Just so people understand the severity of the nerf, after 1.6 proto swarms will deal the same damage as current standard swarms, with a 55% range reduction. Hardened HAVs have around the same TTK as they do now, so the comparison should be accurate, even after vehicle changes.

Find a Falchion and take out your standard swarms. This is how using top tier swarms will feel in the future, but with lower range. You're welcome.

If you can sit next to a HAV hitting it with a Plasma Cannon for 15 seconds straight, I applaud you, kind sir. See, every time I see someone attack a HAV with a Swarm Launcher, it backs away and recalls. You must have fantastic aim and some crazy mods, or be blowing up Somas and Sicas, considering the Plasma Cannon deals less damage per shot with a longer delay and no lock on, plus bullet drop and a slow projectile.

True. I should've made this thread specifically about HAVs.

As for the video, I did the math for Madrugar's when the new vehicle stats were announced. They are slightly frailer after hardeners with one set of plates, one hardener and one repair unit. I don't think they die fast enough to warrant a 33% damage reduction to Swarm Launchers, especially non-proto swarm launchers which already cannot usually kill any properly fitted HAV unless the pilot is incompetent. What will a Madrugar take? 10 standard swarms with hardeners up or 6 proto swarms with glass cannon mods? Proto swarms needed to be nerfed a bit, so maybe this will work out somewhat for them. But this just makes standard and advanced swarms even harder to use. Few players spec into AV, because AV can only kill vehicles and they need the SP for their normal gear. Pilots mostly have nothing to spend SP on but their diamond encrusted recallable bricks.

HAVs with one or two guys inside are situationally either completely slaying whole teams or getting slain by proto AV. I don't think that making proto AV just "OK" and making everything below even worse crap will be solving any problems.

Few players spec into AV, because AV can only kill vehicles and they need the SP for their normal gear. Pilots mostly have nothing to spend SP on but their diamond encrusted recallable bricks.

Current STD Launcher: 330 * 4 = 1320
Nerfed PRO Launcher: 220 * 6 = 1320

Just so people understand the severity of the nerf, after 1.6 proto swarms will deal the same damage as current standard swarms, with a 55% range reduction. Hardened HAVs have around the same TTK as they do now, so the comparison should be accurate, even after vehicle changes.

Find a Falchion and take out your standard swarms. This is how using top tier swarms will feel in the future, but with lower range. You're welcome.

Just so people understand the severity of the nerf, after 1.6 proto swarms will deal the same damage as current standard swarms, with a 55% range reduction. Hardened HAVs have around the same TTK as they do now, so the comparison should be accurate, even after vehicle changes.

Find a Falchion and take out your standard swarms. This is how using top tier swarms will feel in the future, but with lower range. You're welcome.

I meant Vayu for the OP. I correct this a third of a page down. Madrugar is the only accurate baseline, though, so I apologize.

Why mention a MLT tank by another name? The Vayu is terrible, and only viable with significant infantry and sniper support.

Hyperbole. But you're right. After examining the stats, the Vayu sucks. Another problem.

I read the post CCP made. I read both the weapon and vehicle changes. When the vehicle stat changes were announced I wrote multiple essay length posts. Much of the math on how Madrugars would be pretty much the same as they are now with hardeners up was cut out due to the character limit.

Same? No. Any tanker that wants to survive the escape after the engagement is going for one repper and two hardeners. CCP put in the proposed module tree that after skills, active armor hardeners will last for only 45 seconds, instead of the current 60 seconds.

So, even more cyclical if two are stacked or less in exchange for longer duration if cycled? Still can recall around a corner.

Oh boy. A cyclical life and power span so that HAV users will have even more reason to boost around a corner and magically disappear into the air. What fun for both pilot and swarm user!

So, what, you want hardeners removed altogether? You want NOS modules removed altogether just because you're stupid enough to try to solo every tank you come across?

Of course not. Fixing recall would help, though, so we can realistically hit HAVs once their hardeners drop. Maybe then I'd agree with the swarm nerf.

It's okay that Swarm Launcher range has been reduced, because CCP can't fix draw distance? Not a valid reason. The player doesn't care because of what technical incompetence or insufficiency the change is made. The range nerf doesn't seem too bad, except in combination with the damage nerf, though.

CCP gave the single biggest buff to swarms because they couldn't make it so you can do any action immediately after firing. You're really going to complain about not being able to use extreme range to your advantage now? I hear Call of Duty is more close quarters, maybe you should give that a try.

Although I was debunking the whole "oh, they nerfed swarm range because the draw distance sucks" argument, I mentioned that the range nerf would be fine if it weren't for the 33% reduction in damage at the same time. Also, I prestiged twice in BLOPS 2 and I now hate CoD.

