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Nerfed Proto Swarm Launchers are WORSE than current Standard Swarm Launchers.

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Borne Velvalor Endless Hatred 825	Posted - 2013.10.27 22:49:00 - [1] - Quote Just so people understand the severity of the nerf, after 1.6 proto swarms will deal the same damage as current standard swarms, with a 55% range reduction. Hardened HAVs have around the same TTK as they do now, so the comparison should be accurate, even after vehicle changes. Find a Falchion and take out your standard swarms. This is how using top tier swarms will feel in the future, but with lower range. You're welcome.
Flix Keptick Red Star. EoN. 825	Posted - 2013.10.27 22:53:00 - [2] - Quote Well, I dont see why you would be trying to solo a falchion (SHIELD TANK) with swarms (EXPLOSIVE DAMAGE). Oh and in case you didnt notice the 30 page thread on vehicle changes, tanks are getting nerfed too. In other words, please dont Ps: we have the same amount of likes
Fizzer94 L.O.T.I.S. Public Disorder. 630	Posted - 2013.10.27 22:55:00 - [3] - Quote Borne Velvalor wrote: Just so people understand the severity of the nerf, after 1.6 proto swarms will deal the same damage as current standard swarms, with a 55% range reduction. Hardened HAVs have around the same TTK as they do now, so the comparison should be accurate, even after vehicle changes. Find a Falchion and take out your standard swarms. This is how using top tier swarms will feel in the future, but with lower range. You're welcome. Tanks get less health in the future. Also, as I have said before, if I can kill tanks with a Plasma Cannon, your easy mode swarms will do just fine.
Borne Velvalor Endless Hatred 825	Posted - 2013.10.27 22:56:00 - [4] - Quote Flix Keptick wrote: Well, I dont see why you would be trying to solo a falshion (SHIELD TANK) with swarms (EXPLOSIVE DAMAGE) I meant Vayu's, I always get them confused. Either way, it doesn't really matter. It can be a Madrugar, which actually makes more sense since Falchions/Vayus are gone in 1.6.
medomai grey WarRavens League of Infamy 290	Posted - 2013.10.27 22:58:00 - [5] - Quote mmm... The damage is per missile fired, which increases the higher up in tier you go. Don't understand the range nerf but then again it might not be that bad; have to wait and see. If it was over nerfed, CCP can always redo it at the cost of more wasted time and money. Also, no one knows what's in 1.6 yet.
Borne Velvalor Endless Hatred 826	Posted - 2013.10.27 22:59:00 - [6] - Quote Fizzer94 wrote: Borne Velvalor wrote: Just so people understand the severity of the nerf, after 1.6 proto swarms will deal the same damage as current standard swarms, with a 55% range reduction. Hardened HAVs have around the same TTK as they do now, so the comparison should be accurate, even after vehicle changes. Find a Falchion and take out your standard swarms. This is how using top tier swarms will feel in the future, but with lower range. You're welcome. Tanks get less health in the future. Also, as I have said before, if I can kill tanks with a Plasma Cannon, your easy mode swarms will do just fine. If you can sit next to a HAV hitting it with a Plasma Cannon for 15 seconds straight, I applaud you, kind sir. See, every time I see someone attack a HAV with a Swarm Launcher, it backs away and recalls. You must have fantastic aim and some crazy mods, or be blowing up Somas and Sicas, considering the Plasma Cannon deals less damage per shot with a longer delay and no lock on, plus bullet drop and a slow projectile.
Borne Velvalor Endless Hatred 826	Posted - 2013.10.27 23:00:00 - [7] - Quote medomai grey wrote: mmm... The damage is per missile fired, which increases the higher up in tier you go. Current STD Launcher: 330 * 4 = 1320 Nerfed PRO Launcher: 220 * 6 = 1320
Fizzer94 L.O.T.I.S. Public Disorder. 630	Posted - 2013.10.27 23:01:00 - [8] - Quote Borne Velvalor wrote: Fizzer94 wrote: Borne Velvalor wrote: Just so people understand the severity of the nerf, after 1.6 proto swarms will deal the same damage as current standard swarms, with a 55% range reduction. Hardened HAVs have around the same TTK as they do now, so the comparison should be accurate, even after vehicle changes. Find a Falchion and take out your standard swarms. This is how using top tier swarms will feel in the future, but with lower range. You're welcome. Tanks get less health in the future. Also, as I have said before, if I can kill tanks with a Plasma Cannon, your easy mode swarms will do just fine. If you can sit next to a HAV hitting it with a Plasma Cannon for 15 seconds straight, I applaud you, kind sir. See, every time I see someone attack a HAV with a Swarm Launcher, it backs away and recalls. You must have fantastic aim and some crazy mods, or be blowing up Somas and Sicas, considering the Plasma Cannon deals less damage per shot with a longer delay and no lock on, plus bullet drop and a slow projectile. So far I've killed 2 Gunnlogis, 1 Maddy, 1 Sica, and countless infantry. HAVs don't go down easy.
Borne Velvalor Endless Hatred 826	Posted - 2013.10.27 23:07:00 - [9] - Quote Fizzer94 wrote: Borne Velvalor wrote: Fizzer94 wrote: Borne Velvalor wrote: Just so people understand the severity of the nerf, after 1.6 proto swarms will deal the same damage as current standard swarms, with a 55% range reduction. Hardened HAVs have around the same TTK as they do now, so the comparison should be accurate, even after vehicle changes. Find a Falchion and take out your standard swarms. This is how using top tier swarms will feel in the future, but with lower range. You're welcome. Tanks get less health in the future. Also, as I have said before, if I can kill tanks with a Plasma Cannon, your easy mode swarms will do just fine. If you can sit next to a HAV hitting it with a Plasma Cannon for 15 seconds straight, I applaud you, kind sir. See, every time I see someone attack a HAV with a Swarm Launcher, it backs away and recalls. You must have fantastic aim and some crazy mods, or be blowing up Somas and Sicas, considering the Plasma Cannon deals less damage per shot with a longer delay and no lock on, plus bullet drop and a slow projectile. So far I've killed 2 Gunnlogis, 1 Maddy, 1 Sica, and countless infantry. HAVs don't go down easy. Good for you? I am honestly impressed if those were at full health and properly fitted. It takes what, 5 shots to down a Madrugar without hardeners? Plenty of time to flee and recall. 8000 eHP Madrugar + 40% resistance to armor is almost 11000 HP damage you need to deal with your PC. With a PRO PC, Prof 5 and 2 Complex Mods you'll need 8 direct hits over 16~ seconds, plus any damage that was healed. Yeah.
Pvt Numnutz Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 268	Posted - 2013.10.27 23:07:00 - [10] - Quote well the part that you are forgetting is that alot of vehicles are being taken out as a part of this re balancing. No more logistics and assault dropships just standard. You know how easy it is to take those down with proto tier AV... The new swarms are quite nice, they are going to make swarmers think alot more and rely on actual player skill. Judge Rhadamanthus put a video up explaining these changes with nice visuals so you can understand http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3au9H-NcgSw&feature=c4-overview&list=UUy11xToip47aIW0M9TSOKrQ

Fizzer94 L.O.T.I.S. Public Disorder. 631	Posted - 2013.10.27 23:12:00 - [11] - Quote Borne Velvalor wrote: Fizzer94 wrote: Borne Velvalor wrote: Fizzer94 wrote: Borne Velvalor wrote: Just so people understand the severity of the nerf, after 1.6 proto swarms will deal the same damage as current standard swarms, with a 55% range reduction. Hardened HAVs have around the same TTK as they do now, so the comparison should be accurate, even after vehicle changes. Find a Falchion and take out your standard swarms. This is how using top tier swarms will feel in the future, but with lower range. You're welcome. Tanks get less health in the future. Also, as I have said before, if I can kill tanks with a Plasma Cannon, your easy mode swarms will do just fine. If you can sit next to a HAV hitting it with a Plasma Cannon for 15 seconds straight, I applaud you, kind sir. See, every time I see someone attack a HAV with a Swarm Launcher, it backs away and recalls. You must have fantastic aim and some crazy mods, or be blowing up Somas and Sicas, considering the Plasma Cannon deals less damage per shot with a longer delay and no lock on, plus bullet drop and a slow projectile. So far I've killed 2 Gunnlogis, 1 Maddy, 1 Sica, and countless infantry. HAVs don't go down easy. Good for you? I am honestly impressed if those were at full health and properly fitted. It takes what, 5 shots to down a Madrugar without hardeners? Plenty of time to flee and recall. 8000 eHP Madrugar + 40% resistance to armor is almost 11000 HP damage you need to deal with your PC. With a PRO PC, Prof 5 and 2 Complex Mods you'll need 8 direct hits over 16~ seconds, plus any damage that was healed. Yeah. The Gunnlogis weren't too bad to be honest, but I had to shoot the Maddy in its gas tank 4 times to kill it. Was insanely hard, I only think I was able to pull it off because he had a rail gun.
Borne Velvalor Endless Hatred 828	Posted - 2013.10.27 23:19:00 - [12] - Quote Pvt Numnutz wrote: well the part that you are forgetting is that alot of vehicles are being taken out as a part of this re balancing. No more logistics and assault dropships just standard. You know how easy it is to take those down with proto tier AV... The new swarms are quite nice, they are going to make swarmers think alot more and rely on actual player skill. Judge Rhadamanthus put a video up explaining these changes with nice visuals so you can understand http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3au9H-NcgSw&feature=c4-overview&list=UUy11xToip47aIW0M9TSOKrQ True. I should've made this thread specifically about HAVs. As for the video, I did the math for Madrugar's when the new vehicle stats were announced. They are slightly frailer after hardeners with one set of plates, one hardener and one repair unit. I don't think they die fast enough to warrant a 33% damage reduction to Swarm Launchers, especially non-proto swarm launchers which already cannot usually kill any properly fitted HAV unless the pilot is incompetent. What will a Madrugar take? 10 standard swarms with hardeners up or 6 proto swarms with glass cannon mods? Proto swarms needed to be nerfed a bit, so maybe this will work out somewhat for them. But this just makes standard and advanced swarms even harder to use. Few players spec into AV, because AV can only kill vehicles and they need the SP for their normal gear. Pilots mostly have nothing to spend SP on but their diamond encrusted recallable bricks. HAVs with one or two guys inside are situationally either completely slaying whole teams or getting slain by proto AV. I don't think that making proto AV just "OK" and making everything below even worse crap will be solving any problems.
