Just so people understand the severity of the nerf, after 1.6 proto swarms will deal the same damage as current standard swarms, with a 55% range reduction. Hardened HAVs have around the same TTK as they do now, so the comparison should be accurate, even after vehicle changes.

Find a Falchion and take out your standard swarms. This is how using top tier swarms will feel in the future, but with lower range. You're welcome.

Just so people understand the severity of the nerf, after 1.6 proto swarms will deal the same damage as current standard swarms, with a 55% range reduction. Hardened HAVs have around the same TTK as they do now, so the comparison should be accurate, even after vehicle changes.

Find a Falchion and take out your standard swarms. This is how using top tier swarms will feel in the future, but with lower range. You're welcome.

Current STD Launcher: 330 * 4 = 1320
Nerfed PRO Launcher: 220 * 6 = 1320

LOL you said if...not "can"

1 man in a tank that can kill both vehicles and infantry vs 6 men with AV that is useless against anything but Vehicles.

Seems legit.

Stop trying to use logic against tankers.

Just don't.

So, Rock trumps Paper and Scissors, tieing with itself. Stellar game balance.

you are wrong, do the math of the announcements. the ehp will actually be higher than now. you will have to fire proto swarms ~23 to ~30s (depending on amount of damage mods) against an armor tank and that is assuming the tank driver does not bother to move at all.


how about you learn to use teamwork instead of trying to solo squads with a tank?

if the values of tank and AV announcements go live you can fully except another tank nerf 1 month later and finally tank scrubs like you will be phased out.

I meant Vayu for the OP. I correct this a third of a page down. Madrugar is the only accurate baseline, though, so I apologize.

Why mention a MLT tank by another name? The Vayu is terrible, and only viable with significant infantry and sniper support.



I read the post CCP made. I read both the weapon and vehicle changes. When the vehicle stat changes were announced I wrote multiple essay length posts. Much of the math on how Madrugars would be pretty much the same as they are now with hardeners up was cut out due to the character limit.

Same? No. Any tanker that wants to survive the escape after the engagement is going for one repper and two hardeners. CCP put in the proposed module tree that after skills, active armor hardeners will last for only 45 seconds, instead of the current 60 seconds.

Oh boy. A cyclical life and power span so that HAV users will have even more reason to boost around a corner and magically disappear into the air. What fun for both pilot and swarm user!

So, what, you want hardeners removed altogether? You want NOS modules removed altogether just because you're stupid enough to try to solo every tank you come across?

It's okay that Swarm Launcher range has been reduced, because CCP can't fix draw distance? Not a valid reason. The player doesn't care because of what technical incompetence or insufficiency the change is made. The range nerf doesn't seem too bad, except in combination with the damage nerf, though.

CCP gave the single biggest buff to swarms because they couldn't make it so you can do any action immediately after firing. You're really going to complain about not being able to use extreme range to your advantage now? I hear Call of Duty is more close quarters, maybe you should give that a try.

P.S. I said try the swarms against the current Falchion. I meant Vayu. If HAVs with hardeners do last longer (some others have claimed that after stacking, they live LONGER than current HAVs), then a Vayu -> Madrugar comparison could be more accurate. It slipped my mind at the time that they were being removed, but the Madrugar stays. I know, I know. The whole concept of the OP is negated by using the word "Falchion/Vayu" instead of "Gunnlogi/Madrugar."

Again, reps are going to be passive, not active. We'll be less able to survive high-alpha damage when the pass comes. Does your brain function properly?


You're right. CCP should just post all the stats of the HAVs and Swarm Launcher changes and no one should say anything negative about them. We should all just wait until they are in front of our faces months from now, without any prior speculation.

How many other stealth tweaks, fixes, nerfs and buffs have they given us? Do you not recall how many of us angrily posted threads (rightfully so) that the powergrid skill had been stealth nerfed into the ground?

My point is simply that PRO launchers will be doing STD damage. That's a fact, unless they make them fire a different amount of missiles, which was not stated. From what I've seen of vehicles, the nerf will prevent PRO Swarms from tearing every HAV a new hole while simultaneously making anything below utter garbage. This may all be wrong, of course. I'll feel free to QQ all I want. There's no need for you to participate by QQing about QQers because you don't like me stating facts and speculating what I think that the effects of said facts might be.

Swarms are being nerfed commensurate to how tanks are being nerfed. If they kept AV stats as is when the pass comes, do you really think anybody would tank anymore? But then again, that's your goal, isn't it? To make vehicles so weak and AV so totally OP that nobody will drive a tank ever again?

First reasonable thing Ive seen a vehicle pilot say on the matter, for the most part its the same HAV circle jerk crew that spent the past six months crying now going down on each other in joy
Anyway I full agree with setting up two variants of the thing that work in the ways you outline

HAVs are getting a big buff to hardeners. I did the math when the stats were released, and a hardened Madrugar should live about as long as the one we have now with the standard hardener(s) + repair unit + plates with nitrous/heat sink/scanner. Double hardeners might make them ridiculously hard to kill, I can't remember much about the total health after resistance for that, though. Shield HAVs get a 60% reduction in damage when their hardeners go up, after the changes. Armor HAVs get a 40% reduction. They might be frail enough when not hardened to kill before they can get away but a good HAV has a ring of infantry around it. Meanwhile, you've got a swarm launcher that kills squat. So, good luck following those HAVs that decide to boost around a corner and recall, or cooldown and repair.

AV is not scissors to tanks [paper]. It's more like a little poke. Only tanks can solo tanks. It was that way in Chrome and it worked great in CBs.

I run in squads all day. I never play without a squad these days. Still, half the time I'm the only guy to pull out a swarm launcher. Now, on a good squad, a few guys may pull them out. Then we all die, because 3 guys with crappy SL's can't take out a HAV before it boosts behind a corner and gets recalled, at which point we respawn as anti-infantry and the HAV gets redeployed. Sure, we could have 2-3 players always on Swarm Launchers to prevent the HAV from being called back in, but these players can't fight and aren't having much fun running around with a purely AV weapon with no Vs to fight. HAVs are the biggest problem in Ambush, where there's often only one supply depot and the HAV blows it up. You need to lose a clone every time you want to swap to AV.

If the recall mechanic were fixed (not removed altogether) then the Swarm Launchers might indeed be in line with the vehicle changes, specifically HAVs. So, maybe I'm just blaming the wrong mechanics. You and others have brought up some valid points, so I'll just wait for the changes and see.

Did you just try to counter the 1 v 6 argument with use lolcommando suits? Sidearms against ARs with a 1-40+ meter optimal? Light and Medium Frames can use Forge Guns now, (completely irrelevant to swarm launchers)? You actually expect people to take you seriously?

Kill a tank while being shot at by the tank and infantry at the same time, then call it easy mode

Tanks should never be a better counter to themselves, especially when there is an AV class present

You've never used PRO AV a day in DUST, so by that logic your opinion wouldn't matter either.

But that logic is faulty because this game is for EVERYONE, NOT JUST TANKERS AND AV.

Tanks were OP and now they aren't

Logic doesn't suit you does it?

Yes, sorry, it looks like they'll be coming in 1.7. I'll try to be less haphazard in the future. The Vehicle Changes thread says "after 1.6" and the blog says 1.7. Maybe I thought it said "in 1.6." I can't even remember if the proposed vehicle changes were going to originally launch in 1.6, but maybe that's why that came to my mind first.