - Quote
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:Ghost Kaisar wrote:True Adamance wrote:
Min Assault can cap out at 1014.3 EHP...not half bad and has significantly better regen and movement speed.
Caps out at much higher, but its pretty much a shitfit past around 900 HP. ADVANCE NOTE. All suits were fitted with a Proto CR and Proto Flaylock to boot. Gotta be combat effective when designing a suit. Moving on. Max HP I could get while maintaining some level of intelligence was 1021.4 HP. 4x Shields, 2x Ferro, 1x React, 1x Rep. Dual Tanking sin right here. 14hp/s is not enough for its armor pool, and it has 6/10 second depleted/delay with base regen. Shitfit, I could take it down with a decent fit assault, shield or armor. Abuse some cover and watch his buffer go to bits, as he has no decent regen to back it up. Yes, it may have better speed, but dear god is its regen horrific. Hell, I can easily run 1000+ HP on an Amarr assault and still run 20+ hp/s armor rep.
Best Armor fit for a Min Assault (IMO) caps out at around 907 HP. It runs 2x ADV Shields, 2x Damage Mods, 2x Complex Plates, 2x Repair. It has 535 armor with 21 hp/s rep, with a decent shield buffer. Still sprints at around 7m/s. I love this suit for CQC maps, the constant regen really helps. Best Shield Fit for a Min Assault (IMO) Caps out at around 702 HP. It runs 3x shields, 1x Energizer, 3x Regulators, 1x Kincat. Thing has 1.92/3.13 for its delay/deplete, along with 43 hp/s regen. Speed helps a lot. My personal Min Assault runs a Hybrid tank, and is the best way to run it IMO. It runs 3x Shields, 1x Recharger, 1x Energizer, 1x Repair, 1x Ferroscale, 1x Kincat. Runs at 800 HP, with decent shield and armor regen, while maintaining it's high speed. An excellent skirmishing fit. As much as I love you, Kaisar, your fits sicken me. Min assault-4 complex shields, 2 complex damps, and either a rep per + kin cat, or 2 kin cats. Boundless CR and Six Kin SMG with a flux grenade for pesky cal scounts.
Were not talking viable we're simply talking total EHP. A 1200 EHP Amarr Assault is not worth running unless you have a logi at your back a which point you might as well use a Sentinel and get even great EHP.
RE: Saxonmish Amarr Assault 1200 EHP 64/1 fight to be fair he had an entire squad of Logi constantly repping and protecting him.
I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this.
Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
|
Meeko Fent
Kirkinen Risk Control
Caldari State
2165
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 02:27:00 -
[87] - Quote
hfderrtgvcd wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:I mean, how is a cal heavy supposed to compete cal heavies are beast. The hmg does -15% damage to shields.
Ermmm...
Why does that matter?
Unless your shooting yourself, that is a useless point. ScR and Flux nades whoop CalSent ass.
I Live for Tears
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
13458
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 02:27:00 -
[88] - Quote
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:Ghost Kaisar wrote:True Adamance wrote:
Min Assault can cap out at 1014.3 EHP...not half bad and has significantly better regen and movement speed.
Caps out at much higher, but its pretty much a shitfit past around 900 HP. ADVANCE NOTE. All suits were fitted with a Proto CR and Proto Flaylock to boot. Gotta be combat effective when designing a suit. Moving on. Max HP I could get while maintaining some level of intelligence was 1021.4 HP. 4x Shields, 2x Ferro, 1x React, 1x Rep. Dual Tanking sin right here. 14hp/s is not enough for its armor pool, and it has 6/10 second depleted/delay with base regen. Shitfit, I could take it down with a decent fit assault, shield or armor. Abuse some cover and watch his buffer go to bits, as he has no decent regen to back it up. Yes, it may have better speed, but dear god is its regen horrific. Hell, I can easily run 1000+ HP on an Amarr assault and still run 20+ hp/s armor rep.
Best Armor fit for a Min Assault (IMO) caps out at around 907 HP. It runs 2x ADV Shields, 2x Damage Mods, 2x Complex Plates, 2x Repair. It has 535 armor with 21 hp/s rep, with a decent shield buffer. Still sprints at around 7m/s. I love this suit for CQC maps, the constant regen really helps. Best Shield Fit for a Min Assault (IMO) Caps out at around 702 HP. It runs 3x shields, 1x Energizer, 3x Regulators, 1x Kincat. Thing has 1.92/3.13 for its delay/deplete, along with 43 hp/s regen. Speed helps a lot. My personal Min Assault runs a Hybrid tank, and is the best way to run it IMO. It runs 3x Shields, 1x Recharger, 1x Energizer, 1x Repair, 1x Ferroscale, 1x Kincat. Runs at 800 HP, with decent shield and armor regen, while maintaining it's high speed. An excellent skirmishing fit. As much as I love you, Kaisar, your fits sicken me. Min assault-4 complex shields, 2 complex damps, and either a rep per + kin cat, or 2 kin cats. Boundless CR and Six Kin SMG with a flux grenade for pesky cal scounts. If you strafe hard enough and run, the repping doesn't matter cause nothing hits you. Also, pack remotes for the heavies.
Glory to not having cookie cutter fits!
Where people can customize their fit according to their tastes and they will be viable!
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
13458
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 02:29:00 -
[89] - Quote
Meeko Fent wrote:hfderrtgvcd wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:I mean, how is a cal heavy supposed to compete cal heavies are beast. The hmg does -15% damage to shields. Ermmm... Why does that matter? Unless your shooting yourself, that is a useless point. ScR and Flux nades whoop CalSent ass.
He means that this makes Cal Sentinels excellent sentinel busters.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
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Ghost Kaisar
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
8375
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 02:30:00 -
[90] - Quote
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:Ghost Kaisar wrote:True Adamance wrote:
Min Assault can cap out at 1014.3 EHP...not half bad and has significantly better regen and movement speed.
Caps out at much higher, but its pretty much a shitfit past around 900 HP. ADVANCE NOTE. All suits were fitted with a Proto CR and Proto Flaylock to boot. Gotta be combat effective when designing a suit. Moving on. Max HP I could get while maintaining some level of intelligence was 1021.4 HP. 4x Shields, 2x Ferro, 1x React, 1x Rep. Dual Tanking sin right here. 14hp/s is not enough for its armor pool, and it has 6/10 second depleted/delay with base regen. Shitfit, I could take it down with a decent fit assault, shield or armor. Abuse some cover and watch his buffer go to bits, as he has no decent regen to back it up. Yes, it may have better speed, but dear god is its regen horrific. Hell, I can easily run 1000+ HP on an Amarr assault and still run 20+ hp/s armor rep.
Best Armor fit for a Min Assault (IMO) caps out at around 907 HP. It runs 2x ADV Shields, 2x Damage Mods, 2x Complex Plates, 2x Repair. It has 535 armor with 21 hp/s rep, with a decent shield buffer. Still sprints at around 7m/s. I love this suit for CQC maps, the constant regen really helps. Best Shield Fit for a Min Assault (IMO) Caps out at around 702 HP. It runs 3x shields, 1x Energizer, 3x Regulators, 1x Kincat. Thing has 1.92/3.13 for its delay/deplete, along with 43 hp/s regen. Speed helps a lot. My personal Min Assault runs a Hybrid tank, and is the best way to run it IMO. It runs 3x Shields, 1x Recharger, 1x Energizer, 1x Repair, 1x Ferroscale, 1x Kincat. Runs at 800 HP, with decent shield and armor regen, while maintaining it's high speed. An excellent skirmishing fit. As much as I love you, Kaisar, your fits sicken me. Min assault-4 complex shields, 2 complex damps, and either a rep per + kin cat, or 2 kin cats. Boundless CR and Six Kin SMG with a flux grenade for pesky cal scounts. If you strafe hard enough and run, the repping doesn't matter cause nothing hits you. Also, pack remotes for the heavies.
Not everyone lags as hard as you do Gav
Bullet Hell and Duct-Tape? Count me in!
FA recruits get free officer BPO's. Enlist today. Must be a scrub to enter.
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|
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
2969
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 02:32:00 -
[91] - Quote
Ghost Kaisar wrote:Not everyone lags as hard as you do Gav
1v1 me bruh!!!!!11!!!!one!!!
LOL 
"Minja" and "Masochist" are synonyms.
FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ
I piss Remote Explosives and shit Shotgun shells.
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Ghost Kaisar
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
8375
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 02:33:00 -
[92] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
question....can you fit dual dmg mods on a maddy?
No not even with a Complex CPU Extender and a Basic Turret. Unless you want to sacrifice your entire armour tank capacity. @ Ghost- Do it your heathen dog! I'd love to argue shield vs Armour, Amarr vs Minmatar semantics...but prepare for me to giggle every time I talk about crusading for stuff, God, and slavery. IRL I sometimes cannot take it all seriously.
Who else should we invite to the Armor vs Shield Dream Team?
>Cat Merc
>Ghost Kaisar
>True Adamance
We have 3 slots open people. Jump on it.
Bullet Hell and Duct-Tape? Count me in!
FA recruits get free officer BPO's. Enlist today. Must be a scrub to enter.
|
Meeko Fent
Kirkinen Risk Control
Caldari State
2165
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 02:34:00 -
[93] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:hfderrtgvcd wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:I mean, how is a cal heavy supposed to compete cal heavies are beast. The hmg does -15% damage to shields. Ermmm... Why does that matter? Unless your shooting yourself, that is a useless point. ScR and Flux nades whoop CalSent ass. He means that this makes Cal Sentinels excellent sentinel busters.
Da.
Then that raises the question....
WHY ARENT YOU PLAY A SENTINEL AS A SENTINEL?
/smirk
I Live for Tears
|
Ghost Kaisar
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
8375
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 02:34:00 -
[94] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:The issue with Shields is that I sacrifice a great deal to capitalize on my strength (regen)
I have to sacrifice all my major armor buffer to get a very good Regen.
Armor suits have more versatility in that they already have their buffer built in to how their suit is designed to play. I could slap MORE buffer, in the way of shields, or I can add damage, or add melee, or add the other high mods.
To do the same, I have to rely on my shields, which then regen too slowly to be able to rapidly reengage following a fight. I clear a area out of guys, wait for shields to recharge before rushing the last bit of terrain, and they've already spawned back.
That, and, 1 v 1, a pure armor suit will likely win every time. They have more buffer compared to pure shield, and they have the added damage from the free highs.
Nothing in the lows really provide an incentive to fit shield suits for hit and run, besides just running. And then, I lose a good deal for having longer recharge delays for that speed.
Balancing PURE shields and PURE armor will be VERY hard. Both bricked? And their pretty equal.
Its just PURELY, armor is inherently better. You shouldn't be armour tanking on a shield suit anyway. The one thing I feel Shield tankers forget is the utility of Shields. Firstly no mobility penalties for respectable EHP values, you won't hit 1000 EHP but you will easily get around 700-800, respectable regenerative capacity, and access to utility modules from fitting enhancer, biotic enhancers, hacking modules, scanning modules. That is versatility.
Min Assault is possibly the best assault in the game because of this.
It has a fantastic slot layout and its base speed/stamina regen works wonders. It is unbelievably flexible, running deadly shield and armor fits.
Heck, I say that for most Minmatar suits. Outside of the scout and Logi, every suit can either be shield, or armor tanked. Its half the reason why I love all their suits.
Bullet Hell and Duct-Tape? Count me in!
FA recruits get free officer BPO's. Enlist today. Must be a scrub to enter.
|
Meeko Fent
Kirkinen Risk Control
Caldari State
2165
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 02:35:00 -
[95] - Quote
Ghost Kaisar wrote:True Adamance wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
question....can you fit dual dmg mods on a maddy?
No not even with a Complex CPU Extender and a Basic Turret. Unless you want to sacrifice your entire armour tank capacity. @ Ghost- Do it your heathen dog! I'd love to argue shield vs Armour, Amarr vs Minmatar semantics...but prepare for me to giggle every time I talk about crusading for stuff, God, and slavery. IRL I sometimes cannot take it all seriously. Who else should we invite to the Armor vs Shield Dream Team? >Cat Merc >Ghost Kaisar >True Adamance We have 3 slots open people. Jump on it.
I would say me, but I dont quite know the TZ thats on.
And, I may be on and off randomly. I haz life.
I Live for Tears
|
Ghost Kaisar
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
8375
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 02:36:00 -
[96] - Quote
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:Ghost Kaisar wrote:Not everyone lags as hard as you do Gav 1v1 me bruh!!!!!11!!!!one!!! LOL
BRB Grabbing my Intervention
Bullet Hell and Duct-Tape? Count me in!
FA recruits get free officer BPO's. Enlist today. Must be a scrub to enter.
|
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
2969
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 02:36:00 -
[97] - Quote
Ghost Kaisar wrote:True Adamance wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
question....can you fit dual dmg mods on a maddy?
No not even with a Complex CPU Extender and a Basic Turret. Unless you want to sacrifice your entire armour tank capacity. @ Ghost- Do it your heathen dog! I'd love to argue shield vs Armour, Amarr vs Minmatar semantics...but prepare for me to giggle every time I talk about crusading for stuff, God, and slavery. IRL I sometimes cannot take it all seriously. Who else should we invite to the Armor vs Shield Dream Team? >Cat Merc >Ghost Kaisar >True Adamance We have 3 slots open people. Jump on it.
ME
"Minja" and "Masochist" are synonyms.
FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ
I piss Remote Explosives and shit Shotgun shells.
|
Ghost Kaisar
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
8375
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 02:37:00 -
[98] - Quote
Meeko Fent wrote:Ghost Kaisar wrote:True Adamance wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
question....can you fit dual dmg mods on a maddy?
No not even with a Complex CPU Extender and a Basic Turret. Unless you want to sacrifice your entire armour tank capacity. @ Ghost- Do it your heathen dog! I'd love to argue shield vs Armour, Amarr vs Minmatar semantics...but prepare for me to giggle every time I talk about crusading for stuff, God, and slavery. IRL I sometimes cannot take it all seriously. Who else should we invite to the Armor vs Shield Dream Team? >Cat Merc >Ghost Kaisar >True Adamance We have 3 slots open people. Jump on it. I would say me, but I dont quite know the TZ thats on. And, I may be on and off randomly. I haz life.
I'll just make a custom chat group and invite you all with mails.
Hop on together whenever we notice that a few of us are on.
Bullet Hell and Duct-Tape? Count me in!
FA recruits get free officer BPO's. Enlist today. Must be a scrub to enter.
|
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
13460
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 02:37:00 -
[99] - Quote
Ghost Kaisar wrote:Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:Ghost Kaisar wrote:Not everyone lags as hard as you do Gav 1v1 me bruh!!!!!11!!!!one!!! LOL BRB Grabbing my Intervention
BRB Grabbing my AWP
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
|
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
2969
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 02:38:00 -
[100] - Quote
Ghost Kaisar wrote:Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:Ghost Kaisar wrote:Not everyone lags as hard as you do Gav 1v1 me bruh!!!!!11!!!!one!!! LOL BRB Grabbing my Intervention
This time you can't blame it on lag
"Minja" and "Masochist" are synonyms.
FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ
I piss Remote Explosives and shit Shotgun shells.
|
|
|
Meeko Fent
Kirkinen Risk Control
Caldari State
2165
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 02:38:00 -
[101] - Quote
Ghost Kaisar wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:Ghost Kaisar wrote:True Adamance wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
question....can you fit dual dmg mods on a maddy?
No not even with a Complex CPU Extender and a Basic Turret. Unless you want to sacrifice your entire armour tank capacity. @ Ghost- Do it your heathen dog! I'd love to argue shield vs Armour, Amarr vs Minmatar semantics...but prepare for me to giggle every time I talk about crusading for stuff, God, and slavery. IRL I sometimes cannot take it all seriously. Who else should we invite to the Armor vs Shield Dream Team? >Cat Merc >Ghost Kaisar >True Adamance We have 3 slots open people. Jump on it. I would say me, but I dont quite know the TZ thats on. And, I may be on and off randomly. I haz life. I'll just make a custom chat group and invite you all with mails. Hop on together whenever we notice that a few of us are on.
Nice.
I Live for Tears
|
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
13462
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 02:39:00 -
[102] - Quote
Ghost Kaisar wrote:True Adamance wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:The issue with Shields is that I sacrifice a great deal to capitalize on my strength (regen)
I have to sacrifice all my major armor buffer to get a very good Regen.
Armor suits have more versatility in that they already have their buffer built in to how their suit is designed to play. I could slap MORE buffer, in the way of shields, or I can add damage, or add melee, or add the other high mods.
To do the same, I have to rely on my shields, which then regen too slowly to be able to rapidly reengage following a fight. I clear a area out of guys, wait for shields to recharge before rushing the last bit of terrain, and they've already spawned back.
That, and, 1 v 1, a pure armor suit will likely win every time. They have more buffer compared to pure shield, and they have the added damage from the free highs.
Nothing in the lows really provide an incentive to fit shield suits for hit and run, besides just running. And then, I lose a good deal for having longer recharge delays for that speed.
Balancing PURE shields and PURE armor will be VERY hard. Both bricked? And their pretty equal.
Its just PURELY, armor is inherently better. You shouldn't be armour tanking on a shield suit anyway. The one thing I feel Shield tankers forget is the utility of Shields. Firstly no mobility penalties for respectable EHP values, you won't hit 1000 EHP but you will easily get around 700-800, respectable regenerative capacity, and access to utility modules from fitting enhancer, biotic enhancers, hacking modules, scanning modules. That is versatility. Min Assault is possibly the best assault in the game because of this. It has a fantastic slot layout and its base speed/stamina regen works wonders. It is unbelievably flexible, running deadly shield and armor fits. Heck, I say that for most Minmatar suits. Outside of the scout and Logi, every suit can either be shield, or armor tanked. Its half the reason why I love all their suits.
^^^^^
I wish other race's fits were as varied as the Winmatar.
Heck, within 5 minutes I figured out cookie cutter fits for the Gal Assault and Cal Assault.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
|
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
2970
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 02:39:00 -
[103] - Quote
Ghost Kaisar wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:Ghost Kaisar wrote:True Adamance wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
question....can you fit dual dmg mods on a maddy?
No not even with a Complex CPU Extender and a Basic Turret. Unless you want to sacrifice your entire armour tank capacity. @ Ghost- Do it your heathen dog! I'd love to argue shield vs Armour, Amarr vs Minmatar semantics...but prepare for me to giggle every time I talk about crusading for stuff, God, and slavery. IRL I sometimes cannot take it all seriously. Who else should we invite to the Armor vs Shield Dream Team? >Cat Merc >Ghost Kaisar >True Adamance We have 3 slots open people. Jump on it. I would say me, but I dont quite know the TZ thats on. And, I may be on and off randomly. I haz life. I'll just make a custom chat group and invite you all with mails. Hop on together whenever we notice that a few of us are on.
Tommorrow Ill be on.
"Minja" and "Masochist" are synonyms.
FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ
I piss Remote Explosives and shit Shotgun shells.
|
Meeko Fent
Kirkinen Risk Control
Caldari State
2165
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 02:40:00 -
[104] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:The issue with Shields is that I sacrifice a great deal to capitalize on my strength (regen)
I have to sacrifice all my major armor buffer to get a very good Regen.
