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Jadd Hatchen
Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
7
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Posted - 2013.11.04 17:55:00 -
[31] - Quote
R F Gyro wrote:I'd prefer not to see respecs at all as I think they devalue the investment we all make in our mercs, which in turn takes away one of the key differentiators of Dust.
That said, I understand why they may be appropriate when CCP make wholesale changes to the skills structure of the game.
I guess I could also support a (partial) respec system that preserves the investment somehow. For example, it might be possible to "untrain" levels of skills, which would return a portion (60% maybe?) of the SP spent, as an accelerator to SP earned. For example, if you spent 320K SP on level 5 of a skill, untraining it would double your SP earning rate until you'd earned back an extra 192K SP.
I can imagine an Aurum booster that reduces the proportion of the SP that is lost, and I can also imagine CCP dynamically changing the loss % for specific skills in specific situations: setting the loss to only 15% on vehicle skills after a vehicle rebalance, for example.
Well I would hope that after the next couple huge rebalances that they plan to do this year, they will be done *fingers crossed* with all the major rebalances like that and thus the need for "free respecs" will also be done.
Again, I believe that loosing % skillpoints for a respec is akin to loosing aurum for a respec in this world where you can purchase boosters that give you bonuses for skillpoints to begin with. (See above discussions for this reasoning.)
Myabe in this case we put an AUR value per skillpoint being unspent? Like 1 AUR for every 10 skillpoints being unspent. So that in your case of unspending just the level 5 of a skill that cost 320k skillpoints, that would be 32k AUR. Or the the numbers could be 1 AUR for 100 SP which results in 3.2k AUR for the above example.
But in such a system a limit would be needed to prevent abuse, so like a 1 million SP limit per month in this sort of system?
In either rate, any of these systems (other than the full respec) would be difficult to implement as I get the impression that they are doing the current bonus SP stuff almost manually. As in they run a script over a database of what occurred the previous day/week and then review it for obvious mistakes during downtimes to award bonuses that don't occur immediately.
So the realities of implimentation may strike down many of these awesome ideas that people are coming up with.
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Jadd Hatchen
Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
8
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Posted - 2013.11.04 22:56:00 -
[32] - Quote
Oswald Rehnquist wrote:
If you are doing that, I would it rather it cost no aur and be at a 60% reduction in total sp
So people are really ready to advocate for the loss of skill points when it comes to respecs a lot. But I'm pretty sure the same people wouldn't be a fan of loosing skill points if they lost x number of clones.
What I mean is in EVE Online if you do not pay enough ISK to keep your clone grade up to date to hold all your skill points, then if you loose your clone (ie die), then you loose a percentage of your skill points based on the difference of what your clone grade is able to hold and how many skill points you had when you died. These skill points are then deducted from your last skill that was trained to level 5 (or which ever skill was trained to the highest level you posses whther that be level 4, 3, or whatever).
So I wonder, would the same people advocating for loss of skill points during respecs also be in favor of a system where you loose skillpoints for dying a lot?
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ELITE INQUISITOR
Eternal Beings
7
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Posted - 2013.11.05 17:55:00 -
[33] - Quote
Money bought respecs are a benefit to online games both free and paid for. Look at Dcu online. If a person wants to pay to spec into something else they feel is a better suit for their playing style then let them. It's a brilliant idea.
If you accept your limitations you go beyond them
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N7 Operative Anthony
WarRavens League of Infamy
5
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Posted - 2013.11.05 18:20:00 -
[34] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:If this is a full respec, you should have to give up 25% of your lifetime SP.
Hell no
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Cosgar
ParagonX
7337
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Posted - 2013.11.05 18:27:00 -
[35] - Quote
N7 Operative Anthony wrote:Cosgar wrote:If this is a full respec, you should have to give up 25% of your lifetime SP. Hell no You have to give something up to get something. It's the way the world works. Or you could just use that infinite amount of lifetime SP you get to spec into another role while keeping the one you have. You don't need proto to play a new specialization on the first day.
I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
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Jadd Hatchen
Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
9
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Posted - 2013.11.06 21:45:00 -
[36] - Quote
ELITE INQUISITOR wrote:Money bought respecs are a benefit to online games both free and paid for. Look at Dcu online. If a person wants to pay to spec into something else they feel is a better suit for their playing style then let them. It's a brilliant idea.
I agree to an extent. However it has been brought up that this is akin to "pay to win" or at least very close to it. I could see an abuse for this if it was allowed to happen anytime someone wanted it to happen, but I also suggested that placing some kind of time-limit ot how often it would be possible to do so would prevent such an abuse.
So the question is, does paying for a respec become a pay to win strategy?
