Look at it from both sides, objectively, without selfishness. You can actually learn a lot on this forum, not just about the game but humans in general...

The argument is not that a good scout player can't do well in a battle. The problem is that when you do make all things equal a player of the same level of skill in a different suit would always do better than a scout. Scout is not good at anything besides being the hard mode.

Yeah, I gather its hard... but so what? Every game has that "hard mode" whether it be a Game like GTA5 that you select which difficulty you want to play on, or you play Black Ops 2 and use the KSG, or use the Plasma Cannon or SCR in DUST. You choose to play the hard mode, so why complain when you lose?
Scouts aren't broken, their playerbase (which has already proven themselves more than adequate at the game) just wants more.
I know WHAT they want in terms of fixes. I know HOW they want the fixes to work and be implemented. But WHY?

Greed like that is what destroys playerbases. And with only 5000 DUST-ers, they aren't that far from destroying themselves... if CCP doesn't do it first. There has been argument for every weapon, setup, and whatever else in this game that has been asked to get nerfed or buffed- it never stops! BALANCE IS IMPOSSIBLE and always will be. Something has to be cast out and labeled as hard. It comes down to one side wanting more for themselves to have some sort of advantage over another and not want to play on hard.

Players don't like hard. DUST players hate hard. As soon as something gets hard, they cry for re-work. They Protostomp to avoid hard. They exploit every advantage to avoid hard. Nobody likes to chose hard. But for the few that do, remember its a CHOICE. But to sit on here as proclaimed masters of hard and yet ask for more???

That's like Michael Jordan (Kobe Bryant and Lebron James for you kids) asking his shoes be lighter so he jump higher, and the hoop lowers 1m every time he has possession of the ball... He already stands out as the best among the best, but its just never going to be good enough... he wants to keep tweeking a few micro improvements out of the game strictly for himself.

Which would you rather run

A 300 HP scout

or

A 700 HP Logi that is better at everything a scout does and more

Both are around the same price

See that big long post you quoted that I wrote? see the part about choice? see the part that Scout is choice? No you probably missed it, because like a lot of people on this board you skimmed through and decided to respond to one part of the post and ignore the rest, because it contradicted whatever it was that you wanted to say...

In this case, the part I wrote about Scouts being hard and that they were a choice. the fact that you respond with a post that is giving me choice, I'll assume you didn't read the post.

So what would you choose?

An Gallente Assault with Brick and Damge Stacks, 800 HP with an AR

or

An Amarr Sentinel with with damage mods and shields, 800 HP with an AR

Remember we got only one equipment and i like the idea about the scouting the enemy but most players don't use a mic and that is too risky just to tell the squad where they are. Remember galante only got a few low slots for either speed or stealth and minmatar is kinda assault-ish due to shield but galante scout is faster and better at stealth so i'm not sure why people are going minmatar scout.

PS: You'd know what we feel if you had scout.

See that big long post you quoted that I wrote? see the part about choice? see the part that Scout is choice? No you probably missed it, because like a lot of people on this board you skimmed through and decided to respond to one part of the post and ignore the rest, because it contradicted whatever it was that you wanted to say...

In this case, the part I wrote about Scouts being hard and that they were a choice. the fact that you respond with a post that is giving me choice, I'll assume you didn't read the post.

So what would you choose?

An Gallente Assault with Brick and Damge Stacks, 800 HP with an AR

or

An Amarr Sentinel with with damage mods and shields, 800 HP with an AR

I have missed the majority of the thread but from this page alone, your constructs are all screwed up

what prevents me from using that excuse on anything UP or OP? Why should have flaylocks been nerfed? Or the HMG for that matter? Or Vehicles? Why was the laser rifle buffed back up again?

Could I not just use the excuse that the other tasks were hard / easy mode?

What separates OP/UP imbalances from your arbitrary acceptability of hard/easy mode?

I'd love to hear the answer to this one

umm i went around and knife an entire squad in the back and i wasnt "scouting". umm does that mean im doing it wrong or do i just "suck"?

See that big long post you quoted that I wrote? see the part about choice? see the part that Scout is choice? No you probably missed it, because like a lot of people on this board you skimmed through and decided to respond to one part of the post and ignore the rest, because it contradicted whatever it was that you wanted to say...

In this case, the part I wrote about Scouts being hard and that they were a choice. the fact that you respond with a post that is giving me choice, I'll assume you didn't read the post.

So what would you choose?

An Gallente Assault with Brick and Damge Stacks, 800 HP with an AR

or

An Amarr Sentinel with with damage mods and shields, 800 HP with an AR

The term UP doesn't apply to Scouts, because Shotty has a nice list of really good players that obviously prove that Scouts aren't the case for being UP.

