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Vell0cet
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Squad.
1454
   |
Posted - 2014.04.28 20:46:00 -
[1] - Quote
NOT WHAT YOU THINK IT IS
Let me begin by explaining that the term GÇ£tiericide GÇ£is being used very differently by those advocating for it in DUST and how it was implemented in EVE. In EVE T1 ships were GÇ£tieredGÇ¥ in that you gained access to them as different levels of skill. To make this more concrete, it would be like unlocking Amarr Assault at Amarr Medium level 3 and Amarr Logistics at level 5, with the Amarr Logistics suits having better stats than the Amarr Assault. This made no sense. In EVE they GÇ£tiericidedGÇ¥ T1 ships, so all T1 Cruisers of a given race are roughly equal in their respective roles.
GǪBUT THERE ARE STILL TIERS IN EVE! To use an example, You have the Omen which is an Amarr T1 cruiser, the Navy Omen which is an all-around better version, the Zealot which is a T2 version of the Omen and thereGÇÖs the T3 Legion which can be configured to be an Omen on steroids. There is a huge power gap between an Omen and a Zealot for example. All tiericide did was make the Arbitrator, Augoror, Maller and the Omen all equivalent in power in their respective roles in the same way that a Commando and a Sentinel are roughly equivalent in their roles. Furthermore, tiers exist for modules and gear as well. There are T1 modules, T2, Faction stuff, and Deadspace/Officer modules. Using higher meta modules will give you a MASSIVE advantage over someone with lower meta fits (in EVE the fits are often much more expensive than the hull).
RISK vs. ISK
This is the mechanism that sets this game apart from every other FPS ever made and also makes it the most interesting. The premise is simple: you can buy a significant power advantage over other players by risking the loss of expensive fits and taking the chance of loosing a significant amount of ISK. This is a really interesting mechanism that puts this game above the rest. It incentivizes players to focus on survivability, avoid needless losses, fight smart and use teamwork. Fights are much more realistic because players sometimes have a lot on the line, and will go to great lengths to avoid death (just like a real soldier might). Gameplay plays out much differently in this game than in others as a result. In other games, itGÇÖs spawn, kill, die, respawn, repeat. Death has little-to-no consequence. With DUST not only is there the existence of consequences, but the player chooses the degree to how severe the consequences of death are every time they pick a suit to spawn in with. The range is from negligible consequences in free suits (just stats) to massive losses that can represent hours of playtime to recover from. It produces an emotional connection to your character, where you actually fear death, and it makes you care about survival. This is a very rich and interesting mechanic, that not only defines DUST, but distinguishes it from all other FPS games in the market. Choice, consequences, meaning: itGÇÖs the GÇ£special sauceGÇ¥ of DUST 514.
It also creates interesting incentives to use cheap gear to kill expensive suits. Not only is this an immensely satisfying way to play the game, it creates variety and produces a whole layer of ISK-efficient fittings. Despite having over 35 mill SP, I normally run STD suits with good modules; itGÇÖs fun and challenging and helps pay for those times I get angry and make poor decisions (like repeatedly loosing PRO suits trying to get revenge when IGÇÖm getting stomped).
Tiericide destroys most of the risk vs. ISK mechanic. Some variants of tiericide proposals still have some degrees of risk vs. ISK with modules still being tiered, but to a large extent, they all dramatically water-down this aspect of the game, and will fundamentally affect gameplay. People wonGÇÖt have the same adrenalin from trying to avoid death because the risk vs. ISK mechanism has been watered down.
BPOs
Tiericide would produce massive, unsolvable problems with the existing BPOs. LetGÇÖs say CCP got rid of STD and ADV gear so everyone has PRO suits (with different specializations as some advocate for). CCP now has to decide what to do with the BPOs theyGÇÖve been paid for. They could promote all BPOs to PRO level, but that would truly break the economy. As they exist nowGÇöwith no new BPOGÇÖs being sold and being restricted to MLT and STD, their impact on the economy is fairly small (decreasing over time), but if they were of the same tier that everyone else was using, then it would break the game.
The alternatives all amount to fundamentally altering the value of what players paid for when they bough BPOs. Keeping them STD while all other suits get promoted to PRO would make them worthless, refunding them would be a slap-in-the-face, and isnGÇÖt really even possible with things like the Templar set. This would also create a huge financial burden on CCP. Even if they refunded AUR and kept our cash, many of us wouldnGÇÖt need to buy more AUR for a very long timeGÇöand would probably feel so betrayed, you might see many BPO owning vets leave. They could implement some form of crafting and have BPOGÇÖs play a role in that, but it would require a huge amount of development resources to implement that would be much better spent on gameplay, and youGÇÖd still be left with the issue of CCP fundamentally altering your purchase into something very different that what you paid money for. Lastly they could be converted into some cosmetic mechanism and remove the free suit aspect, which again would enrage a lot of their biggest financial supporters.
There is no good solution to the BPO dilemma that tiericide would create.
(continued)
Best PvE idea ever!
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Vell0cet
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Squad.
1454
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Posted - 2014.04.28 20:46:00 -
[2] - Quote
AUR GEAR
Tiericide would ruin the AUR market. AUR gear promises to give early access to gear before you have the skills to use it. This goes away when everyone has access to everything with minimal SP requirements. I donGÇÖt know what percentage of DUST 514GÇÖs revenue is produced by AUR gear sales vs. Boosters, but I suspect this would hurt CCPGÇÖs bottom line. The game canGÇÖt afford to take hits to its income stream. DUST needs a much bigger development team to get to where we all want it to be. This requires money (the real life kind) and tiericide would cut-into revenue (which I suspect is not where CCP wants it to be).
POWER DIVIDE
As I understand it, the primary reason some of the tiericide advocates are promoting it is to reduce the power gap. This game is built on the idea of a power gap. ItGÇÖs the primary motivation for investing time and effort into improving your character. ItGÇÖs arguably the reason EVE as grown every year since launch. If you make the power gap too small, this incentive to invest time, ISK, and real money evaporates, along with the player base and CCPGÇÖs budget. This is an MMORPG, there are plenty of GÇ£fairGÇ¥ shooters where everyone is equal and only gun game matters. The fact that SP, fits, teamwork, gun game, and intelligence all factor into your ability to do well is what makes this the most deep, rich, and interesting FPS ever made. Remove (or reduce too much) the RPG aspects of the game and youGÇÖll loose a lot of what makes this game special. YouGÇÖre essentially trading a short-term gain in accessibility of DUST for the long-term sustainability of a game that rewards commitment and effort by vets (think about how many would biomass if you removed all SP).
Either the power gap is sufficient to incentivize players to commit for the long haul, and put in the time and effort, or itGÇÖs not. Tiericide greatly reduces this incentive. Furthermore, youGÇÖre still going to have SP power gaps (which are much more dramatic than the gear). So itGÇÖs a poor solution for achieving a questionable goal. IGÇÖve heard it suggested that getting lvl 1 in a skill would unlock access to all tiers as one option. This would still have the problem of greatly reducing demand for AUR gear, but otherwise this is a much more reasonable approach to reducing the power gap of gear (while still preserving the risk vs. ISK mechanism that makes this game so great).
NPE
Advocates of tiericide seem to think this is the solution to the new player experience issues, specifically new players being stomped and quitting DUST. I can assure you that new players will continue to be stomped even if all gear was STD and there was no SP. Teamwork, knowledge of the maps/game mechanics, and experience are huge advantages in this game. DonGÇÖt agree with me? Try it out. Get 6 friends together, make a squad of brand-new alts and stomp in the academy. Tiericide is a poor solution to this problem. The problem isnGÇÖt PRO vs. new players in STD, itGÇÖs new players in the same matches with vets.
TIERS ARENGÇÖT THE PROBLEM
Tiericide wonGÇÖt fix the problems with this game, and will generate many new problems of their own (see above). IGÇÖll elaborate on the issues and solutions that are better than tiericide.
NPE SUCKS
The biggest problem with the NPE is the lack of a solid gameplay tutorial. It needs to be story-based and walk the player through the gameplay mechanics in a fun and compelling way. It should have a story, have Portal-like dark humor and Halo-like tutorial action/intensity in a heavily scripted mission that GÇ£sells the gameGÇ¥ on itGÇÖs features highlighting all of the awesome things you can do in DUST. There should be a militia version of everything, there should be more starter suits, and there should be a test range where you can play around with suits/weapons/vehicles/fits to see what youGÇÖre interested in investing SP into. IGÇÖd like to see CCP introduce a test game mode where you can deploy to a test map solo, or with friends (teamkilling is on). In this mode you would have infinite SP and everything costs 0ISK. You wouldnGÇÖt earn ISK or SP, and it wouldnGÇÖt effect your stats in any way. There would be static NPCGÇÖs you can shoot to test fittings. Ideally you could configure NPC skills and SP as well (i.e. walk up to them, press a button and you can access their SP tree and fit their suit/vehicle). You would basically have a consequence-free sandbox to goof around, test mechanics, make Judge-like YouTube videos, etc.
Next, we need to address the real problem with new players being stomped, and that is new players being put in matches with vets. We need an optional 2nd tier academy mode for players under some SP threshold. The threshold should be high enough that you can GÇ£graduateGÇ¥ from this academy and field a reasonably competitive fit (e.g. one solid ADV fit with some decent core skills), but not so high that those about to graduate are stomping the newest players in the pool. I think 5mill SP is probably around that magic number. This mode would be the only game mode checked by default when you graduate from the initial academy (to be replaced by the story-based tutorial whenever thatGÇÖs done). You could still participate in regular pubs, FW, even PC (unlikely anyone would want you, but not prohibited by the game). Having a second tier academy is a thousand-times better solution than tiericide to the new players being stomped issue.
(continued)
Best PvE idea ever!
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Vell0cet
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Squad.
1454
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Posted - 2014.04.28 20:47:00 -
[3] - Quote
Additionally, teamwork is a major part of why organized squads (even if they were all wearing STD) are so lethal in this game. New players need to be GÇ£socializedGÇ¥ as quickly as possible. Not only does forming friendships create a strong incentive to stick around, it helps alleviate shortcomings in the tutorials, and is the only reasonable way to counter organized squads of good players. To address this, we need a new menu for new player corp recruitment. Essentially it would be a list of corps who have registered with CCP (possibly for a monthly ISK fee) to be listed as specifically wanting brand-new players. CCP has final approval of all corps in the list. The list will show the corp name, number of players, number of active players, tax rate, a 200 word-or-less description the CEO writes and submits to CCP for approval. Accessing this menu should be part of the tutorial, and joining a corp should grant a reward. I could see this as a useful recruiting tool for corps like DUST University. I think it would dramatically increase new player retention.
THE ECONOMY SUCKS
Part of the problem with PRO gear is that the economy is broken. With DNS taking over PC there is way too much ISK being generated without the right ISK sinks to destroy it. People are pub stomping as a result, and this is bad for the game. The solution isnGÇÖt tiericide. The solution is to fix the economy. For one thing, PRO suits are way too cheap and STD are too expensive. There should be a much steeper cost curve so you get linear improvement in performance for an exponential increase in cost. It works this way in EVE and it works well. People should be very nervous to run their PRO fits (like they are with their Thales). They should be for PC and special occasions (like revenge). Furthermore, there needs to be big ISK sinks at the corporate level that give PC corps something to invest their ISK in instead of handing out ISK to the members for them to burn on pub matches. Having to buy War barges and MCCGÇÖs in PC 2.0 might be the kind of thing that will suck more ISK out of PC corps.
ISK efficiency isnGÇÖt a stat in DUST. It should be THE stat in DUST. It should be posted in the EOM screen for all to see, and it should be the first stat listed in the leaderboards. The easiest way to reduce proto stomping is to publish to the community everyoneGÇÖs average ISK value of enemy assets destroyed - ISK value of your assets lost per match. The social pressure to have a good ISK efficiency will greatly disincentives running very expensive fits and will make high K/D numbers look stupid if paired with terrible efficiency. This would be trivial to program and would make a huge impact on player behavior.
Collectively these address the problems tiericide is attempting to address in a much better way and doesnGÇÖt sacrifice the GÇ£special sauceGÇ¥ of risk vs. ISK that makes DUST so awesome.
TL;DR: tiericide is f*cking stupid.
Best PvE idea ever!
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
2184
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Posted - 2014.04.28 20:50:00 -
[4] - Quote
Tiericide is one of those buzzwords that gets flown around a lot, I think without everyone realizing it's implications or what it means. I am unconvinced "tiericide" is the magical fix-all for the game. And emphasizing ISK efficiency would do wonders, as people can be competitively marked using any tier of gear, based on how well they use it.
I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate
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Viktor Hadah Jr
Critical-Impact
3673
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Posted - 2014.04.28 20:54:00 -
[5] - Quote
People are saying we should have tiericide like EVE does but then go about a whole different concept of tiericide.
The thing Dust wants for tiericide is nothing like the EVE tiericide.
Sir Hadah for CPM
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ZDub 303
TeamPlayers
Dirt Nap Squad.
2593
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Posted - 2014.04.28 21:04:00 -
[6] - Quote
Vell0cet wrote: Using higher meta modules will give you a MASSIVE advantage over someone with lower meta fits (in EVE the fits are often much more expensive than the hull).
Why can't it also be this way in Dust?
keep in mind that Eve does not cap the number of players in system while Dust does cap the number of players in a lobby match. Large disparity in power is driving new players away in droves. Its not healthy for the long term life of this game...
People advocating for dropsuit tiericide are just trying to lower the power differential some. There will always be players willing to pay for that 20% power differential. I'm not sure a 200% power differential should be attainable this early in the game... |
Cotsy
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
16
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Posted - 2014.04.28 21:10:00 -
[7] - Quote
Hey Vell,
I assume this is in response to Iron Sabre's opinion that tiericide is the solution, or that he was introducing what tiericide is to the general population in hopes of when its introduced to the game that the backlash will be minimal. Because CCP has used the concept in EVE the natural inclination to use it in Dust would be there, so Iron either sees it as a good option (it isnt) or is telling us how it is because CCP wants to bring it in and they need community support to do so.
Tiericide is not a solution, it shouldn't even be considered as an option, thats how bad the concept is. I
f you read what I wrote to iron sabre, you can see that tiericide clearly widens the gap that is it supposedly addressing (you do a great job showing how it would widen the gap).
There is only one solution to matchmaking, in game balance in matchmaking process, and that is a 2-fold solution based on a value of WP + SP, or say skill + advantages gained by skill points. Here is a quick summary:
0-4m SP: this is what we will call the extended academy. All std weapons, suits, classes will be available. There is NO ISK involved in spending, dying but ISK will be rewarded from matches allowing players to get a nice lump sum of ISK when leaving. No tanks or drop ships will be available here to be called in past the 1 of each which will be available at the start of the match, so players can get experience using them.
5-9m SP lets call this the Novice or Beginner Phase: players will be given the option to use militia vehicles in battle, players will be given a stat reset upon graduation which they can use only during this phase and may not use it after.
10-14m and 15-19m SP: intermediate, this will be the beginning of separating and introducing skill to determine who matchmaking is made. Players will be matched based on average WP + SP to create a player # which will be used by Scotty to determine your equally skilled opponents. Squads with more than 3, only the top 3 players scores will be used when making a balanced match.
The ceiling, which is an attribute of tiericide in Dust is around 25-26m SP, but diminishing returns begin around 22-23m SP whereby players going from lv4 to lv5 get marginal increase in stats. Again, players will be grouped upon skill number within the 20m+ SP range.
Tiercide is a joke, but balanced matchmaking is what the game requires. It fixes the NPE, it fixes many of the stomps, the skilled vs unskilled blowouts.. The only downside is that without a solid NPE the lower end of the tier wont have many options due to low # of players if the system is not fixes very shortly. |
Cotsy
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
16
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Posted - 2014.04.28 21:14:00 -
[8] - Quote
You have many many strong points, its a great read, very good opinion supported by strong arguments. I hope my suggestion of dividing based on SP and then SP + skill is a possible solution, as you have shown and I have previously argued, cap'ing gesr is a terrible terrible idea. It only extends the problem and does not address its core issues. |
ZDub 303
TeamPlayers
Dirt Nap Squad.
2594
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Posted - 2014.04.28 21:16:00 -
[9] - Quote
No matter how good or bad tiercide is as an option to improve NPE, I can guarantee SP matchmaking is an unimaginably worse idea.
This game does not have the players to support divided SP tiers, and it may never. A year from now those SP tiers would be largely irrelevant as well. |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14383
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Posted - 2014.04.28 21:19:00 -
[10] - Quote
Cotsy wrote:You have many many strong points, its a great read, very good opinion supported by strong arguments. I hope my suggestion of dividing based on SP and then SP + skill is a possible solution, as you have shown and I have previously argued, cap'ing gesr is a terrible terrible idea. It only extends the problem and does not address its core issues.
So how's gear with 0 sp permanency any better? This quickly adds into 0 Sp permanency into fits and to an extent the soldier ultimately.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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Delta 749
Kestrel Reconnaissance
2850
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Posted - 2014.04.28 21:22:00 -
[11] - Quote
So you support pay to win then right?
I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world.
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Godin Thekiller
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2093
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Posted - 2014.04.28 21:25:00 -
[12] - Quote
1: tech levels aren't the same as tiers. and by saying what you just said, you made the tier system sound even worse; we have both the tech levels, which gets better as you go up, and then there is tiers, which gets better as you go up, so a PROTO tech 2 (say a Assault), is much more superior than a STD medium. This just closes the gap. Also, although it is true that for the same role, a tech 2 is better than a tech 1, that doesn't mean that it's overall better.
2: Your solutions for thing could just as easily go a opposite way and be actually good. For instance, your idea with AUR things. look at League of Legends. You can buy the same legend with a different skins. People Do that. A lot. All CCP has to do is make a lot of neat skins, or even sell us the ability to make our own skins, which they could turn into BPO's. Speaking of BPO's, all they would have to do is turn the BPO's into whatever the original item was equivalent (say the Dragonfly Scout G-I into the Dragonfly Scout G-whatever), and then turn it into a EVE style BPO, where we would just buy the materials off the market, put it into a production line, and make the items.
