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8213 Grade No.2 467	Posted - 2013.10.19 18:37:00 - [1] - Quote This forum has a few themes right now: Nerf the AR, Patch want/needs, and Scout suit modifications. I see that people who are using Scouts are not happy with what little they have to work with. They want more equipment slots, or more CPU, and more speed, etc... I thought the purpose of light frames was to be stripped down suits that purposely can perform LESS simultaneous functions on the battlefield. They are like the opposites of Logi or Heavies I thought? Scouts have speed and stealth, which means they run around the back of the enemy and plant Uplinks to ambush the enemy, sneak to an objective and begin hacking it, scan the holy sht out of everything, and maybe get a few kills then run for cover again. Or, they actually scout* the enemy and use a mic to tell their team where they are at. I know some people use them for shotguns, because you need every advantage you can get with those broken guns, and the fact that hitboxes sway terribly in this game makes Scouts very effective when they are dancing all around you. Bullets shoot right through them like they are ghosts; but they die instantly if they are 10 metes away from you... I can't tell you how many times I catch a Scout in the open, in the thick of the battlefield running head on right at me, and all I can think is "really dude, props for trying, but you're dead... NOW" I shoot, they die. sometimes I even have o back up 5 steps. This is an example of a scout playing foolishly to there equipment function. So, Why are Scout users asking for more, when their frames are specifically made to do less? This doesn't mean they aren't effective, they just have different roles. Sure, Heavies would like to have equipment slots so they can stand on Triages, Logis would like sidearms AND more slots, mediums would like to have Scout speed without sacrificing health and stealth themselves. I personally would like more to my Caldari Medium frames(and yes I use the SCR w/ Caldari because I'm stubborn) but that's all in the name of balance. I never used an actual Scout frame before; only Basic Light. I do fine with them of what can be expected. I hack more objectives, and I get more support WP. In fact, I'll leave with this example: The only time I ever played General John Ripper and Levi Thunder our team was destined to get stomped. I was having a terrible day with connections, so I was only using free fits that day. One of them was The Gallente Hunter Fit, a stealth(ish) Light frame. As expected, my team was getting destroyed in a hurry, we went down by 15 clones in the first 2 minutes. So, I put on my light frame, and ran all the way around the map, and climbed up a wall and planted Uplinks right behind them. So ever death from there on, they got ambushed. I then ran all the way around them again and did it to them a 2nd, and 3rd time. I finished 2/4 but had 1200+ in Uplinks because I placed them in detrimental positions for the enemy. I called in my HAV (and actually left it there for my team to drive) and before you know it, we won the match. All thanks to ME! All thanks to using a Light Suit as intended.
8213 Grade No.2 467	Posted - 2013.10.19 18:47:00 - [2] - Quote knight of 6 wrote: depending on the scout you talk to you'll hear different things. for me it's that every task we can perform another suit can do better and with more hitpoints, also we can't really fit equipment on our suit without losing valuable tank. does that help? I understand Read the example at the end of my post. I used equipment, and had nothing to tank onto my HP. I was paper mache'. That's why I had to take the very long way around the enemy so I wasn't spotted, because I had zero chance in a fire fight. My role wasn't to get kills. That's why we have Assaults and Scouts. One is made to kill, the other is made to... scout
8213 Grade No.2 467	Posted - 2013.10.19 19:17:00 - [3] - Quote knight of 6 wrote: 8213 wrote: knight of 6 wrote: depending on the scout you talk to you'll hear different things. for me it's that every task we can perform another suit can do better and with more hitpoints, also we can't really fit equipment on our suit without losing valuable tank. does that help? I understand Read the example at the end of my post. I used equipment, and had nothing to tank onto my HP. I was paper mache'. That's why I had to take the very long way around the enemy so I wasn't spotted, because I had zero chance in a fire fight. My role wasn't to get kills. That's why we have Assaults and Scouts. One is made to kill, the other is made to... scout I read it, why have a scout if literally everything is better than it? congrats you could have used a logi and done the same thing but with better ehp? a few damps and an uplink and maybe a kinkat and you have a scout suit with twice the ehp that's still fast and stealthy. why have a scout? why? you can fill the same role with another suit that has better hitpoints and damage so why have a scout for it? also I'm gonna assume the underlined bit is a typo? might wanna fix it before you void your argument completely. Then I really have to ask, why are you using Scouts at all then? Why are you purposely gimping yourself? I was pointing out the name of the two different suits, that have 2 different roles. Assaults are made to kill, and not a whole lot more, they are made to be on the front lines. Scouts aren't made to do that. They are made to be behind the enemy lines, doing scout things. Sneaky things. Ambush tactics. Assaults assault. Scouts scout.
