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True Adamance
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Posted - 2014.12.01 00:32:00 -
[1] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
I would like to start (or revisit) this conversation to see where the community's head is at as far as which is the more effective choice. I've had arguments with Cat Merc because he feels that armor tanking gets the short end of the stick and I can't believe how he could think that. Shield suits, tanks, ADS are at a disadvantage to armor suits in so many ways. And I just read a thread about shields vs armor in the feedback section and I want to open up the dialogue on this.
I'll start by saying I think that armor tanking beats out shield tanking, generally, more times than not. If you shield tank as opposed to armor or dual tank then you have to play the scared role. Even as a cal heavy....you are subject to flux grenades and +20% scrambler rifle (most OP rifle in the game) ammunition. Shields are your first line of defense. If your first line is your major line of defense and it is gone rapidly, you are strung out of luck. If you armor tank, and you get surprised and lose your shields to a flux or a scrambler rifle...you still have time to react and enough health to defend yourself.
I can really go further but I'd like to open up the floor for discussion...
Nope the Shield HAV is statistically better than the Armour HAV.
I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this.
Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
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True Adamance
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Posted - 2014.12.01 00:39:00 -
[2] - Quote
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:Ace Boone wrote:That's because stacking shields can give you similar eHP to someone that stacks armor, with a lot more speed.
Strafe speed is relatively unaffected by armor plates, unless they are brick tanked, and especially not if they are using ferroscales. Shield suits get kin cats and profile dampeners in the off tank, while armor tankers get damage mods and precision enhancers. Shield vehicles are generally better than armor, simply because of the AV weapons currently available to people in the game, as well as maneuverability of the vehicles themselves.
I do also want to point out the utility modules that as an armour tanker I value most the Hack Module and Kin Cats.......are all lows.
Would sacrifice damage modules to lows (where they should be) for those utilities.
I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this.
Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
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True Adamance
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Posted - 2014.12.01 00:47:00 -
[3] - Quote
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:True Adamance wrote:Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:Ace Boone wrote:That's because stacking shields can give you similar eHP to someone that stacks armor, with a lot more speed.
Strafe speed is relatively unaffected by armor plates, unless they are brick tanked, and especially not if they are using ferroscales. Shield suits get kin cats and profile dampeners in the off tank, while armor tankers get damage mods and precision enhancers. Shield vehicles are generally better than armor, simply because of the AV weapons currently available to people in the game, as well as maneuverability of the vehicles themselves. I do also want to point out the utility modules that as an armour tanker I value most the Hack Module and Kin Cats.......are all lows. Would sacrifice damage modules to lows (where they should be) for those utilities. Kincats should stay as lows. Myofibs should give a slight speed bonus and hack mods should be moved to highs.
It's just an opinion anyway.
I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this.
Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
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True Adamance
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Posted - 2014.12.01 01:11:00 -
[4] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:True Adamance wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
I would like to start (or revisit) this conversation to see where the community's head is at as far as which is the more effective choice. I've had arguments with Cat Merc because he feels that armor tanking gets the short end of the stick and I can't believe how he could think that. Shield suits, tanks, ADS are at a disadvantage to armor suits in so many ways. And I just read a thread about shields vs armor in the feedback section and I want to open up the dialogue on this.
I'll start by saying I think that armor tanking beats out shield tanking, generally, more times than not. If you shield tank as opposed to armor or dual tank then you have to play the scared role. Even as a cal heavy....you are subject to flux grenades and +20% scrambler rifle (most OP rifle in the game) ammunition. Shields are your first line of defense. If your first line is your major line of defense and it is gone rapidly, you are strung out of luck. If you armor tank, and you get surprised and lose your shields to a flux or a scrambler rifle...you still have time to react and enough health to defend yourself.
I can really go further but I'd like to open up the floor for discussion...
Nope the Shield HAV is statistically better than the Armour HAV. Better fitting capacity (evinced by the "EHP ***** Sica" which can fit a whole proto line up and field 9K EHP vs Explosive AV) Better tracking and mobility optiions that reduce the penalties of slow tracking turrets Comprable and better EHP values Better stand and deliver capacity Better passive regen capacity (168 per second without even fitting a module after 4 seconds) Access to fitting modules without sacrificing racial tank all of that sounds good but can a shield rail or blaster beat a maddy blaster 1v1? Even a maddy rail has advantages. I don't know much about the fitting requirements of a maddy but most of the health is in the low slots and they can still have dmg mods without sacrificing health.
That's debatable. Really too many factors to consider.