3: Although you're right about the last two points, they don't cover the full effect of why a lot of people, including most if not all of the current CPM doesn't like it. I can't speak for everyone, but I'll explain why both of those are not completely right:
For the NPE one, you discuss PROTO stomping. PROTO stomping doesn't have to be just against noobs. say one guy doesn't feel like using PROTO gear or is saving up because he doesn't have a ISK farm. Then comes the douche who only runs PROTO gear. They face off, and even though the guy in the STD gear might be better, he lost due to the worse gear. That is not fair, and shouldn't happen. Under a tiercide dust, the guy might have won.
For the economy one, as I said, the ISK farm people won't give a single ****. They got ISK to burn, so losing a truck load or two in a match doesn't matter to them, as they know they will never run out.
click me
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Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz
Dirt Nap Squad.
840
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Posted - 2014.04.28 21:25:00 -
[13] - Quote
Just read a small portion for now, but I assure you I will keep this up and get to the rest when I can. It looks to be a very good write up so far!
+3 fella
Tanks - Balancing Turrets
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Auris Lionesse
Kang Lo Directorate
Gallente Federation
761
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Posted - 2014.04.28 21:48:00 -
[14] - Quote
Tl:dr = Op has no idea what he's talking about.
assaults and logis are specialized roles making them tech 2.
The only valid argument against tiericide is we don't have enough suits to make it worth it.
Eve has 6 frigates, 2 destroyers, 4 cruisers, 3 battle cruisers and 3 battleships that are just "tech one"
Excluding capitals and industrials and tech two and factional etc etc that's 18 ships so 72 ships among 4 races before you count all the others. Making eve at least 6x times more diverse than dust.
it's actually much greater but you get the point.
Dust has 3 per race, making 12 among the 4 races. This is why our variety is so lacking. We have no suits, our only "variety" comes from the ineffective tiers and palette swaps. Standard and advanced tiers suck and every complains about proto being to strong. we should have 4-5 different suits per category. With a specialized tech 2 version of each. Meaning 12-15 unique skins and 24-30 suits per race FOR STARTERS.
Tiericide is getting rid of the three suit tiers and making all suits good instead of having useless standard-advanced tiers.
Even with this solely valid argument against tiericide we still need it.
Gallente Heavy Ninja Turtles! Gallente Heavy Ninja Turtles!
Heroes in a half Gank!
TURTLE POWER!!!
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Autoaim Bot514
The Hetairoi
93
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Posted - 2014.04.28 21:48:00 -
[15] - Quote
1. You'll still risk ISK through the cost of mods, weapons etc.
2. BPO's can be converted into free, but not as good versions of gear, such as current ADV stat militia gear under what I've proposed.
3. There would still be tiers for weapons and modules, as it is in eve. The only things that need to get tiericide are suits.
4. Power divide, or grind divide, you decide.
5. Tiericide may not fix every issue in the game, including NPE, but it would be a good start. |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14385
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Posted - 2014.04.28 21:49:00 -
[16] - Quote
Auris Lionesse wrote:Tl:dr
Op has no idea what he's talking about.
assaults and logis are specialized roles making them tech 2.
The only valid argument against tiericide is we don't have enough suits to make it worth it.
Eve has 6 frigates, 2 destroyers, 4 cruisers, 3 battle cruisers and 3 battleships that are just "tech one"
Excluding capitals and industrials and tech two/tech3 factional etc etc that's 18 ships so 72 ships among 4 races before you count all the others. Making eve at least 6x times more diverse than dust.
it's actually much greater but you get the point.
Dust has 3 per race, making 12 among the 4 races. This is why our variety is so lacking. We have no suits, our only "variety" comes from the ineffective tiers and palette swaps. Standard and advanced tiers suck and every complains about proto being to strong. we should have 4-5 different suits per category. With a specialized tech 2 version of each. Meaning 12-15 unique skins and 24-30 suits per race FOR STARTERS.
Tiericide is getting rid of the three suit tiers and making all suits good instead of having useless standard-advanced tiers.
cept if you look them up they're tech 1...
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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Godin Thekiller
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2093
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Posted - 2014.04.28 21:51:00 -
[17] - Quote
Auris Lionesse wrote:Tl:dr
Op has no idea what he's talking about.
assaults and logis are specialized roles making them tech 2.
The only valid argument against tiericide is we don't have enough suits to make it worth it.
Eve has 6 frigates, 2 destroyers, 4 cruisers, 3 battle cruisers and 3 battleships that are just "tech one"
Excluding capitals and industrials and tech two/tech3 factional etc etc that's 18 ships so 72 ships among 4 races before you count all the others. Making eve at least 6x times more diverse than dust.
it's actually much greater but you get the point.
Dust has 3 per race, making 12 among the 4 races. This is why our variety is so lacking. We have no suits, our only "variety" comes from the ineffective tiers and palette swaps. Standard and advanced tiers suck and every complains about proto being to strong. we should have 4-5 different suits per category. With a specialized tech 2 version of each. Meaning 12-15 unique skins and 24-30 suits per race FOR STARTERS.
Tiericide is getting rid of the three suit tiers and making all suits good instead of having useless standard-advanced tiers.
EVE has lots more due to having more than just combat.....
click me
Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
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Auris Lionesse
Kang Lo Directorate
Gallente Federation
761
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Posted - 2014.04.28 21:57:00 -
[18] - Quote
Godin Thekiller wrote:Auris Lionesse wrote:Tl:dr
Op has no idea what he's talking about.
assaults and logis are specialized roles making them tech 2.
The only valid argument against tiericide is we don't have enough suits to make it worth it.
Eve has 6 frigates, 2 destroyers, 4 cruisers, 3 battle cruisers and 3 battleships that are just "tech one"
Excluding capitals and industrials and tech two/tech3 factional etc etc that's 18 ships so 72 ships among 4 races before you count all the others. Making eve at least 6x times more diverse than dust.
it's actually much greater but you get the point.
Dust has 3 per race, making 12 among the 4 races. This is why our variety is so lacking. We have no suits, our only "variety" comes from the ineffective tiers and palette swaps. Standard and advanced tiers suck and every complains about proto being to strong. we should have 4-5 different suits per category. With a specialized tech 2 version of each. Meaning 12-15 unique skins and 24-30 suits per race FOR STARTERS.
Tiericide is getting rid of the three suit tiers and making all suits good instead of having useless standard-advanced tiers. EVE has lots more due to having more than just combat.....
I only counted combat ships in the 72 and I even excluded titans carriers dreadnoughts and motherships.
Gallente Heavy Ninja Turtles! Gallente Heavy Ninja Turtles!
Heroes in a half Gank!
TURTLE POWER!!!
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Godin Thekiller
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2094
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Posted - 2014.04.28 21:59:00 -
[19] - Quote
Auris Lionesse wrote:Godin Thekiller wrote:Auris Lionesse wrote:Tl:dr
Op has no idea what he's talking about.
assaults and logis are specialized roles making them tech 2.
The only valid argument against tiericide is we don't have enough suits to make it worth it.
Eve has 6 frigates, 2 destroyers, 4 cruisers, 3 battle cruisers and 3 battleships that are just "tech one"
Excluding capitals and industrials and tech two/tech3 factional etc etc that's 18 ships so 72 ships among 4 races before you count all the others. Making eve at least 6x times more diverse than dust.
it's actually much greater but you get the point.
Dust has 3 per race, making 12 among the 4 races. This is why our variety is so lacking. We have no suits, our only "variety" comes from the ineffective tiers and palette swaps. Standard and advanced tiers suck and every complains about proto being to strong. we should have 4-5 different suits per category. With a specialized tech 2 version of each. Meaning 12-15 unique skins and 24-30 suits per race FOR STARTERS.
Tiericide is getting rid of the three suit tiers and making all suits good instead of having useless standard-advanced tiers. EVE has lots more due to having more than just combat..... I only counted combat ships in the 72 and I even excluded titans carriers dreadnoughts and motherships.
Ah. I never myself counted how many ships there was. You're probably right thinking about it.
click me
Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
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Autoaim Bot514
The Hetairoi
93
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Posted - 2014.04.28 22:00:00 -
[20] - Quote
Auris Lionesse wrote:Godin Thekiller wrote:Auris Lionesse wrote:Tl:dr
Op has no idea what he's talking about.
assaults and logis are specialized roles making them tech 2.
The only valid argument against tiericide is we don't have enough suits to make it worth it.
Eve has 6 frigates, 2 destroyers, 4 cruisers, 3 battle cruisers and 3 battleships that are just "tech one"
Excluding capitals and industrials and tech two/tech3 factional etc etc that's 18 ships so 72 ships among 4 races before you count all the others. Making eve at least 6x times more diverse than dust.
it's actually much greater but you get the point.
Dust has 3 per race, making 12 among the 4 races. This is why our variety is so lacking. We have no suits, our only "variety" comes from the ineffective tiers and palette swaps. Standard and advanced tiers suck and every complains about proto being to strong. we should have 4-5 different suits per category. With a specialized tech 2 version of each. Meaning 12-15 unique skins and 24-30 suits per race FOR STARTERS.
Tiericide is getting rid of the three suit tiers and making all suits good instead of having useless standard-advanced tiers. EVE has lots more due to having more than just combat..... I only counted combat ships in the 72 and I even excluded titans carriers dreadnoughts and motherships.
Not having to create 3 suits for each role would free CCP up to introduce more roles for new suits. |
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Auris Lionesse
Kang Lo Directorate
Gallente Federation
761
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Posted - 2014.04.28 22:00:00 -
[21] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Auris Lionesse wrote:Tl:dr
Op has no idea what he's talking about.
assaults and logis are specialized roles making them tech 2.
The only valid argument against tiericide is we don't have enough suits to make it worth it.
Eve has 6 frigates, 2 destroyers, 4 cruisers, 3 battle cruisers and 3 battleships that are just "tech one"
Excluding capitals and industrials and tech two/tech3 factional etc etc that's 18 ships so 72 ships among 4 races before you count all the others. Making eve at least 6x times more diverse than dust.
it's actually much greater but you get the point.
Dust has 3 per race, making 12 among the 4 races. This is why our variety is so lacking. We have no suits, our only "variety" comes from the ineffective tiers and palette swaps. Standard and advanced tiers suck and every complains about proto being to strong. we should have 4-5 different suits per category. With a specialized tech 2 version of each. Meaning 12-15 unique skins and 24-30 suits per race FOR STARTERS.
Tiericide is getting rid of the three suit tiers and making all suits good instead of having useless standard-advanced tiers. cept if you look them up they're tech 1...
Is a heavy assault cruiser tech 1 or tech 2?
Gallente Heavy Ninja Turtles! Gallente Heavy Ninja Turtles!
Heroes in a half Gank!
TURTLE POWER!!!
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Cotsy
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
16
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Posted - 2014.04.28 22:04:00 -
[22] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Cotsy wrote:You have many many strong points, its a great read, very good opinion supported by strong arguments. I hope my suggestion of dividing based on SP and then SP + skill is a possible solution, as you have shown and I have previously argued, cap'ing gesr is a terrible terrible idea. It only extends the problem and does not address its core issues. So how's gear with 0 sp permanency any better? This quickly adds into 0 Sp permanency into fits and to an extent the soldier ultimately.
How is 0 SP gear any better? Not sure if you mean how I made my 0-4m SP battle academy or not.
A: There is no 0 SP, SP is gained passively therefore a player is never at 0 SP, he starts off at 400,000k and he is able to gain SP + ISK via battle academy until he reaches the next level. SP is only a factor until a player reaches 9m SP and then after he is sorted by skill level, but within the frameworks of SP. If you are referring to my idea that all std gear should be available in the battle academy, that idea is based on showing players the games variety and giving them experience playing with all weapons, gear, suits so they know what they like the best and can skill into it afterwards. Limiting players and punishing their choice to try out weapons by making them pay for it via AUR or wasting SP isn't helping the NPE. People want to try everything, see what they like, see what the game has to offer and then once they leave the Academy will have a goal in which to work for.
If you are referring to gear you can get with 0 SP invested, that should be the militia gear? I'm sort of confused I think you mean BPO's but you would have said BPO's or militia gear.
A: BPO gear cost 0 ISK and can have an impact on the ISK aspect, either by offering lower payouts in battle or by offering advantages to players??! Is that what you are saying I hardly think BPO's have an impact so great they need to be addressed, passed adding in their intended value in the layout system (if you wanted to). Some BPO's allow 0 SP to be invested, some allow low levels of SP to get decent gear, but BPO's nor cheap gear usage should be a concern. So gear with 0 asap, like crappy BPO's arent any better, they out you at a disadvantage cause those holding them of course are from open or closed beta and you match up vs better gear in match, so skill determines your opponents.
Maybe you mean this:
If you are referring to my point previously, whereby I said even if players are using the same gear the player who has Higher SP invested and received boosts to mods and suit.. So a tiericide system does not work because it immediately does the thing you are trying to prevent by limiting gear etc, it provides an advantage to the gear you are limiting.
I am not really sure the point you are trying to make, 0 SP would not be added into anything. The level of weapon, or suit or anything you decide to invest i to doesn't affect my tier system, it only affects ThE EVE to dust concept. Those who cannot afford things due to SP are placed within the same system of the tier, so others will be facing similar challenges. If you referring to how BPO's affect the tier, well most people with BPO's are 20m+ and their PBO's are going to hold up to advanced gear very well.
If you can clarify I would be happy to explain what you mean in more detail. |
P14GU3
The Southern Legion
Final Resolution.
624
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Posted - 2014.04.28 22:12:00 -
[23] - Quote
I had a discussion early today with a guy (alt, he didnt say his main, and i didnt ask.)
He was largely advocating for teircide. It was funny tho, he had no clue what teircide even meant. He kept talking about having mlt/basic only, adv only, proto only, and unresricted game modes, because it would be fair, and give people a chance to choose to be stomped or not.
I meantioned an academy extension and he flipped his lid about how it wouldn't help because you would still have 5m SP players with newberries. He was insistant that proto was the issue. I didnt bring it up to him, but i remembered some events back in beta where we could battle against people playing dust at gaming conventions.
They (the conventioners) were given full proto suits in an infinate supply and max skills in everything. Most of us dust players were in basic, adv with a proto weapon at best. These battles ended up having ridiculous wait times. Some people never even got to participate because they were filling up so fast. Why? Because these matches were cake. Free isk basically, because the players at the convention were horrible, even with maxed toons in proto gear. Im not saying proto doesnt give an advantage, but it really isnt as big of a factor as most people believe. Map knowledge, tactics, coordinated play, gungame all play a role.
Yeah, i run an Amarr logi with a mass driver.. what are YOU going to do about it?
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Cotsy
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
16
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Posted - 2014.04.28 22:14:00 -
[24] - Quote
Delta 749 wrote:So you support pay to win then right?
A little open ended here, but the idea of AUR being purchased would greatly help CCP. The idea of a matchmaking tier system as I have described it would be based on SP at low levels and SP + skill at higher levels.
If one is able to get AUR gear at a lower level, it would provide a marginal advantage over his fellow beginners, or battle academy members. CCP is not a pay to win, because everyone can purchase the same gear either via AUR or time/playing the game. Having a tier system like I suggested would be a greater benefit to CCP money wise but would only give players a marginal advantage and for a very very short time. AUR would also allow players in the second bracket to use all the gear they used in Academy, which would encourage players to spend more money, and doesn't provide any advantage.
AUR provides very small advantages in the early process, and frankly, none at later tiers.
The game is far from pay to win, it's more of the EVE model whereby the longer you're account has been active the more likely you are given the advantage. This doesn't always hold true because boosters, and time played, but it's not too far off the EVE model. |
Vitharr Foebane
Living Like Larry Schwag
1064
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Posted - 2014.04.28 22:15:00 -
[25] - Quote
Honestly, even if we get teiricide. even if a fresh outta academy newberry gets the same slots as a vet? will he have skills necessary to run the suit as well as a vet? The simple answer is no he will have neither the suit bonuses of the Vet nor the core skills to run the same gear as the vet. The vet will still win most of the time due to their greater SP investment unless the newberry gets the drop on them. I'm rather neutral on the topic of tiericide though. This is merely food for thought
Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics III
I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
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Soldner VonKuechle
SAM-MIK
General Tso's Alliance
638
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Posted - 2014.04.28 22:17:00 -
[26] - Quote
Solid argument vell, but there are some issues with it.
Tech(nology) levels are NOT equal to tiers. They are significant increases is power obtained by further SP sinking is hyper specialized roles, something which DUSTs structure is still lacking.
Using your example the Omen is a high damage tech level 1 ship that gets moderate bonusii for filling an attack role
The Zealot, its technology 2 upgrade, gets even further advanced damage outputs with speed boost bonusii attached to it, while the hull itself stat up grades via hp, fitting and damage resistance bonusii
The Legion, the super advanced tech 3 version is a ship that can be damn near anything so meh, doesnt fit in the linear example.
the tiers of EVE did give each tech 1 ship a distinct advantage at higher operating levels.
In the case of the Caldari Battlecruisers, the Ferox was a tier 1 ship with terrible fitting, low weapon count and rather uninspired module layout, while the tier 2 ship, the Drake, was by far the better choice with tanking ability being superb, a higher count of weapons available and enough fitting space to fit a ship fully with fitting intensive technology 2 modules with low fitting SP. the tier 3 Naga when it got introduced, shortly before tiericide, was just jesus-mode, battleship grade weapons, slot layouts for jesus tanking, speed of near a frigate. tiericide happened and viola, each got its own role and are now widely used.
the risk vs isk aspect is pretty much correct, and with tiericide AND the introduction of more content (suits, tech levels, basic non redarded structure) it would skew in the direction you want it to, because people wont want to run tech2 assaults because shts expensive vs basic assaults which are moderately good and fairly priced (sorry i m outa of coffee, i might be jumping between present dust and hypothetical dust alot)
BPOS are a sticky icky thing, and in Hypo-dust they could be strangly overpowered yes. if their is no industry introduced. The only way to not break the future of this game with BPOs is to have some sort of industry introduced. the dilution factor you talked about is true if nothing happens.
