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Vell0cet
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Squad.
1454
   |
Posted - 2014.04.28 20:46:00 -
[1] - Quote
NOT WHAT YOU THINK IT IS
Let me begin by explaining that the term GÇ£tiericide GÇ£is being used very differently by those advocating for it in DUST and how it was implemented in EVE. In EVE T1 ships were GÇ£tieredGÇ¥ in that you gained access to them as different levels of skill. To make this more concrete, it would be like unlocking Amarr Assault at Amarr Medium level 3 and Amarr Logistics at level 5, with the Amarr Logistics suits having better stats than the Amarr Assault. This made no sense. In EVE they GÇ£tiericidedGÇ¥ T1 ships, so all T1 Cruisers of a given race are roughly equal in their respective roles.
GǪBUT THERE ARE STILL TIERS IN EVE! To use an example, You have the Omen which is an Amarr T1 cruiser, the Navy Omen which is an all-around better version, the Zealot which is a T2 version of the Omen and thereGÇÖs the T3 Legion which can be configured to be an Omen on steroids. There is a huge power gap between an Omen and a Zealot for example. All tiericide did was make the Arbitrator, Augoror, Maller and the Omen all equivalent in power in their respective roles in the same way that a Commando and a Sentinel are roughly equivalent in their roles. Furthermore, tiers exist for modules and gear as well. There are T1 modules, T2, Faction stuff, and Deadspace/Officer modules. Using higher meta modules will give you a MASSIVE advantage over someone with lower meta fits (in EVE the fits are often much more expensive than the hull).
RISK vs. ISK
This is the mechanism that sets this game apart from every other FPS ever made and also makes it the most interesting. The premise is simple: you can buy a significant power advantage over other players by risking the loss of expensive fits and taking the chance of loosing a significant amount of ISK. This is a really interesting mechanism that puts this game above the rest. It incentivizes players to focus on survivability, avoid needless losses, fight smart and use teamwork. Fights are much more realistic because players sometimes have a lot on the line, and will go to great lengths to avoid death (just like a real soldier might). Gameplay plays out much differently in this game than in others as a result. In other games, itGÇÖs spawn, kill, die, respawn, repeat. Death has little-to-no consequence. With DUST not only is there the existence of consequences, but the player chooses the degree to how severe the consequences of death are every time they pick a suit to spawn in with. The range is from negligible consequences in free suits (just stats) to massive losses that can represent hours of playtime to recover from. It produces an emotional connection to your character, where you actually fear death, and it makes you care about survival. This is a very rich and interesting mechanic, that not only defines DUST, but distinguishes it from all other FPS games in the market. Choice, consequences, meaning: itGÇÖs the GÇ£special sauceGÇ¥ of DUST 514.
It also creates interesting incentives to use cheap gear to kill expensive suits. Not only is this an immensely satisfying way to play the game, it creates variety and produces a whole layer of ISK-efficient fittings. Despite having over 35 mill SP, I normally run STD suits with good modules; itGÇÖs fun and challenging and helps pay for those times I get angry and make poor decisions (like repeatedly loosing PRO suits trying to get revenge when IGÇÖm getting stomped).
Tiericide destroys most of the risk vs. ISK mechanic. Some variants of tiericide proposals still have some degrees of risk vs. ISK with modules still being tiered, but to a large extent, they all dramatically water-down this aspect of the game, and will fundamentally affect gameplay. People wonGÇÖt have the same adrenalin from trying to avoid death because the risk vs. ISK mechanism has been watered down.
BPOs
Tiericide would produce massive, unsolvable problems with the existing BPOs. LetGÇÖs say CCP got rid of STD and ADV gear so everyone has PRO suits (with different specializations as some advocate for). CCP now has to decide what to do with the BPOs theyGÇÖve been paid for. They could promote all BPOs to PRO level, but that would truly break the economy. As they exist nowGÇöwith no new BPOGÇÖs being sold and being restricted to MLT and STD, their impact on the economy is fairly small (decreasing over time), but if they were of the same tier that everyone else was using, then it would break the game.
The alternatives all amount to fundamentally altering the value of what players paid for when they bough BPOs. Keeping them STD while all other suits get promoted to PRO would make them worthless, refunding them would be a slap-in-the-face, and isnGÇÖt really even possible with things like the Templar set. This would also create a huge financial burden on CCP. Even if they refunded AUR and kept our cash, many of us wouldnGÇÖt need to buy more AUR for a very long timeGÇöand would probably feel so betrayed, you might see many BPO owning vets leave. They could implement some form of crafting and have BPOGÇÖs play a role in that, but it would require a huge amount of development resources to implement that would be much better spent on gameplay, and youGÇÖd still be left with the issue of CCP fundamentally altering your purchase into something very different that what you paid money for. Lastly they could be converted into some cosmetic mechanism and remove the free suit aspect, which again would enrage a lot of their biggest financial supporters.
There is no good solution to the BPO dilemma that tiericide would create.
(continued)
Best PvE idea ever!
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Vell0cet
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Squad.
1454
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Posted - 2014.04.28 20:46:00 -
[2] - Quote
AUR GEAR
Tiericide would ruin the AUR market. AUR gear promises to give early access to gear before you have the skills to use it. This goes away when everyone has access to everything with minimal SP requirements. I donGÇÖt know what percentage of DUST 514GÇÖs revenue is produced by AUR gear sales vs. Boosters, but I suspect this would hurt CCPGÇÖs bottom line. The game canGÇÖt afford to take hits to its income stream. DUST needs a much bigger development team to get to where we all want it to be. This requires money (the real life kind) and tiericide would cut-into revenue (which I suspect is not where CCP wants it to be).
