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Rattati nerfs Skill by nerfing asset.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 6 post(s)
Vegetation Monster G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 287	Posted - 2014.09.18 02:40:00 - [1] - Quote Rattati nerfs ADS because apparently the Skilled ADS pilots were too hard for lock on swarm users to kill. What is happening? Is COD getting to CCP's head? It is sad to see dust reward skill-less players more than the ones with the skill. Probably going to get banned because on these forums you are not allowed to express opinion or say even a minor bad thing about CCP. See y'all in Destiny!! WOO!! At least Destiny isn't made by blind brainless apes. (Not specifically pointing at CCP). B Double O T Y
Joel II X Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3460	Posted - 2014.09.18 02:46:00 - [2] - Quote ADS are faster than swarms.
Michael Arck 5595	Posted - 2014.09.18 03:04:00 - [3] - Quote Joel II X wrote: ADS are faster than swarms. This. What we have now is basically what happened ages ago when Swarms were destroying anything it locked onto fairly quickly. The changes came to compensate so ADS could have a chance in the sky. Now swarms can't even swat the fly it seems. So changes are being made to even the playing field a bit. Archistrategos / The 7th Prime / Selah *Where the fear has gone there will be nothing....only I will remain
Atiim 12239	Posted - 2014.09.18 03:18:00 - [4] - Quote And on this day... this very day... not a single thing of value was lost. The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
Riruodo Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 179	Posted - 2014.09.18 03:22:00 - [5] - Quote I have yet to see someone with a swarm launcher take out a ship by themselves. It's always been 3 or so AVers, or the dropship gets hit by a CA Rail Cannon. Utena Tenjou is my prince in shining armor.
Xocoyol Zaraoul Superior Genetics 2374	Posted - 2014.09.18 06:06:00 - [6] - Quote Riruodo wrote: I have yet to see someone with a swarm launcher take out a ship by themselves. It's always been 3 or so AVers, or the dropship gets hit by a CA Rail Cannon. Two well-placed shots by a double D-modded proto Breach Forge does the trick for me Afterburners be damned, and pilots tend to lose their cool after the initial shot wipes most of their HP. EDIT: But yeah, swarms are garbage against derpships, good deterrents and not much else. "You see those red dots over there? Go and shoot them until you see a +50 on the screen" - Arkena Wyrnspire
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 16455	Posted - 2014.09.18 07:00:00 - [7] - Quote Vegetation Monster wrote: Rattati nerfs ADS because apparently the Skilled ADS pilots were too hard for lock on swarm users to kill. What is happening? Is COD getting to CCP's head? It is sad to see dust reward skill-less players more than the ones with the skill. Probably going to get banned because on these forums you are not allowed to express opinion or say even a minor bad thing about CCP. See y'all in Destiny!! WOO!! At least Destiny isn't made by blind brainless apes. (Not specifically pointing at CCP). He's never posted in a Pharana Games Interactive forums has he? CPM 1 Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior \\= Advanced Large Railgun =// Unlocked
Meee One Hello Kitty Logistics 1154	Posted - 2014.09.18 09:58:00 - [8] - Quote Vegetation Monster wrote: Rattati nerfs ADS because apparently the Skilled ADS pilots were too hard for lock on swarm users to kill. What is happening? Is COD getting to CCP's head? It is sad to see dust reward skill-less players more than the ones with the skill. Probably going to get banned because on these forums you are not allowed to express opinion or say even a minor bad thing about CCP. See y'all in Destiny!! WOO!! At least Destiny isn't made by blind brainless apes. (Not specifically pointing at CCP). Lol,skill to spam missles in an ADS? Try running support logistics for a match or two. Then,after swallowing that humble pie,return to you ADS and appreciate those thousands of extra eHP . Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
TH1EFOFSOuLS Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 7	Posted - 2014.09.18 10:16:00 - [9] - Quote Vegetation Monster wrote: Rattati nerfs ADS because apparently the Skilled ADS pilots were too hard for lock on swarm users to kill. What is happening? Is COD getting to CCP's head? It is sad to see dust reward skill-less players more than the ones with the skill. Probably going to get banned because on these forums you are not allowed to express opinion or say even a minor bad thing about CCP. See y'all in Destiny!! WOO!! At least Destiny isn't made by blind brainless apes. (Not specifically pointing at CCP). I know its pathetic man ive been feeling your pain for a while man, and how could this all be fixed? Making these COD tryhards understand nothing kills tanks or dropships better than a tank or a dropship. But I almost always forget they don't want to spec into their own tank or dropship they want easy mode AV and run off to a supply depot one the threat is taken care of an imedetly go back to proto stomping the majority of players that consist of lower than 5mil SP. (my guess is about 60%) from all my time playing
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2816	Posted - 2014.09.18 10:20:00 - [10] - Quote TH1EFOFSOuLS wrote: Vegetation Monster wrote: Rattati nerfs ADS because apparently the Skilled ADS pilots were too hard for lock on swarm users to kill. What is happening? Is COD getting to CCP's head? It is sad to see dust reward skill-less players more than the ones with the skill. Probably going to get banned because on these forums you are not allowed to express opinion or say even a minor bad thing about CCP. See y'all in Destiny!! WOO!! At least Destiny isn't made by blind brainless apes. (Not specifically pointing at CCP). I know its pathetic man ive been feeling your pain for a while man, and how could this all be fixed? Making these COD tryhards understand nothing kills tanks or dropships better than a tank or a dropship. But I almost always forget they don't want to spec into their own tank or dropship they want easy mode AV and run off to a supply depot one the threat is taken care of an imedetly go back to proto stomping the majority of players that consist of lower than 5mil SP. (my guess is about 60%) from all my time playing Nice echo chamber post. 2/10.

Derpty Derp Dead Man's Game 474	Posted - 2014.09.18 10:59:00 - [11] - Quote Joel II X wrote: ADS are faster than swarms. Not agreeing with this topic... But swarms and ads have the same top speed. Swarms also have better acceleration than the ads, only the afterburner allows the ads to reach it's top speed quicker. fact is you can never pull away from swarms, only outlast them if going quicker... They also follow your exact flight path so they don't hit walls unless fired at one by a moron (like me.) The only way I can outrun a swarm with my ads (no afterburner) is on a map with a big ass cliff that gives me room to pretty much fall for a good few seconds without hitting the floor, gives enough speed to stay ahead of the swarm if it was fired from a good distance. So yeah, the afterburner is the main reason for this argument, but everyone shat on ads because they don't like getting popped by missiles when there's no av about. However if the turn speed nerf on swarms is enough to actually allow me to fly behind cover without getting blown into it after the swarm does a nice instant 90 degree turn at the corner of a building, then I'm happy either way. Meee One wrote: Try running support logistics for a match or two. Then,after swallowing that humble pie,return to you ADS and appreciate those thousands of extra eHP . I had to lol... holding a rep tool and spamming uplinks/hives is difficult how?
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4860	Posted - 2014.09.18 11:11:00 - [12] - Quote Michael Arck wrote: Joel II X wrote: ADS are faster than swarms. This. What we have now is basically what happened ages ago when Swarms were destroying anything it locked onto fairly quickly. The changes came to compensate so ADS could have a chance in the sky. Now swarms can't even swat the fly it seems. So changes are being made to even the playing field a bit. The playing field was never supposed to be even.
CharacterNameWasTaken G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 33	Posted - 2014.09.18 11:18:00 - [13] - Quote Meee One wrote: Vegetation Monster wrote: Rattati nerfs ADS because apparently the Skilled ADS pilots were too hard for lock on swarm users to kill. What is happening? Is COD getting to CCP's head? It is sad to see dust reward skill-less players more than the ones with the skill. Probably going to get banned because on these forums you are not allowed to express opinion or say even a minor bad thing about CCP. See y'all in Destiny!! WOO!! At least Destiny isn't made by blind brainless apes. (Not specifically pointing at CCP). Lol,skill to spam missles in an ADS? Try running support logistics for a match or two. Then,after swallowing that humble pie,return to you ADS and appreciate those thousands of extra eHP . being a logi is easy when you have a ****** to follow. being an assault.... now thats hard.
CharacterNameWasTaken G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 33	Posted - 2014.09.18 11:21:00 - [14] - Quote Vegetation Monster wrote: Rattati nerfs ADS because apparently the Skilled ADS pilots were too hard for lock on swarm users to kill. What is happening? Is COD getting to CCP's head? It is sad to see dust reward skill-less players more than the ones with the skill. Probably going to get banned because on these forums you are not allowed to express opinion or say even a minor bad thing about CCP. See y'all in Destiny!! WOO!! At least Destiny isn't made by blind brainless apes. (Not specifically pointing at CCP). you cant drive vehicles in cod like you do in dust your point is invalid.
hold that Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 249	Posted - 2014.09.18 11:43:00 - [15] - Quote Riruodo wrote: I have yet to see someone with a swarm launcher take out a ship by themselves. It's always been 3 or so AVers, or the dropship gets hit by a CA Rail Cannon. these people believe that's 'fair' play
Extraneus Tenebrarum CaUsE-4-CoNcErN 72	Posted - 2014.09.18 11:55:00 - [16] - Quote CharacterNameWasTaken wrote: Vegetation Monster wrote: Rattati nerfs ADS because apparently the Skilled ADS pilots were too hard for lock on swarm users to kill. What is happening? Is COD getting to CCP's head? It is sad to see dust reward skill-less players more than the ones with the skill. Probably going to get banned because on these forums you are not allowed to express opinion or say even a minor bad thing about CCP. See y'all in Destiny!! WOO!! At least Destiny isn't made by blind brainless apes. (Not specifically pointing at CCP). you cant drive vehicles in cod like you do in dust your point is invalid. In CoD WaW you drive tanks
Bahirae Serugiusu Vendetta Reactionary Force 93	Posted - 2014.09.18 11:56:00 - [17] - Quote Vegetation Monster wrote: Rattati nerfs ADS because apparently the Skilled ADS pilots were too hard for lock on swarm users to kill. What is happening? Is COD getting to CCP's head? It is sad to see dust reward skill-less players more than the ones with the skill. Using that logic the Plasma Cannon should be one hit kill for all you ADS pilots. If an ADS gets hit by one the pilots just plain stupid even heavies are side stepping the incredibly slow projectiles. And also you are not meant to be invincible. AV IS MEANT TO KILL YOU!
Zindorak 1.U.P 913	Posted - 2014.09.18 11:59:00 - [18] - Quote There's a thing called a Forge Gun learn to use it Pokemon master! I suck at Tekken lol
Bahirae Serugiusu Vendetta Reactionary Force 93	Posted - 2014.09.18 12:08:00 - [19] - Quote Zindorak wrote: There's a thing called a Forge Gun learn how to use it Forge guns don't take enough skills. He wants the weapons that take the most skill to do the most damage then Plasma Cannon should be 1 hit kill on ADS buy a militia plasma cannon and try it out in a match and see how well you do compared to whatever you usually use. The projectile is slow, insanely visible, barely any splash damage, hit detection with it sucks, and it drops like crazy and you have to reload for a long time after each shot.