Aur gear. player market could destroy it because faction gear. OOOOrrrrrr player market could totally boost the sales because some peolpe might be short on time and use aur to get things and sell it to peeps with tons of isk and want to try new things. this ones a grab bag no matter what happens
Now the power divide would still be there in hypo-dust, and it most likely will be as great because of tech2 things, but its the 'little guy' has a chance because the tech1 gear is standardized. ill explain this more with an example in a bit.
NPE does suck, for a lot of reasons, stomping is one, lets continue. I do like your ideas here though
The economy of dust is crap, i agree. But hypo-dust has an industry and scarcity of resources to create a fully functioning free economy, where the higher powered gear sells for more but consumes more resrouces to make, blah blah blah, tis goes back to the risk vs isk section which youre pretty much right on target for the general idea.
Okay, hypo-dust example, ill use the caldari medium since its pretty much the most readily used one.
currently it goes basic std-basic adv(can pick discipline here) basic proto into assault std-adv-proto and logi std-adv-proto
with no bonusii being apllied to basics and (currently lackluster) bonusii being applied to specialized suits.
now, for tiericide TO WORK, there NEEDS to be MORE CONTENT. tech levels are huge in this, i think you and i can both agree. Hypo dusts tree would look something like this
Skill: Caldari basic medium frames
Suits: -Combat *5% weapon fitting reduction and 5% reload speed rail weapons per level
-Logistics *5% equip fitting reduction and 5% nantie supply/rate/health of nano hives per level
-Vehicle Supression 5%reduction to swarm lock on time and 5% swarm range per level
-EWAR 5% weapon lockout time and 5% weapon lockout range per level
All of these suits would be available with Caldari Basic Medium Frames skilled to level 1, with bonuses at a perlevel basis it would encourage the use of leveling it all the way to 5
Then at this point, tech 2 vairants can be skilled and unlocked
Skill: Caldari Assault
Suit: -Spectre *5% weapon fitting reduction 5%reload speed per level of cadari basic medium frames
1% incoming damage reduction and 1% movement speed per level of caldari assault
-Linemen *5% weapong fitting reduction, 5% reload speed per level of caldari basic medium frames
*5%shield ext-efficacy and 2% rate of fire hybrid-rails per level
Skill: Caldari Logistics
Suit: Field Technician 5% equip fitting and 5% nanite supply/rate/health per level
5% rate of remote shield booster and 1% transfer range per level.
so on and so forth.
You make a very solid argument Vell, but there is room for both sides of the entire tiericide arguement, mainly because its a huge huge undertaking that requires massive amounts of resources to make sure it gets done right.
Which knowing ccp, wont happen and we'll get an even further broken game.
ps, sorry for the abrupt stop, i ve run out of time to finish what i was doing.
TLDR; tiericide can ONLY work if MORE SCHTUFF is ADDED to the game.
The forums are more reliable than my spais :(
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Shion Typhon
Intara Direct Action
Caldari State
512
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Posted - 2014.04.28 22:19:00 -
[27] - Quote
Godin Thekiller wrote:
2: Your solutions for thing could just as easily go a opposite way and be actually good. For instance, your idea with AUR things. look at League of Legends. You can buy the same legend with a different skins. People Do that. A lot. All CCP has to do is make a lot of neat skins, or even sell us the ability to make our own skins, which they could turn into BPO's. Speaking of BPO's, all they would have to do is turn the BPO's into whatever the original item was equivalent (say the Dragonfly Scout G-I into the Dragonfly Scout G-whatever), and then turn it into a EVE style BPO, where we would just buy the materials off the market, put it into a production line, and make the items.
So true, there are plenty of examples of huge F2P markets in games were purchaseable items are restricted to skins and toy items only. This is a proven market, people WILL spend for this stuff. |
ZDub 303
TeamPlayers
Dirt Nap Squad.
2598
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Posted - 2014.04.28 22:19:00 -
[28] - Quote
Vitharr Foebane wrote:Honestly, even if we get teiricide. even if a fresh outta academy newberry gets the same slots as a vet? will he have skills necessary to run the suit as well as a vet? The simple answer is no he will have neither the suit bonuses of the Vet nor the core skills to run the same gear as the vet. The vet will still win most of the time due to their greater SP investment unless the newberry gets the drop on them. I'm rather neutral on the topic of tiericide though. This is merely food for thought
The RPG progression is still maintained, which is a core aspect of Dust. You must admit though, the power differential is dramatically reduced.
With a fix to shield extenders, even a 2m SP newberry can get within 20% of the 40m+ SP bittervet. That's acceptable imo, better than the vet having 300% the HP and ~30% more damage. |
Soldner VonKuechle
SAM-MIK
General Tso's Alliance
638
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Posted - 2014.04.28 22:27:00 -
[29] - Quote
Crap forgot to talk about slot layout and role bonusii.
Will edit when I get back to my computer.
The forums are more reliable than my spais :(
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Delanus Turgias
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
456
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Posted - 2014.04.28 22:29:00 -
[30] - Quote
Good points all around. The rabble in the comments seem to be throwing wild assumptions around like they're facts, but ignore most of them. We need to stop thinking of only tiericide, locking us to one solution and one, final solution only (Read: IWS Stahp FFS) limits creative ideas and discussion and leads us into a never-ending death-spiral of why/why nots for only one idea, instead of coming up with new, unique solutions and discussing the merits of those.
But don't go asking me for ideas how to solve the problem, I personally don't believe there is a problem (I know I'm gonna get flak for that), but I'd like to see what all those bright minds lurking in the community can come up with.
Closed Beta Vet since May 2012
The Laser Rifle- Reach Out And Burn Slaves
Proud owner of essentially every BPO in Dust
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Rusty Shallows
Caldari State
1701
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Posted - 2014.04.28 22:34:00 -
[31] - Quote
Vell0cet wrote:snip
TL;DR: tiericide is f*cking stupid.
Most of your post reads like a PAC attack AD. I live in a battleground State so these are pretty easy to spot.
Forums > Game: So here is a cookie and a Like. Please keep posting.
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
9852
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Posted - 2014.04.28 22:42:00 -
[32] - Quote
Rusty Shallows wrote:Vell0cet wrote:snip
TL;DR: tiericide is f*cking stupid. Most of your post reads like a PAC attack AD. I live in a battleground State so these are pretty easy to spot.
Still Tiericide will not work for Dust as it did for EVE, it will either bring some strong benefits or ruin variation and invalidate SP like it does for tank modules.
"Get thine Swag out of my face! Next you'll be writing #YOLOswagforJamyl in all your posts!"
-Dagger Two
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Auris Lionesse
Kang Lo Directorate
Gallente Federation
763
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Posted - 2014.04.28 22:48:00 -
[33] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Rusty Shallows wrote:Vell0cet wrote:snip
TL;DR: tiericide is f*cking stupid. Most of your post reads like a PAC attack AD. I live in a battleground State so these are pretty easy to spot. Still Tiericide will not work for Dust as it did for EVE, it will either bring some strong benefits or ruin variation and invalidate SP like it does for tank modules.
Tanks weren't teiricided.
Ccp just broke them and said eh will fix it later.
Gallente Heavy Ninja Turtles! Gallente Heavy Ninja Turtles!
Heroes in a half Gank!
TURTLE POWER!!!
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Teilka Darkmist
302
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Posted - 2014.04.28 22:50:00 -
[34] - Quote
Auris Lionesse wrote:Tl:dr = Op has no idea what he's talking about.
assaults and logis are specialized roles making them tech 2.
The only valid argument against tiericide is we don't have enough suits to make it worth it.
Eve has 6 frigates, 2 destroyers, 4 cruisers, 3 battle cruisers and 3 battleships that are just "tech one"
Excluding capitals and industrials and tech two and factional etc etc that's 18 ships so 72 ships among 4 races before you count all the others. Making eve at least 6x times more diverse than dust.
it's actually much greater but you get the point.
Dust has 3 per race, making 12 among the 4 races. This is why our variety is so lacking. We have no suits, our only "variety" comes from the ineffective tiers and palette swaps. Standard and advanced tiers suck and every complains about proto being to strong. we should have 4-5 different suits per category. With a specialized tech 2 version of each. Meaning 12-15 unique skins and 24-30 suits per race FOR STARTERS.
Tiericide is getting rid of the three suit tiers and making all suits good instead of having useless standard-advanced tiers.
Even with this solely valid argument against tiericide we still need it.
You're both right and wrong here.
Right because tiericide is about specialising the higher ranked suits, making them better than the lower ranked ones at specific roles, like Logi, scout, assault, heavy.
Wrong in your comparison to the ship classes in EVE. Dropsuits aren't the equivalent of all the ship classes in EVE, they're the equivalent of just one of the classes. So standard suits would be the equivalent of T1, low bonuses to give light, medium and heavy suits a bit of a role bonus, but make them still usable for any role. Advanced would be the equivalent of T2, better bonuses in more specific fields, so you start to properly see Logi, Scout, Heavy Weapons and Assault, maybe adding something like a Combat engineer at some point in the future, but at this level they start to also get less effective in other roles. And Proto would be T3, where suits are the best they can be at one task, maybe bonused for one type of weapon or equipment, but they're at a serious disadvantage if you fit them for other roles.
Each race would have it's own specialisations in each role by what types of modules they're bonused for. Amarr assaults would have bonuses to laser rifles and Caldari assaults bonussed for Rail rifles , for example. That way to get the most out of the game, you would not only put SP into whatever specialisation you wanted to play, but you'd also go into other races to give you more weapons variation or into other roles for greater tactical flexibility on the battlefield.
This is exactly how it works in EVE, you don't fit lasers onto a Minmatar Logi ship, like the Scythe, because there is a better ship for them, in the form of the Ammaran Maller or Omen.
The suits would also get slot layouts and bonusses for either shield or armour tanking, making it much rarer to find someone who has set up a dual tanked dropsuit with three or four times the base eHP.
I don't really understand why the dropsuits weren't set up this way in the first place or why CCP didn't foresee the protostomping problem with how the suits are set up at the moment.
There would, of course, be a period of adjustment whilst players got used to the new system, but once that period was over, Dust would be a more balanced game where new players wouldn't automatically be stomped because they don't run all proto gear and skill and tactical squad composition would become an important factor.
Or that's what I think anyway.
Woman.
Sniper, but from near the opponent's redline more often than not.
Not a KDR Worshipper.
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Soldner VonKuechle
SAM-MIK
General Tso's Alliance
639
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Posted - 2014.04.28 22:50:00 -
[35] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Rusty Shallows wrote:Vell0cet wrote:snip
TL;DR: tiericide is f*cking stupid. Most of your post reads like a PAC attack AD. I live in a battleground State so these are pretty easy to spot. Still Tiericide will not work for Dust as it did for EVE, it will either bring some strong benefits or ruin variation and invalidate SP like it does for tank modules.
TLDR; tiericide can ONLY work if MORE SCHTUFF is ADDED to the game.-á
The forums are more reliable than my spais :(
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
9852
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Posted - 2014.04.28 22:54:00 -
[36] - Quote
Soldner VonKuechle wrote:True Adamance wrote:Rusty Shallows wrote:Vell0cet wrote:snip
TL;DR: tiericide is f*cking stupid. Most of your post reads like a PAC attack AD. I live in a battleground State so these are pretty easy to spot. Still Tiericide will not work for Dust as it did for EVE, it will either bring some strong benefits or ruin variation and invalidate SP like it does for tank modules. TLDR; tiericide can ONLY work if MORE SCHTUFF is ADDED to the game.-á
Even then that is debatable.
There are tiers in EVE, they mean that a T2 will always be better than a T1 at its give role, that T2 guns will always out damage T1 Guns, that T2 modules will always be more efficient than T1 Modules...... its a fundamental truth that the more ISK you invest, the more efficiency you get......and thats half of what New Eden is.......
"Get thine Swag out of my face! Next you'll be writing #YOLOswagforJamyl in all your posts!"
-Dagger Two
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Teilka Darkmist
302
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Posted - 2014.04.28 22:56:00 -
[37] - Quote
Soldner VonKuechle wrote:True Adamance wrote:Rusty Shallows wrote:Vell0cet wrote:snip
TL;DR: tiericide is f*cking stupid. Most of your post reads like a PAC attack AD. I live in a battleground State so these are pretty easy to spot. Still Tiericide will not work for Dust as it did for EVE, it will either bring some strong benefits or ruin variation and invalidate SP like it does for tank modules. TLDR; tiericide can ONLY work if MORE SCHTUFF is ADDED to the game.-á
Wrong, as I detail above. But it does allow for more to be added to the game in the future without seriously unbalancing everything.
Woman.
Sniper, but from near the opponent's redline more often than not.
Not a KDR Worshipper.
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Rusty Shallows
Caldari State
1702
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Posted - 2014.04.28 22:56:00 -
[38] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Rusty Shallows wrote:Vell0cet wrote:snip
TL;DR: tiericide is f*cking stupid. Most of your post reads like a PAC attack AD. I live in a battleground State so these are pretty easy to spot. Still Tiericide will not work for Dust as it did for EVE, it will either bring some strong benefits or ruin variation and invalidate SP like it does for tank modules.
Agreed that it would ruin modules. It could work for reorganizing weapon sub-variants by skill level rather than having so many teirs. Where it can shine is holding back power creep on Frames and Vehicles. Both of those are areas we'e had (or are having) trouble with.
Forums > Game: So here is a cookie and a Like. Please keep posting.
Bwahahahahahahahahahaha! >>> GòÜ(GÇóGîéGÇó)Gò¥ >>>
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Omega Black Zero
Condotta Rouvenor
Gallente Federation
40
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Posted - 2014.04.28 22:58:00 -
[39] - Quote
A DNS member QQ'ing because they might lose a definite edge? If you're skilled, you shouldn't have anything to worry about. Perhaps your skill is fading because you depend on your gear so much? Or just can't stand the thought of being destroyed by "peasants" because you're on more equal ground? |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14389
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Posted - 2014.04.28 23:03:00 -
[40] - Quote
Remembers the days of dust 514 when we didn't have tiers... of course many other things were broken back then.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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ZDub 303
TeamPlayers
Dirt Nap Squad.
2598
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Posted - 2014.04.28 23:04:00 -
[41] - Quote
Rusty Shallows wrote:True Adamance wrote:Rusty Shallows wrote:Vell0cet wrote:snip
TL;DR: tiericide is f*cking stupid. Most of your post reads like a PAC attack AD. I live in a battleground State so these are pretty easy to spot. Still Tiericide will not work for Dust as it did for EVE, it will either bring some strong benefits or ruin variation and invalidate SP like it does for tank modules. Agreed that it would ruin modules. It could work for reorganizing weapon sub-variants by skill level rather than having so many teirs. Where it can shine is holding back power creep on Frames and Vehicles. Both of those are areas we'e had (or are having) trouble with.
Exactly. The purpose behind tiercide is that modules should be balanced around their fitting cost, its power to fit ratio that matters as PG and CPU will eventually limit the total amount of power per fit.
Dropsuit frames however are just a straight isk to power conversion. In theory it made sense, but in practice it doesn't work and just leads to what we affectionately call protostomping. I'll admit that I do it and i'm not ashamed of it, if you offer me that level of power I am going to exploit it, its just my min-max nature. Its not healthy for the long term success of the game though.
Another option would be pseudo-tiericide, where std and adv dropsuits have the same number of slots but less PG and CPU. You lessen the power differential without removing it entirely.
In the end, the std suit to pro suit power differential is substantial. Any veteran player who goes into PC with a std fit would not stand a chance... period. No amount of skill can overcome itl.
People are just exploring different ways to lessen that power differential between dropsuit tiers, we all can see its killing the game. |
TunRa
Fatal Absolution
Dirt Nap Squad.
587
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Posted - 2014.04.28 23:08:00 -
[42] - Quote
Delta 749 wrote:So you support pay to win then right?
Pay to win? How is it pay to win?
Thanks CCP Foxfour
MAG vet: SVER
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Auris Lionesse
Kang Lo Directorate
Gallente Federation
767
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Posted - 2014.04.28 23:11:00 -
[43] - Quote
Teilka Darkmist wrote:Auris Lionesse wrote:Tl:dr = Op has no idea what he's talking about.
assaults and logis are specialized roles making them tech 2.
The only valid argument against tiericide is we don't have enough suits to make it worth it.
Eve has 6 frigates, 2 destroyers, 4 cruisers, 3 battle cruisers and 3 battleships that are just "tech one"
Excluding capitals and industrials and tech two and factional etc etc that's 18 ships so 72 ships among 4 races before you count all the others. Making eve at least 6x times more diverse than dust.
it's actually much greater but you get the point.
Dust has 3 per race, making 12 among the 4 races. This is why our variety is so lacking. We have no suits, our only "variety" comes from the ineffective tiers and palette swaps. Standard and advanced tiers suck and every complains about proto being to strong. we should have 4-5 different suits per category. With a specialized tech 2 version of each. Meaning 12-15 unique skins and 24-30 suits per race FOR STARTERS.
Tiericide is getting rid of the three suit tiers and making all suits good instead of having useless standard-advanced tiers.
Even with this solely valid argument against tiericide we still need it. You're both right and wrong here. Right because tiericide is about specialising the higher ranked suits, making them better than the lower ranked ones at specific roles, like Logi, scout, assault, heavy. Wrong in your comparison to the ship classes in EVE. Dropsuits aren't the equivalent of all the ship classes in EVE, they're the equivalent of just one of the classes. So standard suits would be the equivalent of T1, low bonuses to give light, medium and heavy suits a bit of a role bonus, but make them still usable for any role. Advanced would be the equivalent of T2, better bonuses in more specific fields, so you start to properly see Logi, Scout, Heavy Weapons and Assault, maybe adding something like a Combat engineer at some point in the future, but at this level they start to also get less effective in other roles. And Proto would be T3, where suits are the best they can be at one task, maybe bonused for one type of weapon or equipment, but they're at a serious disadvantage if you fit them for other roles. Each race would have it's own specialisations in each role by what types of modules they're bonused for. Amarr assaults would have bonuses to laser rifles and Caldari assaults bonussed for Rail rifles , for example. That way to get the most out of the game, you would not only put SP into whatever specialisation you wanted to play, but you'd also go into other races to give you more weapons variation or into other roles for greater tactical flexibility on the battlefield. This is exactly how it works in EVE, you don't fit lasers onto a Minmatar Logi ship, like the Scythe, because there is a better ship for them, in the form of the Ammaran Maller or Omen. The suits would also get slot layouts and bonusses for either shield or armour tanking, making it much rarer to find someone who has set up a dual tanked dropsuit with three or four times the base eHP. I don't really understand why the dropsuits weren't set up this way in the first place or why CCP didn't foresee the protostomping problem with how the suits are set up at the moment. There would, of course, be a period of adjustment whilst players got used to the new system, but once that period was over, Dust would be a more balanced game where new players wouldn't automatically be stomped because they don't run all proto gear and skill and tactical squad composition would become an important factor. Or that's what I think anyway.
