Please don't.

if you didnt think ahead before you bought and used aurum, then your a dumbass.

this is not the end of loss, but just the beginning.

If this is a full respec, you should have to give up 25% of your lifetime SP.

I'm leaning towards the direction of respecs just costing ISK and AUR. But whether we ever get them or not, new players should be allowed to respec any time they want in the academy and a mandatory one upon graduation.

No, respecs should not be made available at all, the only, and i repeat only time that something like that should happen is when they overhaul the skill tree, if only certain skills are being changed then refund the sp in that skill if the change requires it, putting in a pay to respec scheme skips a little too close to the p2w line imo. sp investment is significant, you should not be able to just wipe it away whenever, if well timed it have serious repercussions in a pc battle, it will enable those who pay aur to respec into whatever is the current FOTM gear, effectively turning it into a p2w cycle. an eve saying comes to mind, no sp is wasted, a 100,000 you dump into a useless skill might end up saving you a lot of time if you later decide to switch to a role that gets usage out of that skill.

But here's the thing though. Console gaming is changing and so is the culture. How can one be certain that respecs are ever going to be needed once the culture has changed?

Pretty much. They got things sort of right with the academy the first time around. Having a safe little sandbox for newberries to get a feel for the game was only a temporary solution since matchmaking wasn't their top priority but could have been built upon to enhance new player experience. Looking at how things are now, people curse out blueberries, but a lot of them really should still be in the academy because they literally don't know any better. I proposed my ideas before, but I'll post them here to in case if a Dev is reading:

-100,000 WP or 5,000,000 SP needed to graduate. (Whichever happens first)
-Make public battles available after 25,000 WP while still enrolled in the academy to gauge skill level.
-Ban anything above standard and basic gear in academy battles.
-Starter fits of every specialized militia frame with militia variants of all existing weapons to encourage role diversity.
-Unlimited and free respecs while enrolled in the academy with no penalty.
-Add tutorial based secondary objectives that teach basic skills like menus, using equipment and vehicles with rewards.
-Accelerated SP gain until 5,000,00 SP with no weekly cap whether in the academy or not.
-Free and mandatory respec upon graduation with a prompt reminding the player that there will be no more respecs.

Not bad, OP. Not enough to convince me resets for AUR is okay, but I like the limits you placed on it.

My favorite respec idea is, and always will be, DUST Fiend's slow rolling respec idea: You get one bankable respec point per week. One respec point undoes a single rank of a single skill.

That way it's a balanced, gradual process, and you can't just hop on the FoTM every month once the patch notes come out.

I thought it was a brilliant idea, gotta give the dude credit.

Things I like about Respec for Aurum: gives players a choice, gives CCP income

Things I dont like about respec for Aurum: adds to the Pay to Win argument

Comment: if CCP allows players to sell Aurum for isk ( the way they do with Plex) this could help to reduce the P2W contention

I personally think

1) It should cost 100,000 aurm

2) It should make you lose 30% of your total SP

I'd prefer not to see respecs at all as I think they devalue the investment we all make in our mercs, which in turn takes away one of the key differentiators of Dust.

That said, I understand why they may be appropriate when CCP make wholesale changes to the skills structure of the game.

I guess I could also support a (partial) respec system that preserves the investment somehow. For example, it might be possible to "untrain" levels of skills, which would return a portion (60% maybe?) of the SP spent, as an accelerator to SP earned. For example, if you spent 320K SP on level 5 of a skill, untraining it would double your SP earning rate until you'd earned back an extra 192K SP.

I can imagine an Aurum booster that reduces the proportion of the SP that is lost, and I can also imagine CCP dynamically changing the loss % for specific skills in specific situations: setting the loss to only 15% on vehicle skills after a vehicle rebalance, for example.

If you are doing that, I would it rather it cost no aur and be at a 60% reduction in total sp

Money bought respecs are a benefit to online games both free and paid for. Look at Dcu online. If a person wants to pay to spec into something else they feel is a better suit for their playing style then let them. It's a brilliant idea.