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low genius
The Sound Of Freedom Renegade Alliance
829
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Posted - 2013.11.06 21:47:00 -
[37] - Quote
I think it's a terrible idea to have a respec in any fashion. doesn't matter what you lose, or what you spend, it's still a bad idea.
it takes away the weight of your decisions, and it compounds small balance problems within the game.
no respecs. ever. |
Atiim
Living Like Larry Schwag
676
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Posted - 2013.11.06 21:47:00 -
[38] - Quote
You realize that this would make the game p2w right?
At least make an ISK respec (that doesn't cost something ridiculously high like 50m)
There there Mr. Scout and Ms. Heavy, don't cry
You'll still be useful in my eyes
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Jadd Hatchen
Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
9
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Posted - 2013.11.06 21:48:00 -
[39] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:N7 Operative Anthony wrote:Cosgar wrote:If this is a full respec, you should have to give up 25% of your lifetime SP. Hell no You have to give something up to get something. It's the way the world works. Or you could just use that infinite amount of lifetime SP you get to spec into another role while keeping the one you have. You don't need proto to play a new specialization on the first day.
I agree that you have to give up something to get something else. However the premise of the AUR for respec idea is that you are paying (giving up real life money) for the respec and thus giving up money in exchange for it already.
Additionaly, it's been pointed out that bonus SP can be purchased already via boosters, so askign for a SP reduction only equates to paying more AUR for the respec. So why not just pay more AUR from the get go instead? |
low genius
The Sound Of Freedom Renegade Alliance
830
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Posted - 2013.11.06 21:49:00 -
[40] - Quote
Jadd Hatchen wrote:Cosgar wrote:If this is a full respec, you should have to give up 25% of your lifetime SP. An interesting idea. I know in EVE Online, if you are killed while in a clone that is not fully up to date, then you can loose a percentage of your skill points. Since there is no clone upkeep mechanism in DUST514, maybe this would be a way to accomplish that style of skill point "sink." But if there is a 25% loss, do you also mean that there should be no AUR cost for the respec? So the idea would be that if a player doesn't want to pay AUR for a monthly respec, then they can instead pay 25% of their current skill point total to get one? Would this idea still be compatible with the respecs for AUR? Interesting ideas...
in eve you don't lose a percentage of you sp. you lose your biggest skill. even if it took you 2 months to get. it's gone, and gone forever. |
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low genius
The Sound Of Freedom Renegade Alliance
830
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Posted - 2013.11.06 21:50:00 -
[41] - Quote
howard sanchez wrote:Things I like about Respec for Aurum: gives players a choice, gives CCP income
Things I dont like about respec for Aurum: adds to the Pay to Win argument
Comment: if CCP allows players to sell Aurum for isk ( the way they do with Plex) this could help to reduce the P2W contention
you can already sell aurum for isk within eve. |
Jadd Hatchen
Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
9
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Posted - 2013.11.06 21:51:00 -
[42] - Quote
low genius wrote: in eve you don't lose a percentage of you sp. you lose your biggest skill. even if it took you 2 months to get. it's gone, and gone forever.
Ok, I could be wrong about the percentage thing, but it does loose you the "biggest skill" ie. the last skill trained to level 5 (or if you have no level 5 skills the last one trained to level 4, etc.). You loose those SP forever, however the skill can still be trained back, so I'm not certain where you are getting the "gone forever" part from.
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low genius
The Sound Of Freedom Renegade Alliance
830
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Posted - 2013.11.06 21:52:00 -
[43] - Quote
ELITE INQUISITOR wrote:Money bought respecs are a benefit to online games both free and paid for. Look at Dcu online. If a person wants to pay to spec into something else they feel is a better suit for their playing style then let them. It's a brilliant idea.
dcou is terrible, and broken. it went free to play about 2 weeks after we all bought a disk that we can't sell.
f dcou. |
low genius
The Sound Of Freedom Renegade Alliance
830
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Posted - 2013.11.06 21:53:00 -
[44] - Quote
Atiim wrote:You realize that this would make the game p2w right?
At least make an ISK respec (that doesn't cost something ridiculously high like 50m)
it would be far more than 50mil. |
low genius
The Sound Of Freedom Renegade Alliance
830
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Posted - 2013.11.06 21:56:00 -
[45] - Quote
Jadd Hatchen wrote:low genius wrote: in eve you don't lose a percentage of you sp. you lose your biggest skill. even if it took you 2 months to get. it's gone, and gone forever.