No tech 1 is basic frames.
Tech 2 is specialized roles
And tech 3 is customizable roles
The 72 count excludes tech 2 ships and only covers 5 ship categories.
If we count tech 2 dust has 12 skins and 32 suits. I believe eve would have 130ish ships with 72 skins.
Again that's only non rookie frigates-battleships.
Plus eve has waaaaayyyy more types of modules and 8 slots max whereas dust has only 5
we need alot more suits and eve parity on most modules before tiericide would make a big improvement.
We already have little to no variety. Tiericide can't fix that.
Gallente Heavy Ninja Turtles! Gallente Heavy Ninja Turtles!
Heroes in a half Gank!
TURTLE POWER!!!
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Soldner VonKuechle
SAM-MIK
General Tso's Alliance
639
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Posted - 2014.04.28 23:12:00 -
[44] - Quote
Teilka Darkmist wrote:Soldner VonKuechle wrote:True Adamance wrote:Rusty Shallows wrote:Vell0cet wrote:snip
TL;DR: tiericide is f*cking stupid. Most of your post reads like a PAC attack AD. I live in a battleground State so these are pretty easy to spot. Still Tiericide will not work for Dust as it did for EVE, it will either bring some strong benefits or ruin variation and invalidate SP like it does for tank modules. TLDR; tiericide can ONLY work if MORE SCHTUFF is ADDED to the game.-á Wrong, as I detail above. But it does allow for more to be added to the game in the future without seriously unbalancing everything.
We're saying the same thing; why are telling me I'm wrong? Did you miss my coffee - less disorganised post a few up from yours?
The forums are more reliable than my spais :(
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BL4CKST4R
WarRavens
Final Resolution.
2601
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Posted - 2014.04.28 23:21:00 -
[45] - Quote
Dust 514 in its current state
Proto = 800 HP 400 DPS
Basic = 400 HP - 350 DPS
Proto winds through sheer numbers
A tiercided Dust
Basic suit: 400-800 HP 350-400 DPS modules and weapons are what shapes the suit, customization is what matters not brick tanking the **** out of it so you can stomp on anything that has less modules as you. Aurum could b used to buy bpcs and craft these suits etc.
think outside the box, tiercide brings a fair game to everyone it opens the door to balanced pve and a better npe. If this game continues as it is where new players just can't compete it will die, at least this brig a fair solution instead of splitting the community into "tier modes" the player base is small enough as it is. Besides isn't splitting the sheep from the wolf a little care bear ish? I admit I want to blow their faces off but I also want them to enjoy it.
Assault suit: 300-700 HP 400-450 damage, suit is specialized into combat whilst sacrificing some HP.
Logistics suit: 300-700 350-400 damage, lots of equipment.
No suit is better than the other but instead sacrifices Something For Better specialization.
aurum gear you say? Make specialized t2 suits expensive as hell. Since tiercide reduces the total amount of suits coloring could be possible.
For the Federation!
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Leither Yiltron
Twilight Sparkle Best Pony Corp
886
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Posted - 2014.04.28 23:25:00 -
[46] - Quote
So let's break this down:
Vell0cet wrote:NOT WHAT YOU THINK IT IS
It's true that the tiericide that Dust needs isn't equivalent to the one that Eve underwent. The two games are different. Saying that what people are asking for is wrong because they want something different is bonkers. We'll make this conversation about me, since I'm an ancient supporter of suit tiericide and can define the context of it for you. (This post's from September of last year. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1272775#post1272775 )
Vell0cet wrote:
RISK vs. ISK
This is a very rich and interesting mechanic, that not only defines DUST, but distinguishes it from all other FPS games in the market. Choice, consequences, meaning: itGÇÖs the GÇ£special sauceGÇ¥ of DUST 514.
So let's take the time here to clarify what tiericide for Dust actually consults. Again, if you disagree with this approach your problem is with me, not with some nebulous undefined "tiericide supporter" group with equally nebulous definitions.
The core unifying idea of tiericide in Dust is this: as the suit tiers are currently constructed, the ratio of utility gained for ISK spent (utility/cost) is at worst the same for every single level of suit. Realistically as you go up the tiers the utility/cost ratio actually IMPROVES. That means that the more ISK you're allowed to spend the more utility you get. This fundamental flaw with the current suit balancing causes an incredible number of negative side-effects.
Dust 514's design should shine with its RISK vs REWARD philosophy- and the current state of suit tiering undermines it. Because the utility/cost ratio as you upgrade in suit tiers improves rather than decreases up the tree, risk remains essentially unchanged as you climb higher. Your reward, meanwhile, ratchets upward as the incredible utility of higher tier suits allows you to maximize ISK returns from matches.
When I was introduced to Dust, the trumpeted concept from CCP was exponentially decreasing UC ratio in the suit tiers of the game. This fundamental decision would allow player skill to shine through as the factor in day-to-day engagements and encourage the kind of diverse cost vs. utility decision-making that you laud in your post here. Instead that decision-making is flattened to a simple "can I afford the variance?" calculation. It also shatters the "visceral" initial experience of Dust 514 for new players. Because of the easy access veterans have to gain higher utility for their ISK, we all get the pride and joy of explaining to noobies how their first months of Dust are going to be hell.
Vell0cet wrote:AUR GEAR
Tiericide would ruin the AUR market. AUR gear promises to give early access to gear before you have the skills to use it. This goes away when everyone has access to everything with minimal SP requirements. I donGÇÖt know what percentage of DUST 514GÇÖs revenue is produced by AUR gear sales vs. Boosters, but I suspect this would hurt CCPGÇÖs bottom line.
It's an open secret that their biggest money spinners by a large margin are boosters. AUR gear is useless when your game doesn't retain players for long enough to convert them into paying customers. There is no incentive to buy better gear to play a game that you didn't have a good experience with.
Vell0cet wrote:
POWER DIVIDE
Either the power gap is sufficient to incentivize players to commit for the long haul, and put in the time and effort, or itGÇÖs not. Tiericide greatly reduces this incentive.
This statement just downright isn't sound. Dust 514's strength lies in providing the freedom of options to make smart choices which dynamically change your experience. That's the leverage a power gap of any sort is supposed to provide. What it's not supposed to do is guarantee that your gameplay experience is one with flat decision-making: achieve a high SP total while not enjoying yourself, then throw ISK at your suits and improve your gameplay experience by tormenting the next batch of new playres. That's the dynamic a widening power gap creates, and it is a large culprit behind why player retention is so low.
Vell0cet wrote:
NPE
I can assure you that new players will continue to be stomped even if all gear was STD and there was no SP. Teamwork, knowledge of the maps/game mechanics, and experience are huge advantages in this game.
Your argument here is refuted by a vast body of experimental evidence- other games exist, there are veterans in those games, and yet those games have growing player bases. Hell, even Eve has a slowly growing subscriber base despite its similarly punishing learning curve. Although tutorials are helpful, they're ultimately not some sort of cure-all. Most people don't even read the tutorials for games.
Saying that improving the tutorial alone will solve issues with the NPE in the face of the current UC ratio for suit tiers is like saying this: Reading The Art of War will make you A LOT better at winning battles with an army of 500 guys vs 1000 than you would have without The Art of War. That statement is absurd, you're outnumbered 2 to 1 book or not. The book doesn't hurt, but the tools you're given to fight with are pitiful compared to what you're pitted against.
Have a pony
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Leither Yiltron
Twilight Sparkle Best Pony Corp
886
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Posted - 2014.04.28 23:26:00 -
[47] - Quote
Vell0cet wrote:
THE ECONOMY SUCKS
Part of the problem with PRO gear is that the economy is broken. With DNS taking over PC there is way too much ISK being generated without the right ISK sinks to destroy it.
The issue of suit tiering has been around for a very, very long time. That post I referenced up there- that was from September. PC's status as a massive ISK faucet isn't good and it has highlighted suit tiering issues. To the point- the active community had already dwindled to its current core of dedicated fans way before Kane started wheeling and dealing. The tiny shadow of a community left fighting in PC is the reason why that situation is what it is anyways.
I'll say this for a third time- in your post you made a lot of logical, sound conclusions which were directed at hypothetical remedies to the problems with suit tiering. Those are fantastic commentary that can drive us toward an actually functional solution. They do not add up to the problem not existing.
There have been quite a lot of potential specific implementations of fixing suit tiering, and a lot of great ideas. In the short term those aren't the highest community priority, though. CCP are game designers- they design games. Our goal as a community shouldn't be to try to tell artists how to make their work, but to convince CCP that the work needs doing. IE: that the way suits are tiered in Dust IS a problem with crippling consequences.
Vell0cet wrote:TL;DR: tiericide is f*cking stupid.
This is in something like the top 3 on the list of ways to communicate ineffectively.
Soraya Xel wrote:Tiericide is one of those buzzwords that gets flown around a lot, I think without everyone realizing it's implications or what it means. I am unconvinced "tiericide" is the magical fix-all for the game. And emphasizing ISK efficiency would do wonders, as people can be competitively marked using any tier of gear, based on how well they use it.
Like I detailed in the previous post, there is a fundamental unifying concept behind tiericide. Deriding it as not a "magical fix-all" for the game is a straw man. The word does get used as a buzzword, and that's why I'm providing a firm definition of what tiericide entails. I'm not claiming that it's is a magical cure-all, nor does anyone expect any change to be some sort of panacea for Dust's problems since those don't really exist. I agree that the word
Have a pony
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Teilka Darkmist
302
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Posted - 2014.04.28 23:32:00 -
[48] - Quote
Auris Lionesse wrote:Teilka Darkmist wrote:Auris Lionesse wrote:Tl:dr = Op has no idea what he's talking about.
assaults and logis are specialized roles making them tech 2.
The only valid argument against tiericide is we don't have enough suits to make it worth it.
Eve has 6 frigates, 2 destroyers, 4 cruisers, 3 battle cruisers and 3 battleships that are just "tech one"
Excluding capitals and industrials and tech two and factional etc etc that's 18 ships so 72 ships among 4 races before you count all the others. Making eve at least 6x times more diverse than dust.
it's actually much greater but you get the point.
Dust has 3 per race, making 12 among the 4 races. This is why our variety is so lacking. We have no suits, our only "variety" comes from the ineffective tiers and palette swaps. Standard and advanced tiers suck and every complains about proto being to strong. we should have 4-5 different suits per category. With a specialized tech 2 version of each. Meaning 12-15 unique skins and 24-30 suits per race FOR STARTERS.
Tiericide is getting rid of the three suit tiers and making all suits good instead of having useless standard-advanced tiers.
Even with this solely valid argument against tiericide we still need it. You're both right and wrong here. Right because tiericide is about specialising the higher ranked suits, making them better than the lower ranked ones at specific roles, like Logi, scout, assault, heavy. Wrong in your comparison to the ship classes in EVE. Dropsuits aren't the equivalent of all the ship classes in EVE, they're the equivalent of just one of the classes. So standard suits would be the equivalent of T1, low bonuses to give light, medium and heavy suits a bit of a role bonus, but make them still usable for any role. Advanced would be the equivalent of T2, better bonuses in more specific fields, so you start to properly see Logi, Scout, Heavy Weapons and Assault, maybe adding something like a Combat engineer at some point in the future, but at this level they start to also get less effective in other roles. And Proto would be T3, where suits are the best they can be at one task, maybe bonused for one type of weapon or equipment, but they're at a serious disadvantage if you fit them for other roles. Each race would have it's own specialisations in each role by what types of modules they're bonused for. Amarr assaults would have bonuses to laser rifles and Caldari assaults bonussed for Rail rifles , for example. That way to get the most out of the game, you would not only put SP into whatever specialisation you wanted to play, but you'd also go into other races to give you more weapons variation or into other roles for greater tactical flexibility on the battlefield. This is exactly how it works in EVE, you don't fit lasers onto a Minmatar Logi ship, like the Scythe, because there is a better ship for them, in the form of the Ammaran Maller or Omen. The suits would also get slot layouts and bonusses for either shield or armour tanking, making it much rarer to find someone who has set up a dual tanked dropsuit with three or four times the base eHP. I don't really understand why the dropsuits weren't set up this way in the first place or why CCP didn't foresee the protostomping problem with how the suits are set up at the moment. There would, of course, be a period of adjustment whilst players got used to the new system, but once that period was over, Dust would be a more balanced game where new players wouldn't automatically be stomped because they don't run all proto gear and skill and tactical squad composition would become an important factor. Or that's what I think anyway. No tech 1 is basic frames. Tech 2 is specialized roles And tech 3 is customizable roles The 72 count excludes tech 2 ships and only covers 5 ship categories. If we count tech 2 dust has 12 skins and 32 suits. I believe eve would have 130ish ships with 72 skins. Again that's only non rookie frigates-battleships. Plus eve has waaaaayyyy more types of modules and 8 slots max whereas dust has only 5 we need alot more suits and eve parity on most modules before tiericide would make a big improvement. We already have little to no variety. Tiericide can't fix that.
Dust dropsuit levels are not equivalent to ship classes in Eve. We're all in the same class, the dropsuit levels are equivalent to the eve ships tech level.
And lack of variety is exactly why we need tiercide, because it will create more variety as each level of dropsuit becomes a more specialist thing. Standard suits would be highly flexible on the battlefield, but never doing any one role as well as the others, Advanced would be more specialised, but still with a bit of flexibility and prototype would be highly specialised at one role and ineffective at others.
The standard suits, would effectively be the current light, medium and heavy ones. Little in the way of bonuses so they're versatile and adaptable. Advanced would give you some role bonuses so you're encouraged to fit them a certain way, but they still have some flexibility. This is where you get the equivalent of the Scout, Assault, Logistics and Commando roles. Prototype would be a step beyond where suits are bonused so that they're extremely effective at one aspect of their role, so this is where you'd get dedicated snipers, and advanced scouts, and things like healer logi or support logi. But the Prototype suits would, through adjustment of the slots, pg and cpu, be only good at their intended role.
I don't think I'm explaining this very well to be honest, but the main point is not comparing the range of dropsuits to the whole range of ships in eve, but comparing them to a single ship class, like frigates for example.
I'm not sure how vehicles fit in, I've never really used them and never really studied them at all.
Woman.
Sniper, but from near the opponent's redline more often than not.
Not a KDR Worshipper.
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Godin Thekiller
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2096
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Posted - 2014.04.28 23:33:00 -
[49] - Quote
Autoaim Bot514 wrote:Auris Lionesse wrote:Godin Thekiller wrote:Auris Lionesse wrote:Tl:dr
Op has no idea what he's talking about.
assaults and logis are specialized roles making them tech 2.
The only valid argument against tiericide is we don't have enough suits to make it worth it.
Eve has 6 frigates, 2 destroyers, 4 cruisers, 3 battle cruisers and 3 battleships that are just "tech one"
Excluding capitals and industrials and tech two/tech3 factional etc etc that's 18 ships so 72 ships among 4 races before you count all the others. Making eve at least 6x times more diverse than dust.
it's actually much greater but you get the point.
Dust has 3 per race, making 12 among the 4 races. This is why our variety is so lacking. We have no suits, our only "variety" comes from the ineffective tiers and palette swaps. Standard and advanced tiers suck and every complains about proto being to strong. we should have 4-5 different suits per category. With a specialized tech 2 version of each. Meaning 12-15 unique skins and 24-30 suits per race FOR STARTERS.
Tiericide is getting rid of the three suit tiers and making all suits good instead of having useless standard-advanced tiers. EVE has lots more due to having more than just combat..... I only counted combat ships in the 72 and I even excluded titans carriers dreadnoughts and motherships. Not having to create 3 suits for each role would free CCP up to introduce more roles for new suits.
That's one of my points of tiercide: balance and growth is far easier.
click me
Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
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Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
8148
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Posted - 2014.04.28 23:34:00 -
[50] - Quote
Well, if there is any thread out there that has the power to change my mind about tieracide it would be this thread. The point about the BPOs and AUR gear is very convincing especially.
Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer
Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor
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Godin Thekiller
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2096
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Posted - 2014.04.28 23:36:00 -
[51] - Quote
Cotsy wrote:Delta 749 wrote:So you support pay to win then right? A little open ended here, but the idea of AUR being purchased would greatly help CCP. The idea of a matchmaking tier system as I have described it would be based on SP at low levels and SP + skill at higher levels. If one is able to get AUR gear at a lower level, it would provide a marginal advantage over his fellow beginners, or battle academy members. CCP is not a pay to win, because everyone can purchase the same gear either via AUR or time/playing the game. Having a tier system like I suggested would be a greater benefit to CCP money wise but would only give players a marginal advantage and for a very very short time. AUR would also allow players in the second bracket to use all the gear they used in Academy, which would encourage players to spend more money, and doesn't provide any advantage. AUR provides very small advantages in the early process, and frankly, none at later tiers. The game is far from pay to win, it's more of the EVE model whereby the longer you're account has been active the more likely you are given the advantage. This doesn't always hold true because boosters, and time played, but it's not too far off the EVE model.
Wait, you realize that this game might not stay with matches like this, right?
click me
Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14389
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Posted - 2014.04.28 23:40:00 -
[52] - Quote
Let me throw a curveball at you then.
You have infinite isk and SP
Justify not using prototype gear.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
8148
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Posted - 2014.04.28 23:43:00 -
[53] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Let me throw a curveball at you then.
You have infinite isk and SP
Justify not using prototype gear.
Assuming the economy is in full swing and PC gets fixed, ISK. ISK will justify not using pro gear like we see now.
Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer
Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14389
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Posted - 2014.04.28 23:47:00 -
[54] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Let me throw a curveball at you then.