CharacterNameWasTaken G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 33	Posted - 2014.09.18 12:47:00 - [20] - Quote Bahirae Serugiusu wrote: Zindorak wrote: There's a thing called a Forge Gun learn how to use it Forge guns don't take enough skills. He wants the weapons that take the most skill to do the most damage then Plasma Cannon should be 1 hit kill on ADS buy a militia plasma cannon and try it out in a match and see how well you do compared to whatever you usually use. The projectile is slow, insanely visible, barely any splash damage, hit detection with it sucks, and it drops like crazy and you have to reload for a long time after each shot. and you have to basically directly hit anything with it for it to damage if its a centimeter too much to the side it just keeps going.

CharacterNameWasTaken G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 33	Posted - 2014.09.18 12:48:00 - [21] - Quote Extraneus Tenebrarum wrote: CharacterNameWasTaken wrote: Vegetation Monster wrote: Rattati nerfs ADS because apparently the Skilled ADS pilots were too hard for lock on swarm users to kill. What is happening? Is COD getting to CCP's head? It is sad to see dust reward skill-less players more than the ones with the skill. Probably going to get banned because on these forums you are not allowed to express opinion or say even a minor bad thing about CCP. See y'all in Destiny!! WOO!! At least Destiny isn't made by blind brainless apes. (Not specifically pointing at CCP). you cant drive vehicles in cod like you do in dust your point is invalid. In CoD WaW you drive tanks ok but not in multipalyer
Foundation Seldon Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 751	Posted - 2014.09.18 13:21:00 - [22] - Quote People in this thread are obviously underestimating the skill it takes to activate an afterburner, get out of dodge in 4-5 seconds, and come back to the same spot moments later fully healed and with your afterburner immediately out of cooldown. When will AV learn that I'm entitled to murder any and everyone from the sky because so many skill points such skill wow.
Antoin Vargaro Commando Perkone Caldari State 3	Posted - 2014.09.18 13:26:00 - [23] - Quote CharacterNameWasTaken wrote: Extraneus Tenebrarum wrote: CharacterNameWasTaken wrote: Vegetation Monster wrote: Rattati nerfs ADS because apparently the Skilled ADS pilots were too hard for lock on swarm users to kill. What is happening? Is COD getting to CCP's head? It is sad to see dust reward skill-less players more than the ones with the skill. Probably going to get banned because on these forums you are not allowed to express opinion or say even a minor bad thing about CCP. See y'all in Destiny!! WOO!! At least Destiny isn't made by blind brainless apes. (Not specifically pointing at CCP). you cant drive vehicles in cod like you do in dust your point is invalid. In CoD WaW you drive tanks ok but not in multipalyer I'll just leave this here, for your viewing pleasure: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARKP39GC2SE
CUSE TOWN333 KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 1446	Posted - 2014.09.18 13:32:00 - [24] - Quote Vegetation Monster wrote: Rattati nerfs ADS because apparently the Skilled ADS pilots were too hard for lock on swarm users to kill. What is happening? Is COD getting to CCP's head? It is sad to see dust reward skill-less players more than the ones with the skill. Probably going to get banned because on these forums you are not allowed to express opinion or say even a minor bad thing about CCP. See y'all in Destiny!! WOO!! At least Destiny isn't made by blind brainless apes. (Not specifically pointing at CCP). you lost everyone at the point were you said you have skill. KEQ diplomat/ intel /GC officer
Vapor Forseti General Tso's Alliance 1442	Posted - 2014.09.18 13:44:00 - [25] - Quote Vegetation Monster wrote: Rattati nerfs ADS because apparently the Skilled ADS pilots were too hard for lock on swarm users to kill. What is happening? Is COD getting to CCP's head? It is sad to see dust reward skill-less players more than the ones with the skill. Probably going to get banned because on these forums you are not allowed to express opinion or say even a minor bad thing about CCP. See y'all in Destiny!! WOO!! At least Destiny isn't made by blind brainless apes. (Not specifically pointing at CCP). I thought you left? When you are in a pinch, just say "Help me, Dark Adonis" and I will come to you, literally.
Right-wing Extremist Nos Nothi 1184	Posted - 2014.09.18 14:10:00 - [26] - Quote Atiim wrote: And on this day... this very day... not a single thing of value was lost. Atiiim, I've only seen you in game a few times, and I hate you (ingame). But over this last few weeks, I've come to find you're a p. good poster. You're awesome. Keep that **** up! Jaceon Pale-eye. And you shall know me by the sound of Charge SR bullets whizzing by your head as I miss repeatedly.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 7357	Posted - 2014.09.18 15:47:00 - [27] - Quote Derpty Derp wrote: Joel II X wrote: ADS are faster than swarms. Not agreeing with this topic... But swarms and ads have the same top speed. Swarms also have better acceleration than the ads, only the afterburner allows the ads to reach it's top speed quicker. fact is you can never pull away from swarms, only outlast them if going quicker... They also follow your exact flight path so they don't hit walls unless fired at one by a moron (like me.) The only way I can outrun a swarm with my ads (no afterburner) is on a map with a big ass cliff that gives me room to pretty much fall for a good few seconds without hitting the floor, gives enough speed to stay ahead of the swarm if it was fired from a good distance. So yeah, the afterburner is the main reason for this argument, but everyone shat on ads because they don't like getting popped by missiles when there's no av about. However if the turn speed nerf on swarms is enough to actually allow me to fly behind cover without getting blown into it after the swarm does a nice instant 90 degree turn at the corner of a building, then I'm happy either way. Meee One wrote: Try running support logistics for a match or two. Then,after swallowing that humble pie,return to you ADS and appreciate those thousands of extra eHP . I had to lol... holding a rep tool and spamming uplinks/hives is difficult how? ADS has faster top speed than swarms, fact "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 7357	Posted - 2014.09.18 15:53:00 - [28] - Quote Just to make one point, I tried all night to just play swarm AV. Proto swarms, not full skills, triple dmg mods. I lost more suits than I have ever lost in a night, and I didn't kill a single dropship, nor a tank. One time I swear the ADS wagged at me as I launched the 3 death swarm, turned around and blasted away and came back to kill me. Admittedly, not the best AVer out there, but, it's not only about not being able to kill vehicles, it's all the times I am trying to chase a double hit dropship or HAV, and get shot by any other infantry. I died 50% from not being able to defend my self against infantry, and the rest by blaster tanks or missile turret ads's. Militia swarms being a threat is class A bs. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 4973	Posted - 2014.09.18 15:59:00 - [29] - Quote Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Bahirae Serugiusu Vendetta Reactionary Force 95	Posted - 2014.09.18 16:01:00 - [30] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Militia swarms being a threat is class A bs. It takes every shot from a Militia swarm to kill a LAV. And AV is only a threat when the pilots are acting like idiots.

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2820	Posted - 2014.09.18 16:18:00 - [31] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Just to make one point, I tried all night to just play swarm AV. Proto swarms, not full skills, triple dmg mods. I lost more suits than I have ever lost in a night, and I didn't kill a single dropship, nor a tank. One time I swear the ADS wagged at me as I launched the 3 death swarm, turned around and blasted away and came back to kill me. Admittedly, not the best AVer out there, but, it's not only about not being able to kill vehicles, it's all the times I am trying to chase a double hit dropship or HAV, and get shot by any other infantry. I died 50% from not being able to defend my self against infantry, and the rest by blaster tanks or missile turret ads's. Militia swarms being a threat is class A bs. Now run a cal sentinel with 2 damage mods in the highs, a proto extender, any grade recharger or energizer, a regulator. Use the AFG. You should find it doable but difficult. Sidearm and grenades are optional. If you fit a decent tank you wont even be able to fit STD sidearm and nades. I think a similar level of difficulty should be had with all AV. No I do not think the forge needs a buff. I think it makes a good difficulty comparison. Might give you an idea where the sweet spot needs to be for the other AV.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4861	Posted - 2014.09.18 16:22:00 - [32] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Just to make one point, I tried all night to just play swarm AV. Proto swarms, not full skills, triple dmg mods. I lost more suits than I have ever lost in a night, and I didn't kill a single dropship, nor a tank. One time I swear the ADS wagged at me as I launched the 3 death swarm, turned around and blasted away and came back to kill me. Admittedly, not the best AVer out there, but, it's not only about not being able to kill vehicles, it's all the times I am trying to chase a double hit dropship or HAV, and get shot by any other infantry. I died 50% from not being able to defend my self against infantry, and the rest by blaster tanks or missile turret ads's. Militia swarms being a threat is class A bs. Good. A ridiculous free suit shouldn't be able to do anything to a million isk vehicle. There is a thing called value to consider. Now, had you friends helping out or god forbid a forge gun you would have killed all of your targets. And had you played commando you would've been able to fight off infantry threats and drive away vehicle threats. So don't use a free suit and expect value.
Thumb Green Raymond James Corp 1486	Posted - 2014.09.18 16:27:00 - [33] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Just to make one point, I tried all night to just play swarm AV. Proto swarms, not full skills, triple dmg mods. I lost more suits than I have ever lost in a night, and I didn't kill a single dropship, nor a tank. One time I swear the ADS wagged at me as I launched the 3 death swarm, turned around and blasted away and came back to kill me. Admittedly, not the best AVer out there, but, it's not only about not being able to kill vehicles, it's all the times I am trying to chase a double hit dropship or HAV, and get shot by any other infantry. I died 50% from not being able to defend my self against infantry, and the rest by blaster tanks or missile turret ads's. Militia swarms being a threat is class A bs. Good. A ridiculous free suit shouldn't be able to do anything to a million isk vehicle. There is a thing called value to consider. Now, had you friends helping out or god forbid a forge gun you would have killed all of your targets. And had you played commando you would've been able to fight off infantry threats and drive away vehicle threats. So don't use a free suit and expect value. I suppose you didn't see the part where he said he was using proto, doesn't sound like a free suit to me. We don't kick ass, we kick dick and we kick it hard. Join us in our Pumpkin Crushing
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2820	Posted - 2014.09.18 16:29:00 - [34] - Quote Value based balancing is utter crap. By that logic anyone who is facing my proto sents has no business being anything more than a slight distraction and free warpoints. ISK elitism isn't a balance factor because it utterly removes the value of skill, tactics and teamwork. Take that balance by cost crap and stow it.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4861	Posted - 2014.09.18 16:29:00 - [35] - Quote Thumb Green wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Just to make one point, I tried all night to just play swarm AV. Proto swarms, not full skills, triple dmg mods. I lost more suits than I have ever lost in a night, and I didn't kill a single dropship, nor a tank. One time I swear the ADS wagged at me as I launched the 3 death swarm, turned around and blasted away and came back to kill me. Admittedly, not the best AVer out there, but, it's not only about not being able to kill vehicles, it's all the times I am trying to chase a double hit dropship or HAV, and get shot by any other infantry. I died 50% from not being able to defend my self against infantry, and the rest by blaster tanks or missile turret ads's. Militia swarms being a threat is class A bs. Good. A ridiculous free suit shouldn't be able to do anything to a million isk vehicle. There is a thing called value to consider. Now, had you friends helping out or god forbid a forge gun you would have killed all of your targets. And had you played commando you would've been able to fight off infantry threats and drive away vehicle threats. So don't use a free suit and expect value. I suppose you didn't see the part where he said he was using proto, doesn't sound like a free suit to me. It's true, I didn't. I'm so used to reading blather that I read the top line, then read the bottom line, and assume everything in the middle is stupidity. I like to give Rattati the benefit of the doubt where possible, but he did mention militia's so I assumed he was attempting to justify a buff across the board. That would be a mistake.