POWER DIVIDE
As I understand it, the primary reason some of the tiericide advocates are promoting it is to reduce the power gap. This game is built on the idea of a power gap. ItGÇÖs the primary motivation for investing time and effort into improving your character. ItGÇÖs arguably the reason EVE as grown every year since launch. If you make the power gap too small, this incentive to invest time, ISK, and real money evaporates, along with the player base and CCPGÇÖs budget. This is an MMORPG, there are plenty of GÇ£fairGÇ¥ shooters where everyone is equal and only gun game matters. The fact that SP, fits, teamwork, gun game, and intelligence all factor into your ability to do well is what makes this the most deep, rich, and interesting FPS ever made. Remove (or reduce too much) the RPG aspects of the game and youGÇÖll loose a lot of what makes this game special. YouGÇÖre essentially trading a short-term gain in accessibility of DUST for the long-term sustainability of a game that rewards commitment and effort by vets (think about how many would biomass if you removed all SP).
Either the power gap is sufficient to incentivize players to commit for the long haul, and put in the time and effort, or itGÇÖs not. Tiericide greatly reduces this incentive. Furthermore, youGÇÖre still going to have SP power gaps (which are much more dramatic than the gear). So itGÇÖs a poor solution for achieving a questionable goal. IGÇÖve heard it suggested that getting lvl 1 in a skill would unlock access to all tiers as one option. This would still have the problem of greatly reducing demand for AUR gear, but otherwise this is a much more reasonable approach to reducing the power gap of gear (while still preserving the risk vs. ISK mechanism that makes this game so great).
NPE
Advocates of tiericide seem to think this is the solution to the new player experience issues, specifically new players being stomped and quitting DUST. I can assure you that new players will continue to be stomped even if all gear was STD and there was no SP. Teamwork, knowledge of the maps/game mechanics, and experience are huge advantages in this game. DonGÇÖt agree with me? Try it out. Get 6 friends together, make a squad of brand-new alts and stomp in the academy. Tiericide is a poor solution to this problem. The problem isnGÇÖt PRO vs. new players in STD, itGÇÖs new players in the same matches with vets.
TIERS ARENGÇÖT THE PROBLEM
Tiericide wonGÇÖt fix the problems with this game, and will generate many new problems of their own (see above). IGÇÖll elaborate on the issues and solutions that are better than tiericide.
NPE SUCKS
The biggest problem with the NPE is the lack of a solid gameplay tutorial. It needs to be story-based and walk the player through the gameplay mechanics in a fun and compelling way. It should have a story, have Portal-like dark humor and Halo-like tutorial action/intensity in a heavily scripted mission that GÇ£sells the gameGÇ¥ on itGÇÖs features highlighting all of the awesome things you can do in DUST. There should be a militia version of everything, there should be more starter suits, and there should be a test range where you can play around with suits/weapons/vehicles/fits to see what youGÇÖre interested in investing SP into. IGÇÖd like to see CCP introduce a test game mode where you can deploy to a test map solo, or with friends (teamkilling is on). In this mode you would have infinite SP and everything costs 0ISK. You wouldnGÇÖt earn ISK or SP, and it wouldnGÇÖt effect your stats in any way. There would be static NPCGÇÖs you can shoot to test fittings. Ideally you could configure NPC skills and SP as well (i.e. walk up to them, press a button and you can access their SP tree and fit their suit/vehicle). You would basically have a consequence-free sandbox to goof around, test mechanics, make Judge-like YouTube videos, etc.
Next, we need to address the real problem with new players being stomped, and that is new players being put in matches with vets. We need an optional 2nd tier academy mode for players under some SP threshold. The threshold should be high enough that you can GÇ£graduateGÇ¥ from this academy and field a reasonably competitive fit (e.g. one solid ADV fit with some decent core skills), but not so high that those about to graduate are stomping the newest players in the pool. I think 5mill SP is probably around that magic number. This mode would be the only game mode checked by default when you graduate from the initial academy (to be replaced by the story-based tutorial whenever thatGÇÖs done). You could still participate in regular pubs, FW, even PC (unlikely anyone would want you, but not prohibited by the game). Having a second tier academy is a thousand-times better solution than tiericide to the new players being stomped issue.
(continued)
Best PvE idea ever!
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Vell0cet
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Squad.
1454
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Posted - 2014.04.28 20:47:00 -
[3] - Quote
Additionally, teamwork is a major part of why organized squads (even if they were all wearing STD) are so lethal in this game. New players need to be GÇ£socializedGÇ¥ as quickly as possible. Not only does forming friendships create a strong incentive to stick around, it helps alleviate shortcomings in the tutorials, and is the only reasonable way to counter organized squads of good players. To address this, we need a new menu for new player corp recruitment. Essentially it would be a list of corps who have registered with CCP (possibly for a monthly ISK fee) to be listed as specifically wanting brand-new players. CCP has final approval of all corps in the list. The list will show the corp name, number of players, number of active players, tax rate, a 200 word-or-less description the CEO writes and submits to CCP for approval. Accessing this menu should be part of the tutorial, and joining a corp should grant a reward. I could see this as a useful recruiting tool for corps like DUST University. I think it would dramatically increase new player retention.