Pvt Numnutz Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 268	Posted - 2013.10.27 23:25:00 - [13] - Quote Borne Velvalor wrote: Pvt Numnutz wrote: well the part that you are forgetting is that alot of vehicles are being taken out as a part of this re balancing. No more logistics and assault dropships just standard. You know how easy it is to take those down with proto tier AV... The new swarms are quite nice, they are going to make swarmers think alot more and rely on actual player skill. Judge Rhadamanthus put a video up explaining these changes with nice visuals so you can understand http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3au9H-NcgSw&feature=c4-overview&list=UUy11xToip47aIW0M9TSOKrQ True. I should've made this thread specifically about HAVs. As for the video, I did the math for Madrugar's when the new vehicle stats were announced. They are slightly frailer after hardeners with one set of plates, one hardener and one repair unit. I don't think they die fast enough to warrant a 33% damage reduction to Swarm Launchers, especially non-proto swarm launchers which already cannot usually kill any properly fitted HAV unless the pilot is incompetent. What will a Madrugar take? 10 standard swarms with hardeners up or 6 proto swarms with glass cannon mods? Proto swarms needed to be nerfed a bit, so maybe this will work out somewhat for them. But this just makes standard and advanced swarms even harder to use. Few players spec into AV, because AV can only kill vehicles and they need the SP for their normal gear. Pilots mostly have nothing to spend SP on but their diamond encrusted recallable bricks. HAVs with one or two guys inside are situationally either completely slaying whole teams or getting slain by proto AV. I don't think that making proto AV just "OK" and making everything below even worse crap will be solving any problems. You can't really talk about just tanks in dust. When you talk vehicles you have to talk all vehicles because any balancing that you suggest is going to affect the other vehicles as well. Especially when there is talk of increasing swarm launcher damage. So if you want to only talk tanks then only talk about a tanks tank and not about swarm launcher damage as you will get dropship pilots and LAV drivers who will feel wronged. Thank you
Borne Velvalor Endless Hatred 829	Posted - 2013.10.27 23:32:00 - [14] - Quote Pvt Numnutz wrote: Borne Velvalor wrote: Pvt Numnutz wrote: well the part that you are forgetting is that alot of vehicles are being taken out as a part of this re balancing. No more logistics and assault dropships just standard. You know how easy it is to take those down with proto tier AV... The new swarms are quite nice, they are going to make swarmers think alot more and rely on actual player skill. Judge Rhadamanthus put a video up explaining these changes with nice visuals so you can understand http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3au9H-NcgSw&feature=c4-overview&list=UUy11xToip47aIW0M9TSOKrQ True. I should've made this thread specifically about HAVs. As for the video, I did the math for Madrugar's when the new vehicle stats were announced. They are slightly frailer after hardeners with one set of plates, one hardener and one repair unit. I don't think they die fast enough to warrant a 33% damage reduction to Swarm Launchers, especially non-proto swarm launchers which already cannot usually kill any properly fitted HAV unless the pilot is incompetent. What will a Madrugar take? 10 standard swarms with hardeners up or 6 proto swarms with glass cannon mods? Proto swarms needed to be nerfed a bit, so maybe this will work out somewhat for them. But this just makes standard and advanced swarms even harder to use. Few players spec into AV, because AV can only kill vehicles and they need the SP for their normal gear. Pilots mostly have nothing to spend SP on but their diamond encrusted recallable bricks. HAVs with one or two guys inside are situationally either completely slaying whole teams or getting slain by proto AV. I don't think that making proto AV just "OK" and making everything below even worse crap will be solving any problems. You can't really talk about just tanks in dust. When you talk vehicles you have to talk all vehicles because any balancing that you suggest is going to affect the other vehicles as well. Especially when there is talk of increasing swarm launcher damage. So if you want to only talk tanks then only talk about a tanks tank and not about swarm launcher damage as you will get dropship pilots and LAV drivers who will feel wronged. Thank you The problem lies with SL damage relative to HAVs and also HAV recalls, so maybe my topic is too broad. This is only because LLAVs and ADSs will be removed, though, which is stupid because it basically becomes impossible to balance SLs across all vehicle types now. Make them weak enough for a standard DS to take a few and it doesn't do enough to HAVs. Make them slightly weaker than they are now but still enough to destroy HAVs in a timely manner and DS pilots complain.
Nirwanda Vaughns Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 157	Posted - 2013.10.27 23:33:00 - [15] - Quote My understanding is tanks are being changed at a later date too but tbh with my current skills and setup (prof 2 3 x complex damage mods) it doesn't take much to take a current tank down so i think they will balance in time and we may see swarms re-balanced. with just the basic tanks we shouldn't have too much trouble if folk work together y'know like a team? onloy issue is with the target lock range. its gonn amake dropships a sod to kill. they already ab out the way and hit the ceiling out of range of the current 400m so 175m and they're gonan be able to run away more easily
Sgt Kirk SyNergy Gaming EoN. 2408	Posted - 2013.10.27 23:35:00 - [16] - Quote The thing was way too damn powerful as a light Infantry weapon as it is. It's going to do around the same damage that a Plasma cannon does to vehicles. Now you people will know my pain.
Pvt Numnutz Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 268	Posted - 2013.10.27 23:37:00 - [17] - Quote Borne Velvalor wrote: Few players spec into AV, because AV can only kill vehicles and they need the SP for their normal gear. Pilots mostly have nothing to spend SP on but their diamond encrusted recallable bricks. sigh.....yeah i had to spend an insane amount of SP just to make my vehicle usable, millions more than the advanced swarm/ forge that killed me in 2-3 hit. Let me tell you this, as a dropship pilot i had to invest into ground game to afford the isk cost to get into the ship that i spent all my sp into just to survive 1 or maybe 2 games. so after spending 5 games on the ground with a basic fit, i got one dropship. which was then shot down by a guy who makes 4-5 av suits a game. At least with AV you spec into suits and damage mods and nano's and other things that can also be applied to your ground game. The vehicle tree is completely separate, and with as good as current AV is i'm lucky if i break even on a good day. tanks are much the same, i use to tank in chrom but gave it up when i realized that i couldn't make isk in tanks unless i invested into them as heavily as i did dropships. so i gave it up and went ground to earn some isk. there is more to pilots than tankers buddy, please keep us in mind before saying swarms should have more damage
Michael Arck Anubis Prime Syndicate 1700	Posted - 2013.10.27 23:42:00 - [18] - Quote When people say "easy mode" anything, I want to run them over with a LAV. Borne Velvalor wrote: Pvt Numnutz wrote: well the part that you are forgetting is that alot of vehicles are being taken out as a part of this re balancing. No more logistics and assault dropships just standard. You know how easy it is to take those down with proto tier AV... The new swarms are quite nice, they are going to make swarmers think alot more and rely on actual player skill. Judge Rhadamanthus put a video up explaining these changes with nice visuals so you can understand http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3au9H-NcgSw&feature=c4-overview&list=UUy11xToip47aIW0M9TSOKrQ True. I should've made this thread specifically about HAVs. I don't think they die fast enough to warrant a 33% damage reduction to Swarm Launchers, especially non-proto swarm launchers which already cannot usually kill any properly fitted HAV unless the pilot is incompetent. What will a Madrugar take? 10 standard swarms with hardeners up or 6 proto swarms with glass cannon mods? Proto swarms needed to be nerfed a bit, so maybe this will work out somewhat for them. But this just makes standard and advanced swarms even harder to use. Few players spec into AV, because AV can only kill vehicles and they need the SP for their normal gear. Pilots mostly have nothing to spend SP on but their diamond encrusted recallable bricks. HAVs with one or two guys inside are situationally either completely slaying whole teams or getting slain by proto AV. I don't think that making proto AV just "OK" and making everything below even worse crap will be solving any problems. I agree with this post because that's been my experience since dealing with swarmys. The Madrugars are a pain in the neck. Swarmys folks got plenty to deal with when it comes to taking out a Madrugar. Normally a smart team has 4 to 5 guys surrounding the tank, looking for swarmy shooters. It's not an easy task for a swarmy user to take out a Madrugar, that's why I don't understand the nerf. But then again, I haven't been really using the swarms to make a fully educated opinion. This is just my experience I have had over a couple of weeks.
Borne Velvalor Endless Hatred 829	Posted - 2013.10.27 23:44:00 - [19] - Quote Pvt Numnutz wrote: Borne Velvalor wrote: Few players spec into AV, because AV can only kill vehicles and they need the SP for their normal gear. Pilots mostly have nothing to spend SP on but their diamond encrusted recallable bricks. sigh.....yeah i had to spend an insane amount of SP just to make my vehicle usable, millions more than the advanced swarm/ forge that killed me in 2-3 hit. Let me tell you this, as a dropship pilot i had to invest into ground game to afford the isk cost to get into the ship that i spent all my sp into just to survive 1 or maybe 2 games. so after spending 5 games on the ground with a basic fit, i got one dropship. which was then shot down by a guy who makes 4-5 av suits a game. At least with AV you spec into suits and damage mods and nano's and other things that can also be applied to your ground game. The vehicle tree is completely separate, and with as good as current AV is i'm lucky if i break even on a good day. tanks are much the same, i use to tank in chrom but gave it up when i realized that i couldn't make isk in tanks unless i invested into them as heavily as i did dropships. so i gave it up and went ground to earn some isk. there is more to pilots than tankers buddy, please keep us in mind before saying swarms should have more damage I never said they should have anything. I just pointed out that the damage is too low to take out HAVs before they disappear before walls. As to whether or not straight up buffing the DPS will balnce the situation or not, it won't. It's not balanced now, as its too strong at high tiers and too weak at lower tiers against HAVs. It's also too strong at all tiers against certain vehicles. As for ISK and SP investment, that's a whole separate ball game. Vehicles can be very effective, but they cost too much. Their effectiveness is actually TOO LOW with the amount they cost, which is why HAV users needs to recall every two minutes. At the same time, the guy getting slaughtered doesn't care at all how much you've invested. It's not like he can put 10 million ISK on the line and lase the whole planet's surface with missiles. Swarms have a 50% boost at higher levels that can easily be boosted to twice the damage of standard swarms with proto modules. Every other weapon gets 10%. Instead of normalizing the advancement curve and variations in eHP between vehicles, CCPs response is to straight up nerf the damage and range.
Tectonic Fusion The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 433	Posted - 2013.10.27 23:50:00 - [20] - Quote Ooh I can't wait to get back into my murder taxi again! gets blown up by forge gun NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

Rynoceros Rise Of Old Dudes 1104	Posted - 2013.10.27 23:51:00 - [21] - Quote CCP: Home of the Unnecessary Double Nerf. (Just one at a time, please. Pick one, run with it. See how it goes. Implement secondary and further nerfs as needed.)
Borne Velvalor Endless Hatred 829	Posted - 2013.10.27 23:52:00 - [22] - Quote Tectonic Fusion wrote: Ooh I can't wait to get back into my murder taxi again! gets blown up by forge gun NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!! CCP says it plans to look into "balancing" the Forge Gun as well. We'll see what happens with that.
Michael Arck Anubis Prime Syndicate 1702	Posted - 2013.10.28 00:09:00 - [23] - Quote I hated tanks before, I'm really going to start hating them now. Effing Madrugars, man. The range is essentially giving them a nice cushion. It's easier to pop me than it is for me to pop them.
Racro 01 Arifistan 501st Knights of Leanbox 60	Posted - 2013.10.28 00:15:00 - [24] - Quote Borne Velvalor wrote: Flix Keptick wrote: Well, I dont see why you would be trying to solo a falshion (SHIELD TANK) with swarms (EXPLOSIVE DAMAGE) I meant Vayu's, I always get them confused. Either way, it doesn't really matter. It can be a Madrugar, which actually makes more sense since Falchions/Vayus are gone in 1.6. just wait for when you have to deal with the once godly Surya adn Sagaris maruder class HAV's FUN ALL AROUND........... well if your the pilot of the Surya or Sagaris.
Monkey MAC killer taxi company General Tso's Alliance 876	Posted - 2013.10.28 00:16:00 - [25] - Quote All Im gonna say, as I have said on other threads of this nature. In my experience if you don't have at least 1 person rocking proto av you had better hope that tank is mlt, and ****ing dumb.
CharCharOdell Shining Flame Amarr Empire 1320	Posted - 2013.10.28 00:23:00 - [26] - Quote So stop trying to solo tanks and you'll be okay. Did you know that if you get your whole squad to equip mlt swarms, you can kill any tank possible in two volleys at the most?
CharCharOdell Shining Flame Amarr Empire 1320	Posted - 2013.10.28 00:25:00 - [27] - Quote Borne Velvalor wrote: Tectonic Fusion wrote: Ooh I can't wait to get back into my murder taxi again! gets blown up by forge gun NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!! CCP says it plans to look into "balancing" the Forge Gun as well. We'll see what happens with that. I don't think the forge gun is OP.maybe a 10% damage reduction but that is it. The swarm and av nades were OP but the forge actually required skill so I'll be mad if they nerf hammer it. Tanking with be boring without forge guns.
CharCharOdell Shining Flame Amarr Empire 1320	Posted - 2013.10.28 00:27:00 - [28] - Quote Borne Velvalor wrote: medomai grey wrote: mmm... The damage is per missile fired, which increases the higher up in tier you go. Current STD Launcher: 330 * 4 = 1320 Nerfed PRO Launcher: 220 * 6 = 1320 Good. Maybe tanks will be the preferred AV in PC now like they should be. Only tanks can solo tanks!!! I'm happy.maybe u try teamwork, now?
