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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
3490
   |
Posted - 2014.12.01 00:58:00 -
[31] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
I would like to start (or revisit) this conversation to see where the community's head is at as far as which is the more effective choice. I've had arguments with Cat Merc because he feels that armor tanking gets the short end of the stick and I can't believe how he could think that. Shield suits, tanks, ADS are at a disadvantage to armor suits in so many ways. And I just read a thread about shields vs armor in the feedback section and I want to open up the dialogue on this.
I'll start by saying I think that armor tanking beats out shield tanking, generally, more times than not. If you shield tank as opposed to armor or dual tank then you have to play the scared role. Even as a cal heavy....you are subject to flux grenades and +20% scrambler rifle (most OP rifle in the game) ammunition. Shields are your first line of defense. If your first line is your major line of defense and it is gone rapidly, you are strung out of luck. If you armor tank, and you get surprised and lose your shields to a flux or a scrambler rifle...you still have time to react and enough health to defend yourself.
I can really go further but I'd like to open up the floor for discussion...
We've had these conversations quite a long time ago dubbs. I believe armor no longer gets the short end of the stick, but neither do shields. They're fairly balanced, you've just got to realize that they come with different play styles.
So, you've changed your mind? :)
> Check RND out here
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
13454
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Posted - 2014.12.01 01:00:00 -
[32] - Quote
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:Ace Boone wrote:Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:All shields need are better inherent regen on the shield tanking suits (i.e. lower delays and higher recharge rates)
Minmitar suits should have lowest delays, but not as high shield HP or recharge rate as Caldari.
However, all min/cal suits (except for scouts) need better shield regen stats inherently. My min assaults regen is a bit disappointing unless I put on regulators. Armor reps through damage, and HP tanking is more effective because of that. If Shields repped through damage, they would be OP, but since armor does, it's the best imo. But I shield tank everything, so what am I saying. Exactly. People often forget that armor regen, especially on Gallente suits, is crazy good in combat. In the time it takes a scout to decloak, an 800 HP gal assault with full strafe speed and triple damage mods can recover 80+ armor with ease, even while being hit.
80 armor is about 2.5 bullets from most weapons on the battlefield.
I also don't see how we regenerate 80 armor in the time it takes a scout to decloak.
Getting 30hp/s is the absolute max you will see on a Gallente Assault, and that will usually limit you to 500-600 armor HP with speed penalties.
20hp/s and about 520 armor HP and 8m/s is what I usually run on my Gal Assaults.
I can build a Cal Assault with 50hp/s, 600 shields, 8m/s sprint and 1-2 second delays.
The only advantage my Gal Assault gets over the Cal Assault are the two damage mods.
When it comes to pure tank, the Cal Assault is superior in most ways.
Considering it takes 1 second for a scout to decloak and fire his gun...
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
13454
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Posted - 2014.12.01 01:01:00 -
[33] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
I would like to start (or revisit) this conversation to see where the community's head is at as far as which is the more effective choice. I've had arguments with Cat Merc because he feels that armor tanking gets the short end of the stick and I can't believe how he could think that. Shield suits, tanks, ADS are at a disadvantage to armor suits in so many ways. And I just read a thread about shields vs armor in the feedback section and I want to open up the dialogue on this.
I'll start by saying I think that armor tanking beats out shield tanking, generally, more times than not. If you shield tank as opposed to armor or dual tank then you have to play the scared role. Even as a cal heavy....you are subject to flux grenades and +20% scrambler rifle (most OP rifle in the game) ammunition. Shields are your first line of defense. If your first line is your major line of defense and it is gone rapidly, you are strung out of luck. If you armor tank, and you get surprised and lose your shields to a flux or a scrambler rifle...you still have time to react and enough health to defend yourself.
I can really go further but I'd like to open up the floor for discussion...