P.S. I said try the swarms against the current Falchion. I meant Vayu. If HAVs with hardeners do last longer (some others have claimed that after stacking, they live LONGER than current HAVs), then a Vayu -> Madrugar comparison could be more accurate. It slipped my mind at the time that they were being removed, but the Madrugar stays. I know, I know. The whole concept of the OP is negated by using the word "Falchion/Vayu" instead of "Gunnlogi/Madrugar."

Again, reps are going to be passive, not active. We'll be less able to survive high-alpha damage when the pass comes. Does your brain function properly?

How often do the repair units repair? I couldn't find an answer. It seems to be the same as dropsuit passive repair. In this case, the best armor repair unit repairs 140 armor a second. The best active one repairs at 414 repair every 3 seconds. Passive would be 420 in three seconds. This doesn't seem balanced, though, so maybe it doesn't work that way. Also, maybe my brain doesn't "work." Maybe yours doesn't. Petty.

You're right. CCP should just post all the stats of the HAVs and Swarm Launcher changes and no one should say anything negative about them. We should all just wait until they are in front of our faces months from now, without any prior speculation.

How many other stealth tweaks, fixes, nerfs and buffs have they given us? Do you not recall how many of us angrily posted threads (rightfully so) that the powergrid skill had been stealth nerfed into the ground?

Is your point that we should be grateful for a forewarning or that I should stop QQing because you've got plenty to QQ about, too?

My point is simply that PRO launchers will be doing STD damage. That's a fact, unless they make them fire a different amount of missiles, which was not stated. From what I've seen of vehicles, the nerf will prevent PRO Swarms from tearing every HAV a new hole while simultaneously making anything below utter garbage. This may all be wrong, of course. I'll feel free to QQ all I want. There's no need for you to participate by QQing about QQers because you don't like me stating facts and speculating what I think that the effects of said facts might be.

Swarms are being nerfed commensurate to how tanks are being nerfed. If they kept AV stats as is when the pass comes, do you really think anybody would tank anymore? But then again, that's your goal, isn't it? To make vehicles so weak and AV so totally OP that nobody will drive a tank ever again?

Oh, boy, assumptions. I love those. No, I want vehicles to be more prevalent, not less, while also being balanced. Proto AV was OP and needed a nerf. Lower tiers were not, unless you were running several proto damage mods with proficiency. This was mostly due to the missile amount curve, rather than a damage curve. Of course, the lower tiers weren't bad against some vehicle types. This nerf affects all tiers, so that all we essentially have is STD, worse STD and even worse STD. Maybe this is in line with the vehicle changes and maybe you've thought it through better than I have. I'll admit it. I could be completely wrong.

Also, the proto to standard AV equivalency statement was to show the severity of the change, since 33% isn't very easy to relate to. It's not saying that proto AV is perfectly fine and AV to vehicle balance is all sugar and lolipops.

HAVs are getting a big buff to hardeners. I did the math when the stats were released, and a hardened Madrugar should live about as long as the one we have now with the standard hardener(s) + repair unit + plates with nitrous/heat sink/scanner. Double hardeners might make them ridiculously hard to kill, I can't remember much about the total health after resistance for that, though. Shield HAVs get a 60% reduction in damage when their hardeners go up, after the changes. Armor HAVs get a 40% reduction. They might be frail enough when not hardened to kill before they can get away but a good HAV has a ring of infantry around it. Meanwhile, you've got a swarm launcher that kills squat. So, good luck following those HAVs that decide to boost around a corner and recall, or cooldown and repair.

You can use commando suits and PRO sidearms. You can use 3 forge guns up high so they're equally devastating against both infantry and vehicles.

Why must pilots always figure things out for infantry?

Just so people understand the severity of the nerf, after 1.6 proto swarms will deal the same damage as current standard swarms, with a 55% range reduction. Hardened HAVs have around the same TTK as they do now, so the comparison should be accurate, even after vehicle changes.

Find a Falchion and take out your standard swarms. This is how using top tier swarms will feel in the future, but with lower range. You're welcome.

Yes, sorry, it looks like they'll be coming in 1.7. I'll try to be less haphazard in the future. The Vehicle Changes thread says "after 1.6" and the blog says 1.7. Maybe I thought it said "in 1.6." I can't even remember if the proposed vehicle changes were going to originally launch in 1.6, but maybe that's why that came to my mind first.

Did you just try to counter the 1 v 6 argument with use lolcommando suits? Sidearms against ARs with a 1-40+ meter optimal? Light and Medium Frames can use Forge Guns now, (completely irrelevant to swarm launchers)? You actually expect people to take you seriously?