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hfderrtgvcd
1396
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Posted - 2014.12.01 03:03:00 -
[121] - Quote
Ghost Kaisar wrote:True Adamance wrote:
Min Assault can cap out at 1014.3 EHP...not half bad and has significantly better regen and movement speed.
Caps out at much higher, but its pretty much a shitfit past around 900 HP. ADVANCE NOTE. All suits were fitted with a Proto CR and Proto Flaylock to boot. Gotta be combat effective when designing a suit. Moving on. Max HP I could get while maintaining some level of intelligence was 1021.4 HP. 4x Shields, 2x Ferro, 1x React, 1x Rep. Dual Tanking sin right here. 14hp/s is not enough for its armor pool, and it has 6/10 second depleted/delay with base regen. Shitfit, I could take it down with a decent fit assault, shield or armor. Abuse some cover and watch his buffer go to bits, as he has no decent regen to back it up. Yes, it may have better speed, but dear god is its regen horrific. Hell, I can easily run 1000+ HP on an Amarr assault and still run 20+ hp/s armor rep.
Best Armor fit for a Min Assault (IMO) caps out at around 907 HP. It runs 2x ADV Shields, 2x Damage Mods, 2x Complex Plates, 2x Repair. It has 535 armor with 21 hp/s rep, with a decent shield buffer. Still sprints at around 7m/s. I love this suit for CQC maps, the constant regen really helps. Best Shield Fit for a Min Assault (IMO) Caps out at around 702 HP. It runs 3x shields, 1x Energizer, 3x Regulators, 1x Kincat. Thing has 1.92/3.13 for its delay/deplete, along with 43 hp/s regen. Speed helps a lot. My personal Min Assault runs a Hybrid tank, and is the best way to run it IMO. It runs 3x Shields, 1x Recharger, 1x Energizer, 1x Repair, 1x Ferroscale, 1x Kincat. Runs at 800 HP, with decent shield and armor regen, while maintaining it's high speed. An excellent skirmishing fit.
your armor fit is terribad. The reason to use the minmatar assault is the crazy strafe speed. Two complex plates completely ruin it.
You can't fight in here! This is the war room.
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Ydubbs81
Ahrendee Mercenaries
1
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Posted - 2014.12.01 03:04:00 -
[122] - Quote
hfderrtgvcd wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:I mean, how is a cal heavy supposed to compete cal heavies are beast. The hmg does -15% damage to shields.
vs an amarr heavy that has resistance to the HMG with maybe 1000hp of armor and a logi?? |
Meeko Fent
Kirkinen Risk Control
Caldari State
2165
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 03:05:00 -
[123] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:Well, maybe I should have said that I used maxed gear in this. Sorry. Maxed reppers are ok, and even then, a Comp reactive I something I always have on one of my fits. Standard gear is really crummy But, even at that, at least the armor would survive to rep another day. Not trying to argue w/ the great Cat Merc (murrow), But Armor also has a ton of perks shield doesn't
- Triage Hives
- Repair Tools
- Needles
Armor gets a ton more support from logis then shield does. As in all the support. A Armor suit may not even have to worry about regen, it may have a triage hive in its pocket ready to throw down, or a buddy w/ a rep tool. Of course, you are right in that solo armor suits vs solo shield suits lose because of the lack of regen. A Gun > Repair tool Unless you're a sentinel, don't expect repairers on you, unless you're in pubs and you have a dedicated Logi farming points on you while you kill a bunch of redberries. (Cough Arkena Cough) Needles now apply to both shields and armor. Triage hives have been nerfed quite a bit from their original godly incarnation, they don't last long and get killed by being sneezed at. And they still have the same problems they always had - They force you to play passively, you can't be the aggressor with them.
True, but still, being able to fill up your armor pretty quick, plus the regular regen, is still good; plus that inherent eHP bonus. I was unaware that needles affected shields too, and it makes me sad. That was a pretty good plus to armor.