Armor suits have more versatility in that they already have their buffer built in to how their suit is designed to play. I could slap MORE buffer, in the way of shields, or I can add damage, or add melee, or add the other high mods.
To do the same, I have to rely on my shields, which then regen too slowly to be able to rapidly reengage following a fight. I clear a area out of guys, wait for shields to recharge before rushing the last bit of terrain, and they've already spawned back.
That, and, 1 v 1, a pure armor suit will likely win every time. They have more buffer compared to pure shield, and they have the added damage from the free highs.
Nothing in the lows really provide an incentive to fit shield suits for hit and run, besides just running. And then, I lose a good deal for having longer recharge delays for that speed.
Balancing PURE shields and PURE armor will be VERY hard. Both bricked? And their pretty equal.
Its just PURELY, armor is inherently better. You shouldn't be armour tanking on a shield suit anyway. The one thing I feel Shield tankers forget is the utility of Shields. Firstly no mobility penalties for respectable EHP values, you won't hit 1000 EHP but you will easily get around 700-800, respectable regenerative capacity, and access to utility modules from fitting enhancer, biotic enhancers, hacking modules, scanning modules. That is versatility.
No. RONG.
You get 700-800 eHP on proto suits.
On a cheap Standard suit, If you run pure shield, you end up w/ 600 eHP. W/ Capped out HP skills. Whereas a Bricked shield suit could reach a hundred HP higher, giving it a solid lead in CQC, or 1 v 1 fights. A Armor Suit is inherently higher still.
That Regen is useful, but as I said, capitalizing on regen loses a great deal of versatility in shield suits, making them one trick ponies. You have to lose your lows to make a good frontline shield suit, if you don't touch armor.
You NEED better regen to make a shield great, because they lose eHP compared to armor, and you need to source that regen not only from your famed "utility" slots, but you also have to set aside a slot or two for boosting your general recharge rate (HP/s) from your highs, reducing your options for buffer more.
Maybe this is less an issue of shields being bad, and more a place of saying standard caldari shield suits are bad. Ish. Not really. Like I said, bricks are always great, and even then, the regen is still good, but it still isn't as good as armor, considering the current meta of maps.
Have I ever told you how much the Maps are favoring high eHP suits lately?
I Live for Tears
|
Ghost Kaisar
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
8378
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 02:40:00 -
[105] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Ghost Kaisar wrote:True Adamance wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:The issue with Shields is that I sacrifice a great deal to capitalize on my strength (regen)
I have to sacrifice all my major armor buffer to get a very good Regen.
Armor suits have more versatility in that they already have their buffer built in to how their suit is designed to play. I could slap MORE buffer, in the way of shields, or I can add damage, or add melee, or add the other high mods.
To do the same, I have to rely on my shields, which then regen too slowly to be able to rapidly reengage following a fight. I clear a area out of guys, wait for shields to recharge before rushing the last bit of terrain, and they've already spawned back.
That, and, 1 v 1, a pure armor suit will likely win every time. They have more buffer compared to pure shield, and they have the added damage from the free highs.
Nothing in the lows really provide an incentive to fit shield suits for hit and run, besides just running. And then, I lose a good deal for having longer recharge delays for that speed.
Balancing PURE shields and PURE armor will be VERY hard. Both bricked? And their pretty equal.
Its just PURELY, armor is inherently better. You shouldn't be armour tanking on a shield suit anyway. The one thing I feel Shield tankers forget is the utility of Shields. Firstly no mobility penalties for respectable EHP values, you won't hit 1000 EHP but you will easily get around 700-800, respectable regenerative capacity, and access to utility modules from fitting enhancer, biotic enhancers, hacking modules, scanning modules. That is versatility. Min Assault is possibly the best assault in the game because of this. It has a fantastic slot layout and its base speed/stamina regen works wonders. It is unbelievably flexible, running deadly shield and armor fits. Heck, I say that for most Minmatar suits. Outside of the scout and Logi, every suit can either be shield, or armor tanked. Its half the reason why I love all their suits. ^^^^^ I wish other race's fits were as varied as the Winmatar. Heck, within a 5 minutes I figured out cookie cutter fits for the Gal Assault and Cal Assault.
Check the main page of proto fits.
I named a fit after you. I want someone to try my Hybrid Tanked Gal Assault.
Bullet Hell and Duct-Tape? Count me in!
FA recruits get free officer BPO's. Enlist today. Must be a scrub to enter.
|
Imp Smash
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
442
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 02:41:00 -
[106] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:I mean, how is a cal heavy supposed to survive Cal heavies are the red headed step children. Sentinels have no reason to do anything but brick HP, and that's where armor excels. They need their own treatment, and it doesn't mean that armor on all classes is better.
I kinda disagree with this. My Sents are Minmatar and Cal. My Min is a flank speed heavy. Relatively squishy made for sneaking around and Burst HMGing the guy in the back before running away.
My frontline sent is a Cal. And he works. I can't trade blows with a gal or amarr by any means -- but I can warfighter all day. A few obstacles here and there and I am super hard to kill. With a 3 second delay on recharge, a less than 1 second delay on depleted, and 45+ a sec back I am pretty good as long as I have a box or pillar to jump behind. Wear them down...
It's up to battle doctrine and yes, even Heavies, can skirmish. |
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
13462
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 02:43:00 -
[107] - Quote
Meeko Fent wrote:True Adamance wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:The issue with Shields is that I sacrifice a great deal to capitalize on my strength (regen)
I have to sacrifice all my major armor buffer to get a very good Regen.
Armor suits have more versatility in that they already have their buffer built in to how their suit is designed to play. I could slap MORE buffer, in the way of shields, or I can add damage, or add melee, or add the other high mods.
To do the same, I have to rely on my shields, which then regen too slowly to be able to rapidly reengage following a fight. I clear a area out of guys, wait for shields to recharge before rushing the last bit of terrain, and they've already spawned back.
That, and, 1 v 1, a pure armor suit will likely win every time. They have more buffer compared to pure shield, and they have the added damage from the free highs.
Nothing in the lows really provide an incentive to fit shield suits for hit and run, besides just running. And then, I lose a good deal for having longer recharge delays for that speed.
Balancing PURE shields and PURE armor will be VERY hard. Both bricked? And their pretty equal.
Its just PURELY, armor is inherently better. You shouldn't be armour tanking on a shield suit anyway. The one thing I feel Shield tankers forget is the utility of Shields. Firstly no mobility penalties for respectable EHP values, you won't hit 1000 EHP but you will easily get around 700-800, respectable regenerative capacity, and access to utility modules from fitting enhancer, biotic enhancers, hacking modules, scanning modules. That is versatility. No. RONG. You get 700-800 eHP on proto suits. On a cheap Standard suit, If you run pure shield, you end up w/ 600 eHP. W/ Capped out HP skills. Whereas a Bricked shield suit could reach a hundred HP higher, giving it a solid lead in CQC, or 1 v 1 fights. A Armor Suit is inherently higher still. That Regen is useful, but as I said, capitalizing on regen loses a great deal of versatility in shield suits, making them one trick ponies. You have to lose your lows to make a good frontline shield suit, if you don't touch armor. You NEED better regen to make a shield great, because they lose eHP compared to armor, and you need to source that regen not only from your famed "utility" slots, but you also have to set aside a slot or two for boosting your general recharge rate (HP/s), reducing your options for buffer more. Maybe this is less an issue of shields being bad, and more a place of saying standard caldari shield suits are bad. Ish. Not really. Like I said, bricks are always great, and even then, the regen is still good, but it still isn't as good as armor, considering the current meta of maps. Have I ever told you how much the Maps are favoring high eHP suits lately?
Have you noticed that STD repairers give a very low amount of HP/s?
Have you noticed that the base regen between STD and PRO suits on shields is the same?
STD armor suits might have more HP than STD shield suits, but they are VERY inferior in terms of regen.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
|
True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
15257
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 02:43:00 -
[108] - Quote
Ghost Kaisar wrote:True Adamance wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:The issue with Shields is that I sacrifice a great deal to capitalize on my strength (regen)
I have to sacrifice all my major armor buffer to get a very good Regen.
Armor suits have more versatility in that they already have their buffer built in to how their suit is designed to play. I could slap MORE buffer, in the way of shields, or I can add damage, or add melee, or add the other high mods.
To do the same, I have to rely on my shields, which then regen too slowly to be able to rapidly reengage following a fight. I clear a area out of guys, wait for shields to recharge before rushing the last bit of terrain, and they've already spawned back.
That, and, 1 v 1, a pure armor suit will likely win every time. They have more buffer compared to pure shield, and they have the added damage from the free highs.
Nothing in the lows really provide an incentive to fit shield suits for hit and run, besides just running. And then, I lose a good deal for having longer recharge delays for that speed.
Balancing PURE shields and PURE armor will be VERY hard. Both bricked? And their pretty equal.
Its just PURELY, armor is inherently better. You shouldn't be armour tanking on a shield suit anyway. The one thing I feel Shield tankers forget is the utility of Shields. Firstly no mobility penalties for respectable EHP values, you won't hit 1000 EHP but you will easily get around 700-800, respectable regenerative capacity, and access to utility modules from fitting enhancer, biotic enhancers, hacking modules, scanning modules. That is versatility. Min Assault is possibly the best assault in the game because of this. It has a fantastic slot layout and its base speed/stamina regen works wonders. It is unbelievably flexible, running deadly shield and armor fits. Heck, I say that for most Minmatar suits. Outside of the scout and Logi, every suit can either be shield, or armor tanked. Its half the reason why I love all their suits.
I would argue the same thing. The Minmatar Assault, and I say this off the record, is a lovely frame, no aesthetically, but statistically.
4 highs / 4 lows
Built in Hack Bonus (very small), High mobility, balanced Stats making it basically suited for whatever doctrine I want to roll at any time.
Now "IF" I were hypothetically to have an alt on which I test things I cannot on True Adamance this alt certainly would not happen to have Minmatar Assault V.
I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this.
Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
|
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
2970
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 02:45:00 -
[109] - Quote
PSA: shorten quotes to the bare minimum. Its painful to read.
"Minja" and "Masochist" are synonyms.
FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ
I piss Remote Explosives and shit Shotgun shells.
|
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
13462
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 02:47:00 -
[110] - Quote
Ghost Kaisar wrote:
Check the main page of proto fits.
I named a fit after you. I want someone to try my Hybrid Tanked Gal Assault.
It's an interesting fit I'll give you that.
Back when armor was terribad, I used to rely on my shields to absorb damage and then take cover when my armor started to take damage, because the regen was pitiful on armor.
With this fit the delay is 3/4.5, which might make this play style a thing again.
I'll check it out.
Not dying instantly whenever a combat rifle decides to show up does sound appealing.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
|
|
|
True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
15257
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 02:47:00 -
[111] - Quote
Meeko Fent wrote:True Adamance wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:The issue with Shields is that I sacrifice a great deal to capitalize on my strength (regen)
I have to sacrifice all my major armor buffer to get a very good Regen.
Armor suits have more versatility in that they already have their buffer built in to how their suit is designed to play. I could slap MORE buffer, in the way of shields, or I can add damage, or add melee, or add the other high mods.
To do the same, I have to rely on my shields, which then regen too slowly to be able to rapidly reengage following a fight. I clear a area out of guys, wait for shields to recharge before rushing the last bit of terrain, and they've already spawned back.
That, and, 1 v 1, a pure armor suit will likely win every time. They have more buffer compared to pure shield, and they have the added damage from the free highs.
Nothing in the lows really provide an incentive to fit shield suits for hit and run, besides just running. And then, I lose a good deal for having longer recharge delays for that speed.
Balancing PURE shields and PURE armor will be VERY hard. Both bricked? And their pretty equal.
Its just PURELY, armor is inherently better. You shouldn't be armour tanking on a shield suit anyway. The one thing I feel Shield tankers forget is the utility of Shields. Firstly no mobility penalties for respectable EHP values, you won't hit 1000 EHP but you will easily get around 700-800, respectable regenerative capacity, and access to utility modules from fitting enhancer, biotic enhancers, hacking modules, scanning modules. That is versatility. No. RONG. You get 700-800 eHP on proto suits. On a cheap Standard suit, If you run pure shield, you end up w/ 600 eHP. W/ Capped out HP skills. Whereas a Bricked shield suit could reach a hundred HP higher, giving it a solid lead in CQC, or 1 v 1 fights. A Armor Suit is inherently higher still. That Regen is useful, but as I said, capitalizing on regen loses a great deal of versatility in shield suits, making them one trick ponies. You have to lose your lows to make a good frontline shield suit, if you don't touch armor. You NEED better regen to make a shield great, because they lose eHP compared to armor, and you need to source that regen not only from your famed "utility" slots, but you also have to set aside a slot or two for boosting your general recharge rate (HP/s) from your highs, reducing your options for buffer more. Maybe this is less an issue of shields being bad, and more a place of saying standard caldari shield suits are bad. Ish. Not really. Like I said, bricks are always great, and even then, the regen is still good, but it still isn't as good as armor, considering the current meta of maps. Have I ever told you how much the Maps are favoring high eHP suits lately?
My low tier Armour Suits also suffer lesser EHP values 630 at standard level.
I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this.
Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
|
Ghost Kaisar
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
8381
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 02:49:00 -
[112] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Ghost Kaisar wrote:
Check the main page of proto fits.
I named a fit after you. I want someone to try my Hybrid Tanked Gal Assault.
It's an interesting fit I'll give you that. Back when armor was terribad, I used to rely on my shields to absorb damage and then take cover when my armor started to take damage, because the regen was pitiful on armor. With this fit the delay is 3/4.5, which might make this play style a thing again. I'll check it out. Not dying instantly whenever a combat rifle decides to show up does sound appealing.
Bullet Hell and Duct-Tape? Count me in!
FA recruits get free officer BPO's. Enlist today. Must be a scrub to enter.
|
Meeko Fent
Kirkinen Risk Control
Caldari State
2165
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 02:53:00 -
[113] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:True Adamance wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:The issue with Shields is that I sacrifice a great deal to capitalize on my strength (regen)
I have to sacrifice all my major armor buffer to get a very good Regen.
Armor suits have more versatility in that they already have their buffer built in to how their suit is designed to play. I could slap MORE buffer, in the way of shields, or I can add damage, or add melee, or add the other high mods.
To do the same, I have to rely on my shields, which then regen too slowly to be able to rapidly reengage following a fight. I clear a area out of guys, wait for shields to recharge before rushing the last bit of terrain, and they've already spawned back.
That, and, 1 v 1, a pure armor suit will likely win every time. They have more buffer compared to pure shield, and they have the added damage from the free highs.
Nothing in the lows really provide an incentive to fit shield suits for hit and run, besides just running. And then, I lose a good deal for having longer recharge delays for that speed.
Balancing PURE shields and PURE armor will be VERY hard. Both bricked? And their pretty equal.
Its just PURELY, armor is inherently better. You shouldn't be armour tanking on a shield suit anyway. The one thing I feel Shield tankers forget is the utility of Shields. Firstly no mobility penalties for respectable EHP values, you won't hit 1000 EHP but you will easily get around 700-800, respectable regenerative capacity, and access to utility modules from fitting enhancer, biotic enhancers, hacking modules, scanning modules. That is versatility. No. RONG. You get 700-800 eHP on proto suits. On a cheap Standard suit, If you run pure shield, you end up w/ 600 eHP. W/ Capped out HP skills. Whereas a Bricked shield suit could reach a hundred HP higher, giving it a solid lead in CQC, or 1 v 1 fights. A Armor Suit is inherently higher still. That Regen is useful, but as I said, capitalizing on regen loses a great deal of versatility in shield suits, making them one trick ponies. You have to lose your lows to make a good frontline shield suit, if you don't touch armor. You NEED better regen to make a shield great, because they lose eHP compared to armor, and you need to source that regen not only from your famed "utility" slots, but you also have to set aside a slot or two for boosting your general recharge rate (HP/s), reducing your options for buffer more. Maybe this is less an issue of shields being bad, and more a place of saying standard caldari shield suits are bad. Ish. Not really. Like I said, bricks are always great, and even then, the regen is still good, but it still isn't as good as armor, considering the current meta of maps. Have I ever told you how much the Maps are favoring high eHP suits lately? Have you noticed that STD repairers give a very low amount of HP/s? Have you noticed that the base regen between STD and PRO suits on shields is the same? STD armor suits might have more HP than STD shield suits, but they are VERY inferior in terms of regen.
Well, maybe I should have said that I used maxed gear in this. Sorry. Maxed reppers are ok, and even then, a Comp reactive I something I always have on one of my fits. Standard gear is really crummy
But, even at that, at least the armor would survive to rep another day. Not trying to argue w/ the great Cat Merc (murrow), But Armor also has a ton of perks shield doesn't
- Triage Hives
- Repair Tools
- Needles
Armor gets a ton more support from logis then shield does. As in all the support. A Armor suit may not even have to worry about regen, it may have a triage hive in its pocket ready to throw down, or a buddy w/ a rep tool.
Of course, you are right in that solo armor suits vs solo shield suits lose because of the lack of regen.
I Live for Tears
|
Meeko Fent
Kirkinen Risk Control
Caldari State
2165
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 02:53:00 -
[114] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:True Adamance wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:The issue with Shields is that I sacrifice a great deal to capitalize on my strength (regen)
I have to sacrifice all my major armor buffer to get a very good Regen.
Armor suits have more versatility in that they already have their buffer built in to how their suit is designed to play. I could slap MORE buffer, in the way of shields, or I can add damage, or add melee, or add the other high mods.
To do the same, I have to rely on my shields, which then regen too slowly to be able to rapidly reengage following a fight. I clear a area out of guys, wait for shields to recharge before rushing the last bit of terrain, and they've already spawned back.
That, and, 1 v 1, a pure armor suit will likely win every time. They have more buffer compared to pure shield, and they have the added damage from the free highs.
Nothing in the lows really provide an incentive to fit shield suits for hit and run, besides just running. And then, I lose a good deal for having longer recharge delays for that speed.
Balancing PURE shields and PURE armor will be VERY hard. Both bricked? And their pretty equal.
Its just PURELY, armor is inherently better. You shouldn't be armour tanking on a shield suit anyway. The one thing I feel Shield tankers forget is the utility of Shields. Firstly no mobility penalties for respectable EHP values, you won't hit 1000 EHP but you will easily get around 700-800, respectable regenerative capacity, and access to utility modules from fitting enhancer, biotic enhancers, hacking modules, scanning modules. That is versatility. No. RONG. You get 700-800 eHP on proto suits. On a cheap Standard suit, If you run pure shield, you end up w/ 600 eHP. W/ Capped out HP skills. Whereas a Bricked shield suit could reach a hundred HP higher, giving it a solid lead in CQC, or 1 v 1 fights. A Armor Suit is inherently higher still. That Regen is useful, but as I said, capitalizing on regen loses a great deal of versatility in shield suits, making them one trick ponies. You have to lose your lows to make a good frontline shield suit, if you don't touch armor. You NEED better regen to make a shield great, because they lose eHP compared to armor, and you need to source that regen not only from your famed "utility" slots, but you also have to set aside a slot or two for boosting your general recharge rate (HP/s) from your highs, reducing your options for buffer more. Maybe this is less an issue of shields being bad, and more a place of saying standard caldari shield suits are bad. Ish. Not really. Like I said, bricks are always great, and even then, the regen is still good, but it still isn't as good as armor, considering the current meta of maps. Have I ever told you how much the Maps are favoring high eHP suits lately? My low tier Armour Suits also suffer lesser EHP values 630 at standard level.