We've had these conversations quite a long time ago dubbs. I believe armor no longer gets the short end of the stick, but neither do shields. They're fairly balanced, you've just got to realize that they come with different play styles. So, you've changed your mind? :)
Yes, after the armor buffs back in 1.4(?), and the shield buffs in the various hotfixes, I think armor and shields are fairly balanced for infantry.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
13454
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Posted - 2014.12.01 01:07:00 -
[34] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:hfderrtgvcd wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:hfderrtgvcd wrote:They're pretty balanced imo. Shields have better speed and regen with a delay while armor has better hp without a delay. The only thing that needs to be fixed is the higher cpu/pg of shield extenders and the poor delays on the min and cal assaults. why do you say they have better speed? armor plates have speed penalties. Unless you're talking about ferroscales, which makes the hp difference much smaller. right...even the ferroscale plates have more hp than the shield extenders. If you want even more tank and be even more ridiculous you can sacrifice a little speed. Hell, armor tankers even have a mod that gives them hp and armor regen combined. I wish shield suits had a mod that had dual benefits.
Your BASE regen is exceptionally powerful, we have to sacrifice slots to get any decent regen.
You can't simply look at Ferroscales HP vs Shield Extender HP and say that ferroscales are better.
That 10 extra HP regenerates much slower without mods, and if you fit reppers you can fit less ferroscales, which means the HP difference becomes non existent. (In fact, when building ferro suits, my Cal Assault tends to out HP my Gal Assault)
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
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DeadlyAztec11
Ostrakon Agency
6232
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 01:08:00 -
[35] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:DeadlyAztec11 wrote:The Minmatar Assault needs a lot better base regen because right now using shield charging mods is a waste because they just don't do enough given our amount of shields and base stats.
It's always better to opt for stacking shield mods on the Minmatar Assault rather than running a recharging mod and thar shouldn't be. The winmatar assault has so many advantages that I can understand the regen not being up to par.....and I love minmatar :)
Yeah, but the deal is that the Caldari should really be the shield tankers. While the Minmatar should be shield re energizers. I.E they should be able to quickly attack and then leave to recharge quickly then pop out again.
Ideally they should mirror the relationship between the Amarr and Gallente I.E the Amarr stack armor while the Gallente stack reps to recover quickly.
Currently the Caldari and Minmatar symbiosis is wack because right now the Minmatar is just a faster weaker Caldari suit, but it should be more than that. The Minmatar should have the best shield recharge and it should be a viable playing style.
Put your flags up in the sky.
And wave them side to side.
Show the world where you're from.
Show the world we are one.
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
2969
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Posted - 2014.12.01 01:09:00 -
[36] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:Ace Boone wrote:Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:All shields need are better inherent regen on the shield tanking suits (i.e. lower delays and higher recharge rates)
Minmitar suits should have lowest delays, but not as high shield HP or recharge rate as Caldari.
However, all min/cal suits (except for scouts) need better shield regen stats inherently. My min assaults regen is a bit disappointing unless I put on regulators. Armor reps through damage, and HP tanking is more effective because of that. If Shields repped through damage, they would be OP, but since armor does, it's the best imo. But I shield tank everything, so what am I saying. Exactly. People often forget that armor regen, especially on Gallente suits, is crazy good in combat. In the time it takes a scout to decloak, an 800 HP gal assault with full strafe speed and triple damage mods can recover 80+ armor with ease, even while being hit. 80 armor is about 2.5 bullets from most weapons on the battlefield. I also don't see how we regenerate 80 armor in the time it takes a scout to decloak. Getting 30hp/s is the absolute max you will see on a Gallente Assault, and that will usually limit you to 500-600 armor HP with speed penalties. 20hp/s and about 520 armor HP and 8m/s is what I usually run on my Gal Assaults. I can build a Cal Assault with 50hp/s, 600 shields, 8m/s sprint and 1-2 second delays. The only advantage my Gal Assault gets over the Cal Assault are the two damage mods. When it comes to pure tank, the Cal Assault is superior in most ways. Considering it takes 1 second for a scout to decloak and fire his gun...
Its 4 seconds from the beginning of the decloak.