8213 Grade No.2 467	Posted - 2013.10.19 19:58:00 - [4] - Quote Shotty GoBang wrote: Johnny Guilt wrote: Scout suits are fine for what they do within the hit/run or stealth playstyles and only those styles and nothing else. Scenario A: Newbro AR-514 spots Proto Scout. Guns him down in an instant, as the Scout made a mistake. Scenario B: Newbro Scout sneaks up behind Proto AR-514. Stabs or Shotguns his mark in the back, but dies instantly when mark turns around. Conclusion: Perfectly planned and executed assassinations often fail. Hit-and-run / stealth playstyle is imbalanced. Question: Why is this OK? Because killing is a secondary function for a Scout?
8213 Grade No.2 468	Posted - 2013.10.20 00:28:00 - [5] - Quote AfroSunshineY Consequence wrote: Look bud, every suit gives up something to get something. Heavies are tanked but slow. Scouts are slight but fast. Medium Suits are in the middle - at least in theory. Don't get it confused. Some of the best players on Dust are scouts - but it's not because of some advantge conferred on them by their suits. They're just REALLY good players. It makes no sense to me that a medium suit can have 5x my eHP but can run almost as fast as I can. scouts have no real advantage. you want to talk about scanning? Sure - we start out at the same 10m that everyone else does, but to get it higher we have to give up low slots, which you guessed it, we need for speed. I'm sick of people who don't play the role saying "scouts can have a scan radius of 99m" when it is so clear that the only way to get that is first to be proto gallente with scan skills maxxed out and second to give up ALL 4 low slots ---- no room for speed, which defeats the entire purpose of the suit. Basically, people need to shut up. The way the AR is right now, it's impossible to play as a scout. People keep saying "Stealth Stealth Stealth", - well num nuts, I would be stealthy but there is no mechanism for stealth in this game. Nobody relies on their passive scanning because it's only 10 m. The only way I can sneak up on someone is if I'm lucky and they don't turn around and AR **** And lastly, just because you had one decent game as a scout doesn't give you cause to come on here and do the whole "well I'm awesome even with a scout suit" humble brag. keep playing as a scout. Nothing you put up there couldn't have been done by another suit (looking at you medium suits). You were just lucky you weren't facing direct combat from formidable foes because they would - I repeat - WOULD have stomped you. Also, you called in a HAV - just because you were in a light suit does not mean you were scouting. That was seriously just a bunch of babble... and you completely lost my attention when you said I wasn't playing formidable opponents...
8213 Grade No.2 473	Posted - 2013.10.20 09:44:00 - [6] - Quote DJINN Marauder wrote: The reason scouts want a buff is because medium suits do the "scout" job better than scouts.. I mean if that's not enough to warrant a buff I don't know what is lol. If the smg did the AR job better as in more range more dmg more everything.... Wouldn't you want the AR to be buffed? Or smg Nerfed? Really? Because I just got out of a game against you, where your Scout walked right through my HMG and killed me from 3m away. You had 400 armor, and you were fast as hell(2x faster than your medium counter parts), and had plenty of killing power obviously... Seems a whole heck of a lot more than any Medium Frame can do in this game... Your argument is bullsh*t and void.