Blasters are anti-shield weapons specifically, moreover beyond that there are only two of more than a dozen anti-shield AV options. Now in many respects I would suggest that a Blaster Gunnlogi has a fair chance due to its naturally higher EHP however the strength of Gallente tanks becomes apparent in long engagement.
Why would you ever need to?
But when you can have significantly more EHP than your opponent why not simply take the better option and go for missiles and Railguns both of which have range, DPS, and Anti Armour values over shields.
But lets look at two comparable fits.
Madrugar - Ion Cannon
1x ComplexArmour Hardener
2x Complex Heavy Armour Repairers
(CPU is already over allotment before I even turn to damage modules or Scanners)
((Genuinely am trying but cannot fit a damage module without sacrificing down to Standard Armour Modules or CPU extender))
instead
1x Basic Armour Hardener
2x Advanced Heavy Armour Repairer
1x Basic Nitrous
1x Basic Scanner
You have
1200 Shield 4000 Armour
5000 Armour EHP
Passive reps at 225 per second.
On my Gunnlogi - Ion Cannon'
1x Complex Shield Extender
1x Basic Blaster Damage Module
1x Complex Shield Hardener
1x Complex 120mm Armour Plating
1x Complex PG Extender
I have
3950 Shield and 3385 Armour
5530 Shield EHP
Passive reps during Blaster Cool down @ 168 (no modules required)
+10% damage
Now while in a head on fight the Gunnlogi probably loses with Blasters due to the modifiers vs Armour it will almost always better to go with Rails or Missiles in which during another head on engagement it always wins.
But surely you can see right here the disparity in terms of fitting potential Hell even a Sica would give a Madrugar a run for its money with Rails or Missiles.
I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this.
Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
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True Adamance
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Posted - 2014.12.01 01:32:00 -
[5] - Quote
You dun dimed these sceptical fellows Catmerc.
They mistake "potential to stack" for "effectiveness while".
Catmerc mentioned in passing a point that he has. EHP works when attacked, speed works when attacking. Amarr are naturally slow, this slow speed makes them poor reactionary suits.
Would I rather run 1-1.5 m/s faster or have an additional 400 EHP?
Answer is easily movement speed so I can kite out to range.
I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this.
Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
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True Adamance
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Posted - 2014.12.01 01:42:00 -
[6] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:True Adamance wrote:You dun dimed these sceptical fellows Catmerc. They mistake "potential to stack" for "effectiveness while". Sure an Amarr Assault can reach 1200 EHP. Do I do that and is it Effective? No I don't I run two ferros, two reppers, and a kin cat. Speed and Regen are tops. Well, I don't think that anyone plays with a maxed out Cal or Min assault suit either.
Min Assault can cap out at 1014.3 EHP...not half bad and has significantly better regen and movement speed.
Currently my Assault has only around about 740 EHP, 20 Armour Reps per second, and 30 Shield reps per second, roughly a net gain of 12% additional light weapon damage, and moves at 8m/s.
I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this.
Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
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True Adamance
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Posted - 2014.12.01 01:48:00 -
[7] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Of course, you would use them differently. But when you're trying to grab objectives or defend them, you may find yourself in an engagement on the objective. Especially in an assault suit where you can't see everyone until they are right up on you. Oh then, I do wonder why I have this scanner on my Assault  Besides, as I said you need to be creative when you are caught in a bad fight you aren't designed to fight. Just as a single example of what I like to do, if I get caught within say, 4 meters of someone? I sprint into them, get past them, then jump backwards. This tends to confuse them, and give me enough time to deal the first deal of damage. This really only works if your suit has a high speed.
Just saw that I could fit a stable active scanner. DONE.
Force recon here I come at 8m/s!
I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this.
Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
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True Adamance
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Posted - 2014.12.01 01:52:00 -
[8] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:True Adamance wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Of course, you would use them differently. But when you're trying to grab objectives or defend them, you may find yourself in an engagement on the objective. Especially in an assault suit where you can't see everyone until they are right up on you. Oh then, I do wonder why I have this scanner on my Assault Besides, as I said you need to be creative when you are caught in a bad fight you aren't designed to fight. Just as a single example of what I like to do, if I get caught within say, 4 meters of someone? I sprint into them, get past them, then jump backwards. This tends to confuse them, and give me enough time to deal the first deal of damage. This really only works if your suit has a high speed. Just saw that I could fit a stable active scanner. DONE. Force recon here I come at 8m/s! Heh, the loyalty store Active Scanner is a lovely thing. Keeps targets scanned for 10 seconds, and has a range of 125m! Absolutely lovely :3
Hell the Creodron Flux Active Scanner is only 9 PG........ 28db scans for 8 sec and 90 degrees for 200m...... no way I can turn that down.