You have to give something up to get something. It's the way the world works. Or you could just use that infinite amount of lifetime SP you get to spec into another role while keeping the one you have. You don't need proto to play a new specialization on the first day.

in eve you don't lose a percentage of you sp. you lose your biggest skill. even if it took you 2 months to get. it's gone, and gone forever.

You realize that this would make the game p2w right?

At least make an ISK respec (that doesn't cost something ridiculously high like 50m)

[quote=low genius]No. You do realize that only 100 people would be able afford that right? But.. Screw time and investment I should just throw cash at my PS3

Do you know how long it would take to complete all the skill books?

If you spend 2mil SP on something, just to have it changed a few weeks later, before everyone else, then no it should matter what you use.

What if I made everything you had useless? Nope don't be upset your SP and time doesn't matter at all

Real money for respecs = pay to be FOTM which is essentially pay 2 win which would be very bad for the game

You actually have to play the game as well with the booster. Also if you max out weekly with 30 days active and passive boosters both you get little over 2.3 million SP which gets you proto in a new suit or maxes out 1 new weapon. An Aurum respec lets you completely rearrange what could be what about 27 - 30 million SP for some people right now? That's a big difference

How about having it like EVE's attribute system? Where you can set them once a year but a respec?

After the respec due for implementing basic content;

40,000 Aurum. (Less, and you demean the value. More, and you eliminate a potential source of income.)
Available once every 720 hours. (Again, longer cool down, less profitability.)
No SP reduction. (Removing bought SP is just bad business.)

0 Aurum, just a -35% reduction in total sp

A loss of 25% total SP seem like alot to me.
I have hit 4m total sp recently and losing 1m of it just to get back that 1.4m that i put into the wrong place.
i would lose 1m while only gaining 400k.
sounds a bit over the top for me.

After the respec due for implementing basic content;

40,000 Aurum. (Less, and you demean the value. More, and you eliminate a potential source of income.)
Available once every 720 hours. (Again, longer cool down, less profitability.)
No SP reduction. (Removing bought SP is just bad business.)

I have no issues with a respec being sold for AUR. Personally I would rather see something like a 2 or so month cool down rather than a SP penalty. Maybe an SP penalty is okay, but loosing SP that you likely paid for to then pay to reallocate SP feels off.

I think it would make sense to allow 1 free respec every 12 months and also give an optional respec to new players at around the 30 day mark. Around the 40,000 AUR mark seems to make sense.

It would do nothing for the game except cause even more "I want a respec", "When's the next respec", " Respec for Aurum" or "CCP you suck give me a respec" threads. Refunding SP will not keep players, add players or make them happy for more that a week or two. There are few cases where refunded SP would make the game better. We need to focus on making the game fun by adding content instead of wasting time typing junk on the forums. Use the search and find one of the 1,000 other threads with the exact same title and message.

1 - How much should an Aurum respec cost?
NONE. It will only reinforce the stigma that Dust is pay-to-win.

2 - How often should they be allowed to happen per character?
If we are ever forced into living with respecs, I would say no more than once a year. Eve Online's Neural Remap system (which is nothing like the respecs you know) is offered only once a year to Eve players.

3 - Should free respecs ever be allowed again?
Only when content has been added in such a way that results in A) most or all racial weapons/suits/vehicles are added and B) when the skill tree has been overhauled to the point where it's more practical to just simply give everyone an automatic FREE respec.

4 - Should a respec be "bankable?"
Hell no. Don't let it stack. If you fail to use the respec in the allotted time, you lose it.

5 - How might this affect the fiction or back story of the game (if we care)?
No impact on the back story at all. However, it will greatly impact the overall gameplay for the players.

