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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14383
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Posted - 2014.04.28 21:19:00 -
[1] - Quote
Cotsy wrote:You have many many strong points, its a great read, very good opinion supported by strong arguments. I hope my suggestion of dividing based on SP and then SP + skill is a possible solution, as you have shown and I have previously argued, cap'ing gesr is a terrible terrible idea. It only extends the problem and does not address its core issues.
So how's gear with 0 sp permanency any better? This quickly adds into 0 Sp permanency into fits and to an extent the soldier ultimately.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14385
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Posted - 2014.04.28 21:49:00 -
[2] - Quote
Auris Lionesse wrote:Tl:dr
Op has no idea what he's talking about.
assaults and logis are specialized roles making them tech 2.
The only valid argument against tiericide is we don't have enough suits to make it worth it.
Eve has 6 frigates, 2 destroyers, 4 cruisers, 3 battle cruisers and 3 battleships that are just "tech one"
Excluding capitals and industrials and tech two/tech3 factional etc etc that's 18 ships so 72 ships among 4 races before you count all the others. Making eve at least 6x times more diverse than dust.
it's actually much greater but you get the point.
Dust has 3 per race, making 12 among the 4 races. This is why our variety is so lacking. We have no suits, our only "variety" comes from the ineffective tiers and palette swaps. Standard and advanced tiers suck and every complains about proto being to strong. we should have 4-5 different suits per category. With a specialized tech 2 version of each. Meaning 12-15 unique skins and 24-30 suits per race FOR STARTERS.
Tiericide is getting rid of the three suit tiers and making all suits good instead of having useless standard-advanced tiers.
cept if you look them up they're tech 1...
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14389
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Posted - 2014.04.28 23:03:00 -
[3] - Quote
Remembers the days of dust 514 when we didn't have tiers... of course many other things were broken back then.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14389
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Posted - 2014.04.28 23:40:00 -
[4] - Quote
Let me throw a curveball at you then.
You have infinite isk and SP
Justify not using prototype gear.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14389
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Posted - 2014.04.28 23:47:00 -
[5] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Let me throw a curveball at you then.
You have infinite isk and SP
Justify not using prototype gear. Assuming the economy is in full swing and PC gets fixed, ISK. ISK will justify not using pro gear like we see now. Imagine paying ten million ISK for a proto setup. Edit: one more thing. If the economy and of is fixed, no one will have infinite ISK.
That doesn't answer the hypothetical which is regardless a highly possible situation without the artificiality.
Infinite isk
and more SP than that suit can ever use in any type of situation
Justify not using prototype.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14390
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Posted - 2014.04.28 23:53:00 -
[6] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Let me throw a curveball at you then.
You have infinite isk and SP
Justify not using prototype gear. Assuming the economy is in full swing and PC gets fixed, ISK. ISK will justify not using pro gear like we see now. Imagine paying ten million ISK for a proto setup. Edit: one more thing. If the economy and of is fixed, no one will have infinite ISK. That doesn't answer the hypothetical which is regardless a highly possible situation without the artificiality. Infinite isk and more SP than that suit can ever use in any type of situation Justify not using prototype. Then no one can justify not using proto in that situation. This is why fixing PC is important first and foremost to address the infinite ISK problem in addition to dealing with alt-recycling exploiters.
Fixing PC will not magically make that isk disappear; we all remember that little recent horror story of that one corp holding newbies hostage and taxing them 100% to fund their tanks. Similar to eve today; no matter how many titans you sink they just magically (though realistically its not magic but alot of work) get replaced the next day.
There are other ways to continuously fund players without passive isk with permanent flow of isk enough to sustain them; farming is a popular one.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
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Posted - 2014.04.28 23:58:00 -
[7] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Let me throw a curveball at you then.
You have infinite isk and SP
Justify not using prototype gear. If proto has enough diminishing returns, that it's barely superior, but drastically more costly, only those who are the absolute richest and most tryhardy will always use proto. And if diminishing returns on gear quality works right, proto will be a small enough increment above advanced, that it won't help them compensate for a lack of player skill.
What you just said is another form of tiericide though; just you killed top tier. Similar to shifting assault needs to lvl 3 from basic skill killed basic prototype tier. Advanced becomes the new top tier and anyone caught dead wearing proto is going to be considered a noob.