Wat.
What did you do to it man?
I Live for Tears
|
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
13463
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 02:56:00 -
[115] - Quote
Meeko Fent wrote:Well, maybe I should have said that I used maxed gear in this. Sorry. Maxed reppers are ok, and even then, a Comp reactive I something I always have on one of my fits. Standard gear is really crummy But, even at that, at least the armor would survive to rep another day. Not trying to argue w/ the great Cat Merc (murrow), But Armor also has a ton of perks shield doesn't
- Triage Hives
- Repair Tools
- Needles
Armor gets a ton more support from logis then shield does. As in all the support. A Armor suit may not even have to worry about regen, it may have a triage hive in its pocket ready to throw down, or a buddy w/ a rep tool. Of course, you are right in that solo armor suits vs solo shield suits lose because of the lack of regen.
A Gun > Repair tool
Unless you're a sentinel, don't expect repairers on you, unless you're in pubs and you have a dedicated Logi farming points on you while you kill a bunch of redberries. (Cough Arkena Cough)
Needles now apply to both shields and armor.
Triage hives have been nerfed quite a bit from their original godly incarnation, they don't last long and get killed by being sneezed at.
And they still have the same problems they always had - They force you to play passively, you can't be the aggressor with them.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
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Ghost Kaisar
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
8381
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 02:56:00 -
[116] - Quote
Hopping onto Dust now.
Join "Shields vs Armor" chat channel. Join if you are able.
Bullet Hell and Duct-Tape? Count me in!
FA recruits get free officer BPO's. Enlist today. Must be a scrub to enter.
|
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
13463
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 02:56:00 -
[117] - Quote
Ghost Kaisar wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Ghost Kaisar wrote:
Check the main page of proto fits.
I named a fit after you. I want someone to try my Hybrid Tanked Gal Assault.
It's an interesting fit I'll give you that. Back when armor was terribad, I used to rely on my shields to absorb damage and then take cover when my armor started to take damage, because the regen was pitiful on armor. With this fit the delay is 3/4.5, which might make this play style a thing again. I'll check it out. Not dying instantly whenever a combat rifle decides to show up does sound appealing.
http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/193/9798
I edited the fit to include a kin cat.
6.9m/s is just too damn slow for me.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
15258
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 03:01:00 -
[118] - Quote
Meeko Fent wrote:True Adamance wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:True Adamance wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:The issue with Shields is that I sacrifice a great deal to capitalize on my strength (regen)
I have to sacrifice all my major armor buffer to get a very good Regen.
Armor suits have more versatility in that they already have their buffer built in to how their suit is designed to play. I could slap MORE buffer, in the way of shields, or I can add damage, or add melee, or add the other high mods.
To do the same, I have to rely on my shields, which then regen too slowly to be able to rapidly reengage following a fight. I clear a area out of guys, wait for shields to recharge before rushing the last bit of terrain, and they've already spawned back.
That, and, 1 v 1, a pure armor suit will likely win every time. They have more buffer compared to pure shield, and they have the added damage from the free highs.
Nothing in the lows really provide an incentive to fit shield suits for hit and run, besides just running. And then, I lose a good deal for having longer recharge delays for that speed.
Balancing PURE shields and PURE armor will be VERY hard. Both bricked? And their pretty equal.
Its just PURELY, armor is inherently better. You shouldn't be armour tanking on a shield suit anyway. The one thing I feel Shield tankers forget is the utility of Shields. Firstly no mobility penalties for respectable EHP values, you won't hit 1000 EHP but you will easily get around 700-800, respectable regenerative capacity, and access to utility modules from fitting enhancer, biotic enhancers, hacking modules, scanning modules. That is versatility. No. RONG. You get 700-800 eHP on proto suits. On a cheap Standard suit, If you run pure shield, you end up w/ 600 eHP. W/ Capped out HP skills. Whereas a Bricked shield suit could reach a hundred HP higher, giving it a solid lead in CQC, or 1 v 1 fights. A Armor Suit is inherently higher still. That Regen is useful, but as I said, capitalizing on regen loses a great deal of versatility in shield suits, making them one trick ponies. You have to lose your lows to make a good frontline shield suit, if you don't touch armor. You NEED better regen to make a shield great, because they lose eHP compared to armor, and you need to source that regen not only from your famed "utility" slots, but you also have to set aside a slot or two for boosting your general recharge rate (HP/s) from your highs, reducing your options for buffer more. Maybe this is less an issue of shields being bad, and more a place of saying standard caldari shield suits are bad. Ish. Not really. Like I said, bricks are always great, and even then, the regen is still good, but it still isn't as good as armor, considering the current meta of maps. Have I ever told you how much the Maps are favoring high eHP suits lately? My low tier Armour Suits also suffer lesser EHP values 630 at standard level. Wat. What did you do to it man?
1 Ferroscale to maintain mobility 2x Reppers.
Can get a Caldari Assault with 647 EHP as well.
I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this.
Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
|
Ydubbs81
Ahrendee Mercenaries
1
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 03:02:00 -
[119] - Quote
Ghost Kaisar wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Ghost Kaisar wrote:My take on this
Big Ass wall of text most weapons are armor based or most used weapons are armor based? Because the scr rifle, laser, assault, shotgun...all hurt like hell. Not to mention, the one grenade that can ruin your life doesn't even have to hit you directly. You just have to be in the blast radius to lose it all. It is far more common to see anti-armor weapons on the battlefield. SMG, RR, CR, HMG, BP, Flaylock, and Mass driver are all anti-armor. All shields have going against them are ScR, IP, ScP, Shotgun, AR. Plasma Cannon and Sniper Rifles not mentioned because of sheer rarity. Heck, I was hesitant to even put the Ion Pistol on there. Yes, the anti-shield weapons hurt like hell. As they should. Shotguns get no special treatment, alpha is so high they wreck armor suits as well (Outside of heavies). Yes. Fluxes suck. A lot. Could be tweaked, but I personally find it to be a balance point, considering as they have no killing ability whatsoever. After reading some of these responses, I think we should just get all of us arguing together in a squad and play some matches while playing our fits. Would be fun.
I'm sure that you see those weapons but which do you see in abundance? Smg, HMG, ACR, SCR, AR.
I see more sniper kills than I do MD, flaylock, Bp, etc |
Slave of MORTE
Eyniletti Rangers
Minmatar Republic
118
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 03:02:00 -
[120] - Quote
Ace Boone wrote:Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:All shields need are better inherent regen on the shield tanking suits (i.e. lower delays and higher recharge rates)
Minmitar suits should have lowest delays, but not as high shield HP or recharge rate as Caldari.
However, all min/cal suits (except for scouts) need better shield regen stats inherently. My min assaults regen is a bit disappointing unless I put on regulators. Armor reps through damage, and HP tanking is more effective because of that. If Shields repped through damage, they would be OP, but since armor does, it's the best imo. But I shield tank everything, so what am I saying.
So why not run those modules you have 4 lows :/
Yet another slave of Mortedeamor
|
|
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hfderrtgvcd
1396
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 03:03:00 -
[121] - Quote
Ghost Kaisar wrote:True Adamance wrote:
Min Assault can cap out at 1014.3 EHP...not half bad and has significantly better regen and movement speed.
Caps out at much higher, but its pretty much a shitfit past around 900 HP. ADVANCE NOTE. All suits were fitted with a Proto CR and Proto Flaylock to boot. Gotta be combat effective when designing a suit. Moving on. Max HP I could get while maintaining some level of intelligence was 1021.4 HP. 4x Shields, 2x Ferro, 1x React, 1x Rep. Dual Tanking sin right here. 14hp/s is not enough for its armor pool, and it has 6/10 second depleted/delay with base regen. Shitfit, I could take it down with a decent fit assault, shield or armor. Abuse some cover and watch his buffer go to bits, as he has no decent regen to back it up. Yes, it may have better speed, but dear god is its regen horrific. Hell, I can easily run 1000+ HP on an Amarr assault and still run 20+ hp/s armor rep.
Best Armor fit for a Min Assault (IMO) caps out at around 907 HP. It runs 2x ADV Shields, 2x Damage Mods, 2x Complex Plates, 2x Repair. It has 535 armor with 21 hp/s rep, with a decent shield buffer. Still sprints at around 7m/s. I love this suit for CQC maps, the constant regen really helps. Best Shield Fit for a Min Assault (IMO) Caps out at around 702 HP. It runs 3x shields, 1x Energizer, 3x Regulators, 1x Kincat. Thing has 1.92/3.13 for its delay/deplete, along with 43 hp/s regen. Speed helps a lot. My personal Min Assault runs a Hybrid tank, and is the best way to run it IMO. It runs 3x Shields, 1x Recharger, 1x Energizer, 1x Repair, 1x Ferroscale, 1x Kincat. Runs at 800 HP, with decent shield and armor regen, while maintaining it's high speed. An excellent skirmishing fit.
your armor fit is terribad. The reason to use the minmatar assault is the crazy strafe speed. Two complex plates completely ruin it.
You can't fight in here! This is the war room.
|
Ydubbs81
Ahrendee Mercenaries
1
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 03:04:00 -
[122] - Quote
hfderrtgvcd wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:I mean, how is a cal heavy supposed to compete cal heavies are beast. The hmg does -15% damage to shields.
vs an amarr heavy that has resistance to the HMG with maybe 1000hp of armor and a logi?? |
Meeko Fent
Kirkinen Risk Control
Caldari State
2165
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 03:05:00 -
[123] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:Well, maybe I should have said that I used maxed gear in this. Sorry. Maxed reppers are ok, and even then, a Comp reactive I something I always have on one of my fits. Standard gear is really crummy But, even at that, at least the armor would survive to rep another day. Not trying to argue w/ the great Cat Merc (murrow), But Armor also has a ton of perks shield doesn't
- Triage Hives
- Repair Tools
- Needles
Armor gets a ton more support from logis then shield does. As in all the support. A Armor suit may not even have to worry about regen, it may have a triage hive in its pocket ready to throw down, or a buddy w/ a rep tool. Of course, you are right in that solo armor suits vs solo shield suits lose because of the lack of regen. A Gun > Repair tool Unless you're a sentinel, don't expect repairers on you, unless you're in pubs and you have a dedicated Logi farming points on you while you kill a bunch of redberries. (Cough Arkena Cough) Needles now apply to both shields and armor. Triage hives have been nerfed quite a bit from their original godly incarnation, they don't last long and get killed by being sneezed at. And they still have the same problems they always had - They force you to play passively, you can't be the aggressor with them.
True, but still, being able to fill up your armor pretty quick, plus the regular regen, is still good; plus that inherent eHP bonus. I was unaware that needles affected shields too, and it makes me sad. That was a pretty good plus to armor.
I was suggesting that you've survived the fight, and the other teams at spawn (or uplinks), and you can then get topped off by a friendly logi , if you play in a squad. After the Heavy is topped off, the logi can then rep you.
I Live for Tears
|
hfderrtgvcd
1396
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 03:05:00 -
[124] - Quote
Ydubbs81 wrote:hfderrtgvcd wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:I mean, how is a cal heavy supposed to compete cal heavies are beast. The hmg does -15% damage to shields. vs an amarr heavy that has resistance to the HMG with maybe 1000hp of armor and a logi??
You can't compare 2 players to 1. In a 1v1 a cal heavy will win everytime if he knows what he's doing.
You can't fight in here! This is the war room.
|
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
2970
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 03:06:00 -
[125] - Quote
I think that if shield suits got a bit more inherent regen, all these complaints would dissolve, and would reach true balance.
Scouts, Im excluding you from the above statement.
New theoretical values:
Assaults:
M: 3/4 delays, 30 recharge rate
C: 5/6 delays, 35 recharge rate
Commandos:
M: 6/8 delays, 25 recharge rate
C: 7/9 delays, 30 recharge rate
Sentinels:
Minmitar and Cladari both get the shield delays of the current Caldari sentinel
"Minja" and "Masochist" are synonyms.
FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ
I piss Remote Explosives and shit Shotgun shells.
|
True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
15258
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 03:08:00 -
[126] - Quote
Meeko Fent wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:Well, maybe I should have said that I used maxed gear in this. Sorry. Maxed reppers are ok, and even then, a Comp reactive I something I always have on one of my fits. Standard gear is really crummy But, even at that, at least the armor would survive to rep another day. Not trying to argue w/ the great Cat Merc (murrow), But Armor also has a ton of perks shield doesn't
- Triage Hives
- Repair Tools
- Needles
Armor gets a ton more support from logis then shield does. As in all the support. A Armor suit may not even have to worry about regen, it may have a triage hive in its pocket ready to throw down, or a buddy w/ a rep tool. Of course, you are right in that solo armor suits vs solo shield suits lose because of the lack of regen. A Gun > Repair tool Unless you're a sentinel, don't expect repairers on you, unless you're in pubs and you have a dedicated Logi farming points on you while you kill a bunch of redberries. (Cough Arkena Cough) Needles now apply to both shields and armor. Triage hives have been nerfed quite a bit from their original godly incarnation, they don't last long and get killed by being sneezed at. And they still have the same problems they always had - They force you to play passively, you can't be the aggressor with them. True, but still, being able to fill up your armor pretty quick, plus the regular regen, is still good; plus that inherent eHP bonus. I was unaware that needles affected shields too, and it makes me sad. That was a pretty good plus to armor. I was suggesting that you've survived the fight, and the other teams at spawn (or uplinks), and you can then get topped off by a friendly logi , if you play in a squad. After the Heavy is topped off, the logi can then rep you.
The fact that shield transporters are not currently in the game is matter of poor development as opposed to an issue with balance.
I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this.
Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
|
Ydubbs81
Ahrendee Mercenaries
1
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 03:09:00 -
[127] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
question....can you fit dual dmg mods on a maddy?
No not even with a Complex CPU Extender and a Basic Turret. Unless you want to sacrifice your entire armour tank capacity. @ Ghost- Do it your heathen dog! I'd love to argue shield vs Armour, Amarr vs Minmatar semantics...but prepare for me to giggle every time I talk about crusading for stuff, God, and slavery. IRL I sometimes cannot take it all seriously.
ok...I don't much about maddys. So, I'm basing my opinion on what I see on the ground and maddy blasters are no joke. Maddies-anything are no joke. I don't even know what I would fit vs a maddy rail with a damage mod. Because once he activates his armor hardener, it's goiong to be harder to kill him. I know that I need damage mods to kill a good maddy rail and to use damage mods, I sacrifice health.
Gunnlogis have their defense and offense on the high slot while maddys have their defense on their lows and offense (meaning dmg mods) on their highs. |
Meeko Fent
Kirkinen Risk Control
Caldari State
2165
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 03:13:00 -
[128] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:True Adamance wrote:My low tier Armour Suits also suffer lesser EHP values 630 at standard level.
Wat. What did you do to it man? 1 Ferroscale to maintain mobility 2x Reppers. Can get a Caldari Assault with 647 EHP as well.
Ah. I suppose it would work. Definitely...Different though. I prolly wouldn't do very well in it.
I personally, considering we're talking about amarr suits (I assume), would fit heavy armor in lows w/damage mods in the highs. Generic Armor Suit, basically. If you run ScR (also assumed; Amarr) you get some good projection along with some highly bonused shots. Keep range, and plink. If they get too close, then you could always spam the R1 to death.
Interesting fit, though
I Live for Tears
|
Ydubbs81
Ahrendee Mercenaries
1
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 03:13:00 -
[129] - Quote
Meeko Fent wrote:Of course, you are right in that solo armor suits vs solo shield suits lose because of the lack of regen.
solo armor suits vs solo shield suits will win....shield regen can't help you in an engagement unless there is a lot of cover. In open space and equal skill..the armor suit has the advantage. |
Meeko Fent
Kirkinen Risk Control
Caldari State
2165
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 03:15:00 -
[130] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:Well, maybe I should have said that I used maxed gear in this. Sorry. Maxed reppers are ok, and even then, a Comp reactive I something I always have on one of my fits. Standard gear is really crummy But, even at that, at least the armor would survive to rep another day. Not trying to argue w/ the great Cat Merc (murrow), But Armor also has a ton of perks shield doesn't
- Triage Hives
- Repair Tools
- Needles
Armor gets a ton more support from logis then shield does. As in all the support. A Armor suit may not even have to worry about regen, it may have a triage hive in its pocket ready to throw down, or a buddy w/ a rep tool. Of course, you are right in that solo armor suits vs solo shield suits lose because of the lack of regen. A Gun > Repair tool Unless you're a sentinel, don't expect repairers on you, unless you're in pubs and you have a dedicated Logi farming points on you while you kill a bunch of redberries. (Cough Arkena Cough) Needles now apply to both shields and armor. Triage hives have been nerfed quite a bit from their original godly incarnation, they don't last long and get killed by being sneezed at. And they still have the same problems they always had - They force you to play passively, you can't be the aggressor with them. True, but still, being able to fill up your armor pretty quick, plus the regular regen, is still good; plus that inherent eHP bonus. I was unaware that needles affected shields too, and it makes me sad. That was a pretty good plus to armor. I was suggesting that you've survived the fight, and the other teams at spawn (or uplinks), and you can then get topped off by a friendly logi , if you play in a squad. After the Heavy is topped off, the logi can then rep you. The fact that shield transporters are not currently in the game is matter of poor development as opposed to an issue with balance.
True, but since we're balancing the now, we might as well assume that this is what we're working w/. The Armor Honeycombing Module isn't here yet 
I Live for Tears
|
|
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
2970
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 03:15:00 -
[131] - Quote
Ydubbs81 wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:Of course, you are right in that solo armor suits vs solo shield suits lose because of the lack of regen. solo armor suits vs solo shield suits will win....shield regen can't help you in an engagement unless there is a lot of cover. In open space and equal skill..the armor suit has the advantage.
Armor also doesn't have to stop regaining HP for 10 seconds because someone farted in their general direction.
"Minja" and "Masochist" are synonyms.
FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ
I piss Remote Explosives and shit Shotgun shells.
|
Meeko Fent
Kirkinen Risk Control
Caldari State
2165
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 03:16:00 -
[132] - Quote
Ydubbs81 wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:Of course, you are right in that solo armor suits vs solo shield suits lose because of the lack of regen. solo armor suits vs solo shield suits will win....shield regen can't help you in an engagement unless there is a lot of cover. In open space and equal skill..the armor suit has the advantage.
And even then, my friend, the armor will just advance when your in cover recharging your shields.