8213 Grade No.2 475	Posted - 2013.10.20 10:04:00 - [7] - Quote DJINN Marauder wrote: 8213 wrote: DJINN Marauder wrote: The reason scouts want a buff is because medium suits do the "scout" job better than scouts.. I mean if that's not enough to warrant a buff I don't know what is lol. If the smg did the AR job better as in more range more dmg more everything.... Wouldn't you want the AR to be buffed? Or smg Nerfed? Really? Because I just got out of a game against you, where your Scout walked right through my HMG and killed me from 3m away. You had 400 armor, and you were fast as hell(2x faster than your medium counter parts), and had plenty of killing power obviously... Seems a whole heck of a lot more than any Medium Frame can do in this game... Your argument is bullsh*t and void. No you're just bad at the game. Sure I went 35-2 but that's because my squad had a scanner so I knew where everyone was at. My scout had 98 shield 404 armor with a 7.5 sprint speed... 500 total hp is NOTHING compared to what an assault or logi can get. Hell my corp mate runs 500 shield alone with a proto shotgun AND is faster than me. He runs proto cal assault. Trust me bro.. If I went assault shotgun instead of scout shotgun.... I would be doing sooo much better. How is you able to survive a full frontal HMG blasting you; me being bad at the game? I lit you up, and could barely even see you through my hitmarkers. But you were able to survive long enough to blast through 1200 HP.... dude sorry, the evidence doesn't lie. You're argument of saying Scouts can just be dublicated by Medium Frames is void. Because if that was the case, then why were you using a Scout in the first place? Why does anyone use a Scout? So far, I've never heard an actual reason/ Apparently Scouts just like to purposely gimp themselves in this game, then complain about not having enough.
8213 Grade No.2 475	Posted - 2013.10.20 10:31:00 - [8] - Quote DJINN Marauder wrote: 8213 wrote: DJINN Marauder wrote: 8213 wrote: DJINN Marauder wrote: The reason scouts want a buff is because medium suits do the "scout" job better than scouts.. I mean if that's not enough to warrant a buff I don't know what is lol. If the smg did the AR job better as in more range more dmg more everything.... Wouldn't you want the AR to be buffed? Or smg Nerfed? Really? Because I just got out of a game against you, where your Scout walked right through my HMG and killed me from 3m away. You had 400 armor, and you were fast as hell(2x faster than your medium counter parts), and had plenty of killing power obviously... Seems a whole heck of a lot more than any Medium Frame can do in this game... Your argument is bullsh*t and void. No you're just bad at the game. Sure I went 35-2 but that's because my squad had a scanner so I knew where everyone was at. My scout had 98 shield 404 armor with a 7.5 sprint speed... 500 total hp is NOTHING compared to what an assault or logi can get. Hell my corp mate runs 500 shield alone with a proto shotgun AND is faster than me. He runs proto cal assault. Trust me bro.. If I went assault shotgun instead of scout shotgun.... I would be doing sooo much better. How is you able to survive a full frontal HMG blasting you; me being bad at the game? I lit you up, and could barely even see you through my hitmarkers. But you were able to survive long enough to blast through 1200 HP.... dude sorry, the evidence doesn't lie. You're argument of saying Scouts can just be dublicated by Medium Frames is void. Because if that was the case, then why were you using a Scout in the first place? Why does anyone use a Scout? So far, I've never heard an actual reason/ Apparently Scouts just like to purposely gimp themselves in this game, then complain about not having enough. The reason we run scout is for the speed tank. Back when uprising just came out, speed tanking was a beauty with scouts. Unfortunately now with AA and who knows what else, it's made speed tanking completely useless. Now it's all about hp tank. Let me ask you. Does a 500 armor scout even count as a scout? Because that's the best fit so far for scouts. Straight up hp is the best for SCOUTS. Is that ok? Yes, it's fine. You still get your Scout Bonuses, and you still have speed without having to use Kin-Cats. I was watched you that game, and you were faster than everyone else by far. I'm sorry, but saying a medium can do that is simply a lie. A medium nneds to use a slot for a Kin-Cat, you don't. And you get a much smaller hit box. Chormosone hasn't been around for looooong while, and Uprising has been here for half a year... you say Scouts suck now, but still use them, and perform well in them? Doesn't answer WHY you're using this supposed gimped setup now. You told me why you used them back then, but why are you gimping yourself now? According to you, if you had a Medium Frame you would have done even better playing that same style. You would have been magically faster, had more HP, and more power.... thanks for gimping yourself on purpose, buddy ole pal. If AA was a factor than my HMG should have leveled you as intended... oh wait, if the it works in your favor its you being a beast and the other sucking, but if it doesn't work in your favor then the game needs to be fixed, right? Because you should never die? Do your deaths not count? Sorry, none of your reasons have any merit. You struck out 3x in this thread. Some people actually posted reasonable things that they wanted. They didn't come up with the coded "I want more, I'm selfish, I shouldn't die ever in this game because my ego thinks I'm to good for it" gibberish that you have.