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=17425453
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14397
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Posted - 2014.04.29 02:44:00 -
[8] - Quote
Still waiting on an answer to my previous conundrum though.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14398
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Posted - 2014.04.29 03:39:00 -
[9] - Quote
Vell0cet wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Still waiting on an answer to my previous conundrum though. An ISK efficiency stat would be one reason. The same player with infinite ISK that enjoys padding his K/D with nonstop PRO gear would likely have some very ugly ISK efficiency numbers. Players in EVE with billions of ISK don't run golems fitted like the killmail you linked for the very same reason: it's embarrassing as hell.
Eve corp is making the infinite isk happen.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14399
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Posted - 2014.04.29 04:20:00 -
[10] - Quote
Vell0cet wrote:
NOT WHAT YOU THINK IT IS
GǪBUT THERE ARE STILL TIERS IN EVE! To use an example, You have the Omen which is an Amarr T1 cruiser, the Navy Omen which is an all-around better version, the Zealot which is a T2 version of the Omen
(continued)
The major difference between a Omen and Omen Navy Variant
Omen
10% Reduction to Medium Turret Activation
5% Medium Turret RoF
Omen Navy
10% medium Energy Turret damage
10% Medium Energy Turret Optimal
Hmm...
One's a Sniper the other is a Brawler for breaking front lines.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14399
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Posted - 2014.04.29 04:35:00 -
[11] - Quote
Or the harsh reality
Eve corp doesn't give a flying eff because if experience has taught them anything is that utterly crushing your opponent massively does save isk in the end. Losing a single fight can unravel an entire alliance and would rather not risk it and by doing so would embolden the enemy.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14400
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Posted - 2014.04.29 04:42:00 -
[12] - Quote
Autoaim Bot514 wrote:Vrain Matari wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Vell0cet wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Still waiting on an answer to my previous conundrum though. An ISK efficiency stat would be one reason. The same player with infinite ISK that enjoys padding his K/D with nonstop PRO gear would likely have some very ugly ISK efficiency numbers. Players in EVE with billions of ISK don't run golems fitted like the killmail you linked for the very same reason: it's embarrassing as hell. Eve corp is making the infinite isk happen. This is very true, insanely wealthy EVE sugar dadies. But presumably, the EVE corp wants something that they are using us to get and we, ofc, are fighting to make ISK. So a full campaign in proto gear is going to cost our employers a pretty penny, and will push back by a considerable amount the date by which their ROI is positive. Corps that can produce results without wall-to-wall protospam will be in very high demand. And as far as players running exclusively proto in you infinite everything scenario, yes there will be proto Assaults, Proto Logis, Proto Sentinels, Proto Commandos, Proto Scouts. With an incredible variety of fittings adapted to an incredible variety of roles. I can make 50 million in eve in a few minutes. Losing 150 proto suits is nothing to an eve corp.
Annotation this is the work of a single player, even at a 10 to 1 trade ratio thats 5 million isk enough for 10 protos with change.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14400
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Posted - 2014.04.29 04:47:00 -
[13] - Quote
Vell0cet wrote:
There is certainly an exchange rate to factor in, remember. I believe the player-run exchanges were operating around 10:1 ratio. Making 500 mill in EVE would require a significant amount of time.
not really... noob with no skills can earn that in 2 weeks.
Imagine what well oiled wallet mongers make...
BTW economical warfare in eve is freakishly scary; do not get involved in one.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
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Posted - 2014.04.29 04:59:00 -
[14] - Quote
Another fantasy to break is how cheap your suits would be if they where player provided.
we're talking 10 isk, not 10 hundred, 10 thousand or million; just 10 a pop. Unpopular ones will dip further and may become refine fodder; the specialists would likely gain most popularity capping at 1k a piece.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
14409
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Posted - 2014.04.29 08:15:00 -
[15] - Quote
Lynn Beck wrote:Vrain Matari wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Another fantasy to break is how cheap your suits would be if they where player provided.
we're talking 10 isk, not 10 hundred, 10 thousand or million; just 10 a pop. Unpopular ones will dip further and may become refine fodder; the specialists would likely gain most popularity capping at 1k a piece. And here i thought the refine value if a suit would be determined by it's mineral inputs. Maybe you got a nice perpetual motion machine you wanna try and sell us while you're at it? Suppliers always keep a stock of an item, if an item becomes too unpopular, the supplier/producer will refine the spares to make room for the new popular item.
Stoll doesnt help auto targeters...
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