THE ECONOMY SUCKS
Part of the problem with PRO gear is that the economy is broken. With DNS taking over PC there is way too much ISK being generated without the right ISK sinks to destroy it. People are pub stomping as a result, and this is bad for the game. The solution isnGÇÖt tiericide. The solution is to fix the economy. For one thing, PRO suits are way too cheap and STD are too expensive. There should be a much steeper cost curve so you get linear improvement in performance for an exponential increase in cost. It works this way in EVE and it works well. People should be very nervous to run their PRO fits (like they are with their Thales). They should be for PC and special occasions (like revenge). Furthermore, there needs to be big ISK sinks at the corporate level that give PC corps something to invest their ISK in instead of handing out ISK to the members for them to burn on pub matches. Having to buy War barges and MCCGÇÖs in PC 2.0 might be the kind of thing that will suck more ISK out of PC corps.
ISK efficiency isnGÇÖt a stat in DUST. It should be THE stat in DUST. It should be posted in the EOM screen for all to see, and it should be the first stat listed in the leaderboards. The easiest way to reduce proto stomping is to publish to the community everyoneGÇÖs average ISK value of enemy assets destroyed - ISK value of your assets lost per match. The social pressure to have a good ISK efficiency will greatly disincentives running very expensive fits and will make high K/D numbers look stupid if paired with terrible efficiency. This would be trivial to program and would make a huge impact on player behavior.
Collectively these address the problems tiericide is attempting to address in a much better way and doesnGÇÖt sacrifice the GÇ£special sauceGÇ¥ of risk vs. ISK that makes DUST so awesome.
TL;DR: tiericide is f*cking stupid.
Best PvE idea ever!
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
2184
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Posted - 2014.04.28 20:50:00 -
[4] - Quote
Tiericide is one of those buzzwords that gets flown around a lot, I think without everyone realizing it's implications or what it means. I am unconvinced "tiericide" is the magical fix-all for the game. And emphasizing ISK efficiency would do wonders, as people can be competitively marked using any tier of gear, based on how well they use it.
I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate
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Viktor Hadah Jr
Critical-Impact
3673
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Posted - 2014.04.28 20:54:00 -
[5] - Quote
People are saying we should have tiericide like EVE does but then go about a whole different concept of tiericide.
The thing Dust wants for tiericide is nothing like the EVE tiericide.
Sir Hadah for CPM
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ZDub 303
TeamPlayers
Dirt Nap Squad.
2593
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Posted - 2014.04.28 21:04:00 -
[6] - Quote
Vell0cet wrote: Using higher meta modules will give you a MASSIVE advantage over someone with lower meta fits (in EVE the fits are often much more expensive than the hull).
Why can't it also be this way in Dust?
keep in mind that Eve does not cap the number of players in system while Dust does cap the number of players in a lobby match. Large disparity in power is driving new players away in droves. Its not healthy for the long term life of this game...
People advocating for dropsuit tiericide are just trying to lower the power differential some. There will always be players willing to pay for that 20% power differential. I'm not sure a 200% power differential should be attainable this early in the game... |
Cotsy
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
16
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Posted - 2014.04.28 21:10:00 -
[7] - Quote
Hey Vell,
I assume this is in response to Iron Sabre's opinion that tiericide is the solution, or that he was introducing what tiericide is to the general population in hopes of when its introduced to the game that the backlash will be minimal. Because CCP has used the concept in EVE the natural inclination to use it in Dust would be there, so Iron either sees it as a good option (it isnt) or is telling us how it is because CCP wants to bring it in and they need community support to do so.
Tiericide is not a solution, it shouldn't even be considered as an option, thats how bad the concept is. I
f you read what I wrote to iron sabre, you can see that tiericide clearly widens the gap that is it supposedly addressing (you do a great job showing how it would widen the gap).
There is only one solution to matchmaking, in game balance in matchmaking process, and that is a 2-fold solution based on a value of WP + SP, or say skill + advantages gained by skill points. Here is a quick summary:
0-4m SP: this is what we will call the extended academy. All std weapons, suits, classes will be available. There is NO ISK involved in spending, dying but ISK will be rewarded from matches allowing players to get a nice lump sum of ISK when leaving. No tanks or drop ships will be available here to be called in past the 1 of each which will be available at the start of the match, so players can get experience using them.
5-9m SP lets call this the Novice or Beginner Phase: players will be given the option to use militia vehicles in battle, players will be given a stat reset upon graduation which they can use only during this phase and may not use it after.
10-14m and 15-19m SP: intermediate, this will be the beginning of separating and introducing skill to determine who matchmaking is made. Players will be matched based on average WP + SP to create a player # which will be used by Scotty to determine your equally skilled opponents. Squads with more than 3, only the top 3 players scores will be used when making a balanced match.
The ceiling, which is an attribute of tiericide in Dust is around 25-26m SP, but diminishing returns begin around 22-23m SP whereby players going from lv4 to lv5 get marginal increase in stats. Again, players will be grouped upon skill number within the 20m+ SP range.
