DUST Search - Why tiericide is a horrible idea

Teilka Darkmist wrote:

ZDub 303 wrote:

Teilka Darkmist wrote:

Vrain Matari wrote:

Iron Wolf Saber wrote:

Another fantasy to break is how cheap your suits would be if they where player provided.

we're talking 10 isk, not 10 hundred, 10 thousand or million; just 10 a pop. Unpopular ones will dip further and may become refine fodder; the specialists would likely gain most popularity capping at 1k a piece.

And here i thought the refine value if a suit would be determined by it's mineral inputs.

Maybe you got a nice perpetual motion machine you wanna try and sell us while you're at it?

When you look at the fairly small mineral amounts a frigate takes, and realise that it costs 100-200 thousand isk for a T1 hull, then scale down to a single dropsuit, Iron Wolf Saber's estimate of how little they'd cost may actually be on the high side. Most likely, a Blueprint in eve wouldn't be able to make less than 100 or possibly 1000 (or maybe more) dropsuits due to the small mineral costs per suit.

What kind of minerals are dropsuits made from though? Keeping in mind that tritanium is not stable in atmospheric conditions.

These dropsuits could be made of pure morphite or zydrine for all we know... that would certainly cost a pretty penny...

Not in the quantities we're talking. Morphite is currently selling at roughly 5000 isk per unit and Zydrine at around 500 isk per unit (and these are eve isk, not dust isk) a T1 frigate takes roughly 2-20 zydrine and no Morphite. Morphite starts getting used for T2 ships and a T2 frigate doesn't take more than about 50 units of Morphite. Scale that down to dropsuits and one dropsuit would take a small fraction of a single unit of each. Even if it was pure Morphite, A dropsuit would not cost more than a couple of isk.