On the subject of HAV if I had another player with a maxed out Maddy I'd organise to do some testing of straight up Blaster brawls to determine who is kind brawler.
I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this.
Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
|
True Adamance
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Posted - 2014.12.01 02:14:00 -
[9] - Quote
Meeko Fent wrote:The issue with Shields is that I sacrifice a great deal to capitalize on my strength (regen)
I have to sacrifice all my major armor buffer to get a very good Regen.
Armor suits have more versatility in that they already have their buffer built in to how their suit is designed to play. I could slap MORE buffer, in the way of shields, or I can add damage, or add melee, or add the other high mods.
To do the same, I have to rely on my shields, which then regen too slowly to be able to rapidly reengage following a fight. I clear a area out of guys, wait for shields to recharge before rushing the last bit of terrain, and they've already spawned back.
That, and, 1 v 1, a pure armor suit will likely win every time. They have more buffer compared to pure shield, and they have the added damage from the free highs.
Nothing in the lows really provide an incentive to fit shield suits for hit and run, besides just running. And then, I lose a good deal for having longer recharge delays for that speed.
Balancing PURE shields and PURE armor will be VERY hard. Both bricked? And their pretty equal.
Its just PURELY, armor is inherently better.
You shouldn't be armour tanking on a shield suit anyway.
The one thing I feel Shield tankers forget is the utility of Shields. Firstly no mobility penalties for respectable EHP values, you won't hit 1000 EHP but you will easily get around 700-800, respectable regenerative capacity, and access to utility modules from fitting enhancer, biotic enhancers, hacking modules, scanning modules.
That is versatility.
I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this.
Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
|
True Adamance
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Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
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Posted - 2014.12.01 02:16:00 -
[10] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
question....can you fit dual dmg mods on a maddy?
Let me have a looksie.
Answer is most likely yes......but at great cost.
@ Ghost- Do it your heathen dog! I'd love to argue shield vs Armour, Amarr vs Minmatar semantics...but prepare for me to giggle every time I talk about crusading for stuff, God, and slavery.
IRL I sometimes cannot take it all seriously.
I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this.
Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
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True Adamance
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Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
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Posted - 2014.12.01 02:21:00 -
[11] - Quote
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:Ghost Kaisar wrote:True Adamance wrote:
Min Assault can cap out at 1014.3 EHP...not half bad and has significantly better regen and movement speed.
Caps out at much higher, but its pretty much a shitfit past around 900 HP. ADVANCE NOTE. All suits were fitted with a Proto CR and Proto Flaylock to boot. Gotta be combat effective when designing a suit. Moving on. Max HP I could get while maintaining some level of intelligence was 1021.4 HP. 4x Shields, 2x Ferro, 1x React, 1x Rep. Dual Tanking sin right here. 14hp/s is not enough for its armor pool, and it has 6/10 second depleted/delay with base regen. Shitfit, I could take it down with a decent fit assault, shield or armor. Abuse some cover and watch his buffer go to bits, as he has no decent regen to back it up. Yes, it may have better speed, but dear god is its regen horrific. Hell, I can easily run 1000+ HP on an Amarr assault and still run 20+ hp/s armor rep.
Best Armor fit for a Min Assault (IMO) caps out at around 907 HP. It runs 2x ADV Shields, 2x Damage Mods, 2x Complex Plates, 2x Repair. It has 535 armor with 21 hp/s rep, with a decent shield buffer. Still sprints at around 7m/s. I love this suit for CQC maps, the constant regen really helps. Best Shield Fit for a Min Assault (IMO) Caps out at around 702 HP. It runs 3x shields, 1x Energizer, 3x Regulators, 1x Kincat. Thing has 1.92/3.13 for its delay/deplete, along with 43 hp/s regen. Speed helps a lot. My personal Min Assault runs a Hybrid tank, and is the best way to run it IMO. It runs 3x Shields, 1x Recharger, 1x Energizer, 1x Repair, 1x Ferroscale, 1x Kincat. Runs at 800 HP, with decent shield and armor regen, while maintaining it's high speed. An excellent skirmishing fit. As much as I love you, Kaisar, your fits sicken me. Min assault-4 complex shields, 2 complex damps, and either a rep per + kin cat, or 2 kin cats. Boundless CR and Six Kin SMG with a flux grenade for pesky cal scounts.
