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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3676
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Posted - 2014.11.02 18:27:00 -
[1] - Quote
Thor Odinson42 wrote:People that hate needles say a lot about their overall view of teamwork. 100% needles with a squad plus of your own peeps is OP.
I'll take a revive around a contested objective 100% of the time. Even if the enemy waits to shoot me after my revive, they aren't shooting my teammates that are doing work at the objective.
^This.
The change will essentially "buff teamwork."
As fewer and fewer mercs call for revives due to a erroneous fascination with KDR/epeen
the merc who are focused on the win and even more so those who are actively in squads
will hold a larger mechanical advantage than they already do.
The net effect of this change is that a coordinated squad (and to a much lessor extent even a team
oriented solo player) will hold more effective value on the field than they do at present.
My advice is to squad quickly, squad often, and squad with folks who understand teamwork
and that includes the tactical value of being revived. Those who do not are likely to face
consistently harder matches in the days to come.
0.02 ISK
Cross
See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3681
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Posted - 2014.11.02 22:15:00 -
[2] - Quote
/a bit off topic
Regarding KDR
Cross Atu wrote:As I have said more times than I've bothered to count 'kdr' is a bad stat and it should feel bad. It is vague, is it misleading and it is a rather poor measurement to be tracking and displaying at the end of every match. {sic}Leaderboard rankings and general assessments should be derived from effectively playing ones role and contributing meaningfully to the win, not on some ePeen enctric stat like KDR.
- A scout deploying uplinks and providing intel for his team who doesn't get a kill is doing a good job and is valuable
- A logi who dies multiple times providing close support to his squad without a kill is doing a good job and is valuable
- An AV guy who dies multiple times with few or no kills but destroys or suppresses enemy vehicles is doing a good job and is valuable
- A DS pilot who spends the whole match deploying people and providing scans without a single is doing a good job and is valuable
- A merc who avoids contact and hacks points/installations to keep the board "blue" without a single is doing a good job and is valuable
Conversely a merc who spends the whole match kill chasing, or kill stealing, while ignoring where his team is, what is happening with the objectives, etc. is not meaningfully contributing to the win and isn't of much tactical worth. Is killing the enemy relevant? Sure. Should one do it? Of course. Should it be featured and given such inferred wight as it is? Absolutely not. 0.02 ISK Cross
See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3696
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Posted - 2014.11.03 21:20:00 -
[3] - Quote
Bethhy wrote:Cross Atu wrote:Thor Odinson42 wrote:People that hate needles say a lot about their overall view of teamwork. 100% needles with a squad plus of your own peeps is OP.
I'll take a revive around a contested objective 100% of the time. Even if the enemy waits to shoot me after my revive, they aren't shooting my teammates that are doing work at the objective. ^This. The change will essentially "buff teamwork." As fewer and fewer mercs call for revives due to a erroneous fascination with KDR/epeen the merc who are focused on the win and even more so those who are actively in squads will hold a larger mechanical advantage than they already do. The net effect of this change is that a coordinated squad (and to a much lessor extent even a team oriented solo player) will hold more effective value on the field than they do at present. My advice is to squad quickly, squad often, and squad with folks who understand teamwork and that includes the tactical value of being revived. Those who do not are likely to face consistently harder matches in the days to come. 0.02 ISK Cross So your advice is to basically only have a squad if you want needles to be relevant at all... Or pray that someone will fit a needle when you decide to push a button then patiently wait? Like seriously? This does nothing but nerf needles into the ground because the mechanics around the item was setup to abuse players who got picked up because "They have a chance to defend their isk" yet die again regardless of no clone loss. Lets put aside the fact that this fix makes absolutely no sense. Makes even less sense as you try to explain DUST and how it works to your friend who hasn't played it.... As they look at your weird as you try and profess how much sense it makes. It doesn't matter what imaginary world the CSM are living in.... The Squad mechanics in DUST for the average mercenary are terrible... Squad finder is like a joke played on the playerbase... The average DUST player will have no hope AT ALL at using these new needle mechanics that are purposed.... It will be something used be veteran players at best and require more communication and team work then is currently exhibited even in the Height of PC... With the largest longest wars in DUST's history with arguably the best FC's and mercs that have played this game. Remember i have been part of PC since it started, have been part of holding distrcits in PC since it started... Im an Urgent Fury Tournament Champion...
Require more communication and teamwork than is currently exhibited even in the height of PC?