Tiercide is a joke, but balanced matchmaking is what the game requires. It fixes the NPE, it fixes many of the stomps, the skilled vs unskilled blowouts.. The only downside is that without a solid NPE the lower end of the tier wont have many options due to low # of players if the system is not fixes very shortly. |
Cotsy
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
16
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Posted - 2014.04.28 21:14:00 -
[8] - Quote
You have many many strong points, its a great read, very good opinion supported by strong arguments. I hope my suggestion of dividing based on SP and then SP + skill is a possible solution, as you have shown and I have previously argued, cap'ing gesr is a terrible terrible idea. It only extends the problem and does not address its core issues. |
ZDub 303
TeamPlayers
Dirt Nap Squad.
2594
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Posted - 2014.04.28 21:16:00 -
[9] - Quote
No matter how good or bad tiercide is as an option to improve NPE, I can guarantee SP matchmaking is an unimaginably worse idea.
This game does not have the players to support divided SP tiers, and it may never. A year from now those SP tiers would be largely irrelevant as well. |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14383
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Posted - 2014.04.28 21:19:00 -
[10] - Quote
Cotsy wrote:You have many many strong points, its a great read, very good opinion supported by strong arguments. I hope my suggestion of dividing based on SP and then SP + skill is a possible solution, as you have shown and I have previously argued, cap'ing gesr is a terrible terrible idea. It only extends the problem and does not address its core issues.
So how's gear with 0 sp permanency any better? This quickly adds into 0 Sp permanency into fits and to an extent the soldier ultimately.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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Delta 749
Kestrel Reconnaissance
2850
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Posted - 2014.04.28 21:22:00 -
[11] - Quote
So you support pay to win then right?
I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world.
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Godin Thekiller
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2093
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Posted - 2014.04.28 21:25:00 -
[12] - Quote
1: tech levels aren't the same as tiers. and by saying what you just said, you made the tier system sound even worse; we have both the tech levels, which gets better as you go up, and then there is tiers, which gets better as you go up, so a PROTO tech 2 (say a Assault), is much more superior than a STD medium. This just closes the gap. Also, although it is true that for the same role, a tech 2 is better than a tech 1, that doesn't mean that it's overall better.
2: Your solutions for thing could just as easily go a opposite way and be actually good. For instance, your idea with AUR things. look at League of Legends. You can buy the same legend with a different skins. People Do that. A lot. All CCP has to do is make a lot of neat skins, or even sell us the ability to make our own skins, which they could turn into BPO's. Speaking of BPO's, all they would have to do is turn the BPO's into whatever the original item was equivalent (say the Dragonfly Scout G-I into the Dragonfly Scout G-whatever), and then turn it into a EVE style BPO, where we would just buy the materials off the market, put it into a production line, and make the items.
3: Although you're right about the last two points, they don't cover the full effect of why a lot of people, including most if not all of the current CPM doesn't like it. I can't speak for everyone, but I'll explain why both of those are not completely right:
For the NPE one, you discuss PROTO stomping. PROTO stomping doesn't have to be just against noobs. say one guy doesn't feel like using PROTO gear or is saving up because he doesn't have a ISK farm. Then comes the douche who only runs PROTO gear. They face off, and even though the guy in the STD gear might be better, he lost due to the worse gear. That is not fair, and shouldn't happen. Under a tiercide dust, the guy might have won.
For the economy one, as I said, the ISK farm people won't give a single ****. They got ISK to burn, so losing a truck load or two in a match doesn't matter to them, as they know they will never run out.
click me
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Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz
Dirt Nap Squad.
840
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Posted - 2014.04.28 21:25:00 -
[13] - Quote
Just read a small portion for now, but I assure you I will keep this up and get to the rest when I can. It looks to be a very good write up so far!
+3 fella
Tanks - Balancing Turrets
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Auris Lionesse
Kang Lo Directorate
Gallente Federation
761
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Posted - 2014.04.28 21:48:00 -
[14] - Quote
Tl:dr = Op has no idea what he's talking about.
assaults and logis are specialized roles making them tech 2.
The only valid argument against tiericide is we don't have enough suits to make it worth it.
Eve has 6 frigates, 2 destroyers, 4 cruisers, 3 battle cruisers and 3 battleships that are just "tech one"
Excluding capitals and industrials and tech two and factional etc etc that's 18 ships so 72 ships among 4 races before you count all the others. Making eve at least 6x times more diverse than dust.
it's actually much greater but you get the point.
Dust has 3 per race, making 12 among the 4 races. This is why our variety is so lacking. We have no suits, our only "variety" comes from the ineffective tiers and palette swaps. Standard and advanced tiers suck and every complains about proto being to strong. we should have 4-5 different suits per category. With a specialized tech 2 version of each. Meaning 12-15 unique skins and 24-30 suits per race FOR STARTERS.
Tiericide is getting rid of the three suit tiers and making all suits good instead of having useless standard-advanced tiers.
Even with this solely valid argument against tiericide we still need it.
Gallente Heavy Ninja Turtles! Gallente Heavy Ninja Turtles!
Heroes in a half Gank!
TURTLE POWER!!!
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Autoaim Bot514
The Hetairoi
93
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Posted - 2014.04.28 21:48:00 -
[15] - Quote
1. You'll still risk ISK through the cost of mods, weapons etc.
2. BPO's can be converted into free, but not as good versions of gear, such as current ADV stat militia gear under what I've proposed.
3. There would still be tiers for weapons and modules, as it is in eve. The only things that need to get tiericide are suits.