Were not talking viable we're simply talking total EHP. A 1200 EHP Amarr Assault is not worth running unless you have a logi at your back a which point you might as well use a Sentinel and get even great EHP.
RE: Saxonmish Amarr Assault 1200 EHP 64/1 fight to be fair he had an entire squad of Logi constantly repping and protecting him.
I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this.
Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
|
True Adamance
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Posted - 2014.12.01 02:43:00 -
[12] - Quote
Ghost Kaisar wrote:True Adamance wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:The issue with Shields is that I sacrifice a great deal to capitalize on my strength (regen)
I have to sacrifice all my major armor buffer to get a very good Regen.
Armor suits have more versatility in that they already have their buffer built in to how their suit is designed to play. I could slap MORE buffer, in the way of shields, or I can add damage, or add melee, or add the other high mods.
To do the same, I have to rely on my shields, which then regen too slowly to be able to rapidly reengage following a fight. I clear a area out of guys, wait for shields to recharge before rushing the last bit of terrain, and they've already spawned back.
That, and, 1 v 1, a pure armor suit will likely win every time. They have more buffer compared to pure shield, and they have the added damage from the free highs.
Nothing in the lows really provide an incentive to fit shield suits for hit and run, besides just running. And then, I lose a good deal for having longer recharge delays for that speed.
Balancing PURE shields and PURE armor will be VERY hard. Both bricked? And their pretty equal.
Its just PURELY, armor is inherently better. You shouldn't be armour tanking on a shield suit anyway. The one thing I feel Shield tankers forget is the utility of Shields. Firstly no mobility penalties for respectable EHP values, you won't hit 1000 EHP but you will easily get around 700-800, respectable regenerative capacity, and access to utility modules from fitting enhancer, biotic enhancers, hacking modules, scanning modules. That is versatility. Min Assault is possibly the best assault in the game because of this. It has a fantastic slot layout and its base speed/stamina regen works wonders. It is unbelievably flexible, running deadly shield and armor fits. Heck, I say that for most Minmatar suits. Outside of the scout and Logi, every suit can either be shield, or armor tanked. Its half the reason why I love all their suits.
I would argue the same thing. The Minmatar Assault, and I say this off the record, is a lovely frame, no aesthetically, but statistically.
4 highs / 4 lows
Built in Hack Bonus (very small), High mobility, balanced Stats making it basically suited for whatever doctrine I want to roll at any time.
Now "IF" I were hypothetically to have an alt on which I test things I cannot on True Adamance this alt certainly would not happen to have Minmatar Assault V.
I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this.
Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
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True Adamance
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Posted - 2014.12.01 02:47:00 -
[13] - Quote
Meeko Fent wrote:True Adamance wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:The issue with Shields is that I sacrifice a great deal to capitalize on my strength (regen)
I have to sacrifice all my major armor buffer to get a very good Regen.
Armor suits have more versatility in that they already have their buffer built in to how their suit is designed to play. I could slap MORE buffer, in the way of shields, or I can add damage, or add melee, or add the other high mods.
To do the same, I have to rely on my shields, which then regen too slowly to be able to rapidly reengage following a fight. I clear a area out of guys, wait for shields to recharge before rushing the last bit of terrain, and they've already spawned back.
That, and, 1 v 1, a pure armor suit will likely win every time. They have more buffer compared to pure shield, and they have the added damage from the free highs.
Nothing in the lows really provide an incentive to fit shield suits for hit and run, besides just running. And then, I lose a good deal for having longer recharge delays for that speed.
Balancing PURE shields and PURE armor will be VERY hard. Both bricked? And their pretty equal.
Its just PURELY, armor is inherently better. You shouldn't be armour tanking on a shield suit anyway. The one thing I feel Shield tankers forget is the utility of Shields. Firstly no mobility penalties for respectable EHP values, you won't hit 1000 EHP but you will easily get around 700-800, respectable regenerative capacity, and access to utility modules from fitting enhancer, biotic enhancers, hacking modules, scanning modules. That is versatility. No. RONG. You get 700-800 eHP on proto suits. On a cheap Standard suit, If you run pure shield, you end up w/ 600 eHP. W/ Capped out HP skills. Whereas a Bricked shield suit could reach a hundred HP higher, giving it a solid lead in CQC, or 1 v 1 fights. A Armor Suit is inherently higher still. That Regen is useful, but as I said, capitalizing on regen loses a great deal of versatility in shield suits, making them one trick ponies. You have to lose your lows to make a good frontline shield suit, if you don't touch armor. You NEED better regen to make a shield great, because they lose eHP compared to armor, and you need to source that regen not only from your famed "utility" slots, but you also have to set aside a slot or two for boosting your general recharge rate (HP/s) from your highs, reducing your options for buffer more. Maybe this is less an issue of shields being bad, and more a place of saying standard caldari shield suits are bad. Ish. Not really. Like I said, bricks are always great, and even then, the regen is still good, but it still isn't as good as armor, considering the current meta of maps. Have I ever told you how much the Maps are favoring high eHP suits lately?