Michael Arck Anubis Prime Syndicate 1703	Posted - 2013.10.28 00:27:00 - [29] - Quote CharCharOdell wrote: So stop trying to solo tanks and you'll be okay. Did you know that if you get your whole squad to equip mlt swarms, you can kill any tank possible in two volleys at the most? LOL you said if...not "can"
CharCharOdell Shining Flame Amarr Empire 1320	Posted - 2013.10.28 00:28:00 - [30] - Quote Borne Velvalor wrote: Pvt Numnutz wrote: well the part that you are forgetting is that alot of vehicles are being taken out as a part of this re balancing. No more logistics and assault dropships just standard. You know how easy it is to take those down with proto tier AV... The new swarms are quite nice, they are going to make swarmers think alot more and rely on actual player skill. Judge Rhadamanthus put a video up explaining these changes with nice visuals so you can understand http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3au9H-NcgSw&feature=c4-overview&list=UUy11xToip47aIW0M9TSOKrQ True. I should've made this thread specifically about HAVs. As for the video, I did the math for Madrugar's when the new vehicle stats were announced. They are slightly frailer after hardeners with one set of plates, one hardener and one repair unit. I don't think they die fast enough to warrant a 33% damage reduction to Swarm Launchers, especially non-proto swarm launchers which already cannot usually kill any properly fitted HAV unless the pilot is incompetent. What will a Madrugar take? 10 standard swarms with hardeners up or 6 proto swarms with glass cannon mods? Proto swarms needed to be nerfed a bit, so maybe this will work out somewhat for them. But this just makes standard and advanced swarms even harder to use. Few players spec into AV, because AV can only kill vehicles and they need the SP for their normal gear. Pilots mostly have nothing to spend SP on but their diamond encrusted recallable bricks. HAVs with one or two guys inside are situationally either completely slaying whole teams or getting slain by proto AV. I don't think that making proto AV just "OK" and making everything below even worse crap will be solving any problems. Don't like red tanks? Make friends with blue tanks.

hgghyujh expert intervention Caldari State 137	Posted - 2013.10.28 01:05:00 - [31] - Quote the problem with balancing AV is that no one wants to use it, so typically tanks seem unbeatable, but as any tanker will tell you a few pro av players will wipe them off the map. This imbalance is because there is no good reason in this game to run AV. killing tanks should give out greater rewards and rewards based on damage dealt(minus damage dealt that was repaired). This would cause tanks to be attacked more consistently across the board and would allow for better balancing of AV and vehicles. also swarm should not be out runnable but should be easy to dodge for DSs and lavs, and a smart tanker. This would be a far more balanced range nerf then a direct range nerf, although you would have to fix invisible swarm.
Fizzer94 L.O.T.I.S. Public Disorder. 638	Posted - 2013.10.28 01:08:00 - [32] - Quote CharCharOdell wrote: Borne Velvalor wrote: Tectonic Fusion wrote: Ooh I can't wait to get back into my murder taxi again! gets blown up by forge gun NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!! CCP says it plans to look into "balancing" the Forge Gun as well. We'll see what happens with that. I don't think the forge gun is OP.maybe a 10% damage reduction but that is it. The swarm and av nades were OP but the forge actually required skill so I'll be mad if they nerf hammer it. Tanking with be boring without forge guns. My only problem with the forge gun is that the Plasma Cannon doesn't do more damage than it does.
Justin Tymes Dem Durrty Boyz Public Disorder. 456	Posted - 2013.10.28 01:11:00 - [33] - Quote CharCharOdell wrote: So stop trying to solo tanks and you'll be okay. Did you know that if you get your whole squad to equip mlt swarms, you can kill any tank possible in two volleys at the most? 1 man in a tank that can kill both vehicles and infantry vs 6 men with AV that is useless against anything but Vehicles. Seems legit.
Rogatien Merc Red Star. EoN. 1548	Posted - 2013.10.28 01:14:00 - [34] - Quote Eye DEE-Mmmaaaaaaaaaaaaaand a RESPEC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! heh
DeadlyAztec11 Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 2304	Posted - 2013.10.28 01:18:00 - [35] - Quote Justin Tymes wrote: CharCharOdell wrote: So stop trying to solo tanks and you'll be okay. Did you know that if you get your whole squad to equip mlt swarms, you can kill any tank possible in two volleys at the most? 1 man in a tank that can kill both vehicles and infantry vs 6 men with AV that is useless against anything but Vehicles. Seems legit. Stop trying to use logic against tankers. Just don't.
Borne Velvalor Endless Hatred 843	Posted - 2013.10.28 11:11:00 - [36] - Quote CharCharOdell wrote: Borne Velvalor wrote: medomai grey wrote: mmm... The damage is per missile fired, which increases the higher up in tier you go. Current STD Launcher: 330 * 4 = 1320 Nerfed PRO Launcher: 220 * 6 = 1320 Good. Maybe tanks will be the preferred AV in PC now like they should be. Only tanks can solo tanks!!! I'm happy.maybe u try teamwork, now? So, Rock trumps Paper and Scissors, tieing with itself. Stellar game balance.
Jack McReady DUST University Ivy League 779	Posted - 2013.10.28 11:21:00 - [37] - Quote Fizzer94 wrote: Borne Velvalor wrote: Just so people understand the severity of the nerf, after 1.6 proto swarms will deal the same damage as current standard swarms, with a 55% range reduction. Hardened HAVs have around the same TTK as they do now, so the comparison should be accurate, even after vehicle changes. Find a Falchion and take out your standard swarms. This is how using top tier swarms will feel in the future, but with lower range. You're welcome. Tanks get less health in the future. Also, as I have said before, if I can kill tanks with a Plasma Cannon, your easy mode swarms will do just fine. you are wrong, do the math of the announcements. the ehp will actually be higher than now. CharCharOdell wrote: Good. Maybe tanks will be the preferred AV in PC now like they should be. Only tanks can solo tanks!!! I'm happy.maybe u try teamwork, now? how about you learn to use teamwork instead of trying to solo squads with a tank? if the values of tank and AV announcements go live you can fully except another tank nerf 1 month later.
Beld Errmon The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 1064	Posted - 2013.10.28 11:43:00 - [38] - Quote oh look another moronic scrub crying about the AV changes before seeing how the dice land, they've shown us stats, they haven't and probably won't tell us about many other little tweaks they'll implement, they may randomly screw with the aiming speed of turrets (again) and make tanks generally useless vs infantry. Hell if your lucky they might even make swarmlaunchers even more easy mode and make them follow tanks around 2 or 3 corners, at the end of the day saying anything other than "you lot are a bunch of scrubs" is the only useful thing i can add because anyone that has played this game long enough knows there is an entrenched group of CODfanbois that won't be happy till any vehicle that can kill them is removed from the game.
pegasis prime BIG BAD W0LVES 1221	Posted - 2013.10.28 12:06:00 - [39] - Quote Flix Keptick wrote: Well, I dont see why you would be trying to solo a falchion (SHIELD TANK) with swarms (EXPLOSIVE DAMAGE). Oh and in case you didnt notice the 30 page thread on vehicle changes, tanks are getting nerfed too. In other words, please dont Ps: we have the same amount of likes edit: we had have you even looked at the stats for the vehicle change ??? or just looked at one part of the picture , you will rarely ever see a shield gunlogi with excess of 3000 shields when the changes come into play as we will only have 3 high slots to play with and quite low hp gunlogis will have to use our highs for 1 booster 2 hardener combos or 2 booster 1 hardener combos , yes swarms are getting a nerf but until they release the full set of stats for all the weapon changes all you are doing is crying and bsing
Commander Tzu L.O.T.I.S. Public Disorder. 25	Posted - 2013.10.28 12:07:00 - [40] - Quote Ohhhhh, your tears are delicious. Has anyone bothered to read the post CCP made? They clearly mention that in this new build tanks are supposed to be god mode for the 15-20 seconds all their modules are on, then they are really weak. As far as the range reduction, HTFU, you guys have been invisible for what seems like ever and CCP can't fix the render issue so I guess they decided to force everyone to close quarters to compensate. Oh, by the way, I was the one on the forums trying to get more people (including the QQ'vers) to push CCP to work on the renders instead of going through and changing the way everything works for exactly this reason. Besides, AV is getting nerfed for the first time since...........well I guess since DUST was launched and there have been quite a few changes to tanks that could be considered nerfs, just gotta wait and see how they all fit in the new ss P.S. Maybe this is good, I have heard from quite a few vehicle users that don't really like the changes and is this QQ post is any indication then the AV people aren't happy either. That is usually the result of a good compromise. P.P.S. When you are crying about AV and you want to look somewhat intelligent, don't say things like "Just wait until you try the new swarms against a Falchion or Vayu!!!111!!11!!!!eleven!!." Especially not when they have already said they are taking them out of the game in 1.7, along with LLAV's, LDS's, and every other hull that isn't the standard one.

Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 33	Posted - 2013.10.28 12:21:00 - [41] - Quote My opinion on Swarm Launchers, they should either be: - Long range and low damage: this would allow them to apply constant nagging pressure to vehicles but it difficult to remove them in a very short period of time. This means that whilst you're doing less damage each volley, you can more likely get the volley in the first place. - Short range and high damage: this makes getting your shots of more difficult but rewards you for doing so. This allows DS pilots to escape more easily than ground vehicles (since they can hit their AB and away) but makes the Swarms do substantial alpha-damage. I think having variant Swarm Launchers do one or the other could be a good solution by allowing players to actively choose whether they want to annoy and distract while putting sustained damage on a target or if they want to risk themselves and try to completely destroy their target in short order. That's my thoughts as a DS pilot anyway.
Borne Velvalor Endless Hatred 846	Posted - 2013.10.28 13:00:00 - [42] - Quote pegasis prime wrote: Borne Velvalor wrote: Just so people understand the severity of the nerf, after 1.6 proto swarms will deal the same damage as current standard swarms, with a 55% range reduction. Hardened HAVs have around the same TTK as they do now, so the comparison should be accurate, even after vehicle changes. Find a Falchion and take out your standard swarms. This is how using top tier swarms will feel in the future, but with lower range. You're welcome. have you even looked at the stats for the vehicle change ??? or just looked at one part of the picture , you will rarely ever see a shield gunlogi with excess of 3000 shields when the changes come into play as we will only have 3 high slots to play with and quite low hp gunlogis will have to use our highs for 1 booster 2 hardener combos or 2 booster 1 hardener combos , yes swarms are getting a nerf but until they release the full set of stats for all the weapon changes all you are doing is crying and bsing I meant Vayu for the OP. I correct this a third of a page down. Madrugar is the only accurate baseline, though, so I apologize. Commander Tzu wrote: Ohhhhh, your tears are delicious. Has anyone bothered to read the post CCP made? They clearly mention that in this new build tanks are supposed to be god mode for the 15-20 seconds all their modules are on, then they are really weak. As far as the range reduction, HTFU, you guys have been invisible for what seems like ever and CCP can't fix the render issue so I guess they decided to force everyone to close quarters to compensate. Oh, by the way, I was the one on the forums trying to get more people (including the QQ'vers) to push CCP to work on the renders instead of going through and changing the way everything works for exactly this reason. Besides, AV is getting nerfed for the first time since...........well I guess since DUST was launched and there have been quite a few changes to tanks that could be considered nerfs, just gotta wait and see how they all fit in the new ss P.S. Maybe this is good, I have heard from quite a few vehicle users that don't really like the changes and is this QQ post is any indication then the AV people aren't happy either. That is usually the result of a good compromise. P.P.S. When you are crying about AV and you want to look somewhat intelligent, don't say things like "Just wait until you try the new swarms against a Falchion or Vayu!!!111!!11!!!!eleven!!." Especially not when they have already said they are taking them out of the game in 1.7, along with LLAV's, LDS's, and every other hull that isn't the standard one. I read the post CCP made. I read both the weapon and vehicle changes. When the vehicle stat changes were announced I wrote multiple essay length posts. Much of the math on how Madrugars would be pretty much the same as they are now with hardeners up was cut out due to the character limit. Oh boy. A cyclical life and power span so that HAV users will have even more reason to boost around a corner and magically disappear into the air. What fun for both pilot and swarm user! It's okay that Swarm Launcher range has been reduced, because CCP can't fix draw distance? Not a valid reason. The player doesn't care because of what technical incompetence or insufficiency the change is made. The range nerf doesn't seem too bad, except in combination with the damage nerf, though. P.S. I said try the swarms against the current Falchion. I meant Vayu. If HAVs with hardeners do last longer (some others have claimed that after stacking, they live LONGER than current HAVs), then a Vayu -> Madrugar comparison could be more accurate. It slipped my mind at the time that they were being removed, but the Madrugar stays. I know, I know. The whole concept of the OP is negated by using the word "Falchion/Vayu" instead of "Gunnlogi/Madrugar." Beld Errmon wrote: oh look another moronic scrub crying about the AV changes before seeing how the dice land, they've shown us stats, they haven't and probably won't tell us about many other little tweaks they'll implement, they may randomly screw with the aiming speed of turrets (again) and make tanks generally useless vs infantry. Hell if your lucky they might even make swarmlaunchers even more easy mode and make them follow tanks around 2 or 3 corners, at the end of the day saying anything other than "you lot are a bunch of scrubs" is the only useful thing i can add because anyone that has played this game long enough knows there is an entrenched group of CODfanbois that won't be happy till any vehicle that can kill them is removed from the game. You're right. CCP should just post all the stats of the HAVs and Swarm Launcher changes and no one should say anything negative about them. We should all just wait until they are in front of our faces months from now, without any prior speculation. My point is simply that PRO launchers will be doing STD damage. That's a fact, unless they make them fire a different amount of missiles, which was not stated. From what I've seen of vehicles, the nerf will prevent PRO Swarms from tearing every HAV a new hole while simultaneously making anything below utter garbage. This may all be wrong, of course. I'll feel free to QQ all I want. There's no need for you to participate by QQing about QQers because you don't like me stating facts and speculating what I think that the effects of said facts might be.