I was suggesting that you've survived the fight, and the other teams at spawn (or uplinks), and you can then get topped off by a friendly logi , if you play in a squad. After the Heavy is topped off, the logi can then rep you.
I Live for Tears
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hfderrtgvcd
1396
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Posted - 2014.12.01 03:05:00 -
[124] - Quote
Ydubbs81 wrote:hfderrtgvcd wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:I mean, how is a cal heavy supposed to compete cal heavies are beast. The hmg does -15% damage to shields. vs an amarr heavy that has resistance to the HMG with maybe 1000hp of armor and a logi??
You can't compare 2 players to 1. In a 1v1 a cal heavy will win everytime if he knows what he's doing.
You can't fight in here! This is the war room.
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
2970
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 03:06:00 -
[125] - Quote
I think that if shield suits got a bit more inherent regen, all these complaints would dissolve, and would reach true balance.
Scouts, Im excluding you from the above statement.
New theoretical values:
Assaults:
M: 3/4 delays, 30 recharge rate
C: 5/6 delays, 35 recharge rate
Commandos:
M: 6/8 delays, 25 recharge rate
C: 7/9 delays, 30 recharge rate
Sentinels:
Minmitar and Cladari both get the shield delays of the current Caldari sentinel
"Minja" and "Masochist" are synonyms.
FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ
I piss Remote Explosives and shit Shotgun shells.
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
15258
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Posted - 2014.12.01 03:08:00 -
[126] - Quote
Meeko Fent wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:Well, maybe I should have said that I used maxed gear in this. Sorry. Maxed reppers are ok, and even then, a Comp reactive I something I always have on one of my fits. Standard gear is really crummy But, even at that, at least the armor would survive to rep another day. Not trying to argue w/ the great Cat Merc (murrow), But Armor also has a ton of perks shield doesn't
- Triage Hives
- Repair Tools
- Needles
Armor gets a ton more support from logis then shield does. As in all the support. A Armor suit may not even have to worry about regen, it may have a triage hive in its pocket ready to throw down, or a buddy w/ a rep tool. Of course, you are right in that solo armor suits vs solo shield suits lose because of the lack of regen. A Gun > Repair tool Unless you're a sentinel, don't expect repairers on you, unless you're in pubs and you have a dedicated Logi farming points on you while you kill a bunch of redberries. (Cough Arkena Cough) Needles now apply to both shields and armor. Triage hives have been nerfed quite a bit from their original godly incarnation, they don't last long and get killed by being sneezed at. And they still have the same problems they always had - They force you to play passively, you can't be the aggressor with them. True, but still, being able to fill up your armor pretty quick, plus the regular regen, is still good; plus that inherent eHP bonus. I was unaware that needles affected shields too, and it makes me sad. That was a pretty good plus to armor. I was suggesting that you've survived the fight, and the other teams at spawn (or uplinks), and you can then get topped off by a friendly logi , if you play in a squad. After the Heavy is topped off, the logi can then rep you.
The fact that shield transporters are not currently in the game is matter of poor development as opposed to an issue with balance.
I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this.
Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
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Ydubbs81
Ahrendee Mercenaries
1
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Posted - 2014.12.01 03:09:00 -
[127] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
question....can you fit dual dmg mods on a maddy?
No not even with a Complex CPU Extender and a Basic Turret. Unless you want to sacrifice your entire armour tank capacity. @ Ghost- Do it your heathen dog! I'd love to argue shield vs Armour, Amarr vs Minmatar semantics...but prepare for me to giggle every time I talk about crusading for stuff, God, and slavery. IRL I sometimes cannot take it all seriously.
ok...I don't much about maddys. So, I'm basing my opinion on what I see on the ground and maddy blasters are no joke. Maddies-anything are no joke. I don't even know what I would fit vs a maddy rail with a damage mod. Because once he activates his armor hardener, it's goiong to be harder to kill him. I know that I need damage mods to kill a good maddy rail and to use damage mods, I sacrifice health.