My low tier Armour Suits also suffer lesser EHP values 630 at standard level.
I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this.
Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
|
True Adamance
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Posted - 2014.12.01 03:01:00 -
[14] - Quote
Meeko Fent wrote:True Adamance wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:True Adamance wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:The issue with Shields is that I sacrifice a great deal to capitalize on my strength (regen)
I have to sacrifice all my major armor buffer to get a very good Regen.
Armor suits have more versatility in that they already have their buffer built in to how their suit is designed to play. I could slap MORE buffer, in the way of shields, or I can add damage, or add melee, or add the other high mods.
To do the same, I have to rely on my shields, which then regen too slowly to be able to rapidly reengage following a fight. I clear a area out of guys, wait for shields to recharge before rushing the last bit of terrain, and they've already spawned back.
That, and, 1 v 1, a pure armor suit will likely win every time. They have more buffer compared to pure shield, and they have the added damage from the free highs.
Nothing in the lows really provide an incentive to fit shield suits for hit and run, besides just running. And then, I lose a good deal for having longer recharge delays for that speed.
Balancing PURE shields and PURE armor will be VERY hard. Both bricked? And their pretty equal.
Its just PURELY, armor is inherently better. You shouldn't be armour tanking on a shield suit anyway. The one thing I feel Shield tankers forget is the utility of Shields. Firstly no mobility penalties for respectable EHP values, you won't hit 1000 EHP but you will easily get around 700-800, respectable regenerative capacity, and access to utility modules from fitting enhancer, biotic enhancers, hacking modules, scanning modules. That is versatility. No. RONG. You get 700-800 eHP on proto suits. On a cheap Standard suit, If you run pure shield, you end up w/ 600 eHP. W/ Capped out HP skills. Whereas a Bricked shield suit could reach a hundred HP higher, giving it a solid lead in CQC, or 1 v 1 fights. A Armor Suit is inherently higher still. That Regen is useful, but as I said, capitalizing on regen loses a great deal of versatility in shield suits, making them one trick ponies. You have to lose your lows to make a good frontline shield suit, if you don't touch armor. You NEED better regen to make a shield great, because they lose eHP compared to armor, and you need to source that regen not only from your famed "utility" slots, but you also have to set aside a slot or two for boosting your general recharge rate (HP/s) from your highs, reducing your options for buffer more. Maybe this is less an issue of shields being bad, and more a place of saying standard caldari shield suits are bad. Ish. Not really. Like I said, bricks are always great, and even then, the regen is still good, but it still isn't as good as armor, considering the current meta of maps. Have I ever told you how much the Maps are favoring high eHP suits lately? My low tier Armour Suits also suffer lesser EHP values 630 at standard level. Wat. What did you do to it man?
1 Ferroscale to maintain mobility 2x Reppers.
Can get a Caldari Assault with 647 EHP as well.
I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this.
Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
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True Adamance
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Posted - 2014.12.01 03:08:00 -
[15] - Quote
Meeko Fent wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:Well, maybe I should have said that I used maxed gear in this. Sorry. Maxed reppers are ok, and even then, a Comp reactive I something I always have on one of my fits. Standard gear is really crummy But, even at that, at least the armor would survive to rep another day. Not trying to argue w/ the great Cat Merc (murrow), But Armor also has a ton of perks shield doesn't
- Triage Hives
- Repair Tools
- Needles
Armor gets a ton more support from logis then shield does. As in all the support. A Armor suit may not even have to worry about regen, it may have a triage hive in its pocket ready to throw down, or a buddy w/ a rep tool. Of course, you are right in that solo armor suits vs solo shield suits lose because of the lack of regen. A Gun > Repair tool Unless you're a sentinel, don't expect repairers on you, unless you're in pubs and you have a dedicated Logi farming points on you while you kill a bunch of redberries. (Cough Arkena Cough) Needles now apply to both shields and armor. Triage hives have been nerfed quite a bit from their original godly incarnation, they don't last long and get killed by being sneezed at. And they still have the same problems they always had - They force you to play passively, you can't be the aggressor with them. True, but still, being able to fill up your armor pretty quick, plus the regular regen, is still good; plus that inherent eHP bonus. I was unaware that needles affected shields too, and it makes me sad. That was a pretty good plus to armor. I was suggesting that you've survived the fight, and the other teams at spawn (or uplinks), and you can then get topped off by a friendly logi , if you play in a squad. After the Heavy is topped off, the logi can then rep you.