A well fit Gal Assault will have 800 total HP, and ~23 reps per second (2 complex reppers)
"Minja" and "Masochist" are synonyms.
FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ
I piss Remote Explosives and shit Shotgun shells.
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Nocturnal Soul
Primordial Threat
4689
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Posted - 2014.12.01 01:10:00 -
[37] - Quote
The Amarr generally don't hp stack... we resistance tank
(Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
LASERS BTCH!!!!!!
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
15253
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Posted - 2014.12.01 01:11:00 -
[38] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:True Adamance wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
I would like to start (or revisit) this conversation to see where the community's head is at as far as which is the more effective choice. I've had arguments with Cat Merc because he feels that armor tanking gets the short end of the stick and I can't believe how he could think that. Shield suits, tanks, ADS are at a disadvantage to armor suits in so many ways. And I just read a thread about shields vs armor in the feedback section and I want to open up the dialogue on this.
I'll start by saying I think that armor tanking beats out shield tanking, generally, more times than not. If you shield tank as opposed to armor or dual tank then you have to play the scared role. Even as a cal heavy....you are subject to flux grenades and +20% scrambler rifle (most OP rifle in the game) ammunition. Shields are your first line of defense. If your first line is your major line of defense and it is gone rapidly, you are strung out of luck. If you armor tank, and you get surprised and lose your shields to a flux or a scrambler rifle...you still have time to react and enough health to defend yourself.
I can really go further but I'd like to open up the floor for discussion...
Nope the Shield HAV is statistically better than the Armour HAV. Better fitting capacity (evinced by the "EHP ***** Sica" which can fit a whole proto line up and field 9K EHP vs Explosive AV) Better tracking and mobility optiions that reduce the penalties of slow tracking turrets Comprable and better EHP values Better stand and deliver capacity Better passive regen capacity (168 per second without even fitting a module after 4 seconds) Access to fitting modules without sacrificing racial tank all of that sounds good but can a shield rail or blaster beat a maddy blaster 1v1? Even a maddy rail has advantages. I don't know much about the fitting requirements of a maddy but most of the health is in the low slots and they can still have dmg mods without sacrificing health.
That's debatable. Really too many factors to consider.
Blasters are anti-shield weapons specifically, moreover beyond that there are only two of more than a dozen anti-shield AV options. Now in many respects I would suggest that a Blaster Gunnlogi has a fair chance due to its naturally higher EHP however the strength of Gallente tanks becomes apparent in long engagement.
Why would you ever need to?
But when you can have significantly more EHP than your opponent why not simply take the better option and go for missiles and Railguns both of which have range, DPS, and Anti Armour values over shields.
But lets look at two comparable fits.
Madrugar - Ion Cannon
1x ComplexArmour Hardener
2x Complex Heavy Armour Repairers
(CPU is already over allotment before I even turn to damage modules or Scanners)
((Genuinely am trying but cannot fit a damage module without sacrificing down to Standard Armour Modules or CPU extender))
instead
1x Basic Armour Hardener
2x Advanced Heavy Armour Repairer
1x Basic Nitrous
1x Basic Scanner
You have
1200 Shield 4000 Armour
5000 Armour EHP
Passive reps at 225 per second.
On my Gunnlogi - Ion Cannon'
1x Complex Shield Extender
1x Basic Blaster Damage Module
1x Complex Shield Hardener
1x Complex 120mm Armour Plating
1x Complex PG Extender
I have
3950 Shield and 3385 Armour
5530 Shield EHP
Passive reps during Blaster Cool down @ 168 (no modules required)
+10% damage
Now while in a head on fight the Gunnlogi probably loses with Blasters due to the modifiers vs Armour it will almost always better to go with Rails or Missiles in which during another head on engagement it always wins.
But surely you can see right here the disparity in terms of fitting potential Hell even a Sica would give a Madrugar a run for its money with Rails or Missiles.
I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this.
Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
13454
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 01:13:00 -
[39] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
I would like to start (or revisit) this conversation to see where the community's head is at as far as which is the more effective choice. I've had arguments with Cat Merc because he feels that armor tanking gets the short end of the stick and I can't believe how he could think that. Shield suits, tanks, ADS are at a disadvantage to armor suits in so many ways. And I just read a thread about shields vs armor in the feedback section and I want to open up the dialogue on this.
I'll start by saying I think that armor tanking beats out shield tanking, generally, more times than not. If you shield tank as opposed to armor or dual tank then you have to play the scared role. Even as a cal heavy....you are subject to flux grenades and +20% scrambler rifle (most OP rifle in the game) ammunition. Shields are your first line of defense. If your first line is your major line of defense and it is gone rapidly, you are strung out of luck. If you armor tank, and you get surprised and lose your shields to a flux or a scrambler rifle...you still have time to react and enough health to defend yourself.
I can really go further but I'd like to open up the floor for discussion...
We've had these conversations quite a long time ago dubbs. I believe armor no longer gets the short end of the stick, but neither do shields. They're fairly balanced, you've just got to realize that they come with different play styles. I do agree there is no 'real' OP suit at the moment. It is based primarily on play style. But there is more advantages to armor tank as opposed to shield tanking. And I'm thinking mostly...during 1v1 encounters. Because anyone can shoot you in the back or destroy your tank if they have you flanked.
No, not at all.
If an Armor suit has more HP than a shield suit, it either has extremely weak regen, which makes it poor at multiple close engagements, or extremely slow, which makes it closer to a sentinel than an Assault.
I have more problems with Caldari Assaults than with Amarr Assaults, despite my main weapon being anti shield.
Why?
Because Amarr Assaults can't strafe for crap.
Same for plated Gallente.
I also do not see what you're trying to imply with flanking.
HP is HP, whatever pool of HP you lose first doesn't matter, if you lost 500 HP of shields I probably lost my 200 shields and 300 armor, leaving us both equally ******.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
3492
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 01:14:00 -
[40] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:hfderrtgvcd wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:hfderrtgvcd wrote:They're pretty balanced imo. Shields have better speed and regen with a delay while armor has better hp without a delay. The only thing that needs to be fixed is the higher cpu/pg of shield extenders and the poor delays on the min and cal assaults. why do you say they have better speed? armor plates have speed penalties. Unless you're talking about ferroscales, which makes the hp difference much smaller. right...even the ferroscale plates have more hp than the shield extenders. If you want even more tank and be even more ridiculous you can sacrifice a little speed. Hell, armor tankers even have a mod that gives them hp and armor regen combined. I wish shield suits had a mod that had dual benefits. Your BASE regen is exceptionally powerful, we have to sacrifice slots to get any decent regen. You can't simply look at Ferroscales HP vs Shield Extender HP and say that ferroscales are better. That 10 extra HP regenerates much slower without mods, and if you fit reppers you can fit less ferroscales, which means the HP difference becomes non existent. (In fact, when building ferro suits, my Cal Assault tends to out HP my Gal Assault)
Our base regen is 30 and the more we use the more the delay for regen is penalized.
But it isn't about just the numbers on the suit. I'm talking about effectiveness. You can stack 4 ferroscales and a repper on a gal assault with a triage nanohive AND use damage mods without sacrificing the majority of where your health comes from. Plus, armor is the second line of defense, so you also have shield regen to help protect you as well.
> Check RND out here
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
3492
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 01:14:00 -
[41] - Quote
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:Ace Boone wrote:Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:All shields need are better inherent regen on the shield tanking suits (i.e. lower delays and higher recharge rates)
Minmitar suits should have lowest delays, but not as high shield HP or recharge rate as Caldari.