Ok, I could be wrong about the percentage thing, but it does loose you the "biggest skill" ie. the last skill trained to level 5 (or if you have no level 5 skills the last one trained to level 4, etc.). You loose those SP forever, however the skill can still be trained back, so I'm not certain where you are getting the "gone forever" part from.
because you're never getting those two months back.
it seems like you're trying to play both sides. you guys are more than welcome to train new skills.
moreover ccp is giving you nearly a million sp this week so they don't have to read a bunch of qq respec threads.
lastly, a respec would be game-breaking. the lore dictates, and if the lore isn't important to you you're more than welcome to go play some 'title' that will last for 2 months and be replaced by it's sequel.
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Atiim
Living Like Larry Schwag
677
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Posted - 2013.11.06 21:57:00 -
[46] - Quote
low genius wrote:I think it's a terrible idea to have a respec in any fashion. doesn't matter what you lose, or what you spend, it's still a bad idea. it takes away the weight of your decisions, and it compounds small balance problems within the game. no respecs. ever. Do you know how long it would take to complete all the skill books?
If you spend 2mil SP on something, just to have it changed a few weeks later, before everyone else, then no it should matter what you use.
What if I made everything you had useless? Nope don't be upset your SP and time doesn't matter at all
There there Mr. Scout and Ms. Heavy, don't cry
You'll still be useful in my eyes
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Atiim
Living Like Larry Schwag
678
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Posted - 2013.11.06 22:00:00 -
[47] - Quote
low genius wrote:Atiim wrote:You realize that this would make the game p2w right?
At least make an ISK respec (that doesn't cost something ridiculously high like 50m) it would be far more than 50mil. No. You do realize that only 100 people would be able afford that right? But.. Screw time and investment I should just throw cash at my PS3
There there Mr. Scout and Ms. Heavy, don't cry
You'll still be useful in my eyes
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Jadd Hatchen
Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
9
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Posted - 2013.11.06 22:01:00 -
[48] - Quote
Atiim wrote:You realize that this would make the game p2w right?
At least make an ISK respec (that doesn't cost something ridiculously high like 50m)
First off, using ISK to pay for a respec is a new idea for this discussion. As such I believe it deserves some discussion. The immediate problem I see with using ISK to pay for a respec is that it would have to be a very large sum (even more than the 50 million you propose). In EVE onine a 30 pliot's liscence extension (30 day of game time) is approximately 600 million isk on the current market. So I would think that would be a more appropriate starting point. This would need to be the starting point for a respec cost in ISK because in the future they will be merging the markets and such things would need to be equated somehow or else people would transfer ISK from EVE to toons in DUST to buy respecs all the time.
Now assuming that respecs (whether they cost AUR or ISK) should have a time-limit imposed upon them to prevent any kind of abuse, then I still don't quite see your claim of p2w.
Right now I can pay for bonus skill points using boosters. This is currently part of the accepted gameplay. Why? Because there is still a skill point cap per week that limits the amount of extra skill points anyone can purchase over time. Similarly, respecs would be limited by time.
So I'm still trying to see where this becomes p2w? I'm not saying that it is or is not, but just trying to understand where the notion that it is pay to win is coming from.
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Jadd Hatchen
Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
9
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Posted - 2013.11.06 22:07:00 -
[49] - Quote
Atiim wrote:[quote=low genius]No. You do realize that only 100 people would be able afford that right? But.. Screw time and investment I should just throw cash at my PS3
Um actually there are a lot of "rich" DUST players out there. I'm pretty sure that there are more than 1000 people that could afford 50 million ISK if it came down to that.
And I agree that time is an investment and not everyone can be perfectly right the first time they spend points on things in a game that is vastly more complicated than others like it currently.
So the question becomes, is it ok for those people that are willing to pay for a respec (whether in ISK or AUR) to be allowed to do so?
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Jadd Hatchen
Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
9
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Posted - 2013.11.06 22:13:00 -
[50] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Do you know how long it would take to complete all the skill books?
If you spend 2mil SP on something, just to have it changed a few weeks later, before everyone else, then no it should matter what you use.
What if I made everything you had useless? Nope don't be upset your SP and time doesn't matter at all
According to this article:
http://www.vg247.com/2012/08/15/dust-514-learning-all-skills-will-take-7-years-says-ccp/
It would take 7 years to do so currently. But by then they will have added new equipment, new weapons, new vehicles etc. so that it would be even more in the future.
At any rate, does paying for a respec = p2w? If it does, then what kinda limitations would be needed to prevent it?
As for nerfs hurting things in the game and creating new meta or FOTM's, the hope is that after CCP finally figures out how to properly balance a lot of the current mainstay items of the game, then this sort of need to respec due to a rebalance will go away. So in that future DUST universe, would you still want to allow people to be able to pay for a respec?
