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Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 4	Posted - 2013.10.31 19:20:00 - [1] - Quote As the title says, this is just to be a discussion about the pro's or con's of implementing such a thing in DUST514. I personally do not care one way or the other, but I can see a benefit to doing it. So to start off the discussion, here's the premise. Currently CCP has been giving us respecs due to the fact that they keep drastically overhauling the skill point system as well as adding new equipment and categories to the game. It is probable that after the vehicle changes they will do another of these "free" respecs as well as when all racial varients of dropsuits (ie. every race has heavy, medium, and light dropsuits) as well as racial varients of vehicles (ie. not just Caldari and Galente LAVs, HAVs, and dropships). Obviously this may be some time before all these things are integrated into the game. But once that happens, then the free respecs will also be done. So in a DUST514 universe where free respecs are no longer available, would you desire to have respecs for Aurum? In this concept, a player is paying real money, via Aurum, to do a complete respec of the skills on one of their characters. If we were to desire such a thing, then some of the following questions may result: 1 - How much should an Aurum respec cost? 2 - How often should they be allowed to happen per character? 3 - Should free respecs ever be allowed again? 4 - Should a respec be "bankable?" 5 - How might this affect the fiction or back story of the game (if we care)? So here are some of my opinions on this: 1 - Well at today's standards, using the bonus 25k AUR you get for buying a bulk purchase of AUR, it comes to about 22.5AUR = $0.01. Now for comparison's sake, in EVE Online they use the PLEX as a unit of payment of a lot of account services. So one plex is about $19.95 or less if you buy in bulk. So this would be $19.95 X 22.5 AUR/cent = 44887.5 AUR. So let's round to a nicer value of 40,000 AUR for a respec. 2 - I would limit them to be onely once per month. Meaning that the month counter doesn't start until you USE the respec. So you purchase a respec (no counter yet), you activate the respec (all skill points get reset and the timer now starts). The reason being that it would prevent possible abuses but still allow for flexibility. 3 - Once a pay scheme is administered for this sort of thing, then I do not believe that free respecs should be allowed anymore. It would "cheapen" the respecs for those who paid money for them. On the other hand, in EVE online they allow for a free stat change once every year. Perhaps awarding one free respec to a character once a year (not to be bankable) would be ok. 4 - In EVE online they allow stat resets once a year and they also allow them to be bankable, meaning that if you don't use it this year, you can save it for next year and have two or more. I think they cap it at like 3 such resets. Honestly, I see no problem with banking multiple paid for respecs (not the free ones if they are allowed) as long as there is a time limit (ie. the one month one I suggested in #2 above). This also could later be factored into trading/selling characters (within the bounds of the EULA) later on. 5 - Background and storyline? Most don't care about this stuff. But for those that do, it could be explained by the idea that skill and muscle memories are implanted in the clones when they are designed. This would mean that the basic skills are in the clones for some of the stuff, but how to use them and the experience to use them proper is not. However due to the expense of redesigning a clone to use a different skill set or competency, it limits how fast a new redesigned clone could be created and thus the one month limit. Or make up whatever story you like. ;) So seriously, discuss as I know my opinions are the only ones on here. Hell the idea may be a horrible one to some of you, to others it may be what makes the game more playable. Or for people like my you may not care one way or the other. I know I couldn't have thought of or covered every aspect of this topic, so tell me about what you thought of that I didn't. Who knows, maybe the devs are reading this stuff for ideas to steal from us in future updates.
Vespasian Andendare Subsonic Synthesis 531	Posted - 2013.10.31 19:21:00 - [2] - Quote Surely, you could have contributed this discussion to a literally countless number of other respec threads out there. >> Play Dust 514 FREE! Sign up for exclusive gear today! <<
Kira Lannister Ancient Exiles 1747	Posted - 2013.10.31 19:21:00 - [3] - Quote Please don't. "The Ancient Templars will guard fearlessly the people, the land and the heavens of the empire." Book of Exiles 1:3
Rynoceros Rise Of Old Dudes 1134	Posted - 2013.10.31 19:22:00 - [4] - Quote Kira Lannister wrote: Please don't. Steve Guttenberg Lives!
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 4	Posted - 2013.10.31 19:39:00 - [5] - Quote Kira Lannister wrote: Please don't. I've heard this before... Please elaborate on your reasoning. I'm all ears. ;)
bear90211 Nyain San Proficiency V. 38	Posted - 2013.10.31 19:42:00 - [6] - Quote if you didnt think ahead before you bought and used aurum, then your a dumbass. this is not the end of loss, but just the beginning.
Cosgar ParagonX 6959	Posted - 2013.10.31 19:45:00 - [7] - Quote If this is a full respec, you should have to give up 25% of your lifetime SP. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 4	Posted - 2013.10.31 19:48:00 - [8] - Quote bear90211 wrote: if you didnt think ahead before you bought and used aurum, then your a dumbass. this is not the end of loss, but just the beginning. I'm not certain if I fully understand the intent of your response. But I think I get the gist of it. I personally do not need or require a respec. Hell, once they do the future revamps and add in all the new stuffs, I still wouldn't care if I ddin't get one. Why? Because like you I planned ahead and did a little research before spending my skill points on the stuff that I did. So why did I make this posting? Because more and more in public matches I hear squad and team-mates complaining about how they want a respec and when is the next respec. Some hate taht they wasted their points on a vehicle that is now somewhat worthless to the goals that they originally intended. Other found that a weapon they originally enjoyed is now nerfed and no longer fun. Others still just didn't understand the skills when they bought them. So in the interests of trying to maintain the number of satisfied players in the game while retaining the older/veteran ones, would respecs for AUR be a good or a bad idea?
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 4	Posted - 2013.10.31 19:51:00 - [9] - Quote Cosgar wrote: If this is a full respec, you should have to give up 25% of your lifetime SP. An interesting idea. I know in EVE Online, if you are killed while in a clone that is not fully up to date, then you can loose a percentage of your skill points. Since there is no clone upkeep mechanism in DUST514, maybe this would be a way to accomplish that style of skill point "sink." But if there is a 25% loss, do you also mean that there should be no AUR cost for the respec? So the idea would be that if a player doesn't want to pay AUR for a monthly respec, then they can instead pay 25% of their current skill point total to get one? Would this idea still be compatible with the respecs for AUR? Interesting ideas...
Niuvo NECROM0NGERS 689	Posted - 2013.10.31 19:51:00 - [10] - Quote I would like to only take away sp on mistakes I've done. I would like to take away sp from some skills. Reduce a skill from say 5 to level 3. Or from level 3 to 0.

Cosgar ParagonX 6959	Posted - 2013.10.31 19:58:00 - [11] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: Cosgar wrote: If this is a full respec, you should have to give up 25% of your lifetime SP. An interesting idea. I know in EVE Online, if you are killed while in a clone that is not fully up to date, then you can loose a percentage of your skill points. Since there is no clone upkeep mechanism in DUST514, maybe this would be a way to accomplish that style of skill point "sink." But if there is a 25% loss, do you also mean that there should be no AUR cost for the respec? So the idea would be that if a player doesn't want to pay AUR for a monthly respec, then they can instead pay 25% of their current skill point total to get one? Would this idea still be compatible with the respecs for AUR? Interesting ideas... I'm leaning towards the direction of respecs just costing ISK and AUR. But whether we ever get them or not, new players should be allowed to respec any time they want in the academy and a mandatory one upon graduation. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
gbghg L.O.T.I.S. Public Disorder. 4001	Posted - 2013.10.31 20:05:00 - [12] - Quote No, respecs should not be made available at all, the only, and i repeat only time that something like that should happen is when they overhaul the skill tree, if only certain skills are being changed then refund the sp in that skill if the change requires it, putting in a pay to respec scheme skips a little too close to the p2w line imo. sp investment is significant, you should not be able to just wipe it away whenever, if well timed it have serious repercussions in a pc battle, it will enable those who pay aur to respec into whatever is the current FOTM gear, effectively turning it into a p2w cycle. an eve saying comes to mind, no sp is wasted, a 100,000 you dump into a useless skill might end up saving you a lot of time if you later decide to switch to a role that gets usage out of that skill. Lv 4 forum warrior Bringer of Bacon Knight of AMV's
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 4	Posted - 2013.10.31 20:06:00 - [13] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Jadd Hatchen wrote: Cosgar wrote: If this is a full respec, you should have to give up 25% of your lifetime SP. An interesting idea. I know in EVE Online, if you are killed while in a clone that is not fully up to date, then you can loose a percentage of your skill points. Since there is no clone upkeep mechanism in DUST514, maybe this would be a way to accomplish that style of skill point "sink." But if there is a 25% loss, do you also mean that there should be no AUR cost for the respec? So the idea would be that if a player doesn't want to pay AUR for a monthly respec, then they can instead pay 25% of their current skill point total to get one? Would this idea still be compatible with the respecs for AUR? Interesting ideas... I'm leaning towards the direction of respecs just costing ISK and AUR. But whether we ever get them or not, new players should be allowed to respec any time they want in the academy and a mandatory one upon graduation. Wow, yeah. That's actually a very good point that I'm hoping a dev is reading... Newbies have no idea what to spend skill points on when they first start and shouldn't be penalized for experimenting. So maybe provide them with an optional free respec upon "graduating" the academy stuff.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 4841	Posted - 2013.10.31 20:11:00 - [14] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: Kira Lannister wrote: Please don't. I've heard this before... Please elaborate on your reasoning. I'm all ears. ;) He just posts that phrase for the hell of it. But still, this is an old ass topic that will continue until the end of time. I bet you 500,000,000 ISK that 10 years now you and I will still see "we want a respec" threads all over the place. CCP, please fix the Nova Knives. Thank you.
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 4	Posted - 2013.10.31 20:11:00 - [15] - Quote gbghg wrote: No, respecs should not be made available at all, the only, and i repeat only time that something like that should happen is when they overhaul the skill tree, if only certain skills are being changed then refund the sp in that skill if the change requires it, putting in a pay to respec scheme skips a little too close to the p2w line imo. sp investment is significant, you should not be able to just wipe it away whenever, if well timed it have serious repercussions in a pc battle, it will enable those who pay aur to respec into whatever is the current FOTM gear, effectively turning it into a p2w cycle. an eve saying comes to mind, no sp is wasted, a 100,000 you dump into a useless skill might end up saving you a lot of time if you later decide to switch to a role that gets usage out of that skill. And being an EVE player I agree with you on this. In my mind, given enough time, my DUST toon will one day be able to use most proto gear taht I care about using while being able to use the advanced versions of almost everything in the game at some point (maybe years from now, but whatever). So while people complain about how one weapon or vehicle gets nerfed, I just point out that it all goes in cycles. Today it may be bad, but give it enough time and it will become useful again. But in a world of console gaming, is it reasonable to assume that players will stick with this game that long if they are unable to correct the mistakes that they made at the start?
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 4841	Posted - 2013.10.31 20:15:00 - [16] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: But in a world of console gaming, is it reasonable to assume that players will stick with this game that long if they are unable to correct the mistakes that they made at the start? But here's the thing though. Console gaming is changing and so is the culture. How can one be certain that respecs are ever going to be needed once the culture has changed? CCP, please fix the Nova Knives. Thank you.
gbghg L.O.T.I.S. Public Disorder. 4001	Posted - 2013.10.31 20:17:00 - [17] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: gbghg wrote: No, respecs should not be made available at all, the only, and i repeat only time that something like that should happen is when they overhaul the skill tree, if only certain skills are being changed then refund the sp in that skill if the change requires it, putting in a pay to respec scheme skips a little too close to the p2w line imo. sp investment is significant, you should not be able to just wipe it away whenever, if well timed it have serious repercussions in a pc battle, it will enable those who pay aur to respec into whatever is the current FOTM gear, effectively turning it into a p2w cycle. an eve saying comes to mind, no sp is wasted, a 100,000 you dump into a useless skill might end up saving you a lot of time if you later decide to switch to a role that gets usage out of that skill. And being an EVE player I agree with you on this. In my mind, given enough time, my DUST toon will one day be able to use most proto gear taht I care about using while being able to use the advanced versions of almost everything in the game at some point (maybe years from now, but whatever). So while people complain about how one weapon or vehicle gets nerfed, I just point out that it all goes in cycles. Today it may be bad, but give it enough time and it will become useful again. But in a world of console gaming, is it reasonable to assume that players will stick with this game that long if they are unable to correct the mistakes that they made at the start? depends on the player tbh, i know alot of people have gotten fed up with the skill system on this game, but then a lot of people like me like it how it is, its a very RPg system where your stats do matter so you better be sure you know what you're doing with them, apart from say 1 optional respec that all new characters get because they're learning the skill system (thats an idea i have some support for) there should be no sp respecs or refunds unless CCP themselves are changing skills radicially enough to warrant it. as a F2P title dust needs to walk a very fine line in regard to paid items and i fear that paid respecs have the potential to be abused and cross that line. Lv 4 forum warrior Bringer of Bacon Knight of AMV's
Kain Spero MoIden Heath PoIice Department EoN. 2192	Posted - 2013.10.31 20:18:00 - [18] - Quote I have no issues with a respec being sold for AUR. Personally I would rather see something like a 2 or so month cool down rather than a SP penalty. Maybe an SP penalty is okay, but loosing SP that you likely paid for to then pay to reallocate SP feels off. I think it would make sense to allow 1 free respec every 12 months and also give an optional respec to new players at around the 30 day mark. Around the 40,000 AUR mark seems to make sense. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 4	Posted - 2013.10.31 20:18:00 - [19] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Jadd Hatchen wrote: But in a world of console gaming, is it reasonable to assume that players will stick with this game that long if they are unable to correct the mistakes that they made at the start? But here's the thing though. Console gaming is changing and so is the culture. How can one be certain that respecs are ever going to be needed once the culture has changed? Good point. How does one predict what will maintain the viability of a game of this type in order to ensure enough of a player base to keep it alive and thriving in the years to come? So why not build in the flexibility to allow players to respec their toons to match the changes as they come?
Cosgar ParagonX 6962	Posted - 2013.10.31 20:23:00 - [20] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: Cosgar wrote: Jadd Hatchen wrote: Cosgar wrote: If this is a full respec, you should have to give up 25% of your lifetime SP. An interesting idea. I know in EVE Online, if you are killed while in a clone that is not fully up to date, then you can loose a percentage of your skill points. Since there is no clone upkeep mechanism in DUST514, maybe this would be a way to accomplish that style of skill point "sink." But if there is a 25% loss, do you also mean that there should be no AUR cost for the respec? So the idea would be that if a player doesn't want to pay AUR for a monthly respec, then they can instead pay 25% of their current skill point total to get one? Would this idea still be compatible with the respecs for AUR? Interesting ideas... I'm leaning towards the direction of respecs just costing ISK and AUR. But whether we ever get them or not, new players should be allowed to respec any time they want in the academy and a mandatory one upon graduation. Wow, yeah. That's actually a very good point that I'm hoping a dev is reading... Newbies have no idea what to spend skill points on when they first start and shouldn't be penalized for experimenting. So maybe provide them with an optional free respec upon "graduating" the academy stuff. Pretty much. They got things sort of right with the academy the first time around. Having a safe little sandbox for newberries to get a feel for the game was only a temporary solution since matchmaking wasn't their top priority but could have been built upon to enhance new player experience. Looking at how things are now, people curse out blueberries, but a lot of them really should still be in the academy because they literally don't know any better. I proposed my ideas before, but I'll post them here to in case if a Dev is reading: -100,000 WP or 5,000,000 SP needed to graduate. (Whichever happens first) -Make public battles available after 25,000 WP while still enrolled in the academy to gauge skill level. -Ban anything above standard and basic gear in academy battles. -Starter fits of every specialized militia frame with militia variants of all existing weapons to encourage role diversity. -Unlimited and free respecs while enrolled in the academy with no penalty. -Add tutorial based secondary objectives that teach basic skills like menus, using equipment and vehicles with rewards. -Accelerated SP gain until 5,000,00 SP with no weekly cap whether in the academy or not. -Free and mandatory respec upon graduation with a prompt reminding the player that there will be no more respecs. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"