You have infinite isk and SP
Justify not using prototype gear. Assuming the economy is in full swing and PC gets fixed, ISK. ISK will justify not using pro gear like we see now. Imagine paying ten million ISK for a proto setup. Edit: one more thing. If the economy and of is fixed, no one will have infinite ISK.
That doesn't answer the hypothetical which is regardless a highly possible situation without the artificiality.
Infinite isk
and more SP than that suit can ever use in any type of situation
Justify not using prototype.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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Godin Thekiller
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2098
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Posted - 2014.04.28 23:48:00 -
[55] - Quote
Rusty Shallows wrote:True Adamance wrote:Rusty Shallows wrote:Vell0cet wrote:snip
TL;DR: tiericide is f*cking stupid. Most of your post reads like a PAC attack AD. I live in a battleground State so these are pretty easy to spot. Still Tiericide will not work for Dust as it did for EVE, it will either bring some strong benefits or ruin variation and invalidate SP like it does for tank modules. Agreed that it would ruin modules. It could work for reorganizing weapon sub-variants by skill level rather than having so many teirs. Where it can shine is holding back power creep on Frames and Vehicles. Both of those are areas we'e had (or are having) trouble with.
Well, if skills were worth a damn, and the TTK wasn't **** for vehicles, if modules had verity but were tiercided, I bet that wouldn't matter.
click me
Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
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Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
8148
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Posted - 2014.04.28 23:51:00 -
[56] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Let me throw a curveball at you then.
You have infinite isk and SP
Justify not using prototype gear. Assuming the economy is in full swing and PC gets fixed, ISK. ISK will justify not using pro gear like we see now. Imagine paying ten million ISK for a proto setup. Edit: one more thing. If the economy and of is fixed, no one will have infinite ISK. That doesn't answer the hypothetical which is regardless a highly possible situation without the artificiality. Infinite isk and more SP than that suit can ever use in any type of situation Justify not using prototype.
Then no one can justify not using proto in that situation. This is why fixing PC is important first and foremost to address the infinite ISK problem in addition to dealing with alt-recycling exploiters.
Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer
Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14390
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Posted - 2014.04.28 23:53:00 -
[57] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Let me throw a curveball at you then.
You have infinite isk and SP
Justify not using prototype gear. Assuming the economy is in full swing and PC gets fixed, ISK. ISK will justify not using pro gear like we see now. Imagine paying ten million ISK for a proto setup. Edit: one more thing. If the economy and of is fixed, no one will have infinite ISK. That doesn't answer the hypothetical which is regardless a highly possible situation without the artificiality. Infinite isk and more SP than that suit can ever use in any type of situation Justify not using prototype. Then no one can justify not using proto in that situation. This is why fixing PC is important first and foremost to address the infinite ISK problem in addition to dealing with alt-recycling exploiters.
Fixing PC will not magically make that isk disappear; we all remember that little recent horror story of that one corp holding newbies hostage and taxing them 100% to fund their tanks. Similar to eve today; no matter how many titans you sink they just magically (though realistically its not magic but alot of work) get replaced the next day.
There are other ways to continuously fund players without passive isk with permanent flow of isk enough to sustain them; farming is a popular one.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
2187
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Posted - 2014.04.28 23:55:00 -
[58] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Let me throw a curveball at you then.
You have infinite isk and SP
Justify not using prototype gear.
If proto has enough diminishing returns, that it's barely superior, but drastically more costly, only those who are the absolute richest and most tryhardy will always use proto. And if diminishing returns on gear quality works right, proto will be a small enough increment above advanced, that it won't help them compensate for a lack of player skill.
I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14390
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Posted - 2014.04.28 23:58:00 -
[59] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Let me throw a curveball at you then.
You have infinite isk and SP
Justify not using prototype gear. If proto has enough diminishing returns, that it's barely superior, but drastically more costly, only those who are the absolute richest and most tryhardy will always use proto. And if diminishing returns on gear quality works right, proto will be a small enough increment above advanced, that it won't help them compensate for a lack of player skill.
What you just said is another form of tiericide though; just you killed top tier. Similar to shifting assault needs to lvl 3 from basic skill killed basic prototype tier. Advanced becomes the new top tier and anyone caught dead wearing proto is going to be considered a noob.
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=17425453
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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ZDub 303
TeamPlayers
Dirt Nap Squad.
2598
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Posted - 2014.04.28 23:58:00 -
[60] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:Then no one can justify not using proto in that situation. This is why fixing PC is important first and foremost to address the infinite ISK problem in addition to dealing with alt-recycling exploiters.
That is the point though, you cannot justify not using prototype.
But you could probably justify using Assault vs Logi vs Scout vs Commando. They all have a purpose and a role on the field.
While you may think 'fixing' PC would fix protostomping, I can guarantee you it would not. Even an ISK reset would not fix it. There are enough people out there who could work out using proto + squad tactics to roll over another team. I use proto constantly, I've received very very little in terms of 'PC paychecks' and I can still remain at approximately the same wallet size and I know many others who do that as well.
Once the player market is introduced you'll have P2Wers buying and selling boosters maintaining large wallets and also running proto gear constantly.
There is no reason not to run proto gear if you have the ability to. It just doesn't make sense to have that power differential, its so large and it drives new players away. |
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Auris Lionesse
Kang Lo Directorate
Gallente Federation
769
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Posted - 2014.04.29 00:02:00 -
[61] - Quote
Teilka Darkmist wrote:Auris Lionesse wrote:Teilka Darkmist wrote:*snip for length* No tech 1 is basic frames. Tech 2 is specialized roles And tech 3 is customizable roles The 72 count excludes tech 2 ships and only covers 5 ship categories. If we count tech 2 dust has 12 skins and 32 suits. I believe eve would have 130ish ships with 72 skins. Again that's only non rookie frigates-battleships. Plus eve has waaaaayyyy more types of modules and 8 slots max whereas dust has only 5 we need alot more suits and eve parity on most modules before tiericide would make a big improvement. We already have little to no variety. Tiericide can't fix that. Dust dropsuit levels are not equivalent to ship classes in Eve. We're all in the same class, the dropsuit levels are equivalent to the eve ships tech level. And lack of variety is exactly why we need tiercide, because it will create more variety as each level of dropsuit becomes a more specialist thing. Standard suits would be highly flexible on the battlefield, but never doing any one role as well as the others, Advanced would be more specialised, but still with a bit of flexibility and prototype would be highly specialised at one role and ineffective at others. The standard suits, would effectively be the current light, medium and heavy ones. Little in the way of bonuses so they're versatile and adaptable. Advanced would give you some role bonuses so you're encouraged to fit them a certain way, but they still have some flexibility. This is where you get the equivalent of the Scout, Assault, Logistics and Commando roles. Prototype would be a step beyond where suits are bonused so that they're extremely effective at one aspect of their role, so this is where you'd get dedicated snipers, and advanced scouts, and things like healer logi or support logi. But the Prototype suits would, through adjustment of the slots, pg and cpu, be only good at their intended role. I don't think I'm explaining this very well to be honest, but the main point is not comparing the range of dropsuits to the whole range of ships in eve, but comparing them to a single ship class, like frigates for example. I'm not sure how vehicles fit in, I've never really used them and never really studied them at all. [Edit because I forgot to mention this] Aurum gear should be limited to cosmetic changes and boosters.
"Dust dropsuit levels are not equivalent to ship classes in Eve."
In what way are they not?
Light suit = frigate
Scout = covert ops frigate (T2)
medium = cruiser
assault = heavy assault cruiser (T2)
Logistics = logistics (T2)
Heavy = battleship
Commando = battlecruiser (idiosyncrasy)
Sentinel = marauder (T2)
Gallente Heavy Ninja Turtles! Gallente Heavy Ninja Turtles!
Heroes in a half Gank!
TURTLE POWER!!!
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Teilka Darkmist
302
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 00:12:00 -
[62] - Quote
Auris Lionesse wrote:Teilka Darkmist wrote:Auris Lionesse wrote:Teilka Darkmist wrote:*snip for length* No tech 1 is basic frames. Tech 2 is specialized roles And tech 3 is customizable roles The 72 count excludes tech 2 ships and only covers 5 ship categories. If we count tech 2 dust has 12 skins and 32 suits. I believe eve would have 130ish ships with 72 skins. Again that's only non rookie frigates-battleships. Plus eve has waaaaayyyy more types of modules and 8 slots max whereas dust has only 5 we need alot more suits and eve parity on most modules before tiericide would make a big improvement. We already have little to no variety. Tiericide can't fix that. Dust dropsuit levels are not equivalent to ship classes in Eve. We're all in the same class, the dropsuit levels are equivalent to the eve ships tech level. And lack of variety is exactly why we need tiercide, because it will create more variety as each level of dropsuit becomes a more specialist thing. Standard suits would be highly flexible on the battlefield, but never doing any one role as well as the others, Advanced would be more specialised, but still with a bit of flexibility and prototype would be highly specialised at one role and ineffective at others. The standard suits, would effectively be the current light, medium and heavy ones. Little in the way of bonuses so they're versatile and adaptable. Advanced would give you some role bonuses so you're encouraged to fit them a certain way, but they still have some flexibility. This is where you get the equivalent of the Scout, Assault, Logistics and Commando roles. Prototype would be a step beyond where suits are bonused so that they're extremely effective at one aspect of their role, so this is where you'd get dedicated snipers, and advanced scouts, and things like healer logi or support logi. But the Prototype suits would, through adjustment of the slots, pg and cpu, be only good at their intended role. I don't think I'm explaining this very well to be honest, but the main point is not comparing the range of dropsuits to the whole range of ships in eve, but comparing them to a single ship class, like frigates for example. I'm not sure how vehicles fit in, I've never really used them and never really studied them at all. [Edit because I forgot to mention this] Aurum gear should be limited to cosmetic changes and boosters. "Dust dropsuit levels are not equivalent to ship classes in Eve. We're all in the same class, the dropsuit levels are equivalent to the eve ships tech level." In what way are they not? Light suit = frigate Scout = covert ops frigate (T2) medium = cruiser assault = heavy assault cruiser (T2) Logistics = logistics (T2) Heavy = battleship Commando = battlecruiser (idiosyncrasy) Sentinel = marauder (T2)
Going to start with the obvious one. Logistics isn't a class of it's own, you get logistics at frigate and cruiser level so that comparison fails.
As to the others, you're only really taking into account size of weapon and eHP of each class or suit type. What you're failing to take into account is that, for the most part, each class of ship in Eve is best suited to taking out the same class of ship. The exception being destroyers making excellent frigate killers. Whereas in Dust, the medium and light suits are on a par with each other in terms of how easy it is for one to kill the other, allowing for equally skilled players, and the heavy wipes the floor with all of them. So at best, light and medium suits are equivalent to frigates and heavies are equivalent to destroyers. As has been pointed out to me quite effectively in Iron Wolf Sabre's thread about the same topic.
Woman.
Sniper, but from near the opponent's redline more often than not.
Not a KDR Worshipper.
|
Scheneighnay McBob
T.R.I.A.D
Ushra'Khan
4970
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 00:17:00 -
[63] - Quote
I'll throw in some counterpoints here:
Tiers in Eve: you'll have to elaborate on things like fleet ships little more on that: do these require a higher skill level or not? Sounds to me like they're just harder to obtain. There's also a big difference between tiers and tech levels- going from basic medum to logi is a tech level, not a tier.
Risk vs ISK: higher tech level ships will cost more and be better in certain aspects. Worse in others, but the pros will outweigh the cons as far as new stats.
BPOs: there is a temporary and a permanent solution to this. The temporary is to keep the BPOs at low tech levels. Basic medium, most basic logi, barebones assault rifle, etc. In the long run when we can make our own stuff, BPOs can become crafting schematics. AUR and event BPOs being more efficient to use than future BPOs
AUR: Again, super easy- just let us buy aurum from the next tech level.
Power divide: See risk vs ISK. Did you just do that to add more points?
NPE: While nothing can fix NPE, it won't be AS BAD as it is now.
TL;DR, you don't understand what tech levels are end ended up needlessly typing all that because of it.
/timetravel
Best thread of all time
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Auris Lionesse
Kang Lo Directorate
Gallente Federation
769
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 00:25:00 -
[64] - Quote
Teilka Darkmist wrote:Auris Lionesse wrote:Teilka Darkmist wrote:Auris Lionesse wrote:Teilka Darkmist wrote:*snip for length* No tech 1 is basic frames. Tech 2 is specialized roles And tech 3 is customizable roles The 72 count excludes tech 2 ships and only covers 5 ship categories. If we count tech 2 dust has 12 skins and 32 suits. I believe eve would have 130ish ships with 72 skins. Again that's only non rookie frigates-battleships. Plus eve has waaaaayyyy more types of modules and 8 slots max whereas dust has only 5 we need alot more suits and eve parity on most modules before tiericide would make a big improvement. We already have little to no variety. Tiericide can't fix that. Dust dropsuit levels are not equivalent to ship classes in Eve. We're all in the same class, the dropsuit levels are equivalent to the eve ships tech level. And lack of variety is exactly why we need tiercide, because it will create more variety as each level of dropsuit becomes a more specialist thing. Standard suits would be highly flexible on the battlefield, but never doing any one role as well as the others, Advanced would be more specialised, but still with a bit of flexibility and prototype would be highly specialised at one role and ineffective at others. The standard suits, would effectively be the current light, medium and heavy ones. Little in the way of bonuses so they're versatile and adaptable. Advanced would give you some role bonuses so you're encouraged to fit them a certain way, but they still have some flexibility. This is where you get the equivalent of the Scout, Assault, Logistics and Commando roles. Prototype would be a step beyond where suits are bonused so that they're extremely effective at one aspect of their role, so this is where you'd get dedicated snipers, and advanced scouts, and things like healer logi or support logi. But the Prototype suits would, through adjustment of the slots, pg and cpu, be only good at their intended role. I don't think I'm explaining this very well to be honest, but the main point is not comparing the range of dropsuits to the whole range of ships in eve, but comparing them to a single ship class, like frigates for example. I'm not sure how vehicles fit in, I've never really used them and never really studied them at all. [Edit because I forgot to mention this] Aurum gear should be limited to cosmetic changes and boosters. "Dust dropsuit levels are not equivalent to ship classes in Eve. We're all in the same class, the dropsuit levels are equivalent to the eve ships tech level." In what way are they not? Light suit = frigate Scout = covert ops frigate (T2) medium = cruiser assault = heavy assault cruiser (T2) Logistics = logistics (T2) Heavy = battleship Commando = battlecruiser (idiosyncrasy) Sentinel = marauder (T2) Going to start with the obvious one. Logistics isn't a class of it's own, you get logistics at frigate and cruiser level so that comparison fails. As to the others, you're only really taking into account size of weapon and eHP of each class or suit type. What you're failing to take into account is that, for the most part, each class of ship in Eve is best suited to taking out the same class of ship. The exception being destroyers making excellent frigate killers. Whereas in Dust, the medium and light suits are on a par with each other in terms of how easy it is for one to kill the other, allowing for equally skilled players, and the heavy wipes the floor with all of them. So at best, light and medium suits are equivalent to frigates and heavies are equivalent to destroyers. As has been pointed out to me quite effectively in Iron Wolf Sabre's thread about the same topic.
Yes logistics is a class of it's own within cruisers.
the tech 1 frigates are light logistics. And aren't as specialized like the tech 2 cruiser one.
And your second point is because this is a fps, every player should be able to kill every other player with skill.
Iws generally has terrible opinions especially on assault suits.
Commandos are the closest thing to a destroyer as a battlecruiser which is a cruiser destroyer.
Gallente Heavy Ninja Turtles! Gallente Heavy Ninja Turtles!
Heroes in a half Gank!
TURTLE POWER!!!
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Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
3547
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 00:26:00 -
[65] - Quote
It's funny how nobody attempts to refute Leither. That dude can throw down a post.
Level 3 Forum Warrior
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Autoaim Bot514
The Hetairoi
96
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 00:34:00 -
[66] - Quote
Soldner VonKuechle wrote:True Adamance wrote:Rusty Shallows wrote:Vell0cet wrote:snip
TL;DR: tiericide is f*cking stupid. Most of your post reads like a PAC attack AD. I live in a battleground State so these are pretty easy to spot. Still Tiericide will not work for Dust as it did for EVE, it will either bring some strong benefits or ruin variation and invalidate SP like it does for tank modules. TLDR; tiericide can ONLY work if MORE SCHTUFF is ADDED to the game.-á
No, it'd work just fine. Itll be easier to add stuff after tiericide. |
Autoaim Bot514
The Hetairoi
96
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 00:35:00 -
[67] - Quote
Rusty Shallows wrote:True Adamance wrote:Rusty Shallows wrote:Vell0cet wrote:snip
TL;DR: tiericide is f*cking stupid. Most of your post reads like a PAC attack AD. I live in a battleground State so these are pretty easy to spot. Still Tiericide will not work for Dust as it did for EVE, it will either bring some strong benefits or ruin variation and invalidate SP like it does for tank modules. Agreed that it would ruin modules. It could work for reorganizing weapon sub-variants by skill level rather than having so many teirs. Where it can shine is holding back power creep on Frames and Vehicles. Both of those are areas we'e had (or are having) trouble with.
Which is why you dont tiericide the models. FFS, the only thing that needs to get teiricide are the suits. |
Soldner VonKuechle
SAM-MIK
General Tso's Alliance
641
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 00:35:00 -
[68] - Quote
Autoaim Bot514 wrote:Soldner VonKuechle wrote:True Adamance wrote:Rusty Shallows wrote:Vell0cet wrote:snip
TL;DR: tiericide is f*cking stupid. Most of your post reads like a PAC attack AD. I live in a battleground State so these are pretty easy to spot. Still Tiericide will not work for Dust as it did for EVE, it will either bring some strong benefits or ruin variation and invalidate SP like it does for tank modules. TLDR; tiericide can ONLY work if MORE SCHTUFF is ADDED to the game.-á No, it'd work just fine. Itll be easier to add stuff after tiericide.
Ya know the more I muse about it the more it'll work immediately.
The forums are more reliable than my spais :(
|
ZDub 303
TeamPlayers
Dirt Nap Squad.
2602
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 00:36:00 -
[69] - Quote
Autoaim Bot514 wrote:
No, it'd work just fine. Itll be easier to add stuff after tiericide.