8213 Grade No.2 475	Posted - 2013.10.20 10:57:00 - [9] - Quote BARDAS wrote: 8213 wrote: Yes, it's fine. You still get your Scout Bonuses, and you still have speed without having to use Kin-Cats. I was watched you that game, and you were faster than everyone else by far. I'm sorry, but saying a medium can do that is simply a lie. A medium nneds to use a slot for a Kin-Cat, you don't. And you get a much smaller hit box. Chormosone hasn't been around for looooong while, and Uprising has been here for half a year... you say Scouts suck now, but still use them, and perform well in them? Doesn't answer WHY you're using this supposed gimped setup now. You told me why you used them back then, but why are you gimping yourself now? According to you, if you had a Medium Frame you would have done even better playing that same style. You would have been magically faster, had more HP, and more power.... thanks for gimping yourself on purpose, buddy ole pal. If AA was a factor than my HMG should have leveled you as intended... oh wait, if the it works in your favor its you being a beast and the other sucking, but if it doesn't work in your favor then the game needs to be fixed, right? Because you should never die? Do your deaths not count? Sorry, none of your reasons have any merit. You struck out 3x in this thread. Some people actually posted reasonable things that they wanted. They didn't come up with the coded "I want more, I'm selfish, I shouldn't die ever in this game because my ego thinks I'm to good for it" gibberish that you have. Using DJINN Marauder as the bar for the majority of Scouts is stupid. He is the equivalent of the Scout 1%. Last time I checked he was the #1 ranked Scout on the killboard. The majority of us don't do nearly as well as he does on the battlefield. He is right also. Medium suits are better suited to "scout" roles at this point in time. Wow, so not only is he considered one of the elite players in the game as it is, he's the most elite On Shotty GoBang's board... so that makes him the best DUST 514 player playing today, right? So, the best DUST 514 player happens to run Scout, for no apparent reason than to give the rest of us noobs a chance at the game. What a swell guy he is. What swell people ALL Scouts are... still, can anyone tell me WHY Scouts are being used if they need so much work? I shot shot a Caldari scout today with a charged SCR shot, he still was able to survive, and dance around me and nail me dead with his Shotgun. Radar from Outer.Heaven I believe it was. What do you suppose is harder? Him jumoing around me spamming a shotgun, or me landing a Charged SCR shot on him? Did the game reward me for my superior skill? Nope, because his fragile Scout suit was able to survive it. Simple as this. If mediums can do the job of a Scout better, than nobody would be using a Scout...