Gunnlogis have their defense and offense on the high slot while maddys have their defense on their lows and offense (meaning dmg mods) on their highs. |
Meeko Fent
Kirkinen Risk Control
Caldari State
2165
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 03:13:00 -
[128] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:True Adamance wrote:My low tier Armour Suits also suffer lesser EHP values 630 at standard level.
Wat. What did you do to it man? 1 Ferroscale to maintain mobility 2x Reppers. Can get a Caldari Assault with 647 EHP as well.
Ah. I suppose it would work. Definitely...Different though. I prolly wouldn't do very well in it.
I personally, considering we're talking about amarr suits (I assume), would fit heavy armor in lows w/damage mods in the highs. Generic Armor Suit, basically. If you run ScR (also assumed; Amarr) you get some good projection along with some highly bonused shots. Keep range, and plink. If they get too close, then you could always spam the R1 to death.
Interesting fit, though
I Live for Tears
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Ydubbs81
Ahrendee Mercenaries
1
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Posted - 2014.12.01 03:13:00 -
[129] - Quote
Meeko Fent wrote:Of course, you are right in that solo armor suits vs solo shield suits lose because of the lack of regen.
solo armor suits vs solo shield suits will win....shield regen can't help you in an engagement unless there is a lot of cover. In open space and equal skill..the armor suit has the advantage. |
Meeko Fent
Kirkinen Risk Control
Caldari State
2165
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 03:15:00 -
[130] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:Well, maybe I should have said that I used maxed gear in this. Sorry. Maxed reppers are ok, and even then, a Comp reactive I something I always have on one of my fits. Standard gear is really crummy But, even at that, at least the armor would survive to rep another day. Not trying to argue w/ the great Cat Merc (murrow), But Armor also has a ton of perks shield doesn't
- Triage Hives
- Repair Tools
- Needles
Armor gets a ton more support from logis then shield does. As in all the support. A Armor suit may not even have to worry about regen, it may have a triage hive in its pocket ready to throw down, or a buddy w/ a rep tool. Of course, you are right in that solo armor suits vs solo shield suits lose because of the lack of regen. A Gun > Repair tool Unless you're a sentinel, don't expect repairers on you, unless you're in pubs and you have a dedicated Logi farming points on you while you kill a bunch of redberries. (Cough Arkena Cough) Needles now apply to both shields and armor. Triage hives have been nerfed quite a bit from their original godly incarnation, they don't last long and get killed by being sneezed at. And they still have the same problems they always had - They force you to play passively, you can't be the aggressor with them. True, but still, being able to fill up your armor pretty quick, plus the regular regen, is still good; plus that inherent eHP bonus. I was unaware that needles affected shields too, and it makes me sad. That was a pretty good plus to armor. I was suggesting that you've survived the fight, and the other teams at spawn (or uplinks), and you can then get topped off by a friendly logi , if you play in a squad. After the Heavy is topped off, the logi can then rep you. The fact that shield transporters are not currently in the game is matter of poor development as opposed to an issue with balance.
True, but since we're balancing the now, we might as well assume that this is what we're working w/. The Armor Honeycombing Module isn't here yet 
I Live for Tears
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
2970
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 03:15:00 -
[131] - Quote
Ydubbs81 wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:Of course, you are right in that solo armor suits vs solo shield suits lose because of the lack of regen. solo armor suits vs solo shield suits will win....shield regen can't help you in an engagement unless there is a lot of cover. In open space and equal skill..the armor suit has the advantage.
Armor also doesn't have to stop regaining HP for 10 seconds because someone farted in their general direction.
"Minja" and "Masochist" are synonyms.
FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ
I piss Remote Explosives and shit Shotgun shells.
|
Meeko Fent
Kirkinen Risk Control
Caldari State
2165
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 03:16:00 -
[132] - Quote
Ydubbs81 wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:Of course, you are right in that solo armor suits vs solo shield suits lose because of the lack of regen. solo armor suits vs solo shield suits will win....shield regen can't help you in an engagement unless there is a lot of cover. In open space and equal skill..the armor suit has the advantage.
And even then, my friend, the armor will just advance when your in cover recharging your shields.