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Zahle Undt
Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising
407
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Posted - 2013.11.06 22:14:00 -
[51] - Quote
Real money for respecs = pay to be FOTM which is essentially pay 2 win which would be very bad for the game |
Jadd Hatchen
Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
9
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Posted - 2013.11.06 23:11:00 -
[52] - Quote
Zahle Undt wrote:Real money for respecs = pay to be FOTM which is essentially pay 2 win which would be very bad for the game
I can just as easily just pay for a booster and use those added skillpoints to skill into the FOTM. What's the difference?
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Zahle Undt
Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising
408
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Posted - 2013.11.06 23:20:00 -
[53] - Quote
Jadd Hatchen wrote:Zahle Undt wrote:Real money for respecs = pay to be FOTM which is essentially pay 2 win which would be very bad for the game I can just as easily just pay for a booster and use those added skill points to skill into the FOTM. What's the difference?
You actually have to play the game as well with the booster. Also if you max out weekly with 30 days active and passive boosters both you get little over 2.3 million SP which gets you proto in a new suit or maxes out 1 new weapon. An Aurum respec lets you completely rearrange what could be what about 27 - 30 million SP for some people right now? That's a big difference |
Jadd Hatchen
Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
10
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Posted - 2013.11.07 16:38:00 -
[54] - Quote
Zahle Undt wrote:Jadd Hatchen wrote:Zahle Undt wrote:Real money for respecs = pay to be FOTM which is essentially pay 2 win which would be very bad for the game I can just as easily just pay for a booster and use those added skill points to skill into the FOTM. What's the difference? You actually have to play the game as well with the booster. Also if you max out weekly with 30 days active and passive boosters both you get little over 2.3 million SP which gets you proto in a new suit or maxes out 1 new weapon. An Aurum respec lets you completely rearrange what could be what about 27 - 30 million SP for some people right now? That's a big difference
But the current theory would be to limit a full AUR respec to once every month. So by your calculations I can use boosters/play etc and do approx 2.3 million SP in one month. If we limit the AUR respecs to one every 2 months, then someone using boosters etc can acrue approx 4.6 million SP in that time.
What's the difference between someone playing for 2 months and spending money on boosters to gain 4.6 million SP and someone else using an AUR respec one time in that same 2 months? Because most of the people using that AUR respec are not likely to have over 5 million SP to begin wtih. |
Sky Kage
THE GOD'Z THEMSELVES
31
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Posted - 2013.11.07 18:14:00 -
[55] - Quote
A loss of 25% total SP seem like alot to me. I have hit 4m total sp recently and losing 1m of it just to get back that 1.4m that i put into the wrong place. i would lose 1m while only gaining 400k. sounds a bit over the top for me.
Happiness is as a butterfly. when pursed it's always just beyond your grasp. but should you relax, It may alight you
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Rynoceros
Rise Of Old Dudes
1229
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Posted - 2013.11.07 18:37:00 -
[56] - Quote
After the respec due for implementing basic content;
40,000 Aurum. (Less, and you demean the value. More, and you eliminate a potential source of income.) Available once every 720 hours. (Again, longer cool down, less profitability.) No SP reduction. (Removing bought SP is just bad business.)
Cheeseburgers.
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xSivartx
Valor Tactical Operations Immortal Coalition of New-Eden
9
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Posted - 2013.11.07 18:52:00 -
[57] - Quote
How about having it like EVE's attribute system? Where you can set them once a year but a respec? |
Jadd Hatchen
Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
11
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Posted - 2013.11.07 19:33:00 -
[58] - Quote
xSivartx wrote:How about having it like EVE's attribute system? Where you can set them once a year but a respec?
That is one idea. The problem is do we do just this? Do we do this "free respec" AND allow the respec for AUR once a month too? Would the annual free respec reduce the value of the paid for ones?
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Jadd Hatchen
Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
11
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Posted - 2013.11.07 20:15:00 -
[59] - Quote
Rynoceros wrote:After the respec due for implementing basic content;
40,000 Aurum. (Less, and you demean the value. More, and you eliminate a potential source of income.) Available once every 720 hours. (Again, longer cool down, less profitability.) No SP reduction. (Removing bought SP is just bad business.)
These are all very good inputs.
Anyone not like them? If so, then why?
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Jadd Hatchen
Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
12
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Posted - 2013.11.07 22:16:00 -
[60] - Quote
So upon further thought about this topic I've decided to change my opinion on item #4 from the original post. I have come to the conclusion that an annual (as in awarded one year after your toon's creation date and every year after that) free respec might be ok. the idea being that this is a constantly evolving game and as such it would help to maintain player's interests in being able to change or try out new roles as time goes on. I don't believe that one free respec will harm the AUR for respec idea too much as people will still want to fix mistakes, swap corporations and want to meet new standards, fullfill new roles, etc.
I would also like to reiterate that once a new player finishes the new player experience, they should get an optional free respec so that they can also fix any mistakes that they made while still learning how the game works.
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