The fact that shield transporters are not currently in the game is matter of poor development as opposed to an issue with balance.
I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this.
Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
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True Adamance
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Posted - 2014.12.01 03:18:00 -
[16] - Quote
Meeko Fent wrote:True Adamance wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:Well, maybe I should have said that I used maxed gear in this. Sorry. Maxed reppers are ok, and even then, a Comp reactive I something I always have on one of my fits. Standard gear is really crummy But, even at that, at least the armor would survive to rep another day. Not trying to argue w/ the great Cat Merc (murrow), But Armor also has a ton of perks shield doesn't
- Triage Hives
- Repair Tools
- Needles
Armor gets a ton more support from logis then shield does. As in all the support. A Armor suit may not even have to worry about regen, it may have a triage hive in its pocket ready to throw down, or a buddy w/ a rep tool. Of course, you are right in that solo armor suits vs solo shield suits lose because of the lack of regen. A Gun > Repair tool Unless you're a sentinel, don't expect repairers on you, unless you're in pubs and you have a dedicated Logi farming points on you while you kill a bunch of redberries. (Cough Arkena Cough) Needles now apply to both shields and armor. Triage hives have been nerfed quite a bit from their original godly incarnation, they don't last long and get killed by being sneezed at. And they still have the same problems they always had - They force you to play passively, you can't be the aggressor with them. True, but still, being able to fill up your armor pretty quick, plus the regular regen, is still good; plus that inherent eHP bonus. I was unaware that needles affected shields too, and it makes me sad. That was a pretty good plus to armor. I was suggesting that you've survived the fight, and the other teams at spawn (or uplinks), and you can then get topped off by a friendly logi , if you play in a squad. After the Heavy is topped off, the logi can then rep you. The fact that shield transporters are not currently in the game is matter of poor development as opposed to an issue with balance. True, but since we're balancing the now, we might as well assume that this is what we're working w/. The Armor Honeycombing Module isn't here yet 
That's a really great and underrated skill. But when I do inevitably get one......
IMMA HONEYCOMB DAT ***** UP!
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True Adamance
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Posted - 2014.12.01 03:23:00 -
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Meeko Fent wrote:Ydubbs81 wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:Of course, you are right in that solo armor suits vs solo shield suits lose because of the lack of regen. solo armor suits vs solo shield suits will win....shield regen can't help you in an engagement unless there is a lot of cover. In open space and equal skill..the armor suit has the advantage. And even then, my friend, the armor will just advance when your in cover recharging your shields.
That's debatable.
If you are engaging me with an anti armour weapon and I am engaging with an anti shield weapon and I advance on you.......
In the time it take me to regenate 100 points of HP you could have 150 assuming Catmer's fit vs my own.
1 second later
120 vs 200
140 vs 250
170 vs 300
etc.....
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True Adamance
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Posted - 2014.12.01 03:27:00 -
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Ydubbs81 wrote:hfderrtgvcd wrote:Ydubbs81 wrote:hfderrtgvcd wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:I mean, how is a cal heavy supposed to compete cal heavies are beast. The hmg does -15% damage to shields. vs an amarr heavy that has resistance to the HMG with maybe 1000hp of armor and a logi?? You can't compare 2 players to 1. In a 1v1 a cal heavy will win everytime if he knows what he's doing. No, you can't but this is the game that we play and I'm talking about what happens on the battlefield. Practice vs theory. as an amarr heavy, you would benefit from a logi more than a cal heavy would. That's part of the advantage of armor tanking...which is my motivation for this thread......to illustrate the many advantages armor has over shield tanking.
But Repair Tools and Shield Transporters (or lack thereof) are design flaws.
Give a Shield suit a Shield Transponder and arguably they are on the same if not greater capacity than armour (I have no issue with this at all) and is only not current in the game as a result of CCP's current stance relating to the release if content in Dust.
You are comparing something that is in the game with something that "should be in the game".