Harpyja Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 641	Posted - 2013.10.28 13:02:00 - [43] - Quote Borne Velvalor wrote: Just so people understand the severity of the nerf, after 1.6 proto swarms will deal the same damage as current standard swarms, with a 55% range reduction. Hardened HAVs have around the same TTK as they do now, so the comparison should be accurate, even after vehicle changes. Find a Falchion and take out your standard swarms. This is how using top tier swarms will feel in the future, but with lower range. You're welcome. Oh, you won't be able to solo tanks anymore? Cry some more, and here's a cookie.
gbghg L.O.T.I.S. Public Disorder. 3838	Posted - 2013.10.28 13:10:00 - [44] - Quote I have two things to say. 1) have all you swarmers forgotten that your RoF was effectively doubled a couple of months ago? swarms already had an advantage and that only got increased, so don't act like your hard done by please its just insulting. 2) if by the logic you guys are going with that a Light AV weapon should be able to solo tanks, then by logical conclusion a Heavy AV weapon should be so OP that it can OHK every vehicle on the map. The AV weapon dynamic should be that Heavy AV should be the only ones with a chance of solo'ing a tank (a Heavy vehicle) while light AV should be capable of solo'ing light vehicles and killing a tank with 2-3 other Light AV weapons.
Borne Velvalor Endless Hatred 848	Posted - 2013.10.28 13:14:00 - [45] - Quote Harpyja wrote: Borne Velvalor wrote: Just so people understand the severity of the nerf, after 1.6 proto swarms will deal the same damage as current standard swarms, with a 55% range reduction. Hardened HAVs have around the same TTK as they do now, so the comparison should be accurate, even after vehicle changes. Find a Falchion and take out your standard swarms. This is how using top tier swarms will feel in the future, but with lower range. You're welcome. Oh, you won't be able to solo tanks anymore? Cry some more, and here's a cookie. Proto AV can indeed solo tanks and needed nerfing. Standard swarms, and even sometimes advanaced swarms, have always needed multiple people, at which point the tank just boosts behind a wall and disappears. Also, the nerf to range affects HAVs, LAVs and DSs differently. Same with the damage, since different vehicles have been removed (LLAVs, ADSs). I suppose it's more complicated than what the OP leads one to believe, but I think this will create as many problems as it solves.
pegasis prime BIG BAD W0LVES 1221	Posted - 2013.10.28 13:22:00 - [46] - Quote born when you say pro launchers do std damage std havs are getting mlt grade hp
Delta 749 Kestrel Reconnaissance 2259	Posted - 2013.10.28 13:22:00 - [47] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: My opinion on Swarm Launchers, they should either be: - Long range and low damage: this would allow them to apply constant nagging pressure to vehicles but it difficult to remove them in a very short period of time. This means that whilst you're doing less damage each volley, you can more likely get the volley in the first place. - Short range and high damage: this makes getting your shots of more difficult but rewards you for doing so. This allows DS pilots to escape more easily than ground vehicles (since they can hit their AB and away) but makes the Swarms do substantial alpha-damage. I think having variant Swarm Launchers do one or the other could be a good solution by allowing players to actively choose whether they want to annoy and distract while putting sustained damage on a target or if they want to risk themselves and try to completely destroy their target in short order. That's my thoughts as a DS pilot anyway. First reasonable thing Ive seen a vehicle pilot say on the matter, for the most part its the same HAV circle jerk crew that spent the past six months crying now going down on each other in joy Anyway I full agree with setting up two variants of the thing that work in the ways you outline
Delta 749 Kestrel Reconnaissance 2259	Posted - 2013.10.28 13:28:00 - [48] - Quote pegasis prime wrote: born when you say pro launchers do std damage std havs are getting mlt grade hp And these new tanks can still eat a full clip from the new proto swarms, thats an unfit militia grade tank as well After the first impact that wont even do enough to drop the shields on a maddy you have a full second and then some to switch on a module to make the follow up shots laughable Even the "herp derp I r teh tank guy and blowz up teh other tanks" people should realize even if you do go tank hunting the same thing applies due to the delay between rail shots giving ample time to switch on modules and cruise to safety Hell the worst case scenario would be getting caught point blank but having enough time to activate modules and then hop out and recall saving the tank even though on foot youll likely die
Borne Velvalor Endless Hatred 848	Posted - 2013.10.28 13:29:00 - [49] - Quote pegasis prime wrote: born when you say pro launchers do std damage std havs are getting mlt grade hp HAVs are getting a big buff to hardeners. I did the math when the stats were released, and a hardened Madrugar should live about as long as the one we have now with the standard hardener(s) + repair unit + plates with nitrous/heat sink/scanner. Double hardeners might make them ridiculously hard to kill, I can't remember much about the total health after resistance for that, though. Shield HAVs get a 60% reduction in damage when their hardeners go up, after the changes. Armor HAVs get a 40% reduction. They might be frail enough when not hardened to kill before they can get away but a good HAV has a ring of infantry around it. Meanwhile, you've got a swarm launcher that kills squat. So, good luck following those HAVs that decide to boost around a corner and recall, or cooldown and repair.
Keri Starlight Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 937	Posted - 2013.10.28 13:34:00 - [50] - Quote Not only tanks HP are going down too, but they won't have passive resistance anymore! I can't wait for the vehicle respec to get rid of my Gunnlogi, it's the dumbest thing I've ever specced into. Including Scout suits. I might go for a Maddy or just stay out of tanks this time. Haven't decided yet.

Borne Velvalor Endless Hatred 848	Posted - 2013.10.28 13:40:00 - [51] - Quote Keri Starlight wrote: Not only tanks HP are going down too, but they won't have passive resistance anymore! I can't wait for the vehicle respec to get rid of my Gunnlogi, it's the dumbest thing I've ever specced into. Including Scout suits. I might go for a Maddy or just stay out of tanks this time. Haven't decided yet. Passive resistance was never as good as just cycling two hardeners, anyways. The passive resistance skills were useful, though. The hardeners have been buffed, so the total health after resistance isn't bad. Swarms have been made STD, a tier below STD and two tiers below STD now, so you can take many swarms. Forge Guns are being "looked into." Whatever that means. Maybe CCP will make Forge Guns one shot vehicles like they one shot infantry and we can switch to screaming about that. Might be fun.
Commander Tzu L.O.T.I.S. Public Disorder. 27	Posted - 2013.10.30 02:10:00 - [52] - Quote Borne Velvalor wrote: pegasis prime wrote: Borne Velvalor wrote: Just so people understand the severity of the nerf, after 1.6 proto swarms will deal the same damage as current standard swarms, with a 55% range reduction. Hardened HAVs have around the same TTK as they do now, so the comparison should be accurate, even after vehicle changes. Find a Falchion and take out your standard swarms. This is how using top tier swarms will feel in the future, but with lower range. You're welcome. have you even looked at the stats for the vehicle change ??? or just looked at one part of the picture , you will rarely ever see a shield gunlogi with excess of 3000 shields when the changes come into play as we will only have 3 high slots to play with and quite low hp gunlogis will have to use our highs for 1 booster 2 hardener combos or 2 booster 1 hardener combos , yes swarms are getting a nerf but until they release the full set of stats for all the weapon changes all you are doing is crying and bsing I meant Vayu for the OP. I correct this a third of a page down. Madrugar is the only accurate baseline, though, so I apologize. Commander Tzu wrote: Ohhhhh, your tears are delicious. Has anyone bothered to read the post CCP made? They clearly mention that in this new build tanks are supposed to be god mode for the 15-20 seconds all their modules are on, then they are really weak. As far as the range reduction, HTFU, you guys have been invisible for what seems like ever and CCP can't fix the render issue so I guess they decided to force everyone to close quarters to compensate. Oh, by the way, I was the one on the forums trying to get more people (including the QQ'vers) to push CCP to work on the renders instead of going through and changing the way everything works for exactly this reason. Besides, AV is getting nerfed for the first time since...........well I guess since DUST was launched and there have been quite a few changes to tanks that could be considered nerfs, just gotta wait and see how they all fit in the new ss P.S. Maybe this is good, I have heard from quite a few vehicle users that don't really like the changes and is this QQ post is any indication then the AV people aren't happy either. That is usually the result of a good compromise. P.P.S. When you are crying about AV and you want to look somewhat intelligent, don't say things like "Just wait until you try the new swarms against a Falchion or Vayu!!!111!!11!!!!eleven!!." Especially not when they have already said they are taking them out of the game in 1.7, along with LLAV's, LDS's, and every other hull that isn't the standard one. I read the post CCP made. I read both the weapon and vehicle changes. When the vehicle stat changes were announced I wrote multiple essay length posts. Much of the math on how Madrugars would be pretty much the same as they are now with hardeners up was cut out due to the character limit. Oh boy. A cyclical life and power span so that HAV users will have even more reason to boost around a corner and magically disappear into the air. What fun for both pilot and swarm user! It's okay that Swarm Launcher range has been reduced, because CCP can't fix draw distance? Not a valid reason. The player doesn't care because of what technical incompetence or insufficiency the change is made. The range nerf doesn't seem too bad, except in combination with the damage nerf, though. P.S. I said try the swarms against the current Falchion. I meant Vayu. If HAVs with hardeners do last longer (some others have claimed that after stacking, they live LONGER than current HAVs), then a Vayu -> Madrugar comparison could be more accurate. It slipped my mind at the time that they were being removed, but the Madrugar stays. I know, I know. The whole concept of the OP is negated by using the word "Falchion/Vayu" instead of "Gunnlogi/Madrugar." Madrugars pretty much the same in 1.7 as they are now; maths please? Swarm launcher range being reduced because of a technical issue is actually a pretty valid reason, but I never said it was a good one. As for the player's cares, it really doesn't matter, all games have changes made to them based on technical issues or limitations, unless I totally missed the patch that added 64+ player battles. Though Enforcers have slightly less base HP than regular hulls, they can actually fit to be a little tougher than regular hulls, so I would say it does make a difference, not even taking into account the fact that it implies they spent no time reading the vehicle changes and thus have no idea what they are talking about (Btdubs, they don't).
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1148	Posted - 2013.10.30 02:19:00 - [53] - Quote Borne Velvalor wrote: Just so people understand the severity of the nerf, after 1.6 proto swarms will deal the same damage as current standard swarms, with a 55% range reduction. Hardened HAVs have around the same TTK as they do now, so the comparison should be accurate, even after vehicle changes. Find a Falchion and take out your standard swarms. This is how using top tier swarms will feel in the future, but with lower range. You're welcome. Swarms are being nerfed commensurate to how tanks are being nerfed. Stop acting like it's the end of the world.
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1148	Posted - 2013.10.30 02:20:00 - [54] - Quote Borne Velvalor wrote: Just so people understand the severity of the nerf, after 1.6 proto swarms will deal the same damage as current standard swarms, with a 55% range reduction. Hardened HAVs have around the same TTK as they do now, so the comparison should be accurate, even after vehicle changes. Find a Falchion and take out your standard swarms. This is how using top tier swarms will feel in the future, but with lower range. You're welcome. Oh, and secondly, that's being done when the vehicle changes are deployed, not before.