ResistanceGTA D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1533	Posted - 2014.09.18 16:30:00 - [36] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Just to make one point, I tried all night to just play swarm AV. Proto swarms, not full skills, triple dmg mods. I lost more suits than I have ever lost in a night, and I didn't kill a single dropship, nor a tank. One time I swear the ADS wagged at me as I launched the 3 death swarm, turned around and blasted away and came back to kill me. Admittedly, not the best AVer out there, but, it's not only about not being able to kill vehicles, it's all the times I am trying to chase a double hit dropship or HAV, and get shot by any other infantry. I died 50% from not being able to defend my self against infantry, and the rest by blaster tanks or missile turret ads's. Militia swarms being a threat is class A bs. I'm no expert here, but, those sound like fighting words.. And too many damage mods, come on. If you find an issue and I stumble upon your thread, I will do my darnedest to get the issue known. Also, Raptors...

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 7373	Posted - 2014.09.18 16:32:00 - [37] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Just to make one point, I tried all night to just play swarm AV. Proto swarms, not full skills, triple dmg mods. I lost more suits than I have ever lost in a night, and I didn't kill a single dropship, nor a tank. One time I swear the ADS wagged at me as I launched the 3 death swarm, turned around and blasted away and came back to kill me. Admittedly, not the best AVer out there, but, it's not only about not being able to kill vehicles, it's all the times I am trying to chase a double hit dropship or HAV, and get shot by any other infantry. I died 50% from not being able to defend my self against infantry, and the rest by blaster tanks or missile turret ads's. Militia swarms being a threat is class A bs. Good. A ridiculous free suit shouldn't be able to do anything to a million isk vehicle. There is a thing called value to consider. Now, had you friends helping out or god forbid a forge gun you would have killed all of your targets. And had you played commando you would've been able to fight off infantry threats and drive away vehicle threats. Now if an ADS is flying so fast he can't be hit by swarms, he can't hit his targets on the ground either. That means without killing him, you nullified him as a threat. If you want that to feel more rewarding I recommend you change the acceleration, but not the top speed, of an ADS. That allows quick blow-throughs to outrun all swarms, as they should be able to, but doesn't allow them to escape when they've been hovering around like jackasses because they won't be able to accelerate to that top speed fast enough. Just don't use a free suit and expect value, because you deserve none. ...lol "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Thumb Green Raymond James Corp 1489	Posted - 2014.09.18 16:32:00 - [38] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Thumb Green wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Just to make one point, I tried all night to just play swarm AV. Proto swarms, not full skills, triple dmg mods. I lost more suits than I have ever lost in a night, and I didn't kill a single dropship, nor a tank. One time I swear the ADS wagged at me as I launched the 3 death swarm, turned around and blasted away and came back to kill me. Admittedly, not the best AVer out there, but, it's not only about not being able to kill vehicles, it's all the times I am trying to chase a double hit dropship or HAV, and get shot by any other infantry. I died 50% from not being able to defend my self against infantry, and the rest by blaster tanks or missile turret ads's. Militia swarms being a threat is class A bs. Good. A ridiculous free suit shouldn't be able to do anything to a million isk vehicle. There is a thing called value to consider. Now, had you friends helping out or god forbid a forge gun you would have killed all of your targets. And had you played commando you would've been able to fight off infantry threats and drive away vehicle threats. So don't use a free suit and expect value. I suppose you didn't see the part where he said he was using proto, doesn't sound like a free suit to me. It's true, I didn't. I'm so used to reading blather that I read the top line, then read the bottom line, and assume everything in the middle is stupidity. I like to give Rattati the benefit of the doubt where possible, but he did mention militia's so I assumed he was attempting to justify a buff across the board. That would be a mistake. But the proto part is the top line. We don't kick ass, we kick dick and we kick it hard. Join us in our Pumpkin Crushing

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 7373	Posted - 2014.09.18 16:33:00 - [39] - Quote ResistanceGTA wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Just to make one point, I tried all night to just play swarm AV. Proto swarms, not full skills, triple dmg mods. I lost more suits than I have ever lost in a night, and I didn't kill a single dropship, nor a tank. One time I swear the ADS wagged at me as I launched the 3 death swarm, turned around and blasted away and came back to kill me. Admittedly, not the best AVer out there, but, it's not only about not being able to kill vehicles, it's all the times I am trying to chase a double hit dropship or HAV, and get shot by any other infantry. I died 50% from not being able to defend my self against infantry, and the rest by blaster tanks or missile turret ads's. Militia swarms being a threat is class A bs. I'm no expert here, but, those sound like fighting words.. And too many damage mods, come on. i was going for ultimate max dmg to "prove a point" "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4861	Posted - 2014.09.18 16:34:00 - [40] - Quote I feel like I need to do a stream and show you how its done properly.

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 4975	Posted - 2014.09.18 16:42:00 - [41] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: I feel like I need to do a stream and show you how its done properly. Please do! But please don't use a Forge Gun in your "How to Swarm" video. Doing so would detract from the whole "Swarm" part, yes? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4861	Posted - 2014.09.18 16:44:00 - [42] - Quote It most certainly would. This would be mostly commando work. Getting my old capture stuff ready and finding a decent twitch server. Been a while, but I'm making sure everything still works properly.
Tebu Gan Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1208	Posted - 2014.09.18 18:45:00 - [43] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Just to make one point, I tried all night to just play swarm AV. Proto swarms, not full skills, triple dmg mods. I lost more suits than I have ever lost in a night, and I didn't kill a single dropship, nor a tank. One time I swear the ADS wagged at me as I launched the 3 death swarm, turned around and blasted away and came back to kill me. Admittedly, not the best AVer out there, but, it's not only about not being able to kill vehicles, it's all the times I am trying to chase a double hit dropship or HAV, and get shot by any other infantry. I died 50% from not being able to defend my self against infantry, and the rest by blaster tanks or missile turret ads's. Militia swarms being a threat is class A bs. Truth, but there are swarmers out there that can effectively deny ADS. Generally, if your team does well, you do well. It's true that as a swarmer you generally die to infantry A LOT. The main issue is mobility, grab an LAV and pick at your target. Though I will say a missile ADS isn't quite so easy, as I know I can personally shot the driver out, and if he does jump out to swarm me, I have enough time to drop him. Though as far as tanks go, remotes or proxies, and luring them back to your trap is an effective strategy with an LAV. I prefer remotes as they don't beep. Tanks - Balancing Turrets
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4865	Posted - 2014.09.18 19:00:00 - [44] - Quote Tanks require trickery to kill or two swarmers. ADS requires poor piloting or synchronized shots between two swarmers. Both can be effectively denied by a single incompetent swarmer, however. Give a forger the right altitude, he will kill anybody. Which is fair because its difficult to set him up. Everything is right in the world.
Not Jadek Menaheim Xer Cloud Consortium 59	Posted - 2014.09.18 19:06:00 - [45] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Just to make one point, I tried all night to just play swarm AV. Proto swarms, not full skills, triple dmg mods. I lost more suits than I have ever lost in a night, and I didn't kill a single dropship, nor a tank. One time I swear the ADS wagged at me as I launched the 3 death swarm, turned around and blasted away and came back to kill me. Admittedly, not the best AVer out there, but, it's not only about not being able to kill vehicles, it's all the times I am trying to chase a double hit dropship or HAV, and get shot by any other infantry. I died 50% from not being able to defend my self against infantry, and the rest by blaster tanks or missile turret ads's. Militia swarms being a threat is class A bs. Rattati, you should enlist the help of a dev buddy to try AV while surfing on a friendly dropship. The lock-on mechanic works nicely here while in the air. Try the new Planetary Conquest Mode!
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4865	Posted - 2014.09.18 19:42:00 - [46] - Quote More fun to do that with a forge. Especially when you shoot your own dropship by accident.
CharacterNameWasTaken G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 34	Posted - 2014.09.18 19:55:00 - [47] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: ResistanceGTA wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Just to make one point, I tried all night to just play swarm AV. Proto swarms, not full skills, triple dmg mods. I lost more suits than I have ever lost in a night, and I didn't kill a single dropship, nor a tank. One time I swear the ADS wagged at me as I launched the 3 death swarm, turned around and blasted away and came back to kill me. Admittedly, not the best AVer out there, but, it's not only about not being able to kill vehicles, it's all the times I am trying to chase a double hit dropship or HAV, and get shot by any other infantry. I died 50% from not being able to defend my self against infantry, and the rest by blaster tanks or missile turret ads's. Militia swarms being a threat is class A bs. I'm no expert here, but, those sound like fighting words.. And too many damage mods, come on. i was going for ultimate max dmg to "prove a point" ive been running cbr swarms on my minnie starter aa suit with three damage mods just to make vehiclea run away and it always works.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 540	Posted - 2014.09.18 20:26:00 - [48] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: ResistanceGTA wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Just to make one point, I tried all night to just play swarm AV. Proto swarms, not full skills, triple dmg mods. I lost more suits than I have ever lost in a night, and I didn't kill a single dropship, nor a tank. One time I swear the ADS wagged at me as I launched the 3 death swarm, turned around and blasted away and came back to kill me. Admittedly, not the best AVer out there, but, it's not only about not being able to kill vehicles, it's all the times I am trying to chase a double hit dropship or HAV, and get shot by any other infantry. I died 50% from not being able to defend my self against infantry, and the rest by blaster tanks or missile turret ads's. Militia swarms being a threat is class A bs. I'm no expert here, but, those sound like fighting words.. And too many damage mods, come on. i was going for ultimate max dmg to "prove a point" i dont recommend light av weapons on anything other than commandos. which btw would be great if you found a way to give caldari commandos a bonus to swarms. the ability to defend against infantry as well as vehicles is the strength of the commando class IMO.
CharacterNameWasTaken G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 34	Posted - 2014.09.18 20:36:00 - [49] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: ResistanceGTA wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Just to make one point, I tried all night to just play swarm AV. Proto swarms, not full skills, triple dmg mods. I lost more suits than I have ever lost in a night, and I didn't kill a single dropship, nor a tank. One time I swear the ADS wagged at me as I launched the 3 death swarm, turned around and blasted away and came back to kill me. Admittedly, not the best AVer out there, but, it's not only about not being able to kill vehicles, it's all the times I am trying to chase a double hit dropship or HAV, and get shot by any other infantry. I died 50% from not being able to defend my self against infantry, and the rest by blaster tanks or missile turret ads's. Militia swarms being a threat is class A bs. I'm no expert here, but, those sound like fighting words.. And too many damage mods, come on. i was going for ultimate max dmg to "prove a point" i dont recommend light av weapons on anything other than commandos. which btw would be great if you found a way to give caldari commandos a bonus to swarms. the ability to defend against infantry as well as vehicles is the strength of the commando class IMO. yeah beacuse swarms look like a rail weapon to me too. Use a min commando if you want a swarm bonus.