I Live for Tears
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
15258
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 03:18:00 -
[133] - Quote
Meeko Fent wrote:True Adamance wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:Well, maybe I should have said that I used maxed gear in this. Sorry. Maxed reppers are ok, and even then, a Comp reactive I something I always have on one of my fits. Standard gear is really crummy But, even at that, at least the armor would survive to rep another day. Not trying to argue w/ the great Cat Merc (murrow), But Armor also has a ton of perks shield doesn't
- Triage Hives
- Repair Tools
- Needles
Armor gets a ton more support from logis then shield does. As in all the support. A Armor suit may not even have to worry about regen, it may have a triage hive in its pocket ready to throw down, or a buddy w/ a rep tool. Of course, you are right in that solo armor suits vs solo shield suits lose because of the lack of regen. A Gun > Repair tool Unless you're a sentinel, don't expect repairers on you, unless you're in pubs and you have a dedicated Logi farming points on you while you kill a bunch of redberries. (Cough Arkena Cough) Needles now apply to both shields and armor. Triage hives have been nerfed quite a bit from their original godly incarnation, they don't last long and get killed by being sneezed at. And they still have the same problems they always had - They force you to play passively, you can't be the aggressor with them. True, but still, being able to fill up your armor pretty quick, plus the regular regen, is still good; plus that inherent eHP bonus. I was unaware that needles affected shields too, and it makes me sad. That was a pretty good plus to armor. I was suggesting that you've survived the fight, and the other teams at spawn (or uplinks), and you can then get topped off by a friendly logi , if you play in a squad. After the Heavy is topped off, the logi can then rep you. The fact that shield transporters are not currently in the game is matter of poor development as opposed to an issue with balance. True, but since we're balancing the now, we might as well assume that this is what we're working w/. The Armor Honeycombing Module isn't here yet
That's a really great and underrated skill. But when I do inevitably get one......
IMMA HONEYCOMB DAT ***** UP!
I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this.
Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
|
Ydubbs81
Ahrendee Mercenaries
1
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 03:21:00 -
[134] - Quote
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:I think that if shield suits got a bit more inherent regen, all these complaints would dissolve, and would reach true balance.
Scouts, Im excluding you from the above statement.
New theoretical values:
Assaults:
M: 3/4 delays, 30 recharge rate
C: 5/6 delays, 35 recharge rate
Commandos:
M: 6/8 delays, 25 recharge rate
C: 7/9 delays, 30 recharge rate
Sentinels:
Minmitar and Cladari both get the shield delays of the current Caldari sentinel.
Logi's:
I have no idea what the current stats are, and thus no reference for balance.
If you have time to regen, 30 - 50 is definitely adequate.
In order to truly make place them on the same page, you would have to give some of the advantages that armor has to shields. Give logis the ability to rep shields through a fight like they can with armor. Or, a nanohive that allows shields to recharge through damage like armor has. Or, keep the shield depleted delay but remove the regular shield recovery delay like armor has. Buff shield extender hp. Implement a shield mod that gives hp bonus and shield recharge bonus. Place damage mods on low slots, etc
I know some of these suggestions may sound extra but it's the point that I'm making that's more important. |
True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
15258
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 03:23:00 -
[135] - Quote
Meeko Fent wrote:Ydubbs81 wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:Of course, you are right in that solo armor suits vs solo shield suits lose because of the lack of regen. solo armor suits vs solo shield suits will win....shield regen can't help you in an engagement unless there is a lot of cover. In open space and equal skill..the armor suit has the advantage. And even then, my friend, the armor will just advance when your in cover recharging your shields.
That's debatable.
If you are engaging me with an anti armour weapon and I am engaging with an anti shield weapon and I advance on you.......
In the time it take me to regenate 100 points of HP you could have 150 assuming Catmer's fit vs my own.
1 second later
120 vs 200
140 vs 250
170 vs 300
etc.....
I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this.
Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
|
Ydubbs81
Ahrendee Mercenaries
1
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 03:24:00 -
[136] - Quote
hfderrtgvcd wrote:Ydubbs81 wrote:hfderrtgvcd wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:I mean, how is a cal heavy supposed to compete cal heavies are beast. The hmg does -15% damage to shields. vs an amarr heavy that has resistance to the HMG with maybe 1000hp of armor and a logi?? You can't compare 2 players to 1. In a 1v1 a cal heavy will win everytime if he knows what he's doing.
No, you can't but this is the game that we play and I'm talking about what happens on the battlefield. Practice vs theory.
as an amarr heavy, you would benefit from a logi more than a cal heavy would. That's part of the advantage of armor tanking...which is my motivation for this thread......to illustrate the many advantages armor has over shield tanking. |
Ydubbs81
Ahrendee Mercenaries
1
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 03:26:00 -
[137] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:Ydubbs81 wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:Of course, you are right in that solo armor suits vs solo shield suits lose because of the lack of regen. solo armor suits vs solo shield suits will win....shield regen can't help you in an engagement unless there is a lot of cover. In open space and equal skill..the armor suit has the advantage. And even then, my friend, the armor will just advance when your in cover recharging your shields. That's debatable. If you are engaging me with an anti armour weapon and I am engaging with an anti shield weapon and I advance on you....... In the time it take me to regenate 100 points of HP you could have 150 assuming Catmer's fit vs my own. 1 second later 120 vs 200 140 vs 250 170 vs 300 etc.....
are you taking into the account that armor doesn't have a delay while the shield suit has to wait seconds before they start to regen? Any one of my guns reloads faster than it would take my shields to start to regen |
True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
15258
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 03:27:00 -
[138] - Quote
Ydubbs81 wrote:hfderrtgvcd wrote:Ydubbs81 wrote:hfderrtgvcd wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:I mean, how is a cal heavy supposed to compete cal heavies are beast. The hmg does -15% damage to shields. vs an amarr heavy that has resistance to the HMG with maybe 1000hp of armor and a logi?? You can't compare 2 players to 1. In a 1v1 a cal heavy will win everytime if he knows what he's doing. No, you can't but this is the game that we play and I'm talking about what happens on the battlefield. Practice vs theory. as an amarr heavy, you would benefit from a logi more than a cal heavy would. That's part of the advantage of armor tanking...which is my motivation for this thread......to illustrate the many advantages armor has over shield tanking.
But Repair Tools and Shield Transporters (or lack thereof) are design flaws.
Give a Shield suit a Shield Transponder and arguably they are on the same if not greater capacity than armour (I have no issue with this at all) and is only not current in the game as a result of CCP's current stance relating to the release if content in Dust.
You are comparing something that is in the game with something that "should be in the game".
I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this.
Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
|
Meeko Fent
Kirkinen Risk Control
Caldari State
2165
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 03:27:00 -
[139] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:Ydubbs81 wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:Of course, you are right in that solo armor suits vs solo shield suits lose because of the lack of regen. solo armor suits vs solo shield suits will win....shield regen can't help you in an engagement unless there is a lot of cover. In open space and equal skill..the armor suit has the advantage. And even then, my friend, the armor will just advance when your in cover recharging your shields. That's debatable. If you are engaging me with an anti armour weapon and I am engaging with an anti shield weapon and I advance on you....... In the time it take me to regenate 100 points of HP you could have 150 assuming Catmer's fit vs my own. 1 second later 120 vs 200 140 vs 250 170 vs 300 etc.....
Yes, but taken out of spreadsheets, the Armor would likely win in a 1v1, given the already greater eHP, and the lack of need to hide, besides to avoid damage. Where the shield has to avoid damage during recharge, the armor could advance, and hit the shield when he's focusing on hiding, not fighting.
Kinda how the cloak n' shot scouts are so deadly. Only a good deal less cheaty.
I Live for Tears
|
Ydubbs81
Ahrendee Mercenaries
2
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 03:29:00 -
[140] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:
But Repair Tools and Shield Transporters (or lack thereof) are design flaws.
Give a Shield suit a Shield Transponder and arguably they are on the same if not greater capacity than armour (I have no issue with this at all) and is only not current in the game as a result of CCP's current stance relating to the release if content in Dust.
You are comparing something that is in the game with something that "should be in the game".
That's my point...I'm illustrating what armor has now that shields does not. |
|
|
Lloyd Orfay
Kinsho Swords
Caldari State
243
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 03:30:00 -
[141] - Quote
The wide majority of infantry suits have:
Poor shield regeneration values
Very long shield delay/depleted delay times
The damage profiles on weaponry(and the trend of ridiculous high alpha damage plus this the stealth abuse issue in this game) make it so that nearly all weapons can have a vicious effectiveness on shields. It wouldn't make sense for a 60 point damage gun to have 30% more power against shielding when shields have the disadvantage of less HP and the gun is already so powerful.
You need to have high shield HP to live, to improve your bad shield delay, and your bad shield recharge value.
Three modules you need to get for basic survival when shield tanking, which is a heavy investment.
With armour on infantry, you have:
Ability to round up a very large sum of HP in armour
No weapon has any extreme damage profile advantages against armour besides explosives, which not many people use in the first place.
Some modules don't follow the more HP layout of armour, and this allows shielding modules to give more HP than them (e.g., reactive plates)
Regardless you can get past this.
Some suits can tank enough armour to match that of a heavy suit, be only a little bit slowed, and once you have 10 HP/s in armour and up you can have better survivability than shielding(because of how armour regeneration being quite close to instant on infantry where shielding you have to wait often over 3 seconds, which is enough time for someone to find and kill you)
Besides this, you hardly need to invest in modules or skills for armour.
There has been recent high HP stacking of shields, but as stated before the weapons can combat this easily.
With vehicles there's this:
Unnecessary AV buffs and many cutoffs from vehicles have made it so that survivability is really low unless you have level five in most of the shield tree.
Shields on vehicles cannot have their delay time changed, only depleted time, and cannot improve recharge time unless you have proto shield boosters.
The wide majority of AV methods have affective damage profiles against armour.
Swarms and forgeguns are actually effective ways of fighting shields, because swarms are universally overpowered at basic+ and all advanced+ forgeguns are quite a bit ridiculous, especially because of their range.
They can survive Unfair methods of AV like steathily planting RE's on them, unless if they were advanced+ and the vehicle wasn't slightly dual tanked when fluxed. Jihad jeeping is a may thing.
Armour on vehicles, at armour regeneration at five and with other things it may be possible for you to outregenerate the damage, but it will take heavy SP cost.
The wide majority of AV methods are hypereffective against armour based vehicles.
Impractical methods like steathily throwing RE's and jihad jeeping can be done with little to no difficulty and can take ground out then and there. They may be able to survive jihad jeeping.
Dropships are a no go, because unless you are using something like complex CPU/PG upgrades to tank as much HP as possible, they are far too slow to survive.
ADS have better maneuverability, but as they have less HP and very butchered levels of pg/cpu(like most of the vehicles)
it's possible for a swarmer to down them in all 3 volleys, and this can usually be done in 4 seconds or less.
Because of the swarm launcher having an excessive lock time, like how forgeguns have an excessive effective range, it is usually not possibly to escape without an afterburner, hardener, or booster. Swarm users often, even with these things, get the third volley to fire(because any tiny bit of skilling into swarms will make the lock on time less than one second.) Besides this without proto or so it will take time for the module to recharge, keeping you out of the battlefield for quite a bit.
Caldari ADS have the same issue as the other caldari vehicles and same for the gallente ones.
Unless you don't have your gallente vehicles hyped up on regen they won't outperform the caldari ones.
Regardless, Shields and armour for everything is in a bad state.
My Isk payout gets lower and lower the more I play, even though I'm getting better. Smells like success.
|
True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
15258
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 03:32:00 -
[142] - Quote
Ydubbs81 wrote:True Adamance wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:Ydubbs81 wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:Of course, you are right in that solo armor suits vs solo shield suits lose because of the lack of regen. solo armor suits vs solo shield suits will win....shield regen can't help you in an engagement unless there is a lot of cover. In open space and equal skill..the armor suit has the advantage. And even then, my friend, the armor will just advance when your in cover recharging your shields. That's debatable. If you are engaging me with an anti armour weapon and I am engaging with an anti shield weapon and I advance on you....... In the time it take me to regenate 100 points of HP you could have 150 assuming Catmer's fit vs my own. 1 second later 120 vs 200 140 vs 250 170 vs 300 etc..... are you taking into the account that armor doesn't have a delay while the shield suit has to wait seconds before they start to regen? Any one of my guns reloads faster than it would take my shields to start to regen
Yes.
5 seconds.
Catmerc's fit has a delay of 2 seconds and 52.65 rep/sec
Mine has constant passive of 20 rep/sec.
Assuming we stop firing at the same time and have five seconds to regen and reload.
20* 5 = 100 armour reps over 5 seconds
(5 seconds - 2 second delay) = 3 seconds @ 52.65 rep/sec
52.65* 3 = 157.95
In this instance I have not regenerated any of my shielding and am engaging you (by in this instance as stated by Meeko approaching your position) with X EHP + my 100 vs you who is now in a superior positions waiting for my arrival.
In 3 more seconds you will have regenerated 315.9 shielding vs my 160 armour.
I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this.
Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
|
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
2970
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 03:32:00 -
[143] - Quote
Ydubbs81 wrote:Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:I think that if shield suits got a bit more inherent regen, all these complaints would dissolve, and would reach true balance.
Scouts, Im excluding you from the above statement.
New theoretical values:
Assaults:
M: 3/4 delays, 30 recharge rate
C: 5/6 delays, 35 recharge rate
Commandos:
M: 6/8 delays, 25 recharge rate
C: 7/9 delays, 30 recharge rate
Sentinels:
Minmitar and Cladari both get the shield delays of the current Caldari sentinel.
Logi's:
I have no idea what the current stats are, and thus no reference for balance. If you have time to regen, 30 - 50 is definitely adequate. In order to truly make place them on the same page, you would have to give some of the advantages that armor has to shields. Give logis the ability to rep shields through a fight like they can with armor. Or, a nanohive that allows shields to recharge through damage like armor has. Or, keep the shield depleted delay but remove the regular shield recovery delay like armor has. Buff shield extender hp. Implement a shield mod that gives hp bonus and shield recharge bonus. Place damage mods on low slots, etc I know some of these suggestions may sound extra but it's the point that I'm making that's more important.
I like the idea of rep tools setting shield delay to 0, and giving a static multiplier to recharge rates, as well as repairing armor.
I think my values and the above change would really balance shields and armor.
"Minja" and "Masochist" are synonyms.
FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ
I piss Remote Explosives and shit Shotgun shells.
|
True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
15258
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 03:33:00 -
[144] - Quote
Ydubbs81 wrote:True Adamance wrote:
But Repair Tools and Shield Transporters (or lack thereof) are design flaws.
Give a Shield suit a Shield Transponder and arguably they are on the same if not greater capacity than armour (I have no issue with this at all) and is only not current in the game as a result of CCP's current stance relating to the release if content in Dust.
You are comparing something that is in the game with something that "should be in the game".
That's my point...I'm illustrating what armor has now that shields does not.
Then its not a matter of them being unbalanced vs one another its a matter of having not implemented the correct equipment.
I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this.
Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
|
pagl1u M
Dead Man's Game
RUST415
971
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 03:48:00 -
[145] - Quote
1 how can you talk about tanking without talking about playstyle?
2 you cant talk about open space fights without covers, we are not fighting in open arenas, you have to consider every aspect of the game.
One of the few assaults you'll find in a PC match!
|
True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
15259
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 03:57:00 -
[146] - Quote
pagl1u M wrote:1 how can you talk about tanking without talking about playstyle?
2 you cant talk about open space fights without covers, we are not fighting in open arenas, you have to consider every aspect of the game.
You can't. You can only argue numbers. Which I have done.
I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this.
Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
|
Ace Boone
Capital Acquisitions LLC
501
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 05:26:00 -
[147] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:True Adamance wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
I would like to start (or revisit) this conversation to see where the community's head is at as far as which is the more effective choice. I've had arguments with Cat Merc because he feels that armor tanking gets the short end of the stick and I can't believe how he could think that. Shield suits, tanks, ADS are at a disadvantage to armor suits in so many ways. And I just read a thread about shields vs armor in the feedback section and I want to open up the dialogue on this.
I'll start by saying I think that armor tanking beats out shield tanking, generally, more times than not. If you shield tank as opposed to armor or dual tank then you have to play the scared role. Even as a cal heavy....you are subject to flux grenades and +20% scrambler rifle (most OP rifle in the game) ammunition. Shields are your first line of defense. If your first line is your major line of defense and it is gone rapidly, you are strung out of luck. If you armor tank, and you get surprised and lose your shields to a flux or a scrambler rifle...you still have time to react and enough health to defend yourself.
I can really go further but I'd like to open up the floor for discussion...
Nope the Shield HAV is statistically better than the Armour HAV. Better fitting capacity (evinced by the "EHP ***** Sica" which can fit a whole proto line up and field 9K EHP vs Explosive AV) Better tracking and mobility optiions that reduce the penalties of slow tracking turrets Comprable and better EHP values Better stand and deliver capacity Better passive regen capacity (168 per second without even fitting a module after 4 seconds) Access to fitting modules without sacrificing racial tank all of that sounds good but can a shield rail or blaster beat a maddy blaster 1v1? Even a maddy rail has advantages. I don't know much about the fitting requirements of a maddy but most of the health is in the low slots and they can still have dmg mods without sacrificing health.
I agree that Maddys are better in combat, however, it is very hard to actually fit damage mods on a Madrugar without completely sacrificing most of your PG/CPU. That's why a fuel injector is always the go-to module.
Only loyal to the republic.
|
Ace Boone
Capital Acquisitions LLC
501
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 05:28:00 -
[148] - Quote
DeadlyAztec11 wrote:The Minmatar Assault needs a lot better base regen because right now using shield charging mods is a waste because they just don't do enough given our amount of shields and base stats.
It's always better to opt for stacking shield mods on the Minmatar Assault rather than running a recharging mod and thar shouldn't be.
I run two complex regs, one complex kincat and a complex reactive. I love my low slots.
My highs, however, I hate doing. Because energizers sacrifice shields in the name of regen and rechargers just don't give you enough bang.
I feel like there truly is, no "perfect fit" for the Min assault because of the base shield regen.
Only loyal to the republic.
|
hfderrtgvcd
1400
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 05:30:00 -
[149] - Quote
Ace Boone wrote:DeadlyAztec11 wrote:The Minmatar Assault needs a lot better base regen because right now using shield charging mods is a waste because they just don't do enough given our amount of shields and base stats.
It's always better to opt for stacking shield mods on the Minmatar Assault rather than running a recharging mod and thar shouldn't be. I run two complex regs, one complex kincat and a complex reactive. I love my low slots. My highs, however, I hate doing. Because energizers sacrifice shields in the name of regen and rechargers just don't give you enough bang. I feel like there truly is, no "perfect fit" for the Min assault because of the base shield regen.
3 shields
1 energizer
1 regulator
3 reactive plates
Energizers give you a huge regen bonus for a minute hp penalty.
You can't fight in here! This is the war room.
|
Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
8653
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 05:33:00 -
[150] - Quote
Main issue is that people don't know how to properly fit Shield suits as well as have the correct playstyle for them. People just want to run around and cowboy bebop all over the place no matter their method of defense.
We all know that to run shield suits to their full potential you actually have to use some intelligence, which we have seen the DUST community severely lacks.
CCP holds the Caldari's hand so this doesn't happen again.
|
|
|
Mortishai Belmont
G.L.O.R.Y
General Tso's Alliance
246
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 06:19:00 -
[151] - Quote
Shields are beast right now in my opinion. Only because the hit detection seems to only count half of the time...
I've shot people in the head with a proto bolt pistol from 10m, them standing still... Shows the hit marker, makes the sound, no damage what so ever some times.
Don't know if it's just me or what, but once I get through that shield no matter what gun I use, all the damage seems to register and apply.