However, all min/cal suits (except for scouts) need better shield regen stats inherently. My min assaults regen is a bit disappointing unless I put on regulators. Armor reps through damage, and HP tanking is more effective because of that. If Shields repped through damage, they would be OP, but since armor does, it's the best imo. But I shield tank everything, so what am I saying. Exactly. People often forget that armor regen, especially on Gallente suits, is crazy good in combat. In the time it takes a scout to decloak, an 800 HP gal assault with full strafe speed and triple damage mods can recover 80+ armor with ease, even while being hit. 80 armor is about 2.5 bullets from most weapons on the battlefield. I also don't see how we regenerate 80 armor in the time it takes a scout to decloak. Getting 30hp/s is the absolute max you will see on a Gallente Assault, and that will usually limit you to 500-600 armor HP with speed penalties. 20hp/s and about 520 armor HP and 8m/s is what I usually run on my Gal Assaults. I can build a Cal Assault with 50hp/s, 600 shields, 8m/s sprint and 1-2 second delays. The only advantage my Gal Assault gets over the Cal Assault are the two damage mods. When it comes to pure tank, the Cal Assault is superior in most ways. Considering it takes 1 second for a scout to decloak and fire his gun... Its 4 seconds from the beginning of the decloak. A well fit Gal Assault will have 800 total HP, and ~23 reps per second (2 complex reppers)
preach
> Check RND out here
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
13454
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 01:16:00 -
[42] - Quote
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:Ace Boone wrote:Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:All shields need are better inherent regen on the shield tanking suits (i.e. lower delays and higher recharge rates)
Minmitar suits should have lowest delays, but not as high shield HP or recharge rate as Caldari.
However, all min/cal suits (except for scouts) need better shield regen stats inherently. My min assaults regen is a bit disappointing unless I put on regulators. Armor reps through damage, and HP tanking is more effective because of that. If Shields repped through damage, they would be OP, but since armor does, it's the best imo. But I shield tank everything, so what am I saying. Exactly. People often forget that armor regen, especially on Gallente suits, is crazy good in combat. In the time it takes a scout to decloak, an 800 HP gal assault with full strafe speed and triple damage mods can recover 80+ armor with ease, even while being hit. 80 armor is about 2.5 bullets from most weapons on the battlefield. I also don't see how we regenerate 80 armor in the time it takes a scout to decloak. Getting 30hp/s is the absolute max you will see on a Gallente Assault, and that will usually limit you to 500-600 armor HP with speed penalties. 20hp/s and about 520 armor HP and 8m/s is what I usually run on my Gal Assaults. I can build a Cal Assault with 50hp/s, 600 shields, 8m/s sprint and 1-2 second delays. The only advantage my Gal Assault gets over the Cal Assault are the two damage mods. When it comes to pure tank, the Cal Assault is superior in most ways. Considering it takes 1 second for a scout to decloak and fire his gun... Its 4 seconds from the beginning of the decloak. A well fit Gal Assault will have 800 total HP, and ~23 reps per second (2 complex reppers)
Since when is it 4 seconds?
Also, if it's 4 seconds, then my Cal Assault would already have 50HP regenerated, and given an extra second it would go up to 100HP, already catching up to the Gal Assault, and then surpassing it at the 3rd second.
Also, I believe the Gal Assault you are describing doesn't have a kin cat, correct?
If so my Cal Assault would also move about 1m/s faster.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
13454
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 01:17:00 -
[43] - Quote
http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/136/3719
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
3492
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 01:20:00 -
[44] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:Cat Merc wrote:[quote=Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p]
Considering it takes 1 second for a scout to decloak and fire his gun... Its 4 seconds from the beginning of the decloak. A well fit Gal Assault will have 800 total HP, and ~23 reps per second (2 complex reppers) Since when is it 4 seconds? Also, if it's 4 seconds, then my Cal Assault would already have 50HP regenerated, and given an extra second it would go up to 100HP, already catching up to the Gal Assault, and then surpassing it at the 3rd second. Also, I believe the Gal Assault you are describing doesn't have a kin cat, correct? If so my Cal Assault would also move about 1m/s faster.
How will that 1m/s help you in a 1v1 gun fight?