Snake Sellors Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 477	Posted - 2014.09.18 20:52:00 - [50] - Quote Foundation Seldon wrote: People in this thread are obviously underestimating the skill it takes to activate an afterburner, get out of dodge in 4-5 seconds, and come back to the same spot moments later fully healed and with your afterburner immediately out of cooldown. When will AV learn that I'm entitled to murder any and everyone from the sky because so many skill points such skill wow. The problem is this.^ an ads pilot will post and complain about how powerful they are, how they should be "area denial weapons" and they should not be able to destroy an ads single handed... but yet for all that noise they will circle back to the same person, over and over and over: they know that if the first volley didn't kill them none of the others will either. they are not even doing area denial if the ads pilot does not feel the need to avoid a player that they know has swarms. there is literally no sense in approaching a genuine threat over and over again, therefore they are not a threat. as for people wanting av to destroy ads as an easy option.. a.v as in anti vehicle.. the ability for a single person to destroy vehicles has been around almost as long as vehicles in war have.. ww2. carrying swarms is not such an easy option, it leaves most players with only the option of using the sidearm against infantry. glad to see that rattati has tried to swarm for a whole night to get an unbiased view.

Right-wing Extremist Nos Nothi 1187	Posted - 2014.09.18 21:03:00 - [51] - Quote CharacterNameWasTaken wrote: yeah beacuse swarms look like a rail weapon to me too. Use a min commando if you want a swarm bonus. Actually, missiles in general are Caldari tech. Rockets, light missiles, heavy assault missiles, heavy missiles, torpedos, cruise missiles - all Caldari tech. Missile turrets and swarm launchers in Dust 514 are available from which LP store again? Ah, right: Caldari. That said, yes, please give my Calmando a bonus to swarms so I can be even more effective at driving away dropships that come to harass me on my sniper perch. Nah... might be overpowered, then. Jaceon Pale-eye. And you shall know me by the sound of Charge SR bullets whizzing by your head as I miss repeatedly.
Vegetation Monster G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 292	Posted - 2014.09.18 21:17:00 - [52] - Quote Joel II X wrote: ADS are faster than swarms. Rockets are are faster than missiles. Just ask NASA. Surely thousands of years into the future vehicles would be faster than light. B Double O T Y
Vapor Forseti DIOS EX. General Tso's Alliance 1448	Posted - 2014.09.18 21:23:00 - [53] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Just to make one point, I tried all night to just play swarm AV. Proto swarms, not full skills, triple dmg mods. I lost more suits than I have ever lost in a night, and I didn't kill a single dropship, nor a tank. One time I swear the ADS wagged at me as I launched the 3 death swarm, turned around and blasted away and came back to kill me. Admittedly, not the best AVer out there, but, it's not only about not being able to kill vehicles, it's all the times I am trying to chase a double hit dropship or HAV, and get shot by any other infantry. I died 50% from not being able to defend my self against infantry, and the rest by blaster tanks or missile turret ads's. Militia swarms being a threat is class A bs. Rattati, where were you in our lives earlier, lol. When you are in a pinch, just say "Help me, Dark Adonis" and I will come to you, literally.
Vegetation Monster G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 292	Posted - 2014.09.18 21:27:00 - [54] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Just to make one point, I tried all night to just play swarm AV. Proto swarms, not full skills, triple dmg mods. I lost more suits than I have ever lost in a night, and I didn't kill a single dropship, nor a tank. One time I swear the ADS wagged at me as I launched the 3 death swarm, turned around and blasted away and came back to kill me. Admittedly, not the best AVer out there, but, it's not only about not being able to kill vehicles, it's all the times I am trying to chase a double hit dropship or HAV, and get shot by any other infantry. I died 50% from not being able to defend my self against infantry, and the rest by blaster tanks or missile turret ads's. Militia swarms being a threat is class A bs. Maybe your million sp, two mil sp max, into swarms and dmg mods isn't suppose to be supper effective toward a 5 million+ sp vehicle. Maybe your 150k isk dropsuit isn't suppose to be super good at killing 500k isk skill requiring asset. Admittedly, not the best ADSer out there, but, other than AV infantry, I also have to worry about super powerful 2HKO Particle cannon tanks and indestructible redline railgun installations just like you have to worry about other infantry. B Double O T Y
Vegetation Monster G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 292	Posted - 2014.09.18 21:30:00 - [55] - Quote Snake Sellors wrote: Foundation Seldon wrote: People in this thread are obviously underestimating the skill it takes to activate an afterburner, get out of dodge in 4-5 seconds, and come back to the same spot moments later fully healed and with your afterburner immediately out of cooldown. When will AV learn that I'm entitled to murder any and everyone from the sky because so many skill points such skill wow. The problem is this.^ an ads pilot will post and complain about how powerful they are, how they should be "area denial weapons" and they should not be able to destroy an ads single handed... but yet for all that noise they will circle back to the same person, over and over and over: they know that if the first volley didn't kill them none of the others will either. they are not even doing area denial if the ads pilot does not feel the need to avoid a player that they know has swarms. there is literally no sense in approaching a genuine threat over and over again, therefore they are not a threat. as for people wanting av to destroy ads as an easy option.. a.v as in anti vehicle.. the ability for a single person to destroy vehicles has been around almost as long as vehicles in war have.. ww2. carrying swarms is not such an easy option, it leaves most players with only the option of using the sidearm against infantry. glad to see that rattati has tried to swarm for a whole night to get an unbiased view. You guys act like Sidearms don't do the job well. SMG is like one of the most powerful guns our there. Learn to use it. Also, if you are more skillful use ScP. It rewards you more. B Double O T Y
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2834	Posted - 2014.09.18 21:31:00 - [56] - Quote Yes your win butan is threatened. Do you want a hug? And 2m SP to run a proto AV fit my ass. This stupid theory had been disproven dozens of times.
THUNDERGROOVE Fatal Absolution 1109	Posted - 2014.09.18 21:42:00 - [57] - Quote Joel II X wrote: ADS are faster than swarms. Actually they aren't. What is happening is pilots who know what they are doing can fly in such a way to force the swarms to have to turn which slows them down. Generally this involves flipping backwards or turning on your side at very sharp angles often times I have to do this twice just to completely escape them. If an ADS flies straight up, the swarms will hit every single time unless they are so far away that they escape the flight range of the swarms in which case that's the swarmers bad call. Plus I'd argue that doing an evasive maneuver is a hell of a lot more difficult than: Fire and forget If anything just tone down the ridiculous RoF bonus and possibly skill stacking, ideally giving the gunner the best bonus. If the pilot has 4 and the gunner has 5, give them level 5. The biggest problem is so few people have been in a dropship and swarmed them. Heck, half of every PC I play I'm FG duty. Swarms are as effective as they should be for the type of weapon it is. I mean, it really requires almost no skill apart from decent positioning, and considering I still can't see where I'm getting swarmed from because they still don't render from anywhere past 100 meters. Amarrica! It's Not Safe to Swim.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 4981	Posted - 2014.09.18 21:49:00 - [58] - Quote THUNDERGROOVE wrote: Swarms are as effective as they should be for the type of weapon it is. I mean, it really requires almost no skill ... Which is why we've decided to nerf the HMG. Looking back, we probably should've designed it differently; we didn't realize it'd be so easy to use and so powerful. Oh well! - CCP Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2835	Posted - 2014.09.18 22:10:00 - [59] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: THUNDERGROOVE wrote: Swarms are as effective as they should be for the type of weapon it is. I mean, it really requires almost no skill ... Which is why we've decided to nerf the HMG. Looking back, we probably should've designed it differently; we didn't realize it'd be so easy to use and so powerful. Oh well! - CCP Wow that was weaker than the ADS whining. 1/10
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 4981	Posted - 2014.09.18 22:24:00 - [60] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: THUNDERGROOVE wrote: Swarms are as effective as they should be for the type of weapon it is. I mean, it really requires almost no skill ... Which is why we've decided to nerf the HMG. Looking back, we probably should've designed it differently; we didn't realize it'd be so easy to use and so powerful. Oh well! - CCP Wow that was weaker than the ADS whining. 1/10 New HMG Design Goals: Teamwork! We'd like the easy-to-use HMG to be a teamwork-oriented weapon. Focused fire from two (possibly three) should suffice to kill most infantry. Individually it will be very good at laying down suppressing fire, not unlike a Heavy Machine Gun! We expect that Heavies will find satisfaction in knowing they're keeping the enemy away. Fairness! Many infantry have expressed concerns about HMG range, so we'll be reducing it by three quarters. Sorry! Easy! We understand that this is a big change and that Heavies don't have many anti-infantry options. But don't feel bad! Remember ... its easy use! - CCP Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley

Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3526	Posted - 2014.09.18 22:42:00 - [61] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Just to make one point, I tried all night to just play swarm AV. Proto swarms, not full skills, triple dmg mods. I lost more suits than I have ever lost in a night, and I didn't kill a single dropship, nor a tank. One time I swear the ADS wagged at me as I launched the 3 death swarm, turned around and blasted away and came back to kill me. Admittedly, not the best AVer out there, but, it's not only about not being able to kill vehicles, it's all the times I am trying to chase a double hit dropship or HAV, and get shot by any other infantry. I died 50% from not being able to defend my self against infantry, and the rest by blaster tanks or missile turret ads's. Militia swarms being a threat is class A bs. Good. A ridiculous free suit shouldn't be able to do anything to a million isk vehicle. There is a thing called value to consider. Now, had you friends helping out or god forbid a forge gun you would have killed all of your targets. And had you played commando you would've been able to fight off infantry threats and drive away vehicle threats. Now if an ADS is flying so fast he can't be hit by swarms, he can't hit his targets on the ground either. That means without killing him, you nullified him as a threat. If you want that to feel more rewarding I recommend you change the acceleration, but not the top speed, of an ADS. That allows quick blow-throughs to outrun all swarms, as they should be able to, but doesn't allow them to escape when they've been hovering around like jackasses because they won't be able to accelerate to that top speed fast enough. Just don't use a free suit and expect value, because you deserve none. 1) He was using PRO Swarms with 3x Damage Mods, he is toting the best AV weaponry available, not accounting for his skill (no offence - R), he should have at least made 1 kill against a vehicle over a nights worth of public matches. 2) So let me see if I understand this. A MLT Frontline Dropsuit kiling a PRO Dropsuit - Fine (0:120,000) A MLT Tank killing multiple PRO Dropsuits - Fine (70,000:5,000,000) A MLT Swarm being barely a threat - God Forbid 3) Yes when you starting bringing up value you have to remember the value of the AV suits used against you too. My current Assault AV fitting at 65,000 ISK (ADV) is onlt good for ONE vehicle, if I'm successful in destroying a vehicle I must then FIGHT my way back to a suply depot so that I have enoigh munitions to take on another. On average an AVer will die 3-4 for each vehicle he suppresses/kills, he can't engage the tank with a reckless regard for his own well being, he would be too ineffective. Chances are as you roll in in a tank , your tagged. But the AVer has to ensure he will do enough damage to kill. 4) Commandos make poor AV units, they lack many required traits that make other suits desirable for AV duties, he also receives no eHP bonuses over most medium suits and lacks the versatility required. Commandos are a Jack of all trades class much more so than the Assault. 5) Finally mlt tank, mlt AV, why is one allowed to be as equally powerful as it's skilled variation but the other not? They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