I Live for Tears
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
15258
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 03:18:00 -
[133] - Quote
Meeko Fent wrote:True Adamance wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:Well, maybe I should have said that I used maxed gear in this. Sorry. Maxed reppers are ok, and even then, a Comp reactive I something I always have on one of my fits. Standard gear is really crummy But, even at that, at least the armor would survive to rep another day. Not trying to argue w/ the great Cat Merc (murrow), But Armor also has a ton of perks shield doesn't
- Triage Hives
- Repair Tools
- Needles
Armor gets a ton more support from logis then shield does. As in all the support. A Armor suit may not even have to worry about regen, it may have a triage hive in its pocket ready to throw down, or a buddy w/ a rep tool. Of course, you are right in that solo armor suits vs solo shield suits lose because of the lack of regen. A Gun > Repair tool Unless you're a sentinel, don't expect repairers on you, unless you're in pubs and you have a dedicated Logi farming points on you while you kill a bunch of redberries. (Cough Arkena Cough) Needles now apply to both shields and armor. Triage hives have been nerfed quite a bit from their original godly incarnation, they don't last long and get killed by being sneezed at. And they still have the same problems they always had - They force you to play passively, you can't be the aggressor with them. True, but still, being able to fill up your armor pretty quick, plus the regular regen, is still good; plus that inherent eHP bonus. I was unaware that needles affected shields too, and it makes me sad. That was a pretty good plus to armor. I was suggesting that you've survived the fight, and the other teams at spawn (or uplinks), and you can then get topped off by a friendly logi , if you play in a squad. After the Heavy is topped off, the logi can then rep you. The fact that shield transporters are not currently in the game is matter of poor development as opposed to an issue with balance. True, but since we're balancing the now, we might as well assume that this is what we're working w/. The Armor Honeycombing Module isn't here yet
That's a really great and underrated skill. But when I do inevitably get one......
IMMA HONEYCOMB DAT ***** UP!
I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this.
Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
|
Ydubbs81
Ahrendee Mercenaries
1
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 03:21:00 -
[134] - Quote
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:I think that if shield suits got a bit more inherent regen, all these complaints would dissolve, and would reach true balance.
Scouts, Im excluding you from the above statement.
New theoretical values:
Assaults:
M: 3/4 delays, 30 recharge rate
C: 5/6 delays, 35 recharge rate
Commandos:
M: 6/8 delays, 25 recharge rate
C: 7/9 delays, 30 recharge rate
Sentinels:
Minmitar and Cladari both get the shield delays of the current Caldari sentinel.
Logi's:
I have no idea what the current stats are, and thus no reference for balance.
If you have time to regen, 30 - 50 is definitely adequate.
In order to truly make place them on the same page, you would have to give some of the advantages that armor has to shields. Give logis the ability to rep shields through a fight like they can with armor. Or, a nanohive that allows shields to recharge through damage like armor has. Or, keep the shield depleted delay but remove the regular shield recovery delay like armor has. Buff shield extender hp. Implement a shield mod that gives hp bonus and shield recharge bonus. Place damage mods on low slots, etc
I know some of these suggestions may sound extra but it's the point that I'm making that's more important. |
True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
15258
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 03:23:00 -
[135] - Quote
Meeko Fent wrote:Ydubbs81 wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:Of course, you are right in that solo armor suits vs solo shield suits lose because of the lack of regen. solo armor suits vs solo shield suits will win....shield regen can't help you in an engagement unless there is a lot of cover. In open space and equal skill..the armor suit has the advantage. And even then, my friend, the armor will just advance when your in cover recharging your shields.
That's debatable.
If you are engaging me with an anti armour weapon and I am engaging with an anti shield weapon and I advance on you.......
In the time it take me to regenate 100 points of HP you could have 150 assuming Catmer's fit vs my own.
1 second later
120 vs 200
140 vs 250
170 vs 300
etc.....
I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this.
Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
|
Ydubbs81
Ahrendee Mercenaries
1
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 03:24:00 -
[136] - Quote
hfderrtgvcd wrote:Ydubbs81 wrote:hfderrtgvcd wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:I mean, how is a cal heavy supposed to compete cal heavies are beast. The hmg does -15% damage to shields. vs an amarr heavy that has resistance to the HMG with maybe 1000hp of armor and a logi?? You can't compare 2 players to 1. In a 1v1 a cal heavy will win everytime if he knows what he's doing.
No, you can't but this is the game that we play and I'm talking about what happens on the battlefield. Practice vs theory.
as an amarr heavy, you would benefit from a logi more than a cal heavy would. That's part of the advantage of armor tanking...which is my motivation for this thread......to illustrate the many advantages armor has over shield tanking. |
Ydubbs81
Ahrendee Mercenaries
1
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 03:26:00 -
[137] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:Ydubbs81 wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:Of course, you are right in that solo armor suits vs solo shield suits lose because of the lack of regen. solo armor suits vs solo shield suits will win....shield regen can't help you in an engagement unless there is a lot of cover. In open space and equal skill..the armor suit has the advantage. And even then, my friend, the armor will just advance when your in cover recharging your shields. That's debatable. If you are engaging me with an anti armour weapon and I am engaging with an anti shield weapon and I advance on you....... In the time it take me to regenate 100 points of HP you could have 150 assuming Catmer's fit vs my own. 1 second later 120 vs 200 140 vs 250 170 vs 300 etc.....
are you taking into the account that armor doesn't have a delay while the shield suit has to wait seconds before they start to regen? Any one of my guns reloads faster than it would take my shields to start to regen |
True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
15258
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 03:27:00 -
[138] - Quote
Ydubbs81 wrote:hfderrtgvcd wrote:Ydubbs81 wrote:hfderrtgvcd wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:I mean, how is a cal heavy supposed to compete cal heavies are beast. The hmg does -15% damage to shields. vs an amarr heavy that has resistance to the HMG with maybe 1000hp of armor and a logi?? You can't compare 2 players to 1. In a 1v1 a cal heavy will win everytime if he knows what he's doing. No, you can't but this is the game that we play and I'm talking about what happens on the battlefield. Practice vs theory. as an amarr heavy, you would benefit from a logi more than a cal heavy would. That's part of the advantage of armor tanking...which is my motivation for this thread......to illustrate the many advantages armor has over shield tanking.
But Repair Tools and Shield Transporters (or lack thereof) are design flaws.
Give a Shield suit a Shield Transponder and arguably they are on the same if not greater capacity than armour (I have no issue with this at all) and is only not current in the game as a result of CCP's current stance relating to the release if content in Dust.
You are comparing something that is in the game with something that "should be in the game".
I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this.
Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
|
Meeko Fent
Kirkinen Risk Control
Caldari State
2165
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 03:27:00 -
[139] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:Ydubbs81 wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:Of course, you are right in that solo armor suits vs solo shield suits lose because of the lack of regen. solo armor suits vs solo shield suits will win....shield regen can't help you in an engagement unless there is a lot of cover. In open space and equal skill..the armor suit has the advantage. And even then, my friend, the armor will just advance when your in cover recharging your shields. That's debatable. If you are engaging me with an anti armour weapon and I am engaging with an anti shield weapon and I advance on you....... In the time it take me to regenate 100 points of HP you could have 150 assuming Catmer's fit vs my own. 1 second later 120 vs 200 140 vs 250 170 vs 300 etc.....
Yes, but taken out of spreadsheets, the Armor would likely win in a 1v1, given the already greater eHP, and the lack of need to hide, besides to avoid damage. Where the shield has to avoid damage during recharge, the armor could advance, and hit the shield when he's focusing on hiding, not fighting.
Kinda how the cloak n' shot scouts are so deadly. Only a good deal less cheaty.
I Live for Tears
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Ydubbs81
Ahrendee Mercenaries
2
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Posted - 2014.12.01 03:29:00 -
[140] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:
But Repair Tools and Shield Transporters (or lack thereof) are design flaws.