> Check RND out here
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
13454
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 01:22:00 -
[45] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:Cat Merc wrote:[quote=Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p]
Considering it takes 1 second for a scout to decloak and fire his gun... Its 4 seconds from the beginning of the decloak. A well fit Gal Assault will have 800 total HP, and ~23 reps per second (2 complex reppers) Since when is it 4 seconds? Also, if it's 4 seconds, then my Cal Assault would already have 50HP regenerated, and given an extra second it would go up to 100HP, already catching up to the Gal Assault, and then surpassing it at the 3rd second. Also, I believe the Gal Assault you are describing doesn't have a kin cat, correct? If so my Cal Assault would also move about 1m/s faster. How will that 1m/s help you in a 1v1 gun fight?
In many ways, be creative.
You have the mentality of a brick tanker, you can't see anything past DPS and HP.
There is a reason I fit kin cats on my Gal Assault, there is a reason I fit reactive/ferroscale plates instead of the heavy plates.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
2969
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Posted - 2014.12.01 01:23:00 -
[46] - Quote
The cal assault has ok shield regen.
Try making a good min assault shield regen fit, compared to a gal assault.
"Minja" and "Masochist" are synonyms.
FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ
I piss Remote Explosives and shit Shotgun shells.
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
3492
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 01:24:00 -
[47] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:
You have the mentality of a brick tanker, you can't see anything past DPS and HP.
There is a reason I fit kin cats on my Gal Assault.
Your kin cats can't help you in a 1v1 gun fight. You must be thinking about survival and running for cover. And in that case, any suit can best any suit given the right situation. I'm talking about a gal and a cal assault suit 1v1.
Maybe if there was a bonus to strafe with kin cats but there isn't.
> Check RND out here
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
13454
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Posted - 2014.12.01 01:25:00 -
[48] - Quote
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:The cal assault has ok shield regen. Try making a good min assault shield regen fit, compared to a gal assault.
The Min Assault is far faster, has ridiculously good stamina regen, and small built in bonuses like the Hacking speed bonus. (While small, it's still there)
They are incomparable, the Caldari Assault is a mirror image of the Gallente Assault, hence a better fit for comparison.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
13454
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 01:28:00 -
[49] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Cat Merc wrote:
You have the mentality of a brick tanker, you can't see anything past DPS and HP.
There is a reason I fit kin cats on my Gal Assault.
Your kin cats can't help you in a 1v1 gun fight. You must be thinking about survival and running for cover. And in that case, any suit can best any suit given the right situation. I'm talking about a gal and a cal assault suit 1v1. Maybe if there was a bonus to strafe with kin cats but there isn't.
Remember what I said about play style?
I put myself in advantageous situations, I don't straight up attack people I see.
I will make sure that you cannot win this fight, and speed helps me get to these advantageous situations.
HP helps me more when I'm attacked, speed helps me more when I'm attacking.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
15254
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Posted - 2014.12.01 01:32:00 -
[50] - Quote
You dun dimed these sceptical fellows Catmerc.
They mistake "potential to stack" for "effectiveness while".
Catmerc mentioned in passing a point that he has. EHP works when attacked, speed works when attacking. Amarr are naturally slow, this slow speed makes them poor reactionary suits.
Would I rather run 1-1.5 m/s faster or have an additional 400 EHP?
Answer is easily movement speed so I can kite out to range.
I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this.
Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
3492
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Posted - 2014.12.01 01:32:00 -
[51] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Cat Merc wrote:
You have the mentality of a brick tanker, you can't see anything past DPS and HP.
There is a reason I fit kin cats on my Gal Assault.
Your kin cats can't help you in a 1v1 gun fight. You must be thinking about survival and running for cover. And in that case, any suit can best any suit given the right situation. I'm talking about a gal and a cal assault suit 1v1. Maybe if there was a bonus to strafe with kin cats but there isn't. Remember what I said about play style? I put myself in advantageous situations, I don't straight up attack people I see. I will make sure that you cannot win this fight, and speed helps me get to these advantageous situations. HP helps me more when I'm attacked, speed helps me more when I'm attacking.