So, Scouts are hard mode. Always were.

What separates OP/UP imbalances from your arbitrary acceptability of hard/easy mode?

OP- means it has no counters or balance against it. NOT something very effective but still with counters.
UP- means it can't be used in the game towards a positive outcome. NOT something people can still win matches with.

SHOOTER BALANCE IS IMPOSSIBLE, no game has ever done it. No game can ever do it. Eventually things are in the game that are hard. Some are easy. You choose what you want to do, mostly for the sake of bragging rights.

Why should have flaylocks been nerfed? Or the HMG for that matter? Or Vehicles? Why was the laser rifle buffed back up again? Could I not just use the excuse that the other tasks were hard / easy mode?

I took the liberty of pulling out the fluff and applying the material to the original questions, but since they were not really addressed in any concise manner, well go through a set of inferences with your paragraphs.

Because killing is a secondary function for a Scout?

Since you like to break things down, so you don't have to reference the information as a whole, I'll break it down for you for you too; you seem to understand it. Make sure you catch the graph at the end

1. You didn't prove that Scouts were UP, by my definition, and anyone's definition. You HAVE proven that they can be less effective. Less effective is not the same thing as UP. By the measuring standards in this game (WP and ISK Profit aka- make money, f*ck b*tches) Scouts have proven that they are capable of doing this well as other dropsuit setups. How ever they achieve that success is up to them.

2. Eventually, the balancing will have to stop, because achieving it is impossible(especially in a game like DUST where you strive to obtain and advantage). Eventually things have to be categorized as Easy/Medium/Hard if you want to compare them respectively to each other. Trying to give scouts equality (move them the to the Medium/Easy mode category) but keeping DUST the same overall format (Make money, f*ck b*tches) will only end in failure. Something has to stay in hard mode. Scouts seem to be that poor redheaded step-child because of the landscape of the game.

3. I made a nice chart using a fine graphics programs. Basically, all the content in the game should (or come comes close to trying) break down on the chart as far as difficulty. If it's all the way to the left, its UP, if its all the way to the right its OP. Scouts are in the 2.5%. They are close to UP, but still lands on the chart of of how effective and difficult it is to use. BooYa!

If something lands between Hard-Easy, it is not in need of rework. FPS players have to accept this, and have a model to base this on... otherwise factions get greedy or other factions want those factions to get nerfed...
I'm not calling for a Scout nerf, or buff. I'm saying that they are not UP, nor OP. They are hard, but still playable the way they are in this game.
Same argument is said for the Plasma Cannon, SCR, Shotgun, MLT/STD HAVs. Truth be told, the Flaylock and Md were nerfed because people cried to much. The weapons were fine, but people wanted them nerfed on principle. (Flaylocks were secondaries, thus should outdo Primaries... MDs don't need aim, thus they shouldn't out do SCRs and ARs)

1. You didn't prove that Scouts were UP, by my definition, and anyone's definition. You HAVE proven that they can be less effective. Less effective is not the same thing as UP. By the measuring standards in this game (WP and ISK Profit aka- make money, f*ck b*tches) Scouts have proven that they are capable of doing this well as other dropsuit setups. How ever they achieve that success is up to them.

2. Eventually, the balancing will have to stop, because achieving it is impossible(especially in a game like DUST where you strive to obtain and advantage). Eventually things have to be categorized as Easy/Medium/Hard if you want to compare them respectively to each other. Trying to give scouts equality (move them the to the Medium/Easy mode category) but keeping DUST the same overall format (Make money, f*ck b*tches) will only end in failure. Something has to stay in hard mode. Scouts seem to be that poor redheaded step-child because of the landscape of the game.

BooYa![/url]

1. if the scout suit is less effective, it is under performing against other suits that can do it's role a lot better. your just using "if he can kill in a scout suit, it's must not be UP" and think you are entitled to be right based on some people who learned some tactics, which can be done be any suit. if you want to measure WP and isk payout (which doesn't make any sense), then you must first use numbers from each game instead of just 1, as the numbers constantly change. don't use public matches either as they can skew your numbers since people aren't as good in pub matches.

2. if balance is impossible to achieve, why make the game at all if it's doomed to fail from the start? this game can achieve balance if done right, but everything needs to be looked over to see what is being used and how much. this game is only easy/hard as you want to make it, not by which suit you choose. don't confuse easy/hard with types of suits used, but instead with how you go about your tactics, since that is what determines how you do.

3. how did you make that chart? what numbers did you use? how did you get all the info for it?