Atiim 12268	Posted - 2014.09.18 23:22:00 - [62] - Quote THUNDERGROOVE wrote: Actually they aren't. Yes, yes they are. CCP Rattati himself looked at the speed of the ADS and the Swarm Launcher, and noted that the ADS's top speed is faster. In fact, he himself said that the ADS is faster within this very thread. THUNDERGROOVE wrote: What is happening is pilots who know what they are doing can fly in such a way to force the swarms to have to turn which slows them down. Generally this involves flipping backwards or turning on your side at very sharp angles often times I have to do this twice just to completely escape them. That's not what's happening at all. I've tested with my very own Python, and I can confirm that Swarm Launchers can be evaded by simply flying in a straight line. In fact, Derrith Erador (highly experienced DS pilot, and a member of your corporation) himself confirmed that they can be out-run by flying in a straight line. Though if you're up for loosing some hard earned ISK, I'd be happy to make a wager. THUNDERGROOVE wrote: If an ADS flies straight up, the swarms will hit every single time unless they are so far away that they escape the flight range of the swarms in which case that's the swarmers bad call. This is only true if the volley is fired from 0m of the ADS, which is the equivalent of begin parked. THUNDERGROOVE wrote: Plus I'd argue that doing an evasive maneuver is a hell of a lot more difficult than: Fire and forget Fire and forget implies that you can fire your weapon, without having to worry about where the projectile travels. Given that the Swarm Launcher AI flies to where the target was as opposed to where it currently is, along with it's tendency to crash into obstacles, this is indeed false. Unless of course, the target is standing perfectly still/parked. In which case, any Anti-Vehicle weapon (barring PLCs) would take 0 skill to use, as you're simply holding R1. Though I find the notion that SLs shouldn't be viable simply because of their ease of use* laughable considering how most (actually all) weapons that are currently competitive have AA, which removes the need to aim. As for my asterisk, I would agree that fighting someone who's AFK or incompetent is indeed easy, but this is true for all weapons. Fighting someone with experience however, is not as you: Have to predict the Pilot's travel path Have to predict how long to delay the SL's travel, allowing for high Alpha Damage. Have to position yourself in a way that allows you to combat Pilots without being threatend by Infantry Have to time your shots, or risk them being repaired through. etc, etc, etc. What should be questioned however, is the difficulty of sitting on a tower a good 200m away with enough Nanohives to be seen from space, while dealing so much damage that none barring the best of ADS Pilots or a Warbarge Stirke can remove you. If that's not considered EZ-Mode, then I don't know what is. THUNDERGROOVE wrote: If anything just tone down the ridiculous RoF bonus and possibly skill stacking, ideally giving the gunner the best bonus. If the pilot has 4 and the gunner has 5, give them level 5. Deritth mentioned that Zatara and other CPM members are pushing for the RoF to be reduced. However, this would not solve the SL's inefficiency against ADSs. The biggest problem is so few people have been in a dropship and swarmed them. Heck, half of every PC I play I'm FG duty. I've been Swarmed at Dropships several times over. Surviving them is beyond easy, even when I can't see them. The only time when they're actually anything more than insignificant is when I'm hovering in the city near a tower Swarms are as effective as they should be for the type of weapon it is. Anti-Armor (Explosive); Anti-Vehicle For a type of weapon specifically designed to destroy vehicles, and be extremely effective against Armored Units, I'd say it's under-performing against Assault Dropships. I mean, it really requires almost no skill apart from decent positioning. +1 for creating a perfect synopsis on the Forge Gun and it's operation. and considering I still can't see where I'm getting swarmed from because they still don't render from anywhere past 100 meters. Rendering issues are not valid reasons to keep a weapon from underperforming against it's counter. The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
maluble Vherokior Combat Logistics Minmatar Republic 73	Posted - 2014.09.18 23:42:00 - [63] - Quote TH1EFOFSOuLS wrote: Vegetation Monster wrote: Rattati nerfs ADS because apparently the Skilled ADS pilots were too hard for lock on swarm users to kill. What is happening? Is COD getting to CCP's head? It is sad to see dust reward skill-less players more than the ones with the skill. Probably going to get banned because on these forums you are not allowed to express opinion or say even a minor bad thing about CCP. See y'all in Destiny!! WOO!! At least Destiny isn't made by blind brainless apes. (Not specifically pointing at CCP). I know its pathetic man ive been feeling your pain for a while man, and how could this all be fixed? Making these COD tryhards understand nothing kills tanks or dropships better than a tank or a dropship. But I almost always forget they don't want to spec into their own tank or dropship they want easy mode AV and run off to a supply depot one the threat is taken care of an imedetly go back to proto stomping the majority of players that consist of lower than 5mil SP. (my guess is about 60%) from all my time playing Or they just dont want to be the scrub who is to scared to weild a rifle in a fps game, shouldnt have to resort to being a vehicle scrub to take out other vehicle scrubs.
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 1137	Posted - 2014.09.19 01:32:00 - [64] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Just to make one point, I tried all night to just play swarm AV. Proto swarms, not full skills, triple dmg mods. I lost more suits than I have ever lost in a night, and I didn't kill a single dropship, nor a tank. One time I swear the ADS wagged at me as I launched the 3 death swarm, turned around and blasted away and came back to kill me. Admittedly, not the best AVer out there, but, it's not only about not being able to kill vehicles, it's all the times I am trying to chase a double hit dropship or HAV, and get shot by any other infantry. I died 50% from not being able to defend my self against infantry, and the rest by blaster tanks or missile turret ads's. Militia swarms being a threat is class A bs. I have to admit that picturing this gave me a chuckle. I run an ADV Minassault, protoswarm no dmg mods. I run an ASMG w/CPX dmg instead. I kill lots of tanks, I usually feel it is a fair matchup, they also kill me a lot. Dropships are a bit too easy to kill, except Pythons. You can't kill a Python even doing everything right, he has to do something wrong. The frustration is getting them with a sliver of life left, on fire, and they just fly away and come back fully healed right away. Two or three runs and I have no choice but to dance on hives trying to reload while he is shooting at me. I hear people recommend Commando, Mincommando especially, for swarming. I have an alt. fit for this but don't like it. Yes, I hit harder but I lose too much speed and mobility and most of all grenades. A tank or an LAV can see you swarm, drive up to you well before you can seriously hurt him, and then blast you or hop out with an HMG. The ASMG lets me win a few of those but the grenades are my only chance of getting the vehicle kill and probably that is how I get most of them. No grenades, no kill. Because, that's why.
Zindorak 1.U.P 916	Posted - 2014.09.19 01:34:00 - [65] - Quote Bahirae Serugiusu wrote: Zindorak wrote: There's a thing called a Forge Gun learn how to use it Forge guns don't take enough skills. He wants the weapons that take the most skill to do the most damage then Plasma Cannon should be 1 hit kill on ADS buy a militia plasma cannon and try it out in a match and see how well you do compared to whatever you usually use. The projectile is slow, insanely visible, barely any splash damage, hit detection with it sucks, and it drops like crazy and you have to reload for a long time after each shot. Igf it worksthis way then Swarms would do the least amount of damage. I like that Pokemon master! I suck at Tekken lol
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1819	Posted - 2014.09.19 04:39:00 - [66] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Value based balancing is utter crap. By that logic anyone who is facing my proto sents has no business being anything more than a slight distraction and free warpoints. Except for my proto-logi which should find your proto-sentinel to be a slighly annoying gnat. Balancing based upon isk value of fits would result in logis being gods. Now with more evil.
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 2120	Posted - 2014.09.19 04:43:00 - [67] - Quote Joel II X wrote: ADS are faster than swarms. They're not. Have you flown an ADS? I do. They catch up. I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2844	Posted - 2014.09.19 06:39:00 - [68] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: THUNDERGROOVE wrote: Swarms are as effective as they should be for the type of weapon it is. I mean, it really requires almost no skill ... Which is why we've decided to nerf the HMG. Looking back, we probably should've designed it differently; we didn't realize it'd be so easy to use and so powerful. Oh well! - CCP Wow that was weaker than the ADS whining. 1/10 New HMG Design Goals: Teamwork! The new HMG is all about squad play! Focused fire from two will suffice to kill almost any infantry. Individually it will be good at laying down suppressing fire, not unlike a Heavy Machine Gun! We expect Sentinels to find satisfaction in knowing they're keeping the enemy away. Fairness! Many infantry have expressed concerns about HMG range, so we'll be reducing it by three quarters. We'll also be reducing magazine size by 40% in exchange for faster HMG spool up time! So you can get to suppressing faster! Easy! We understand that these are big changes and that Heavies don't have many anti-infantry options. But don't feel bad! Its so easy use! I know that Adipem, but that's an old wound. QUIT PICKING AT IT!!!
Thumb Green Raymond James Corp 1516	Posted - 2014.09.19 06:49:00 - [69] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Joel II X wrote: ADS are faster than swarms. They're not. Have you flown an ADS? I do. They catch up. ADS are faster than swarms. We don't kick ass, we kick dick and we kick it hard. Join us in our Pumpkin Crushing

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 7464	Posted - 2014.09.19 06:55:00 - [70] - Quote Nothing Certain wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Just to make one point, I tried all night to just play swarm AV. Proto swarms, not full skills, triple dmg mods. I lost more suits than I have ever lost in a night, and I didn't kill a single dropship, nor a tank. One time I swear the ADS wagged at me as I launched the 3 death swarm, turned around and blasted away and came back to kill me. Admittedly, not the best AVer out there, but, it's not only about not being able to kill vehicles, it's all the times I am trying to chase a double hit dropship or HAV, and get shot by any other infantry. I died 50% from not being able to defend my self against infantry, and the rest by blaster tanks or missile turret ads's. Militia swarms being a threat is class A bs. I have to admit that picturing this gave me a chuckle. I run an ADV Minassault, protoswarm no dmg mods. I run an ASMG w/CPX dmg instead. I kill lots of tanks, I usually feel it is a fair matchup, they also kill me a lot. Dropships are a bit too easy to kill, except Pythons. You can't kill a Python even doing everything right, he has to do something wrong. The frustration is getting them with a sliver of life left, on fire, and they just fly away and come back fully healed right away. Two or three runs and I have no choice but to dance on hives trying to reload while he is shooting at me. I hear people recommend Commando, Mincommando especially, for swarming. I have an alt. fit for this but don't like it. Yes, I hit harder but I lose too much speed and mobility and most of all grenades. A tank or an LAV can see you swarm, drive up to you well before you can seriously hurt him, and then blast you or hop out with an HMG. The ASMG lets me win a few of those but the grenades are my only chance of getting the vehicle kill and probably that is how I get most of them. No grenades, no kill. Agreed, Assault is probably the most efficient swarm hunter for me. Maybe an Amarr logi with a sidearm, hives and AV grenades but I don't have a single SP in Amarr and am not going to. My swarm/plc galmando was not good enough w/o grenades and slow, and no AV grenades. A tank hit by 2 swarms may get greedy and come after you and then you pop with grenades. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3528	Posted - 2014.09.19 09:24:00 - [71] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Joel II X wrote: ADS are faster than swarms. They're not. Have you flown an ADS? I do. They catch up. Extra Extra! Dev is wrong because Spkr4thedead says so. Unrelated Article: Community suggests Spkr4thedead should learn to read. CCP Rattati wrote: ADS has a faster top speed than Swarms, fact They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2844	Posted - 2014.09.19 09:53:00 - [72] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Agreed, Assault is probably the most efficient swarm hunter for me. Maybe an Amarr logi with a sidearm, hives and AV grenades but I don't have a single SP in Amarr and am not going to. My swarm/plc galmando was not good enough w/o grenades and slow, and no AV grenades. A tank hit by 2 swarms may get greedy and come after you and then you pop with grenades. this is why I run all of the sentinels and commandos. You get eight flavors of a**hole, six of which are functional AV platforms (albeit barely in the case of the Galmando). I've noticed that forge guns are the only truly viable ADS hunting tool for infantry, period. I killed a python with a plasma cannon once, but that was because the first shot tagged the engines and the second Hail Mary shot connected. I have never been able to duplicate the feat. Im laughing my ass off at all of the recent vehicle driver posts claiming that infantry should not be able to kill their pet IWIN butans. By the way, what is the diminishing return formula on modules? And do they stack so that two -20 means a -40% change or is it multiplicative, meaning I have to multiply by .8 twice?
dzizur 6 dayz 99	Posted - 2014.09.19 10:18:00 - [73] - Quote As for problems with infantry when doing AV work - try using a scout with a cloak. when you get spotted (either by the vehicle or infantry) just cloak and run. Speed tanking is also a good idea when trying to sneak on those armor tanks (shield ones are easy when using fluxes). But the most important thing when fighting ADS and DS, fire the first volley AWAY!!! from the vehicle, this way the second volley that you fire directly will hit almost the same time as the first, giving the pilot less time to react, and netting you 75 wp almost every time. Apart from that, IMO it's true that it's nearly impossible to kill a skilled python pilot alone with swarms (especially if he knows how to fit his ADS), but on the other hand they are a great way to boost your WP.
Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 312	Posted - 2014.09.19 10:50:00 - [74] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Nothing Certain wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Just to make one point, I tried all night to just play swarm AV. Proto swarms, not full skills, triple dmg mods. I lost more suits than I have ever lost in a night, and I didn't kill a single dropship, nor a tank. One time I swear the ADS wagged at me as I launched the 3 death swarm, turned around and blasted away and came back to kill me. Admittedly, not the best AVer out there, but, it's not only about not being able to kill vehicles, it's all the times I am trying to chase a double hit dropship or HAV, and get shot by any other infantry. I died 50% from not being able to defend my self against infantry, and the rest by blaster tanks or missile turret ads's. Militia swarms being a threat is class A bs. I have to admit that picturing this gave me a chuckle. I run an ADV Minassault, protoswarm no dmg mods. I run an ASMG w/CPX dmg instead. I kill lots of tanks, I usually feel it is a fair matchup, they also kill me a lot. Dropships are a bit too easy to kill, except Pythons. You can't kill a Python even doing everything right, he has to do something wrong. The frustration is getting them with a sliver of life left, on fire, and they just fly away and come back fully healed right away. Two or three runs and I have no choice but to dance on hives trying to reload while he is shooting at me. I hear people recommend Commando, Mincommando especially, for swarming. I have an alt. fit for this but don't like it. Yes, I hit harder but I lose too much speed and mobility and most of all grenades. A tank or an LAV can see you swarm, drive up to you well before you can seriously hurt him, and then blast you or hop out with an HMG. The ASMG lets me win a few of those but the grenades are my only chance of getting the vehicle kill and probably that is how I get most of them. No grenades, no kill. Agreed, Assault is probably the most efficient swarm hunter for me. Maybe an Amarr logi with a sidearm, hives and AV grenades but I don't have a single SP in Amarr and am not going to. My swarm/plc galmando was not good enough w/o grenades and slow, and no AV grenades. A tank hit by 2 swarms may get greedy and come after you and then you pop with grenades. Assault or logi as swarm plattform? Thats lolworthy at best cause when you go AV you want to avoid infantry at all cost. You should run a scout with a cloak, nanohive and a swarm launcher. Thing is you can decloak when the ADS is not looking at you and start firing swarms into it. When it gets away just reload your swarm and use your cloak again. The ADS will have no way to spot you and you can repeat this without loosing suits. You can argue about a commando caus it can defend itself but the downside is every 1 can see you. The dropship can, the infantry can and as soon you fire swarms it attracts huge attention from infantry. Bright is the opposite of dark! Who would have thought of that?!
NAV HIV The Generals 2132	Posted - 2014.09.19 13:50:00 - [75] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Just to make one point, I tried all night to just play swarm AV. Proto swarms, not full skills, triple dmg mods. I lost more suits than I have ever lost in a night, and I didn't kill a single dropship, nor a tank. One time I swear the ADS wagged at me as I launched the 3 death swarm, turned around and blasted away and came back to kill me. Admittedly, not the best AVer out there, but, it's not only about not being able to kill vehicles, it's all the times I am trying to chase a double hit dropship or HAV, and get shot by any other infantry. I died 50% from not being able to defend my self against infantry, and the rest by blaster tanks or missile turret ads's. Militia swarms being a threat is class A bs. Thank you... I must say, you have a New Fan :) I have Prof 5 Swarm and I use Damage Modded Wyrkomi on my Commando ck0... (I dont have minmando because i don't like any Min Suits, just a Cal Loyalty) I have RR as a Second weapon, since it gives me Bonus damage... I killed two SOMAs so far with that suit and few LAVs... And the Cost of that suit can be very high for new players or players without a lot of ISK... A MLT Heavy + MLT Forge is More effective than that... Honestly, my Madrugar + Blaster/Rail Costs less than My scout ck0
Devadander Woodgrain Atari 107	Posted - 2014.09.19 14:19:00 - [76] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Just to make one point, I tried all night to just play swarm AV. Proto swarms, not full skills, triple dmg mods. I lost more suits than I have ever lost in a night, and I didn't kill a single dropship, nor a tank. One time I swear the ADS wagged at me as I launched the 3 death swarm, turned around and blasted away and came back to kill me. Admittedly, not the best AVer out there, but, it's not only about not being able to kill vehicles, it's all the times I am trying to chase a double hit dropship or HAV, and get shot by any other infantry. I died 50% from not being able to defend my self against infantry, and the rest by blaster tanks or missile turret ads's. Militia swarms being a threat is class A bs. So nice, I wish I could like it twice. I seriously was just browsing, you made me log in "Tossin uplinks and runnin fer my life" ~ Gunny blownapart "Lets group up and push an objective" ~ No blueberry ever
Snake Sellors Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 483	Posted - 2014.09.19 14:33:00 - [77] - Quote Vegetation Monster wrote: Snake Sellors wrote: Foundation Seldon wrote: People in this thread are obviously underestimating the skill it takes to activate an afterburner, get out of dodge in 4-5 seconds, and come back to the same spot moments later fully healed and with your afterburner immediately out of cooldown. When will AV learn that I'm entitled to murder any and everyone from the sky because so many skill points such skill wow. The problem is this.^ an ads pilot will post and complain about how powerful they are, how they should be "area denial weapons" and they should not be able to destroy an ads single handed... but yet for all that noise they will circle back to the same person, over and over and over: they know that if the first volley didn't kill them none of the others will either. they are not even doing area denial if the ads pilot does not feel the need to avoid a player that they know has swarms. there is literally no sense in approaching a genuine threat over and over again, therefore they are not a threat. as for people wanting av to destroy ads as an easy option.. a.v as in anti vehicle.. the ability for a single person to destroy vehicles has been around almost as long as vehicles in war have.. ww2. carrying swarms is not such an easy option, it leaves most players with only the option of using the sidearm against infantry. glad to see that rattati has tried to swarm for a whole night to get an unbiased view. You guys act like Sidearms don't do the job well. SMG is like one of the most powerful guns our there. Learn to use it. Also, if you are more skillful use ScP. It rewards you more. Lol. Yes sure it compares really well to a rail rifle at range and outperforms hmgs and shotguns at closer ranges. I completely forgot that smgs are totally more powerful than light weapons and that they out range all of the rifles people use and that they are-áthe best way to play dust. Y'know with two smgs in fact you don't even need swarms let's just sway those pesky ads down with those.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 4997	Posted - 2014.09.19 14:45:00 - [78] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Easy! We understand that these are big nerfs and that Heavies don't have many anti-infantry options. But don't feel bad! The HMG is easy use! I know that Adipem, but that's an old wound. QUIT PICKING AT IT!!! Roger that. My point is that double standards are no bueno. A number of Pilots have conceded that Swarms are crap but immediately follow the thought with "... they're easy to use so they're supposed to be crap." This ease-of-use standard isn't applied to any other item in the game, yet Pilots point to it as justification for doing nothing to fix ineffective Swarms. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 783	Posted - 2014.09.19 15:47:00 - [79] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: i was going for ultimate max dmg to "prove a point" Which you obviously were not doing, since a PRO MinCom has 2 highs... Snake Sellors wrote: glad to see that rattati has tried to swarm for a whole night to get an unbiased view. I look forward to seeing Rattati piloting to see what it's like from our POV. Y'know, s it's actually unbiased and not entirely biased by focusing on only one side of the argument. Alt of Halla Murr.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 7501	Posted - 2014.09.19 15:51:00 - [80] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: i was going for ultimate max dmg to "prove a point" Which you obviously were not doing, since a PRO MinCom has 2 highs... Snake Sellors wrote: glad to see that rattati has tried to swarm for a whole night to get an unbiased view. I look forward to seeing Rattati piloting to see what it's like from our POV. Y'know, s it's actually unbiased and not entirely biased by focusing on only one side of the argument. I was making sure my math wasn't wrong. It wasn't. I don't need to do anything else. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


Jack 3enimble Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 391	Posted - 2014.09.19 16:38:00 - [81] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: i was going for ultimate max dmg to "prove a point" Which you obviously were not doing, since a PRO MinCom has 2 highs... Snake Sellors wrote: glad to see that rattati has tried to swarm for a whole night to get an unbiased view. I look forward to seeing Rattati piloting to see what it's like from our POV. Y'know, s it's actually unbiased and not entirely biased by focusing on only one side of the argument. I was making sure my math wasn't wrong. It wasn't. I don't need to do anything else. GG Rattati. People need to realise that taking jabs at the one Dev that actually makes the game better isn't the way to go. As for the people who pilot (the true ones you know, like in pc). You all know that 2 ADS can dominate a game, plain and simple. Although I respect ADS pilots for their skill , 2 ADS should not dominate a whole match. keep it real. Dumbasses
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2861	Posted - 2014.09.19 16:39:00 - [82] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: I look forward to seeing Rattati piloting to see what it's like from our POV. Y'know, s it's actually unbiased and not entirely biased by focusing on only one side of the argument. What,so he can spend a whole night training himself to pull the lunatic flight escape tricks while getting pasted left and right? Yes that will TOTALLY give a fair and unbiased view of vehicles. New dropship pilots are flying money sinks for about a month before it fully clicks.
Demandred Moores Ghosts of Dawn General Tso's Alliance 21	Posted - 2014.09.19 16:52:00 - [83] - Quote Tell me, why should you're 2k swarms be able to do anymore than detour my 1m dropship?
Justin Tymes Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance 757	Posted - 2014.09.19 17:05:00 - [84] - Quote Demandred Moores wrote: Tell me, why should you're 2k swarms be able to do anymore than detour my 1m dropship? Why should my 250k+ Logisuit be melted by Militia and Standard Rifles under 1k?