Right and although some suits are better for that playstyle, any suit, regardless of fit, (besides heavies and logis) can pretty much play that sort of way.
One can see Cal Assaults, Min Assaults, Gal Assaults, and especially Amarr assaults play that sort of way.
My motivation is just bringing up advantages/disadvantages of shield vs armor tanking once engaged.
If you want to talk playstyle, then we can go there as well and determine which suit is best for that playstyle regardless of what else is opposing you on the battlefield.
> Check RND out here
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
3492
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 01:33:00 -
[52] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:You dun dimed these sceptical fellows Catmerc. They mistake "potential to stack" for "effectiveness while". Sure an Amarr Assault can reach 1200 EHP. Do I do that and is it Effective? No I don't I run two ferros, two reppers, and a kin cat. Speed and Regen are tops.
Well, I don't think that anyone plays with a maxed out Cal or Min assault suit either.
> Check RND out here
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
13455
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Posted - 2014.12.01 01:34:00 -
[53] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
Our base regen is 30 and the more we use the more the delay for regen is penalized.
But it isn't about just the numbers on the suit. I'm talking about effectiveness. You can stack 4 ferroscales and a repper on a gal assault with a triage nanohive AND use damage mods without sacrificing the majority of where your health comes from. Plus, armor is the second line of defense, so you also have shield regen to help protect you as well.
30hp/s is exceptionally powerful, we need 3 module slots to get that.
You get an extra 20hp/s from one module, and have modules to cut that delay to 2-3 seconds.
That's not even mentioning Cal Scouts and their built in 50hp/s and low delays lol
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
13455
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 01:36:00 -
[54] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Cat Merc wrote:
You have the mentality of a brick tanker, you can't see anything past DPS and HP.
There is a reason I fit kin cats on my Gal Assault.
Your kin cats can't help you in a 1v1 gun fight. You must be thinking about survival and running for cover. And in that case, any suit can best any suit given the right situation. I'm talking about a gal and a cal assault suit 1v1. Maybe if there was a bonus to strafe with kin cats but there isn't. Remember what I said about play style? I put myself in advantageous situations, I don't straight up attack people I see. I will make sure that you cannot win this fight, and speed helps me get to these advantageous situations. HP helps me more when I'm attacked, speed helps me more when I'm attacking. Right and although some suits are better for that playstyle, any suit, regardless of fit, (besides heavies and logis) can pretty much play that sort of way. One can see Cal Assaults, Min Assaults, Gal Assaults, and especially Amarr assaults play that sort of way. My motivation is just bringing up advantages/disadvantages of shield vs armor tanking once engaged. If you want to talk playstyle, then we can go there as well and determine which suit is best for that playstyle regardless of what else is opposing you on the battlefield.
I'm saying that you use those two tanks differently.
You can't use a shield suit and an armor suit and expect to play them the same way.
And while true that all suits play the way I describe, my extra speed allows me to get the upper hand on most suits, and do it quicker than anyone else.
As a sidenote, that's why Scouts are so exceptionally powerful at being Assaults.
They have scans that allow them to figure out the best position to be in, and then they have the high base speed that allows them to get to that position quicker than other suits.
It's a powerful combo and you can see it being used to great effect on the battlefield.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
3492
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 01:37:00 -
[55] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
Our base regen is 30 and the more we use the more the delay for regen is penalized.
But it isn't about just the numbers on the suit. I'm talking about effectiveness. You can stack 4 ferroscales and a repper on a gal assault with a triage nanohive AND use damage mods without sacrificing the majority of where your health comes from. Plus, armor is the second line of defense, so you also have shield regen to help protect you as well.
30hp/s is exceptionally powerful, we need 3 module slots to get that. You get an extra 20hp/s from one module, and have modules to cut that delay to 2-3 seconds. That's not even mentioning Cal Scouts and their built in 50hp/s and low delays lol
:) everyone screams regen when it comes to shield dropsuits because that's the only advantage it seems to have. I've already named at least 2 or 3 advantages to armor tanking in this thread.