How is you able to survive a full frontal HMG blasting you; me being bad at the game? I lit you up, and could barely even see you through my hitmarkers. But you were able to survive long enough to blast through 1200 HP....

dude sorry, the evidence doesn't lie. You're argument of saying Scouts can just be dublicated by Medium Frames is void.
Because if that was the case, then why were you using a Scout in the first place? Why does anyone use a Scout?
So far, I've never heard an actual reason/ Apparently Scouts just like to purposely gimp themselves in this game, then complain about not having enough.

So I read a bit of that mess an what I want to know is, if you think their hardly playable an hard mod but not u.p how does that even measure up?
If 2.5% of the entire player base are scouts how many are scouts that are entirely new since uprising?
How many new people tried it an said fukthis I'm not staying this class any longer or putting more points in it an how many are scouts because their locked in a sp sink an how many would quit being scouts if given a respec tomorrow, an how many older scouts own other suits an run them more than scouts, or are scout tankers?

See your going off shotty's chart, an that's your first mistake.
The registry asks for honesty.
For only 50% of your time to be a scout.
I played scout since jan only, it's taken from then to now to get over 1 on my kd an over 10 000 kills.
Does that mean I suck?
No it means I use a scout ONLY, an not a assault rifle or sniper or tank.
You think djinn got 50000 sg kills?
Give your head a shake

Older scouts that like rifles an been here since closed beta an are extremely good players in any game are our top.
I gaurunte if I used a rifle the whole time I'd have double what I have.
So because I like sg an nk I have to put up with a broken game?
If your a assault scout it's not the same as a nk or sg assassin .

Why
Because look at the CPU pg difference in those weapons also compare armor to biotics.
The scout should accomodate it's many play styles not AR514
My knives use as much as a proto gun, wtf?
Asking for more difference between frame with speed an scanning an CPU pg an a equip slot isn't much to ask when we need survalence equipment .
But wasting my time with you is like expecting every human being able to understand logic

This forum has a few themes right now: Nerf the AR, Patch want/needs, and Scout suit modifications.

I see that people who are using Scouts are not happy with what little they have to work with. They want more equipment slots, or more CPU, and more speed, etc...

I thought the purpose of light frames was to be stripped down suits that purposely can perform LESS simultaneous functions on the battlefield. They are like the opposites of Logi or Heavies I thought?

Scouts have speed and stealth, which means they run around the back of the enemy and plant Uplinks to ambush the enemy, sneak to an objective and begin hacking it, scan the holy sh*t out of everything, and maybe get a few kills then run for cover again. Or, they actually scout the enemy and use a mic to tell their team where they are at.

I know some people use them for shotguns, because you need every advantage you can get with those broken guns, and the fact that hitboxes sway terribly in this game makes Scouts very effective when they are dancing all around you. Bullets shoot right through them like they are ghosts; but they die instantly if they are 10 metes away from you... I can't tell you how many times I catch a Scout in the open, in the thick of the battlefield running head on right at me, and all I can think is "really dude, props for trying, but you're dead... NOW" I shoot, they die. sometimes I even have o back up 5 steps. This is an example of a scout playing foolishly to there equipment function.


So, Why are Scout users asking for more, when their frames are specifically made to do less? This doesn't mean they aren't effective, they just have different roles. Sure, Heavies would like to have equipment slots so they can stand on Triages, Logis would like sidearms AND more slots, mediums would like to have Scout speed without sacrificing health and stealth themselves. I personally would like more to my Caldari Medium frames(and yes I use the SCR w/ Caldari because I'm stubborn) but that's all in the name of balance.

I never used an actual Scout frame before; only Basic Light. I do fine with them of what can be expected. I hack more objectives, and I get more support WP. In fact, I'll leave with this example:

The only time I ever played General John Ripper and Levi Thunder our team was destined to get stomped. I was having a terrible day with connections, so I was only using free fits that day. One of them was The Gallente Hunter Fit, a stealth(ish) Light frame. As expected, my team was getting destroyed in a hurry, we went down by 15 clones in the first 2 minutes. So, I put on my light frame, and ran all the way around the map, and climbed up a wall and planted Uplinks right behind them. So ever death from there on, they got ambushed. I then ran all the way around them again and did it to them a 2nd, and 3rd time.
I finished 2/4 but had 1200+ in Uplinks because I placed them in detrimental positions for the enemy. I called in my HAV (and actually left it there for my team to drive) and before you know it, we won the match. All thanks to ME! All thanks to using a Light Suit as intended.

Fortunately for you I actually address the foundation of your arguments, unfortunately for me you completely ignore mine, just want to point that out



A) My definition holds up, yours does not, which I actually explain why, you can provide reasons why mine does not hold if you disagree.