G.L.O.R.Y Soldier,
I'm that Amarr heavy you warn your team about <3
-Heavy/Logi/Assault/Scout-
|
Ydubbs81
Ahrendee Mercenaries
2
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 06:58:00 -
[152] - Quote
Lloyd Orfay wrote:The wide majority of infantry suits have: Poor shield regeneration values Very long shield delay/depleted delay times The damage profiles on weaponry(and the trend of ridiculous high alpha damage plus this the stealth abuse issue in this game) make it so that nearly all weapons can have a vicious effectiveness on shields. It wouldn't make sense for a 60 point damage gun to have 30% more power against shielding when shields have the disadvantage of less HP and the gun is already so powerful. You need to have high shield HP to live, to improve your bad shield delay, and your bad shield recharge value. Three modules you need to get for basic survival when shield tanking, which is a heavy investment. With armour on infantry, you have: Ability to round up a very large sum of HP in armour No weapon has any extreme damage profile advantages against armour besides explosives, which not many people use in the first place. Some modules don't follow the more HP layout of armour, and this allows shielding modules to give more HP than them (e.g., reactive plates) Regardless you can get past this. Some suits can tank enough armour to match that of a heavy suit, be only a little bit slowed, and once you have 10 HP/s in armour and up you can have better survivability than shielding(because of how armour regeneration being quite close to instant on infantry where shielding you have to wait often over 3 seconds, which is enough time for someone to find and kill you) Besides this, you hardly need to invest in modules or skills for armour. There has been recent high HP stacking of shields, but as stated before the weapons can combat this easily. With vehicles there's this: Unnecessary AV buffs and many cutoffs from vehicles have made it so that survivability is really low unless you have level five in most of the shield tree. Shields on vehicles cannot have their delay time changed, only depleted time, and cannot improve recharge time unless you have proto shield boosters. The wide majority of AV methods have affective damage profiles against armour. Swarms and forgeguns are actually effective ways of fighting shields, because swarms are universally overpowered at basic+ and all advanced+ forgeguns are quite a bit ridiculous, especially because of their range. They can survive Unfair methods of AV like steathily planting RE's on them, unless if they were advanced+ and the vehicle wasn't slightly dual tanked when fluxed. Jihad jeeping is a may thing. Armour on vehicles, at armour regeneration at five and with other things it may be possible for you to outregenerate the damage, but it will take heavy SP cost. The wide majority of AV methods are hypereffective against armour based vehicles. Impractical methods like steathily throwing RE's and jihad jeeping can be done with little to no difficulty and can take ground out then and there. They may be able to survive jihad jeeping. Dropships are a no go, because unless you are using something like complex CPU/PG upgrades to tank as much HP as possible, they are far too slow to survive. ADS have better maneuverability, but as they have less HP and very butchered levels of pg/cpu(like most of the vehicles) it's possible for a swarmer to down them in all 3 volleys, and this can usually be done in 4 seconds or less. Because of the swarm launcher having an excessive lock time, like how forgeguns have an excessive effective range, it is usually not possibly to escape without an afterburner, hardener, or booster. Swarm users often, even with these things, get the third volley to fire(because any tiny bit of skilling into swarms will make the lock on time less than one second.) Besides this without proto or so it will take time for the module to recharge, keeping you out of the battlefield for quite a bit. Caldari ADS have the same issue as the other caldari vehicles and same for the gallente ones. Unless you don't have your gallente vehicles hyped up on regen they won't outperform the caldari ones. Regardless, Shields and armour for everything is in a bad state.
good points |
Ydubbs81
Ahrendee Mercenaries
2
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 07:09:00 -
[153] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Ydubbs81 wrote:
are you taking into the account that armor doesn't have a delay while the shield suit has to wait seconds before they start to regen? Any one of my guns reloads faster than it would take my shields to start to regen
Yes. 5 seconds. Catmerc's fit has a delay of 2 seconds and 52.65 rep/sec Mine has constant passive of 20 rep/sec. Assuming we stop firing at the same time and have five seconds to regen and reload. 20* 5 = 100 armour reps over 5 seconds (5 seconds - 2 second delay) = 3 seconds @ 52.65 rep/sec 52.65* 3 = 157.95 In this instance I have not regenerated any of my shielding and am engaging you (by in this instance as stated by Meeko approaching your position) with X EHP + my 100 vs you who is now in a superior positions waiting for my arrival. In 3 more seconds you will have regenerated 315.9 shielding vs my 160 armour.
That's great if you have 5 seconds to regen. Because if we're gunning each other in a cqc situation, you won' t have 5 secs to regen.
And see, noone can argue that shields regen faster than armor. Noone is denying that....but we can throw some real scenarios into the mix. Like, if a gal assault is sitting in a triage nanohive during this encounter. This is one of my points...all of the different advantages that armor tanking has against shields. There is nothing that a shield tanker can do or equip to have regen during damage.
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
15270
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 07:54:00 -
[154] - Quote
Ydubbs81 wrote:True Adamance wrote:Ydubbs81 wrote:
are you taking into the account that armor doesn't have a delay while the shield suit has to wait seconds before they start to regen? Any one of my guns reloads faster than it would take my shields to start to regen
Yes. 5 seconds. Catmerc's fit has a delay of 2 seconds and 52.65 rep/sec Mine has constant passive of 20 rep/sec. Assuming we stop firing at the same time and have five seconds to regen and reload. 20* 5 = 100 armour reps over 5 seconds (5 seconds - 2 second delay) = 3 seconds @ 52.65 rep/sec 52.65* 3 = 157.95 In this instance I have not regenerated any of my shielding and am engaging you (by in this instance as stated by Meeko approaching your position) with X EHP + my 100 vs you who is now in a superior positions waiting for my arrival. In 3 more seconds you will have regenerated 315.9 shielding vs my 160 armour. That's great if you have 5 seconds to regen. Because if we're gunning each other in a cqc situation, you won' t have 5 secs to regen. And see, noone can argue that shields regen faster than armor. Noone is denying that....but we can throw some real scenarios into the mix. Like, if a gal assault is sitting in a triage nanohive during this encounter. This is one of my points...all of the different advantages that armor tanking has against shields. There is nothing that a shield tanker can do or equip to have regen during damage.
It honestly seems to me like you are pick out ever fault Shielding has and not acknowledging its strengths while at the same time saying "this is how I want to play......but I don't want to do it with armour."
Passive regen means **** all under concentrated fire its more often than not less than one bullet the only time passive armour repping does matter is when you get several seconds of it,
This evening I've been running my Regen/Speed Amarr suit and honestly there is rarely a time I cannot find 5 seconds to regenerate my HP, would be easier if I was doing this with shields/
I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this.
Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
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Mexxx Dust-Slayer
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
149
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 12:46:00 -
[155] - Quote
Nocturnal Soul wrote:Can't really take you seriously when you just called the Scr the most OP rifle in the game while the Cr remains king.
The ScrR is OP, just not as much against armor- which is currently the more popular tank so there is not enough people complaining about it for something to be done.
You feel the CR is OP because you are an armor tanker. You will rarely die to a CR if you are in a shield suit. |
Zindorak
G0DS AM0NG MEN
General Tso's Alliance
1384
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 12:48:00 -
[156] - Quote
Shield is better cuz no speed penalty
Pokemon master and Tekken Lord
Give me da iskiez
Gk0 Scout yay :)
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Mexxx Dust-Slayer
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
149
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 12:50:00 -
[157] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Ydubbs81 wrote:True Adamance wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:Ydubbs81 wrote:
solo armor suits vs solo shield suits will win....shield regen can't help you in an engagement unless there is a lot of cover. In open space and equal skill..the armor suit has the advantage.
And even then, my friend, the armor will just advance when your in cover recharging your shields. That's debatable. If you are engaging me with an anti armour weapon and I am engaging with an anti shield weapon and I advance on you....... In the time it take me to regenate 100 points of HP you could have 150 assuming Catmer's fit vs my own. 1 second later 120 vs 200 140 vs 250 170 vs 300 etc..... are you taking into the account that armor doesn't have a delay while the shield suit has to wait seconds before they start to regen? Any one of my guns reloads faster than it would take my shields to start to regen Yes. 5 seconds. Catmerc's fit has a delay of 2 seconds and 52.65 rep/sec Mine has constant passive of 20 rep/sec. Assuming we stop firing at the same time and have five seconds to regen and reload. 20* 5 = 100 armour reps over 5 seconds (5 seconds - 2 second delay) = 3 seconds @ 52.65 rep/sec 52.65* 3 = 157.95 In this instance I have not regenerated any of my shielding and am engaging you (by in this instance as stated by Meeko approaching your position) with X EHP + my 100 vs you who is now in a superior positions waiting for my arrival. In 3 more seconds you will have regenerated 315.9 shielding vs my 160 armour.
Can we start adding how the highest DPS rifles are anti-shield and are likely to be stacked with damage mods on armour suits into these equations? |
Mexxx Dust-Slayer
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
149
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 12:52:00 -
[158] - Quote
Zindorak wrote:Shield is better cuz no speed penalty
Assuming you didn't read, as someone already stated ferroscale plates give you more HP than a shield extender with no movement penalties. |
pagl1u M
Dead Man's Game
RUST415
974
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 12:53:00 -
[159] - Quote
Mexxx Dust-Slayer wrote:Zindorak wrote:Shield is better cuz no speed penalty Assuming you didn't read, as someone already stated ferroscale plates give you more HP than a shield extender with no movement penalties.
Ferroscale dont have a built-in incredibly fast recharge rate... So....
One of the few assaults you'll find in a PC match!
|
Mexxx Dust-Slayer
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
149
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 12:58:00 -
[160] - Quote
pagl1u M wrote:Mexxx Dust-Slayer wrote:Zindorak wrote:Shield is better cuz no speed penalty Assuming you didn't read, as someone already stated ferroscale plates give you more HP than a shield extender with no movement penalties. Ferroscale dont have a built-in incredibly fast recharge rate... So....
So... you either stack ferros and minimal reps and use a triage hive or logi support, or make a 20HP/S no delay armor rep suit, with similar HP to that of the shield tank counter part and stack damage mods on the high DPS anti-shield weapon to insta kill the shield suit. |
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CrotchGrab 360
Yon Hyaku Nijuu Moyase
1593
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 13:26:00 -
[161] - Quote
speed and regen always win.
I use a Cal assault with over 600 shields and either the breach or rail rifle
and then ADV cal sent with mh-82 with 874 shields, it's awesome, I win
some heavy duels just by jumping, and definitely through stamina.
armour makes you an easy target, but then that's where the logi comes in....
DUST VIDEOS
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Mexxx Dust-Slayer
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
149
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 13:39:00 -
[162] - Quote
Mexxx Dust-Slayer wrote:pagl1u M wrote:Mexxx Dust-Slayer wrote:Zindorak wrote:Shield is better cuz no speed penalty Assuming you didn't read, as someone already stated ferroscale plates give you more HP than a shield extender with no movement penalties. Ferroscale dont have a built-in incredibly fast recharge rate... So.... So... you either stack ferros and minimal reps and use a triage hive or logi support, or make a 20HP/S no delay armor rep suit, with similar HP to that of the shield tank counter part and stack damage mods on the high DPS anti-shield weapon to insta kill the shield suit. Let's not forget it takes a Cal assault to regen its armor 129.33 seconds and a Gal/Amarr assault less than 20 seconds to regen its shields. Or a Cal scout 174 seconds to regen its armor and a Gal/Amarr 9 seconds to regen its shields.
^ |
TYCHUS MAXWELL
The Fun Police
629
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 13:42:00 -
[163] - Quote
I've been asking this myself as I've been thinking of buying a respec this holiday season and I've been playing around with Gallente, Caldari, and Minmitar at ADV level.
Right now I'm leaning towards Armor tanking and here's why:
To me when I want to decide on a suit style especially If I'm going to lock it in to proto, I want it to be good at the worst of times. I will agree that when it comes to mopping up noobs and squad pub stomping shields are great for that. You have lower over all downtime while hiding and you can rely on your teammates to protect you. However, my issue with this is that speed tanking, armor tanking, no tanking all work well when your team is stomping the other team. Hell even in frontline suits or driving around in a murder taxi is viable when your team is dominating the competition. That is not when I want my suit to shine however, I want it to be best when my team is at its worst and that boils down to armor tanking.
Assuming competence from your opponents anytime you duck your head in a hidey hole to wait on your shields, they will surround you and likely flux you before charging leaving you completely vulnerable. In armor thanks to constant regen you can keep up the pressure and fend off such fool hardy charges. On top of this, shield ticking has to be absolutely safe as I've had my shields pittered on stopping regen from ACR rifles at 250 meters. They did next to no damage but even 1 point of damage resets your regen. When defending points and being actually productive for your team this is absolutely abhorrent.
Much in the same way, speed tanking is heavily reliant on if your opponent is playing in HD, if someone spammed equips lagging up the game, and whether or not your opponent sees you coming. Speed tanking is also generally reliant on map control as running around your opponent doesn't matter if you run right into his/her friend. Map control is a sign of team dominance, which goes back to my argument in that I don't want my strength to be based on fair weather situations, where anything would do. That said speed tanking is nice on scouts with cloaks as when sprinting at high speed its incredibly hard to make out their outline.
I'll break it down more specifically according to types:
Logis: Doesn't really matter, it's not a tanky class although I will say armor tanking will keep you from getting insta gibbed as often where shield tanking pretty much means with your already low buffer as a logi added to a low shield buffer that it won't matter what you can regen, as the wanted men say, "You'll be dead!"
HMG Heavies: Armor is better and so is armor regen. Why? Because, you will be on point defense in CQC. Skirmishing in a hmg heavy implies incompetence from your opponents or that your side is stomping and it won't matter what you are. In the case of stomping even, I find speed tanking on a Min heavy to be preferable but when it comes to holding off the masses you're going to last longer Amarr/Gallente buffer tanking with a logi or Amarr/Gallente armor rep tanking. Caldari sentinels just do not work well when the heat is on, and that's when you need a hmg heavy.
Forge Heavies: In this case, a Caldari sentinel is king but only in a specific scenario where he has partial cover and is far from everything but snipers. Most the longer ranged rifles especially the Laser rifle will shred Caldari sentinels. In pretty much any other situation any heavy will do with a forge gun.
Scouts: This is the one case in which I think shields outshine armor tanking, this is mostly because any scout worth their salt will be outfitted to avoid detection and won't want to be weighted down by armor plating. In this case, the natural aspect of Scouts being great hiders actually plays into the abilities of shield tanking. This doesn't really matter however in my opinion, as for the most part the two would be armor scouts have other useful utilities. Low slots are the armor slots and fortunately for would be armor scouts speed and dampening are also low slots.
Assaults: Here's where I really take issue with shield tanking. On a rainy day, hiding won't help you and when you're holding the front line the more time you spend standing around the more likely you are to get outflanked and destroyed utterly. The one advantage shield tanking has is often rendered useless when pressure is applied. You can kill blueberries all day with your proto friends while hiding behind crates? Cool, so can an armor tanker. Can you also consistently exchange fire for longer when you are trying to hold out against superior forces? Nope, after the first volley you will be waiting on your shield ticks because if you don't they're just going to kill you when you poke your head out after 5 seconds and 200 regen. You wait 10 and a flux lands on your head with two players rushing each side of you. The armor tanker only had 100 regen? Yeah, but he was firing at them the entire time strafing in and out. Shields require you to take yourself out of the firefight with anything except an indirect fire weapon which pretty much means Mass Driver.
I have tried hard to make shield tanking work and although I can't say how they could possibly be anymore balanced without breaking the balance, bad scenarios favor armor tanking in my opinion and good scenarios don't really matter.
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pagl1u M
Dead Man's Game
RUST415
974
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 13:47:00 -
[164] - Quote
Mexxx Dust-Slayer wrote:Mexxx Dust-Slayer wrote:pagl1u M wrote:Mexxx Dust-Slayer wrote:Zindorak wrote:Shield is better cuz no speed penalty Assuming you didn't read, as someone already stated ferroscale plates give you more HP than a shield extender with no movement penalties. Ferroscale dont have a built-in incredibly fast recharge rate... So.... So... you either stack ferros and minimal reps and use a triage hive or logi support, or make a 20HP/S no delay armor rep suit, with similar HP to that of the shield tank counter part and stack damage mods on the high DPS anti-shield weapon to insta kill the shield suit. Let's not forget it takes a Cal assault to regen its armor 129.33 seconds and a Gal/Amarr assault less than 20 seconds to regen its shields. Or a Cal scout 174 seconds to regen its armor and a Gal/Amarr 9 seconds to regen its shields. ^
1 why do you quote yourself?
2"insta-killing" why am I even answering?
3 you have lows too, if we look at it this Way it took a gal assault 170 secs to rep his armor, you have lows too...
4 you all look at that 20 hp/s while under fire like you could outrep dmg. Weapons usually have a dps of like 450-500,even if your aim is terrible that 20 hp/s is nothing.
One of the few assaults you'll find in a PC match!
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Mexxx Dust-Slayer
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
154
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 14:02:00 -
[165] - Quote
pagl1u M wrote:Mexxx Dust-Slayer wrote:Mexxx Dust-Slayer wrote:
So... you either stack ferros and minimal reps and use a triage hive or logi support, or make a 20HP/S no delay armor rep suit, with similar HP to that of the shield tank counter part and stack damage mods on the high DPS anti-shield weapon to insta kill the shield suit.
Let's not forget it takes a Cal assault to regen its armor 129.33 seconds and a Gal/Amarr assault less than 20 seconds to regen its shields.
Or a Cal scout 174 seconds to regen its armor and a Gal/Amarr 9 seconds to regen its shields.
^ 1 why do you quote yourself? 2"insta-killing" why am I even answering? 3 you have lows too, if we look at it this Way it took a gal assault 170 secs to rep his armor, you have lows too... 4 you all look at that 20 hp/s while under fire like you could outrep dmg. Weapons usually have a dps of like 450-500,even if your aim is terrible that 20 hp/s is nothing.
1 wanted it to be on top of the new page because that's what most people look at (if that).
2 admitted exaggeration, but the point is that the TTK from an armor suit is far greater than from a shield suit.
3 lows too, for regulators and/or biotics or ewar module. Dual tanking a shield suit is not as efffective as pure shield tanking. The most I'd do is a reactive that gives you 260 armour with 58 seconds to regen and a movement penalty.
4 Agreed you cannot out rep fire but apply that logic to the shield suits, no one says armor suits are not allowed to hide or take cover. Those high DPS weapons are more painful towards shield suits (AR, ScrR usually with damage mods even a CR or RR on a armour suit with damage mods will hurt a shield suit more). If a shield suit wishes to achieve similar DPS he will lose a lot of HP. |
Niuvo
NECROM0NGERS
1040
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 14:22:00 -
[166] - Quote
I find shield tankers quite formidable. |
Mexxx Dust-Slayer
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
154
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 14:24:00 -
[167] - Quote
Niuvo wrote:I find shield tankers quite formidable.
If you are using a CR or RR, definitely.
AR or ScrR not so much.
I think shield tanking vs. armor tanking is close to balance. |
pagl1u M
Dead Man's Game
RUST415
974
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 14:38:00 -
[168] - Quote
Mexxx Dust-Slayer wrote:
3 lows too, for regulators and/or biotics or ewar module. Dual tanking a shield suit is not as efffective as pure shield tanking. The most I'd do is a reactive that gives you 260 armour with 58 seconds to regen and a movement penalty.