4. Power divide, or grind divide, you decide.
5. Tiericide may not fix every issue in the game, including NPE, but it would be a good start. |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14385
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Posted - 2014.04.28 21:49:00 -
[16] - Quote
Auris Lionesse wrote:Tl:dr
Op has no idea what he's talking about.
assaults and logis are specialized roles making them tech 2.
The only valid argument against tiericide is we don't have enough suits to make it worth it.
Eve has 6 frigates, 2 destroyers, 4 cruisers, 3 battle cruisers and 3 battleships that are just "tech one"
Excluding capitals and industrials and tech two/tech3 factional etc etc that's 18 ships so 72 ships among 4 races before you count all the others. Making eve at least 6x times more diverse than dust.
it's actually much greater but you get the point.
Dust has 3 per race, making 12 among the 4 races. This is why our variety is so lacking. We have no suits, our only "variety" comes from the ineffective tiers and palette swaps. Standard and advanced tiers suck and every complains about proto being to strong. we should have 4-5 different suits per category. With a specialized tech 2 version of each. Meaning 12-15 unique skins and 24-30 suits per race FOR STARTERS.
Tiericide is getting rid of the three suit tiers and making all suits good instead of having useless standard-advanced tiers.
cept if you look them up they're tech 1...
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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Godin Thekiller
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2093
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Posted - 2014.04.28 21:51:00 -
[17] - Quote
Auris Lionesse wrote:Tl:dr
Op has no idea what he's talking about.
assaults and logis are specialized roles making them tech 2.
The only valid argument against tiericide is we don't have enough suits to make it worth it.
Eve has 6 frigates, 2 destroyers, 4 cruisers, 3 battle cruisers and 3 battleships that are just "tech one"
Excluding capitals and industrials and tech two/tech3 factional etc etc that's 18 ships so 72 ships among 4 races before you count all the others. Making eve at least 6x times more diverse than dust.
it's actually much greater but you get the point.
Dust has 3 per race, making 12 among the 4 races. This is why our variety is so lacking. We have no suits, our only "variety" comes from the ineffective tiers and palette swaps. Standard and advanced tiers suck and every complains about proto being to strong. we should have 4-5 different suits per category. With a specialized tech 2 version of each. Meaning 12-15 unique skins and 24-30 suits per race FOR STARTERS.
Tiericide is getting rid of the three suit tiers and making all suits good instead of having useless standard-advanced tiers.
EVE has lots more due to having more than just combat.....
click me
Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
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Auris Lionesse
Kang Lo Directorate
Gallente Federation
761
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Posted - 2014.04.28 21:57:00 -
[18] - Quote
Godin Thekiller wrote:Auris Lionesse wrote:Tl:dr
Op has no idea what he's talking about.
assaults and logis are specialized roles making them tech 2.
The only valid argument against tiericide is we don't have enough suits to make it worth it.
Eve has 6 frigates, 2 destroyers, 4 cruisers, 3 battle cruisers and 3 battleships that are just "tech one"
Excluding capitals and industrials and tech two/tech3 factional etc etc that's 18 ships so 72 ships among 4 races before you count all the others. Making eve at least 6x times more diverse than dust.
it's actually much greater but you get the point.
Dust has 3 per race, making 12 among the 4 races. This is why our variety is so lacking. We have no suits, our only "variety" comes from the ineffective tiers and palette swaps. Standard and advanced tiers suck and every complains about proto being to strong. we should have 4-5 different suits per category. With a specialized tech 2 version of each. Meaning 12-15 unique skins and 24-30 suits per race FOR STARTERS.
Tiericide is getting rid of the three suit tiers and making all suits good instead of having useless standard-advanced tiers. EVE has lots more due to having more than just combat.....
I only counted combat ships in the 72 and I even excluded titans carriers dreadnoughts and motherships.
Gallente Heavy Ninja Turtles! Gallente Heavy Ninja Turtles!
Heroes in a half Gank!
TURTLE POWER!!!
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Godin Thekiller
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2094
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Posted - 2014.04.28 21:59:00 -
[19] - Quote
Auris Lionesse wrote:Godin Thekiller wrote:Auris Lionesse wrote:Tl:dr
Op has no idea what he's talking about.
assaults and logis are specialized roles making them tech 2.
The only valid argument against tiericide is we don't have enough suits to make it worth it.
Eve has 6 frigates, 2 destroyers, 4 cruisers, 3 battle cruisers and 3 battleships that are just "tech one"
Excluding capitals and industrials and tech two/tech3 factional etc etc that's 18 ships so 72 ships among 4 races before you count all the others. Making eve at least 6x times more diverse than dust.
it's actually much greater but you get the point.
Dust has 3 per race, making 12 among the 4 races. This is why our variety is so lacking. We have no suits, our only "variety" comes from the ineffective tiers and palette swaps. Standard and advanced tiers suck and every complains about proto being to strong. we should have 4-5 different suits per category. With a specialized tech 2 version of each. Meaning 12-15 unique skins and 24-30 suits per race FOR STARTERS.
Tiericide is getting rid of the three suit tiers and making all suits good instead of having useless standard-advanced tiers. EVE has lots more due to having more than just combat..... I only counted combat ships in the 72 and I even excluded titans carriers dreadnoughts and motherships.