B) You counter point was literally "no no no", saying it isn't true doesn't make it so.

C) I actually did not prove anything because neither I nor you have the raw data. CCP who actually owns all the data has confirmed and admitted to scouts under performing



The game is not even near being done, and the scouts are hardly even fleshed out, we don't even have all the variants yet you think the breaks should be applied? Your only motive for putting any brakes on changes is to prevent the scout from growing as a whole, there really is no rational thought behind it when the game is still early in its infancy.



This actually made me smile, because this shows that you don't know anything about statistics, and your are arguing with someone who's career evolves around stats.

http://www.regentsprep.org/regents/math/algtrig/ATS2/NormalLesson.htm
This one should help you out too,

Hard mode would be on the lower end of 1 standard deviation to about 1.5 standard deviations from what is normal.

Anything that goes past 1.5 standard deviations, let alone past 2 standard deviations is beyond broken and unusable, While neither of us have the raw data, I don't think scouts are THAT broken be be ranked as 2 standard deviations down as what you have shown in the graph, which also bring up the point that I don't think you really even know the significance of the chart you have displayed, because it entirely shuts your own points down. Based on your graph, the scout effectiveness is literally less than 5% on that chart. If we were to turn this into sniper rifles, that is like a sniper rifle that does 100 damage and another that does 5 damage........

I'll leave you on that thought

Because QQ'ers will QQ. I know plenty of scouts that totally dominate in the Sneaky Bastard role that the suits are made for, I myself almost always dominate in pub and fw when I pull out my militia scout suit. I have a hacking module, militia ar (oh the sheer greifing of it :) ), toxin smg (nicknamed faceshredder) some re's and av 'nades. With that setup I can sneak around, hack like crazy, mow down enemies from the side and behind, take and cover objectives, and, possibly best of all, if I am sneaky enough to creep up on a slow or camping tank I can take even a proto tank down with the combo of my re's and av'nades.
All that combined with the fact that I make nothing but profit even in my worst games makes it my favourite suit ingame other ban my proto sniper. If my memory serves me right I can buy 20-30 suits for the price of a single one of my proto sniper fits.
Used correctly the scout suit is a terror to the enemy, but I think this is true for every suit, the problems arise when people try to force a role on a suit that it shouldn't perform.

A) My definition holds up, yours does not, which I actually explain why, you can provide reasons why mine does not hold if you disagree.

B) You counter point was literally "no no no", saying it isn't true doesn't make it so.

C) I actually did not prove anything because neither I nor you have the raw data. CCP who actually owns all the data has confirmed and admitted to scouts under performing



The game is not even near being done, and the scouts are hardly even fleshed out, we don't even have all the variants yet you think the breaks should be applied? Your only motive for putting any brakes on changes is to prevent the scout from growing as a whole, there really is no rational thought behind it when the game is still early in its infancy.



This actually made me smile, because this shows that you don't know anything about statistics, and your are arguing with someone who's career evolves around stats.

http://www.regentsprep.org/regents/math/algtrig/ATS2/NormalLesson.htm
This one should help you out too,

Hard mode would be on the lower end of 1 standard deviation to about 1.5 standard deviations from what is normal.

Anything that goes past 1.5 standard deviations, let alone past 2 standard deviations is beyond broken and unusable, While neither of us have the raw data, I don't think scouts are THAT broken be be ranked as 2 standard deviations down as what you have shown in the graph, which also bring up the point that I don't think you really even know the significance of the chart you have displayed, because it entirely shuts your own points down. Based on your graph, the scout effectiveness is literally less than 5% on that chart. If we were to turn this into sniper rifles, that is like a sniper rifle that does 100 damage and another that does 5 damage........

I'll leave you on that thought

hmmm missed, buuuut the idea of Scouts have their own gear sound fair to you? Then maybe Heavies can get there own gear to?
For example: Kin-Cats that can only be used by Scouts and can't be put on Medium and Light Frames. Kind of like the Armor mods that are made for scouts.

[quote=8213][quote=Oswald Rehnquist]

you also fail to bring in your own reasons why a scout doesn't need to be buffed, but instead use posts from others to try and back up your claim. maybe you are the one who missed points and not them. i play a scout suit a lot to learn different tactics and because i love the play style of it. i don't like that my role can be done by everything else much more effectively, in turn making my role as a scout ineffective. you tell me good sir, what is the role of a scout? follow up question for when you answer, can other suits do a scout's role effectively?

Missed?
That's all you've been writing, your coming off a little too arrogant , biased an unable to be reasoned with