Xocoyol Zaraoul Superior Genetics 1299	Posted - 2013.10.30 02:20:00 - [55] - Quote Borne Velvalor wrote: Just so people understand the severity of the nerf, after 1.6 proto swarms will deal the same damage as current standard swarms, with a 55% range reduction. Hardened HAVs have around the same TTK as they do now, so the comparison should be accurate, even after vehicle changes. Find a Falchion and take out your standard swarms. This is how using top tier swarms will feel in the future, but with lower range. You're welcome. The new HAVs also become gigantic balls of piniata WP treats the instant their active modules expire which have a low duration and so few slots no one will double-stack them... You are not going to be shooting the new swarms and old targets, you are going to be shooting the new swarms at new targets, and there won't be any such thing as a Logi LAV/Derpship either... Reading the forums detracts from overall enjoyment of the game
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1148	Posted - 2013.10.30 02:22:00 - [56] - Quote Borne Velvalor wrote: medomai grey wrote: mmm... The damage is per missile fired, which increases the higher up in tier you go. Current STD Launcher: 330 * 4 = 1320 Nerfed PRO Launcher: 220 * 6 = 1320 Now do the math for proficiency 5 and 3 damage mods.
Toby Flenderson research lab 100	Posted - 2013.10.30 02:48:00 - [57] - Quote I just got proto swarms last week and have proficiency lvl 2. With 2 complex damage mods I think only 1 or 2 tanks in the past 20 have been able to take a full clip. I'm having my fun now while I can but I definitely see where tankers are frustrated. It's just too easy for me to take them down by myself, I'm not even afraid of them anymore. I'm ok with a swarm nerf even though I hate seeing tanks as much as I do. One thing I would hope to see would be EITHER a damage nerf OR a range nerf but not both. Dropships will basically become immune to SLs and tanks would just have to back up a little bit to avoid danger with a range nerf so if anything I'd prefer the damage nerf. Just putting my thoughts out there.
THUNDERGROOVE ZionTCD Public Disorder. 1200	Posted - 2013.10.30 03:01:00 - [58] - Quote Price: Falchion - 1,277,000 Wiyrkomi swarm launcher - 28,845 1277000 / 28845 = 44.2 Come at me 44 times and maybe you'll blow me up What is a signature?
CharCharOdell 1392	Posted - 2013.10.30 03:01:00 - [59] - Quote Borne Velvalor wrote: CharCharOdell wrote: Borne Velvalor wrote: medomai grey wrote: mmm... The damage is per missile fired, which increases the higher up in tier you go. Current STD Launcher: 330 * 4 = 1320 Nerfed PRO Launcher: 220 * 6 = 1320 Good. Maybe tanks will be the preferred AV in PC now like they should be. Only tanks can solo tanks!!! I'm happy.maybe u try teamwork, now? So, Rock trumps Paper and Scissors, tieing with itself. Stellar game balance. AV is not scissors to tanks [paper]. It's more like a little poke. Only tanks can solo tanks. It was that way in Chrome and it worked great in CBs. Gùñ-é-º+¼+ò+¦GÖÑ+ú+ú+¡ GÖÑ'Ðe+ü+üGùÑ Gùú -ä>-üð+++Ç++§<-¡<-¡ Gùó Speaker of the Mangrove / King of QQ / Co-Founder of the Learning Coalition
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1148	Posted - 2013.10.30 03:02:00 - [60] - Quote Michael Arck wrote: CharCharOdell wrote: So stop trying to solo tanks and you'll be okay. Did you know that if you get your whole squad to equip mlt swarms, you can kill any tank possible in two volleys at the most? LOL you said if...not "can" What, you don't roll in a squad?

Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1148	Posted - 2013.10.30 03:03:00 - [61] - Quote Justin Tymes wrote: CharCharOdell wrote: So stop trying to solo tanks and you'll be okay. Did you know that if you get your whole squad to equip mlt swarms, you can kill any tank possible in two volleys at the most? 1 man in a tank that can kill both vehicles and infantry vs 6 men with AV that is useless against anything but Vehicles. Seems legit. You can use commando suits and PRO sidearms. You can use 3 forge guns up high so they're equally devastating against both infantry and vehicles. Why must pilots always figure things out for infantry?
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1148	Posted - 2013.10.30 03:07:00 - [62] - Quote DeadlyAztec11 wrote: Justin Tymes wrote: CharCharOdell wrote: So stop trying to solo tanks and you'll be okay. Did you know that if you get your whole squad to equip mlt swarms, you can kill any tank possible in two volleys at the most? 1 man in a tank that can kill both vehicles and infantry vs 6 men with AV that is useless against anything but Vehicles. Seems legit. Stop trying to use logic against tankers. Just don't. Stop spouting off your double standards.
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1148	Posted - 2013.10.30 03:08:00 - [63] - Quote Borne Velvalor wrote: CharCharOdell wrote: Borne Velvalor wrote: medomai grey wrote: mmm... The damage is per missile fired, which increases the higher up in tier you go. Current STD Launcher: 330 * 4 = 1320 Nerfed PRO Launcher: 220 * 6 = 1320 Good. Maybe tanks will be the preferred AV in PC now like they should be. Only tanks can solo tanks!!! I'm happy.maybe u try teamwork, now? So, Rock trumps Paper and Scissors, tieing with itself. Stellar game balance. Can you explain to me why it's wrong to balance for PC, and why it's wrong that the best counter to a tank should be another tank?
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1148	Posted - 2013.10.30 03:09:00 - [64] - Quote Jack McReady wrote: Fizzer94 wrote: Borne Velvalor wrote: Just so people understand the severity of the nerf, after 1.6 proto swarms will deal the same damage as current standard swarms, with a 55% range reduction. Hardened HAVs have around the same TTK as they do now, so the comparison should be accurate, even after vehicle changes. Find a Falchion and take out your standard swarms. This is how using top tier swarms will feel in the future, but with lower range. You're welcome. Tanks get less health in the future. Also, as I have said before, if I can kill tanks with a Plasma Cannon, your easy mode swarms will do just fine. you are wrong, do the math of the announcements. the ehp will actually be higher than now. you will have to fire proto swarms ~23 to ~30s (depending on amount of damage mods) against an armor tank and that is assuming the tank driver does not bother to move at all. CharCharOdell wrote: Good. Maybe tanks will be the preferred AV in PC now like they should be. Only tanks can solo tanks!!! I'm happy.maybe u try teamwork, now? how about you learn to use teamwork instead of trying to solo squads with a tank? if the values of tank and AV announcements go live you can fully except another tank nerf 1 month later and finally tank scrubs like you will be phased out. So at least you're admitting that infantry's end-game is get rid of tanks altogether. And no, eHP won't be higher because active repair modules are going away. Did you even look at the proposed numbers, or just pull BS statements out your rear end?
THUNDERGROOVE ZionTCD Public Disorder. 1200	Posted - 2013.10.30 03:30:00 - [65] - Quote Justin Tymes wrote: CharCharOdell wrote: So stop trying to solo tanks and you'll be okay. Did you know that if you get your whole squad to equip mlt swarms, you can kill any tank possible in two volleys at the most? 1 man in a tank that can kill both vehicles and infantry vs 6 men with AV that is useless against anything but Vehicles. Seems legit. What is a sidearm? You know SMGs are actually pretty good and can even compete against ARs? In fact, I often run two of them What is a signature?
Skihids Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2367	Posted - 2013.10.30 03:34:00 - [66] - Quote SL range is getting reduced so it can't cover the entire map without moving, or even crossing the redline. If dropships are expected to retreat for cool down they have to have someplace to retreat to.
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1148	Posted - 2013.10.30 03:45:00 - [67] - Quote Borne Velvalor wrote: I meant Vayu for the OP. I correct this a third of a page down. Madrugar is the only accurate baseline, though, so I apologize. Why mention a MLT tank by another name? The Vayu is terrible, and only viable with significant infantry and sniper support. I read the post CCP made. I read both the weapon and vehicle changes. When the vehicle stat changes were announced I wrote multiple essay length posts. Much of the math on how Madrugars would be pretty much the same as they are now with hardeners up was cut out due to the character limit. Same? No. Any tanker that wants to survive the escape after the engagement is going for one repper and two hardeners. CCP put in the proposed module tree that after skills, active armor hardeners will last for only 45 seconds, instead of the current 60 seconds. Oh boy. A cyclical life and power span so that HAV users will have even more reason to boost around a corner and magically disappear into the air. What fun for both pilot and swarm user! So, what, you want hardeners removed altogether? You want NOS modules removed altogether just because you're stupid enough to try to solo every tank you come across? It's okay that Swarm Launcher range has been reduced, because CCP can't fix draw distance? Not a valid reason. The player doesn't care because of what technical incompetence or insufficiency the change is made. The range nerf doesn't seem too bad, except in combination with the damage nerf, though. CCP gave the single biggest buff to swarms because they couldn't make it so you can do any action immediately after firing. You're really going to complain about not being able to use extreme range to your advantage now? I hear Call of Duty is more close quarters, maybe you should give that a try. P.S. I said try the swarms against the current Falchion. I meant Vayu. If HAVs with hardeners do last longer (some others have claimed that after stacking, they live LONGER than current HAVs), then a Vayu -> Madrugar comparison could be more accurate. It slipped my mind at the time that they were being removed, but the Madrugar stays. I know, I know. The whole concept of the OP is negated by using the word "Falchion/Vayu" instead of "Gunnlogi/Madrugar." Again, reps are going to be passive, not active. We'll be less able to survive high-alpha damage when the pass comes. Does your brain function properly? You're right. CCP should just post all the stats of the HAVs and Swarm Launcher changes and no one should say anything negative about them. We should all just wait until they are in front of our faces months from now, without any prior speculation. How many other stealth tweaks, fixes, nerfs and buffs have they given us? Do you not recall how many of us angrily posted threads (rightfully so) that the powergrid skill had been stealth nerfed into the ground? My point is simply that PRO launchers will be doing STD damage. That's a fact, unless they make them fire a different amount of missiles, which was not stated. From what I've seen of vehicles, the nerf will prevent PRO Swarms from tearing every HAV a new hole while simultaneously making anything below utter garbage. This may all be wrong, of course. I'll feel free to QQ all I want. There's no need for you to participate by QQing about QQers because you don't like me stating facts and speculating what I think that the effects of said facts might be. Swarms are being nerfed commensurate to how tanks are being nerfed. If they kept AV stats as is when the pass comes, do you really think anybody would tank anymore? But then again, that's your goal, isn't it? To make vehicles so weak and AV so totally OP that nobody will drive a tank ever again?
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1148	Posted - 2013.10.30 04:04:00 - [68] - Quote Delta 749 wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: My opinion on Swarm Launchers, they should either be: - Long range and low damage: this would allow them to apply constant nagging pressure to vehicles but it difficult to remove them in a very short period of time. This means that whilst you're doing less damage each volley, you can more likely get the volley in the first place. - Short range and high damage: this makes getting your shots of more difficult but rewards you for doing so. This allows DS pilots to escape more easily than ground vehicles (since they can hit their AB and away) but makes the Swarms do substantial alpha-damage. I think having variant Swarm Launchers do one or the other could be a good solution by allowing players to actively choose whether they want to annoy and distract while putting sustained damage on a target or if they want to risk themselves and try to completely destroy their target in short order. That's my thoughts as a DS pilot anyway. First reasonable thing Ive seen a vehicle pilot say on the matter, for the most part its the same HAV circle jerk crew that spent the past six months crying now going down on each other in joy Anyway I full agree with setting up two variants of the thing that work in the ways you outline You've never tanked a day on Dust, your opinion means nothing.