Ah. I never myself counted how many ships there was. You're probably right thinking about it.
click me
Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
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Autoaim Bot514
The Hetairoi
93
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Posted - 2014.04.28 22:00:00 -
[20] - Quote
Auris Lionesse wrote:Godin Thekiller wrote:Auris Lionesse wrote:Tl:dr
Op has no idea what he's talking about.
assaults and logis are specialized roles making them tech 2.
The only valid argument against tiericide is we don't have enough suits to make it worth it.
Eve has 6 frigates, 2 destroyers, 4 cruisers, 3 battle cruisers and 3 battleships that are just "tech one"
Excluding capitals and industrials and tech two/tech3 factional etc etc that's 18 ships so 72 ships among 4 races before you count all the others. Making eve at least 6x times more diverse than dust.
it's actually much greater but you get the point.
Dust has 3 per race, making 12 among the 4 races. This is why our variety is so lacking. We have no suits, our only "variety" comes from the ineffective tiers and palette swaps. Standard and advanced tiers suck and every complains about proto being to strong. we should have 4-5 different suits per category. With a specialized tech 2 version of each. Meaning 12-15 unique skins and 24-30 suits per race FOR STARTERS.
Tiericide is getting rid of the three suit tiers and making all suits good instead of having useless standard-advanced tiers. EVE has lots more due to having more than just combat..... I only counted combat ships in the 72 and I even excluded titans carriers dreadnoughts and motherships.
Not having to create 3 suits for each role would free CCP up to introduce more roles for new suits. |
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Auris Lionesse
Kang Lo Directorate
Gallente Federation
761
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Posted - 2014.04.28 22:00:00 -
[21] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Auris Lionesse wrote:Tl:dr
Op has no idea what he's talking about.
assaults and logis are specialized roles making them tech 2.
The only valid argument against tiericide is we don't have enough suits to make it worth it.
Eve has 6 frigates, 2 destroyers, 4 cruisers, 3 battle cruisers and 3 battleships that are just "tech one"
Excluding capitals and industrials and tech two/tech3 factional etc etc that's 18 ships so 72 ships among 4 races before you count all the others. Making eve at least 6x times more diverse than dust.
it's actually much greater but you get the point.
Dust has 3 per race, making 12 among the 4 races. This is why our variety is so lacking. We have no suits, our only "variety" comes from the ineffective tiers and palette swaps. Standard and advanced tiers suck and every complains about proto being to strong. we should have 4-5 different suits per category. With a specialized tech 2 version of each. Meaning 12-15 unique skins and 24-30 suits per race FOR STARTERS.
Tiericide is getting rid of the three suit tiers and making all suits good instead of having useless standard-advanced tiers. cept if you look them up they're tech 1...
Is a heavy assault cruiser tech 1 or tech 2?
Gallente Heavy Ninja Turtles! Gallente Heavy Ninja Turtles!
Heroes in a half Gank!
TURTLE POWER!!!
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Cotsy
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
16
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Posted - 2014.04.28 22:04:00 -
[22] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Cotsy wrote:You have many many strong points, its a great read, very good opinion supported by strong arguments. I hope my suggestion of dividing based on SP and then SP + skill is a possible solution, as you have shown and I have previously argued, cap'ing gesr is a terrible terrible idea. It only extends the problem and does not address its core issues. So how's gear with 0 sp permanency any better? This quickly adds into 0 Sp permanency into fits and to an extent the soldier ultimately.
How is 0 SP gear any better? Not sure if you mean how I made my 0-4m SP battle academy or not.
A: There is no 0 SP, SP is gained passively therefore a player is never at 0 SP, he starts off at 400,000k and he is able to gain SP + ISK via battle academy until he reaches the next level. SP is only a factor until a player reaches 9m SP and then after he is sorted by skill level, but within the frameworks of SP. If you are referring to my idea that all std gear should be available in the battle academy, that idea is based on showing players the games variety and giving them experience playing with all weapons, gear, suits so they know what they like the best and can skill into it afterwards. Limiting players and punishing their choice to try out weapons by making them pay for it via AUR or wasting SP isn't helping the NPE. People want to try everything, see what they like, see what the game has to offer and then once they leave the Academy will have a goal in which to work for.
If you are referring to gear you can get with 0 SP invested, that should be the militia gear? I'm sort of confused I think you mean BPO's but you would have said BPO's or militia gear.
A: BPO gear cost 0 ISK and can have an impact on the ISK aspect, either by offering lower payouts in battle or by offering advantages to players??! Is that what you are saying I hardly think BPO's have an impact so great they need to be addressed, passed adding in their intended value in the layout system (if you wanted to). Some BPO's allow 0 SP to be invested, some allow low levels of SP to get decent gear, but BPO's nor cheap gear usage should be a concern. So gear with 0 asap, like crappy BPO's arent any better, they out you at a disadvantage cause those holding them of course are from open or closed beta and you match up vs better gear in match, so skill determines your opponents.
Maybe you mean this:
If you are referring to my point previously, whereby I said even if players are using the same gear the player who has Higher SP invested and received boosts to mods and suit.. So a tiericide system does not work because it immediately does the thing you are trying to prevent by limiting gear etc, it provides an advantage to the gear you are limiting.
I am not really sure the point you are trying to make, 0 SP would not be added into anything. The level of weapon, or suit or anything you decide to invest i to doesn't affect my tier system, it only affects ThE EVE to dust concept. Those who cannot afford things due to SP are placed within the same system of the tier, so others will be facing similar challenges. If you referring to how BPO's affect the tier, well most people with BPO's are 20m+ and their PBO's are going to hold up to advanced gear very well.