4 Agreed you cannot out rep fire but apply that logic to the shield suits, no one says armor suits are not allowed to hide or take cover. Those high DPS weapons are more painful towards shield suits (AR, ScrR usually with damage mods even a CR or RR on a armour suit with damage mods will hurt a shield suit more). If a shield suit wishes to achieve similar DPS he will lose a lot of HP.
You shield tankers talk about dmg mod like they were incredibly super op and about kincats and dampeners like they were useless. If I could put a kincat or a dampeners on my higs I d 100% put one instead of a dmg mod.
Talking about weapons:
1you are strangely forgetting the HMG, one if not the most spammed weapon of the game (for sure it is the most spammed in PC) that has a - 15%/+15% profile.
2 you tell me that cr and rr deal a lot of dmg to shields? I can tell you that SR and BRAR do a lot of dmg to armor too.
One of the few assaults you'll find in a PC match!
|
TYCHUS MAXWELL
The Fun Police
629
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 14:47:00 -
[169] - Quote
pagl1u M wrote:Mexxx Dust-Slayer wrote:
3 lows too, for regulators and/or biotics or ewar module. Dual tanking a shield suit is not as efffective as pure shield tanking. The most I'd do is a reactive that gives you 260 armour with 58 seconds to regen and a movement penalty.
4 Agreed you cannot out rep fire but apply that logic to the shield suits, no one says armor suits are not allowed to hide or take cover. Those high DPS weapons are more painful towards shield suits (AR, ScrR usually with damage mods even a CR or RR on a armour suit with damage mods will hurt a shield suit more). If a shield suit wishes to achieve similar DPS he will lose a lot of HP.
You shield tankers talk about dmg mod like they were incredibly super op and about kincats and dampeners like they were useless. If I could put a kincat or a dampeners on my higs I d 100% put one instead of a dmg mod. Talking about weapons: 1you are strangely forgetting the HMG, one if not the most spammed weapon of the game (for sure it is the most spammed in PC) that has a - 15%/+15% profile. 2 you tell me that cr and rr deal a lot of dmg to shields? I can tell you that SR and BRAR do a lot of dmg to armor too.
You need regulators and some kind of armor rep. Even a Gallente suit has 20 shield regen per second naturally but a Cal assault has only 1 armor rep naturally. Armor isn't your main tank on a Cal suit but that doesn't mean ignoring it will be any good. You need regulators to counter balance the depleted shield delay which will make you have to hide in a hidey hole for an absurd amount of time without one. Caldari don't get a lot of lows for obvious reasons, it's not that low slots other than armor arn't good its that on armor tank suits (Gallente and Amarr) you can use whatever you want on your high slots. Shield tanks need to use regulators on their few low slots to be effective and an armor repper if they want to have armor buffer past the first fire fight. |
Mexxx Dust-Slayer
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
154
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 14:51:00 -
[170] - Quote
pagl1u M wrote:Mexxx Dust-Slayer wrote:
3 lows too, for regulators and/or biotics or ewar module. Dual tanking a shield suit is not as efffective as pure shield tanking. The most I'd do is a reactive that gives you 260 armour with 58 seconds to regen and a movement penalty.
4 Agreed you cannot out rep fire but apply that logic to the shield suits, no one says armor suits are not allowed to hide or take cover. Those high DPS weapons are more painful towards shield suits (AR, ScrR usually with damage mods even a CR or RR on a armour suit with damage mods will hurt a shield suit more). If a shield suit wishes to achieve similar DPS he will lose a lot of HP.
You shield tankers talk about dmg mod like they were incredibly super op and about kincats and dampeners like they were useless. If I could put a kincat or a dampeners on my higs I d 100% put one instead of a dmg mod. Talking about weapons: 1you are strangely forgetting the HMG, one if not the most spammed weapon of the game (for sure it is the most spammed in PC) that has a - 15%/+15% profile. 2 you tell me that cr and rr deal a lot of dmg to shields? I can tell you that SR and BRAR do a lot of dmg to armor too.
I never said they were useless, I even said to use them on a shield suit when you implied I should use armor modules.
1 The shotgun is just as spammed, which 2 shots all shield suits except the cal sent at 3 shots. The HMG's damage profile only makes adifference when you are a shield heavy, in any suit the HMGs DPS is higher than most medium/light suits HP anyway.
2 I said they could potentially do a lot of damage to shield suits if the armour suit user stacks damage mods. If you feel the SR and BRAR do a lot of damge to armor then know its significantly worse to shields. |
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Valor Goat
0
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 15:04:00 -
[171] - Quote
- Comp. shield extenders HP 66 > 70-75 plus PG 11 > 9
- Moving something armor-related from low slots to high slots so that armor tankers don't stack 3 goddamn damage mods on an already OP weapon (regulators are on low slots)
- Giving armor repping a whatever delay, even 1.5 seconds (with no penalties)
- Maybe nerfing a bit anti-shield weapons (I.E. Breach AR and ScR)
~Shield tanking fixed ~ |
THE-PIMP-NAMED-SLICKBACK
Direct Action Resources
240
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 16:49:00 -
[172] - Quote
Its funny that all the high alpha damage weapons are anti-shield, and yet shields can tank far less than armor. However when it comes to anti-armor weapons they're all low damage dps dependent. I don't know how shield tanking is expected to be viable when all it takes is a STD bar to rip you to shreads faster than you can turn around. With the up and coming strafe nerf we'll be an easier target for that easy weapon.
The scrambler rifle wasn't this bad to spite its massive damage to shields there was alway a way to cope or at least escape, but the bar is ridiculous. If that gn isn't going to be toned down then complex shield modes need a damn buff. Far too effective at too far of a range with next to no recoil.
The One And Only
|
Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
8654
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 17:00:00 -
[173] - Quote
I'm getting the feeling that some of these people would be incredibly happy if shield and armor were taken out of the game and replaced with a uniform Hp value.
Only thing I can think about giving shields is a Shield delay threshold value just so a -4 hp ping doesn't prevent their shields from coming up.
CCP holds the Caldari's hand so this doesn't happen again.
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Logi Bro
Brutor Vanguard
Minmatar Republic
3387
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 17:20:00 -
[174] - Quote
The thing about armor vs shields is lack of high slot choices for armor tankers, while shield tankers have a wide variety of low slot choices.
If you are using all your low slots to be a pure armor tanker, you now have to choose what to put in your highs. You can now choose to boost your melee damage, boost your sidearm/light/heavy weapon damage, increase shields, increase shield recharge, or boost scan range. Lets look closer into that.
Melee damage on a pure armor suit is laughable because of speed.
Unless you are a scout, scan range is also laughable due to poor base scanning precision.
Shield recharge is increased by a percentage, and armor suits have a very low base shield recharge, so you get very little reward from that percentage.
So if you are making a competitive fitting, your only real choice for your highs is weapon mods vs shield extenders. Shield extenders are, I might mention, a very inefficient module since they will regenerate very slowly, and have a very very large delay before they even begin to recharge slowly.
A pure shield tanker, on the other hand, has myriad choices for his spare low slots.
Does he want to make his shields even better? Regulators.
Does he want to improve even more on his speed advantage over armor tankers? Kincats.
Does he want to be a marathon runner and outdistance the armor tankers? Stam mods.
Does he want to hack faster? Code Breakers.
Is he low on CPU/PG? PG upgrades and CPU mods.
Does he want to hybrid tank? Plates, ferroscales, reactives, and reppers.
EWAR? Dampeners and Precision Enhancers.
Those are just off of the top of my head, I may have forgotten one or two. All of the listed are viable for a competitive fitting, save for maybe the precision enhancers if you are using heavy/medium.
The disparity between armor/shields isn't because of shield and armor modules, but because of every module EXCEPT shield and armor mods. Not enough choices for armor tankers.
SP Sinks? Fixed.
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Mexxx Dust-Slayer
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
154
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 18:25:00 -
[175] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:The thing about armor vs shields is lack of high slot choices for armor tankers, while shield tankers have a wide variety of low slot choices.
If you are using all your low slots to be a pure armor tanker, you now have to choose what to put in your highs. You can now choose to boost your melee damage, boost your sidearm/light/heavy weapon damage, increase shields, increase shield recharge, or boost scan range. Lets look closer into that.
Melee damage on a pure armor suit is laughable because of speed.
Unless you are a scout, scan range is also laughable due to poor base scanning precision.
Shield recharge is increased by a percentage, and armor suits have a very low base shield recharge, so you get very little reward from that percentage.
So if you are making a competitive fitting, your only real choice for your highs is weapon mods vs shield extenders. Shield extenders are, I might mention, a very inefficient module since they will regenerate very slowly, and have a very very large delay before they even begin to recharge slowly.
A pure shield tanker, on the other hand, has myriad choices for his spare low slots.
Does he want to make his shields even better? Regulators.
Does he want to improve even more on his speed advantage over armor tankers? Kincats.
Does he want to be a marathon runner and outdistance the armor tankers? Stam mods.
Does he want to hack faster? Code Breakers.
Is he low on CPU/PG? PG upgrades and CPU mods.
Does he want to hybrid tank? Plates, ferroscales, reactives, and reppers.
EWAR? Dampeners and Precision Enhancers.
Those are just off of the top of my head, I may have forgotten one or two. All of the listed are viable for a competitive fitting, save for maybe the precision enhancers if you are using heavy/medium.
The disparity between armor/shields isn't because of shield and armor modules, but because of every module EXCEPT shield and armor mods. Not enough choices for armor tankers.
Precision mods are on high slots.
Shield suits have really tight PG so PG intensive modules like kincats require some sacrifice i.e a shield extender or equipment. Kincats on an armor suit is very effective (Gal/amarr assault speed and gank)
Dual tanking a shield suit is less efficient than pure shield tanking.
And the few choices you claim the armor tankers have are very effective.
Play both sides before displaying your bias claims. There is hardly a disparity, very close to balance. |
Valor Goat
4
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 18:25:00 -
[176] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:The thing about armor vs shields is lack of high slot choices for armor tankers, while shield tankers have a wide variety of low slot choices.
If you are using all your low slots to be a pure armor tanker, you now have to choose what to put in your highs. You can now choose to boost your melee damage, boost your sidearm/light/heavy weapon damage, increase shields, increase shield recharge, or boost scan range. Lets look closer into that.
Melee damage on a pure armor suit is laughable because of speed.
Unless you are a scout, scan range is also laughable due to poor base scanning precision.
Shield recharge is increased by a percentage, and armor suits have a very low base shield recharge, so you get very little reward from that percentage.
So if you are making a competitive fitting, your only real choice for your highs is weapon mods vs shield extenders. Shield extenders are, I might mention, a very inefficient module since they will regenerate very slowly, and have a very very large delay before they even begin to recharge slowly.
A pure shield tanker, on the other hand, has myriad choices for his spare low slots.
Does he want to make his shields even better? Regulators.
Does he want to improve even more on his speed advantage over armor tankers? Kincats.
Does he want to be a marathon runner and outdistance the armor tankers? Stam mods.
Does he want to hack faster? Code Breakers.
Is he low on CPU/PG? PG upgrades and CPU mods.
Does he want to hybrid tank? Plates, ferroscales, reactives, and reppers.
EWAR? Dampeners and Precision Enhancers.
Those are just off of the top of my head, I may have forgotten one or two. All of the listed are viable for a competitive fitting, save for maybe the precision enhancers if you are using heavy/medium.
The disparity between armor/shields isn't because of shield and armor modules, but because of every module EXCEPT shield and armor mods. Not enough choices for armor tankers.
TL;DR
I have a negative IQ
FTFY
1EE7
|
Mexxx Dust-Slayer
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
154
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 18:28:00 -
[177] - Quote
Valor Goat wrote:Logi Bro wrote:The thing about armor vs shields is lack of high slot choices for armor tankers, while shield tankers have a wide variety of low slot choices.
If you are using all your low slots to be a pure armor tanker, you now have to choose what to put in your highs. You can now choose to boost your melee damage, boost your sidearm/light/heavy weapon damage, increase shields, increase shield recharge, or boost scan range. Lets look closer into that.
Melee damage on a pure armor suit is laughable because of speed.
Unless you are a scout, scan range is also laughable due to poor base scanning precision.
Shield recharge is increased by a percentage, and armor suits have a very low base shield recharge, so you get very little reward from that percentage.
So if you are making a competitive fitting, your only real choice for your highs is weapon mods vs shield extenders. Shield extenders are, I might mention, a very inefficient module since they will regenerate very slowly, and have a very very large delay before they even begin to recharge slowly.
A pure shield tanker, on the other hand, has myriad choices for his spare low slots.
Does he want to make his shields even better? Regulators.
Does he want to improve even more on his speed advantage over armor tankers? Kincats.
Does he want to be a marathon runner and outdistance the armor tankers? Stam mods.
Does he want to hack faster? Code Breakers.
Is he low on CPU/PG? PG upgrades and CPU mods.
Does he want to hybrid tank? Plates, ferroscales, reactives, and reppers.
EWAR? Dampeners and Precision Enhancers.
Those are just off of the top of my head, I may have forgotten one or two. All of the listed are viable for a competitive fitting, save for maybe the precision enhancers if you are using heavy/medium.
The disparity between armor/shields isn't because of shield and armor modules, but because of every module EXCEPT shield and armor mods. Not enough choices for armor tankers.
TL;DR
I have a negative IQ FTFY
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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
8656
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 18:34:00 -
[178] - Quote
"Guy gives meaningful feedback and comments regarding topic at hand"
"Reply results in being called stupid and nothing else"
Yep, that's Dust for you.
CCP holds the Caldari's hand so this doesn't happen again.
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pagl1u M
Dead Man's Game
RUST415
978
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 18:36:00 -
[179] - Quote
Mexxx Dust-Slayer wrote:Valor Goat wrote:Logi Bro wrote:The thing about armor vs shields is lack of high slot choices for armor tankers, while shield tankers have a wide variety of low slot choices.
If you are using all your low slots to be a pure armor tanker, you now have to choose what to put in your highs. You can now choose to boost your melee damage, boost your sidearm/light/heavy weapon damage, increase shields, increase shield recharge, or boost scan range. Lets look closer into that.
Melee damage on a pure armor suit is laughable because of speed.
Unless you are a scout, scan range is also laughable due to poor base scanning precision.
Shield recharge is increased by a percentage, and armor suits have a very low base shield recharge, so you get very little reward from that percentage.
So if you are making a competitive fitting, your only real choice for your highs is weapon mods vs shield extenders. Shield extenders are, I might mention, a very inefficient module since they will regenerate very slowly, and have a very very large delay before they even begin to recharge slowly.
A pure shield tanker, on the other hand, has myriad choices for his spare low slots.
Does he want to make his shields even better? Regulators.
Does he want to improve even more on his speed advantage over armor tankers? Kincats.
Does he want to be a marathon runner and outdistance the armor tankers? Stam mods.
Does he want to hack faster? Code Breakers.
Is he low on CPU/PG? PG upgrades and CPU mods.
Does he want to hybrid tank? Plates, ferroscales, reactives, and reppers.
EWAR? Dampeners and Precision Enhancers.
Those are just off of the top of my head, I may have forgotten one or two. All of the listed are viable for a competitive fitting, save for maybe the precision enhancers if you are using heavy/medium.
The disparity between armor/shields isn't because of shield and armor modules, but because of every module EXCEPT shield and armor mods. Not enough choices for armor tankers.
TL;DR
I have a negative IQ FTFY
Wow these 2 guys above me are very mature, Smart and intelligent. They clearly proved their points with clear stats and evidences.
One of the few assaults you'll find in a PC match!
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Mexxx Dust-Slayer
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
154
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 19:13:00 -
[180] - Quote
pagl1u M wrote:Mexxx Dust-Slayer wrote:Valor Goat wrote:Logi Bro wrote:The thing about armor vs shields is lack of high slot choices for armor tankers, while shield tankers have a wide variety of low slot choices.
If you are using all your low slots to be a pure armor tanker, you now have to choose what to put in your highs. You can now choose to boost your melee damage, boost your sidearm/light/heavy weapon damage, increase shields, increase shield recharge, or boost scan range. Lets look closer into that.
Melee damage on a pure armor suit is laughable because of speed.
Unless you are a scout, scan range is also laughable due to poor base scanning precision.
Shield recharge is increased by a percentage, and armor suits have a very low base shield recharge, so you get very little reward from that percentage.
So if you are making a competitive fitting, your only real choice for your highs is weapon mods vs shield extenders. Shield extenders are, I might mention, a very inefficient module since they will regenerate very slowly, and have a very very large delay before they even begin to recharge slowly.
A pure shield tanker, on the other hand, has myriad choices for his spare low slots.
Does he want to make his shields even better? Regulators.
Does he want to improve even more on his speed advantage over armor tankers? Kincats.
Does he want to be a marathon runner and outdistance the armor tankers? Stam mods.
Does he want to hack faster? Code Breakers.
Is he low on CPU/PG? PG upgrades and CPU mods.
Does he want to hybrid tank? Plates, ferroscales, reactives, and reppers.
EWAR? Dampeners and Precision Enhancers.
Those are just off of the top of my head, I may have forgotten one or two. All of the listed are viable for a competitive fitting, save for maybe the precision enhancers if you are using heavy/medium.
The disparity between armor/shields isn't because of shield and armor modules, but because of every module EXCEPT shield and armor mods. Not enough choices for armor tankers.
TL;DR
I have a negative IQ FTFY Wow these 2 guys above me are very mature, Smart and intelligent. They clearly proved their points with clear stats and evidences.
Lol valor goat is obviously a troll alt, I thought it was funny. I already gave my evidence before that.
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Mexxx Dust-Slayer
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
154
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 19:28:00 -
[181] - Quote
Sgt Kirk wrote:"Guy gives meaningful feedback and comments regarding topic at hand"
"Reply results in being called stupid and nothing else"
Yep, that's Dust for you.
If only precisions were on low and range amps were on high, then it would have been meaningful.
But that was stupid though, right? |
True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
15281
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 20:07:00 -
[182] - Quote
Mexxx Dust-Slayer wrote:Sgt Kirk wrote:"Guy gives meaningful feedback and comments regarding topic at hand"
"Reply results in being called stupid and nothing else"
Yep, that's Dust for you. If only precisions were on low and range amps were on high, then it would have been meaningful. But that was stupid though, right?
Why would I as an assault want range amps? Hell why would I as an Amarr player (besides the scout) was range amps in the highs when I could have Shield Re-chargers or Damage Modules.
That solves nothing.
I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this.
Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
8660
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 20:16:00 -
[183] - Quote
True, you of all people. Unless that's a troll because information is incredibly valuable
CCP holds the Caldari's hand so this doesn't happen again.
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Ace Boone
Capital Acquisitions LLC
507
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 20:49:00 -
[184] - Quote
Moochie Cricket wrote:I would love to see a much higher base shield recharge rate or maybe have energizers/rechargers receive a massive buff.
Caldari suits would just run two complex energizers and regulators in their lows and have god-regen.
Cal suits already have good regen, and all scouts have crazy good regen, so a buff a massive buff to energizers would just introduce FOTM-chasers exploiting them. The assault suits need regen buffs, and so do the shield-based heavies. Scouts are good though.
Only loyal to the republic.