Give a Shield suit a Shield Transponder and arguably they are on the same if not greater capacity than armour (I have no issue with this at all) and is only not current in the game as a result of CCP's current stance relating to the release if content in Dust.
You are comparing something that is in the game with something that "should be in the game".
That's my point...I'm illustrating what armor has now that shields does not. |
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Lloyd Orfay
Kinsho Swords
Caldari State
243
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Posted - 2014.12.01 03:30:00 -
[141] - Quote
The wide majority of infantry suits have:
Poor shield regeneration values
Very long shield delay/depleted delay times
The damage profiles on weaponry(and the trend of ridiculous high alpha damage plus this the stealth abuse issue in this game) make it so that nearly all weapons can have a vicious effectiveness on shields. It wouldn't make sense for a 60 point damage gun to have 30% more power against shielding when shields have the disadvantage of less HP and the gun is already so powerful.
You need to have high shield HP to live, to improve your bad shield delay, and your bad shield recharge value.
Three modules you need to get for basic survival when shield tanking, which is a heavy investment.
With armour on infantry, you have:
Ability to round up a very large sum of HP in armour
No weapon has any extreme damage profile advantages against armour besides explosives, which not many people use in the first place.
Some modules don't follow the more HP layout of armour, and this allows shielding modules to give more HP than them (e.g., reactive plates)
Regardless you can get past this.
Some suits can tank enough armour to match that of a heavy suit, be only a little bit slowed, and once you have 10 HP/s in armour and up you can have better survivability than shielding(because of how armour regeneration being quite close to instant on infantry where shielding you have to wait often over 3 seconds, which is enough time for someone to find and kill you)
Besides this, you hardly need to invest in modules or skills for armour.
There has been recent high HP stacking of shields, but as stated before the weapons can combat this easily.
With vehicles there's this:
Unnecessary AV buffs and many cutoffs from vehicles have made it so that survivability is really low unless you have level five in most of the shield tree.
Shields on vehicles cannot have their delay time changed, only depleted time, and cannot improve recharge time unless you have proto shield boosters.
The wide majority of AV methods have affective damage profiles against armour.
Swarms and forgeguns are actually effective ways of fighting shields, because swarms are universally overpowered at basic+ and all advanced+ forgeguns are quite a bit ridiculous, especially because of their range.
They can survive Unfair methods of AV like steathily planting RE's on them, unless if they were advanced+ and the vehicle wasn't slightly dual tanked when fluxed. Jihad jeeping is a may thing.
Armour on vehicles, at armour regeneration at five and with other things it may be possible for you to outregenerate the damage, but it will take heavy SP cost.
The wide majority of AV methods are hypereffective against armour based vehicles.
Impractical methods like steathily throwing RE's and jihad jeeping can be done with little to no difficulty and can take ground out then and there. They may be able to survive jihad jeeping.
Dropships are a no go, because unless you are using something like complex CPU/PG upgrades to tank as much HP as possible, they are far too slow to survive.
ADS have better maneuverability, but as they have less HP and very butchered levels of pg/cpu(like most of the vehicles)
it's possible for a swarmer to down them in all 3 volleys, and this can usually be done in 4 seconds or less.
Because of the swarm launcher having an excessive lock time, like how forgeguns have an excessive effective range, it is usually not possibly to escape without an afterburner, hardener, or booster. Swarm users often, even with these things, get the third volley to fire(because any tiny bit of skilling into swarms will make the lock on time less than one second.) Besides this without proto or so it will take time for the module to recharge, keeping you out of the battlefield for quite a bit.
Caldari ADS have the same issue as the other caldari vehicles and same for the gallente ones.
Unless you don't have your gallente vehicles hyped up on regen they won't outperform the caldari ones.
Regardless, Shields and armour for everything is in a bad state.
My Isk payout gets lower and lower the more I play, even though I'm getting better. Smells like success.