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True Adamance
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Posted - 2014.12.01 03:32:00 -
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Ydubbs81 wrote:True Adamance wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:Ydubbs81 wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:Of course, you are right in that solo armor suits vs solo shield suits lose because of the lack of regen. solo armor suits vs solo shield suits will win....shield regen can't help you in an engagement unless there is a lot of cover. In open space and equal skill..the armor suit has the advantage. And even then, my friend, the armor will just advance when your in cover recharging your shields. That's debatable. If you are engaging me with an anti armour weapon and I am engaging with an anti shield weapon and I advance on you....... In the time it take me to regenate 100 points of HP you could have 150 assuming Catmer's fit vs my own. 1 second later 120 vs 200 140 vs 250 170 vs 300 etc..... are you taking into the account that armor doesn't have a delay while the shield suit has to wait seconds before they start to regen? Any one of my guns reloads faster than it would take my shields to start to regen
Yes.
5 seconds.
Catmerc's fit has a delay of 2 seconds and 52.65 rep/sec
Mine has constant passive of 20 rep/sec.
Assuming we stop firing at the same time and have five seconds to regen and reload.
20* 5 = 100 armour reps over 5 seconds
(5 seconds - 2 second delay) = 3 seconds @ 52.65 rep/sec
52.65* 3 = 157.95
In this instance I have not regenerated any of my shielding and am engaging you (by in this instance as stated by Meeko approaching your position) with X EHP + my 100 vs you who is now in a superior positions waiting for my arrival.
In 3 more seconds you will have regenerated 315.9 shielding vs my 160 armour.
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True Adamance
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Posted - 2014.12.01 03:33:00 -
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Ydubbs81 wrote:True Adamance wrote:
But Repair Tools and Shield Transporters (or lack thereof) are design flaws.
Give a Shield suit a Shield Transponder and arguably they are on the same if not greater capacity than armour (I have no issue with this at all) and is only not current in the game as a result of CCP's current stance relating to the release if content in Dust.
You are comparing something that is in the game with something that "should be in the game".
That's my point...I'm illustrating what armor has now that shields does not.
Then its not a matter of them being unbalanced vs one another its a matter of having not implemented the correct equipment.
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True Adamance
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Posted - 2014.12.01 03:57:00 -
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pagl1u M wrote:1 how can you talk about tanking without talking about playstyle?
2 you cant talk about open space fights without covers, we are not fighting in open arenas, you have to consider every aspect of the game.
You can't. You can only argue numbers. Which I have done.
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True Adamance
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Posted - 2014.12.01 07:54:00 -
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Ydubbs81 wrote:True Adamance wrote:Ydubbs81 wrote:
are you taking into the account that armor doesn't have a delay while the shield suit has to wait seconds before they start to regen? Any one of my guns reloads faster than it would take my shields to start to regen
Yes. 5 seconds. Catmerc's fit has a delay of 2 seconds and 52.65 rep/sec Mine has constant passive of 20 rep/sec. Assuming we stop firing at the same time and have five seconds to regen and reload. 20* 5 = 100 armour reps over 5 seconds (5 seconds - 2 second delay) = 3 seconds @ 52.65 rep/sec 52.65* 3 = 157.95 In this instance I have not regenerated any of my shielding and am engaging you (by in this instance as stated by Meeko approaching your position) with X EHP + my 100 vs you who is now in a superior positions waiting for my arrival. In 3 more seconds you will have regenerated 315.9 shielding vs my 160 armour. That's great if you have 5 seconds to regen. Because if we're gunning each other in a cqc situation, you won' t have 5 secs to regen. And see, noone can argue that shields regen faster than armor. Noone is denying that....but we can throw some real scenarios into the mix. Like, if a gal assault is sitting in a triage nanohive during this encounter. This is one of my points...all of the different advantages that armor tanking has against shields. There is nothing that a shield tanker can do or equip to have regen during damage.
It honestly seems to me like you are pick out ever fault Shielding has and not acknowledging its strengths while at the same time saying "this is how I want to play......but I don't want to do it with armour."
Passive regen means **** all under concentrated fire its more often than not less than one bullet the only time passive armour repping does matter is when you get several seconds of it,
This evening I've been running my Regen/Speed Amarr suit and honestly there is rarely a time I cannot find 5 seconds to regenerate my HP, would be easier if I was doing this with shields/
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True Adamance
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Posted - 2014.12.01 20:07:00 -
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Mexxx Dust-Slayer wrote:Sgt Kirk wrote:"Guy gives meaningful feedback and comments regarding topic at hand"
"Reply results in being called stupid and nothing else"
Yep, that's Dust for you. If only precisions were on low and range amps were on high, then it would have been meaningful. But that was stupid though, right?