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2861	Posted - 2014.09.19 17:07:00 - [85] - Quote Demandred Moores wrote: Tell me, why should you're 2k swarms be able to do anymore than detour my 1m dropship? You mean the 130-150k dropsuit that has swarms on it? Heres a reason: more ISK spent shouldn't automatically mean invincibility. And the only swarms that cost 2k (actually 1500) are standard. Proto (which rattati was using) start at right around 50k. And if you're gonna pull THAT BS card, why does your 50k small missile turret do more than tickle my 150,000 ISK dropsuit? Seriously, thats the argument that you are using. It's freaking childish.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 784	Posted - 2014.09.19 17:10:00 - [86] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I don't need to do anything else. Fine. Didn't say that you had to. But I love that you're willing to test Swarms but unwilling to test ADSs. Jack 3enimble wrote: GG Rattati. People need to realise that taking jabs at the one Dev that actually makes the game better isn't the way to go. As for the people who pilot (the true ones you know, like in pc). You all know that 2 ADS can dominate a game, plain and simple. Although I respect ADS pilots for their skill , 2 ADS should not dominate a whole match. keep it real. Dumbasses Not jabbing him, though I am exasperated by the disparity between the willingness to test various approaches to the game. ADSs are as much a part of the game as Swarms: why does flying an ADS to better understand that side's point of view not constitute as much value as testing Swarms against said ADSs? If both sides are to coexist, why does one take priority? Swarms definitely do not hold all of the cards, but they have some substantial advantages that should not be dismissed. ADSs are too effective: most ADS pilots would agree. Most would argue against AV buffs, primarily because of experience fighting against them so much. There actually have been suggestions for altering ADS power balance - Numnutz brought up the idea of reducing missile damage, increasing clip size to normalise the damage and possibly tweaking ROF. But no, let's focus on the ADS pilots not wanting AV buffed too much, and utterly ignore any suggestions that have been brought up...which is usually what happens. Breakin Stuff wrote: What,so he can spend a whole night training himself to pull the lunatic flight escape tricks while getting pasted left and right? Yes that will TOTALLY give a fair and unbiased view of vehicles. New dropship pilots are flying money sinks for about a month before it fully clicks. Yeah, essentially. I offered every ISK/Dropship I have to give Rattati an ISK buffer such that he can experience what we have to do in the air. In doing so, I had hope it would provide greater insight into the ADS/Swarm/Forge balance, considering he is the Dev in charge. But apparently wanting a balanced view on the situation is wanting to maintain the status quo, keep my oh-so-sustainable murder machine that can never die. Buff away. I'll still fly, just like I did pre-1.7. I would just rather have a balanced approach rather than ramping up each side until we need to do the same again to the other/tear down what we did. Alt of Halla Murr.
Demandred Moores Ghosts of Dawn General Tso's Alliance 21	Posted - 2014.09.19 17:12:00 - [87] - Quote My bad on a phone I meant 20k. And the amount of sp spent? And the skill it took to learn how to fly? As apposed to proto in one gun and auto lock?
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2861	Posted - 2014.09.19 17:13:00 - [88] - Quote How is making it so missiles can actually catch a dropship unfair? Besides the plasma cannon projectile speed increase THERE ARE NO OTHER AV BUFFS IN THE WORKS. Being able to outrun a missile is idiotic. Especially when the missile ability to pull a 180 degree turn instantly is going away.
Demandred Moores Ghosts of Dawn General Tso's Alliance 21	Posted - 2014.09.19 17:30:00 - [89] - Quote I will have a sct so far up your proto swarming *** so fast if it makes my fully proto'd Derp drop you'll regret shooting it down. So whatever 7 proto roles ftw.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 784	Posted - 2014.09.19 17:37:00 - [90] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: How is making it so missiles can actually catch a dropship unfair? Besides the plasma cannon projectile speed increase THERE ARE NO OTHER AV BUFFS IN THE WORKS. Being able to outrun a missile is idiotic. Especially when the missile ability to pull a 180 degree turn instantly is going away. Well, I actually don't think the current proposal is terrible, but there is a great bias towards the Swarms present in every discussion about ADS/AV balance which I wouikd really like to see be balanced out by having the dev responsible having actual experience own ADS. Alt of Halla Murr.

Demandred Moores Ghosts of Dawn General Tso's Alliance 21	Posted - 2014.09.19 17:44:00 - [91] - Quote I would rather fly against a forge because I can fight him and make him miss. So if the 90 degrees makes it to where I can make him miss I will stop whining.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2863	Posted - 2014.09.19 17:50:00 - [92] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: How is making it so missiles can actually catch a dropship unfair? Besides the plasma cannon projectile speed increase THERE ARE NO OTHER AV BUFFS IN THE WORKS. Being able to outrun a missile is idiotic. Especially when the missile ability to pull a 180 degree turn instantly is going away. Well, I actually don't think the current proposal is terrible, but there is a great bias towards the Swarms present in every discussion about ADS/AV balance which I wouikd really like to see be balanced out by having the dev responsible having actual experience own ADS. Most AV gunners are in favor of the swarms being reasonably CAPABLE of killing an ADS. There is little to no desire for swarms to become the IWIN butan vs. ADS. However to hear the reactionary screaming from most of the vehicle pilots you would think Rattati has offered mortal insult immediately before physically assaulting their mothers. Its funny and childish but its how people are reacting to "swarms can catch you now".
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2362	Posted - 2014.09.19 18:58:00 - [93] - Quote To all the people saying it should take two swarmers to take out a vehicle...what if there are two vehicles working together? "Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ Give the Minja active dampening!--By Bor
MrShooter01 Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 850	Posted - 2014.09.19 19:35:00 - [94] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: [quote=CCP Rattati] By the way, what is the diminishing return formula on modules? And do they stack so that two -20 means a -40% change or is it multiplicative, meaning I have to multiply by .8 twice? As far as we've been able to figure out its the same as it is in EVE Handy reference sheet 1st mod: 100% effectiveness 2nd mod: 86.9% effectiveness 3rd mod: 57.1% effectiveness 4th mod: 28.3% effectiveness Complex Light damage mods: #1: 7% bonus #2: 6% bonus #3: 4% bonus Complex Heavy damage mods: #1: 5% bonus #2: 4.3% bonus #3: 2.8% bonus Complex Sidearm damage mods: #1: 8% bonus #2: 6.9% bonus #3: 4.5% bonus I didn't even bother to save the percentage for the 4th and 5th mod, their effect is so low that virtually any other module would be a better idea The stacking penalty only counts modules, so if you have a skill bonus to the attribute that doesn't penalize the first module you put on (commando damage bonus, for example) All % bonuses in the game are multiplicative, except for the different levels of one skill. The bonus for each level of the same skill is added up before being applied to something (level 3 skill with a 5% bonus per level is 5% +5% +5% = 15% bonus), different skills affecting the same attribute and each individual module are multiplicative. so for example on a minmatar commando with level 5 suit skill and 2 complex damage mods shooting a proto swarm: 1248 base damage, 1.1 skill bonus = 1,372.8, (125 more damage) 1st damage mod: 1.07 = 1468.9 (96 more damage) 2nd damage mod: *1.06 = 1557 (88 more damage) this is not of course taking into account the fact that half of those missiles are going to derp their way into a rock or lamppost
You Are Inferior Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2014.09.19 19:45:00 - [95] - Quote I Shot once on a ads with a swarm and was one shotted under cover in 5 sec a few min ago I was one shotted out of my lav way op when someone has a mouse in there hands. It didn't taste like abortion.?.?.
Immortal John Ripper 24737	Posted - 2014.09.19 22:14:00 - [96] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Just to make one point, I tried all night to just play swarm AV. Proto swarms, not full skills, triple dmg mods. I lost more suits than I have ever lost in a night, and I didn't kill a single dropship, nor a tank. One time I swear the ADS wagged at me as I launched the 3 death swarm, turned around and blasted away and came back to kill me. Admittedly, not the best AVer out there, but, it's not only about not being able to kill vehicles, it's all the times I am trying to chase a double hit dropship or HAV, and get shot by any other infantry. I died 50% from not being able to defend my self against infantry, and the rest by blaster tanks or missile turret ads's. Militia swarms being a threat is class A bs. I wish I had the ability to like this. I would like your post if I could but CCP nerfed my like button and took it away. :(
Vegetation Monster G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 293	Posted - 2014.09.20 00:09:00 - [97] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: i was going for ultimate max dmg to "prove a point" Which you obviously were not doing, since a PRO MinCom has 2 highs... Snake Sellors wrote: glad to see that rattati has tried to swarm for a whole night to get an unbiased view. I look forward to seeing Rattati piloting to see what it's like from our POV. Y'know, s it's actually unbiased and not entirely biased by focusing on only one side of the argument. I was making sure my math wasn't wrong. It wasn't. I don't need to do anything else. Rattati, I triple dog dare you to go fly ADS's. Make sure you only put in about the same Sp you put into swarm suit. Try to kill at least 5 protos in a match. B Double O T Y
Vegetation Monster G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 293	Posted - 2014.09.20 00:12:00 - [98] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: How is making it so missiles can actually catch a dropship unfair? Besides the plasma cannon projectile speed increase THERE ARE NO OTHER AV BUFFS IN THE WORKS. Being able to outrun a missile is idiotic. Especially when the missile ability to pull a 180 degree turn instantly is going away. Don't forget, the 180 degree turn requires on loss in speed. B Double O T Y
Atiim 12305	Posted - 2014.09.20 00:13:00 - [99] - Quote Vegetation Monster wrote: Rattati, I triple dog dare you to go fly ADS's. Make sure you only put in about the same Sp you put into swarm suit. Try to kill at least 5 protos in a match. If you do take this challange CCP Rattati, get your RoF skills to 3 and it'll be trivial. The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
Vegetation Monster G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 293	Posted - 2014.09.20 00:14:00 - [100] - Quote Atiim wrote: Vegetation Monster wrote: Rattati, I triple dog dare you to go fly ADS's. Make sure you only put in about the same Sp you put into swarm suit. Try to kill at least 5 protos in a match. If you do take this challange CCP Rattati, get your RoF skills to 3 and it'll be trivial. Remember he can only spend = amount of sp that he spent on the AV fit. He's a dev. He has unlimited Sp right? B Double O T Y

Atiim 12306	Posted - 2014.09.20 00:18:00 - [101] - Quote Vegetation Monster wrote: Atiim wrote: Vegetation Monster wrote: Rattati, I triple dog dare you to go fly ADS's. Make sure you only put in about the same Sp you put into swarm suit. Try to kill at least 5 protos in a match. If you do take this challange CCP Rattati, get your RoF skills to 3 and it'll be trivial. Remember he can only spend = amount of sp that he spent on the AV fit. He's a dev. He has unlimited Sp right? With that amount of SP it would be easy. You seem to be under the assumtion that getting 5 kills with an ADS is difficult. The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
Vegetation Monster G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 293	Posted - 2014.09.20 00:20:00 - [102] - Quote Atiim wrote: Vegetation Monster wrote: Atiim wrote: Vegetation Monster wrote: Rattati, I triple dog dare you to go fly ADS's. Make sure you only put in about the same Sp you put into swarm suit. Try to kill at least 5 protos in a match. If you do take this challange CCP Rattati, get your RoF skills to 3 and it'll be trivial. Remember he can only spend = amount of sp that he spent on the AV fit. He's a dev. He has unlimited Sp right? With that amount of SP it would be easy. You seem to be under the assumtion that getting 5 kills with an ADS is difficult. Yeah, especially for skill-less lock on swarm users. They have to be proto kills not just one hitting noobs because we all know that proto fitted ADS's can easily destroy starter fits just like proto swarms can easily destroy militia vehicles. B Double O T Y