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ZDub 303 TeamPlayers Dirt Nap Squad. 2593	Posted - 2014.04.28 21:04:00 - [1] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: Using higher meta modules will give you a MASSIVE advantage over someone with lower meta fits (in EVE the fits are often much more expensive than the hull). Why can't it also be this way in Dust? keep in mind that Eve does not cap the number of players in system while Dust does cap the number of players in a lobby match. Large disparity in power is driving new players away in droves. Its not healthy for the long term life of this game... People advocating for dropsuit tiericide are just trying to lower the power differential some. There will always be players willing to pay for that 20% power differential. I'm not sure a 200% power differential should be attainable this early in the game...
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers Dirt Nap Squad. 2594	Posted - 2014.04.28 21:16:00 - [2] - Quote No matter how good or bad tiercide is as an option to improve NPE, I can guarantee SP matchmaking is an unimaginably worse idea. This game does not have the players to support divided SP tiers, and it may never. A year from now those SP tiers would be largely irrelevant as well.
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers Dirt Nap Squad. 2598	Posted - 2014.04.28 22:19:00 - [3] - Quote Vitharr Foebane wrote: Honestly, even if we get teiricide. even if a fresh outta academy newberry gets the same slots as a vet? will he have skills necessary to run the suit as well as a vet? The simple answer is no he will have neither the suit bonuses of the Vet nor the core skills to run the same gear as the vet. The vet will still win most of the time due to their greater SP investment unless the newberry gets the drop on them. I'm rather neutral on the topic of tiericide though. This is merely food for thought The RPG progression is still maintained, which is a core aspect of Dust. You must admit though, the power differential is dramatically reduced. With a fix to shield extenders, even a 2m SP newberry can get within 20% of the 40m+ SP bittervet. That's acceptable imo, better than the vet having 300% the HP and ~30% more damage.
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers Dirt Nap Squad. 2598	Posted - 2014.04.28 23:04:00 - [4] - Quote Rusty Shallows wrote: True Adamance wrote: Rusty Shallows wrote: Vell0cet wrote: snip TL;DR: tiericide is f*cking stupid. Most of your post reads like a PAC attack AD. I live in a battleground State so these are pretty easy to spot. Still Tiericide will not work for Dust as it did for EVE, it will either bring some strong benefits or ruin variation and invalidate SP like it does for tank modules. Agreed that it would ruin modules. It could work for reorganizing weapon sub-variants by skill level rather than having so many teirs. Where it can shine is holding back power creep on Frames and Vehicles. Both of those are areas we'e had (or are having) trouble with. Exactly. The purpose behind tiercide is that modules should be balanced around their fitting cost, its power to fit ratio that matters as PG and CPU will eventually limit the total amount of power per fit. Dropsuit frames however are just a straight isk to power conversion. In theory it made sense, but in practice it doesn't work and just leads to what we affectionately call protostomping. I'll admit that I do it and i'm not ashamed of it, if you offer me that level of power I am going to exploit it, its just my min-max nature. Its not healthy for the long term success of the game though. Another option would be pseudo-tiericide, where std and adv dropsuits have the same number of slots but less PG and CPU. You lessen the power differential without removing it entirely. In the end, the std suit to pro suit power differential is substantial. Any veteran player who goes into PC with a std fit would not stand a chance... period. No amount of skill can overcome itl. People are just exploring different ways to lessen that power differential between dropsuit tiers, we all can see its killing the game.
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers Dirt Nap Squad. 2598	Posted - 2014.04.28 23:58:00 - [5] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Then no one can justify not using proto in that situation. This is why fixing PC is important first and foremost to address the infinite ISK problem in addition to dealing with alt-recycling exploiters. That is the point though, you cannot justify not using prototype. But you could probably justify using Assault vs Logi vs Scout vs Commando. They all have a purpose and a role on the field. While you may think 'fixing' PC would fix protostomping, I can guarantee you it would not. Even an ISK reset would not fix it. There are enough people out there who could work out using proto + squad tactics to roll over another team. I use proto constantly, I've received very very little in terms of 'PC paychecks' and I can still remain at approximately the same wallet size and I know many others who do that as well. Once the player market is introduced you'll have P2Wers buying and selling boosters maintaining large wallets and also running proto gear constantly. There is no reason not to run proto gear if you have the ability to. It just doesn't make sense to have that power differential, its so large and it drives new players away.
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers Dirt Nap Squad. 2602	Posted - 2014.04.29 00:36:00 - [6] - Quote Autoaim Bot514 wrote: No, it'd work just fine. Itll be easier to add stuff after tiericide. Exactly, not sure why this is so hard to grasp...
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers Dirt Nap Squad. 2602	Posted - 2014.04.29 00:53:00 - [7] - Quote Soldner VonKuechle wrote: Autoaim Bot514 wrote: Soldner VonKuechle wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: Autoaim Bot514 wrote: No, it'd work just fine. Itll be easier to add stuff after tiericide. Exactly, not sure why this is so hard to grasp... Variety is already dead so what harm could it do right? Having 3 suits that are incrementally better is not variety. Lol do you use any of them besides proto to fight/stomp and militia/bpo for isk? I know I don't. Anyone says otherwise is probably a liar. I don't use anything but my Amarr Logi ak.0, if I were to skill into another suit I probably wouldn't use it very often until I also had that suit to 5 and could use the *k.0 version of that suit. Tiercide means I could skill into... Minmatar Logistics Dropsuit today and use it somewhat effectively on the field. It's not as good as my fully skilled ak.0, but its not so inferior that I just flat out have no reason to use it, like a m-1 or m/1 logi suit would be if I skilled into min logi right now (not enough SP to take it straight to 5 atm). In fact, I feel like we would be MORE variety on the field, as people would be willing to branch out more and bring a larger variety of suits to the field than just the one suit they got to 5.
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers Dirt Nap Squad. 2607	Posted - 2014.04.29 06:16:00 - [8] - Quote Teilka Darkmist wrote: Vrain Matari wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Another fantasy to break is how cheap your suits would be if they where player provided. we're talking 10 isk, not 10 hundred, 10 thousand or million; just 10 a pop. Unpopular ones will dip further and may become refine fodder; the specialists would likely gain most popularity capping at 1k a piece. And here i thought the refine value if a suit would be determined by it's mineral inputs. Maybe you got a nice perpetual motion machine you wanna try and sell us while you're at it? When you look at the fairly small mineral amounts a frigate takes, and realise that it costs 100-200 thousand isk for a T1 hull, then scale down to a single dropsuit, Iron Wolf Saber's estimate of how little they'd cost may actually be on the high side. Most likely, a Blueprint in eve wouldn't be able to make less than 100 or possibly 1000 (or maybe more) dropsuits due to the small mineral costs per suit. What kind of minerals are dropsuits made from though? Keeping in mind that tritanium is not stable in atmospheric conditions. These dropsuits could be made of pure morphite or zydrine for all we know... that would certainly cost a pretty penny...
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers Dirt Nap Squad. 2607	Posted - 2014.04.29 06:37:00 - [9] - Quote Teilka Darkmist wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: Teilka Darkmist wrote: Vrain Matari wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Another fantasy to break is how cheap your suits would be if they where player provided. we're talking 10 isk, not 10 hundred, 10 thousand or million; just 10 a pop. Unpopular ones will dip further and may become refine fodder; the specialists would likely gain most popularity capping at 1k a piece. And here i thought the refine value if a suit would be determined by it's mineral inputs. Maybe you got a nice perpetual motion machine you wanna try and sell us while you're at it? When you look at the fairly small mineral amounts a frigate takes, and realise that it costs 100-200 thousand isk for a T1 hull, then scale down to a single dropsuit, Iron Wolf Saber's estimate of how little they'd cost may actually be on the high side. Most likely, a Blueprint in eve wouldn't be able to make less than 100 or possibly 1000 (or maybe more) dropsuits due to the small mineral costs per suit. What kind of minerals are dropsuits made from though? Keeping in mind that tritanium is not stable in atmospheric conditions. These dropsuits could be made of pure morphite or zydrine for all we know... that would certainly cost a pretty penny... Not in the quantities we're talking. Morphite is currently selling at roughly 5000 isk per unit and Zydrine at around 500 isk per unit (and these are eve isk, not dust isk) a T1 frigate takes roughly 2-20 zydrine and no Morphite. Morphite starts getting used for T2 ships and a T2 frigate doesn't take more than about 50 units of Morphite. Scale that down to dropsuits and one dropsuit would take a small fraction of a single unit of each. Even if it was pure Morphite, A dropsuit would not cost more than a couple of isk. Even though the frigate uses 50 morphite, it's also using hundreds of thousands of units of trit and pyerite, etc. if a dropsuit took 50 units of morphite per suit, how long before the whole market for morphite crashes? Ideally though we would use a new mineral, maybe something obtain only through eve dust interaction.