Exactly, not sure why this is so hard to grasp... |
Soldner VonKuechle
SAM-MIK
General Tso's Alliance
641
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 00:38:00 -
[70] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:Autoaim Bot514 wrote:
No, it'd work just fine. Itll be easier to add stuff after tiericide.
Exactly, not sure why this is so hard to grasp...
Variety is already dead so what harm could it do right?
The forums are more reliable than my spais :(
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Teilka Darkmist
302
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 00:38:00 -
[71] - Quote
Scheneighnay McBob wrote:I'll throw in some counterpoints here:
Tiers in Eve: you'll have to elaborate on things like fleet ships little more on that: do these require a higher skill level or not? Sounds to me like they're just harder to obtain. There's also a big difference between tiers and tech levels- going from basic medum to logi is a tech level, not a tier.
Risk vs ISK: higher tech level ships will cost more and be better in certain aspects. Worse in others, but the pros will outweigh the cons as far as new stats.
BPOs: there is a temporary and a permanent solution to this. The temporary is to keep the BPOs at low tech levels. Basic medium, most basic logi, barebones assault rifle, etc. In the long run when we can make our own stuff, BPOs can become crafting schematics. AUR and event BPOs being more efficient to use than future BPOs
AUR: Again, super easy- just let us buy aurum from the next tech level.
Power divide: See risk vs ISK. Did you just do that to add more points?
NPE: While nothing can fix NPE, it won't be AS BAD as it is now.
TL;DR, you don't understand what tech levels are end ended up needlessly typing all that because of it.
It's been a while since I looked at the skill requirements for navy faction ships, but if I remember right, they need a slightly higher level of the relevant skill than the plain T1 variant. I could easily be wrong here, but I'm not in a position to check it right now.
Risk Vs Isk - That seems to be essentially what I'm advocating, higher level gear should be better in specific roles and not as effective in the others. This would cost more isk for higher levels and make the player have to decide if the risk was worth it for themselves.
BPO's - Yes, I agree. Blueprints should be manufacturing related items, not an infinite supply of the item in question with no cost at all. Of course for that to happen, manufacturing has to be introduced to dust, which I, personally, think would be a good thing, but I don't imagine would be an idea welcomed by a broad section of the playerbase. I believe manufacturing is needed to get dust started on a proper player driven economy before it's linked to eve. But I doubt it will happen. I just hope that CCP's solution is effective, whatever it turns out to be.
Aurum - I disagree here. I think aurum should be for cosmetic differences and boosters only as using aurum to buy the next tier, starts to open the door to making the game pay to win, and I don't think any serious player really wants that.
NPE - This is something CCP has always had a problem with. Whilst Eve's NPE is better now than it was in the past it still has a long way to go. Dust does need more of an introduction to the game and it's various mechanics, but it also needs a better way to transition from some hopefully future PvE tutorial type system to the core game of PvP. This is more important in Dust, in my opinion, than it is in eve as there is no real core gameplay in Dust that isn't PvP
Only the very start of this has anything to do with tiercide though, which is what this thread is supposed ti be about.
Woman.
Sniper, but from near the opponent's redline more often than not.
Not a KDR Worshipper.
|
Autoaim Bot514
The Hetairoi
96
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 00:42:00 -
[72] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:Autoaim Bot514 wrote:
No, it'd work just fine. Itll be easier to add stuff after tiericide.
Exactly, not sure why this is so hard to grasp...
Exactly, why should someone at CCP waste time making 3 suits for each class of each race when they could just make 1 suit.
Thats one suit that you'd have incentive to skill up to get an edge over opponents through bonuses, or, keep the skill low if you just want to check it out for theory crafting.
As for the AUR/BPO issue: AUR should be used for boosters and cosmetics only, like camos you can buy and aply to any item: see planetside 2. BPO's would be converted into ADV varients for suits, and be labeled as militia.
Problem solved.
Autoaim Bot514 wrote:Heres how it would work, as I imagine it:
Take the unbonused frame suits (light med and heavy) and keep the ADV as the new militia variants, none of which would require SP. The pro, you get to try out these suits, but they dont specialized, dont get any kind of bonus. basically, they are there for you to try out, find your playstyle before you commit SP.
Now, regular suits. All suits are to be replaced by their Proto equivilent. Example:
To unlock a minmatar Logi suit, you need to invest first in the Minmatar Dropsuit skill (this replaces the min light, med and heavy suit skills, SP sinks as they are). Different tiers of this skill unlock the different types of suit, similarly to todays dropsuit command skill, which I would remove. 1=Assault, 3=Scout,pilot, 5= sentinel, etc.
Minmatar Dropsuits 3 > Minmatar Logistics 1 = todays proto min logi.
Now, this suit will not be at its full potential, but you have the same amount of slots as everyone else and fitting. But, with the skill at just 1, you wont be as powerful, but you will be close. As you add more SP to the suit skill it gets better.
Caldari Dropsuits 5 > Caldari Commando 1 = todays proto Calcommando.
etc
TL;DR: all suits are now protosuits, SP just makes them better thru bonuses, nearly equalizing suits thru fitting, and not relying on "content = variety" |
Autoaim Bot514
The Hetairoi
96
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 00:43:00 -
[73] - Quote
Soldner VonKuechle wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:Autoaim Bot514 wrote:
No, it'd work just fine. Itll be easier to add stuff after tiericide.
Exactly, not sure why this is so hard to grasp... Variety is already dead so what harm could it do right?
Having 3 suits that are incrementally better is not variety. |
Soldner VonKuechle
SAM-MIK
General Tso's Alliance
641
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 00:46:00 -
[74] - Quote
Autoaim Bot514 wrote:Soldner VonKuechle wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:Autoaim Bot514 wrote:
No, it'd work just fine. Itll be easier to add stuff after tiericide.
Exactly, not sure why this is so hard to grasp... Variety is already dead so what harm could it do right? Having 3 suits that are incrementally better is not variety.
Lol do you use any of them besides proto to fight/stomp and militia/bpo for isk?
I know I don't.
Anyone says otherwise is probably a liar.
The forums are more reliable than my spais :(
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ZDub 303
TeamPlayers
Dirt Nap Squad.
2602
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 00:53:00 -
[75] - Quote
Soldner VonKuechle wrote:Autoaim Bot514 wrote:Soldner VonKuechle wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:Autoaim Bot514 wrote:
No, it'd work just fine. Itll be easier to add stuff after tiericide.
Exactly, not sure why this is so hard to grasp... Variety is already dead so what harm could it do right? Having 3 suits that are incrementally better is not variety. Lol do you use any of them besides proto to fight/stomp and militia/bpo for isk? I know I don't. Anyone says otherwise is probably a liar.
I don't use anything but my Amarr Logi ak.0, if I were to skill into another suit I probably wouldn't use it very often until I also had that suit to 5 and could use the *k.0 version of that suit.
Tiercide means I could skill into... Minmatar Logistics Dropsuit today and use it somewhat effectively on the field. It's not as good as my fully skilled ak.0, but its not so inferior that I just flat out have no reason to use it, like a m-1 or m/1 logi suit would be if I skilled into min logi right now (not enough SP to take it straight to 5 atm).
In fact, I feel like we would be MORE variety on the field, as people would be willing to branch out more and bring a larger variety of suits to the field than just the one suit they got to 5. |
Stiddlefaxq
Vherokior Combat Logistics
Minmatar Republic
70
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 00:59:00 -
[76] - Quote
Vell0cet wrote: With DNS taking over PC there is way too much ISK being generated without the right ISK sinks to destroy it.
And if DNS didn't control PC, that faucet would still be there. It is OK, you can identify a problem without attributing it to "the bad guys". Attributing it to DNS just muddles your argument in political BS.
If anything, DNS controlling PC just forces more clone pack attacks. Destroying ISK. |
Soldner VonKuechle
SAM-MIK
General Tso's Alliance
641
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 01:11:00 -
[77] - Quote
Stiddlefaxq wrote:Vell0cet wrote: With DNS taking over PC there is way too much ISK being generated without the right ISK sinks to destroy it. And if DNS didn't control PC, that faucet would still be there. It is OK, you can identify a problem without attributing it to "the bad guys". Attributing it to DNS just muddles your argument in political BS. If anything, DNS controlling PC just forces more clone pack attacks. Destroying ISK.
Hey this is about tiericide and the death of variety.
Stump PC fight generation someplace else please 
The forums are more reliable than my spais :(
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Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui
The Containment Unit
664
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 01:15:00 -
[78] - Quote
Thank you Vell0cet , you are now one of my favorite merc's in all of New Eden .
You are one of my Dust hero's and join the likes of , I-Shayz-I , Cosgar , TechMechMeds , The Horned Wolf ( there is only one ) , Tebu Gan and a few others that I won't name as yet .
Stop asking for tiercide , your killing variety and the fun of this game at the same dam time .
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Luk Manag
of Terror
TRE GAFFEL
426
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 02:11:00 -
[79] - Quote
Stiddlefaxq wrote:Vell0cet wrote: With DNS taking over PC there is way too much ISK being generated without the right ISK sinks to destroy it. And if DNS didn't control PC, that faucet would still be there. It is OK, you can identify a problem without attributing it to "the bad guys". Attributing it to DNS just muddles your argument in political BS. If anything, DNS controlling PC just forces more clone pack attacks. Destroying ISK.
Vell0cet understands Dust 514. The apparently broken aspects of PC ISK may be an experiment, because CCP still hasn't figured out how the unique Dust 514 feeling of risk vs reward will be preserved when they unify the markets. I think we will see an announcement of a unified market in the next year, and IWS may be alluding to a keynote announcement to that effect, unified markets, sponsorship, resale/auctions of assets...so some people will will have unlimited ISK. For example, I have about 10 billion ISK, and another 20 bil in ships and other assets, in Eve. Any scenario that allows me to build suits, sponsor matches, or transfer ISK will affect how I play Dust 514. I occasionally run cheap fits to recoup ISK losses, and I wouldn't worry about the loss if I could mine ICE for the ISK. Isk from Eve would give me a reason to keep playing Eve, and allow me to sponsor my friends, and maybe hire enough 'friends' for PC, but I don't know how I will feel when the isk is unlimited in Dust. I don't know if I would care about 60% off AUR weapons...I would probably need to calculate Dollar-PLEX-ISK exchange rates first.
There will be bullets. ACR+SMG [CEO of Terror]
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14397
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 02:44:00 -
[80] - Quote
Still waiting on an answer to my previous conundrum though.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
|
|
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Vell0cet
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Squad.
1491
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 03:05:00 -
[81] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Still waiting on an answer to my previous conundrum though.
An ISK efficiency stat would be one reason. The same player with infinite ISK that enjoys padding his K/D with nonstop PRO gear would likely have some very ugly ISK efficiency numbers. Players in EVE with billions of ISK don't run golems fitted like the killmail you linked for the very same reason: it's embarrassing as hell.
Best PvE idea ever!
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Gaelon Thrace
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
206
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 03:34:00 -
[82] - Quote
Vell0cet wrote:NOT WHAT YOU THINK IT IS
GǪBUT THERE ARE STILL TIERS IN EVE! To use an example, You have the Omen which is an Amarr T1 cruiser, the Navy Omen which is an all-around better version, the Zealot which is a T2 version of the Omen
(continued)
T1/T2 = Tech 1/Tech 2
Tech levels are not the same as tiers.
The Navy Omen is an all around better version of the Omen (although it slower and has one less upgrade hardpoint) because it's the faction version of the Omen. It's still a T1 ship.
The Zealot being a T2 version of the Omen means that it's a specialized version of the Omen.
A lot of its stats are slightly better, but it's also slower, has lower shields, almost half the cargo capacity, one less upgrade hard point, and no drone bay. |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14398
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 03:39:00 -
[83] - Quote
Vell0cet wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Still waiting on an answer to my previous conundrum though. An ISK efficiency stat would be one reason. The same player with infinite ISK that enjoys padding his K/D with nonstop PRO gear would likely have some very ugly ISK efficiency numbers. Players in EVE with billions of ISK don't run golems fitted like the killmail you linked for the very same reason: it's embarrassing as hell.
Eve corp is making the infinite isk happen.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
|
Autoaim Bot514
The Hetairoi
97
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 03:43:00 -
[84] - Quote
Soldner VonKuechle wrote:Autoaim Bot514 wrote:Soldner VonKuechle wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:Autoaim Bot514 wrote:
No, it'd work just fine. Itll be easier to add stuff after tiericide.
Exactly, not sure why this is so hard to grasp... Variety is already dead so what harm could it do right? Having 3 suits that are incrementally better is not variety. Lol do you use any of them besides proto to fight/stomp and militia/bpo for isk? I know I don't. Anyone says otherwise is probably a liar.
New Players
Without tiericide: I can only skill one suit to proto, or skill many suits to standard and be meh
With tiericide: I can skill many suits, and be competitive, even if I am not as powerful. |
Vell0cet
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Squad.
1491
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 03:44:00 -
[85] - Quote
@Leither Yiltron Thanks for the detailed and articulate response.
Leither Yiltron wrote:Saying that what people are asking for is wrong because they want something different is bonkers.
IGÇÖm not sure where you think I made this argument, because I agree that is a bad line of reasoning. The purpose of this section was to preempt the argument IGÇÖve heard made: tiericide worked well in EVE and was loved by all, ergo it will be equally as fantastic in DUST. This is equally as bonkers since the concept of tiericide are very different (as we both seem to agree).
I agree that the power curve and the ISK cost for that power curve should change. As far as ways to reduce the power gap, one option is to simply give all suits 1 extra slot (at all tiers) and a bit more CPU/PG to fill it. This would asymmetrically buff the lower tiers as theyGÇÖre getting a larger relative increase in their power, while still maintaining some reasonable improvements per tier. Going from 3 slots to 4 is a much bigger buff (+33% more slot space) than going from 5 slots to 6 (+20% slot space). Also, I mentioned IGÇÖd like to see the cost of PRO suits increase significantly, while STD decrease. So I donGÇÖt have a problem with tweaking the utility/cost curves as you put it.
Furthermore I acknowledged the idea of unlocking all suit tiers at level 1 in the skill. This creates the AUR problem mentioned, but would still allow for players to reduce the gap to some extent, while maintaining the integrity of the risk vs. ISK mechanism.
Leither Yiltron wrote:AUR gear is useless when your game doesn't retain players for long enough to convert them into paying customersGǪ
I completely agree. ThatGÇÖs why we need a solid NPE. I wrote a lot about how this should change. Tiericide doesnGÇÖt fix the NPE, and even if AUR gear is only 20% of CCPGÇÖs revenue stream, do you really think it would be healthy for CCP to have to shrink their development team by 20%? I think they need every nickel they can scrape together right now.
Leither Yiltron wrote:Saying that improving the tutorial alone will solve issues with the NPE in the face of the current UC ratio for suit tiers
I never said this. Improving the tutorial is an important component of the solution, but I also went into detail about several other ways to improve the NPE. Of particular relevance is the 2nd tier academy concept I outlined. I think this is a CRITICAL component to a successful NPE and will do much more for player retention than tiericide could. The fact that other games have better retention canGÇÖt be laid on tiered gear. There are many reasons for the bad NPE which is why I wrote quite a bit about the things that all need to change. I firmly believe that once a player has invested the time and effort to cap out of the extended academy they will be much more likely to stick around. As this happens, we will have a larger player base and matchmaking will become increasingly more effective.
Leither Yiltron wrote:This is in something like the top 3 on the list of ways to communicate ineffectively.
I was being cheeky.
Best PvE idea ever!
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Faquira Bleuetta
Fatal Absolution
Dirt Nap Squad.
363
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Posted - 2014.04.29 03:51:00 -
[86] - Quote
Godin Thekiller wrote:1: tech levels aren't the same as tiers. and by saying what you just said, you made the tier system sound even worse; we have both the tech levels, which gets better as you go up, and then there is tiers, which gets better as you go up, so a PROTO tech 2 (say a Assault), is much more superior than a STD medium. This just closes the gap. Also, although it is true that for the same role, a tech 2 is better than a tech 1, that doesn't mean that it's overall better.
2: Your solutions for thing could just as easily go a opposite way and be actually good. For instance, your idea with AUR things. look at League of Legends. You can buy the same legend with a different skins. People Do that. A lot. All CCP has to do is make a lot of neat skins, or even sell us the ability to make our own skins, which they could turn into BPO's. Speaking of BPO's, all they would have to do is turn the BPO's into whatever the original item was equivalent (say the Dragonfly Scout G-I into the Dragonfly Scout G-whatever), and then turn it into a EVE style BPO, where we would just buy the materials off the market, put it into a production line, and make the items.
3: Although you're right about the last two points, they don't cover the full effect of why a lot of people, including most if not all of the current CPM doesn't like it. I can't speak for everyone, but I'll explain why both of those are not completely right:
For the NPE one, you discuss PROTO stomping. PROTO stomping doesn't have to be just against noobs. say one guy doesn't feel like using PROTO gear or is saving up because he doesn't have a ISK farm. Then comes the douche who only runs PROTO gear. They face off, and even though the guy in the STD gear might be better, he lost due to the worse gear. That is not fair, and shouldn't happen. Under a tiercide dust, the guy might have won.
For the economy one, as I said, the ISK farm people won't give a single ****. They got ISK to burn, so losing a truck load or two in a match doesn't matter to them, as they know they will never run out.
gay -1 |
Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
8155
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Posted - 2014.04.29 04:19:00 -
[87] - Quote
To clarify, it is true that tiers are not similar to tech levels. In Eve Online, a tier is represented by the skill level needed to operate a ship.
Looking back at Eve Online (pre-tieracide), Mining Barges were Tech 1 while Exhumers were Tech 2 (or Exhumers=MiningBarges+1). Mining Barges use to come in 3 separate tiers. tier 1 was the Procurer, with tier 2 being the Retriever and tier 3 being the Covetor. Exhumers had the Skiff, Mackinaw and Hulk in the same tiers respectively within their own tech level.
So if you had trained up Mining Barges to Level 3, you were able to operate the tier 3 mining barge. The same goes for the Exhumers.