Vegetation Monster G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 293	Posted - 2014.09.20 00:24:00 - [103] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Just to make one point, I tried all night to just play swarm AV. Proto swarms, not full skills, triple dmg mods. I lost more suits than I have ever lost in a night, and I didn't kill a single dropship, nor a tank. One time I swear the ADS wagged at me as I launched the 3 death swarm, turned around and blasted away and came back to kill me. Admittedly, not the best AVer out there, but, it's not only about not being able to kill vehicles, it's all the times I am trying to chase a double hit dropship or HAV, and get shot by any other infantry. I died 50% from not being able to defend my self against infantry, and the rest by blaster tanks or missile turret ads's. Militia swarms being a threat is class A bs. Good. A ridiculous free suit shouldn't be able to do anything to a million isk vehicle. There is a thing called value to consider. Now, had you friends helping out or god forbid a forge gun you would have killed all of your targets. And had you played commando you would've been able to fight off infantry threats and drive away vehicle threats. Now if an ADS is flying so fast he can't be hit by swarms, he can't hit his targets on the ground either. That means without killing him, you nullified him as a threat. If you want that to feel more rewarding I recommend you change the acceleration, but not the top speed, of an ADS. That allows quick blow-throughs to outrun all swarms, as they should be able to, but doesn't allow them to escape when they've been hovering around like jackasses because they won't be able to accelerate to that top speed fast enough. Just don't use a free suit and expect value, because you deserve none. 1) He was using PRO Swarms with 3x Damage Mods, he is toting the best AV weaponry available, not accounting for his skill (no offence - R), he should have at least made 1 kill against a vehicle over a nights worth of public matches. 2) So let me see if I understand this. A MLT Frontline Dropsuit kiling a PRO Dropsuit - Fine (0:120,000) A MLT Tank killing multiple PRO Dropsuits - Fine (70,000:5,000,000) A MLT Swarm being barely a threat - God Forbid 3) Yes when you starting bringing up value you have to remember the value of the AV suits used against you too. My current Assault AV fitting at 65,000 ISK (ADV) is onlt good for ONE vehicle, if I'm successful in destroying a vehicle I must then FIGHT my way back to a suply depot so that I have enoigh munitions to take on another. On average an AVer will die 3-4 for each vehicle he suppresses/kills, he can't engage the tank with a reckless regard for his own well being, he would be too ineffective. Chances are as you roll in in a tank , your tagged. But the AVer has to ensure he will do enough damage to kill. 4) Commandos make poor AV units, they lack many required traits that make other suits desirable for AV duties, he also receives no eHP bonuses over most medium suits and lacks the versatility required. Commandos are a Jack of all trades class much more so than the Assault. 5) Finally mlt tank, mlt AV, why is one allowed to be as equally powerful as it's skilled variation but the other not? guess you have never used AV efficiently. Running around in CQC maps w/ heavies infesting Dust, is just plain stupid on your part. Maybe try getting on a tower. Nothing is more annoying than a tower camper. Anyway, Av'ers get tons of WP even if the don't kill the vehicles. I get alone like 300+ WP from militia tanks. 100+ from militia LAVs and tons and tons from ADS's. I'm actually more happy the more swarms it takes to kill a thing. = more WP. Maybe you AV need to look on the good side. B Double O T Y
Sylwester Dziewiecki Interregnum. 367	Posted - 2014.09.20 06:46:00 - [104] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Just to make one point, I tried all night to just play swarm AV. Proto swarms, not full skills, triple dmg mods. I lost more suits than I have ever lost in a night, and I didn't kill a single dropship, nor a tank. One time I swear the ADS wagged at me as I launched the 3 death swarm, turned around and blasted away and came back to kill me. Admittedly, not the best AVer out there, but, it's not only about not being able to kill vehicles, it's all the times I am trying to chase a double hit dropship or HAV, and get shot by any other infantry. I died 50% from not being able to defend my self against infantry, and the rest by blaster tanks or missile turret ads's. Militia swarms being a threat is class A bs. Did you try to play as a squad? Gallente Speed Scout. EVE side of me: Nosum Hseebnrido
Devadander Woodgrain Atari 109	Posted - 2014.09.20 11:49:00 - [105] - Quote For every 100 targets locked with my swarms, 1 dies (excluding MLT LAV lolz, Including MLT tanks). CBR with trip dmg and V op. For every 100 tanks an ADS sees, I can save maybe 5. 25 mil invested, V's everywhere Just sayin couwtfgh Let payday hit and let me get my recording setup, set up... I'll show you guys what the trenches look like to your target consumers. And yes, when I tank I'm known to linger and bathe in your swarms to show you idc... so there's that as well. "Tossin uplinks and runnin fer my life" ~ Gunny blownapart "Lets group up and push an objective" ~ No blueberry ever
IMMORTAL WAR HERO NECROM0NGERS 210	Posted - 2014.09.20 12:03:00 - [106] - Quote Vegetation Monster wrote: Rattati nerfs ADS because apparently the Skilled ADS pilots were too hard for lock on swarm users to kill. What is happening? Is COD getting to CCP's head? It is sad to see dust reward skill-less players more than the ones with the skill. Probably going to get banned because on these forums you are not allowed to express opinion or say even a minor bad thing about CCP. See y'all in Destiny!! WOO!! At least Destiny isn't made by blind brainless apes. (Not specifically pointing at CCP). what are you talking about other than incubus win because of collision dmg pythons are better than theve ever been i can fit 3400 sheild on a python Frowned upon by amateurs: The object of war is not to die for your country but make the other bastard die for his. GSP
Repe Susi Rautaleijona 1435	Posted - 2014.09.20 13:21:00 - [107] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: I feel like I need to do a stream and show you how its done properly. Please do! And do it VERY fast before every swarm user comes and slaps you with a ******* trout for your incredible stupidness. And throw a proto Minmatar commando in the mix as well if you have one. This has got to be the most boldest claim I've ever heard in the forums. Live up to it. EDIT: Ok I saw your 'report'. Still waiting for the video. Still waiting to see how you kill ADSs' with a swarms reliably. Oh wait you are not supposed to kill dropships with swarms, only chase them away? Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful. It's the transition that's troublesome. ~ Isaac Asimov
Skippy Longstocking Paladin Survey Force Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2014.09.20 13:35:00 - [108] - Quote Repe Susi wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: I feel like I need to do a stream and show you how its done properly. Please do! And do it VERY fast before every swarm user comes and slaps you with a ******* trout for your incredible stupidness. And throw a proto Minmatar commando in the mix as well if you have one. This has got to be the most boldest claim I've ever heard in the forums. Live up to it. EDIT: Ok I saw your 'report'. Still waiting for the video. Still waiting to see how you kill ADSs' with a swarms reliably. Oh wait you are not supposed to kill dropships with swarms, only chase them away? Personally, I'm expecting nothing less than a VERY edited "best-of" highlight reel, where any footage that supports the claim that AV is UP is "conveniently" edited out. This may take some time.
CommanderBolt TerranProtossZerg 1681	Posted - 2014.09.20 13:49:00 - [109] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Just to make one point, I tried all night to just play swarm AV. Proto swarms, not full skills, triple dmg mods. I lost more suits than I have ever lost in a night, and I didn't kill a single dropship, nor a tank. One time I swear the ADS wagged at me as I launched the 3 death swarm, turned around and blasted away and came back to kill me. Admittedly, not the best AVer out there, but, it's not only about not being able to kill vehicles, it's all the times I am trying to chase a double hit dropship or HAV, and get shot by any other infantry. I died 50% from not being able to defend my self against infantry, and the rest by blaster tanks or missile turret ads's. Militia swarms being a threat is class A bs. Who has ever said that militia swarms were anything more than a shiny to hold for the "MCC Crouchers" (Aka starter suit AFKers) -=#[ Gastun's Forge ]#=- MY LIFE FOR AIUR! "I'm wasting away here" - "Get me back into zee fight!
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5029	Posted - 2014.09.20 13:56:00 - [110] - Quote Sylwester Dziewiecki wrote: edit: ..and just one thing to add - if players was chose to every match in way that allow for balance fight we wouldn't have balancing problems. Each time ADS pilot is getting to battle he should get decent AV in opposite team. "Decent" is key. We should revisit that thought once Swarms are decent. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley

BONERBOMB TIGBITTIES THE BONERBOMBS 23	Posted - 2014.09.20 14:00:00 - [111] - Quote Derpty Derp wrote: Joel II X wrote: ADS are faster than swarms. Not agreeing with this topic... But swarms and ads have the same top speed. Swarms also have better acceleration than the ads, only the afterburner allows the ads to reach it's top speed quicker. fact is you can never pull away from swarms, only outlast them if going quicker... They also follow your exact flight path so they don't hit walls unless fired at one by a moron (like me.) The only way I can outrun a swarm with my ads (no afterburner) is on a map with a big ass cliff that gives me room to pretty much fall for a good few seconds without hitting the floor, gives enough speed to stay ahead of the swarm if it was fired from a good distance. So yeah, the afterburner is the main reason for this argument, but everyone shat on ads because they don't like getting popped by missiles when there's no av about. However if the turn speed nerf on swarms is enough to actually allow me to fly behind cover without getting blown into it after the swarm does a nice instant 90 degree turn at the corner of a building, then I'm happy either way. Meee One wrote: Try running support logistics for a match or two. Then,after swallowing that humble pie,return to you ADS and appreciate those thousands of extra eHP . I had to lol... holding a rep tool and spamming uplinks/hives is difficult how? Outrunning swarms is easy... You turn the dropship sideways while flying and the thrusters point downward if the ship is held at the right angle. I do it all the time in the incubus. I've had multiple volleys following me at once and I turn sideways and they explode a ways away from my dropship. I enjoy beverage I manage beverage But mostly enjoy beverage
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 549	Posted - 2014.09.23 11:41:00 - [112] - Quote CharacterNameWasTaken wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: ResistanceGTA wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Just to make one point, I tried all night to just play swarm AV. Proto swarms, not full skills, triple dmg mods. I lost more suits than I have ever lost in a night, and I didn't kill a single dropship, nor a tank. One time I swear the ADS wagged at me as I launched the 3 death swarm, turned around and blasted away and came back to kill me. Admittedly, not the best AVer out there, but, it's not only about not being able to kill vehicles, it's all the times I am trying to chase a double hit dropship or HAV, and get shot by any other infantry. I died 50% from not being able to defend my self against infantry, and the rest by blaster tanks or missile turret ads's. Militia swarms being a threat is class A bs. I'm no expert here, but, those sound like fighting words.. And too many damage mods, come on. i was going for ultimate max dmg to "prove a point" i dont recommend light av weapons on anything other than commandos. which btw would be great if you found a way to give caldari commandos a bonus to swarms. the ability to defend against infantry as well as vehicles is the strength of the commando class IMO. yeah beacuse swarms look like a rail weapon to me too. Use a min commando if you want a swarm bonus. they look like a caldari weapon. if thye cant change it, then remove the minmatar explosive bonus. nobody else gets bonuses to two separate weapon classes


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