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1148	Posted - 2013.10.30 04:05:00 - [69] - Quote Borne Velvalor wrote: pegasis prime wrote: born when you say pro launchers do std damage std havs are getting mlt grade hp HAVs are getting a big buff to hardeners. I did the math when the stats were released, and a hardened Madrugar should live about as long as the one we have now with the standard hardener(s) + repair unit + plates with nitrous/heat sink/scanner. Double hardeners might make them ridiculously hard to kill, I can't remember much about the total health after resistance for that, though. Shield HAVs get a 60% reduction in damage when their hardeners go up, after the changes. Armor HAVs get a 40% reduction. They might be frail enough when not hardened to kill before they can get away but a good HAV has a ring of infantry around it. Meanwhile, you've got a swarm launcher that kills squat. So, good luck following those HAVs that decide to boost around a corner and recall, or cooldown and repair. Why are you trying to figure it out as if you're the sole person on your team, in every match, with any AV at all? You don't run in a squad with at least one other person, ever? 60 seconds > 45 seconds (after skills)
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1148	Posted - 2013.10.30 04:08:00 - [70] - Quote CharCharOdell wrote: Borne Velvalor wrote: CharCharOdell wrote: Borne Velvalor wrote: medomai grey wrote: mmm... The damage is per missile fired, which increases the higher up in tier you go. Current STD Launcher: 330 * 4 = 1320 Nerfed PRO Launcher: 220 * 6 = 1320 Good. Maybe tanks will be the preferred AV in PC now like they should be. Only tanks can solo tanks!!! I'm happy.maybe u try teamwork, now? So, Rock trumps Paper and Scissors, tieing with itself. Stellar game balance. AV is not scissors to tanks [paper]. It's more like a little poke. Only tanks can solo tanks. It was that way in Chrome and it worked great in CBs. I don't know the problem infantry had with the Chromosome build. It was the best time tanks ever had, because they were their own best counter, but that's not good enough for infantry, so they got nerfed again.

Borne Velvalor Endless Hatred 856	Posted - 2013.10.30 04:34:00 - [71] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Borne Velvalor wrote: I meant Vayu for the OP. I correct this a third of a page down. Madrugar is the only accurate baseline, though, so I apologize. Why mention a MLT tank by another name? The Vayu is terrible, and only viable with significant infantry and sniper support. Hyperbole. But you're right. After examining the stats, the Vayu sucks. Another problem. I read the post CCP made. I read both the weapon and vehicle changes. When the vehicle stat changes were announced I wrote multiple essay length posts. Much of the math on how Madrugars would be pretty much the same as they are now with hardeners up was cut out due to the character limit. Same? No. Any tanker that wants to survive the escape after the engagement is going for one repper and two hardeners. CCP put in the proposed module tree that after skills, active armor hardeners will last for only 45 seconds, instead of the current 60 seconds. So, even more cyclical if two are stacked or less in exchange for longer duration if cycled? Still can recall around a corner. Oh boy. A cyclical life and power span so that HAV users will have even more reason to boost around a corner and magically disappear into the air. What fun for both pilot and swarm user! So, what, you want hardeners removed altogether? You want NOS modules removed altogether just because you're stupid enough to try to solo every tank you come across? Of course not. Fixing recall would help, though, so we can realistically hit HAVs once their hardeners drop. Maybe then I'd agree with the swarm nerf. It's okay that Swarm Launcher range has been reduced, because CCP can't fix draw distance? Not a valid reason. The player doesn't care because of what technical incompetence or insufficiency the change is made. The range nerf doesn't seem too bad, except in combination with the damage nerf, though. CCP gave the single biggest buff to swarms because they couldn't make it so you can do any action immediately after firing. You're really going to complain about not being able to use extreme range to your advantage now? I hear Call of Duty is more close quarters, maybe you should give that a try. Although I was debunking the whole "oh, they nerfed swarm range because the draw distance sucks" argument, I mentioned that the range nerf would be fine if it weren't for the 33% reduction in damage at the same time. Also, I prestiged twice in BLOPS 2 and I now hate CoD. P.S. I said try the swarms against the current Falchion. I meant Vayu. If HAVs with hardeners do last longer (some others have claimed that after stacking, they live LONGER than current HAVs), then a Vayu -> Madrugar comparison could be more accurate. It slipped my mind at the time that they were being removed, but the Madrugar stays. I know, I know. The whole concept of the OP is negated by using the word "Falchion/Vayu" instead of "Gunnlogi/Madrugar." Again, reps are going to be passive, not active. We'll be less able to survive high-alpha damage when the pass comes. Does your brain function properly? How often do the repair units repair? I couldn't find an answer. It seems to be the same as dropsuit passive repair. In this case, the best armor repair unit repairs 140 armor a second. The best active one repairs at 414 repair every 3 seconds. Passive would be 420 in three seconds. This doesn't seem balanced, though, so maybe it doesn't work that way. Also, maybe my brain doesn't "work." Maybe yours doesn't. Petty. You're right. CCP should just post all the stats of the HAVs and Swarm Launcher changes and no one should say anything negative about them. We should all just wait until they are in front of our faces months from now, without any prior speculation. How many other stealth tweaks, fixes, nerfs and buffs have they given us? Do you not recall how many of us angrily posted threads (rightfully so) that the powergrid skill had been stealth nerfed into the ground? Is your point that we should be grateful for a forewarning or that I should stop QQing because you've got plenty to QQ about, too? My point is simply that PRO launchers will be doing STD damage. That's a fact, unless they make them fire a different amount of missiles, which was not stated. From what I've seen of vehicles, the nerf will prevent PRO Swarms from tearing every HAV a new hole while simultaneously making anything below utter garbage. This may all be wrong, of course. I'll feel free to QQ all I want. There's no need for you to participate by QQing about QQers because you don't like me stating facts and speculating what I think that the effects of said facts might be. Swarms are being nerfed commensurate to how tanks are being nerfed. If they kept AV stats as is when the pass comes, do you really think anybody would tank anymore? But then again, that's your goal, isn't it? To make vehicles so weak and AV so totally OP that nobody will drive a tank ever again? Oh, boy, assumptions. I love those. No, I want vehicles to be more prevalent, not less, while also being balanced. Proto AV was OP and needed a nerf. Lower tiers were not, unless you were running several proto damage mods with proficiency. This was mostly due to the missile amount curve, rather than a damage curve. Of course, the lower tiers weren't bad against some vehicle types. This nerf affects all tiers, so that all we essentially have is STD, worse STD and even worse STD. Maybe this is in line with the vehicle changes and maybe you've thought it through better than I have. I'll admit it. I could be completely wrong. Also, the proto to standard AV equivalency statement was to show the severity of the change, since 33% isn't very easy to relate to. It's not saying that proto AV is perfectly fine and AV to vehicle balance is all sugar and lolipops.
Borne Velvalor Endless Hatred 856	Posted - 2013.10.30 04:42:00 - [72] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Borne Velvalor wrote: pegasis prime wrote: born when you say pro launchers do std damage std havs are getting mlt grade hp HAVs are getting a big buff to hardeners. I did the math when the stats were released, and a hardened Madrugar should live about as long as the one we have now with the standard hardener(s) + repair unit + plates with nitrous/heat sink/scanner. Double hardeners might make them ridiculously hard to kill, I can't remember much about the total health after resistance for that, though. Shield HAVs get a 60% reduction in damage when their hardeners go up, after the changes. Armor HAVs get a 40% reduction. They might be frail enough when not hardened to kill before they can get away but a good HAV has a ring of infantry around it. Meanwhile, you've got a swarm launcher that kills squat. So, good luck following those HAVs that decide to boost around a corner and recall, or cooldown and repair. Why are you trying to figure it out as if you're the sole person on your team, in every match, with any AV at all? You don't run in a squad with at least one other person, ever? 60 seconds > 45 seconds (after skills) I run in squads all day. I never play without a squad these days. Still, half the time I'm the only guy to pull out a swarm launcher. Now, on a good squad, a few guys may pull them out. Then we all die, because 3 guys with crappy SL's can't take out a HAV before it boosts behind a corner and gets recalled, at which point we respawn as anti-infantry and the HAV gets redeployed. Sure, we could have 2-3 players always on Swarm Launchers to prevent the HAV from being called back in, but these players can't fight and aren't having much fun running around with a purely AV weapon with no Vs to fight. HAVs are the biggest problem in Ambush, where there's often only one supply depot and the HAV blows it up. You need to lose a clone every time you want to swap to AV. If the recall mechanic were fixed (not removed altogether) then the Swarm Launchers might indeed be in line with the vehicle changes, specifically HAVs. So, maybe I'm just blaming the wrong mechanics. You and others have brought up some valid points, so I'll just wait for the changes and see.
Justin Tymes Dem Durrty Boyz Public Disorder. 463	Posted - 2013.10.30 04:58:00 - [73] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Justin Tymes wrote: CharCharOdell wrote: So stop trying to solo tanks and you'll be okay. Did you know that if you get your whole squad to equip mlt swarms, you can kill any tank possible in two volleys at the most? 1 man in a tank that can kill both vehicles and infantry vs 6 men with AV that is useless against anything but Vehicles. Seems legit. You can use commando suits and PRO sidearms. You can use 3 forge guns up high so they're equally devastating against both infantry and vehicles. Why must pilots always figure things out for infantry? Did you just try to counter the 1 v 6 argument with use lolcommando suits? Sidearms against ARs with a 1-40+ meter optimal? Light and Medium Frames can use Forge Guns now, (completely irrelevant to swarm launchers)? You actually expect people to take you seriously?
Borne Velvalor Endless Hatred 857	Posted - 2013.10.30 05:06:00 - [74] - Quote Justin Tymes wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Justin Tymes wrote: CharCharOdell wrote: So stop trying to solo tanks and you'll be okay. Did you know that if you get your whole squad to equip mlt swarms, you can kill any tank possible in two volleys at the most? 1 man in a tank that can kill both vehicles and infantry vs 6 men with AV that is useless against anything but Vehicles. Seems legit. You can use commando suits and PRO sidearms. You can use 3 forge guns up high so they're equally devastating against both infantry and vehicles. Why must pilots always figure things out for infantry? Did you just try to counter the 1 v 6 argument with use lolcommando suits? Sidearms against ARs with a 1-40+ meter optimal? Light and Medium Frames can use Forge Guns now, (completely irrelevant to swarm launchers)? You actually expect people to take you seriously? Aside from that, this thread is about Swarm Launchers. This quote pyramid seemed to be about them until "lolno, use a Forge Gun" came into play. In my experience, Forge Guns have been more viable in Ambush because you don't die 3 seconds after equipping them. HAV recalls? No problem, pseudosniper mode engaged. Annoying? Yes. Fun? Yes. Even if I do get OHKO by them a lot.
gbghg L.O.T.I.S. Public Disorder. 3895	Posted - 2013.10.30 13:18:00 - [75] - Quote Justin Tymes wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Justin Tymes wrote: CharCharOdell wrote: So stop trying to solo tanks and you'll be okay. Did you know that if you get your whole squad to equip mlt swarms, you can kill any tank possible in two volleys at the most? 1 man in a tank that can kill both vehicles and infantry vs 6 men with AV that is useless against anything but Vehicles. Seems legit. You can use commando suits and PRO sidearms. You can use 3 forge guns up high so they're equally devastating against both infantry and vehicles. Why must pilots always figure things out for infantry? Did you just try to counter the 1 v 6 argument with use lolcommando suits? Sidearms against ARs with a 1-40+ meter optimal? Light and Medium Frames can use Forge Guns now, (completely irrelevant to swarm launchers)? You actually expect people to take you seriously? you know, i use SMG's on my logi suit and provided you actually use your head and close the range the SMG is more than a match for the AR, unless your up against a caldari in which case unless your carrying flux's your screwed. Lv 3 forum warrior Bringer of Bacon Knight of AMV's
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 465	Posted - 2013.10.30 13:43:00 - [76] - Quote Fizzer94 wrote: Borne Velvalor wrote: Just so people understand the severity of the nerf, after 1.6 proto swarms will deal the same damage as current standard swarms, with a 55% range reduction. Hardened HAVs have around the same TTK as they do now, so the comparison should be accurate, even after vehicle changes. Find a Falchion and take out your standard swarms. This is how using top tier swarms will feel in the future, but with lower range. You're welcome. Tanks get less health in the future. Also, as I have said before, if I can kill tanks with a Plasma Cannon, your easy mode swarms will do just fine. Kill a tank while being shot at by the tank and infantry at the same time, then call it easy mode If you can't solo me w/MLT AV, or if you get shot by infantry, it's your fault -Tanker's Logic (New ones everyday!)