If this statement is true than I should really get back into playing PC consistently, because my average pub squads (which are not composed solely of members from my corp) can consistently use needles to good effect. If we decide to run a tight squad there are usually 2-3 injectors present, a primary with backups for the primary in case he goes down.
Do I think the new mechanics will likely call for some other refinements or changes to truly make them polished? Sure.
But this is hardly a "the sky is falling" moment. Besides, with or without these changes the injector has bigger issues to be addressed. Like the painfully long animation, the "ghost" revive icons, the injection miss fires and the client/server discync which causes injection points to sometimes not even touch the downed body.
Quote:The chance of changing the mechanics of this feature to what is purposed... Will somehow bring out tactics and planned use around the item is like planning that there is gonna be rainbows and sunshine for the rest of your existence.
It's extremely un realistic, Makes no sense in any explanation to someone outside of DUST, Takes away from the game of DUST instead of adds to it, Hurts an entire player class(Logi's) and an entire entrance into the game with new players.
Nanite Injector use should be encouraged amoungst new players in DUST, It allows them to contribute to the team while also helping the team and adding to immersion for all parties included.
I've played Logi since closed beta, I am a dedicated support player to the extent that I was one of those Logi who ran repair tools for my team even when they gave 0 WP for their use. As such I am well aware of how the mechanics work and how many mercs ePeen their way out of revives and how many more will do so with this mechanic.
Which is exactly why it is a buff to cooperative play because all those 'KDR kittens' will be busy bleeding out like civies while players who care about tactics and cooperation will still have the advantages injectors provide.
ps ~ hyperbole is not persuasive
See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3696
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Posted - 2014.11.03 21:28:00 -
[4] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Remove K/D.
Replace with WP/D.
Suddenly the entire meta of DUST changes.
Too much value is placed on K/D by tryhard corps and because of this the most valuable support roles and the people who are best at them will forever be relegated to crap roles.
Most tryhard corps require a minimum k/d.
I'll take 15 new people willing to learn over a buncha retards who stat pad to protect their e-peen any day.
KDR has no value in a combined arms TEAM game. But entirely too much value is assigned to it.
^Accurate.
I'd love to have more than one stat replace the current abysmal mess that is kdr, but even this one simple step would be a huge improvement, at least then it would not bias the game so heavily for and against certain roles.
See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3703
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Posted - 2014.11.04 02:55:00 -
[5] - Quote
Alder King wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:hyperbole is the new evidence, didn't you know?
Like No f**ks given is the new concern.
5 newbies willing to listen & learn is more valuable than a horde of KDR kiddies. You know, my favorite "kdr kiddie" would have to be extacy cravings. Taking to him after a PC match "oh man, i need to go play some pubs or my kdr will drop below 9" EX wasn't the only one like that. I'll take a kdr ***** over since logi any day, because you know were going to win and probably by cloning out the other team
A couple false corollaries there, first being that not all kdr kittens are also combat monsters, you can be both obsessed with a bad stat and bad at the game simultaneously.
Second is the use of Logi in the example, because frankly the role/class is broken right now and undergoing review for an overall rework because of it's present ineffectual baseline.
So boiled down your statement in effect is "I'd take high gun game players over players running an underpowered role because you're more likely to win by clone out"
See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3723
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Posted - 2014.11.05 00:58:00 -
[6] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote:Bethhy wrote:Cross Atu wrote:Require more communication and teamwork than is currently exhibited even in the height of PC?If this statement is true than I should really get back into playing PC consistently, because my average pub squads (which are not composed solely of members from my corp) can consistently use needles to good effect. If we decide to run a tight squad there are usually 2-3 injectors present, a primary with backups for the primary in case he goes down. Do I think the new mechanics will likely call for some other refinements or changes to truly make them polished? Sure. But this is hardly a "the sky is falling" moment. Besides, with or without these changes the injector has bigger issues to be addressed. Like the painfully long animation, the "ghost" revive icons, the injection miss fires and the client/server discync which causes injection points to sometimes not even touch the downed body. I've played Logi since closed beta, I am a dedicated support player to the extent that I was one of those Logi who ran repair tools for my team even when they gave 0 WP for their use. As such I am well aware of how the mechanics work and how many mercs ePeen their way out of revives and how many more will do so with this mechanic. Which is exactly why it is a buff to cooperative play because all those 'KDR kittens' will be busy bleeding out like civies while players who care about tactics and cooperation will still have the advantages injectors provide. ps ~ hyperbole