If you can clarify I would be happy to explain what you mean in more detail. |
P14GU3
The Southern Legion
Final Resolution.
624
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Posted - 2014.04.28 22:12:00 -
[23] - Quote
I had a discussion early today with a guy (alt, he didnt say his main, and i didnt ask.)
He was largely advocating for teircide. It was funny tho, he had no clue what teircide even meant. He kept talking about having mlt/basic only, adv only, proto only, and unresricted game modes, because it would be fair, and give people a chance to choose to be stomped or not.
I meantioned an academy extension and he flipped his lid about how it wouldn't help because you would still have 5m SP players with newberries. He was insistant that proto was the issue. I didnt bring it up to him, but i remembered some events back in beta where we could battle against people playing dust at gaming conventions.
They (the conventioners) were given full proto suits in an infinate supply and max skills in everything. Most of us dust players were in basic, adv with a proto weapon at best. These battles ended up having ridiculous wait times. Some people never even got to participate because they were filling up so fast. Why? Because these matches were cake. Free isk basically, because the players at the convention were horrible, even with maxed toons in proto gear. Im not saying proto doesnt give an advantage, but it really isnt as big of a factor as most people believe. Map knowledge, tactics, coordinated play, gungame all play a role.
Yeah, i run an Amarr logi with a mass driver.. what are YOU going to do about it?
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Cotsy
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
16
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Posted - 2014.04.28 22:14:00 -
[24] - Quote
Delta 749 wrote:So you support pay to win then right?
A little open ended here, but the idea of AUR being purchased would greatly help CCP. The idea of a matchmaking tier system as I have described it would be based on SP at low levels and SP + skill at higher levels.
If one is able to get AUR gear at a lower level, it would provide a marginal advantage over his fellow beginners, or battle academy members. CCP is not a pay to win, because everyone can purchase the same gear either via AUR or time/playing the game. Having a tier system like I suggested would be a greater benefit to CCP money wise but would only give players a marginal advantage and for a very very short time. AUR would also allow players in the second bracket to use all the gear they used in Academy, which would encourage players to spend more money, and doesn't provide any advantage.
AUR provides very small advantages in the early process, and frankly, none at later tiers.
The game is far from pay to win, it's more of the EVE model whereby the longer you're account has been active the more likely you are given the advantage. This doesn't always hold true because boosters, and time played, but it's not too far off the EVE model. |
Vitharr Foebane
Living Like Larry Schwag
1064
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Posted - 2014.04.28 22:15:00 -
[25] - Quote
Honestly, even if we get teiricide. even if a fresh outta academy newberry gets the same slots as a vet? will he have skills necessary to run the suit as well as a vet? The simple answer is no he will have neither the suit bonuses of the Vet nor the core skills to run the same gear as the vet. The vet will still win most of the time due to their greater SP investment unless the newberry gets the drop on them. I'm rather neutral on the topic of tiericide though. This is merely food for thought
Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics III
I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
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Soldner VonKuechle
SAM-MIK
General Tso's Alliance
638
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Posted - 2014.04.28 22:17:00 -
[26] - Quote
Solid argument vell, but there are some issues with it.
Tech(nology) levels are NOT equal to tiers. They are significant increases is power obtained by further SP sinking is hyper specialized roles, something which DUSTs structure is still lacking.
Using your example the Omen is a high damage tech level 1 ship that gets moderate bonusii for filling an attack role
The Zealot, its technology 2 upgrade, gets even further advanced damage outputs with speed boost bonusii attached to it, while the hull itself stat up grades via hp, fitting and damage resistance bonusii
The Legion, the super advanced tech 3 version is a ship that can be damn near anything so meh, doesnt fit in the linear example.
the tiers of EVE did give each tech 1 ship a distinct advantage at higher operating levels.
In the case of the Caldari Battlecruisers, the Ferox was a tier 1 ship with terrible fitting, low weapon count and rather uninspired module layout, while the tier 2 ship, the Drake, was by far the better choice with tanking ability being superb, a higher count of weapons available and enough fitting space to fit a ship fully with fitting intensive technology 2 modules with low fitting SP. the tier 3 Naga when it got introduced, shortly before tiericide, was just jesus-mode, battleship grade weapons, slot layouts for jesus tanking, speed of near a frigate. tiericide happened and viola, each got its own role and are now widely used.
the risk vs isk aspect is pretty much correct, and with tiericide AND the introduction of more content (suits, tech levels, basic non redarded structure) it would skew in the direction you want it to, because people wont want to run tech2 assaults because shts expensive vs basic assaults which are moderately good and fairly priced (sorry i m outa of coffee, i might be jumping between present dust and hypothetical dust alot)
BPOS are a sticky icky thing, and in Hypo-dust they could be strangly overpowered yes. if their is no industry introduced. The only way to not break the future of this game with BPOs is to have some sort of industry introduced. the dilution factor you talked about is true if nothing happens.
Aur gear. player market could destroy it because faction gear. OOOOrrrrrr player market could totally boost the sales because some peolpe might be short on time and use aur to get things and sell it to peeps with tons of isk and want to try new things. this ones a grab bag no matter what happens
Now the power divide would still be there in hypo-dust, and it most likely will be as great because of tech2 things, but its the 'little guy' has a chance because the tech1 gear is standardized. ill explain this more with an example in a bit.