Nowadays, all Mining Barges and Exhumers are at tier 1 but the Exhumers require more skill investment than the Mining Barges to operate. So it's still a sort of tiered system somewhere in there but they are sidegrades rather than upgrades to the Mining Barges. The Noctis, Orca, and Rorqual however are tiered to each other due to the ORE Industrial Skill Book but they are completely separate from each other in terms of class with the Noctis being a dedicated salvager, Orca as the Industrial Command Ship and the Rorqual being the Capital Industrial Ship.
I hope I didn't confuse anyone further with this. If so, I will let you take one good stab at me. XD
Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer
Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14399
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Posted - 2014.04.29 04:20:00 -
[88] - Quote
Vell0cet wrote:
NOT WHAT YOU THINK IT IS
GǪBUT THERE ARE STILL TIERS IN EVE! To use an example, You have the Omen which is an Amarr T1 cruiser, the Navy Omen which is an all-around better version, the Zealot which is a T2 version of the Omen
(continued)
The major difference between a Omen and Omen Navy Variant
Omen
10% Reduction to Medium Turret Activation
5% Medium Turret RoF
Omen Navy
10% medium Energy Turret damage
10% Medium Energy Turret Optimal
Hmm...
One's a Sniper the other is a Brawler for breaking front lines.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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Vrain Matari
Mikramurka Shock Troop
Minmatar Republic
2044
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Posted - 2014.04.29 04:25:00 -
[89] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Vell0cet wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Still waiting on an answer to my previous conundrum though. An ISK efficiency stat would be one reason. The same player with infinite ISK that enjoys padding his K/D with nonstop PRO gear would likely have some very ugly ISK efficiency numbers. Players in EVE with billions of ISK don't run golems fitted like the killmail you linked for the very same reason: it's embarrassing as hell. Eve corp is making the infinite isk happen.
This is very true, insanely wealthy EVE sugar dadies.
But presumably, the EVE corp wants something that they are using us to get and we, ofc, are fighting to make ISK. So a full campaign in proto gear is going to cost our employers a pretty penny, and will push back by a considerable amount the date by which their ROI is positive.
Corps that can produce results without wall-to-wall protospam will be in very high demand.
And as far as players running exclusively proto in you infinite everything scenario, yes there will be proto Assaults, Proto Logis, Proto Sentinels, Proto Commandos, Proto Scouts. With an incredible variety of fittings adapted to an incredible variety of roles.
I support SP rollover.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14399
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Posted - 2014.04.29 04:35:00 -
[90] - Quote
Or the harsh reality
Eve corp doesn't give a flying eff because if experience has taught them anything is that utterly crushing your opponent massively does save isk in the end. Losing a single fight can unravel an entire alliance and would rather not risk it and by doing so would embolden the enemy.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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Autoaim Bot514
The Hetairoi
99
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Posted - 2014.04.29 04:38:00 -
[91] - Quote
Vrain Matari wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Vell0cet wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Still waiting on an answer to my previous conundrum though. An ISK efficiency stat would be one reason. The same player with infinite ISK that enjoys padding his K/D with nonstop PRO gear would likely have some very ugly ISK efficiency numbers. Players in EVE with billions of ISK don't run golems fitted like the killmail you linked for the very same reason: it's embarrassing as hell. Eve corp is making the infinite isk happen. This is very true, insanely wealthy EVE sugar dadies. But presumably, the EVE corp wants something that they are using us to get and we, ofc, are fighting to make ISK. So a full campaign in proto gear is going to cost our employers a pretty penny, and will push back by a considerable amount the date by which their ROI is positive. Corps that can produce results without wall-to-wall protospam will be in very high demand. And as far as players running exclusively proto in you infinite everything scenario, yes there will be proto Assaults, Proto Logis, Proto Sentinels, Proto Commandos, Proto Scouts. With an incredible variety of fittings adapted to an incredible variety of roles.
I can make 50 million in eve in a few minutes. Losing 150 proto suits is nothing to an eve corp. |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14400
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 04:42:00 -
[92] - Quote
Autoaim Bot514 wrote:Vrain Matari wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Vell0cet wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Still waiting on an answer to my previous conundrum though. An ISK efficiency stat would be one reason. The same player with infinite ISK that enjoys padding his K/D with nonstop PRO gear would likely have some very ugly ISK efficiency numbers. Players in EVE with billions of ISK don't run golems fitted like the killmail you linked for the very same reason: it's embarrassing as hell. Eve corp is making the infinite isk happen. This is very true, insanely wealthy EVE sugar dadies. But presumably, the EVE corp wants something that they are using us to get and we, ofc, are fighting to make ISK. So a full campaign in proto gear is going to cost our employers a pretty penny, and will push back by a considerable amount the date by which their ROI is positive. Corps that can produce results without wall-to-wall protospam will be in very high demand. And as far as players running exclusively proto in you infinite everything scenario, yes there will be proto Assaults, Proto Logis, Proto Sentinels, Proto Commandos, Proto Scouts. With an incredible variety of fittings adapted to an incredible variety of roles. I can make 50 million in eve in a few minutes. Losing 150 proto suits is nothing to an eve corp.
Annotation this is the work of a single player, even at a 10 to 1 trade ratio thats 5 million isk enough for 10 protos with change.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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Vell0cet
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Squad.
1495
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Posted - 2014.04.29 04:42:00 -
[93] - Quote
Autoaim Bot514 wrote:Vrain Matari wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Vell0cet wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Still waiting on an answer to my previous conundrum though. An ISK efficiency stat would be one reason. The same player with infinite ISK that enjoys padding his K/D with nonstop PRO gear would likely have some very ugly ISK efficiency numbers. Players in EVE with billions of ISK don't run golems fitted like the killmail you linked for the very same reason: it's embarrassing as hell. Eve corp is making the infinite isk happen. This is very true, insanely wealthy EVE sugar dadies. But presumably, the EVE corp wants something that they are using us to get and we, ofc, are fighting to make ISK. So a full campaign in proto gear is going to cost our employers a pretty penny, and will push back by a considerable amount the date by which their ROI is positive. Corps that can produce results without wall-to-wall protospam will be in very high demand. And as far as players running exclusively proto in you infinite everything scenario, yes there will be proto Assaults, Proto Logis, Proto Sentinels, Proto Commandos, Proto Scouts. With an incredible variety of fittings adapted to an incredible variety of roles. I can make 50 million in eve in a few minutes. Losing 150 proto suits is nothing to an eve corp.
There is certainly an exchange rate to factor in, remember. I believe the player-run exchanges were operating around 10:1 ratio. Making 500 mill in EVE would require a significant amount of time.
Best PvE idea ever!
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14400
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Posted - 2014.04.29 04:47:00 -
[94] - Quote
Vell0cet wrote:
There is certainly an exchange rate to factor in, remember. I believe the player-run exchanges were operating around 10:1 ratio. Making 500 mill in EVE would require a significant amount of time.
not really... noob with no skills can earn that in 2 weeks.
Imagine what well oiled wallet mongers make...
BTW economical warfare in eve is freakishly scary; do not get involved in one.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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Autoaim Bot514
The Hetairoi
99
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Posted - 2014.04.29 04:54:00 -
[95] - Quote
Vell0cet wrote:
There is certainly an exchange rate to factor in, remember. I believe the player-run exchanges were operating around 10:1 ratio. Making 500 mill in EVE would require a significant amount of time.
It takes about 5 hours of pve in eve to make that in null sec. And that's not including moon goo isk printers. Money is no object to eve players even when you consider the conversion rate. Eve curious regularly throw hundreds of 1.5 billion isk carriers into fights just to measure epeens.
Get a clue.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14400
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 04:59:00 -
[96] - Quote
Another fantasy to break is how cheap your suits would be if they where player provided.
we're talking 10 isk, not 10 hundred, 10 thousand or million; just 10 a pop. Unpopular ones will dip further and may become refine fodder; the specialists would likely gain most popularity capping at 1k a piece.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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Lynn Beck
Wake N' Bake Inc
Top Men.
1577
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Posted - 2014.04.29 05:02:00 -
[97] - Quote
Modules need tiericided, and weapons need tiericided.
We need to have lv1 unlock the 'Assault Rifle', with lv3 unlocking variants. These variants would have a straight trade-off of DPS-range: E.g. Assault Rifle: 34 Dmg, 750 RoF, 60 clip. 45 optimal, 60 effective.
AR 2(unlocked at lv3) 36 Dmg, 750 RoF, 60 clipsize. 40 optimal, 60 effective.
AR 3(still lv3) 60 dmg, 400 RoF, 48 Clip. 55 optimal, 70 effective.
The lv5 AR would grant a customizable(?) variant, where we can add rigs to the gun.
Modules should be 'tiericided' but stil have tiers, allow me to explain:
Basic shiel extender- 66 HP, 15% penalty.
Complex shield extender- 66 HP, 5% penalty.
In all actuality these should be buffed, such that we aren't required to stack HP mods- my proposal is make Light extenders that are identical to now, and add Heavy Extenders, which grant 132 HP, at a 10% proto penalty.
Scanning mods would either stay identical to now, or would have the same performance across tiers, only decreasing in fitting cost as you progress.
Biotics i am unsure of.
General John Ripper
Like ALL the things!!!
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Vrain Matari
Mikramurka Shock Troop
Minmatar Republic
2045
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Posted - 2014.04.29 05:42:00 -
[98] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Another fantasy to break is how cheap your suits would be if they where player provided.
we're talking 10 isk, not 10 hundred, 10 thousand or million; just 10 a pop. Unpopular ones will dip further and may become refine fodder; the specialists would likely gain most popularity capping at 1k a piece.
And here i thought the refine value if a suit would be determined by it's mineral inputs.
Maybe you got a nice perpetual motion machine you wanna try and sell us while you're at it?
I support SP rollover.
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Lynn Beck
Wake N' Bake Inc
Top Men.
1577
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 05:57:00 -
[99] - Quote
Vrain Matari wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Another fantasy to break is how cheap your suits would be if they where player provided.
we're talking 10 isk, not 10 hundred, 10 thousand or million; just 10 a pop. Unpopular ones will dip further and may become refine fodder; the specialists would likely gain most popularity capping at 1k a piece. And here i thought the refine value if a suit would be determined by it's mineral inputs. Maybe you got a nice perpetual motion machine you wanna try and sell us while you're at it?
Suppliers always keep a stock of an item, if an item becomes too unpopular, the supplier/producer will refine the spares to make room for the new popular item.
General John Ripper
Like ALL the things!!!
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Teilka Darkmist
303
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Posted - 2014.04.29 06:00:00 -
[100] - Quote
Vrain Matari wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Another fantasy to break is how cheap your suits would be if they where player provided.
we're talking 10 isk, not 10 hundred, 10 thousand or million; just 10 a pop. Unpopular ones will dip further and may become refine fodder; the specialists would likely gain most popularity capping at 1k a piece. And here i thought the refine value if a suit would be determined by it's mineral inputs. Maybe you got a nice perpetual motion machine you wanna try and sell us while you're at it?
When you look at the fairly small mineral amounts a frigate takes, and realise that it costs 100-200 thousand isk for a T1 hull, then scale down to a single dropsuit, Iron Wolf Saber's estimate of how little they'd cost may actually be on the high side. Most likely, a Blueprint in eve wouldn't be able to make less than 100 or possibly 1000 (or maybe more) dropsuits due to the small mineral costs per suit.
Woman.
Sniper, but from near the opponent's redline more often than not.
Not a KDR Worshipper.
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ZDub 303
TeamPlayers
Dirt Nap Squad.
2607
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Posted - 2014.04.29 06:16:00 -
[101] - Quote
Teilka Darkmist wrote:Vrain Matari wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Another fantasy to break is how cheap your suits would be if they where player provided.
we're talking 10 isk, not 10 hundred, 10 thousand or million; just 10 a pop. Unpopular ones will dip further and may become refine fodder; the specialists would likely gain most popularity capping at 1k a piece. And here i thought the refine value if a suit would be determined by it's mineral inputs. Maybe you got a nice perpetual motion machine you wanna try and sell us while you're at it? When you look at the fairly small mineral amounts a frigate takes, and realise that it costs 100-200 thousand isk for a T1 hull, then scale down to a single dropsuit, Iron Wolf Saber's estimate of how little they'd cost may actually be on the high side. Most likely, a Blueprint in eve wouldn't be able to make less than 100 or possibly 1000 (or maybe more) dropsuits due to the small mineral costs per suit.
What kind of minerals are dropsuits made from though? Keeping in mind that tritanium is not stable in atmospheric conditions.
These dropsuits could be made of pure morphite or zydrine for all we know... that would certainly cost a pretty penny... |
Teilka Darkmist
306
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 06:32:00 -
[102] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:Teilka Darkmist wrote:Vrain Matari wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Another fantasy to break is how cheap your suits would be if they where player provided.
we're talking 10 isk, not 10 hundred, 10 thousand or million; just 10 a pop. Unpopular ones will dip further and may become refine fodder; the specialists would likely gain most popularity capping at 1k a piece. And here i thought the refine value if a suit would be determined by it's mineral inputs. Maybe you got a nice perpetual motion machine you wanna try and sell us while you're at it? When you look at the fairly small mineral amounts a frigate takes, and realise that it costs 100-200 thousand isk for a T1 hull, then scale down to a single dropsuit, Iron Wolf Saber's estimate of how little they'd cost may actually be on the high side. Most likely, a Blueprint in eve wouldn't be able to make less than 100 or possibly 1000 (or maybe more) dropsuits due to the small mineral costs per suit. What kind of minerals are dropsuits made from though? Keeping in mind that tritanium is not stable in atmospheric conditions. These dropsuits could be made of pure morphite or zydrine for all we know... that would certainly cost a pretty penny...
Not in the quantities we're talking. Morphite is currently selling at roughly 5000 isk per unit and Zydrine at around 500 isk per unit (and these are eve isk, not dust isk) a T1 frigate takes roughly 2-20 zydrine and no Morphite. Morphite starts getting used for T2 ships and a T2 frigate doesn't take more than about 50 units of Morphite. Scale that down to dropsuits and one dropsuit would take a small fraction of a single unit of each. Even if it was pure Morphite, A dropsuit would not cost more than a couple of isk.
Woman.
Sniper, but from near the opponent's redline more often than not.
Not a KDR Worshipper.
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ZDub 303
TeamPlayers
Dirt Nap Squad.
2607
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 06:37:00 -
[103] - Quote
Teilka Darkmist wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:Teilka Darkmist wrote:Vrain Matari wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Another fantasy to break is how cheap your suits would be if they where player provided.
we're talking 10 isk, not 10 hundred, 10 thousand or million; just 10 a pop. Unpopular ones will dip further and may become refine fodder; the specialists would likely gain most popularity capping at 1k a piece. And here i thought the refine value if a suit would be determined by it's mineral inputs. Maybe you got a nice perpetual motion machine you wanna try and sell us while you're at it? When you look at the fairly small mineral amounts a frigate takes, and realise that it costs 100-200 thousand isk for a T1 hull, then scale down to a single dropsuit, Iron Wolf Saber's estimate of how little they'd cost may actually be on the high side. Most likely, a Blueprint in eve wouldn't be able to make less than 100 or possibly 1000 (or maybe more) dropsuits due to the small mineral costs per suit. What kind of minerals are dropsuits made from though? Keeping in mind that tritanium is not stable in atmospheric conditions. These dropsuits could be made of pure morphite or zydrine for all we know... that would certainly cost a pretty penny... Not in the quantities we're talking. Morphite is currently selling at roughly 5000 isk per unit and Zydrine at around 500 isk per unit (and these are eve isk, not dust isk) a T1 frigate takes roughly 2-20 zydrine and no Morphite. Morphite starts getting used for T2 ships and a T2 frigate doesn't take more than about 50 units of Morphite. Scale that down to dropsuits and one dropsuit would take a small fraction of a single unit of each. Even if it was pure Morphite, A dropsuit would not cost more than a couple of isk.
Even though the frigate uses 50 morphite, it's also using hundreds of thousands of units of trit and pyerite, etc.
if a dropsuit took 50 units of morphite per suit, how long before the whole market for morphite crashes?
Ideally though we would use a new mineral, maybe something obtain only through eve dust interaction. |
Teilka Darkmist
306
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Posted - 2014.04.29 07:33:00 -
[104] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:Teilka Darkmist wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:Teilka Darkmist wrote:Vrain Matari wrote:
And here i thought the refine value if a suit would be determined by it's mineral inputs.
Maybe you got a nice perpetual motion machine you wanna try and sell us while you're at it?
When you look at the fairly small mineral amounts a frigate takes, and realise that it costs 100-200 thousand isk for a T1 hull, then scale down to a single dropsuit, Iron Wolf Saber's estimate of how little they'd cost may actually be on the high side. Most likely, a Blueprint in eve wouldn't be able to make less than 100 or possibly 1000 (or maybe more) dropsuits due to the small mineral costs per suit. What kind of minerals are dropsuits made from though? Keeping in mind that tritanium is not stable in atmospheric conditions. These dropsuits could be made of pure morphite or zydrine for all we know... that would certainly cost a pretty penny... Not in the quantities we're talking. Morphite is currently selling at roughly 5000 isk per unit and Zydrine at around 500 isk per unit (and these are eve isk, not dust isk) a T1 frigate takes roughly 2-20 zydrine and no Morphite. Morphite starts getting used for T2 ships and a T2 frigate doesn't take more than about 50 units of Morphite. Scale that down to dropsuits and one dropsuit would take a small fraction of a single unit of each. Even if it was pure Morphite, A dropsuit would not cost more than a couple of isk. Even though the frigate uses 50 morphite, it's also using hundreds of thousands of units of trit and pyerite, etc. if a dropsuit took 50 units of morphite per suit, how long before the whole market for morphite crashes? Ideally though we would use a new mineral, maybe something obtain only through eve dust interaction.
All I'm saying is that whatever minerals dropsuits use, the mineral cost of a single dropsuit will be at most in the tens of isk for an eve player. And since it's unlikely that CCP are going to add manufacturing to Dust, if/when dropsuits become player creatable, it will be eve industrialists making them. Then prices of suits, and all other gear, will plummet and the dust players who already have billions of isk will essentially have an unlimited supply of protos, even if isk rewards are removed from the game entirely.
Woman.
Sniper, but from near the opponent's redline more often than not.