is not persuasive Your trying to convert a pub squad to PC and Pub tactics to PC... They just don't convert unless your playing inexperienced competitive players. Clone packs in PC have limited clones compared to the defenders for a reason.. Yet it isn't the Needle or Logi that makes it relevant.. Which was the intent. In the ultimate forms of competition in DUST from Tournaments to playing PC competition the day it came out to well over a year of play... These changes are un realistic and will kill the use of needles for some hypothetical tactical play and forward communication scenario that wont happen in mass majority through DUST. Taking a feature widely used throughout all DUST with poor game design around it... Then nerfing and limiting the item to "Fix" it is assbackwards. Trying to explain away how it will limit, nerf and hurt players in majority for a few people that didn't want to be picked up because of poor game design around the item. Is mind boggling.. Polishing the feature and everything mentioned has been problems since Closed beta in DUST, then further from the Death screen, (Which again makes no sense why it is present when your clone is merely incapacitated.) People have thousands of posts about these issues. Regardless of how you look at it or what hypothetical situations you think these changes bring amoungst tactics. This Purposed change overall takes away from the game. and adds nothing. This is a big problem and sadly becoming a trend here. Bethhy does have a point here, Cross. It is sorta like my whole thing with the "remove the redline" threads. Doing this to needles is really fixing the "wrong" problem. I use needles quite successfully in FW at least, and I plan to keep at least one fit that still has wiyrkomi's for that purpose alone (otherwise I'm swtiching to scanners  ) . I'll tell you right now, the few people who do die quickly after I revive them, a minimum of 75% of the time it's due to technical issues that give time for the enemy to regroup. The room was clear when I hit O the first time, but by the fourth damn time I hit it, and the second time through the animation, it's not anymore. As for the shotgun kill-revive grieifing, changing the kill screen and speeding up the time it takes for the bleedout or "punish" button to show up would take care of that. Otherwise, I honestly do see this change in large part to be pandering to the KDR kittens. Which, as I noted before, could still be placated with a bleedout button, leaving the default option as being revivable. But, we will see. Maybe this will incentivize coordinated play, maybe it won't. Hopefully we won't need to wait for another full patch to change it back if it does really kill needles.
Call me obtuse but this all really seems less like "having a point here" and more like "a whole lot of fuss over a single extra button push".
Either your squad mates want to be revived, and they push the button, or they don't and thus they won't.
That's the mechanical change. In coordinated play the only impact this has is the time it takes for the downed merc to press a button. Is that time even 3 full seconds, is it even 2?
Objecting to this change on the grounds that other things with revives are broken (such as the terrible animation sequence, which takes way too long, or the ghost icons, or the awful kdr stat, or the multiple failed injections) isn't logical or constructive. It isn't the 3 seconds or less impact that the 1.9 changes cause which hurts revive game play, it is the other persistent issues which need a resolution. Attention focused on the minutia here is attention that isn't getting focused on fixes for the more burdensome problems.
This is very much a "the rumors of my death have been greatly exaggerated" style situation.
Honestly, if given the choice would you rather keep things in a pre-1.9 state or have "request revive" in and those listed bugs resolved? Which would create the better net state for injectors?
Food for thought
~Cross
See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3723
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Posted - 2014.11.05 01:01:00 -
[7] - Quote
Doshneil Antaro wrote:R.I.P. needles, I have had 0 chances to revive anyone yet. Welcome to Scans 514.
Its your fault CCP, we offered better fixes that would add to this game, but instead your funneling logis away from medic roles and forcing us into slayer roles.
I've been playing all day today, I've seen scans deployed in 4 matches total (2 of which were by my squad upon request for same). My squad has been using revives with the same efficacy as ever during these matches as well and beyond that I have somewhere in the mid teens when it comes to "blue dots revived".
The Logi need some real love, they needed ti before this change, and they need it after.
Same story with the injector, the major elements of the situation haven't been impacted by this single alteration.
Finn Colman wrote:I think that requesting revives being required to get picked up is not really the best option
For those keeping score at home I actually agree with this statement.
There are likely better options and more elegant ways to address the situation, there are also far more significant aspects of support, logistics, injectors, revives etc to address than the "request" sub issue.
Any chance we can focus on the big stuff first and revisit this later if it seems necessary once the long standing persistent issues are resolved? I am all for discussion but this honestly seems like more of a distraction than a discussion.
If we revert these changes, and yet still have the many bugs linked to revives they won't be in a solid state.
Maybe I'm alone in this but that seems like a rather high price to pay for the trivial time involved in a single extra push of a button.
See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
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