Why would I as an assault want range amps? Hell why would I as an Amarr player (besides the scout) was range amps in the highs when I could have Shield Re-chargers or Damage Modules.
That solves nothing.
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Posted - 2014.12.01 21:42:00 -
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Sgt Kirk wrote:True, you of all people. Unless that's a troll because information is incredibly valuable
Well I am in the unusual predicament of having no PG left on my assault due to the Protype Kin Cat and high ScR fitting requirements...... I can either have a pointless passive scan precision enhancer (don't need one I have a PRO active scanner) or I can have fast regening Shields.
Given that I've seen a Psycho DPS Harbinger fit in action there's literally nothing I'd rather fit in my highs that doesn't require PG and allows me to maintain DPS and kiting ability. Plus as Catmerc said I can use shielding as a buffer which I concentrate on kiting the enemy at range and rely on it to recharge rapidly.
Seems to work pretty well at the moment for me given that my current fit has 160 Shields and 559 Armour.
EDIT: It's a shield energizer. Since I don't have much shielding anyway the -4% is negligible anyway.
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True Adamance
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Posted - 2014.12.02 07:15:00 -
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Ydubbs81 wrote:True Adamance wrote:Ydubbs81 wrote:True Adamance wrote:Ydubbs81 wrote:
are you taking into the account that armor doesn't have a delay while the shield suit has to wait seconds before they start to regen? Any one of my guns reloads faster than it would take my shields to start to regen
Yes. 5 seconds. Catmerc's fit has a delay of 2 seconds and 52.65 rep/sec Mine has constant passive of 20 rep/sec. Assuming we stop firing at the same time and have five seconds to regen and reload. 20* 5 = 100 armour reps over 5 seconds (5 seconds - 2 second delay) = 3 seconds @ 52.65 rep/sec 52.65* 3 = 157.95 In this instance I have not regenerated any of my shielding and am engaging you (by in this instance as stated by Meeko approaching your position) with X EHP + my 100 vs you who is now in a superior positions waiting for my arrival. In 3 more seconds you will have regenerated 315.9 shielding vs my 160 armour. That's great if you have 5 seconds to regen. Because if we're gunning each other in a cqc situation, you won' t have 5 secs to regen. And see, noone can argue that shields regen faster than armor. Noone is denying that....but we can throw some real scenarios into the mix. Like, if a gal assault is sitting in a triage nanohive during this encounter. This is one of my points...all of the different advantages that armor tanking has against shields. There is nothing that a shield tanker can do or equip to have regen during damage. It honestly seems to me like you are pick out ever fault Shielding has and not acknowledging its strengths while at the same time saying "this is how I want to play......but I don't want to do it with armour." Passive regen means **** all under concentrated fire its more often than not less than one bullet the only time passive armour repping does matter is when you get several seconds of it, This evening I've been running my Regen/Speed Amarr suit and honestly there is rarely a time I cannot find 5 seconds to regenerate my HP, would be easier if I was doing this with shields/ I never said that shield tanking doesn't have strengths.....I'm just saying that armor tanking has more. It seems to me that you just want to acknowledge what shields are good at but not that armor tanking has more benefits.
Besides it's natural resist profile vs short range high DPS weapons like the SMG, Combat Rifle, and(not fitting into the DPS category) Mass Driver is a very nice set of benefits in my mind (this coming from an armour tanker), coupled with natural speed, and utility lows all seem like perfectly good reasons to shield tank to me.
Not going to suggest Shield suits don't need transporters, or some kind of repping Hive but they have enough benefits in my mind to be worth considering.
Nor am I saying I would Shield Tank unless that was the Amarrian way. PIE frowns on the use of any dropsuit that is not Amarrian which I'm cool with.
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True Adamance
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Posted - 2014.12.04 08:43:00 -
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Meeko Fent wrote:HI AGAIN!
I'd just like to drop this note of shield v armor, relating to frontline assaults/sents.
Shield suits are more restricted in fittings. They have to use both their high and lows to get a fitting that has respectable HP, and a very strong regen. Since shield extenders extend the recharge delay, I then would either have weaker regen stats, or lose a low to a regul to compensate. Armor, since all their mods are in the lows, and their mods don't wound their own stats (Armor plate don't make armor reppers cost more to fit!), they have their highs open to whatever you want to fit.
Armor and Shield is in a very nice place right now, but it's worth bring up that fact.
But at the same time don't have a passive regen and must create their regen using module slots. Moreover suffer mobility penalties which in their own right are more than crippling enough.
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