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Mexxx Dust-Slayer
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
154
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 21:01:00 -
[185] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Mexxx Dust-Slayer wrote:Sgt Kirk wrote:"Guy gives meaningful feedback and comments regarding topic at hand"
"Reply results in being called stupid and nothing else"
Yep, that's Dust for you. If only precisions were on low and range amps were on high, then it would have been meaningful. But that was stupid though, right? Why would I as an assault want range amps? Hell why would I as an Amarr player (besides the scout) was range amps in the highs when I could have Shield Re-chargers or Damage Modules. That solves nothing.
I'm implying that the guy thinking range amps were in high slots was stupid, I wouldn't want such a change. |
Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
19721
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 21:11:00 -
[186] - Quote
Lloyd Orfay wrote:
The wide majority of infantry suits have:
Poor shield regeneration values
Very long shield delay/depleted delay times
The damage profiles on weaponry(and the trend of ridiculous high alpha damage plus this the stealth abuse issue in this game) make it so that nearly all weapons can have a vicious effectiveness on shields. It wouldn't make sense for a 60 point damage gun to have 30% more power against shielding when shields have the disadvantage of less HP and the gun is already so powerful.
You need to have high shield HP to live, to improve your bad shield delay, and your bad shield recharge value.
Three modules you need to get for basic survival when shield tanking, which is a heavy investment.
Alright, let's talk about these one at a time.
'Poor shield regeneration values' - No, they don't. Shield suits tend to have 30+ HP/s base regen, which can get to massive values with only a couple of mods, seeing as they're percentage based.
'Very long shield delay/depleted delay times' - Depleted, if you're stacking shield extenders and are using no regulators, I can understand, but not normal delays. Shield tankers, while unregulated, typically look at 4-6 seconds delay. With a couple of regulators you can bring that down to 2-3 seconds. That's not much at all. With three modules, you can put a Calassault at 52 HP/s with 2s delay. If you put 3 repair modules on a Gal or Amarr assault you end up with ~30 HP/s. Even with the delay, the shield tanker will comfortably outregen the armour tankers. Additionally, this leaves little room for plating, so the armour assaults end up with similar or lesser HP values.
'Damage profiles' - No weapon has a +30% modifier towards shields. None. The closest you get are laser weapons, which are +20%. The strength of individual weapons is a matter for weapon balance threads rather than shield/armour balance threads.
'You need to have high shield HP to live, to improve your bad shield delay, and your bad shield recharge value'
Recharge values are far from bad, and shield delays are not crippling - especially if you mod either of them rather than stack nothing but shield extenders. Declaring that you need a high shield HP to live is hardly a statement based in fact and would apply equally to everyone, so I'm going to go ahead and treat that statement with the contempt it deserves.
'Three shield module skills vs two armour module skills'
A fair point, although one that has no bearing on the battlefield. Merge the shield regulation and shield recharge skills and this is solved simply, if it's such a crippling problem.
Quote:
With armour on infantry, you have:
Ability to round up a very large sum of HP in armour
No weapon has any extreme damage profile advantages against armour besides explosives, which not many people use in the first place.
Some modules don't follow the more HP layout of armour, and this allows shielding modules to give more HP than them (e.g., reactive plates)
Regardless you can get past this.
Some suits can tank enough armour to match that of a heavy suit, be only a little bit slowed, and once you have 10 HP/s in armour and up you can have better survivability than shielding(because of how armour regeneration being quite close to instant on infantry where shielding you have to wait often over 3 seconds, which is enough time for someone to find and kill you)
Besides this, you hardly need to invest in modules or skills for armour.
'Ability to round up a very large sum of HP in armour'
Correct - if you completely disregard regen. It takes an Amarr assault something in the region of 500 seconds (approximately half a match) to rep up a full tank if they stack nothing but plates. They will also move at a similar speed to a heavy.
'No weapon has any extreme profile advantages and explosives don't count'
Untrue, on both counts.
Projectile weapons have +15% to armour, very close to the +20% lasers have against shields - not at all mirroring the +10% shield damage of the next most shield-damaging damage profile - and explosives are in wide use throughout the game.
Your complaint that shield suits will not regen to the point where they can put up a fight in three seconds is equally true in the case of armour suits. 10 HP/s will not heal you enough in 3 seconds to make you a credible threat to anyone. Stacking armour up to the point of near-heavy HP will slow you significantly - full plate stacking will take you up to a 25% speed penalty.
There is hardly any horrendous imbalance here, as much as you'd like to make there out to be.
The Federation is not a defined region of space, of planets, of mountains, rivers, or woods. It is a vision.
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
15284
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 21:42:00 -
[187] - Quote
Sgt Kirk wrote:True, you of all people. Unless that's a troll because information is incredibly valuable
Well I am in the unusual predicament of having no PG left on my assault due to the Protype Kin Cat and high ScR fitting requirements...... I can either have a pointless passive scan precision enhancer (don't need one I have a PRO active scanner) or I can have fast regening Shields.
Given that I've seen a Psycho DPS Harbinger fit in action there's literally nothing I'd rather fit in my highs that doesn't require PG and allows me to maintain DPS and kiting ability. Plus as Catmerc said I can use shielding as a buffer which I concentrate on kiting the enemy at range and rely on it to recharge rapidly.
Seems to work pretty well at the moment for me given that my current fit has 160 Shields and 559 Armour.
EDIT: It's a shield energizer. Since I don't have much shielding anyway the -4% is negligible anyway.
I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this.
Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
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Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
95
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 22:41:00 -
[188] - Quote
I've said it before and I'll say it again, it's difficult to accurately compare shield and armor (infantry scale) due to the existence of remote repair tools. Until an infantry portable shield booster is added it is difficult to accurately compare the two defensive buffers on anything other than a pure 1v1 scale (which is almost never the case in a team game). You have to consider force multipliers and possible gameplay styles when considering game balance.
That being said, I would rather shields be switched over to work as close to they work space-side as possible (including regenerating while under fire while changing current regeneration rates) Passive Shield Tanking Equations
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
I believe all these roles are support for front line soldiers.
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Booby Tuesdays
Tuesdays With Boobies
1035
|
Posted - 2014.12.02 01:58:00 -
[189] - Quote
I'm waaaay late to this thread Dubbs, but what if shields were always repping, just like armor is? Isn't that the way it used to be in Chrome? I don't remember and I've been drinking... Remove the delay while under fire, but increase the delay when depleted. This would make regulators even more useful. Tweak the amount regenerated as well, since the Cal Scout would be even more OP. Nothing crazy, like 40 instead of 50HP/s? Regens higher than armor, but you can't get anywhere near the amount of shields as armor.
The shield delay on armor tanking suits is nowhere near high enough, imho. They get the best of both worlds with a few second delay for their shields, as well as a high, always on, armor regen. Plus their native weapons are made for wrecking shields.
Shoot, Complex Ferro give more HP, AND cost less CPU and Grid than a Complex Extender.
Move armor reps to highs?
Remove shield delay?
Increase depleted shield delay?
I'm definitely in the camp of armor based suits are at an advantage, but shields are really close to being equal. A few small tweaks could level the playing field.
Half-Assed Forum Warrior / Half-Decent Commando / Damn Good Logi
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Ydubbs81
Ahrendee Mercenaries
5
|
Posted - 2014.12.02 04:53:00 -
[190] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Ydubbs81 wrote:True Adamance wrote:Ydubbs81 wrote:
are you taking into the account that armor doesn't have a delay while the shield suit has to wait seconds before they start to regen? Any one of my guns reloads faster than it would take my shields to start to regen
Yes. 5 seconds. Catmerc's fit has a delay of 2 seconds and 52.65 rep/sec Mine has constant passive of 20 rep/sec. Assuming we stop firing at the same time and have five seconds to regen and reload. 20* 5 = 100 armour reps over 5 seconds (5 seconds - 2 second delay) = 3 seconds @ 52.65 rep/sec 52.65* 3 = 157.95 In this instance I have not regenerated any of my shielding and am engaging you (by in this instance as stated by Meeko approaching your position) with X EHP + my 100 vs you who is now in a superior positions waiting for my arrival. In 3 more seconds you will have regenerated 315.9 shielding vs my 160 armour. That's great if you have 5 seconds to regen. Because if we're gunning each other in a cqc situation, you won' t have 5 secs to regen. And see, noone can argue that shields regen faster than armor. Noone is denying that....but we can throw some real scenarios into the mix. Like, if a gal assault is sitting in a triage nanohive during this encounter. This is one of my points...all of the different advantages that armor tanking has against shields. There is nothing that a shield tanker can do or equip to have regen during damage. It honestly seems to me like you are pick out ever fault Shielding has and not acknowledging its strengths while at the same time saying "this is how I want to play......but I don't want to do it with armour." Passive regen means **** all under concentrated fire its more often than not less than one bullet the only time passive armour repping does matter is when you get several seconds of it, This evening I've been running my Regen/Speed Amarr suit and honestly there is rarely a time I cannot find 5 seconds to regenerate my HP, would be easier if I was doing this with shields/
I never said that shield tanking doesn't have strengths.....I'm just saying that armor tanking has more. It seems to me that you just want to acknowledge what shields are good at but not that armor tanking has more benefits.
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Ydubbs81
Ahrendee Mercenaries
5
|
Posted - 2014.12.02 04:53:00 -
[191] - Quote
Booby Tuesdays wrote:I'm waaaay late to this thread Dubbs, but what if shields were always repping, just like armor is? Isn't that the way it used to be in Chrome? I don't remember and I've been drinking... Remove the delay while under fire, but increase the delay when depleted. This would make regulators even more useful. Tweak the amount regenerated as well, since the Cal Scout would be even more OP. Nothing crazy, like 40 instead of 50HP/s? Regens higher than armor, but you can't get anywhere near the amount of shields as armor. The shield delay on armor tanking suits is nowhere near high enough, imho. They get the best of both worlds with a few second delay for their shields, as well as a high, always on, armor regen. Plus their native weapons are made for wrecking shields. Shoot, Complex Ferro give more HP, AND cost less CPU and Grid than a Complex Extender. Move armor reps to highs? Remove shield delay? Increase depleted shield delay? I'm definitely in the camp of armor based suits are at an advantage, but shields are really close to being equal. A few small tweaks could level the playing field.
that was a bug Booby...I don't think that CCP intended on shields to rep through damage. |
Ydubbs81
Ahrendee Mercenaries
5
|
Posted - 2014.12.02 04:59:00 -
[192] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:The thing about armor vs shields is lack of high slot choices for armor tankers, while shield tankers have a wide variety of low slot choices.
If you are using all your low slots to be a pure armor tanker, you now have to choose what to put in your highs. You can now choose to boost your melee damage, boost your sidearm/light/heavy weapon damage, increase shields, increase shield recharge, or boost scan range. Lets look closer into that.
Melee damage on a pure armor suit is laughable because of speed.
Unless you are a scout, scan range is also laughable due to poor base scanning precision.
Shield recharge is increased by a percentage, and armor suits have a very low base shield recharge, so you get very little reward from that percentage.
So if you are making a competitive fitting, your only real choice for your highs is weapon mods vs shield extenders. Shield extenders are, I might mention, a very inefficient module since they will regenerate very slowly, and have a very very large delay before they even begin to recharge slowly.
A pure shield tanker, on the other hand, has myriad choices for his spare low slots.
Does he want to make his shields even better? Regulators.
Does he want to improve even more on his speed advantage over armor tankers? Kincats.
Does he want to be a marathon runner and outdistance the armor tankers? Stam mods.
Does he want to hack faster? Code Breakers.
Is he low on CPU/PG? PG upgrades and CPU mods.
Does he want to hybrid tank? Plates, ferroscales, reactives, and reppers.
EWAR? Dampeners and Precision Enhancers.
Those are just off of the top of my head, I may have forgotten one or two. All of the listed are viable for a competitive fitting, save for maybe the precision enhancers if you are using heavy/medium.
The disparity between armor/shields isn't because of shield and armor modules, but because of every module EXCEPT shield and armor mods. Not enough choices for armor tankers.
Some of those benefits are shared with armor tanking. Dual tank, precision enhancing, etc.
Some of those benefits are good for support roles like speed hacking, mararthon running, etc. The biggest benefit that armor has to shield is being able to stack either shield hp or damage mods with no sacrifice to their main hp. For a shield suit, in order to use damage mods, you sacrifice shield. But for an armor tanker, you can stack damage mods (which ultimately helps you in gun fights) and stack on your armor hp. Remember the era of the slayer logi? |
Vesta Opalus
Bloodline Rebellion
Capital Punishment.
210
|
Posted - 2014.12.02 06:59:00 -
[193] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
Our base regen is 30 and the more we use the more the delay for regen is penalized.
But it isn't about just the numbers on the suit. I'm talking about effectiveness. You can stack 4 ferroscales and a repper on a gal assault with a triage nanohive AND use damage mods without sacrificing the majority of where your health comes from. Plus, armor is the second line of defense, so you also have shield regen to help protect you as well.
30hp/s is exceptionally powerful, we need 3 module slots to get that. You get an extra 20hp/s from one module, and have modules to cut that delay to 2-3 seconds. That's not even mentioning Cal Scouts and their built in 50hp/s and low delays lol :) everyone screams regen when it comes to shield dropsuits because that's the only advantage it seems to have. I've already named at least 2 or 3 advantages to armor tanking in this thread.
Regen isnt even an advantage for shield commando/assaults, the regen on them is so slow you have to fit 2+ regulators to get it down to a decent level, doable for the assaults but expensive for min comm and downright impossible for cal comm, and the regen on the scout is stupidly high/low respectively in both hp/s and delay. The Caldari sentinel has very low delays but I think is more balanced given the nature of the suit. On top of that, you generally have little to no armor regen on the shield tankers, so you end up with a big armor pool you can only really dip into once in a long while.
This wouldnt be a huge deal if you could play a skirmishing standoff style game in Dust consistently, but since objective play is almost always CQC work and the current mechanics and prevalence of scouts means you are basically in danger of being 2 shotted and/or surprise attacked at all times, skirmish play doesnt really work in any meaningful way.
Add to this the scrambler rifle being not just good against but downright overpowered against straight shield tanks, and after the armor repper buff and given that there still are no shield regen repair tools or nanohives, the armor suits take the edge these days simply because of how the game tends to play out.
I dont think its a huge imbalance though, and a few small tweaks could even the playing field entirely.
Tweaks I would suggest:
Tighten up scrambler rifle damage profile so it isnt overpowering against shield users, give it a max shots/sec. similar to the duvolle tactical. As long as this rifle can strip any quantity of shields in the game in half a second of furious clicking, shield tanking is going to be suicidal.
I would make assault and commando delays a couple seconds lower, and make the cal scout one second higher, with maybe 30 or 40 shield regen/s base.
Bigger tweaks:
Some equipment to enhance or work with shields.
More open area points that arent CQC hotspots.
Fix ******* scouts so there is a real counter to them, but thats just my own little axe I grind, ignore me. ;d |
Booby Tuesdays
Tuesdays With Boobies
1036
|
Posted - 2014.12.02 07:08:00 -
[194] - Quote
Ydubbs81 wrote:Booby Tuesdays wrote:I'm waaaay late to this thread Dubbs, but what if shields were always repping, just like armor is? Isn't that the way it used to be in Chrome? I don't remember and I've been drinking... Remove the delay while under fire, but increase the delay when depleted. This would make regulators even more useful. Tweak the amount regenerated as well, since the Cal Scout would be even more OP. Nothing crazy, like 40 instead of 50HP/s? Regens higher than armor, but you can't get anywhere near the amount of shields as armor. The shield delay on armor tanking suits is nowhere near high enough, imho. They get the best of both worlds with a few second delay for their shields, as well as a high, always on, armor regen. Plus their native weapons are made for wrecking shields. Shoot, Complex Ferro give more HP, AND cost less CPU and Grid than a Complex Extender. Move armor reps to highs? Remove shield delay? Increase depleted shield delay? I'm definitely in the camp of armor based suits are at an advantage, but shields are really close to being equal. A few small tweaks could level the playing field. that was a bug Booby...I don't think that CCP intended on shields to rep through damage.
I kinda figured, but what if it went back to that? Do you think we would we be closer to parity?
Half-Assed Forum Warrior / Half-Decent Commando / Damn Good Logi
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
15314
|
Posted - 2014.12.02 07:15:00 -
[195] - Quote
Ydubbs81 wrote:True Adamance wrote:Ydubbs81 wrote:True Adamance wrote:Ydubbs81 wrote:
are you taking into the account that armor doesn't have a delay while the shield suit has to wait seconds before they start to regen? Any one of my guns reloads faster than it would take my shields to start to regen
Yes. 5 seconds. Catmerc's fit has a delay of 2 seconds and 52.65 rep/sec Mine has constant passive of 20 rep/sec. Assuming we stop firing at the same time and have five seconds to regen and reload. 20* 5 = 100 armour reps over 5 seconds (5 seconds - 2 second delay) = 3 seconds @ 52.65 rep/sec 52.65* 3 = 157.95 In this instance I have not regenerated any of my shielding and am engaging you (by in this instance as stated by Meeko approaching your position) with X EHP + my 100 vs you who is now in a superior positions waiting for my arrival. In 3 more seconds you will have regenerated 315.9 shielding vs my 160 armour. That's great if you have 5 seconds to regen. Because if we're gunning each other in a cqc situation, you won' t have 5 secs to regen. And see, noone can argue that shields regen faster than armor. Noone is denying that....but we can throw some real scenarios into the mix. Like, if a gal assault is sitting in a triage nanohive during this encounter. This is one of my points...all of the different advantages that armor tanking has against shields. There is nothing that a shield tanker can do or equip to have regen during damage. It honestly seems to me like you are pick out ever fault Shielding has and not acknowledging its strengths while at the same time saying "this is how I want to play......but I don't want to do it with armour." Passive regen means **** all under concentrated fire its more often than not less than one bullet the only time passive armour repping does matter is when you get several seconds of it, This evening I've been running my Regen/Speed Amarr suit and honestly there is rarely a time I cannot find 5 seconds to regenerate my HP, would be easier if I was doing this with shields/ I never said that shield tanking doesn't have strengths.....I'm just saying that armor tanking has more. It seems to me that you just want to acknowledge what shields are good at but not that armor tanking has more benefits.
Besides it's natural resist profile vs short range high DPS weapons like the SMG, Combat Rifle, and(not fitting into the DPS category) Mass Driver is a very nice set of benefits in my mind (this coming from an armour tanker), coupled with natural speed, and utility lows all seem like perfectly good reasons to shield tank to me.
Not going to suggest Shield suits don't need transporters, or some kind of repping Hive but they have enough benefits in my mind to be worth considering.
Nor am I saying I would Shield Tank unless that was the Amarrian way. PIE frowns on the use of any dropsuit that is not Amarrian which I'm cool with.
I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this.
Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
19745
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Posted - 2014.12.02 07:21:00 -
[196] - Quote
Booby Tuesdays wrote:
The shield delay on armor tanking suits is nowhere near high enough, imho. They get the best of both worlds with a few second delay for their shields, as well as a high, always on, armor regen. Plus their native weapons are made for wrecking shields.
Equally, the native weapons on shield dropsuits tend to be made for wrecking armour.
Armour suits have lower shield regen values, much like shield suits have lowered armour regen values. They're never going to catch up to a shield suit's regen unless they fit stupidly, although the reverse is not true. 20 HP/s is not particularly useful when it applies to 150 HP.
Quote:
Shoot, Complex Ferro give more HP, AND cost less CPU and Grid than a Complex Extender.