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 465	Posted - 2013.10.30 13:48:00 - [77] - Quote gbghg wrote: Justin Tymes wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Justin Tymes wrote: CharCharOdell wrote: So stop trying to solo tanks and you'll be okay. Did you know that if you get your whole squad to equip mlt swarms, you can kill any tank possible in two volleys at the most? 1 man in a tank that can kill both vehicles and infantry vs 6 men with AV that is useless against anything but Vehicles. Seems legit. You can use commando suits and PRO sidearms. You can use 3 forge guns up high so they're equally devastating against both infantry and vehicles. Why must pilots always figure things out for infantry? Did you just try to counter the 1 v 6 argument with use lolcommando suits? Sidearms against ARs with a 1-40+ meter optimal? Light and Medium Frames can use Forge Guns now, (completely irrelevant to swarm launchers)? You actually expect people to take you seriously? you know, i use SMG's on my logi suit and provided you actually use your head and close the range the SMG is more than a match for the AR, unless your up against a caldari in which case unless your carrying flux's your screwed. Your an idiot. If I am in my AV fitting, wouldn't I have AV grenades? And yeah while you try to get into an SMGs optimal range, I'm gonna be a smart person and buttplugg you with a Duvolle. You assume that you will always be in CQC with infantry, when you are typically in mid rang. Not all Logi's have sidearms and yeah I want you to put your theory to the test. See how long it takes to get buttpluged before you can get in the SMGs optimal range If you can't solo me w/MLT AV, or if you get shot by infantry, it's your fault -Tanker's Logic (New ones everyday!)
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 465	Posted - 2013.10.30 13:55:00 - [78] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: CharCharOdell wrote: Borne Velvalor wrote: CharCharOdell wrote: Good. Maybe tanks will be the preferred AV in PC now like they should be. Only tanks can solo tanks!!! I'm happy.maybe u try teamwork, now? So, Rock trumps Paper and Scissors, tieing with itself. Stellar game balance. AV is not scissors to tanks [paper]. It's more like a little poke. Only tanks can solo tanks. It was that way in Chrome and it worked great in CBs. I don't know the problem infantry had with the Chromosome build. It was the best time tanks ever had, because they were their own best counter, but that's not good enough for infantry, so they got nerfed again. Tanks should never be a better counter to themselves, especially when there is an AV class present AV is ANTI-VEHICLE, which is and should be a tank's greatest weakness The fact that you don't realize this and are way to biased to even attempt to use SLs is enough to prove that you have no idea of what you are talking about. This string of posts alone is enough to prove that my "Tank 514" thread is indeed true. Thank you for proving my point. If you can't solo me w/MLT AV, or if you get shot by infantry, it's your fault -Tanker's Logic (New ones everyday!)
gbghg L.O.T.I.S. Public Disorder. 3895	Posted - 2013.10.30 14:06:00 - [79] - Quote Atiim wrote: gbghg wrote: you know, i use SMG's on my logi suit and provided you actually use your head and close the range the SMG is more than a match for the AR, unless your up against a caldari in which case unless your carrying flux's your screwed. Your an idiot. If I am in my AV fitting, wouldn't I have AV grenades? And yeah while you try to get into an SMGs optimal range, I'm gonna be a smart person and buttplugg you with a Duvolle. You assume that you will always be in CQC with infantry, when you are typically in mid rang. Not all Logi's have sidearms and yeah I want you to put your theory to the test. See how long it takes to get buttpluged before you can get in the SMGs optimal range the point about flux's was a general statement about how SMG's aren't as effective vs shields, besides if your going up against a shield tank carrying flux's makes some sense, however you're right, most av fits will be carrying av nades. and my point about the use of SMG's is that an AV'er should only be using them in a worse care scenario, aka they get ambushed and trapped in a fight with enemy infantry, and the majority of those situations result in the enemy rushing you if you're able to find cover. otherwise if someone starts taking potshots at you at medium range you should displace and move on somewhere else, not try and take them on. as for how effective my logi fit is? well if i get caught out at medium range i'm at a severe disadvantage, but thats part of the challenge, i have to use friendly infantry/vehicles as distraction, make use of cover, use the map to my advantage to close the distance into my optimal, in other words i have to use my head rather than just stand there and shoot at something with a lock on weapon. i mean jesus, you accuse tankers of wanting to be able to take out both tanks and infantry solo and yet i'm picking up the exact same vibe from you "oh noes the fact that we can't defend against slayers is bad,, tanks must be weakened so we can kill them then quickly switch back to our slayer fits", you accuse tankers of being biased and i will admit, more than a few are, yet you are without a doubt one of the most biased individuals on these forums, if it isn't something that weakens vehicles and buffs AV then its just "TANKS514!!!!! TANKS514!!!!!!", the hypocrisy you employ is dreadful and clearly doesn't take account of the fact that these vehicles aren't spawned out of no where by the game, they are actively purchased and skilled into by other players, all this community has ever seen from you is an attempt to remove a playstyle that you believe has wronged you somehow. Lv 3 forum warrior Bringer of Bacon Knight of AMV's
Jadu Wen Xer Cloud Consortium 26	Posted - 2013.10.30 14:52:00 - [80] - Quote What people don't seem to realize is that swarm launchers make lovely direction arrows for snipers. If you're going to run vehicles have a buddy hold lookout. Problems solved. GûÆGûêGûæGûæGûÆGûê GûÆGûêGûÇGûÇGûÇ GûÆGûêGûäGûæGûÆGûê GûÆGûêGûÆGûêGûÆGûê GûÆGûêGûÇGûÇGûÇ GûÆGûêGûÆGûêGûÆGûê GûÆGûêGûäGûÇGûäGûê GûÆGûêGûäGûäGûä GûÆGûêGûæGûæGûÇGûê ? SoonGäó

Pent'noir Algintal Core Gallente Federation 169	Posted - 2013.10.30 15:33:00 - [81] - Quote Tank's have had it bad for a long time and now it's their turn to get some joy, although, I don't think it is very much joy. It would be better to try and get new ppl to see the value of investing into a form of av (probably forges). If the tanks dominate with the changes, then i'll be blaming the lack of ppl with sp into av. Av is cheap and it would be nice if I wasn't the only one with a prof 5 into an av weapon and grenadier 5 on my pub match team. It will be our fault that we let them run rampant. Start investing into AV! AV eventually learns different tactics to avoid or deal with infantry and get better at surviving. That smg is a powerful weapon with high sp. Although, for the love of all that's good, please make a RDV come and pick up recalls.
MassiveNine 0uter.Heaven Proficiency V. 346	Posted - 2013.10.30 15:37:00 - [82] - Quote swarms were OP and now they aren't end of discussion.
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 465	Posted - 2013.10.30 15:57:00 - [83] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Delta 749 wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: My opinion on Swarm Launchers, they should either be: - Long range and low damage: this would allow them to apply constant nagging pressure to vehicles but it difficult to remove them in a very short period of time. This means that whilst you're doing less damage each volley, you can more likely get the volley in the first place. - Short range and high damage: this makes getting your shots of more difficult but rewards you for doing so. This allows DS pilots to escape more easily than ground vehicles (since they can hit their AB and away) but makes the Swarms do substantial alpha-damage. I think having variant Swarm Launchers do one or the other could be a good solution by allowing players to actively choose whether they want to annoy and distract while putting sustained damage on a target or if they want to risk themselves and try to completely destroy their target in short order. That's my thoughts as a DS pilot anyway. First reasonable thing Ive seen a vehicle pilot say on the matter, for the most part its the same HAV circle jerk crew that spent the past six months crying now going down on each other in joy Anyway I full agree with setting up two variants of the thing that work in the ways you outline You've never tanked a day on Dust, your opinion means nothing. You've never used PRO AV a day in DUST, so by that logic your opinion wouldn't matter either. But that logic is faulty because this game is for EVERYONE, NOT JUST TANKERS AND AV. If you can't solo me w/MLT AV, or if you get shot by infantry, it's your fault -Tanker's Logic (New ones everyday!)
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 465	Posted - 2013.10.30 15:58:00 - [84] - Quote MassiveNine wrote: swarms were OP and now they aren't end of discussion. Tanks were OP and now they aren't Logic doesn't suit you does it? If you can't solo me w/MLT AV, or if you get shot by infantry, it's your fault -Tanker's Logic (New ones everyday!)
Deranged Disaster The Rainbow Effect 549	Posted - 2013.10.30 15:58:00 - [85] - Quote I'm against the range nerf personally but not necessarily because of the tanks. More because, believe it or not, the dropships. I've had people fly up all the way to the very top of the ceiling and be literally invincible, continuously dropping people on a letter through a CRU. Unless you took another dropship and rammed them off you couldn't do much else but sit there and wait. And no, FGs didn't even get close. We chew nyan cats and spit rainbows.
MassiveNine 0uter.Heaven Proficiency V. 346	Posted - 2013.10.30 16:05:00 - [86] - Quote Atiim wrote: MassiveNine wrote: swarms were OP and now they aren't end of discussion. Tanks were OP and now they aren't Logic doesn't suit you does it? Tanks got it a lot worse than swarms. It was pretty rediculous to call in a dropship only to instantly start being hit from a barrage of swarms from an unknown location all the way across the man.
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 465	Posted - 2013.10.30 17:55:00 - [87] - Quote Pent'noir wrote: Tank's have had it bad for a long time and now it's their turn to get some joy, although, I don't think it is very much joy. It would be better to try and get new ppl to see the value of investing into a form of av (probably forges). If the tanks dominate with the changes, then i'll be blaming the lack of ppl with sp into av. Av is cheap and it would be nice if I wasn't the only one with a prof 5 into an av weapon and grenadier 5 on my pub match team. It will be our fault that we let them run rampant. Start investing into AV! AV eventually learns different tactics to avoid or deal with infantry and get better at surviving. That smg is a powerful weapon with high sp. Although, for the love of all that's good, please make a RDV come and pick up recalls. You aren't alone. I'd love to play a game of Taliban tank hunters, but there are still many things that concern me with the AV nerf. If you can't solo me w/MLT AV, or if you get shot by infantry, it's your fault -Tanker's Logic (New ones everyday!)
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 1463	Posted - 2013.10.30 18:54:00 - [88] - Quote Borne Velvalor wrote: Just so people understand the severity of the nerf, after 1.6 proto swarms will deal the same damage as current standard swarms, with a 55% range reduction. Hardened HAVs have around the same TTK as they do now, so the comparison should be accurate, even after vehicle changes. Find a Falchion and take out your standard swarms. This is how using top tier swarms will feel in the future, but with lower range. You're welcome. It is irresponsible to make a post like this and not link a source. I see no mention of this in the 1.6 Patch Notes. So I am going to assume that you are reading stuff proposed for 1.7 and assuming it will be in 1.6. Unless you can provide a reliable reference that says otherwise. Immortal Guides, supporting knowledge dissemination in New Eden since August 31, 2013.
Smooth Assassin Stardust incorporation 315	Posted - 2013.10.30 19:14:00 - [89] - Quote Fizzer94 wrote: Borne Velvalor wrote: Just so people understand the severity of the nerf, after 1.6 proto swarms will deal the same damage as current standard swarms, with a 55% range reduction. Hardened HAVs have around the same TTK as they do now, so the comparison should be accurate, even after vehicle changes. Find a Falchion and take out your standard swarms. This is how using top tier swarms will feel in the future, but with lower range. You're welcome. Tanks get less health in the future. Also, as I have said before, if I can kill tanks with a Plasma Cannon, your easy mode swarms will do just fine. Teach me. *Assassination is my thing.*
knight of 6 SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 529	Posted - 2013.10.30 19:17:00 - [90] - Quote fasten you tinfoil hats I got a theory. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=118244 thread made, please take a look, I'm not psychic but I think I may know what ccp is up too. I'd expect more heavy weapons soon(tm). "Change the scheme! Alter the mood! Electrify the boys and girls if you would be so kind" Ko6, scout, tanker.