8213 Grade No.2 475	Posted - 2013.10.20 11:22:00 - [10] - Quote BARDAS wrote: 8213 wrote: BARDAS wrote: 8213 wrote: Yes, it's fine. You still get your Scout Bonuses, and you still have speed without having to use Kin-Cats. I was watched you that game, and you were faster than everyone else by far. I'm sorry, but saying a medium can do that is simply a lie. A medium nneds to use a slot for a Kin-Cat, you don't. And you get a much smaller hit box. Chormosone hasn't been around for looooong while, and Uprising has been here for half a year... you say Scouts suck now, but still use them, and perform well in them? Doesn't answer WHY you're using this supposed gimped setup now. You told me why you used them back then, but why are you gimping yourself now? According to you, if you had a Medium Frame you would have done even better playing that same style. You would have been magically faster, had more HP, and more power.... thanks for gimping yourself on purpose, buddy ole pal. If AA was a factor than my HMG should have leveled you as intended... oh wait, if the it works in your favor its you being a beast and the other sucking, but if it doesn't work in your favor then the game needs to be fixed, right? Because you should never die? Do your deaths not count? Sorry, none of your reasons have any merit. You struck out 3x in this thread. Some people actually posted reasonable things that they wanted. They didn't come up with the coded "I want more, I'm selfish, I shouldn't die ever in this game because my ego thinks I'm to good for it" gibberish that you have. Using DJINN Marauder as the bar for the majority of Scouts is stupid. He is the equivalent of the Scout 1%. Last time I checked he was the #1 ranked Scout on the killboard. The majority of us don't do nearly as well as he does on the battlefield. He is right also. Medium suits are better suited to "scout" roles at this point in time. Wow, so not only is he considered one of the elite players in the game as it is, he's the most elite On Shotty GoBang's board... so that makes him the best DUST 514 player playing today, right? So, the best DUST 514 player happens to run Scout, for no apparent reason than to give the rest of us noobs a chance at the game. What a swell guy he is. What swell people ALL Scouts are... still, can anyone tell me WHY Scouts are being used if they need so much work? I shot shot a Caldari scout today with a charged SCR shot, he still was able to survive, and dance around me and nail me dead with his Shotgun. Radar from Outer.Heaven I believe it was. What do you suppose is harder? Him jumoing around me spamming a shotgun, or me landing a Charged SCR shot on him? Did the game reward me for my superior skill? Nope, because his fragile Scout suit was able to survive it. Simple as this. If mediums can do the job of a Scout better, than nobody would be using a Scout... I ain't gonna lie. You sound more butt hurt about being shotgunned to death than anything. Also, hardly anyone uses Scouts. From what I read there are only about 250 of us I think that use the suit on a regular basis? There are how many Medium Suit users? Thousands at the very least. Your entire argument is invalid as logical fallacy anyway. Causation does not imply correlation. Meaning that just because you died to a superior player who is more skilled than you and just happened to be playing as a Scout doesn't mean the suit is fine and doesn't need a buff. You're half right. I do get upset when I out play a guy but still end up on the losing end. You can't win them all. But the Scout has its Pros and Cons like everything else in this game. Its just scout users think that their suit shouldn't have any cons. They want more CPU/PG, they want more HP, they want more slots... they totally forget what they are getting into in the first place. Scouts have their advantages that no other suits can duplicate, but that's not enough for Scout users. Here's an idea. I want my Assaults buffed. I want more HP, more speed, more CPU/PG. Forget that I already have list of things I can do more superior than Logis, Scouts, Commandos, and Sentinels... I need more. Logis can do my job just as effective as me actually, so I want extra equipment slots too. Its not fair... because... well I don't have a reason, but I say its not fair. Why am I using Assault you say? Because back in Chromosome with stacked Damage Mods you were a beast. And it was by accident I went into Assault (Because some guy on here claimed him being a Scout was an accident that apparently he couldn't change until it was 4 million SP to late...). But now, since Uprising, they suck. My hitbox is to big, I only have one lousy equipment slot, I'm to slow compared to Scouts, and I don't have the HP that Heavies do. I need a slight buff... Your turn, maybe you can do what nobody else can. answer me this. If scouts are in such need of rework then why do people use them now? Why do people use this Frame that apparently has no positives to it?