NPE does suck, for a lot of reasons, stomping is one, lets continue. I do like your ideas here though
The economy of dust is crap, i agree. But hypo-dust has an industry and scarcity of resources to create a fully functioning free economy, where the higher powered gear sells for more but consumes more resrouces to make, blah blah blah, tis goes back to the risk vs isk section which youre pretty much right on target for the general idea.
Okay, hypo-dust example, ill use the caldari medium since its pretty much the most readily used one.
currently it goes basic std-basic adv(can pick discipline here) basic proto into assault std-adv-proto and logi std-adv-proto
with no bonusii being apllied to basics and (currently lackluster) bonusii being applied to specialized suits.
now, for tiericide TO WORK, there NEEDS to be MORE CONTENT. tech levels are huge in this, i think you and i can both agree. Hypo dusts tree would look something like this
Skill: Caldari basic medium frames
Suits: -Combat *5% weapon fitting reduction and 5% reload speed rail weapons per level
-Logistics *5% equip fitting reduction and 5% nantie supply/rate/health of nano hives per level
-Vehicle Supression 5%reduction to swarm lock on time and 5% swarm range per level
-EWAR 5% weapon lockout time and 5% weapon lockout range per level
All of these suits would be available with Caldari Basic Medium Frames skilled to level 1, with bonuses at a perlevel basis it would encourage the use of leveling it all the way to 5
Then at this point, tech 2 vairants can be skilled and unlocked
Skill: Caldari Assault
Suit: -Spectre *5% weapon fitting reduction 5%reload speed per level of cadari basic medium frames
1% incoming damage reduction and 1% movement speed per level of caldari assault
-Linemen *5% weapong fitting reduction, 5% reload speed per level of caldari basic medium frames
*5%shield ext-efficacy and 2% rate of fire hybrid-rails per level
Skill: Caldari Logistics
Suit: Field Technician 5% equip fitting and 5% nanite supply/rate/health per level
5% rate of remote shield booster and 1% transfer range per level.
so on and so forth.
You make a very solid argument Vell, but there is room for both sides of the entire tiericide arguement, mainly because its a huge huge undertaking that requires massive amounts of resources to make sure it gets done right.
Which knowing ccp, wont happen and we'll get an even further broken game.
ps, sorry for the abrupt stop, i ve run out of time to finish what i was doing.
TLDR; tiericide can ONLY work if MORE SCHTUFF is ADDED to the game.
The forums are more reliable than my spais :(
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Shion Typhon
Intara Direct Action
Caldari State
512
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Posted - 2014.04.28 22:19:00 -
[27] - Quote
Godin Thekiller wrote:
2: Your solutions for thing could just as easily go a opposite way and be actually good. For instance, your idea with AUR things. look at League of Legends. You can buy the same legend with a different skins. People Do that. A lot. All CCP has to do is make a lot of neat skins, or even sell us the ability to make our own skins, which they could turn into BPO's. Speaking of BPO's, all they would have to do is turn the BPO's into whatever the original item was equivalent (say the Dragonfly Scout G-I into the Dragonfly Scout G-whatever), and then turn it into a EVE style BPO, where we would just buy the materials off the market, put it into a production line, and make the items.
So true, there are plenty of examples of huge F2P markets in games were purchaseable items are restricted to skins and toy items only. This is a proven market, people WILL spend for this stuff. |
ZDub 303
TeamPlayers
Dirt Nap Squad.
2598
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Posted - 2014.04.28 22:19:00 -
[28] - Quote
Vitharr Foebane wrote:Honestly, even if we get teiricide. even if a fresh outta academy newberry gets the same slots as a vet? will he have skills necessary to run the suit as well as a vet? The simple answer is no he will have neither the suit bonuses of the Vet nor the core skills to run the same gear as the vet. The vet will still win most of the time due to their greater SP investment unless the newberry gets the drop on them. I'm rather neutral on the topic of tiericide though. This is merely food for thought
The RPG progression is still maintained, which is a core aspect of Dust. You must admit though, the power differential is dramatically reduced.
With a fix to shield extenders, even a 2m SP newberry can get within 20% of the 40m+ SP bittervet. That's acceptable imo, better than the vet having 300% the HP and ~30% more damage. |
Soldner VonKuechle
SAM-MIK
General Tso's Alliance
638
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Posted - 2014.04.28 22:27:00 -
[29] - Quote
Crap forgot to talk about slot layout and role bonusii.
Will edit when I get back to my computer.
The forums are more reliable than my spais :(
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Delanus Turgias
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
456
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Posted - 2014.04.28 22:29:00 -
[30] - Quote
Good points all around. The rabble in the comments seem to be throwing wild assumptions around like they're facts, but ignore most of them. We need to stop thinking of only tiericide, locking us to one solution and one, final solution only (Read: IWS Stahp FFS) limits creative ideas and discussion and leads us into a never-ending death-spiral of why/why nots for only one idea, instead of coming up with new, unique solutions and discussing the merits of those.
But don't go asking me for ideas how to solve the problem, I personally don't believe there is a problem (I know I'm gonna get flak for that), but I'd like to see what all those bright minds lurking in the community can come up with.
Closed Beta Vet since May 2012
The Laser Rifle- Reach Out And Burn Slaves
Proud owner of essentially every BPO in Dust
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