Borne Velvalor Endless Hatred 869	Posted - 2013.10.30 19:52:00 - [91] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Borne Velvalor wrote: Just so people understand the severity of the nerf, after 1.6 proto swarms will deal the same damage as current standard swarms, with a 55% range reduction. Hardened HAVs have around the same TTK as they do now, so the comparison should be accurate, even after vehicle changes. Find a Falchion and take out your standard swarms. This is how using top tier swarms will feel in the future, but with lower range. You're welcome. It is irresponsible to make a post like this and not link a source. I see no mention of this in the 1.6 Patch Notes. So I am going to assume that you are reading stuff proposed for 1.7 and assuming it will be in 1.6. Unless you can provide a reliable reference that says otherwise. Yes, sorry, it looks like they'll be coming in 1.7. I'll try to be less haphazard in the future. The Vehicle Changes thread says "after 1.6" and the blog says 1.7. Maybe I thought it said "in 1.6." I can't even remember if the proposed vehicle changes were going to originally launch in 1.6, but maybe that's why that came to my mind first.
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1159	Posted - 2013.10.30 22:52:00 - [92] - Quote Borne Velvalor wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Borne Velvalor wrote: pegasis prime wrote: born when you say pro launchers do std damage std havs are getting mlt grade hp HAVs are getting a big buff to hardeners. I did the math when the stats were released, and a hardened Madrugar should live about as long as the one we have now with the standard hardener(s) + repair unit + plates with nitrous/heat sink/scanner. Double hardeners might make them ridiculously hard to kill, I can't remember much about the total health after resistance for that, though. Shield HAVs get a 60% reduction in damage when their hardeners go up, after the changes. Armor HAVs get a 40% reduction. They might be frail enough when not hardened to kill before they can get away but a good HAV has a ring of infantry around it. Meanwhile, you've got a swarm launcher that kills squat. So, good luck following those HAVs that decide to boost around a corner and recall, or cooldown and repair. Why are you trying to figure it out as if you're the sole person on your team, in every match, with any AV at all? You don't run in a squad with at least one other person, ever? 60 seconds > 45 seconds (after skills) I run in squads all day. I never play without a squad these days. Still, half the time I'm the only guy to pull out a swarm launcher. Now, on a good squad, a few guys may pull them out. Then we all die, because 3 guys with crappy SL's can't take out a HAV before it boosts behind a corner and gets recalled, at which point we respawn as anti-infantry and the HAV gets redeployed. Sure, we could have 2-3 players always on Swarm Launchers to prevent the HAV from being called back in, but these players can't fight and aren't having much fun running around with a purely AV weapon with no Vs to fight. HAVs are the biggest problem in Ambush, where there's often only one supply depot and the HAV blows it up. You need to lose a clone every time you want to swap to AV. If the recall mechanic were fixed (not removed altogether) then the Swarm Launchers might indeed be in line with the vehicle changes, specifically HAVs. So, maybe I'm just blaming the wrong mechanics. You and others have brought up some valid points, so I'll just wait for the changes and see. You mean to tell me 3 guys with swarms can't destroy a tank, and you expose yourselves far more than you need to? I don't believe you at all. Teamwork for thee, but no teamwork for me, such is the motto of the anti vehicle infantry.
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1159	Posted - 2013.10.30 22:53:00 - [93] - Quote Justin Tymes wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Justin Tymes wrote: CharCharOdell wrote: So stop trying to solo tanks and you'll be okay. Did you know that if you get your whole squad to equip mlt swarms, you can kill any tank possible in two volleys at the most? 1 man in a tank that can kill both vehicles and infantry vs 6 men with AV that is useless against anything but Vehicles. Seems legit. You can use commando suits and PRO sidearms. You can use 3 forge guns up high so they're equally devastating against both infantry and vehicles. Why must pilots always figure things out for infantry? Did you just try to counter the 1 v 6 argument with use lolcommando suits? Sidearms against ARs with a 1-40+ meter optimal? Light and Medium Frames can use Forge Guns now, (completely irrelevant to swarm launchers)? You actually expect people to take you seriously? When did scouts gain the ability to use heavy weapons? Are you spewing BS out of your rear end? Teamwork for thee, but no teamwork for me, such is the motto of the anti vehicle infantry.
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1159	Posted - 2013.10.30 22:55:00 - [94] - Quote Atiim wrote: Fizzer94 wrote: Borne Velvalor wrote: Just so people understand the severity of the nerf, after 1.6 proto swarms will deal the same damage as current standard swarms, with a 55% range reduction. Hardened HAVs have around the same TTK as they do now, so the comparison should be accurate, even after vehicle changes. Find a Falchion and take out your standard swarms. This is how using top tier swarms will feel in the future, but with lower range. You're welcome. Tanks get less health in the future. Also, as I have said before, if I can kill tanks with a Plasma Cannon, your easy mode swarms will do just fine. Kill a tank while being shot at by the tank and infantry at the same time, then call it easy mode Nobody takes you seriously. You claim to tank, yet are on a crusade against tanks. You invalidate yourself. Teamwork for thee, but no teamwork for me, such is the motto of the anti vehicle infantry.
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1159	Posted - 2013.10.30 22:56:00 - [95] - Quote Atiim wrote: Tanks should never be a better counter to themselves, especially when there is an AV class present Explain this nugget of extreme intelligence, which in this day and age is akin to being in the Flat Earth Society. Teamwork for thee, but no teamwork for me, such is the motto of the anti vehicle infantry.
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1159	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:00:00 - [96] - Quote Atiim wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Delta 749 wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: My opinion on Swarm Launchers, they should either be: - Long range and low damage: this would allow them to apply constant nagging pressure to vehicles but it difficult to remove them in a very short period of time. This means that whilst you're doing less damage each volley, you can more likely get the volley in the first place. - Short range and high damage: this makes getting your shots of more difficult but rewards you for doing so. This allows DS pilots to escape more easily than ground vehicles (since they can hit their AB and away) but makes the Swarms do substantial alpha-damage. I think having variant Swarm Launchers do one or the other could be a good solution by allowing players to actively choose whether they want to annoy and distract while putting sustained damage on a target or if they want to risk themselves and try to completely destroy their target in short order. That's my thoughts as a DS pilot anyway. First reasonable thing Ive seen a vehicle pilot say on the matter, for the most part its the same HAV circle jerk crew that spent the past six months crying now going down on each other in joy Anyway I full agree with setting up two variants of the thing that work in the ways you outline You've never tanked a day on Dust, your opinion means nothing. You've never used PRO AV a day in DUST, so by that logic your opinion wouldn't matter either. But that logic is faulty because this game is for EVERYONE, NOT JUST TANKERS AND AV. How many times do I have to mention that I have proficiency 3 into forge guns? Teamwork for thee, but no teamwork for me, such is the motto of the anti vehicle infantry.
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1159	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:01:00 - [97] - Quote Atiim wrote: MassiveNine wrote: swarms were OP and now they aren't end of discussion. Tanks were OP and now they aren't Logic doesn't suit you does it? Lol when were tanks OP? Teamwork for thee, but no teamwork for me, such is the motto of the anti vehicle infantry.
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1159	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:03:00 - [98] - Quote Borne Velvalor wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Borne Velvalor wrote: Just so people understand the severity of the nerf, after 1.6 proto swarms will deal the same damage as current standard swarms, with a 55% range reduction. Hardened HAVs have around the same TTK as they do now, so the comparison should be accurate, even after vehicle changes. Find a Falchion and take out your standard swarms. This is how using top tier swarms will feel in the future, but with lower range. You're welcome. It is irresponsible to make a post like this and not link a source. I see no mention of this in the 1.6 Patch Notes. So I am going to assume that you are reading stuff proposed for 1.7 and assuming it will be in 1.6. Unless you can provide a reliable reference that says otherwise. Yes, sorry, it looks like they'll be coming in 1.7. I'll try to be less haphazard in the future. The Vehicle Changes thread says "after 1.6" and the blog says 1.7. Maybe I thought it said "in 1.6." I can't even remember if the proposed vehicle changes were going to originally launch in 1.6, but maybe that's why that came to my mind first. They were proposed for 1.5. Teamwork for thee, but no teamwork for me, such is the motto of the anti vehicle infantry.
IMPAIRS YOUR ABILITY Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 220	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:05:00 - [99] - Quote Where will all the FG's be to help those troops on the ground counter the vehicles, on a tower shooting at the infantry on the ground. lol love it, so many circular decisions over the last 18 months to cater to an AR COD clone have led to an impossible balance. What do you want, a game that is different that offers a variety of play styles, or do you want to always feel that your enjoyment hinges upon everything being equal and the same? This game can't be fair to that typical AR mentality that permeates every other FPS and offer diversity. ITS one or the other this game is different and if you don't like it try out the competition or this game is a poor imitation of that competition. If anything this game should buff everything but the AR and drive them away sooner than later because all they offer is a dilution of what was once a cool vision. I didn't choose to approach this game using anything but the AR because I wanted to be stunted and handicapped I could play BF or COD and do that. I choose this approach because CCP said this was going to be the game that offered diversity. In the end the playerbase doesn't want diversity they want to win eating nothing but vanilla ice cream.
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 468	Posted - 2013.10.30 23:42:00 - [100] - Quote knight of 6 wrote: fasten you tinfoil hats I got a theory. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=118244 thread made, please take a look, I'm not psychic but I think I may know what ccp is up too. I'd expect more heavy weapons soon(tm). This thread is about swarm launchers If you can't solo me w/MLT AV, or if you get shot by infantry, it's your fault -Tanker's Logic (New ones everyday!)

Borne Velvalor Endless Hatred 871	Posted - 2013.10.31 11:29:00 - [101] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Borne Velvalor wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Borne Velvalor wrote: Just so people understand the severity of the nerf, after 1.6 proto swarms will deal the same damage as current standard swarms, with a 55% range reduction. Hardened HAVs have around the same TTK as they do now, so the comparison should be accurate, even after vehicle changes. Find a Falchion and take out your standard swarms. This is how using top tier swarms will feel in the future, but with lower range. You're welcome. It is irresponsible to make a post like this and not link a source. I see no mention of this in the 1.6 Patch Notes. So I am going to assume that you are reading stuff proposed for 1.7 and assuming it will be in 1.6. Unless you can provide a reliable reference that says otherwise. Yes, sorry, it looks like they'll be coming in 1.7. I'll try to be less haphazard in the future. The Vehicle Changes thread says "after 1.6" and the blog says 1.7. Maybe I thought it said "in 1.6." I can't even remember if the proposed vehicle changes were going to originally launch in 1.6, but maybe that's why that came to my mind first. They were proposed for 1.5. That figures. Well, time passes by and I forget. You know, CCP with their SoonGäó.
Borne Velvalor Endless Hatred 871	Posted - 2013.10.31 11:32:00 - [102] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Justin Tymes wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Justin Tymes wrote: CharCharOdell wrote: So stop trying to solo tanks and you'll be okay. Did you know that if you get your whole squad to equip mlt swarms, you can kill any tank possible in two volleys at the most? 1 man in a tank that can kill both vehicles and infantry vs 6 men with AV that is useless against anything but Vehicles. Seems legit. You can use commando suits and PRO sidearms. You can use 3 forge guns up high so they're equally devastating against both infantry and vehicles. Why must pilots always figure things out for infantry? Did you just try to counter the 1 v 6 argument with use lolcommando suits? Sidearms against ARs with a 1-40+ meter optimal? Light and Medium Frames can use Forge Guns now, (completely irrelevant to swarm launchers)? You actually expect people to take you seriously? When did scouts gain the ability to use heavy weapons? Are you spewing BS out of your rear end? You missed the question mark at the end of the sentence. Light and Medium Frames can use Forge Guns now? = Light and Medium Frames cannot use Forge Guns, which are the primary users of Swarm Launchers. Thus, they are not a valid substitute.
Racro 01 Arifistan 501st Knights of Leanbox 61	Posted - 2013.10.31 11:35:00 - [103] - Quote Borne Velvalor wrote: Flix Keptick wrote: Well, I dont see why you would be trying to solo a falshion (SHIELD TANK) with swarms (EXPLOSIVE DAMAGE) I meant Vayu's, I always get them confused. Either way, it doesn't really matter. It can be a Madrugar, which actually makes more sense since Falchions/Vayus are gone in 1.6. in exchange you get to deal with the return of Mauder class hav's....... as all tankers have missied these puppys. i will be runnin g the surya. (exclusivley hopefully) as away to remebr how fun useing it was back in chromosome befor we got our actual proto tanks taken away because ''they were doing thier job too well''


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