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
15258
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 03:32:00 -
[142] - Quote
Ydubbs81 wrote:True Adamance wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:Ydubbs81 wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:Of course, you are right in that solo armor suits vs solo shield suits lose because of the lack of regen. solo armor suits vs solo shield suits will win....shield regen can't help you in an engagement unless there is a lot of cover. In open space and equal skill..the armor suit has the advantage. And even then, my friend, the armor will just advance when your in cover recharging your shields. That's debatable. If you are engaging me with an anti armour weapon and I am engaging with an anti shield weapon and I advance on you....... In the time it take me to regenate 100 points of HP you could have 150 assuming Catmer's fit vs my own. 1 second later 120 vs 200 140 vs 250 170 vs 300 etc..... are you taking into the account that armor doesn't have a delay while the shield suit has to wait seconds before they start to regen? Any one of my guns reloads faster than it would take my shields to start to regen
Yes.
5 seconds.
Catmerc's fit has a delay of 2 seconds and 52.65 rep/sec
Mine has constant passive of 20 rep/sec.
Assuming we stop firing at the same time and have five seconds to regen and reload.
20* 5 = 100 armour reps over 5 seconds
(5 seconds - 2 second delay) = 3 seconds @ 52.65 rep/sec
52.65* 3 = 157.95
In this instance I have not regenerated any of my shielding and am engaging you (by in this instance as stated by Meeko approaching your position) with X EHP + my 100 vs you who is now in a superior positions waiting for my arrival.
In 3 more seconds you will have regenerated 315.9 shielding vs my 160 armour.
I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this.
Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
2970
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Posted - 2014.12.01 03:32:00 -
[143] - Quote
Ydubbs81 wrote:Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:I think that if shield suits got a bit more inherent regen, all these complaints would dissolve, and would reach true balance.
Scouts, Im excluding you from the above statement.
New theoretical values:
Assaults:
M: 3/4 delays, 30 recharge rate
C: 5/6 delays, 35 recharge rate
Commandos:
M: 6/8 delays, 25 recharge rate
C: 7/9 delays, 30 recharge rate
Sentinels:
Minmitar and Cladari both get the shield delays of the current Caldari sentinel.
Logi's:
I have no idea what the current stats are, and thus no reference for balance. If you have time to regen, 30 - 50 is definitely adequate. In order to truly make place them on the same page, you would have to give some of the advantages that armor has to shields. Give logis the ability to rep shields through a fight like they can with armor. Or, a nanohive that allows shields to recharge through damage like armor has. Or, keep the shield depleted delay but remove the regular shield recovery delay like armor has. Buff shield extender hp. Implement a shield mod that gives hp bonus and shield recharge bonus. Place damage mods on low slots, etc I know some of these suggestions may sound extra but it's the point that I'm making that's more important.
I like the idea of rep tools setting shield delay to 0, and giving a static multiplier to recharge rates, as well as repairing armor.
I think my values and the above change would really balance shields and armor.
"Minja" and "Masochist" are synonyms.
FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ
I piss Remote Explosives and shit Shotgun shells.
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
15258
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 03:33:00 -
[144] - Quote
Ydubbs81 wrote:True Adamance wrote:
But Repair Tools and Shield Transporters (or lack thereof) are design flaws.
Give a Shield suit a Shield Transponder and arguably they are on the same if not greater capacity than armour (I have no issue with this at all) and is only not current in the game as a result of CCP's current stance relating to the release if content in Dust.
You are comparing something that is in the game with something that "should be in the game".
That's my point...I'm illustrating what armor has now that shields does not.
Then its not a matter of them being unbalanced vs one another its a matter of having not implemented the correct equipment.
I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this.
Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
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pagl1u M
Dead Man's Game
RUST415
971
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 03:48:00 -
[145] - Quote
1 how can you talk about tanking without talking about playstyle?
2 you cant talk about open space fights without covers, we are not fighting in open arenas, you have to consider every aspect of the game.
One of the few assaults you'll find in a PC match!
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
15259
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 03:57:00 -
[146] - Quote
pagl1u M wrote:1 how can you talk about tanking without talking about playstyle?