I think there should never be paid respecs. That would finally make this game P2W like most other F2P games (Which most of them that are P2W fail pretty hard)

Best way for CCP to make money is selling cosmetic items. If they did that I will actually buy more AUR again.

I have played more games then you would imagine, where respec's weren't available and then magically became available... It ruined the balance in every single game.. made giant FOTM cookie cutter builds rampant from one build to the next... it ruined diversity in every single game.. Biggest example is World of Warcraft...

They completely changed all the skills around the tank tree. This is history in CCP even with EVE. They will reimburse any skill points invested into that area... specially when they do a ground up rework... It has happened for longer then most people on these forums have been playing PS3.

Everyone's including your argument is completely based of what YOU think is "fair" and its not even a balanced concept... and one we have already done and saw the outburst of FOTM cal logi's everywhere with TAR's....(After they got the respect and saw the imps all running cal logi with TAR's)

Respec's have killed the biggest title in gaming down to the smallest... and in a F2p game with a persistent skill system like DUST it breaks so many aspects of it.


And go troll credibility some where else... pathetic.

There needs to be a content threshold to be reached before a respecing system is introduced. Given the way that the game has changed and continues to change I am of the mind that once the skill tree is reworked, the suits themselves, and the other racial variants introduced there should be a final free respec. The game is still being balanced, tweaked, gutted, and frankenstiened back together again (see current vehicle redux and eventual rebalancing for a small example). This is still the beta - regardless of the press release that this is an official and full game - and the players know it. Hell, even CCP has talked about how much work the game needs ("eating their vegetables" i believe is how they phrased it).

There will be a balancing point, and least one where most can agree that the game is functioning well, offers versatility, and is a truly competitive product vs other popular shooters. When that point is reached there should be a respec. And when that is offered and we can invite our friends to play this game without the constant frustrations that the players and devs constantly deal with right now; then we can expect no more respecs because of reworking - until years later.

However, a system for respecing should be implemented to further appeal the the standard gamer customer base. It is a game that is in the EVE universe, but is not designed for the narrow niche of players that EVE serves. Different consumer = different tactics/offerings. This is how I see it progressing.

This is and always will be the worst possible idea to come out of these forums.

Just throwing that out there.

The WORST.

Seriously , you think its acceptable for some of us to buy our way out
of the mistakes we or CCP have made in the skill system .....

No way .....

There needs to be one full respec when all the racial gear comes out

that's it....

The reason for no respecs is a very very simple one: Why letting you respec if you can just skill everything anyways? You want to try out a new weapon? Very well. Go ahead, save up some SP and spec into it. You played as infantry all the time? No problem. Doesn't stop you from speccing into vehicles from now on. Nothing will stop you from speccing everything in the vehicle tree, even if you started speccing infantry stuff at first. This is because there is no single reason for allowing respecs. Respecs would only be an option if your SP were limited. But they aren't. All you want is a shortcut to use the best version of other stuff instantly. But that's not how it works.

Respec for AUR=p2w

The only way I would even consider this is if they put in that timer but made it 3 months instead of 1

No. Respec bought with aurum is bad idea.

Once players gain enough SP for core skills, and one proto suit and weapon, they could respec into whatever is the current FOTM suit / weapon combo. Games would devolve into two teams of nerds in the same suit, shooting the same weapon.

The long-term investment value of SP would evaporate the moment this feature is enabled.

I however, am against Respecs outside of massive and fundamental changes to skill/weapons/suits you specced.

If this gets implemented, all I have to say is GÇ£Pay 2 WinGÇ¥.....

no aurum respecs thanks.

Whats the point of boosters if you could just respec? whats the point of SP accumulation at all then?

Bullshit... Respec's don't help a new player in any way.

Educating a new player on DUST is by far 2 million times more effective.

This post hurts my brain

I really cant be bothered to get into a heated debate why Aurum respecs are pay to win. I've been having these GÇ£argumentsGÇ¥ for the past year or so and IGÇÖm getting tired of trying to get my point across; the OP just sees red and cant get it into their heads why its would be very bad for this game.