Why are people so obsessed with this comparison?
A complex extender has massive native regen, a complex ferro does not. That is why the ferro gives more HP. A full extender fit is viable, a full ferro fit is not, because it will take hundreds of seconds to regen.
Quote:
Move armor reps to highs?
Remove shield delay?
Increase depleted shield delay?
Moving armour reps to highs immediately buffs armour tanking absolutely massively and I can't see how that can possibly be a good idea. You would be able to have 1000 armour HP Amarr assaults with 30 HP/s with that - that is insane and far from balanced. That movement is not necessary at all.
Removing shield delay ends up being silly because when comparing fittings with similar numbers of tank modules they're already quite balanced, and that would break that immediately. For example, a Calassault can reach 600 shields with 52 HP/s and 2s shield regen delay - a Galassault at 600 armour will have 30 HP/s without a delay (ignoring the encumbering effect of plates). What will happen to that if there is no regen delay?
Increasing depleted delay... Why?
Quote:I'm definitely in the camp of armor based suits are at an advantage, but shields are really close to being equal. A few small tweaks could level the playing field.
I am dubious. Especially as these proposed tweaks are far from small.
The Federation is not a defined region of space, of planets, of mountains, rivers, or woods. It is a vision.
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Vesta Opalus
Bloodline Rebellion
Capital Punishment.
211
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Posted - 2014.12.02 14:34:00 -
[197] - Quote
Ace Boone wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:True Adamance wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
I would like to start (or revisit) this conversation to see where the community's head is at as far as which is the more effective choice. I've had arguments with Cat Merc because he feels that armor tanking gets the short end of the stick and I can't believe how he could think that. Shield suits, tanks, ADS are at a disadvantage to armor suits in so many ways. And I just read a thread about shields vs armor in the feedback section and I want to open up the dialogue on this.
I'll start by saying I think that armor tanking beats out shield tanking, generally, more times than not. If you shield tank as opposed to armor or dual tank then you have to play the scared role. Even as a cal heavy....you are subject to flux grenades and +20% scrambler rifle (most OP rifle in the game) ammunition. Shields are your first line of defense. If your first line is your major line of defense and it is gone rapidly, you are strung out of luck. If you armor tank, and you get surprised and lose your shields to a flux or a scrambler rifle...you still have time to react and enough health to defend yourself.
I can really go further but I'd like to open up the floor for discussion...
Nope the Shield HAV is statistically better than the Armour HAV. Better fitting capacity (evinced by the "EHP ***** Sica" which can fit a whole proto line up and field 9K EHP vs Explosive AV) Better tracking and mobility optiions that reduce the penalties of slow tracking turrets Comprable and better EHP values Better stand and deliver capacity Better passive regen capacity (168 per second without even fitting a module after 4 seconds) Access to fitting modules without sacrificing racial tank all of that sounds good but can a shield rail or blaster beat a maddy blaster 1v1? Even a maddy rail has advantages. I don't know much about the fitting requirements of a maddy but most of the health is in the low slots and they can still have dmg mods without sacrificing health. I agree that Maddys are better in combat, however, it is very hard to actually fit damage mods on a Madrugar without completely sacrificing most of your PG/CPU. That's why a fuel injector is always the go-to module.
The fuel injector is the go-to module because its stupidly hard to consistently hit a tank with one active at close range if they are moving perpendicular-ish to you and you are trying to use a railgun turret/forge gun/missile turrets |
TYCHUS MAXWELL
The Fun Police
629
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Posted - 2014.12.02 15:19:00 -
[198] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Booby Tuesdays wrote:
The shield delay on armor tanking suits is nowhere near high enough, imho. They get the best of both worlds with a few second delay for their shields, as well as a high, always on, armor regen. Plus their native weapons are made for wrecking shields.
Equally, the native weapons on shield dropsuits tend to be made for wrecking armour. Armour suits have lower shield regen values, much like shield suits have lowered armour regen values. They're never going to catch up to a shield suit's regen unless they fit stupidly, although the reverse is not true. 20 HP/s is not particularly useful when it applies to 150 HP. Quote:
Shoot, Complex Ferro give more HP, AND cost less CPU and Grid than a Complex Extender.
Why are people so obsessed with this comparison? A complex extender has massive native regen, a complex ferro does not. That is why the ferro gives more HP. A full extender fit is viable, a full ferro fit is not, because it will take hundreds of seconds to regen. Quote:
Move armor reps to highs?
Remove shield delay?
Increase depleted shield delay?
Moving armour reps to highs immediately buffs armour tanking absolutely massively and I can't see how that can possibly be a good idea. You would be able to have 1000 armour HP Amarr assaults with 30 HP/s with that - that is insane and far from balanced. That movement is not necessary at all. Removing shield delay ends up being silly because when comparing fittings with similar numbers of tank modules they're already quite balanced, and that would break that immediately. For example, a Calassault can reach 600 shields with 52 HP/s and 2s shield regen delay - a Galassault at 600 armour will have 30 HP/s without a delay (ignoring the encumbering effect of plates). What will happen to that if there is no regen delay? Increasing depleted delay... Why? Quote:I'm definitely in the camp of armor based suits are at an advantage, but shields are really close to being equal. A few small tweaks could level the playing field. I am dubious. Especially as these proposed tweaks are far from small.
Just Curious Arkena... do you have Caldari suits other than the scout? Because delays and damage resets make a HUGE difference on effectiveness when you leave the pen and paper and actually use them in the field.
I stand by my earlier statements. Shield tanking = best for pubstomping and Armor tanking = best for holding on. In my opinion, I'd rather have a suit that does okay pubstomping and excels in tough battles as opposed to the opposite. And the majority of the player base especially from what I've seen of the vets that still hang around and solo play seem to agree (Caldari and Matari shield tanks are incredibly rare) Cat merc doesn't count, I've never seen Cat merc do well without Regynum and other proto pub stompers hanging in a 10 meter formation.
I exclude Caldari scouts when I ask because scouts in general are a whole different discussion when it comes to "tank" given their speed and cloaking/Ewar.
Edit: I realize I sound personal, but I really just mean I don't like how people will run around in full proto squads and then base their success around balance. I'm not saying people shouldn't squad up, but squads skew what is effective and what isn't and I maintain that shield tanking on medium and heavy suits is garbage for solo. Players can easily overwhelm you before your shields recharge if you don't have several other proto suits covering you. Its okay on scouts only because scouts are currently the easiest solo suits. |
Vesta Opalus
Bloodline Rebellion
Capital Punishment.
212
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Posted - 2014.12.02 18:27:00 -
[199] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:
Besides it's natural resist profile vs short range high DPS weapons like the SMG, Combat Rifle, and(not fitting into the DPS category) Mass Driver is a very nice set of benefits in my mind (this coming from an armour tanker), coupled with natural speed, and utility lows all seem like perfectly good reasons to shield tank to me.
Just addressing your point about resistances on shield vs. armor: I dont think shields win that arguement, sure the explosive resistance is pretty nice, but as for resisting the SMG and combat rifle, shields are more vulnerable to shotguns and plasma rifles which are higher dps than either of those, add to that the damage profile of the scrambler rifle being pretty damn OP right now at longer ranges and what you have is the shield tankers being pretty vulnerable at all ranges. More so than armor tankers and with less buffer to boot. |
Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
3505
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Posted - 2014.12.04 04:43:00 -
[200] - Quote
Vesta Opalus wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
Our base regen is 30 and the more we use the more the delay for regen is penalized.
But it isn't about just the numbers on the suit. I'm talking about effectiveness. You can stack 4 ferroscales and a repper on a gal assault with a triage nanohive AND use damage mods without sacrificing the majority of where your health comes from. Plus, armor is the second line of defense, so you also have shield regen to help protect you as well.
30hp/s is exceptionally powerful, we need 3 module slots to get that. You get an extra 20hp/s from one module, and have modules to cut that delay to 2-3 seconds. That's not even mentioning Cal Scouts and their built in 50hp/s and low delays lol :) everyone screams regen when it comes to shield dropsuits because that's the only advantage it seems to have. I've already named at least 2 or 3 advantages to armor tanking in this thread. Regen isnt even an advantage for shield commando/assaults, the regen on them is so slow you have to fit 2+ regulators to get it down to a decent level, doable for the assaults but expensive for min comm and downright impossible for cal comm, and the regen on the scout is stupidly high/low respectively in both hp/s and delay. The Caldari sentinel has very low delays but I think is more balanced given the nature of the suit. On top of that, you generally have little to no armor regen on the shield tankers, so you end up with a big armor pool you can only really dip into once in a long while. This wouldnt be a huge deal if you could play a skirmishing standoff style game in Dust consistently, but since objective play is almost always CQC work and the current mechanics and prevalence of scouts means you are basically in danger of being 2 shotted and/or surprise attacked at all times, skirmish play doesnt really work in any meaningful way. Add to this the scrambler rifle being not just good against but downright overpowered against straight shield tanks, and after the armor repper buff and given that there still are no shield regen repair tools or nanohives, the armor suits take the edge these days simply because of how the game tends to play out. I dont think its a huge imbalance though, and a few small tweaks could even the playing field entirely. Tweaks I would suggest: Tighten up scrambler rifle damage profile so it isnt overpowering against shield users, give it a max shots/sec. similar to the duvolle tactical. As long as this rifle can strip any quantity of shields in the game in half a second of furious clicking, shield tanking is going to be suicidal. I would make assault and commando delays a couple seconds lower, and make the cal scout one second higher, with maybe 30 or 40 shield regen/s base. Bigger tweaks: Some equipment to enhance or work with shields. More open area points that arent CQC hotspots. Fix ******* scouts so there is a real counter to them, but thats just my own little axe I grind, ignore me. ;d
some good points here..especially about objective play is usually CQC work if you're tryign to win
> Check RND out here
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
3505
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Posted - 2014.12.04 04:49:00 -
[201] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Ydubbs81 wrote:
I never said that shield tanking doesn't have strengths.....I'm just saying that armor tanking has more. It seems to me that you just want to acknowledge what shields are good at but not that armor tanking has more benefits.
Besides it's natural resist profile vs short range high DPS weapons like the SMG, Combat Rifle, and(not fitting into the DPS category) Mass Driver is a very nice set of benefits in my mind (this coming from an armour tanker), coupled with natural speed, and utility lows all seem like perfectly good reasons to shield tank to me. Not going to suggest Shield suits don't need transporters, or some kind of repping Hive but they have enough benefits in my mind to be worth considering. Nor am I saying I would Shield Tank unless that was the Amarrian way. PIE frowns on the use of any dropsuit that is not Amarrian which I'm cool with.
High DPS weapons? Armor tanking has the resistance to the SCR (Viziam is nasty with it's +20% damage to shield), lasers, and the Assault Rifle. Just for the SCR and the AR alone are good enough reasons to armor tank. All of the low slots that shield tankers get just helps with support. I'd trade all of those low slots for damage mods to be there.
> Check RND out here
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Meeko Fent
Kirkinen Risk Control
Caldari State
2189
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Posted - 2014.12.04 04:56:00 -
[202] - Quote
HI AGAIN!
I'd just like to drop this note of shield v armor, relating to frontline assaults/sents.
Shield suits are more restricted in fittings. They have to use both their high and lows to get a fitting that has respectable HP, and a very strong regen. Since shield extenders extend the recharge delay, I then would either have weaker regen stats, or lose a low to a regul to compensate. Armor, since all their mods are in the lows, and their mods don't wound their own stats (Armor plate don't make armor reppers cost more to fit!), they have their highs open to whatever you want to fit.
Armor and Shield is in a very nice place right now, but it's worth bring up that fact.
I Live for Tears
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
15448
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Posted - 2014.12.04 08:43:00 -
[203] - Quote
Meeko Fent wrote:HI AGAIN!
I'd just like to drop this note of shield v armor, relating to frontline assaults/sents.
Shield suits are more restricted in fittings. They have to use both their high and lows to get a fitting that has respectable HP, and a very strong regen. Since shield extenders extend the recharge delay, I then would either have weaker regen stats, or lose a low to a regul to compensate. Armor, since all their mods are in the lows, and their mods don't wound their own stats (Armor plate don't make armor reppers cost more to fit!), they have their highs open to whatever you want to fit.
Armor and Shield is in a very nice place right now, but it's worth bring up that fact.
But at the same time don't have a passive regen and must create their regen using module slots. Moreover suffer mobility penalties which in their own right are more than crippling enough.
*"He spoke, and we made it so all worlds were one, all peoples were one, all faiths, creeds, and nationalities were one.
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Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
98
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Posted - 2014.12.04 08:59:00 -
[204] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:HI AGAIN!
I'd just like to drop this note of shield v armor, relating to frontline assaults/sents.
Shield suits are more restricted in fittings. They have to use both their high and lows to get a fitting that has respectable HP, and a very strong regen. Since shield extenders extend the recharge delay, I then would either have weaker regen stats, or lose a low to a regul to compensate. Armor, since all their mods are in the lows, and their mods don't wound their own stats (Armor plate don't make armor reppers cost more to fit!), they have their highs open to whatever you want to fit.
Armor and Shield is in a very nice place right now, but it's worth bring up that fact. But at the same time don't have a passive regen and must create their regen using module slots. Moreover suffer mobility penalties which in their own right are more than crippling enough.
Don't all suits have passive regen built in now? (I know the values are small, but they're not non-existant...they won't make or break a firefight, but they're something). Also, lack of remote shield booster (or shield boosting hives for that matter)...don't ignore force multipliers
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
I believe all these roles are support for front line soldiers.
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
3507
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Posted - 2014.12.04 11:37:00 -
[205] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:HI AGAIN!
I'd just like to drop this note of shield v armor, relating to frontline assaults/sents.
Shield suits are more restricted in fittings. They have to use both their high and lows to get a fitting that has respectable HP, and a very strong regen. Since shield extenders extend the recharge delay, I then would either have weaker regen stats, or lose a low to a regul to compensate. Armor, since all their mods are in the lows, and their mods don't wound their own stats (Armor plate don't make armor reppers cost more to fit!), they have their highs open to whatever you want to fit.
Armor and Shield is in a very nice place right now, but it's worth bring up that fact. But at the same time don't have a passive regen and must create their regen using module slots. Moreover suffer mobility penalties which in their own right are more than crippling enough.
Armor tanked-infantry can no longer complain about mobility penalties when the ferroscale plate yields more hp than shield extenders.
> Check RND out here
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RevoItZ
Red Star.
EoN.
408
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Posted - 2014.12.04 11:49:00 -
[206] - Quote
Why not just tank both http://imgur.com/HJ09NK4 and own the kitten out of people while walking at a turtles pace......
Winner of EU Prime League Tournament
Winner of EU Squad Cup
RIP MAG
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Apothecary Za'ki
Biomass Positive
2265
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Posted - 2014.12.04 11:57:00 -
[207] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
I would like to start (or revisit) this conversation to see where the community's head is at as far as which is the more effective choice. I've had arguments with Cat Merc because he feels that armor tanking gets the short end of the stick and I can't believe how he could think that. Shield suits, tanks, ADS are at a disadvantage to armor suits in so many ways. And I just read a thread about shields vs armor in the feedback section and I want to open up the dialogue on this.
I'll start by saying I think that armor tanking beats out shield tanking, generally, more times than not. If you shield tank as opposed to armor or dual tank then you have to play the scared role. Even as a cal heavy....you are subject to flux grenades and +20% scrambler rifle (most OP rifle in the game) ammunition. Shields are your first line of defense. If your first line is your major line of defense and it is gone rapidly, you are strung out of luck. If you armor tank, and you get surprised and lose your shields to a flux or a scrambler rifle...you still have time to react and enough health to defend yourself.
I can really go further but I'd like to open up the floor for discussion...
shield tanking sucks and willl die when rattatti introduces speed nerfs to shield moduals meaning bye bye shield tankers! and it will become Armor514 or more likly Amarr514.. since armor will be king
#[[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 2 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]]
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
3507
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Posted - 2014.12.04 12:10:00 -
[208] - Quote
And people are talking about the ability to lose low slots. Which mod would you rather be able to stack alongside your hp mods? Dmg mods or codebreakers, damps, range amps, any regulator, etc??
I just fitted a gal assault on protofits and realized that you could fit more stuff on a gal assault suit than a cal or minmatar. You only have 3 highs, so you won't be using a lot of cpu and you get tons more pg. Not to mention a shield extender is 54/11 as opposed to reactives and ferroscales that are 23/8 (pg/cpu)...favoritism much??
> Check RND out here
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Vesta Opalus
Bloodline Rebellion
Capital Punishment.
221
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Posted - 2014.12.04 16:56:00 -
[209] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:And people are talking about the ability to lose low slots. Which mod would you rather be able to stack alongside your hp mods? Dmg mods or codebreakers, damps, range amps, any regulator, etc??
I just fitted a gal assault on protofits and realized that you could fit more stuff on a gal assault suit than a cal or minmatar. You only have 3 highs, so you won't be using a lot of cpu and you get tons more pg. Not to mention a shield extender is 54/11 as opposed to reactives and ferroscales that are 23/8 (pg/cpu)...favoritism much??
I don't think favoritism is the right word to use, lets just say there are some imbalances in shield v. armor tanking as the game exists now and work from there
Apothecary Za'ki wrote:
shield tanking sucks and willl die when rattatti introduces speed nerfs to shield moduals meaning bye bye shield tankers! and it will become Armor514 or more likly Amarr514.. since armor will be king
I think this is actually a really good point, but maybe not exactly correct: I think once the hp modules speed nerf goes live, hp stacking across the board will become less desirable, which is an indirect buff to scrambler rifles since they have a much better time the lower enemy hp gets, which becomes a disproportionate nerf to shield tankers since more scrambler rifles will be used against even less shield hp since people will be influenced to stack less shields.
Things to consider. |
DEATH THE KlD
Harem. King
69
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Posted - 2014.12.04 17:23:00 -
[210] - Quote
Ace Boone wrote:That's because stacking shields can give you similar eHP to someone that stacks armor, with a lot more speed.
Armor can be repped you really have no need for movement now do you? Now of course if you are worried about speed then use the right armor instead. Seriously it's not hard. |
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Meeko Fent
Kirkinen Risk Control
Caldari State
2193
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Posted - 2014.12.05 02:20:00 -
[211] - Quote
Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:True Adamance wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:HI AGAIN!
I'd just like to drop this note of shield v armor, relating to frontline assaults/sents.
Shield suits are more restricted in fittings. They have to use both their high and lows to get a fitting that has respectable HP, and a very strong regen. Since shield extenders extend the recharge delay, I then would either have weaker regen stats, or lose a low to a regul to compensate. Armor, since all their mods are in the lows, and their mods don't wound their own stats (Armor plate don't make armor reppers cost more to fit!), they have their highs open to whatever you want to fit.
Armor and Shield is in a very nice place right now, but it's worth bring up that fact. But at the same time don't have a passive regen and must create their regen using module slots. Moreover suffer mobility penalties which in their own right are more than crippling enough. Don't all suits have passive regen built in now? (I know the values are small, but they're not non-existant...they won't make or break a firefight, but they're something). Also, lack of remote shield booster (or shield boosting hives for that matter)...don't ignore force multipliers
Yeah...
I think gal get like 3 HP/a for free. I know my CalSalt has 1 HP/s Base.
I Live for Tears
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