Disturbingly Bored The Strontium Asylum 944	Posted - 2013.10.31 20:31:00 - [21] - Quote Not bad, OP. Not enough to convince me resets for AUR is okay, but I like the limits you placed on it. My favorite respec idea is, and always will be, DUST Fiend's slow rolling respec idea: You get one bankable respec point per week. One respec point undoes a single rank of a single skill. That way it's a balanced, gradual process, and you can't just hop on the FoTM every month once the patch notes come out. I thought it was a brilliant idea, gotta give the dude credit. ¶Gêƒ__ Gò« Gû¿GûêGûêGûêGòáGëíGëíGëíGû¬ « GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GåÆFAT GATGåÉ pÇûGûôGûôGûôGûôGûôGûôGûôGûôGûôGûæpÇùForum Warrior LV 0 (900/1000XP) ¯Gò¦pÇôpÇù
howard sanchez DUST University Ivy League 806	Posted - 2013.10.31 20:37:00 - [22] - Quote Things I like about Respec for Aurum: gives players a choice, gives CCP income Things I dont like about respec for Aurum: adds to the Pay to Win argument Comment: if CCP allows players to sell Aurum for isk ( the way they do with Plex) this could help to reduce the P2W contention
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 5	Posted - 2013.10.31 21:00:00 - [23] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Pretty much. They got things sort of right with the academy the first time around. Having a safe little sandbox for newberries to get a feel for the game was only a temporary solution since matchmaking wasn't their top priority but could have been built upon to enhance new player experience. Looking at how things are now, people curse out blueberries, but a lot of them really should still be in the academy because they literally don't know any better. I proposed my ideas before, but I'll post them here to in case if a Dev is reading: -100,000 WP or 5,000,000 SP needed to graduate. (Whichever happens first) -Make public battles available after 25,000 WP while still enrolled in the academy to gauge skill level. -Ban anything above standard and basic gear in academy battles. -Starter fits of every specialized militia frame with militia variants of all existing weapons to encourage role diversity. -Unlimited and free respecs while enrolled in the academy with no penalty. -Add tutorial based secondary objectives that teach basic skills like menus, using equipment and vehicles with rewards. -Accelerated SP gain until 5,000,00 SP with no weekly cap whether in the academy or not. -Free and mandatory respec upon graduation with a prompt reminding the player that there will be no more respecs. Those are all good ideas for new players. My only problem with making all starter fits available or with the overall combination of all these things is that it may give a new player the wrong impression. When they start off having all these thing and possibilities available and then graduate to a more limited environment, then they may become dissatisfied. Then again I could be wrong and making something out of nothing.
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 5	Posted - 2013.10.31 21:06:00 - [24] - Quote Disturbingly Bored wrote: Not bad, OP. Not enough to convince me resets for AUR is okay, but I like the limits you placed on it. My favorite respec idea is, and always will be, DUST Fiend's slow rolling respec idea: You get one bankable respec point per week. One respec point undoes a single rank of a single skill. That way it's a balanced, gradual process, and you can't just hop on the FoTM every month once the patch notes come out. I thought it was a brilliant idea, gotta give the dude credit. Yeah that is a cool idea. It may be difficult to implement. Also slower than doing an AUR respec every 1 or 2 months. However after banking enough points, it still can amount to a full respec after enough time is accrued. But I like the shorter term effects of being able to "erase" mistakes if a player discovers that they do not like something after trying it out for a while. One possible "abuse" is the idea that one point of a x2 multiplier skill is not the same as one point of a x5 multiplier skill. Similarly, refunding one point of a level 5 skill is not the same as refunding one point of a level 1 skill. Refunding level one of a low multiplier skill could end up being only 15,000 skill points, while refunding level 5 of a x5 multiplier skill could end up refunding over a million skill points. The second would have a much more vast effect than the first.
Oswald Rehnquist Abandoned Privilege General Tso's Alliance 376	Posted - 2013.10.31 21:09:00 - [25] - Quote I personally think 1) It should cost 100,000 aurm 2) It should make you lose 30% of your total SP Below 28 dB
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 5	Posted - 2013.10.31 21:11:00 - [26] - Quote howard sanchez wrote: Things I like about Respec for Aurum: gives players a choice, gives CCP income Things I dont like about respec for Aurum: adds to the Pay to Win argument Comment: if CCP allows players to sell Aurum for isk ( the way they do with Plex) this could help to reduce the P2W contention While one day (meaning possibly never or at least years from now) the idea of AUR for ISK may become possible, I don't see it happening now. In the (hopefully) nearish future, CCP wants to somehow combine the ISK markets in EVE with that of DUST514. If that happens, then if you allow players to buy AUR with ISK, then it would give an undue advantage to EVE funded DUST'ies who would just farm ISK in EVE and use it to purchase AUR in DUST. The incentive to purchase AUR with money would become lost.
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 5	Posted - 2013.10.31 21:17:00 - [27] - Quote Oswald Rehnquist wrote: I personally think 1) It should cost 100,000 aurm 2) It should make you lose 30% of your total SP So you are saying that it should not only cost AUR, but also skillpoints... As someone else already pointed out, skill point accrual can be equated to AUR expenditure for boosters that earn you skill points faster anyways. So in a way some players are already paying AUR for skill points (at least to get them faster). So if skill points can be equated to AUR, the by making a respec cost both AUR and skill points are you not just saying that it should just cost more AUR? To say this more simply... Let's say (I don't have real numbers) that 30% of a character's skill points were gotten by using both passive and active boosters that were purchased with AUR. So in your above example: 1) They pay the 100,000 AUR. 2) They pay the 30% skill points which originally cost them more AUR from the boosters that they used. So the total is 100,000 AUR + the AUR spent on boosters. So why not just simplify and give a solely AUR based cost instead?
Kahn Zo R 0 N 1 N 35	Posted - 2013.10.31 22:02:00 - [28] - Quote Great write up Jadd. I hope the devs looked at it. I am all favor for respec with a isk cost. No problem. It could be scaled to how much SP you have for isk cost instead of a % off sp as well. The vets who have sp in the millions will not effect, they have bank and will continue to do so. The newberries, just starter uppers need to catch up with the times, changes, etc. As the dust, eve world evolves, so should the lil minions with little penalty, cost. It is the puppet masters who keep switching it up, We are just trying to catch up. You deserve what you tolerate
Oswald Rehnquist Abandoned Privilege General Tso's Alliance 376	Posted - 2013.10.31 22:29:00 - [29] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: Oswald Rehnquist wrote: I personally think 1) It should cost 100,000 aurm 2) It should make you lose 30% of your total SP So you are saying that it should not only cost AUR, but also skillpoints... As someone else already pointed out, skill point accrual can be equated to AUR expenditure for boosters that earn you skill points faster anyways. So in a way some players are already paying AUR for skill points (at least to get them faster). So if skill points can be equated to AUR, the by making a respec cost both AUR and skill points are you not just saying that it should just cost more AUR? To say this more simply... Let's say (I don't have real numbers) that 30% of a character's skill points were gotten by using both passive and active boosters that were purchased with AUR. So in your above example: 1) They pay the 100,000 AUR. 2) They pay the 30% skill points which originally cost them more AUR from the boosters that they used. So the total is 100,000 AUR + the AUR spent on boosters. So why not just simplify and give a solely AUR based cost instead? If you are doing that, I would it rather it cost no aur and be at a 60% reduction in total sp Below 28 dB
R F Gyro Clones 4u 602	Posted - 2013.10.31 22:48:00 - [30] - Quote I'd prefer not to see respecs at all as I think they devalue the investment we all make in our mercs, which in turn takes away one of the key differentiators of Dust. That said, I understand why they may be appropriate when CCP make wholesale changes to the skills structure of the game. I guess I could also support a (partial) respec system that preserves the investment somehow. For example, it might be possible to "untrain" levels of skills, which would return a portion (60% maybe?) of the SP spent, as an accelerator to SP earned. For example, if you spent 320K SP on level 5 of a skill, untraining it would double your SP earning rate until you'd earned back an extra 192K SP. I can imagine an Aurum booster that reduces the proportion of the SP that is lost, and I can also imagine CCP dynamically changing the loss % for specific skills in specific situations: setting the loss to only 15% on vehicle skills after a vehicle rebalance, for example. RF Gyro: 12.5% damage bonus; 10.5% rate of fire bonus

Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 7	Posted - 2013.11.04 17:55:00 - [31] - Quote R F Gyro wrote: I'd prefer not to see respecs at all as I think they devalue the investment we all make in our mercs, which in turn takes away one of the key differentiators of Dust. That said, I understand why they may be appropriate when CCP make wholesale changes to the skills structure of the game. I guess I could also support a (partial) respec system that preserves the investment somehow. For example, it might be possible to "untrain" levels of skills, which would return a portion (60% maybe?) of the SP spent, as an accelerator to SP earned. For example, if you spent 320K SP on level 5 of a skill, untraining it would double your SP earning rate until you'd earned back an extra 192K SP. I can imagine an Aurum booster that reduces the proportion of the SP that is lost, and I can also imagine CCP dynamically changing the loss % for specific skills in specific situations: setting the loss to only 15% on vehicle skills after a vehicle rebalance, for example. Well I would hope that after the next couple huge rebalances that they plan to do this year, they will be done fingers crossed with all the major rebalances like that and thus the need for "free respecs" will also be done. Again, I believe that loosing % skillpoints for a respec is akin to loosing aurum for a respec in this world where you can purchase boosters that give you bonuses for skillpoints to begin with. (See above discussions for this reasoning.) Myabe in this case we put an AUR value per skillpoint being unspent? Like 1 AUR for every 10 skillpoints being unspent. So that in your case of unspending just the level 5 of a skill that cost 320k skillpoints, that would be 32k AUR. Or the the numbers could be 1 AUR for 100 SP which results in 3.2k AUR for the above example. But in such a system a limit would be needed to prevent abuse, so like a 1 million SP limit per month in this sort of system? In either rate, any of these systems (other than the full respec) would be difficult to implement as I get the impression that they are doing the current bonus SP stuff almost manually. As in they run a script over a database of what occurred the previous day/week and then review it for obvious mistakes during downtimes to award bonuses that don't occur immediately. So the realities of implimentation may strike down many of these awesome ideas that people are coming up with.
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 8	Posted - 2013.11.04 22:56:00 - [32] - Quote Oswald Rehnquist wrote: If you are doing that, I would it rather it cost no aur and be at a 60% reduction in total sp So people are really ready to advocate for the loss of skill points when it comes to respecs a lot. But I'm pretty sure the same people wouldn't be a fan of loosing skill points if they lost x number of clones. What I mean is in EVE Online if you do not pay enough ISK to keep your clone grade up to date to hold all your skill points, then if you loose your clone (ie die), then you loose a percentage of your skill points based on the difference of what your clone grade is able to hold and how many skill points you had when you died. These skill points are then deducted from your last skill that was trained to level 5 (or which ever skill was trained to the highest level you posses whther that be level 4, 3, or whatever). So I wonder, would the same people advocating for loss of skill points during respecs also be in favor of a system where you loose skillpoints for dying a lot?
ELITE INQUISITOR Eternal Beings 7	Posted - 2013.11.05 17:55:00 - [33] - Quote Money bought respecs are a benefit to online games both free and paid for. Look at Dcu online. If a person wants to pay to spec into something else they feel is a better suit for their playing style then let them. It's a brilliant idea. If you accept your limitations you go beyond them
N7 Operative Anthony WarRavens League of Infamy 5	Posted - 2013.11.05 18:20:00 - [34] - Quote Cosgar wrote: If this is a full respec, you should have to give up 25% of your lifetime SP. Hell no
Cosgar ParagonX 7337	Posted - 2013.11.05 18:27:00 - [35] - Quote N7 Operative Anthony wrote: Cosgar wrote: If this is a full respec, you should have to give up 25% of your lifetime SP. Hell no You have to give something up to get something. It's the way the world works. Or you could just use that infinite amount of lifetime SP you get to spec into another role while keeping the one you have. You don't need proto to play a new specialization on the first day. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 9	Posted - 2013.11.06 21:45:00 - [36] - Quote ELITE INQUISITOR wrote: Money bought respecs are a benefit to online games both free and paid for. Look at Dcu online. If a person wants to pay to spec into something else they feel is a better suit for their playing style then let them. It's a brilliant idea. I agree to an extent. However it has been brought up that this is akin to "pay to win" or at least very close to it. I could see an abuse for this if it was allowed to happen anytime someone wanted it to happen, but I also suggested that placing some kind of time-limit ot how often it would be possible to do so would prevent such an abuse. So the question is, does paying for a respec become a pay to win strategy?
low genius The Sound Of Freedom Renegade Alliance 829	Posted - 2013.11.06 21:47:00 - [37] - Quote I think it's a terrible idea to have a respec in any fashion. doesn't matter what you lose, or what you spend, it's still a bad idea. it takes away the weight of your decisions, and it compounds small balance problems within the game. no respecs. ever.
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 676	Posted - 2013.11.06 21:47:00 - [38] - Quote You realize that this would make the game p2w right? At least make an ISK respec (that doesn't cost something ridiculously high like 50m) There there Mr. Scout and Ms. Heavy, don't cry You'll still be useful in my eyes
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 9	Posted - 2013.11.06 21:48:00 - [39] - Quote Cosgar wrote: N7 Operative Anthony wrote: Cosgar wrote: If this is a full respec, you should have to give up 25% of your lifetime SP. Hell no You have to give something up to get something. It's the way the world works. Or you could just use that infinite amount of lifetime SP you get to spec into another role while keeping the one you have. You don't need proto to play a new specialization on the first day. I agree that you have to give up something to get something else. However the premise of the AUR for respec idea is that you are paying (giving up real life money) for the respec and thus giving up money in exchange for it already. Additionaly, it's been pointed out that bonus SP can be purchased already via boosters, so askign for a SP reduction only equates to paying more AUR for the respec. So why not just pay more AUR from the get go instead?
low genius The Sound Of Freedom Renegade Alliance 830	Posted - 2013.11.06 21:49:00 - [40] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: Cosgar wrote: If this is a full respec, you should have to give up 25% of your lifetime SP. An interesting idea. I know in EVE Online, if you are killed while in a clone that is not fully up to date, then you can loose a percentage of your skill points. Since there is no clone upkeep mechanism in DUST514, maybe this would be a way to accomplish that style of skill point "sink." But if there is a 25% loss, do you also mean that there should be no AUR cost for the respec? So the idea would be that if a player doesn't want to pay AUR for a monthly respec, then they can instead pay 25% of their current skill point total to get one? Would this idea still be compatible with the respecs for AUR? Interesting ideas... in eve you don't lose a percentage of you sp. you lose your biggest skill. even if it took you 2 months to get. it's gone, and gone forever.

low genius The Sound Of Freedom Renegade Alliance 830	Posted - 2013.11.06 21:50:00 - [41] - Quote howard sanchez wrote: Things I like about Respec for Aurum: gives players a choice, gives CCP income Things I dont like about respec for Aurum: adds to the Pay to Win argument Comment: if CCP allows players to sell Aurum for isk ( the way they do with Plex) this could help to reduce the P2W contention you can already sell aurum for isk within eve.
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 9	Posted - 2013.11.06 21:51:00 - [42] - Quote low genius wrote: in eve you don't lose a percentage of you sp. you lose your biggest skill. even if it took you 2 months to get. it's gone, and gone forever. Ok, I could be wrong about the percentage thing, but it does loose you the "biggest skill" ie. the last skill trained to level 5 (or if you have no level 5 skills the last one trained to level 4, etc.). You loose those SP forever, however the skill can still be trained back, so I'm not certain where you are getting the "gone forever" part from.
low genius The Sound Of Freedom Renegade Alliance 830	Posted - 2013.11.06 21:52:00 - [43] - Quote ELITE INQUISITOR wrote: Money bought respecs are a benefit to online games both free and paid for. Look at Dcu online. If a person wants to pay to spec into something else they feel is a better suit for their playing style then let them. It's a brilliant idea. dcou is terrible, and broken. it went free to play about 2 weeks after we all bought a disk that we can't sell. f dcou.
low genius The Sound Of Freedom Renegade Alliance 830	Posted - 2013.11.06 21:53:00 - [44] - Quote Atiim wrote: You realize that this would make the game p2w right? At least make an ISK respec (that doesn't cost something ridiculously high like 50m) it would be far more than 50mil.
low genius The Sound Of Freedom Renegade Alliance 830	Posted - 2013.11.06 21:56:00 - [45] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: low genius wrote: in eve you don't lose a percentage of you sp. you lose your biggest skill. even if it took you 2 months to get. it's gone, and gone forever. Ok, I could be wrong about the percentage thing, but it does loose you the "biggest skill" ie. the last skill trained to level 5 (or if you have no level 5 skills the last one trained to level 4, etc.). You loose those SP forever, however the skill can still be trained back, so I'm not certain where you are getting the "gone forever" part from. because you're never getting those two months back. it seems like you're trying to play both sides. you guys are more than welcome to train new skills. moreover ccp is giving you nearly a million sp this week so they don't have to read a bunch of qq respec threads. lastly, a respec would be game-breaking. the lore dictates, and if the lore isn't important to you you're more than welcome to go play some 'title' that will last for 2 months and be replaced by it's sequel.
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 677	Posted - 2013.11.06 21:57:00 - [46] - Quote low genius wrote: I think it's a terrible idea to have a respec in any fashion. doesn't matter what you lose, or what you spend, it's still a bad idea. it takes away the weight of your decisions, and it compounds small balance problems within the game. no respecs. ever. Do you know how long it would take to complete all the skill books? If you spend 2mil SP on something, just to have it changed a few weeks later, before everyone else, then no it should matter what you use. What if I made everything you had useless? Nope don't be upset your SP and time doesn't matter at all There there Mr. Scout and Ms. Heavy, don't cry You'll still be useful in my eyes
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 678	Posted - 2013.11.06 22:00:00 - [47] - Quote low genius wrote: Atiim wrote: You realize that this would make the game p2w right? At least make an ISK respec (that doesn't cost something ridiculously high like 50m) it would be far more than 50mil. No. You do realize that only 100 people would be able afford that right? But.. Screw time and investment I should just throw cash at my PS3 There there Mr. Scout and Ms. Heavy, don't cry You'll still be useful in my eyes
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 9	Posted - 2013.11.06 22:01:00 - [48] - Quote Atiim wrote: You realize that this would make the game p2w right? At least make an ISK respec (that doesn't cost something ridiculously high like 50m) First off, using ISK to pay for a respec is a new idea for this discussion. As such I believe it deserves some discussion. The immediate problem I see with using ISK to pay for a respec is that it would have to be a very large sum (even more than the 50 million you propose). In EVE onine a 30 pliot's liscence extension (30 day of game time) is approximately 600 million isk on the current market. So I would think that would be a more appropriate starting point. This would need to be the starting point for a respec cost in ISK because in the future they will be merging the markets and such things would need to be equated somehow or else people would transfer ISK from EVE to toons in DUST to buy respecs all the time. Now assuming that respecs (whether they cost AUR or ISK) should have a time-limit imposed upon them to prevent any kind of abuse, then I still don't quite see your claim of p2w. Right now I can pay for bonus skill points using boosters. This is currently part of the accepted gameplay. Why? Because there is still a skill point cap per week that limits the amount of extra skill points anyone can purchase over time. Similarly, respecs would be limited by time. So I'm still trying to see where this becomes p2w? I'm not saying that it is or is not, but just trying to understand where the notion that it is pay to win is coming from.
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 9	Posted - 2013.11.06 22:07:00 - [49] - Quote Atiim wrote: [quote=low genius]No. You do realize that only 100 people would be able afford that right? But.. Screw time and investment I should just throw cash at my PS3 Um actually there are a lot of "rich" DUST players out there. I'm pretty sure that there are more than 1000 people that could afford 50 million ISK if it came down to that. And I agree that time is an investment and not everyone can be perfectly right the first time they spend points on things in a game that is vastly more complicated than others like it currently. So the question becomes, is it ok for those people that are willing to pay for a respec (whether in ISK or AUR) to be allowed to do so?
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 9	Posted - 2013.11.06 22:13:00 - [50] - Quote Atiim wrote: Do you know how long it would take to complete all the skill books? If you spend 2mil SP on something, just to have it changed a few weeks later, before everyone else, then no it should matter what you use. What if I made everything you had useless? Nope don't be upset your SP and time doesn't matter at all According to this article: http://www.vg247.com/2012/08/15/dust-514-learning-all-skills-will-take-7-years-says-ccp/ It would take 7 years to do so currently. But by then they will have added new equipment, new weapons, new vehicles etc. so that it would be even more in the future. At any rate, does paying for a respec = p2w? If it does, then what kinda limitations would be needed to prevent it? As for nerfs hurting things in the game and creating new meta or FOTM's, the hope is that after CCP finally figures out how to properly balance a lot of the current mainstay items of the game, then this sort of need to respec due to a rebalance will go away. So in that future DUST universe, would you still want to allow people to be able to pay for a respec?