> Check RND out here
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
3492
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 01:38:00 -
[56] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Cat Merc wrote:
You have the mentality of a brick tanker, you can't see anything past DPS and HP.
There is a reason I fit kin cats on my Gal Assault.
Your kin cats can't help you in a 1v1 gun fight. You must be thinking about survival and running for cover. And in that case, any suit can best any suit given the right situation. I'm talking about a gal and a cal assault suit 1v1. Maybe if there was a bonus to strafe with kin cats but there isn't. Remember what I said about play style? I put myself in advantageous situations, I don't straight up attack people I see. I will make sure that you cannot win this fight, and speed helps me get to these advantageous situations. HP helps me more when I'm attacked, speed helps me more when I'm attacking. Right and although some suits are better for that playstyle, any suit, regardless of fit, (besides heavies and logis) can pretty much play that sort of way. One can see Cal Assaults, Min Assaults, Gal Assaults, and especially Amarr assaults play that sort of way. My motivation is just bringing up advantages/disadvantages of shield vs armor tanking once engaged. If you want to talk playstyle, then we can go there as well and determine which suit is best for that playstyle regardless of what else is opposing you on the battlefield. I'm saying that you use those two tanks differently. You can't use a shield suit and an armor suit and expect to play them the same way. And while true that all suits play the way I describe, my extra speed allows me to get the upper hand on most suits, and do it quicker than anyone else. As a sidenote, that's why Scouts are so exceptionally powerful at being Assaults. They have scans that allow them to figure out the best position to be in, and then they have the high base speed that allows them to get to that position quicker than other suits. It's a powerful combo and you can see it being used to great effect on the battlefield.
think we keep circling around two different points.
> Check RND out here
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
13455
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 01:40:00 -
[57] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:
Our base regen is 30 and the more we use the more the delay for regen is penalized.
But it isn't about just the numbers on the suit. I'm talking about effectiveness. You can stack 4 ferroscales and a repper on a gal assault with a triage nanohive AND use damage mods without sacrificing the majority of where your health comes from. Plus, armor is the second line of defense, so you also have shield regen to help protect you as well.
30hp/s is exceptionally powerful, we need 3 module slots to get that. You get an extra 20hp/s from one module, and have modules to cut that delay to 2-3 seconds. That's not even mentioning Cal Scouts and their built in 50hp/s and low delays lol :) everyone screams regen when it comes to shield dropsuits because that's the only advantage it seems to have. I've already named at least 2 or 3 advantages to armor tanking in this thread.
The straight up number of advantages means absolutely nothing.
What matters is the overall net power of all of those advantages combined.
I gave you two example fits that are my cookie cutter Assault fits, and both are equally viable, just played differently.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries
3493
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 01:42:00 -
[58] - Quote
Of course, you would use them differently. But when you're trying to grab objectives or defend them, you may find yourself in an engagement on the objective. Especially in an assault suit where you can't see everyone until they are right up on you.
> Check RND out here
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
15255
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 01:42:00 -
[59] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:True Adamance wrote:You dun dimed these sceptical fellows Catmerc. They mistake "potential to stack" for "effectiveness while". Sure an Amarr Assault can reach 1200 EHP. Do I do that and is it Effective? No I don't I run two ferros, two reppers, and a kin cat. Speed and Regen are tops. Well, I don't think that anyone plays with a maxed out Cal or Min assault suit either.
Min Assault can cap out at 1014.3 EHP...not half bad and has significantly better regen and movement speed.
Currently my Assault has only around about 740 EHP, 20 Armour Reps per second, and 30 Shield reps per second, roughly a net gain of 12% additional light weapon damage, and moves at 8m/s.
I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this.
Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
13455
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 01:42:00 -
[60] - Quote
As a sidenote, the most common weapons on the battlefield, the CR and HMG, are both anti armor 
And before you say the BrAR, it's going to get nerfed, confirmed by Rattati.
So the battlefield will stay an anti armor ruled meta.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
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