8213 Grade No.2 475	Posted - 2013.10.20 11:35:00 - [11] - Quote DJINN Marauder wrote: 8213 wrote: Yes, it's fine. You still get your Scout Bonuses, and you still have speed without having to use Kin-Cats. I was watched you that game, and you were faster than everyone else by far. I'm sorry, but saying a medium can do that is simply a lie. A medium nneds to use a slot for a Kin-Cat, you don't. And you get a much smaller hit box. Chormosone hasn't been around for looooong while, and Uprising has been here for half a year... you say Scouts suck now, but still use them, and perform well in them? Doesn't answer WHY you're using this supposed gimped setup now. You told me why you used them back then, but why are you gimping yourself now? According to you, if you had a Medium Frame you would have done even better playing that same style. You would have been magically faster, had more HP, and more power.... thanks for gimping yourself on purpose, buddy ole pal. If AA was a factor than my HMG should have leveled you as intended... oh wait, if the it works in your favor its you being a beast and the other sucking, but if it doesn't work in your favor then the game needs to be fixed, right? Because you should never die? Do your deaths not count? Sorry, none of your reasons have any merit. You struck out 3x in this thread. Some people actually posted reasonable things that they wanted. They didn't come up with the coded "I want more, I'm selfish, I shouldn't die ever in this game because my ego thinks I'm to good for it" gibberish that you have. Yes a medium has to use a kincat... So what? He uses a kincat 500+ shields with a proto shotty. Bam better than my build. He's faster, more hp too. You keep saying I gimped myself and asking as to why... I'll tell you. It's because I hate using the norm. I hate using the FOTM. And I love doing well with the most underpowered things in games. I believe all people who run scouts are like this. That is why i will not stoop so low as run a medium frame. However if I got a respec... You bet damn well ill spec right into one. I do well with my scout... I will not lie. However that's ME. Very few people can pull a scout off. Even fewer in PC. Which brings me to my next point. IT WAS A PUB MATCH! Pub matches are terrible places for looking at balancing and determining what's OP and what isn't. Just because I did good in ONE pub match doesn't mean the suit is fine. Because its not. Like I've been saying.. Medium frames can do what the scout does, better. I just want at LEAST one thing it can be better at.. pssst.... remember you struck out... But P/C does show CCP what the game's biggest exploits are. Since Scouts don't seem to run amuck in P/C shows they aren't an exploit, they are just fine where they are at. Because if you go back to page one, I never said Scouts were OP, I said they were just fine where they are at. The only thing that I would consider OP about them is the swaying broken hitbox. But that's a glitch and poor software building, you have nothing to do with that. You may exploit it to do well for now, but eventually it'll get fixed(okay, who are we kidding, probably not) Alrighty, I gave you one last at bat and you came close to valid response that has weight, merit, and reinforcing argument... close. But, you still were able to survive an 200 rounds of an HMG and neutralize it. Buy since you're the best DUST player on the planet, I should be happy I went 6/5 against you're full squad. Maybe next time I won't use a Starter Fit than a Heavy, maybe I'll have to use my own Scout Build...
8213 Grade No.2 475	Posted - 2013.10.20 11:44:00 - [12] - Quote BARDAS wrote: 8213 wrote: Scouts have their advantages that no other suits can duplicate, but that's not enough for Scout users. Are we even playing the same game? I would laugh but I'm pretty sure you are serious. Please pray tell us what these mystical roles that only a Scout can perform are? 1. Speed without Kin-Cats 2. Smaller hitboxes 3. Racial Scout Bonus 4. Scout Bonus 5. More Stealth(not much, but more) 6. Stamina without Cardiac Regulators 7. Jumps higher So, I suppose the roles it would do better are: 1.Sneaking behind enemy lines (Maybe that's what its called a Scout) to plant equipment or Hack. 2. Closing range between enemies faster, making Shotguns (and other weapons) more effective too, thus providing yourself with a decent assault role, with the added defense of a smaller hitbox. 3. AV, because a Scout can chase down a HAV better, and cross terrian better because of the jumping ability. Good enough for me...