Zahle Undt Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 407	Posted - 2013.11.06 22:14:00 - [51] - Quote Real money for respecs = pay to be FOTM which is essentially pay 2 win which would be very bad for the game
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 9	Posted - 2013.11.06 23:11:00 - [52] - Quote Zahle Undt wrote: Real money for respecs = pay to be FOTM which is essentially pay 2 win which would be very bad for the game I can just as easily just pay for a booster and use those added skillpoints to skill into the FOTM. What's the difference?
Zahle Undt Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 408	Posted - 2013.11.06 23:20:00 - [53] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: Zahle Undt wrote: Real money for respecs = pay to be FOTM which is essentially pay 2 win which would be very bad for the game I can just as easily just pay for a booster and use those added skill points to skill into the FOTM. What's the difference? You actually have to play the game as well with the booster. Also if you max out weekly with 30 days active and passive boosters both you get little over 2.3 million SP which gets you proto in a new suit or maxes out 1 new weapon. An Aurum respec lets you completely rearrange what could be what about 27 - 30 million SP for some people right now? That's a big difference
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 10	Posted - 2013.11.07 16:38:00 - [54] - Quote Zahle Undt wrote: Jadd Hatchen wrote: Zahle Undt wrote: Real money for respecs = pay to be FOTM which is essentially pay 2 win which would be very bad for the game I can just as easily just pay for a booster and use those added skill points to skill into the FOTM. What's the difference? You actually have to play the game as well with the booster. Also if you max out weekly with 30 days active and passive boosters both you get little over 2.3 million SP which gets you proto in a new suit or maxes out 1 new weapon. An Aurum respec lets you completely rearrange what could be what about 27 - 30 million SP for some people right now? That's a big difference But the current theory would be to limit a full AUR respec to once every month. So by your calculations I can use boosters/play etc and do approx 2.3 million SP in one month. If we limit the AUR respecs to one every 2 months, then someone using boosters etc can acrue approx 4.6 million SP in that time. What's the difference between someone playing for 2 months and spending money on boosters to gain 4.6 million SP and someone else using an AUR respec one time in that same 2 months? Because most of the people using that AUR respec are not likely to have over 5 million SP to begin wtih.
Sky Kage THE GOD'Z THEMSELVES 31	Posted - 2013.11.07 18:14:00 - [55] - Quote A loss of 25% total SP seem like alot to me. I have hit 4m total sp recently and losing 1m of it just to get back that 1.4m that i put into the wrong place. i would lose 1m while only gaining 400k. sounds a bit over the top for me. Happiness is as a butterfly. when pursed it's always just beyond your grasp. but should you relax, It may alight you
Rynoceros Rise Of Old Dudes 1229	Posted - 2013.11.07 18:37:00 - [56] - Quote After the respec due for implementing basic content; 40,000 Aurum. (Less, and you demean the value. More, and you eliminate a potential source of income.) Available once every 720 hours. (Again, longer cool down, less profitability.) No SP reduction. (Removing bought SP is just bad business.) Cheeseburgers.
xSivartx Valor Tactical Operations Immortal Coalition of New-Eden 9	Posted - 2013.11.07 18:52:00 - [57] - Quote How about having it like EVE's attribute system? Where you can set them once a year but a respec?
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 11	Posted - 2013.11.07 19:33:00 - [58] - Quote xSivartx wrote: How about having it like EVE's attribute system? Where you can set them once a year but a respec? That is one idea. The problem is do we do just this? Do we do this "free respec" AND allow the respec for AUR once a month too? Would the annual free respec reduce the value of the paid for ones?
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 11	Posted - 2013.11.07 20:15:00 - [59] - Quote Rynoceros wrote: After the respec due for implementing basic content; 40,000 Aurum. (Less, and you demean the value. More, and you eliminate a potential source of income.) Available once every 720 hours. (Again, longer cool down, less profitability.) No SP reduction. (Removing bought SP is just bad business.) These are all very good inputs. Anyone not like them? If so, then why?
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 12	Posted - 2013.11.07 22:16:00 - [60] - Quote So upon further thought about this topic I've decided to change my opinion on item #4 from the original post. I have come to the conclusion that an annual (as in awarded one year after your toon's creation date and every year after that) free respec might be ok. the idea being that this is a constantly evolving game and as such it would help to maintain player's interests in being able to change or try out new roles as time goes on. I don't believe that one free respec will harm the AUR for respec idea too much as people will still want to fix mistakes, swap corporations and want to meet new standards, fullfill new roles, etc. I would also like to reiterate that once a new player finishes the new player experience, they should get an optional free respec so that they can also fix any mistakes that they made while still learning how the game works.

Oswald Rehnquist 476	Posted - 2013.11.07 22:27:00 - [61] - Quote 0 Aurum, just a -35% reduction in total sp Below 28 dB
Crash Monster Snipers Anonymous 1756	Posted - 2013.11.07 22:29:00 - [62] - Quote I think this one has been done before... I'm in favor.. but agree with others that there should definitely be a serious cool down between respecs, that you be able to get them via other means, and that perhaps the AUR road simply speeds things up a bit.
The Robot Devil Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 1161	Posted - 2013.11.07 22:33:00 - [63] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: bear90211 wrote: if you didnt think ahead before you bought and used aurum, then your a dumbass. this is not the end of loss, but just the beginning. I'm not certain if I fully understand the intent of your response. But I think I get the gist of it. I personally do not need or require a respec. Hell, once they do the future revamps and add in all the new stuffs, I still wouldn't care if I ddin't get one. Why? Because like you I planned ahead and did a little research before spending my skill points on the stuff that I did. So why did I make this posting? Because more and more in public matches I hear squad and team-mates complaining about how they want a respec and when is the next respec. Some hate taht they wasted their points on a vehicle that is now somewhat worthless to the goals that they originally intended. Other found that a weapon they originally enjoyed is now nerfed and no longer fun. Others still just didn't understand the skills when they bought them. So in the interests of trying to maintain the number of satisfied players in the game while retaining the older/veteran ones, would respecs for AUR be a good or a bad idea? It would do nothing for the game except cause even more "I want a respec", "When's the next respec", " Respec for Aurum" or "CCP you suck give me a respec" threads. Refunding SP will not keep players, add players or make them happy for more that a week or two. There are few cases where refunded SP would make the game better. We need to focus on making the game fun by adding content instead of wasting time typing junk on the forums. Use the search and find one of the 1,000 other threads with the exact same title and message. Dr. Gonzo: I hate to say this, but this place is getting to me. I think I'm getting the Fear.
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 12	Posted - 2013.11.07 22:36:00 - [64] - Quote Oswald Rehnquist wrote: 0 Aurum, just a -35% reduction in total sp I'd like to point out that previously in this thread: Sky Kage wrote: A loss of 25% total SP seem like alot to me. I have hit 4m total sp recently and losing 1m of it just to get back that 1.4m that i put into the wrong place. i would lose 1m while only gaining 400k. sounds a bit over the top for me. and: Rynoceros wrote: After the respec due for implementing basic content; 40,000 Aurum. (Less, and you demean the value. More, and you eliminate a potential source of income.) Available once every 720 hours. (Again, longer cool down, less profitability.) No SP reduction. (Removing bought SP is just bad business.) and: Kain Spero wrote: I have no issues with a respec being sold for AUR. Personally I would rather see something like a 2 or so month cool down rather than a SP penalty. Maybe an SP penalty is okay, but loosing SP that you likely paid for to then pay to reallocate SP feels off. I think it would make sense to allow 1 free respec every 12 months and also give an optional respec to new players at around the 30 day mark. Around the 40,000 AUR mark seems to make sense. So in one, it overly penalizes the player for the ability to change one skill. In another it's just not good business to remove SP. And finally, SP are akin to AUR to begin with. So why charge AUR and SP when SP = AUR and it's bad business to take money (ie. SP) away?
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 4986	Posted - 2013.11.07 23:03:00 - [65] - Quote 1 - How much should an Aurum respec cost? NONE. It will only reinforce the stigma that Dust is pay-to-win. 2 - How often should they be allowed to happen per character? If we are ever forced into living with respecs, I would say no more than once a year. Eve Online's Neural Remap system (which is nothing like the respecs you know) is offered only once a year to Eve players. 3 - Should free respecs ever be allowed again? Only when content has been added in such a way that results in A) most or all racial weapons/suits/vehicles are added and B) when the skill tree has been overhauled to the point where it's more practical to just simply give everyone an automatic FREE respec. 4 - Should a respec be "bankable?" Hell no. Don't let it stack. If you fail to use the respec in the allotted time, you lose it. 5 - How might this affect the fiction or back story of the game (if we care)? No impact on the back story at all. However, it will greatly impact the overall gameplay for the players. CCP, please fix the Nova Knives. Thank you.
Oswald Rehnquist 477	Posted - 2013.11.07 23:08:00 - [66] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: So in one, it overly penalizes the player for the ability to change one skill. In another it's just not good business to remove SP. And finally, SP are akin to AUR to begin with. So why charge AUR and SP when SP = AUR and it's bad business to take money (ie. SP) away? There were talk about skill back boosters for redoing a skill or two, entire respecs are mainly when CCP entirely destroys what you have or you are a very board vet and want to switch to something entirely different. Also saying sp=aurum when I said no aurum cost is is tantamount to not even looking at what I wrote, I just listed sp as a cost, which is something that doesn't cost real world money if you don't want it to and prevents pay to win Below 28 dB
Rynoceros Rise Of Old Dudes 1237	Posted - 2013.11.08 04:54:00 - [67] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: 1 - How much should an Aurum respec cost? NONE. It will only reinforce the stigma that Dust is pay-to-win. It's no stigma. Until Boosters are purchasable with ISK, it will be P2W. Cheeseburgers.
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 18	Posted - 2013.11.08 21:11:00 - [68] - Quote The Robot Devil wrote: It would do nothing for the game except cause even more "I want a respec", "When's the next respec", " Respec for Aurum" or "CCP you suck give me a respec" threads. Refunding SP will not keep players, add players or make them happy for more that a week or two. There are few cases where refunded SP would make the game better. We need to focus on making the game fun by adding content instead of wasting time typing junk on the forums. Use the search and find one of the 1,000 other threads with the exact same title and message. I quite see how giving people a way to respec would make them want what they already have? I agree content is the main objective and would be a better enhancement to the game. I'm also sure that they are already doing that. This thread is more to discuss other things like AUR for respecs and the possible pitfalls or abuses of it so that if CCP decides to ever do it, then a lot of theory crafting and other inputs are readily available for them. I do believe that there are situations where someone will want to try out a different aspect of the game. I'm not saying that people should be able to swap roles all the time, but maybe once in a while. After all, how do you know if you like or don't like a type of weapon or specific vehicle setup until you actually use it for a while, but then once you get there you may find out that it's not what you imagined it would be. Many of them just stop playing because looking back at how much work it took to get to where they are and repeating that again just to try something new seems like an exercise in endless futility. I don't presribe to this notion, because I believe that no matter how useless a skill is, it will eventually become a useful one at some point. But that sort of mentality is in the minority in the FPS world. I did use the search and it came up with a bunch of crap threads that didn't cover an actual discussion of it and possible implementations of it while also adressing concerns for or against it.
Kane Fyea DUST University Ivy League 2162	Posted - 2013.11.08 21:19:00 - [69] - Quote I think there should never be paid respecs. That would finally make this game P2W like most other F2P games (Which most of them that are P2W fail pretty hard) Best way for CCP to make money is selling cosmetic items. If they did that I will actually buy more AUR again.
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 18	Posted - 2013.11.08 21:20:00 - [70] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: 1 - How much should an Aurum respec cost? NONE. It will only reinforce the stigma that Dust is pay-to-win. 2 - How often should they be allowed to happen per character? If we are ever forced into living with respecs, I would say no more than once a year. Eve Online's Neural Remap system (which is nothing like the respecs you know) is offered only once a year to Eve players. 3 - Should free respecs ever be allowed again? Only when content has been added in such a way that results in A) most or all racial weapons/suits/vehicles are added and B) when the skill tree has been overhauled to the point where it's more practical to just simply give everyone an automatic FREE respec. 4 - Should a respec be "bankable?" Hell no. Don't let it stack. If you fail to use the respec in the allotted time, you lose it. 5 - How might this affect the fiction or back story of the game (if we care)? No impact on the back story at all. However, it will greatly impact the overall gameplay for the players. In 1 you say that it would reinforce the stigma that it is pay to win. However that doesn't actually state that by doing so it is a pay to win strategy. Only that it would appear to be so. Currently one can pay for bonus skillpoints thorugh boosters. One can pay for weapons/equipment with somewhat equivalent stats to those that can be aquired with more time (ie. skillpoints). In both cases you are only paying to get to the same end result, just doing it faster. Similarly by paying for a respec you are just paying to get to the same goal (spec'd out for a new thing) only getting there faster. Anyone can get there, but by paying AUR you just get there a little bit faster. I realize that the respecs are nothing like the neural remaps in EVE. But in EVE you can also loose skillpoints. Currently in DUST this is not possible. Also in EVE the nural remaps can be saved up and banked. Which is why I asked if that was something that people might want. In fact having a nural remap available on a toon when it is traded to another account (within the confines of the EULA) is a factor taken into account when selling/trading toons in EVE. I agree that it would have an impact on gameplay. That is the whole point of a single shard universe. Everything no matter how small will have an effect.

Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 18	Posted - 2013.11.08 21:29:00 - [71] - Quote Kane Fyea wrote: I think there should never be paid respecs. That would finally make this game P2W like most other F2P games (Which most of them that are P2W fail pretty hard) Best way for CCP to make money is selling cosmetic items. If they did that I will actually buy more AUR again. I'm still not following how a respec would make the game P2W... You can already use AUR to get weapons/equipment/vehicles that are similar to the ones you could get after investing more time and skillpoints. You can use AUR to accelerate the amount of SP earned to get to those better weapons etc. faster. All a respec does (and I'm still only talking about a respec once every month or two or even longer) would do is make it possible to get to a set of skills faster. The player already earned the skillpoints. The player is not going to be able to do anything that any other player couldn't do by not paying AUR. So I'm not seeing where paying for a respec gets them something that someone else without a respec couldn't get also. Or is my definition of P2W wrong? As I understood it, a P2W item is when someone pays to get something that is mechanically better than anything that someone who never pays for anything can get. Ie. I pay AUR to get a gun that has twice the normal damage of any free gun or pay for magic ammo that doels more damage or for a vehicle with twice the armor, etc... How does paying for a respec get something that could not have been gotten through not paying for it?
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 61	Posted - 2013.11.22 15:57:00 - [72] - Quote Bump due to renewed relevancy after 1.7 changes.
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 1750	Posted - 2013.11.22 16:08:00 - [73] - Quote Do it the EVE way You get like 2 free respecs a year, maybe a bonus respec as an even prize, once used you lose em Or respec for AUR, but you can only buy like 2/3 a year, you get a full respec and lose no SP, cost be like 10quid or something
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 70	Posted - 2013.11.26 20:31:00 - [74] - Quote Ok, bumping this as well as adding in new relevancy since the announcement of the 1.7 partial respec fiasco. I've come the to conclusion that CCP wants to "snap the line" and call it "game on" from this point forward. They no longer want to give out "free respecs" to everyone due to sweeping changes that they make due to some fear of upsetting game continuity etc. They will only be refunding SP for skill that they specifically REMOVE from the game from this point forward. So the "new" question to ask is, would it still be possible to have respecs for AUR (ie not free)? I'm of the opinion now that this should happen. It would not only help to "fix" and update fiasco's that CCP will commit in the future, but help to assuage and sooth the players that feel that they have "wasted" SP on something. The main question becomes how often? One train of thought says to let it happen once a month (timer starts from when you do it). This way CCP can reap the benefits of all the extra money. After all it's a "free-to-play" game where this type of respec/re-doing/re-whatever of a character is feasible. In other online games you have the ability to pay to re-spend your points on your toon. So why not here? Another train of thought says that it should be very limited because it might encourage some pay to win mentality (which it doesn't because it would be available to everyone equally and thus not an inherent advantage). In this idea they should only be available like 2 times a year and possibly have 1 free one per year for players that play that long. None of which should be bankable. Meaning if you get a free one in one year, then if you don't use it by the second year you are still at one, not two. Honestly, there are only two race's worth of vehicles in the game right now. There are barely enough suits and gear to fill up any specific race's load-out as well. But somehow this is "enough"? So instead of forcing people to have to skill into a limited set of weapons and be screwed over because they were in the game first before the full selection was ever available, why not provide some way for your long-term supporting players to fix the problem themselves? Seriously, the only ones being given the short end of the stick on this slow over time introduction of racial variants over time are the players that came first that are staying loyal to your game and provide the majority of your stable player base. By not being able to "fix" the incorrectly spent SP problem you are pissing off your veteran players and favoring your new ones to the point of making the "bitter vets" leave the game. So I now support the AUR for respec idea because CCP has for all intents and purposes stopped giving respecs to make up for their lack of foresight when they restructure the game.
Vanell Sin Dust2Dust. Top Men. 20	Posted - 2013.12.13 10:41:00 - [75] - Quote I strongly support one time per character aurum respec. Im playing since Uprising 1.0 and still have 8m SP.Im I doing something wrong?
Rasatsu Much Crying Old Experts 955	Posted - 2013.12.13 10:46:00 - [76] - Quote Allow respec that costs 100k AUR and reduces your total SP by half.
Michael Hyperthraz Vherokior Combat Logistics Minmatar Republic 15	Posted - 2013.12.13 11:37:00 - [77] - Quote 25k aur per respec. Max two lifetime per account.
Jack McReady DUST University Ivy League 921	Posted - 2013.12.13 12:25:00 - [78] - Quote funny how people always compare dust to eve, those comments always amuse me and hightlight the lack of credibility eve is a subscription based player driven mmo where all training is passive. you can in eve stop playing actively, do else for a month, only login once in a while to change skill training and then come back to enjoy something completely new. you can also just buy a new character for isk. just a month ago I sold my old character because I wanted something completely different and bought a new one for the same amount of ISK I got. dust is still a lobby f2p shooter, you got to matchmaking, play and dont have to care about anything else, thats it. if you think it isnt than you are delusioned and stuck in a tunnelvision dreamworld. in dust you have to play to skill into something in a reasonable timeframe. also dust does not even have player market. dust is not eve and completely different. there is no reason to not allow some sort of respecs either one time, aurum or any other system, esp. if you consider how some stuff got screwed and not fixed for months, or it was not released in the timeframe it was announced. also, if you have to live with your choices, why were tank players allowed to invest their SP into suits after the patch. they should from the beginning be only able to reinvest those SP into tanks. either everyone has to live with their choices or no one. how often did CCP devs changed the premise on which you decided to invest SP into something? plenty of times, and those people did not get a reallocation with their points! CCP often made your decisions null and void, thus they didnt matter in the first place. in short: it is about time to introduce a possibility for respecs. Cosgar wrote: If this is a full respec, you should have to give up 25% of your lifetime SP. if CCP screws up something again I should gain 25% bonus SP. I would have bazillions of SP now
Bethhy Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 456	Posted - 2013.12.13 13:12:00 - [79] - Quote This will ruin the balance CCP has strived to fight against the "pay to win" issue so many f2p games suffer from. Being able to respec like your last fit is going out of style with your pocket book and specialize where ever to put your skills next is a terrible idea for DUST. Many games have done this even subscription based games where you can just respec you maxed out character and everything you worked for or put into your character was meaningless as your just a blank shell again.. My OCD goes off crazy when i open my skill sheet and see skill points that could of been better allocated... But that's the entire fun of building and developing your Mercenary. and one of the key factor's to Dust's player time investment. So no against any respec's ever again in DUST. SP reimbursement for skill changes? sure.
Jack McReady DUST University Ivy League 921	Posted - 2013.12.13 13:15:00 - [80] - Quote Bethhy wrote: This will ruin the balance CCP has strived to fight against the "pay to win" issue so many f2p games suffer from. Being able to respec like your last fit is going out of style with your pocket book and specialize where ever to put your skills next is a terrible idea for DUST. Many games have done this even subscription based games where you can just respec you maxed out character and everything you worked for or put into your character was meaningless as your just a blank shell again.. My OCD goes off crazy when i open my skill sheet and see skill points that could of been better allocated... But that's the entire fun of building and developing your Mercenary. and one of the key factor's to Dust's player time investment. So no against any respec's ever again in DUST. SP reimbursement for skill changes? sure. your point is null and void. again, if you have to live with your choices, why were tank players allowed to reinvest their SP into suits after the patch. they should from the beginning be only able to reinvest those SP into tanks. either everyone has to live with their choices or no one. how often did CCP devs changed the premise on which you decided to invest SP into something? plenty of times, and those people did not get a reallocation with their points! CCP often made your decisions null and void, thus they didnt matter in the first place. beside that, if you do not understand how respecs actually speed up balance process then you have anyway no crediblity

Bethhy Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 463	Posted - 2013.12.13 13:26:00 - [81] - Quote Jack McReady wrote: Bethhy wrote: This will ruin the balance CCP has strived to fight against the "pay to win" issue so many f2p games suffer from. Being able to respec like your last fit is going out of style with your pocket book and specialize where ever to put your skills next is a terrible idea for DUST. Many games have done this even subscription based games where you can just respec you maxed out character and everything you worked for or put into your character was meaningless as your just a blank shell again.. My OCD goes off crazy when i open my skill sheet and see skill points that could of been better allocated... But that's the entire fun of building and developing your Mercenary. and one of the key factor's to Dust's player time investment. So no against any respec's ever again in DUST. SP reimbursement for skill changes? sure. your point is null and void. again, if you have to live with your choices, why were tank players allowed to reinvest their SP into suits after the patch. they should from the beginning be only able to reinvest those SP into tanks. either everyone has to live with their choices or no one. how often did CCP devs changed the premise on which you decided to invest SP into something? plenty of times, and those people did not get a reallocation with their points! CCP often made your decisions null and void, thus they didnt matter in the first place. beside that, if you do not understand how respecs actually speed up balance process then you have anyway no crediblity I have played more games then you would imagine, where respec's weren't available and then magically became available... It ruined the balance in every single game.. made giant FOTM cookie cutter builds rampant from one build to the next... it ruined diversity in every single game.. Biggest example is World of Warcraft... They completely changed all the skills around the tank tree. This is history in CCP even with EVE. They will reimburse any skill points invested into that area... specially when they do a ground up rework... It has happened for longer then most people on these forums have been playing PS3. Everyone's including your argument is completely based of what YOU think is "fair" and its not even a balanced concept... and one we have already done and saw the outburst of FOTM cal logi's everywhere with TAR's....(After they got the respect and saw the imps all running cal logi with TAR's) Respec's have killed the biggest title in gaming down to the smallest... and in a F2p game with a persistent skill system like DUST it breaks so many aspects of it. And go troll credibility some where else... pathetic.
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 226	Posted - 2013.12.13 15:54:00 - [82] - Quote Bethhy wrote: I have played more games then you would imagine, where respec's weren't available and then magically became available... It ruined the balance in every single game.. made giant FOTM cookie cutter builds rampant from one build to the next... it ruined diversity in every single game.. Biggest example is World of Warcraft... They completely changed all the skills around the tank tree. This is history in CCP even with EVE. They will reimburse any skill points invested into that area... specially when they do a ground up rework... It has happened for longer then most people on these forums have been playing PS3. Everyone's including your argument is completely based of what YOU think is "fair" and its not even a balanced concept... and one we have already done and saw the outburst of FOTM cal logi's everywhere with TAR's....(After they got the respect and saw the imps all running cal logi with TAR's) Respec's have killed the biggest title in gaming down to the smallest... and in a F2p game with a persistent skill system like DUST it breaks so many aspects of it. And go troll credibility some where else... pathetic. I have also played quite a few games over my lifetime. I would normally agree with you and your EVE Online analogy save for one KEY point. In EVE when they add in a new category of ship type (like the destroyers or battle cruisers or any of the Tech II line of ships), they did so in a RACIALLY BALANCED way. In DUST 514, they have only just begun to do this and they did so with the Assault Rifle Class of weapons. Luckily, they managed to somehow have all four races of Medium and Assault Suits too. But that's IT! NOTHING ELSE in this game has a counterpart in ALL four races. Hell they have yet to even release more than TWO RACES' worth of vehicles to this game! That is a real issue, because it forces the Amarr and Minmatar pilots to have to use the vehicles of another race that would never have been their first choice. It's not FOTM (though it will appear to be when those new items finally do get included as everyone who was waiting for them will suddenly start using them). I play Minmatar, I skilled into the Flaylock Pistol, Mass Driver, and Sub-machine Gun because of that. I won't be skilling into the Heavy Machine Gun until I have a Heavy Minmatar Suit to go with it. But then I play Assault, and as an Assault player I needed a rifle. I sure as hell didn't want to skill into the damned Amarr Scrambler Rifle, so that left me with one and only one choice. The Gallente Assault Rifle. Now they have the Minmatar Combat Rifle, the weapon I would have chosen FIRST had I had the choice to do so. But now I have over 2 million SP wasted in skills that I will now never use as I got rid of all my AR fits and run the Combat Rifle now. So how is that fair? Let me put it into EVE Online terms for you... Let's say that they added T3 Battleships to the game. Modular like the T3 Cruisers and very flexible. But CCP only released the Caldari and Gallente versions saying that the Amarr and Minmatar versions would come out much later (maybe a year later). How unbalanced would the game become? How much outrage would occur in the game? People that were Amarr or Minmatar specialists would be **** out of luck! They would HAVE to train up T3 Caldari Cruiser or T3 Gallente Cruiser skills and all those prerequisites first just to get to use the new T3 Battleships and be able to maintain competitiveness. AND THEN a year later, the ships that they actually wanted would finally be out and they would have millions of wasted skillpoints. I understand when they REMOVE a skill from the game and REFUNDING those points. But that is not the issue here. The issue here is that CCP is still DEVELOPING this game and as a result in order to play it, we are being PENALIZED. It would only make sense that to rectify that situation that they either allow for a respec once they do finish there "verisimilitude" of all the races, or they allow us the players a mechanism whereby we can rectify the issue ourselves. Right now we have neither, and that is the real problem.
LT SHANKS Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 760	Posted - 2013.12.14 05:09:00 - [83] - Quote I'd pay 50,000 AUR and would gladly give up 20% of my total SP for a respec on my Heavy...
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 490	Posted - 2013.12.15 05:26:00 - [84] - Quote There needs to be a content threshold to be reached before a respecing system is introduced. Given the way that the game has changed and continues to change I am of the mind that once the skill tree is reworked, the suits themselves, and the other racial variants introduced there should be a final free respec. The game is still being balanced, tweaked, gutted, and frankenstiened back together again (see current vehicle redux and eventual rebalancing for a small example). This is still the beta - regardless of the press release that this is an official and full game - and the players know it. Hell, even CCP has talked about how much work the game needs ("eating their vegetables" i believe is how they phrased it). There will be a balancing point, and least one where most can agree that the game is functioning well, offers versatility, and is a truly competitive product vs other popular shooters. When that point is reached there should be a respec. And when that is offered and we can invite our friends to play this game without the constant frustrations that the players and devs constantly deal with right now; then we can expect no more respecs because of reworking - until years later. However, a system for respecing should be implemented to further appeal the the standard gamer customer base. It is a game that is in the EVE universe, but is not designed for the narrow niche of players that EVE serves. Different consumer = different tactics/offerings. This is how I see it progressing.
KING CHECKMATE Scions of Athra 3187	Posted - 2013.12.15 05:35:00 - [85] - Quote as always, any respec thread has my support. AV-TANK BALANCE = https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1612446#post1612446
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 238	Posted - 2013.12.16 17:51:00 - [86] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: There needs to be a content threshold to be reached before a respecing system is introduced. Given the way that the game has changed and continues to change I am of the mind that once the skill tree is reworked, the suits themselves, and the other racial variants introduced there should be a final free respec. The game is still being balanced, tweaked, gutted, and frankenstiened back together again (see current vehicle redux and eventual rebalancing for a small example). This is still the beta - regardless of the press release that this is an official and full game - and the players know it. Hell, even CCP has talked about how much work the game needs ("eating their vegetables" i believe is how they phrased it). There will be a balancing point, and least one where most can agree that the game is functioning well, offers versatility, and is a truly competitive product vs other popular shooters. When that point is reached there should be a respec. And when that is offered and we can invite our friends to play this game without the constant frustrations that the players and devs constantly deal with right now; then we can expect no more respecs because of reworking - until years later. However, a system for respecing should be implemented to further appeal the the standard gamer customer base. It is a game that is in the EVE universe, but is not designed for the narrow niche of players that EVE serves. Different consumer = different tactics/offerings. This is how I see it progressing. That's the crux of the issue. When will that be reached? CCP cannot tell us because that would be making a binding promise that could get them into trouble later if they cannot deliver on time. They've been burned by this in the past and don't want to say anything until right before they do it. But some kinda statement saying that they understand why this is an issue and that they would do something like this once the verisimilitude of the game is complete would go a long way to quieting the concerns. However they haven't, so this leads me to believe that they will not. And I have to believe that since the CPM is also staying out of these discussions as well, that they are also in agreement with CCP on this for some reason. (CPM members feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.) So there we are. Trying to discuss this and point out to CCP why it's sooo unfair for races like Caldari or Gallente to get to have vehicles from the start, but other races like Amarr and Minmatar get shafted and told to waste SP on the other races' stuffs and never get those points back. Similarly for Heavy's and Light's.
Alena Ventrallis The Neutral Zone 338	Posted - 2013.12.18 19:43:00 - [87] - Quote We should get a respect one final time once racial symmetry has achieved. After that, no more, save for exceptional circumstances.
Mobius Wyvern Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 4164	Posted - 2013.12.18 19:44:00 - [88] - Quote This is and always will be the worst possible idea to come out of these forums. Just throwing that out there. The WORST. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 256	Posted - 2013.12.18 19:46:00 - [89] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: This is and always will be the worst possible idea to come out of these forums. Just throwing that out there. The WORST. And why is it so bad? Please elaborate. We've gone to great lengths to describe the pro's and con's here. Could you please offer some more of your insight into why you believe as you do?
TheD1CK Dead Man's Game 208	Posted - 2013.12.18 20:07:00 - [90] - Quote Seriously , you think its acceptable for some of us to buy our way out of the mistakes we or CCP have made in the skill system ..... No way ..... There needs to be one full respec when all the racial gear comes out that's it....

Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 257	Posted - 2013.12.18 20:17:00 - [91] - Quote TheD1CK wrote: Seriously , you think its acceptable for some of us to buy our way out of the mistakes we or CCP have made in the skill system ..... No way ..... There needs to be one full respec when all the racial gear comes out that's it.... Ok so you ARE in favor of a respec, but just not a paid one. Got it. What about doing both? Giving a free respec to everyone either once a year or whenever CCP decides that they've finally finished all the verisimilitude of the base game?
Slag Emberforge Immortal Retribution 329	Posted - 2013.12.18 22:17:00 - [92] - Quote I really do believe its the EVE fanboys out there that are making the impasse for skill respecializations. Guess they think these in game decisions somehow matter.. Oh wait they don't.. But it will ruin the fun of the game.. -No, if anything it will give some players a second chance, which may be the difference between staying and quitting But it will make Dust die, all bad games have respecs -No, plenty of very successful game series mostly MMOS and MMORPGS have respecs, even the EVE fanboys get yearly free and purchasable versions. -Adding a feature like this to the marketplace for AUR will make CCP money, since BPOs are off the table [b]this may be the only other type of product many players would be willing to buy.[\b] Respecs can't be usable whenever, or there will be to many FOTMs -While it is possible this will encourage FOTM, it also possible that price will act is a deterrent, if the cost is too high and people still purchase this with such a high cost they are only doing CCP a favor by filling their pockets. -Also of note a moratorium or temporary suspension of use of a the physical item could be instated for a two-four week period after every major patch. This would give CCP time to appropriately adjust values to prevent from producing FOTMs. (And honey if it takes CCP that long to rebalance after each patch that's really embarrassing) So what does this net us? A second chance yields; More fun More opportunities for a player to take another direction, keep interested Fix mistakes, adjust hearing as variants are added Generate revenue for CCP Punish idiots who are willing to chase FOTMs Simplistic in design (one use consumable, can be toggled on/off around patch time) Limited effect endgame (if you are 20mil+ sp you can roll up a better FOTM on patch days as you already have more than enough to have several roles maxed) Cons: Somehow some people have a problem with respecs of any kind. (???) Not a slow yet complicated system as some would prefer (broad instead of granular) Is something people would actually buy (unlike this %SP lost nonsense)
Aikuchi Tomaru Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1344	Posted - 2013.12.18 22:20:00 - [93] - Quote Slag Emberforge wrote: I really do believe its the EVE fanboys out there that are making the impasse for skill respecializations. Guess they think these in game decisions somehow matter.. Oh wait they don't.. But it will ruin the fun of the game.. -No, if anything it will give some players a second chance, which may be the difference between staying and quitting The reason for no respecs is a very very simple one: Why letting you respec if you can just skill everything anyways? You want to try out a new weapon? Very well. Go ahead, save up some SP and spec into it. You played as infantry all the time? No problem. Doesn't stop you from speccing into vehicles from now on. Nothing will stop you from speccing everything in the vehicle tree, even if you started speccing infantry stuff at first. This is because there is no single reason for allowing respecs. Respecs would only be an option if your SP were limited. But they aren't. All you want is a shortcut to use the best version of other stuff instantly. But that's not how it works.
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 258	Posted - 2013.12.18 22:28:00 - [94] - Quote Aikuchi Tomaru wrote: The reason for no respecs is a very very simple one: Why letting you respec if you can just skill everything anyways? You want to try out a new weapon? Very well. Go ahead, save up some SP and spec into it. You played as infantry all the time? No problem. Doesn't stop you from speccing into vehicles from now on. Nothing will stop you from speccing everything in the vehicle tree, even if you started speccing infantry stuff at first. This is because there is no single reason for allowing respecs. Respecs would only be an option if your SP were limited. But they aren't. All you want is a shortcut to use the best version of other stuff instantly. But that's not how it works. But in my case, the options that I wanted still aren't there. When I skilled into the AR it was the only option, but what I really wanted was a combat rifle. I still want to skill into HMG and use it, but i can't because there is no Heavy Minmatar Suit to go with it! I want to try out using a Commando fit with Mass Driver and Combat Rifle, but can't because there are no Minmatar Commando Suits. I want to pilot an Assault Dropship with Autocannons of Death on it, but I cannot because it's not there yet. I want to roll out in one of those tanks that they showed pictures of at fanfest with the FOUR sets of tracks (not two like the ones we have now) but they still haven't made ANY VEHICLES FOR THE MINMATAR!!!! So in the meantime what do I spend my skillpoints on? WHAT! Why should I even play the game since it doesn't have the stuff that they have promised but still haven't implemented? So I skilled into things that I know I DO NOT WANT, but am forced to use because CCP could roll out any semblance of verisimilitude. Hell we even asked the devs at EVE VEGAS if there would be respecs after the new stuff. They said yes. So where are they? That's why I made my choices, and that's why I'm wondering what happened to the respecs.
Fire of Prometheus DUST University Ivy League 2019	Posted - 2013.12.18 22:38:00 - [95] - Quote Respec for AUR=p2w The only way I would even consider this is if they put in that timer but made it 3 months instead of 1 "It is the mark of an educated mind to entertain a thought without accepting it." -Aristotle <3 Commando AK.0
Slag Emberforge Immortal Retribution 329	Posted - 2013.12.18 22:56:00 - [96] - Quote Aikuchi Tomaru wrote: Slag Emberforge wrote: I really do believe its the EVE fanboys out there that are making the impasse for skill respecializations. Guess they think these in game decisions somehow matter.. Oh wait they don't.. But it will ruin the fun of the game.. -No, if anything it will give some players a second chance, which may be the difference between staying and quitting The reason for no respecs is a very very simple one: Why letting you respec if you can just skill everything anyways? You want to try out a new weapon? Very well. Go ahead, save up some SP and spec into it. You played as infantry all the time? No problem. Doesn't stop you from speccing into vehicles from now on. Nothing will stop you from speccing everything in the vehicle tree, even if you started speccing infantry stuff at first. This is because there is no single reason for allowing respecs. Respecs would only be an option if your SP were limited. But they aren't. All you want is a shortcut to use the best version of other stuff instantly. But that's not how it works. Respecializations do not generate sp from nothing, to imply it would allow someone to max something out immediately implies they already would of had the SP to do that. Why wasn't it maxed in the first place then? 1. It wasn't added yet 2. It was added but was horribly broken (why make a point to specialize into something that sucks?) 3. Game dynamics have changed (what you once had is so altered it is no longer viable for you)
Slag Emberforge Immortal Retribution 329	Posted - 2013.12.18 22:58:00 - [97] - Quote Also just to throw this out there, the statement respecialization=p2w is a direct implication that CCP either fails at balancing, or at least that they are unable to do so in a timely manner. This problem could be resolved if CCP had a larger crew, which requires revenue, which requires players. It's all cyclical, if this pay for respec came into being it might open some doors for the future of Dust.
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 258	Posted - 2013.12.18 23:00:00 - [98] - Quote Fire of Prometheus wrote: Respec for AUR=p2w The only way I would even consider this is if they put in that timer but made it 3 months instead of 1 Granted a 3 month timer would be ok with me. But it is NOT P2W. You already earned the SP, you are not gaining any extra SP, and it doesn't give you anything that someone who never buys a respec can't get. So how is it P2W?
Slag Emberforge Immortal Retribution 329	Posted - 2013.12.18 23:05:00 - [99] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: Fire of Prometheus wrote: Respec for AUR=p2w The only way I would even consider this is if they put in that timer but made it 3 months instead of 1 Granted a 3 month timer would be ok with me. But it is NOT P2W. You already earned the SP, you are not gaining any extra SP, and it doesn't give you anything that someone who never buys a respec can't get. So how is it P2W? Trying to find reason behind this anti-intellectualism? Good luck.
bamboo x Eternal Beings Proficiency V. 26	Posted - 2014.01.23 16:49:00 - [100] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: On the other hand, in EVE online they allow for a free stat change once every year. WHAT? Come on CCP, enough of the favoritism. Give us one of those.

dent 308 Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2300	Posted - 2014.01.23 17:16:00 - [101] - Quote No. Respec bought with aurum is bad idea. Once players gain enough SP for core skills, and one proto suit and weapon, they could respec into whatever is the current FOTM suit / weapon combo. Games would devolve into two teams of nerds in the same suit, shooting the same weapon. The long-term investment value of SP would evaporate the moment this feature is enabled. bamboo x wrote: Jadd Hatchen wrote: On the other hand, in EVE online they allow for a free stat change once every year. WHAT? Come on CCP, enough of the favoritism. Give us one of those. This isn't what you think it is. In eve there are attributes that effect how quickly you gain SP when training skills. You can re-arrange these attributes, but not the spent SP itself. Hail Satan
NobIesse Oblige Fatal Absolution Covert Intervention 68	Posted - 2014.01.23 17:24:00 - [102] - Quote dent 308 wrote: No. Respec bought with aurum is bad idea. Once players gain enough SP for core skills, and one proto suit and weapon, they could respec into whatever is the current FOTM suit / weapon combo. Games would devolve into two teams of nerds in the same suit, shooting the same weapon. The long-term investment value of SP would evaporate the moment this feature is enabled. bamboo x wrote: Jadd Hatchen wrote: On the other hand, in EVE online they allow for a free stat change once every year. WHAT? Come on CCP, enough of the favoritism. Give us one of those. This isn't what you think it is. In eve there are attributes that effect how quickly you gain SP when training skills. You can re-arrange these attributes, but not the spent SP itself. This is simply the flawed argument of a person out of touch. A team understands that especially with the incoming changes each suit will have it's place on the battlefield. A team that doesn't have proper roles within a battle...isn't going to be very competitive. Send 16 anything at anyone and their going to get smashed by people who understand the value of a damped scout, 2 heavies pushing, and logi's dropping links, scanning, and then connecting that rep tool. FOTM was only FOTM as bad as it was because the parity between assaults, scouts, and heavies was so off...currently the parity is very good in providing each role an allocated role that makes it the "best" at that role. I however, am against Respecs outside of massive and fundamental changes to skill/weapons/suits you specced.
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 384	Posted - 2014.01.23 17:24:00 - [103] - Quote dent 308 wrote: No. Respec bought with aurum is bad idea. Once players gain enough SP for core skills, and one proto suit and weapon, they could respec into whatever is the current FOTM suit / weapon combo. Games would devolve into two teams of nerds in the same suit, shooting the same weapon. The long-term investment value of SP would evaporate the moment this feature is enabled. Ok, I don't see it that way. Let's say there is no respec, and that same guy does the same thing. He'll just put the rest of his points into the next suit anyways. It really has no affect on him whether there was a respec or not. In fact it may retain his interest if he find out that the light suit that he trained into doesn't do all the things he had hoped. On the other hand you have the newbies who spent all their points on the wrong things. They think that their character is now FUBAR'd and will take weeks to months to straighten out now. Maybe the HMG looked uber awesome at first, but when using it they didn't like it at all. They become disappointed with the game. But if they have the option to respec, then they can fix that themselves. Honestly, the whole idea that people have to rely on others to be stupid with the allocation of their skillpoints in order to win at this game is a stupid premise. Winning should occur because you used what you had along with teamwork to accomplish the goal. Not because someone didn't know what was what and spent points in the wrong places.
knight of 6 SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 1226	Posted - 2014.01.23 17:29:00 - [104] - Quote no aurum respecs thanks. "God favors the side with the best artillery" ~ Napoleon Ko6, scout. CLOSED BETA VET
Lt Royal Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2609	Posted - 2014.01.23 17:34:00 - [105] - Quote If this gets implemented, all I have to say is GÇ£Pay 2 WinGÇ¥..... Gÿ£GÿàGÿP Subdreddit Recruitment Video Gÿ£GÿàGÿP
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 384	Posted - 2014.01.23 17:36:00 - [106] - Quote NobIesse Oblige wrote: I however, am against Respecs outside of massive and fundamental changes to skill/weapons/suits you specced. Why? CCP has yet to ever do this in DUST. They have done "resets" during beta several times. But none of those were because of major changes in the game. They were doing it to see people start over again and to test things out. The thing in 1.7 with the vehicles was NOT a respec either. It was a skill point REFUND for skills that were removed from the game entirely. So knowing that CCP has NEVER given a respce for "massive and fundamental changes", are you still in favor of no respecs for any other reason? Respec really only help with new player retention. New players need time and experience to learn that, "OMG that rail rifle is cool! I want one." or to discover that the heavy suit doesn't do the tings that they had hoped. But by then they've wastes a large percentage of the points that they have. So do we tell them tough luck just grind away with your newb militia fits until you earn the SP to get the stuff you really wanted? Hell that's what makes most of the players quit. Grinding is BORING and this makes people not want to play the damned game. So instead offer them a respec. This mostly benefits the newer players more than it would any vet player. A vet player already knows what's what and has the skills he needs to survive on the battlefield. The new guy has to be extremely knowledgeable about the game to know what to spend points into to even come close to competing. And if they make a mistake they are setback for months as a result. I dunno about you guys, but I would rather help the new guys than let them die in a rut and never see them play again.
Bethhy Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 904	Posted - 2014.01.23 17:37:00 - [107] - Quote Whats the point of boosters if you could just respec? whats the point of SP accumulation at all then?
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 384	Posted - 2014.01.23 17:38:00 - [108] - Quote Lt Royal wrote: If this gets implemented, all I have to say is GÇ£Pay 2 WinGÇ¥..... Please read the above posts where it's obvious that it is NOT pay to win. Better yet, defend your statement. Put your money where your mouth is. If it is so damned obvious that this is pay to win, then it should be the easiest thing in the world for you to defend it in an actual argument. The rest of us have put up our arguments, what is yours?
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 384	Posted - 2014.01.23 17:39:00 - [109] - Quote knight of 6 wrote: no aurum respecs thanks. Nice to hear, but may I ask you why you feel this way?
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 384	Posted - 2014.01.23 17:47:00 - [110] - Quote Bethhy wrote: Whats the point of boosters if you could just respec? whats the point of SP accumulation at all then? Again, I've been stating that this is more of an advantage for new players. Older vets will have already decided that they want their character to be a tank driver or a dropship pilot or a heavy suit user and accrue and spend points appropriately. Once they have those things, they will just keep skilling into other things and expanding their capabilities. Boosters makes the accumulation go faster. But that is more towards what vets would do. But how long did it take you as a complete newb to this game to figure out what worked best for you? Did you mess up a few times along the way? Did CCP change the mechanics for something that you didn't want? Was an option never there for something CCP always promised but didn't deliver until later? There are sooo many reasons for why people in this game have mis-spent skill points not knowing WTF **** was. So why not allow them to have a chance to correct those mistakes? Or is your gameplay so poor that you have to rely on those mistakes to somehow win? In the long run respecs don't matter to most vets as they will already know what they want and how to get to it. So this "fear" that somehow respecs make vets even more OP are just unfounded and dumb. In the end respecs would only benefit the community and not harm it.