I'm just going to leave it to the rest of the posters here (6 pages of them) to tell you why.

I would support an aurum respec. Conditions would have to apply. Like an isk variant. I do not support pay to win.

If they are going to use the marketing angle they should do it well.

Weapon respec x amount of aurum or y amount of isk.

Rinse and repeat for dropsuits, vehicles, and skills.

One further condition would be no skill book refund or assets refund. Another would be a 50% increase in cost for successive refunds.

Back on-topic though, there will ALWAYS be a measure of FOTM play in DUST as long as there is even the slightest hint of imbalance anywhere in the game. As long as there is that sense of advantage, AUR respecs will always - A-L-W-A-Y-S - be pay to win. And pay to win is not what DUST should be, so no. Keep arguing that you see logic behind it. I see NOPE.

No. No respecs outside of skill/suit/vehicle overhauls. That's final.

NOPE this is just a money pool for nothing, if CCP would listen we would get a respec every 3 months. I WANT MY MONEY BACK!

I made a new character and lasted like 30 min. In the academy. You need much longer for a respec to even be needed.

An EVE stat respec is nothing like a skill respec, that's a hugely different thing.

I'd actually be in support of skill respecs for AUR. I'd put them more in the 60,000+ AUR range though (with a few month cooldown between uses) to discourage abuse. $20 a month is actually in the range you may see FOTM users abuse it regularly.

I think, to some degree, CCP has already fouled up the no-respecs bit, it already seems likely to me, that they'll never finally have a last respec, so they might as well cash in, because I want more maps.

So respec's help new players because they might waste 100k SP? or say even a million?
Older Vet''s in DUST are the main users of Boosters you say?
Insinuations that respec's don't alter a veterans ability to max out their gameplay?

Changing part of the game and adding things has been part of every major persistent title out there? and that's a bad thing for you?
CCP promised and then delivered later? and therefore what exactly?
Name one developing company who hasn't had delays in releases? even the wealthiest companies with the biggest developing teams? are they perfect? no way... but if they promised and are delivering or working on it then what? not fast enough? new content is new content.

We have done this respec dance three times now in DUST 514. Everytime there was massive vet to new player imbalance issues.. Massive FOTM cycles happened.
And the main reason people have asked for a respec on these forums is that they skilled into what was strong at the time and it got changed. Mostly because of the FOTM cycle we have gone from starting with the Caldari Logistics spam in Uprising launch and Respec.
At some point it isn't an argument about me? its about a massive game imbalance that has and will happen again.

When you have a game where each character varies slightly from the next, based on the choices and decisions made throughout their history in DUST 514... Why would you think getting rid of that is ok? or would make the game itself better.
Why would someone(A Vet) that has been part of this game for potentially longer have less mistakes then someone coming into DUST with all the changes being current?.
So much of this just doesn't make sense for any legitimate argument for Respecializations as a store bought item for DUST 514.

I am against respecs in a game that doesn't have a skill limit!

The exceptions are for skills that are fundamentally changed. Or as a one time only deal to allow people a refund for their skills in their dropsuits for those who have been using a non racially aligned suit to go into the suit they want. After this however, I don't think any respecs should be given for any reason other than a major change to skills.

I think CCP needs to make up it's mind after this release. They need to either say "This is the final respec. Period. Done." and stick with it. Or they need to release AUR respec tokens, an do it that way.

{said lots of good things}

1. It reinforces the negative stigma that pay-to-win carries. CCP said that Dust 514 is not going to be pay-to-win mainly because they want to avoid that stigma. Flashing pay-to-win in a video game is like flashing a copy of Playboy Magazine in the middle of an evangelical church. The reaction will definitely not be positive.

2. Welcome to New Eden. We have only three rules here. These rules have been around for 10 years. Get use to it.
1) Adapt or Die.
2) Don't use what you can't afford to lose.
3) Accept the permanent consequences of your choices.