2 you cant talk about open space fights without covers, we are not fighting in open arenas, you have to consider every aspect of the game.
You can't. You can only argue numbers. Which I have done.
I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this.
Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
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Ace Boone
Capital Acquisitions LLC
501
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 05:26:00 -
[147] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:True Adamance wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
I would like to start (or revisit) this conversation to see where the community's head is at as far as which is the more effective choice. I've had arguments with Cat Merc because he feels that armor tanking gets the short end of the stick and I can't believe how he could think that. Shield suits, tanks, ADS are at a disadvantage to armor suits in so many ways. And I just read a thread about shields vs armor in the feedback section and I want to open up the dialogue on this.
I'll start by saying I think that armor tanking beats out shield tanking, generally, more times than not. If you shield tank as opposed to armor or dual tank then you have to play the scared role. Even as a cal heavy....you are subject to flux grenades and +20% scrambler rifle (most OP rifle in the game) ammunition. Shields are your first line of defense. If your first line is your major line of defense and it is gone rapidly, you are strung out of luck. If you armor tank, and you get surprised and lose your shields to a flux or a scrambler rifle...you still have time to react and enough health to defend yourself.
I can really go further but I'd like to open up the floor for discussion...
Nope the Shield HAV is statistically better than the Armour HAV. Better fitting capacity (evinced by the "EHP ***** Sica" which can fit a whole proto line up and field 9K EHP vs Explosive AV) Better tracking and mobility optiions that reduce the penalties of slow tracking turrets Comprable and better EHP values Better stand and deliver capacity Better passive regen capacity (168 per second without even fitting a module after 4 seconds) Access to fitting modules without sacrificing racial tank all of that sounds good but can a shield rail or blaster beat a maddy blaster 1v1? Even a maddy rail has advantages. I don't know much about the fitting requirements of a maddy but most of the health is in the low slots and they can still have dmg mods without sacrificing health.
I agree that Maddys are better in combat, however, it is very hard to actually fit damage mods on a Madrugar without completely sacrificing most of your PG/CPU. That's why a fuel injector is always the go-to module.
Only loyal to the republic.
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Ace Boone
Capital Acquisitions LLC
501
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 05:28:00 -
[148] - Quote
DeadlyAztec11 wrote:The Minmatar Assault needs a lot better base regen because right now using shield charging mods is a waste because they just don't do enough given our amount of shields and base stats.
It's always better to opt for stacking shield mods on the Minmatar Assault rather than running a recharging mod and thar shouldn't be.
I run two complex regs, one complex kincat and a complex reactive. I love my low slots.
My highs, however, I hate doing. Because energizers sacrifice shields in the name of regen and rechargers just don't give you enough bang.
I feel like there truly is, no "perfect fit" for the Min assault because of the base shield regen.
Only loyal to the republic.
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hfderrtgvcd
1400
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 05:30:00 -
[149] - Quote
Ace Boone wrote:DeadlyAztec11 wrote:The Minmatar Assault needs a lot better base regen because right now using shield charging mods is a waste because they just don't do enough given our amount of shields and base stats.
It's always better to opt for stacking shield mods on the Minmatar Assault rather than running a recharging mod and thar shouldn't be. I run two complex regs, one complex kincat and a complex reactive. I love my low slots. My highs, however, I hate doing. Because energizers sacrifice shields in the name of regen and rechargers just don't give you enough bang. I feel like there truly is, no "perfect fit" for the Min assault because of the base shield regen.
3 shields
1 energizer
1 regulator
3 reactive plates
Energizers give you a huge regen bonus for a minute hp penalty.
You can't fight in here! This is the war room.
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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
8653
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 05:33:00 -
[150] - Quote
Main issue is that people don't know how to properly fit Shield suits as well as have the correct playstyle for them. People just want to run around and cowboy bebop all over the place no matter their method of defense.
We all know that to run shield suits to their full potential you actually have to use some intelligence, which we have seen the DUST community severely lacks.
CCP holds the Caldari's hand so this doesn't happen again.
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