Lt Royal Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2609	Posted - 2014.01.23 17:48:00 - [111] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: Lt Royal wrote: If this gets implemented, all I have to say is GÇ£Pay 2 WinGÇ¥..... Please read the above posts where it's obvious that it is NOT pay to win. Better yet, defend your statement. Put your money where your mouth is. If it is so damned obvious that this is pay to win, then it should be the easiest thing in the world for you to defend it in an actual argument. The rest of us have put up our arguments, what is yours? I really cant be bothered to get into a heated debate why Aurum respecs are pay to win. I've been having these GÇ£argumentsGÇ¥ for the past year or so and IGÇÖm getting tired of trying to get my point across; the OP just sees red and and cant get it into their heads why its would be very bad for this game. I'm just going to leave it to the rest of the posters here (6 pages of them) to tell you why. Gÿ£GÿàGÿP Subdreddit Recruitment Video Gÿ£GÿàGÿP
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 4369	Posted - 2014.01.23 17:50:00 - [112] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: NobIesse Oblige wrote: I however, am against Respecs outside of massive and fundamental changes to skill/weapons/suits you specced. Why? CCP has yet to ever do this in DUST. They have done "resets" during beta several times. But none of those were because of major changes in the game. They were doing it to see people start over again and to test things out. The thing in 1.7 with the vehicles was NOT a respec either. It was a skill point REFUND for skills that were removed from the game entirely. So knowing that CCP has NEVER given a respce for "massive and fundamental changes", are you still in favor of no respecs for any other reason? Respec really only help with new player retention. New players need time and experience to learn that, "OMG that rail rifle is cool! I want one." or to discover that the heavy suit doesn't do the tings that they had hoped. But by then they've wastes a large percentage of the points that they have. So do we tell them tough luck just grind away with your newb militia fits until you earn the SP to get the stuff you really wanted? Hell that's what makes most of the players quit. Grinding is BORING and this makes people not want to play the damned game. So instead offer them a respec. This mostly benefits the newer players more than it would any vet player. A vet player already knows what's what and has the skills he needs to survive on the battlefield. The new guy has to be extremely knowledgeable about the game to know what to spend points into to even come close to competing. And if they make a mistake they are setback for months as a result. I dunno about you guys, but I would rather help the new guys than let them die in a rut and never see them play again. A skill respec is when you get the points that were allocated so skills removed from those skills and returned to your unallocated SP pile. A skill refund is when you get the points that were allocated so skills removed from those skills and returned to your unallocated SP pile. You'll notice how those two terms mean exactly the same thing. The vehicle respec was a PARTIAL respec, because only PART of your SP was refunded and available for reassignment. A full respec happened when we came into Uprising, and some players got a second respec after finding that several skills had incorrect descriptions and didn't work as advertised. All SP was refunded to those players, which is what respec MEANS. Yes, there is a valid argument for - as vehicles got for 1.8 - a partial respec with the addition of racial suit variants and some new racial weapons, when considering we also had - without a respec - the remaining racial rifle variants added recently. Back on-topic though, there will ALWAYS be a measure of FOTM play in DUST as long as there is even the slightest hint of imbalance anywhere in the game. As long as there is that sense of advantage, AUR respecs will always - A-L-W-A-Y-S - be pay to win. And pay to win is not what DUST should be, so no. Keep arguing that you see logic behind it. I see NOPE.
Darken-Soul Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 121	Posted - 2014.01.23 17:52:00 - [113] - Quote I would support an aurum respec. Conditions would have to apply. Like an isk variant. I do not support pay to win. If they are going to use the marketing angle they should do it well. Weapon respec x amount of aurum or y amount of isk. Rinse and repeat for dropsuits, vehicles, and skills. One further condition would be no skill book refund or assets refund. Another would be a 50% increase in cost for successive refunds. I am the real Darken
Bethhy Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 904	Posted - 2014.01.23 17:53:00 - [114] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: Bethhy wrote: Whats the point of boosters if you could just respec? whats the point of SP accumulation at all then? Again, I've been stating that this is more of an advantage for new players. Older vets will have already decided that they want their character to be a tank driver or a dropship pilot or a heavy suit user and accrue and spend points appropriately. Once they have those things, they will just keep skilling into other things and expanding their capabilities. Boosters makes the accumulation go faster. But that is more towards what vets would do. But how long did it take you as a complete newb to this game to figure out what worked best for you? Did you mess up a few times along the way? Did CCP change the mechanics for something that you didn't want? Was an option never there for something CCP always promised but didn't deliver until later? There are sooo many reasons for why people in this game have mis-spent skill points not knowing WTF **** was. So why not allow them to have a chance to correct those mistakes? Or is your gameplay so poor that you have to rely on those mistakes to somehow win? In the long run respecs don't matter to most vets as they will already know what they want and how to get to it. So this "fear" that somehow respecs make vets even more OP are just unfounded and dumb. In the end respecs would only benefit the community and not harm it. Bullshit... Respec's don't help a new player in any way. Educating a new player on DUST is by far 2 million times more effective. This post hurts my brain
Maken Tosch Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6545	Posted - 2014.01.23 17:56:00 - [115] - Quote No. No respecs outside of skill/suit/vehicle overhauls. That's final. OK, CCP. When are knives finally going to be improved? *CLOSED BETA VETERAN SINCE REPLICATION BUILD*
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 385	Posted - 2014.01.23 17:58:00 - [116] - Quote Bethhy wrote: Bullshit... Respec's don't help a new player in any way. Educating a new player on DUST is by far 2 million times more effective. This post hurts my brain No you are correct that educating a new player on DUST is the single best way to get them into the game, but can you tell me that is the way it actually happens 100% of the time? How about even 50% of the time after seeing all the stupid things that blue berries do on the battlefield?
Darken-Soul Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 121	Posted - 2014.01.23 18:00:00 - [117] - Quote Bethhy wrote: Jadd Hatchen wrote: Bethhy wrote: Whats the point of boosters if you could just respec? whats the point of SP accumulation at all then? Again, I've been stating that this is more of an advantage for new players. Older vets will have already decided that they want their character to be a tank driver or a dropship pilot or a heavy suit user and accrue and spend points appropriately. Once they have those things, they will just keep skilling into other things and expanding their capabilities. Boosters makes the accumulation go faster. But that is more towards what vets would do. But how long did it take you as a complete newb to this game to figure out what worked best for you? Did you mess up a few times along the way? Did CCP change the mechanics for something that you didn't want? Was an option never there for something CCP always promised but didn't deliver until later? There are sooo many reasons for why people in this game have mis-spent skill points not knowing WTF **** was. So why not allow them to have a chance to correct those mistakes? Or is your gameplay so poor that you have to rely on those mistakes to somehow win? In the long run respecs don't matter to most vets as they will already know what they want and how to get to it. So this "fear" that somehow respecs make vets even more OP are just unfounded and dumb. In the end respecs would only benefit the community and not harm it. Bullshit... Respec's don't help a new player in any way. Educating a new player on DUST is by far 2 million times more effective. This post hurts my brain Perhaps inventing statistics is hurting your brain. Your arguments are becoming less and less thought out. A break from the forums might be in order. I am the real Darken
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 385	Posted - 2014.01.23 18:00:00 - [118] - Quote Lt Royal wrote: I really cant be bothered to get into a heated debate why Aurum respecs are pay to win. I've been having these GÇ£argumentsGÇ¥ for the past year or so and IGÇÖm getting tired of trying to get my point across; the OP just sees red and cant get it into their heads why its would be very bad for this game. I'm just going to leave it to the rest of the posters here (6 pages of them) to tell you why. Really, but you can be bothered to type what you just did? As for 6 pages, you will note that there are both those for and those against in those 6 pages, so not everyone agrees with either you or I. That is the point of the discussion. People that don't want to add to it but still insist on one side being right really don't add to the discussion. Is that what you are trying to do?
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 385	Posted - 2014.01.23 18:02:00 - [119] - Quote Darken-Soul wrote: I would support an aurum respec. Conditions would have to apply. Like an isk variant. I do not support pay to win. If they are going to use the marketing angle they should do it well. Weapon respec x amount of aurum or y amount of isk. Rinse and repeat for dropsuits, vehicles, and skills. One further condition would be no skill book refund or assets refund. Another would be a 50% increase in cost for successive refunds. I like your ideas. I don't necessarily agree with an ISK version, but I also realize that it would be just as easy for a buddy to pay me ISK in game and for me to buy him aurum in return (AUR cannot be traded) and thus ISK for respec would become possible the second that AUR for respec is implemented.
bear90211 Nyain San Renegade Alliance 155	Posted - 2014.01.23 18:07:00 - [120] - Quote NOPE this is just a money pool for nothing, if CCP would listen we would get a respec every 3 months. I WANT MY MONEY BACK! Heavies are still squishy to my AR, just 5 rounds into them extra ;D hmm, I want taco's...

Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 385	Posted - 2014.01.23 18:13:00 - [121] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: Back on-topic though, there will ALWAYS be a measure of FOTM play in DUST as long as there is even the slightest hint of imbalance anywhere in the game. As long as there is that sense of advantage, AUR respecs will always - A-L-W-A-Y-S - be pay to win. And pay to win is not what DUST should be, so no. Keep arguing that you see logic behind it. I see NOPE. I do not deny that some players will think that they are doing the FOTM thing and that is honestly a valid tactic in both EVE and this game. However i would also argue that someone that already has a solid base in something that he likes (tanks for instance) won't be re-spending those skill points anytime soon. The only people that will be doing this are those that skilled into lets say rail rifles because they are so good now, but later on if the rail rifles get nerfed, then they will want to go back to scrambler rifles or something else. This only lasts until such time as they have maxed out one weapon type and are working on a second or third or fourth one... Then they no longer have a reason to PAY for a respec anymore. You have to remember there is a COST to the respec and that it isn't free. So a vet player isn't likely to do it because they have the core stuff they needed already. Anything else is kinda fluff to them. I understand your argument for it being a possible pay to win option, but assuming that CCP ever finishes the verisimilitude of the game, then they will be able to finally do a final balance pass and there will no longer be the imbalance that would make a respec pay to win. So if your argument is that aurum for respecs is pay to win because the game is broken, then duh the game is broken and that is the real reason for the imbalance, not the respecs in and of themselves.
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 385	Posted - 2014.01.23 18:14:00 - [122] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: No. No respecs outside of skill/suit/vehicle overhauls. That's final. Ok, you are entitled to your opinion. Can you please enlighten me as to how you got to that opinion?
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 385	Posted - 2014.01.23 18:17:00 - [123] - Quote bear90211 wrote: NOPE this is just a money pool for nothing, if CCP would listen we would get a respec every 3 months. I WANT MY MONEY BACK! Well seeing as how they won't be giving us a free respec at all. ( I personally would be in favor of a free one every year. ) Then the next option is a respec for AUR. And as I pointed out earlier, if you have a friend who would be willing to work with you it is possible to get a respec for ISK if done correctly.
Scott Knight Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 18	Posted - 2014.01.23 18:18:00 - [124] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Jadd Hatchen wrote: Cosgar wrote: If this is a full respec, you should have to give up 25% of your lifetime SP. An interesting idea. I know in EVE Online, if you are killed while in a clone that is not fully up to date, then you can loose a percentage of your skill points. Since there is no clone upkeep mechanism in DUST514, maybe this would be a way to accomplish that style of skill point "sink." But if there is a 25% loss, do you also mean that there should be no AUR cost for the respec? So the idea would be that if a player doesn't want to pay AUR for a monthly respec, then they can instead pay 25% of their current skill point total to get one? Would this idea still be compatible with the respecs for AUR? Interesting ideas... I'm leaning towards the direction of respecs just costing ISK and AUR. But whether we ever get them or not, new players should be allowed to respec any time they want in the academy and a mandatory one upon graduation. I made a new character and lasted like 30 min. In the academy. You need much longer for a respec to even be needed.
Soraya Xel The Corporate Raiders Top Men. 1206	Posted - 2014.01.23 18:20:00 - [125] - Quote An EVE stat respec is nothing like a skill respec, that's a hugely different thing. I'd actually be in support of skill respecs for AUR. I'd put them more in the 60,000+ AUR range though (with a few month cooldown between uses) to discourage abuse. $20 a month is actually in the range you may see FOTM users abuse it regularly. I think, to some degree, CCP has already fouled up the no-respecs bit, it already seems likely to me, that they'll never finally have a last respec, so they might as well cash in, because I want more maps. I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate
Darken-Soul Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 121	Posted - 2014.01.23 18:21:00 - [126] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: Darken-Soul wrote: I would support an aurum respec. Conditions would have to apply. Like an isk variant. I do not support pay to win. If they are going to use the marketing angle they should do it well. Weapon respec x amount of aurum or y amount of isk. Rinse and repeat for dropsuits, vehicles, and skills. One further condition would be no skill book refund or assets refund. Another would be a 50% increase in cost for successive refunds. I like your ideas. I don't necessarily agree with an ISK version, but I also realize that it would be just as easy for a buddy to pay me ISK in game and for me to buy him aurum in return (AUR cannot be traded) and thus ISK for respec would become possible the second that AUR for respec is implemented. thank you I am the real Darken
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 385	Posted - 2014.01.23 18:22:00 - [127] - Quote Scott Knight wrote: I made a new character and lasted like 30 min. In the academy. You need much longer for a respec to even be needed. I agree totally. This means that the academy itself needs an overhaul. Also providing a respec in the meantime would stop gap this stuff.
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 385	Posted - 2014.01.23 18:23:00 - [128] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: An EVE stat respec is nothing like a skill respec, that's a hugely different thing. I'd actually be in support of skill respecs for AUR. I'd put them more in the 60,000+ AUR range though (with a few month cooldown between uses) to discourage abuse. $20 a month is actually in the range you may see FOTM users abuse it regularly. I think, to some degree, CCP has already fouled up the no-respecs bit, it already seems likely to me, that they'll never finally have a last respec, so they might as well cash in, because I want more maps. Good points and I can agree with them.
Bethhy Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 904	Posted - 2014.01.23 18:24:00 - [129] - Quote Darken-Soul wrote: Perhaps inventing statistics is hurting your brain. Your arguments are becoming less and less thought out. A break from the forums might be in order. Just for you dark Jadd Hatchen wrote: Again, I've been stating that this is more of an advantage for new players. Older vets will have already decided that they want their character to be a tank driver or a dropship pilot or a heavy suit user and accrue and spend points appropriately. Once they have those things, they will just keep skilling into other things and expanding their capabilities. Boosters makes the accumulation go faster. But that is more towards what vets would do. So respec's help new players because they might waste 100k SP? or say even a million? Older Vet''s in DUST are the main users of Boosters you say? Insinuations that respec's don't alter a veterans ability to max out their gameplay? Jadd Hatchen wrote: Did CCP change the mechanics for something that you didn't want? Was an option never there for something CCP always promised but didn't deliver until later? Changing part of the game and adding things has been part of every major persistent title out there? and that's a bad thing for you? CCP promised and then delivered later? and therefore what exactly? Name one developing company who hasn't had delays in releases? even the wealthiest companies with the biggest developing teams? are they perfect? no way... but if they promised and are delivering or working on it then what? not fast enough? new content is new content. Jadd Hatchen wrote: In the long run respecs don't matter to most vets as they will already know what they want and how to get to it. So this "fear" that somehow respecs make vets even more OP are just unfounded and dumb. We have done this respec dance three times now in DUST 514. Everytime there was massive vet to new player imbalance issues.. Massive FOTM cycles happened. And the main reason people have asked for a respec on these forums is that they skilled into what was strong at the time and it got changed. Mostly because of the FOTM cycle we have gone from starting with the Caldari Logistics spam in Uprising launch and Respec. At some point it isn't an argument about me? its about a massive game imbalance that has and will happen again. Jadd Hatchen wrote: In the end respecs would only benefit the community and not harm it. When you have a game where each character varries slightly from the next based on the choices and decisions made throughout their history in DUST 514... Why would you think getting rid of that is ok? Why would someone part of this game potentially for longer have less mistakes then someone coming in with all the changes being current. So much of this just doesn't make sense for any legitmate argument in DUST 514.
Scott Knight Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 18	Posted - 2014.01.23 18:32:00 - [130] - Quote I am against respecs in a game that doesn't have a skill limit! The exceptions are for skills that are fundamentally changed. Or as a one time only deal to allow people a refund for their skills in their dropsuits for those who have been using a non racially aligned suit to go into the suit they want. After this however, I don't think any respecs should be given for any reason other than a major change to skills.