3. CCP has already been generous enough to hand out partial SP refunds for overhauling vehicles in this current build as you have seen. They will likely be kind enough to hand out another set of partial SP refunds for overhauling the dropsuits and finally bringing in racial parity for weapons and suits.

4. To reinforce point #3, this allows you to finally spec into that one racial suit you have been waiting for after getting tired of wearing that suit from that dreaded race you always hated. Not every heavy suit in the game is a fan of the Amarr, BTW. That said, not every scout likes the Gallente or Minmatar. But we didn't have much a choice back then, did we? No. We scouts were only given two races (Gallente or Minmatar) while the heavies practically had no choice at all (Amarr only). So once the remaining suits come in, we are likely going to get only a limited SP refund for suits so we can finally pick the race we were waiting for. That's the only exception I can make for respecs.

5. Beyond overhauls and racial parity, I'm going to reinforce the third rule stated in point #2. General respecs on demand (whether free or paid) will undermine the point of the game in which your choices matter. In order for your choices to have meaning, you need to have permanent consequences. If you can just undo those consequences, than your choices had no meaning.

6. Respecs on demand will negatively affect CCP's income source (Boosters) since anyone with 10 million SP or more will simply swap to another specialty without further investment into cross training. Eve Online subscriptions can only cover Dust development for so long. By the way, Eve players wouldn't like it at all to see their subscription money being used to fund a pay-to-win game when they themselves don't like pay-to-win.

7. To reinforce point #6, this will also cheapen the value of skill points. Having any more than 10 million SP will just become pointless since 10 million is usually all it takes to max out one specialty.

yea, sure.

this is new eden you choices should have consequences. however the consequences should be the result of your actions, not role redifinement by CCP.

1 - How much should an Aurum respec cost?
- $100, whatever that works out to in AURUM.

2 - How often should they be allowed to happen per character?
- @ $100, as often as you want. (Might help CCP hire a few more Devs.)

3 - Should free respecs ever be allowed again?
- Only for Dropsuit Command, when all racial variant suits are added.

4 - Should a respec be "bankable?"
- Maybe?

5 - How might this affect the fiction or back story of the game (if we care)?
- Cybernetic reprogramming?

Again, instituting racial parity is the only excuse I would allow respecs and even then you should only get a respec of the items affected.

That's still up to debate. CCP is swapping a lot of bonuses around. For example, many players trained up logis to take advantage of the hacking bonus. But now that Minmatar scouts are getting that bonus instead and it looks like the logi bonus to equipment fitting won't affect the cloaking equipment in particular, many logibros out there would want a partial respec of that suit affected.

Again, only when racial parity is needed would I support a respec and even then I prefer that the respec be limited to items affected. Case in point, the suits and maybe the weapons. But that is up to CCP to decide.

Honestly, I think it's better that Dust should adopt a proper alternative to the "respec on demand" system you're suggesting. That, to me at least, is the skill book attribute system couple with the Neural Remaps that Eve Online has.

In Eve Online, all skill books have two of the five attributes:
Willpower
Perception
Memory
Intelligence
Charisma

Every player has these attributes, but depending on the kind of implants that they have, the number of points within these attributes will vary. If you have more points within Willpower and Perception, than any skill book that has these two attributes will be much easier to train into. But you end up taking longer to train up other skill books as their attributes will have less points in them. Every year or so, Eve players are given a chance to rearrange those attributes however they like.

This is nothing like a traditional respec, however, since no SP is being rearranged. Only attribute points and the amount of time invested into a skill book varies. But once you train up a skill to say level 3 that has high attribute points into it, that skill level is yours forever regardless if it loses attribute points in the next Neural Remap.

This can work well in Dust. The more attribute points for a skill book affected, the less SP needed to train it up. Once trained to any level, that level is yours regardless if that book loses attribute points later on.

No.

/closed