Not a KDR Worshipper.
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Yan Darn
Science For Death
720
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Posted - 2014.04.29 08:08:00 -
[105] - Quote
This is a good thread with lots of interesting ideas, but there is too much strawman - Tiercide is not a magic bullet, it is just one of many things that would likely need doing to make this game less boring.
There are lots of things that need attention in DUST - while Tiercide seems out of place now with limited content and game options, unless this game wants to stay a grindy lobby shooter (aka COD with levels), then the current tier system causes unecessary disruption - not least for CCPs balancing.
Current situation for me: 25mil+SP, 250mil ISK (no PC/Corp ISK). I've only ever had point in Gal Scout.
I have two fits for my proto scout one Ewar based one Speed Based. Both mostly proto everything (Ironically - It is less fitting intensive to brick tank a scout than speed tank a scout but whatever...).
I've maxed out relavent mods and that's it. Not a lot I can do. No real reason to use those lower suits now - might as well pretend they don't exist.
Imagined Tiercide Situaition [DISCLAIMER: Numbers kinda pulled out of my arse and this is just one example/interpretation].
I spent my first 15milSP or so improving my 'basic' scout frame (similar to proto scout - no cloak bonus). I invested ewar skills and speed skills (so I use Higher level Kin Cats etc.) I like both - now I'm looking at 't2' Variants. They are like x10 the ISK, but:
One has great sensor range/precision and has a bonus to fitting cloaks! It has less EHP and limited PG/CPU (So I kinda have to use that second slot for cloaks anyway) - but it's ok, I'm specialising.
The other has better speed/stamina and bonus to fitting 'section 8 style turbo sprint device', it sacrifices some sensor range and precision and again some fitting over the basic scout - but it's ok, it's specialised.
Id have reason to use all three, with ISK being the least decisive factor. My SP will always give my 'basic' Scout an advantage over new players.
It's just that new player won't be thinking 'so in this game I can look forward to doing exactly what I'm doing now...just better...which is good for...being better than the new players after me...?'
The Ghost of Bravo
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14409
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 08:15:00 -
[106] - Quote
Lynn Beck wrote:Vrain Matari wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Another fantasy to break is how cheap your suits would be if they where player provided.
we're talking 10 isk, not 10 hundred, 10 thousand or million; just 10 a pop. Unpopular ones will dip further and may become refine fodder; the specialists would likely gain most popularity capping at 1k a piece. And here i thought the refine value if a suit would be determined by it's mineral inputs. Maybe you got a nice perpetual motion machine you wanna try and sell us while you're at it? Suppliers always keep a stock of an item, if an item becomes too unpopular, the supplier/producer will refine the spares to make room for the new popular item.
Stoll doesnt help auto targeters...
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
|
Spectral Clone
Dust2Dust.
Top Men.
2468
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 08:19:00 -
[107] - Quote
First step is to remove the high SP requirements and prices for proto dropsuits TBH. Module costs should be increased however to make the cost for current proto users normalized to the price we can see today (100k-200k ISK per fully fit suit).
I hope this kind of solution is presented at fanfest.
HTFU Gë£ Live with CCP´s mistakes.
"I tried so hard and got so far.... but in the end it doesnt even matter."
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Luk Manag
of Terror
TRE GAFFEL
427
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Posted - 2014.04.29 11:54:00 -
[108] - Quote
Spectral Clone wrote:First step is to remove the high SP requirements and prices for proto dropsuits TBH. Module costs should be increased however to make the cost for current proto users normalized to the price we can see today (100k-200k ISK per fully fit suit).
I hope this kind of solution is presented at fanfest (in the progression presentation).
This is exactly the kind of 'idea' that would kill the player base.
IWS wants to know how Eve sponsored matches will be, with nearly unlimited ISK, and I will tell you...not that much different. The reason to wear standard will be ISK or SP limitations, with some level of pride/indignation factor that discourages wasteful or excessive spending. It's hard to know how much Eve isk will make it to Dust, it doesn't matter that much in FW. I have many thousands of proto suits, about 4 thousand, and I still worry about going isk negative.
There will be bullets. ACR+SMG [CEO of Terror]
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Takahiro Kashuken
Red Star.
EoN.
3504
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Posted - 2014.04.29 12:03:00 -
[109] - Quote
OP is spot on
Tiercide is **** for vehicles tbh |
Luk Manag
of Terror
TRE GAFFEL
427
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Posted - 2014.04.29 12:12:00 -
[110] - Quote
Spectral Clone wrote:First step is to remove the high SP requirements and prices for proto dropsuits TBH. Module costs should be increased however to make the cost for current proto users normalized to the price we can see today (100k-200k ISK per fully fit suit).
I hope this kind of solution is presented at fanfest (in the progression presentation).
Ok, well, maybe not 'kill' the player base, but it would be lame. We would have to look at the HP values to guess if it was a n00b, instead of looking for MLT and STD. Further, this idea wouldn't solve any problems. We would still have people who were rich in complex armor plates.
There will be bullets. ACR+SMG [CEO of Terror]
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Luk Manag
of Terror
TRE GAFFEL
427
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Posted - 2014.04.29 12:15:00 -
[111] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Lynn Beck wrote:Vrain Matari wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Another fantasy to break is how cheap your suits would be if they where player provided.
we're talking 10 isk, not 10 hundred, 10 thousand or million; just 10 a pop. Unpopular ones will dip further and may become refine fodder; the specialists would likely gain most popularity capping at 1k a piece. And here i thought the refine value if a suit would be determined by it's mineral inputs. Maybe you got a nice perpetual motion machine you wanna try and sell us while you're at it? Suppliers always keep a stock of an item, if an item becomes too unpopular, the supplier/producer will refine the spares to make room for the new popular item. Still doesnt help auto targeters...
Auto targeters are for ISK farming PvE carebears...we don't lose many of our Golems.
There will be bullets. ACR+SMG [CEO of Terror]
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Luk Manag
of Terror
TRE GAFFEL
427
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Posted - 2014.04.29 12:28:00 -
[112] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Or the harsh reality
Eve corp doesn't give a flying eff because if experience has taught them anything is that utterly crushing your opponent massively does save isk in the end. Losing a single fight can unravel an entire alliance and would rather not risk it and by doing so would embolden the enemy.
Don't forget the Eve vets who might have 3 accounts and who might have started saving ISK when Dust was first announced...that person may have renamed his Orca "Dust Fund".
There will be bullets. ACR+SMG [CEO of Terror]
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KalOfTheRathi
Nec Tributis
1258
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Posted - 2014.04.29 12:30:00 -
[113] - Quote
Vell0cet wrote:NOT WHAT YOU THINK IT IS
There is no good solution to the BPO dilemma that tiericide would create.
There Is No Matchmaking in Dust (tm) nor has there been and Tiericide will not accomplish it either.
However, silver bullets and blue sky dreaming can accomplish ... well, nothing actually. Although that has never stopped CCP/Shanghai from going down bizarre paths nor CCP from promising features in Dust that are still not delivered years later.
Fanfest is nearly upon us so expect more undelivered dreams, silver bullets that will not fire (like rail gun turrets) and nothing mentioned at all about fixing bugs or making Dust more stable.
And so it goes.
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Korvin Lomont
United Pwnage Service
RISE of LEGION
942
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Posted - 2014.04.29 12:32:00 -
[114] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Let me throw a curveball at you then.
You have infinite isk and SP
Justify not using prototype gear. Assuming the economy is in full swing and PC gets fixed, ISK. ISK will justify not using pro gear like we see now. Imagine paying ten million ISK for a proto setup. Edit: one more thing. If the economy and of is fixed, no one will have infinite ISK. That doesn't answer the hypothetical which is regardless a highly possible situation without the artificiality. Infinite isk and more SP than that suit can ever use in any type of situation Justify not using prototype. Then no one can justify not using proto in that situation. This is why fixing PC is important first and foremost to address the infinite ISK problem in addition to dealing with alt-recycling exploiters.
Fixing PC solves nothing in that regard by now. CCP let this crap happen for too long now the damage is already done. The only way to fix this would be to a) remove any form of passive ISK income and b) remove all that ISK from dust.
While a) may be possible for CCP they surely won't do b).
So the billions and more of ISK are still there and will stay there for quite some time. Even if CCP would raise proto gear to astronomical prices the corps that farmed HUGE amounts of isk would still be able to run Proto for ages but at the same time the average player would not be able to afford a single death in proto. Sio this schange would make thing even worse for a long time.
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Luk Manag
of Terror
TRE GAFFEL
427
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Posted - 2014.04.29 14:03:00 -
[115] - Quote
Tiericide is a worthless idea in all of it's forms, with the dubious goal of making it easier on new players (it can't), or gifting the 'gifted' FPS elite skilled players an opportunity to win without all the complicated issues associated with resource management or SP grinding *sarcasm. IWS wants to promote unique roles instead of actually improving stats for SP and ISK investment. That's bad. Nobody wants to grind SP just to unlock new roles, like AV or Sniper. The end result will be no different than what we have now in terms of n00bs getting stomped. Cheap and easy may work at attracting more CoD n00bs, but the long term health of Dust would be compromised.
CCP could tie MERC asset production to PI. A new resource chain and dropsuit fabrication facility, along with tight ISK exchange control (like it is now), could preserve some semblance of resource scarcity in Dust 514. The real shakeup will come some day, and I doubt the unified market transition will be smooth, and I expect price and supply volatility, so stock up while you can.
There will be bullets. ACR+SMG [CEO of Terror]
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Luk Manag
of Terror
TRE GAFFEL
427
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Posted - 2014.04.29 17:53:00 -
[116] - Quote
KalOfTheRathi wrote:Vell0cet wrote:NOT WHAT YOU THINK IT IS
There is no good solution to the BPO dilemma that tiericide would create.
There Is No Matchmaking in Dust (tm) nor has there been and Tiericide will not accomplish it either. However, silver bullets and blue sky dreaming can accomplish ... well, nothing actually. Although that has never stopped CCP/Shanghai from going down bizarre paths nor CCP from promising features in Dust that are still not delivered years later. Fanfest is nearly upon us so expect more undelivered dreams, silver bullets that will not fire (like rail gun turrets) and nothing mentioned at all about fixing bugs or making Dust more stable.
I know you have been working on your grumpy persona, but fixing bugs and improving the experience is always important, and goes without saying.
There will be bullets. ACR+SMG [CEO of Terror]
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Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui
The Containment Unit
668
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Posted - 2014.04.29 21:06:00 -
[117] - Quote
Takahiro Kashuken wrote:OP is spot on
Tiercide is **** for vehicles tbh
IKR
Just the fact that there as so many limitations now , not that is was so great before because Anti-vehicle dominated ( Sorry , since this has become a Eve discussion .. basically ) but with some thought what was then .. could have been now but with more balance , they didn't have to break the vehicle's down so much as seeing that balance wasn't that far off , from looking at how it is now .. that with a few adjustments it would have been perfect .
SP would have mattered because they actually meant something not just unlocking an item . I believe that was the most efficient skill tree then , even more than the actual drop suits , the vehicle skill tree was something to behold and it gave some of the best performance values .
I didn't feel like I wasted a SP besides the fact that some of the mods like the shield rechargers didn't preform well . There were a few mods that some just didn't use but there were so many choices that it was just great and they wouldn't have had to do much but fix some of the mods , balance out the anti-vehicle weapon's and bring back the PRO vehicle's . The mechanic's were off on some of the mods and if they could have made adjustments on the mods , you had different turrets that performed different functions ...  .. oh it was beautiful .
I miss that so much and this change was there actual chance to implement tiericide into the vehicle's and I just can't like it even though I specked back into vehicle's . Looking at the numbers ( what so many like to throw around ) I didn't like it and knew there were going to be some complaints and not because that's the nature of the community .
I lost some respect there just by the way , like the infantry refund .. that was handled .
Stop asking for tiercide , your killing variety and the fun of this game at the same dam time .
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Marc Rime
381
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Posted - 2014.04.29 22:24:00 -
[118] - Quote
I approve of this thread. |
Godin Thekiller
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2102
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Posted - 2014.04.29 22:37:00 -
[119] - Quote
Faquira Bleuetta wrote:Godin Thekiller wrote:1: tech levels aren't the same as tiers. and by saying what you just said, you made the tier system sound even worse; we have both the tech levels, which gets better as you go up, and then there is tiers, which gets better as you go up, so a PROTO tech 2 (say a Assault), is much more superior than a STD medium. This just closes the gap. Also, although it is true that for the same role, a tech 2 is better than a tech 1, that doesn't mean that it's overall better.
2: Your solutions for thing could just as easily go a opposite way and be actually good. For instance, your idea with AUR things. look at League of Legends. You can buy the same legend with a different skins. People Do that. A lot. All CCP has to do is make a lot of neat skins, or even sell us the ability to make our own skins, which they could turn into BPO's. Speaking of BPO's, all they would have to do is turn the BPO's into whatever the original item was equivalent (say the Dragonfly Scout G-I into the Dragonfly Scout G-whatever), and then turn it into a EVE style BPO, where we would just buy the materials off the market, put it into a production line, and make the items.
3: Although you're right about the last two points, they don't cover the full effect of why a lot of people, including most if not all of the current CPM doesn't like it. I can't speak for everyone, but I'll explain why both of those are not completely right:
For the NPE one, you discuss PROTO stomping. PROTO stomping doesn't have to be just against noobs. say one guy doesn't feel like using PROTO gear or is saving up because he doesn't have a ISK farm. Then comes the douche who only runs PROTO gear. They face off, and even though the guy in the STD gear might be better, he lost due to the worse gear. That is not fair, and shouldn't happen. Under a tiercide dust, the guy might have won.
For the economy one, as I said, the ISK farm people won't give a single ****. They got ISK to burn, so losing a truck load or two in a match doesn't matter to them, as they know they will never run out.
gay -1
I dare you to made a actual argument against me. Don't be a homophobic douche.
click me
Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
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Godin Thekiller
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2104
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Posted - 2014.04.29 22:41:00 -
[120] - Quote
I have yet to see a argument to say that tiercide in whole is not needed, nor will I doubt I will ever see one.
Just to let you fools who think it doesn't work, as I said, look at one of the most successful games around, and one of the most balanced ones at the same time atm, League of Legends.
click me
Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
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Zaaeed Massani
RisingSuns
Dark Taboo
379
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Posted - 2014.04.29 22:44:00 -
[121] - Quote
Vell0cet wrote:
ISK efficiency isnGÇÖt a stat in DUST. It should be THE stat in DUST. It should be posted in the EOM screen for all to see, and it should be the first stat listed in the leaderboards. The easiest way to reduce proto stomping is to publish to the community everyoneGÇÖs average ISK value of enemy assets destroyed - ISK value of your assets lost per match. The social pressure to have a good ISK efficiency will greatly disincentives running very expensive fits and will make high K/D numbers look stupid if paired with terrible efficiency. This would be trivial to program and would make a huge impact on player behavior.
This. For the love of God, please, this.
Also, I submit that DUST 514 is currently an MMOFPS...but it has a long way to go before it's a legit MMORPG. The RPG elements of the game are nonexistent.
Hence why we desperately need PvE.
Minmatar & Gallente A.R.C. Program Instructor
/
Do you even lift?
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Captain Crutches
Nexus Marines
85
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Posted - 2014.04.29 23:22:00 -
[122] - Quote
I'll throw my hat in, having only semi-read the first 3 pages of this thread.
In response to IWS's challenge to justify not using proto if you have the ISK/SP... you can't. Higher tier gear is objectively better in every way, and that's the problem. The only reason there is "variety" in the tiers being used is because not everyone is able to run all proto all the time.
I would propose replacement of tiers with specialization and customization. Eve, for example, has several T1 cruisers for each race which you can use with only the racial cruiser skill. Each of those T1 cruisers has a role (assault, logistics, electronic warfare, etc) and the bonuses and slot layout to match. You can use those cruisers as cheaper alternatives to the T2 variants (HAC, Logi, Recon) to test the waters, see if that's something you want to specialize in, and then skill into the T2 ships you want - while still being able to use the T1 ships from the other roles.
A similar system in Dust might have, for example, several T1 medium frames, each with a matching T2 frame. You can skill into a race's medium frames and use any of the T1 suits, and then specialize into the more effective (but many times more expensive) T2 variants of your choice. Of course, that still has some semblance of tiers, but it mirrors the system in Eve which has worked well thus far, and it's something to work off of at least.
For weapons, perhaps a system of weapon upgrades and customization akin to Planetside 2. Let me buy, for example, an Assault Rifle, and then for a small additional price on top of it, add attachments like silencers, grips, and scopes. We could have several different types of each attachment with their own benefits and drawbacks. Since 1.8 I've seen a much greater diversity of weapon types being used, and that's great - but for those that would argue that tiericide would kill diversity, I invite you to look at my above response to IWS, and to consider the even greater variety that would come from different weapon "fittings" with these mods. (Obviously this would be technically quite difficult to do, but it's a thought experiment more than anything else at this stage)
So yeah. There's my .02 isk on Tiericide.
*cloaks back up*
Anti-Respec | Anti-Protostomp | Pro-Tiericide | Pro-EVE Link | Pro-CCP
Fun > Winning > KDR
Lifetime K/D 0.69, WP/D 69
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Atiim
Heaven's Lost Property
Dirt Nap Squad.
7490
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Posted - 2014.04.30 13:11:00 -
[123] - Quote
This seems to important to leave in the DUST.
Back to the top with you!
Proposed Mobile CRU Changes
-HAND
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Soldner VonKuechle
SAM-MIK
General Tso's Alliance
654
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Posted - 2014.04.30 14:25:00 -
[124] - Quote
Atiim wrote:This seems to important to leave in the DUST.
Back to the top with you!
Tiers, Tears or this discussion?
Variety is already dead; you either proto to fight/stomp or BPO to grind isk. If not, you're lying.
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Zaaeed Massani
RisingSuns
Dark Taboo
409
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Posted - 2014.04.30 14:29:00 -
[125] - Quote
Soldner VonKuechle wrote:Atiim wrote:This seems to important to leave in the DUST.
Back to the top with you! Tiers, Tears or this discussion?
All of the above?
Minmatar & Gallente A.R.C. Program Instructor
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Do you even lift?
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