Soraya Xel The Corporate Raiders Top Men. 1206	Posted - 2014.01.23 18:34:00 - [131] - Quote I think CCP needs to make up it's mind after this release. They need to either say "This is the final respec. Period. Done." and stick with it. Or they need to release AUR respec tokens, an do it that way. I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 4369	Posted - 2014.01.23 18:39:00 - [132] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: I do not deny that some players will think that they are doing the FOTM thing and that is honestly a valid tactic in both EVE and this game. However i would also argue that someone that already has a solid base in something that he likes (tanks for instance) won't be re-spending those skill points anytime soon. The only people that will be doing this are those that skilled into lets say rail rifles because they are so good now, but later on if the rail rifles get nerfed, then they will want to go back to scrambler rifles or something else. This only lasts until such time as they have maxed out one weapon type and are working on a second or third or fourth one... Then they no longer have a reason to PAY for a respec anymore. In EVE, you can make it easier to skill into the current FOTM - or to TRY and anticipate the next FOTM and skill into that. In DUST, the suggestion being made would allow players to UN-train the skills they've trained, not to make future training into the relevant skills easier. There's a MASSIVE difference there. Quote: You have to remember there is a COST to the respec and that it isn't free. So a vet player isn't likely to do it because they have the core stuff they needed already. Anything else is kinda fluff to them. THAT'S WHY THIS PROPOSAL IS PAY TO WIN. There's a cost involved and it's a cost based in REAL MONEY, not in-game TIME like the cost involved in EVE. You spend time in EVE to train your skills. You can target the FOTM or an anticipated near-future FOTM to train your character into in EVE. BUT YOU STILL NEED TO CONTINUE TO INVEST TIME TOWARDS THOSE NEW SKILLS. If there was a system where players could designate a certain number of skills as "preferred skills" in DUST, and upgrading those skills would use 10% less SP, then it would be reasonable for players to be able to reassign their preferred skills with some kind of delay like the one proposed. But even then, it shouldn't cost real money. Just like changing your specialisation in EVE Online doesn't cost real money (at least not above the amount you're paying on the subscription). Even if something like this happens, IT WOULDN'T BE A RESPEC, IT WOULD ALLOW YOU TO MORE EFFICIENTLY INVEST IN FUTURE SKILLS. Like the system used in EVE. You don't get SP back after spending them in EVE, unless the skill tree changes and the skill you had trained is removed. You shouldn't get SP back in DUST unless there are major changes to how skills work or what they mean - like what happened with vehicles coming into 1.7, and to a lesser degree, like what will be happening with 1.8 when we get new racial weapons and suits. Quote: I understand your argument for it being a possible pay to win option, but assuming that CCP ever finishes the verisimilitude of the game, then they will be able to finally do a final balance pass and there will no longer be the imbalance that would make a respec pay to win. Until every single weapon, suit and item in the game has identical stats (pro-tip: That will happen NEVER), there will always be some form of imbalance, and there will be players who find the ideal weapon/suit combo. It might be that a particular combination is better for some maps, but another loadout will beat it somewhere else, but people will learn that too, and will take advantage as well as they can.. Quote: So if your argument is that aurum for respecs is pay to win because the game is broken, then duh the game is broken and that is the real reason for the imbalance, not the respecs in and of themselves. My argument is that the nature of diversity means the game will always be unsuitable for the proposed system. Even if my previous comment didn'were invalidated, the fact that New Eden is constantly growing and changing means that the perfect balance you're talking about will never last even if it can be reached for a moment. By the time people can be sure the game is truly balanced, a new item will be released, and that will need balancing as well, and will probably necessitate changes to other items because of how it interacts with them. CCP didn't finish perfectly balancing tanks against Swarm Launchers and Forge Guns before adding Plasma Cannons. They didn't have perfect balance between Shotguns and Assault Rifles before adding Scrambler Rifles. They didn't get everything before that point perfect before we got Combat Rifles and Rail Rifles added. THE GAME WILL NEVER BE PERFECT. Your suggestion can only work in a game that is already perfect and unchanging. Not only is perfection an impossible goal in the first place, but an unchanging DUST isn't what anyone who plays the game is here for.
Maken Tosch Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6546	Posted - 2014.01.23 18:40:00 - [133] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: No. No respecs outside of skill/suit/vehicle overhauls. That's final. Ok, you are entitled to your opinion. Can you please enlighten me as to how you got to that opinion? 1. It reinforces the negative stigma that pay-to-win carries. CCP said that Dust 514 is not going to be pay-to-win mainly because they want to avoid that stigma. Flashing pay-to-win in a video game is like flashing a copy of Playboy Magazine in the middle of an evangelical church. The reaction will definitely not be positive. 2. Welcome to New Eden. We have only three rules here. These rules have been around for 10 years. Get use to it. 1) Adapt or Die. 2) Don't use what you can't afford to lose. 3) Accept the permanent consequences of your choices. 3. CCP has already been generous enough to hand out partial SP refunds for overhauling vehicles in this current build as you have seen. They will likely be kind enough to hand out another set of partial SP refunds for overhauling the dropsuits and finally bringing in racial parity for weapons and suits. 4. To reinforce point #3, this allows you to finally spec into that one racial suit you have been waiting for after getting tired of wearing that suit from that dreaded race you always hated. Not every heavy suit in the game is a fan of the Amarr, BTW. That said, not every scout likes the Gallente or Minmatar. But we didn't have much a choice back then, did we? No. We scouts were only given two races (Gallente or Minmatar) while the heavies practically had no choice at all (Amarr only). So once the remaining suits come in, we are likely going to get only a limited SP refund for suits so we can finally pick the race we were waiting for. That's the only exception I can make for respecs. 5. Beyond overhauls and racial parity, I'm going to reinforce the third rule stated in point #2. General respecs on demand (whether free or paid) will undermine the point of the game in which your choices matter. In order for your choices to have meaning, you need to have permanent consequences. If you can just undo those consequences, than your choices had no meaning. 6. Respecs on demand will negatively affect CCP's income source (Boosters) since anyone with 10 million SP or more will simply swap to another specialty without further investment into cross training. Eve Online subscriptions can only cover Dust development for so long. By the way, Eve players wouldn't like it at all to see their subscription money being used to fund a pay-to-win game when they themselves don't like pay-to-win. 7. To reinforce point #6, this will also cheapen the value of skill points. Having any more than 10 million SP will just become pointless since 10 million is usually all it takes to max out one specialty. OK, CCP. When are knives finally going to be improved? *CLOSED BETA VETERAN SINCE REPLICATION BUILD*
Darken-Soul Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 121	Posted - 2014.01.23 18:45:00 - [134] - Quote Bethhy wrote: Just for you dark Much better. Could you go find my proposal and do the same. If CCP ever does offer purchasable respecs they should do it right. Any feedback would be useful. I am the real Darken
Maken Tosch Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6546	Posted - 2014.01.23 18:46:00 - [135] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: I think CCP needs to make up it's mind after this release. They need to either say "This is the final respec. Period. Done." and stick with it. Or they need to release AUR respec tokens, an do it that way. Ooooorrr.... they could just release a series of partial respecs for suits/vehicles/weapons that have been affected due to overhauls and racial parity. I estimate (after this one) we will likely receive an additional partial respec once all racial tanks come out (Amarr and Minmatar). OK, CCP. When are knives finally going to be improved? *CLOSED BETA VETERAN SINCE REPLICATION BUILD*
low genius The Sound Of Freedom Renegade Alliance 1118	Posted - 2014.01.23 19:14:00 - [136] - Quote one of the worst ideas on the forums. you cannot let people pay for respecs.
Darken-Soul Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 121	Posted - 2014.01.23 19:16:00 - [137] - Quote low genius wrote: one of the worst ideas on the forums. you cannot let people pay for respecs. why not? I am the real Darken
low genius The Sound Of Freedom Renegade Alliance 1119	Posted - 2014.01.23 19:31:00 - [138] - Quote Darken-Soul wrote: low genius wrote: one of the worst ideas on the forums. you cannot let people pay for respecs. why not? there have been so many reasons listed. you could use the search function if you really wanted to know. someone on THIS PAGE gave you 7 reasons why this is a terrible idea. what's wrong with those reasons?
low genius The Sound Of Freedom Renegade Alliance 1119	Posted - 2014.01.23 19:32:00 - [139] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Jadd Hatchen wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: No. No respecs outside of skill/suit/vehicle overhauls. That's final. Ok, you are entitled to your opinion. Can you please enlighten me as to how you got to that opinion? 1. It reinforces the negative stigma that pay-to-win carries. CCP said that Dust 514 is not going to be pay-to-win mainly because they want to avoid that stigma. Flashing pay-to-win in a video game is like flashing a copy of Playboy Magazine in the middle of an evangelical church. The reaction will definitely not be positive. 2. Welcome to New Eden. We have only three rules here. These rules have been around for 10 years. Get use to it. 1) Adapt or Die. 2) Don't use what you can't afford to lose. 3) Accept the permanent consequences of your choices. 3. CCP has already been generous enough to hand out partial SP refunds for overhauling vehicles in this current build as you have seen. They will likely be kind enough to hand out another set of partial SP refunds for overhauling the dropsuits and finally bringing in racial parity for weapons and suits. 4. To reinforce point #3, this allows you to finally spec into that one racial suit you have been waiting for after getting tired of wearing that suit from that dreaded race you always hated. Not every heavy suit in the game is a fan of the Amarr, BTW. That said, not every scout likes the Gallente or Minmatar. But we didn't have much a choice back then, did we? No. We scouts were only given two races (Gallente or Minmatar) while the heavies practically had no choice at all (Amarr only). So once the remaining suits come in, we are likely going to get only a limited SP refund for suits so we can finally pick the race we were waiting for. That's the only exception I can make for respecs. 5. Beyond overhauls and racial parity, I'm going to reinforce the third rule stated in point #2. General respecs on demand (whether free or paid) will undermine the point of the game in which your choices matter. In order for your choices to have meaning, you need to have permanent consequences. If you can just undo those consequences, than your choices had no meaning. 6. Respecs on demand will negatively affect CCP's income source (Boosters) since anyone with 10 million SP or more will simply swap to another specialty without further investment into cross training. Eve Online subscriptions can only cover Dust development for so long. By the way, Eve players wouldn't like it at all to see their subscription money being used to fund a pay-to-win game when they themselves don't like pay-to-win. 7. To reinforce point #6, this will also cheapen the value of skill points. Having any more than 10 million SP will just become pointless since 10 million is usually all it takes to max out one specialty. for all of these reasons, and so many more.
knight of 6 SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 1227	Posted - 2014.01.23 19:34:00 - [140] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: knight of 6 wrote: no aurum respecs thanks. Nice to hear, but may I ask you why you feel this way? yea, sure. this is new eden you choices should have consequences. however the consequences should be the result of your actions, not role redifinement by CCP. "God favors the side with the best artillery" ~ Napoleon Ko6, scout. CLOSED BETA VET

Darken-Soul Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 124	Posted - 2014.01.23 19:35:00 - [141] - Quote low genius wrote: Darken-Soul wrote: low genius wrote: one of the worst ideas on the forums. you cannot let people pay for respecs. why not? there have been so many reasons listed. you could use the search function if you really wanted to know. someone on THIS PAGE gave you 7 reasons why this is a terrible idea. what's wrong with those reasons? do you have any of your own? Or do you just post your opinion? I am the real Darken
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 395	Posted - 2014.01.23 19:52:00 - [142] - Quote Bethhy wrote: So respec's help new players because they might waste 100k SP? or say even a million? Older Vet''s in DUST are the main users of Boosters you say? Insinuations that respec's don't alter a veterans ability to max out their gameplay? Yes and no. First off, yes, a respec at some point like let's say 5 to 10 million SP is advantageous to a newer player. Most newer players have skilled up a few levels in most weapons just to try them out or because they didn't know that the skill really didn't affect what they thought it did. Whether that was due to them not understanding the descriptions or the descriptions not being clear who knows. But it happens. So by that point they have figured out what things they like about the game and what things they don't like. At that point a skill respec would be a good thing for the newer player so that they can "reclaim" the points that they spread out everywhere while trying to determine what it was they liked. Not everyone will do this. Some (like me) would rather keep the points spread out anyways because I want to eventually get more and more skills in more and more things. However I had the advantage of growing up in a world of beta players where we all had approximately the same number of SP together so there wasn't this huge gap between what I could do and what another player could do. But a new player doesn't get that luxury. The need to be concise and exact with how they spec out thier skills so that they can at least compete in ONE thing somewhat well enough to contribute to the team. I never said that older vet's in DUST are the main user of boosters. In actuality boosters help the newer players get more points faster (and thus able to try out more and different things quicker) than they would help out a vet. I don't insinuate anything other than it would be available to all. If a vet wanted to respec outof vehicles and go into heavies or vice versa, then so be it. But that is less likely to happen than a newbie who realized that they wasted a few million skillpoints on an assault suit (because it was he default suit and so he thought he should max it out) only to find out that skills have no effect on militia suits and it was the logistics suit that he wanted all along. Bethhy wrote: Changing part of the game and adding things has been part of every major persistent title out there? and that's a bad thing for you? CCP promised and then delivered later? and therefore what exactly? Name one developing company who hasn't had delays in releases? even the wealthiest companies with the biggest developing teams? are they perfect? no way... but if they promised and are delivering or working on it then what? not fast enough? new content is new content. In EVE when something new is introduced, it is introduced so that EVERY race can take advantage of it. No favorites are played, no faction has a leg up on the other inherently, and you don't give a battleship to only two sides and tell the other two sides that they have to wait years for theirs to come. If that happened, then the EVE players without the battleships would have two choices (3 really), they can loose to the sides with battleships, or they can train up for the enemy style battleships and end up with a ton of wasted skillpoints when their battleships finally show up. This is the situation that we have in DUST right now. Ony two races have vehicles and vehicle weapons. Only one race has heavy dropsuits. Only two races have light dropsuits. Only two races have heavy weapons. etc. This is inherently unbalanced and if and ENTIRE race of players sticks with the idea that they should never skill into vehicles because their race doesn't have any, then they become screwed over in gameplay. Now I don't mind that new stuff gets added to a game. Hell I've been playing EVE for 10+ years now and what keeps me coming back is the fact that they keep adding in more and more goodness. However they add it into the game for ALL to use not just a few or one faction. So for example, if they add in both Caldari and Amarr light dropsuits AFTER those two races had to skill into either Minmatar or Gallente light dropsuits, then that would seem to be unfair to the Amarr and Caldari players. However if they add in pilot dropsuits for all four races at the same time, then that is ok because everyone would have equal opportunity to skill into them. Bethhy wrote: We have done this respec dance three times now in DUST 514. Everytime there was massive vet to new player imbalance issues.. Massive FOTM cycles happened. And the main reason people have asked for a respec on these forums is that they skilled into what was strong at the time and it got changed. Mostly because of the FOTM cycle we have gone from starting with the Caldari Logistics spam in Uprising launch and Respec. At some point it isn't an argument about me? its about a massive game imbalance that has and will happen again. I never said that FOTM didn't happen, however what you forgot is that in the past when respecs happened they also coincided with massive gameplay changes. It wasn't the respec alone that cause the FOTM imbalance it was the combination of the two. Bethhy wrote: When you have a game where each character varies slightly from the next, based on the choices and decisions made throughout their history in DUST 514... Why would you think getting rid of that is ok? or would make the game itself better. Why would someone(A Vet) that has been part of this game for potentially longer have less mistakes then someone coming into DUST with all the changes being current?. So much of this just doesn't make sense for any legitimate argument for Respecializations as a store bought item for DUST 514. Why do you think penalizing players for bad choices in this game is somehow good for it's longevity?
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 395	Posted - 2014.01.23 19:59:00 - [143] - Quote Scott Knight wrote: I am against respecs in a game that doesn't have a skill limit! The exceptions are for skills that are fundamentally changed. Or as a one time only deal to allow people a refund for their skills in their dropsuits for those who have been using a non racially aligned suit to go into the suit they want. After this however, I don't think any respecs should be given for any reason other than a major change to skills. Ok I can see that. Only respec one they finish the verisimilitude of the game. Unfortunately when will that be? I agree that a lot of people have skilled into the Amarr Heavy Dropsuit line of skills because it was the ONLY heavy suit available and a good team should have some heavies in it. And thus when the new heavy dropsuits become available, the players should have the option to trade in their Amarr heavies for lets say Gallente heavies. But Amarr dropsuits work best with armor tanking. Caldari or Minmatar may work better with shields... Now what? Do we refund all the armor skillpoints too?
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 395	Posted - 2014.01.23 20:00:00 - [144] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: I think CCP needs to make up it's mind after this release. They need to either say "This is the final respec. Period. Done." and stick with it. Or they need to release AUR respec tokens, an do it that way. It would be nice. I agree.
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 395	Posted - 2014.01.23 20:14:00 - [145] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: {said lots of good things} I still don't see it at pay to win. You already had the skillpoints and could have in theory had them spent that way to begin with. A new player comes in and can still skill into the exact same things given time. All it does is speed things up and that is exactly what the AUR market is meant for. I like your 10% bonus to prefered or 'chosen profession" skills idea. I hope someone in CCP sees that one. While in EVE you don't have this option, in EVE you don't have to log in and play to earn the bulk of your skillpoints. They just accrue over time. Time that you pay for with a subscription. So what is the difference in paying for skillpoint accrual there or paying to rearrange them here? Which of those actually sounds better on paper? As for the "real money" cost, yeah AUR is real money. But I can guarantee you that as soon as it's implemented people will go to friends or whomever to trade ISK for money to buy the AUR to get the respecs anyways and thus they are available for ISK too. Agreed that you don't get SP back in EVE, but in EVE they didn't cause an imbalance by only allowing the Caldari and Gallente to have the only ships like they did with vehicles in DUST. I'm not saying that every race's weapons need to be the same. I'm saying that until CCP has ALL the races versions of weapons, suits, equipment, and vehicles out there, they will not know how they interact. Without knowing how they will interact, then there is no way to balance them properly against one another. And balance doesn't mean EQUAL it just means viable. Kinda like rock, paper, scissors. One weapon works better in one situation than another, but gets beat by another weapon in a different situation, etc. I'm also agreeing that the game will never be perfect. The game especially will never be perfect to every single players' expectations either. So to fix that, allow respecs and let the players balance it out themselves.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 2228	Posted - 2014.01.23 20:28:00 - [146] - Quote 1 - How much should an Aurum respec cost? - $100, whatever that works out to in AURUM. 2 - How often should they be allowed to happen per character? - @ $100, as often as you want. (Might help CCP hire a few more Devs.) 3 - Should free respecs ever be allowed again? - Only for Dropsuit Command, when all racial variant suits are added. 4 - Should a respec be "bankable?" - Maybe? 5 - How might this affect the fiction or back story of the game (if we care)? - Cybernetic reprogramming? Fox Gaden: DUST Wall of Fame, 2014
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 395	Posted - 2014.01.23 20:28:00 - [147] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: 1. It reinforces the negative stigma that pay-to-win carries. CCP said that Dust 514 is not going to be pay-to-win mainly because they want to avoid that stigma. Flashing pay-to-win in a video game is like flashing a copy of Playboy Magazine in the middle of an evangelical church. The reaction will definitely not be positive. That is just it. How is paying for a respec = to pay to win? You still had to earn all those skillpoints. You are not magically gaining some skill that no one without a respec can get. Everything you skill into is the exact same stuff that anyone that doesn't pay to get can still get. In fact they can get there for free and you are paying for it? How is that winning? Maken Tosch wrote: 2. Welcome to New Eden. We have only three rules here. These rules have been around for 10 years. Get use to it. 1) Adapt or Die. 2) Don't use what you can't afford to lose. 3) Accept the permanent consequences of your choices. LOL, Well I have to agree with all those. However I would sit better with #3 if CCP had put out vehicles for all races at the same time instead of forcing the Amarr and Minmatar players to us another races' stuff. Maken Tosch wrote: 3. CCP has already been generous enough to hand out partial SP refunds for overhauling vehicles in this current build as you have seen. They will likely be kind enough to hand out another set of partial SP refunds for overhauling the dropsuits and finally bringing in racial parity for weapons and suits. 4. To reinforce point #3, this allows you to finally spec into that one racial suit you have been waiting for after getting tired of wearing that suit from that dreaded race you always hated. Not every heavy suit in the game is a fan of the Amarr, BTW. That said, not every scout likes the Gallente or Minmatar. But we didn't have much a choice back then, did we? No. We scouts were only given two races (Gallente or Minmatar) while the heavies practically had no choice at all (Amarr only). So once the remaining suits come in, we are likely going to get only a limited SP refund for suits so we can finally pick the race we were waiting for. That's the only exception I can make for respecs. ROTFLMAO. If they do that for dorpsuits in 1.8 I'll be very surprised. The only reason they did it in 1.7 was because the skills no longer existed. However they are not removing any skills and thus will have no reason for a refund. Maken Tosch wrote: 5. Beyond overhauls and racial parity, I'm going to reinforce the third rule stated in point #2. General respecs on demand (whether free or paid) will undermine the point of the game in which your choices matter. In order for your choices to have meaning, you need to have permanent consequences. If you can just undo those consequences, than your choices had no meaning. I would agree with you except for the problem that you just pointed out yourself above about being force into the wrong suits to begin with. They won't be giving and refunds for that because you can still use the wrong suits even though you no longer like them. So since I know they WON'T be giving us the refund for their mistakes, I am trying to offer an admittedly flawed solution that can make up for it. Maken Tosch wrote: 6. Respecs on demand will negatively affect CCP's income source (Boosters) since anyone with 10 million SP or more will simply swap to another specialty without further investment into cross training. Eve Online subscriptions can only cover Dust development for so long. By the way, Eve players wouldn't like it at all to see their subscription money being used to fund a pay-to-win game when they themselves don't like pay-to-win. 7. To reinforce point #6, this will also cheapen the value of skill points. Having any more than 10 million SP will just become pointless since 10 million is usually all it takes to max out one specialty. Ok, I can concede that there may be a negative effect on the boosters market. However that is why they should be more expensive AND limited to only once every 3 or 6 months or maybe even longer. This would not significantly cut into the booster market. However it usually takes a new player around 5 to 10 million skill points to really figure out how they want to play the game.
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 395	Posted - 2014.01.23 20:30:00 - [148] - Quote knight of 6 wrote: Jadd Hatchen wrote: knight of 6 wrote: no aurum respecs thanks. Nice to hear, but may I ask you why you feel this way? yea, sure. this is new eden you choices should have consequences. however the consequences should be the result of your actions, not role redifinement by CCP. Your reply would seem to indicate that you support the idea that once verisimilitude or racial parity is reached then a respec or partical respec should be offered. I would agree with that, however I'm pretty sure CCP won't be doing that. That is why my next option is respecs for aurum.
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 395	Posted - 2014.01.23 20:36:00 - [149] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: 1 - How much should an Aurum respec cost? - $100, whatever that works out to in AURUM. 2 - How often should they be allowed to happen per character? - @ $100, as often as you want. (Might help CCP hire a few more Devs.) 3 - Should free respecs ever be allowed again? - Only for Dropsuit Command, when all racial variant suits are added. 4 - Should a respec be "bankable?" - Maybe? 5 - How might this affect the fiction or back story of the game (if we care)? - Cybernetic reprogramming? All very good ideas. 1 - I personally think that $100 is kinda high, but the last suggestion was like $20... maybe somewhere in between is right. 2 - If not at $100 how often if it is less... Like at $20? 3 - If only then, the what happens when the add in the Amarr and Minmatar vehicles? 4 - Yeah, I've since thought about it and I'm leaning towards no. 5 - True, if you read "Templar One" the skills to use the weapons are already implanted in the clones. thank you for your ideas.
Darken-Soul Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 129	Posted - 2014.01.23 22:38:00 - [150] - Quote Darken-Soul wrote: I would support an aurum respec. Conditions would have to apply. Like an isk variant. I do not support pay to win. If they are going to use the marketing angle they should do it well. Weapon respec x amount of aurum or y amount of isk. Rinse and repeat for dropsuits, vehicles, and skills. One further condition would be no skill book refund or assets refund. Another would be a 50% increase in cost for successive refunds. I am the real Darken

Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 402	Posted - 2014.01.24 19:38:00 - [151] - Quote As this discussion has changed and evolved, so have my thoughts on the answers to these questions. So I'm going to update my initial answers: 1 - How much should an Aurum respec cost? 2 - How often should they be allowed to happen per character? 3 - Should free respecs ever be allowed again? 4 - Should a respec be "bankable?" 5 - How might this affect the fiction or back story of the game (if we care)? But I'm also adding in a new one: 6 - Should ISK be allowed to pay for a respec? 1 - I now think at least $20 so the 40,000 aurum is a good start, but more would be ok as well. 2 - Originally i thought once a month was ok, but now I believe that once every 3 months would curtail a lot of the FOTM chasers. 3 - I believe that a free respec should be offered by CCP once all the races' vehicles are added to the game (ie. Amarr and Minmatar). After that probably not for anyone other than newbies who graduate from the academy assuming that they overhaul the academy first. 4 - After thinking about this, the answer should be no. Again to discourage FOTM chasers. 5 - It's easily explained by the fact that the clones are pre-programmed with the knowledges to use stuff in the fiction. 6 - I don't think it will be needed initially. Besides which if players want to work it out themselves, they can always trade ISK privately for other things anyways. So that's where I'm at for now.
deepfried salad gilliam Sanguine Knights 398	Posted - 2014.01.24 19:56:00 - [152] - Quote use the search function and read the forum rules. this has been said before and nothing new is contributed. Proud Christian one of the most essential parts of eve is left out of dust: freedom, exploration, open-world gameplay.
Maken Tosch Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6563	Posted - 2014.01.24 20:01:00 - [153] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: That is just it. How is paying for a respec = to pay to win? You still had to earn all those skillpoints. You are not magically gaining some skill that no one without a respec can get. Everything you skill into is the exact same stuff that anyone that doesn't pay to get can still get. In fact they can get there for free and you are paying for it? How is that winning? It enables you to instantly swap SP and focus them into the FOTM as weapons, suits, and vehicles get rebalanced over the next 10 years. Quote: LOL, Well I have to agree with all those. However I would sit better with #3 if CCP had put out vehicles for all races at the same time instead of forcing the Amarr and Minmatar players to us another races' stuff. Again, instituting racial parity is the only excuse I would allow respecs and even then you should only get a respec of the items affected. Quote: ROTFLMAO. If they do that for dorpsuits in 1.8 I'll be very surprised. The only reason they did it in 1.7 was because the skills no longer existed. However they are not removing any skills and thus will have no reason for a refund. That's still up to debate. CCP is swapping a lot of bonuses around. For example, many players trained up logis to take advantage of the hacking bonus. But now that Minmatar scouts are getting that bonus instead and it looks like the logi bonus to equipment fitting won't affect the cloaking equipment in particular, many logibros out there would want a partial respec of that suit affected. Quote: I would agree with you except for the problem that you just pointed out yourself above about being force into the wrong suits to begin with. They won't be giving and refunds for that because you can still use the wrong suits even though you no longer like them. So since I know they WON'T be giving us the refund for their mistakes, I am trying to offer an admittedly flawed solution that can make up for it. Again, only when racial parity is needed would I support a respec and even then I prefer that the respec be limited to items affected. Case in point, the suits and maybe the weapons. But that is up to CCP to decide. Quote: Ok, I can concede that there may be a negative effect on the boosters market. However that is why they should be more expensive AND limited to only once every 3 or 6 months or maybe even longer. This would not significantly cut into the booster market. However it usually takes a new player around 5 to 10 million skill points to really figure out how they want to play the game. Honestly, I think it's better that Dust should adopt a proper alternative to the "respec on demand" system you're suggesting. That, to me at least, is the skill book attribute system couple with the Neural Remaps that Eve Online has. In Eve Online, all skill books have two of the five attributes: Willpower Perception Memory Intelligence Charisma Every player has these attributes, but depending on the kind of implants that they have, the number of points within these attributes will vary. If you have more points within Willpower and Perception, than any skill book that has these two attributes will be much easier to train into. But you end up taking longer to train up other skill books as their attributes will have less points in them. Every year or so, Eve players are given a chance to rearrange those attributes however they like. This is nothing like a traditional respec, however, since no SP is being rearranged. Only attribute points and the amount of time invested into a skill book varies. But once you train up a skill to say level 3 that has high attribute points into it, that skill level is yours forever regardless if it loses attribute points in the next Neural Remap. This can work well in Dust. The more attribute points for a skill book affected, the less SP needed to train it up. Once trained to any level, that level is yours regardless if that book loses attribute points later on. OK, CCP. When are knives finally going to be improved? *CLOSED BETA VETERAN SINCE REPLICATION BUILD*
Maken Tosch Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6563	Posted - 2014.01.24 20:08:00 - [154] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: As this discussion has changed and evolved, so have my thoughts on the answers to these questions. So I'm going to update my initial answers: 1 - How much should an Aurum respec cost? 2 - How often should they be allowed to happen per character? 3 - Should free respecs ever be allowed again? 4 - Should a respec be "bankable?" 5 - How might this affect the fiction or back story of the game (if we care)? But I'm also adding in a new one: 6 - Should ISK be allowed to pay for a respec? 1 - I now think at least $20 so the 40,000 aurum is a good start, but more would be ok as well. 2 - Originally i thought once a month was ok, but now I believe that once every 3 months would curtail a lot of the FOTM chasers. 3 - I believe that a free respec should be offered by CCP once all the races' vehicles are added to the game (ie. Amarr and Minmatar). After that probably not for anyone other than newbies who graduate from the academy assuming that they overhaul the academy first. 4 - After thinking about this, the answer should be no. Again to discourage FOTM chasers. 5 - It's easily explained by the fact that the clones are pre-programmed with the knowledges to use stuff in the fiction. 6 - I don't think it will be needed initially. Besides which if players want to work it out themselves, they can always trade ISK privately for other things anyways. So that's where I'm at for now. To answer your questions. 1. Assuming I am forced to swallow my pride and accept respecs, they should be FREE. No AUR. 2. Again, if forced to swallow my pride... once... in the character's lifetime. 3. Only when an overhaul comes that affects the item in question or racial parity results from it. 4. Hell no. 5. It won't. At least not much at all if it ever does. 6. Maybe since cash is not involved. Again, I prefer the alternative that I proposed. OK, CCP. When are knives finally going to be improved? *CLOSED BETA VETERAN SINCE REPLICATION BUILD*
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 402	Posted - 2014.01.24 20:35:00 - [155] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Again, instituting racial parity is the only excuse I would allow respecs and even then you should only get a respec of the items affected. That's still up to debate. CCP is swapping a lot of bonuses around. For example, many players trained up logis to take advantage of the hacking bonus. But now that Minmatar scouts are getting that bonus instead and it looks like the logi bonus to equipment fitting won't affect the cloaking equipment in particular, many logibros out there would want a partial respec of that suit affected. I totally agree with the idea of respecs for racial parity or verisimilitude. However if the 1.7 refund is to be used as an example, then CCP even screwed that one up. They added in all the assault rifle variants and never gave any refunds for the Gallente plasma (assault) rifles and the Amar scrambler rifles. They only worried about the vehicle skills that were REMOVED from the game entirely. This leads me to believe that they will likely take the stand that if a skill is not removed, then you are still able to benefit from it so why refund? As for changing role bonuses, they just did that in EVE online on a massive scale to many many many ships and it was called tiericide rebalancing. They are still in the process of doing it in EVE. But basically a ship that once did one job in EVE now does a completely new job. (Tech 1 EWAR frigs specifically come to mind.) No respecs or refunds occurred there either. See the real problem is if they allow respecs for suits, then they will need to allow the same for the supporting skills. This is because each race tanks differently. The Amarr use armor, the Caldari use shields. So if you allow a respec for racial parity from Amarr heavy to Caldari Heavy, cool, but now that guy has all these maxed out Armor Upgrade skills that no longer help the Caldari suit as much as maxed out Shield Upgrades would. So now you have to offer a respec on those too? A lot of the skills in this game are interdependent and are related to one another for an effective whole to be assembled. THAT is the reason that a full respec should be made available and at the control of the players. CCP devs have no real idea how every player in the game is going to come up with ideas on how to use the stuff. CCP just makes the stuff and throws it to us to use in the 'sandbox' and we the players come up with how to best use it. So much evolves in this game and in EVE based on how players decided to do things that were so radically different or unthought of by the devs that the game is more a collaboration of both players and devs than just the devs alone. Maken Tosch wrote: Again, only when racial parity is needed would I support a respec and even then I prefer that the respec be limited to items affected. Case in point, the suits and maybe the weapons. But that is up to CCP to decide. Honestly, I think it's better that Dust should adopt a proper alternative to the "respec on demand" system you're suggesting. That, to me at least, is the skill book attribute system couple with the Neural Remaps that Eve Online has. In Eve Online, all skill books have two of the five attributes: Willpower Perception Memory Intelligence Charisma Every player has these attributes, but depending on the kind of implants that they have, the number of points within these attributes will vary. If you have more points within Willpower and Perception, than any skill book that has these two attributes will be much easier to train into. But you end up taking longer to train up other skill books as their attributes will have less points in them. Every year or so, Eve players are given a chance to rearrange those attributes however they like. This is nothing like a traditional respec, however, since no SP is being rearranged. Only attribute points and the amount of time invested into a skill book varies. But once you train up a skill to say level 3 that has high attribute points into it, that skill level is yours forever regardless if it loses attribute points in the next Neural Remap. This can work well in Dust. The more attribute points for a skill book affected, the less SP needed to train it up. Once trained to any level, that level is yours regardless if that book loses attribute points later on. Actually this would be an AWESOME idea! I wish they would do that as that would more directly pair the two games together again! I would support that idea. However that would require a big overhaul of how they do the passive skillpoint system and wouldn't happen anytime soonGäó. I've always thought that the attribute list in EVE was only representative of what the pod pilots used. Hence no Strength and Stamina. But I would think that both games would benefit from the usage of all the skills. So I would see a full list of attributes for both games as: Willpower Perception Memory Intelligence Charisma Strength Stamina This would allow for later direct interactions between EVE pilots (outside of pods) and DUST mercenaries on stations etc. Since pod pilots spend like 90% of their lives in pods, they would probably have minimal Strength and Stamina scores unless specifically cloned into a clone with those stats made to be higher (ie. they do a neural remap). Although the term neural remap would have to be changed to be something like "clone reconfiguration". But yeah, because DUST had to "dumb things down" when they created their system, they also dumbed down the options for fixing problems. Thus respecs became the defacto way to fix things now. 8(
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 406	Posted - 2014.01.28 16:51:00 - [156] - Quote Bumping as I believe this is still relevant to the future of DUST.
Ayures II Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 352	Posted - 2014.01.28 16:55:00 - [157] - Quote Down with this sort of thing. Respecs are for scrubs.
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 4098	Posted - 2014.01.28 16:58:00 - [158] - Quote Ayures II wrote: Down with this sort of thing. Respecs are for scrubs. Saying no to respecs is also for scrubs. Want to know how to make a strike through with your text? [s[Example Text[/s] Now go Forum Warriors. Use The Weapon!
Jadd Hatchen The Phoenix Federation 417	Posted - 2014.03.27 18:31:00 - [159] - Quote Bumping this again as I still believe that it is a relevant topic. To be more specific, the topic is: Should there be respecs for Aurum. Not refunds for patch changes etc.
Aikuchi Tomaru Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2123	Posted - 2014.03.27 18:33:00 - [160] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: Bumping this again as I still believe that it is a relevant topic. To be more specific, the topic is: Should there be respecs for Aurum. Not refunds for patch changes etc. No. /closed Sign up for Caldari FW and defeat the evil Gallente Overlords!

Jadd Hatchen The Phoenix Federation 419	Posted - 2014.03.27 18:36:00 - [161] - Quote Aikuchi Tomaru wrote: No. /closed /not closed successfully It's a discussion, not a poll. A simple yes or no answer without any following explanation as to how you got to that opinion doesn't qualify as discussion.
Dauth Jenkins Ultramarine Corp 321	Posted - 2014.03.27 19:06:00 - [162] - Quote gbghg wrote: No, respecs should not be made available at all, the only, and i repeat only time that something like that should happen is when they overhaul the skill tree, if only certain skills are being changed then refund the sp in that skill if the change requires it, putting in a pay to respec scheme skips a little too close to the p2w line imo. sp investment is significant, you should not be able to just wipe it away whenever, if well timed it have serious repercussions in a pc battle, it will enable those who pay aur to respec into whatever is the current FOTM gear, effectively turning it into a p2w cycle. an eve saying comes to mind, no sp is wasted, a 100,000 you dump into a useless skill might end up saving you a lot of time if you later decide to switch to a role that gets usage out of that skill. A respec should be mandatory after the academy, because blueberries spend sp on random stuff before realizing their mistake. Sees prototompers... Sees blueberries start to snipe... Pulls out commando suit with laser rifle and swarm launcher...
WUT ANG D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 154	Posted - 2014.03.27 19:13:00 - [163] - Quote Should this topic be a sticky. 4KD Minmatar Assault Weapon sp refund please


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