8213 Grade No.2 475	Posted - 2013.10.20 12:03:00 - [13] - Quote DJINN Marauder wrote: Exactly what can scouts do better than medium frames? Name one please. Is it dampening? Well maybe but guess what.. To hide from a proto scanner... Scouts need to run prof dampers... Which mediums can run...and hey have more slots CPU/pg and more health... But you are capable of running around the scanners better Is is speed? Nope minmitar medium is like .2-.3 slower than a scout. With alot more hp and slots. Its actually .35 faster Movement and .49 Sprint but who's using facts here anyway... Is it scouting? Nope scouts have the same scan radius as mediums lol. But you're faster so you can get closer Again you ask why people use scouts if mediums are better... It's because we're prideful. At least me anyways. I'm not gunna stoop as low as to ez mode assault suits... Not unless I get a respec. As to why? It's because I hate using the norm and the FOTM. Using the underpowered stuff has a certain shine to it. I understand this. That is why I use the SCR, that is why I play very aggressively myself, but how often do you run Scout solo? Using anything in a full proto squad doesn't have any shine to it, imo Also when did we ask for hp? So, CCP needs to buff the Scout because you're pride won't let you use anything else? I'm sure you've made a fair share of SP in this game. Where did it all go that you can't build a superior Medium Frame? And I've heard Scout users ask for everything under the Sun on this board. And I can stand back and objectively look at them and see their pros and cons. And I have never seen a reason to buff them
8213 Grade No.2 475	Posted - 2013.10.20 12:06:00 - [14] - Quote Chilled Pill wrote: There are a myriad of reasons why we chose to be scouts, probably a different one for each person. How about let's simplify it. We chose it because it was there -- it was an option. Why do people use any suit? Why did you choose whatever you chose? Before we break into the existential babble your line of questioning is heading towards, let's just leave it at that. There have been many an argument raised day in and day out from Scouts who, from frustration, could've simply chosen to spend their future SP into the medium suit. But we don't because frankly, we don't want it. You obviously, aren't preview to all the woes that plague us, and you don't have a reason to. You're not one of us. You're a 'dabbler' at best. However, many of us have spent their time gathering information, testing, collecting data -- both through metrics and qualitative in game observations. And in doing so able to construct valid arguments (and even counter arguments -- not all of us scouts agree on certain things) as to why the Scout class needs some love. So, if you're not a full fledge Scout nor haven't paid close attention to each thread raised by the Scout community through various posts containing all manner of rants, improvement ideas, raves, etc. Then feel free NOT to comment on our community's thrust into improving our chosen class. As far as 'filling you in' is concerned, you should be thankful for the level headed and honest responses some have put on here. That they even gave you the time of day. That's the kind of community they are. As far as Marauder wiping the floor with you, well, that's because he's better than you. You'll find that a lot of Scouts are. As for me, I'm more inclined to sigh, roll my eyes at you, and tell you to: "STFU, stupid." P.S. Dammit Marauder, this is precisely why we can't have nice things! Geez. Can you give examples of the problems you face as a Scout? Maybe list your build, and sight the drawbacks you see in it?
8213 Grade No.2 475	Posted - 2013.10.20 12:10:00 - [15] - Quote BARDAS wrote: 8213 wrote: BARDAS wrote: 8213 wrote: Scouts have their advantages that no other suits can duplicate, but that's not enough for Scout users. Are we even playing the same game? I would laugh but I'm pretty sure you are serious. Please pray tell us what these mystical roles that only a Scout can perform are? 1. Speed without Kin-Cats 2. Smaller hitboxes 3. Racial Scout Bonus 4. Scout Bonus 5. More Stealth(not much, but more) 6. Stamina without Cardiac Regulators 7. Jumps higher So, I suppose the roles it would do better are: 1.Sneaking behind enemy lines (Maybe that's what its called a Scout) to plant equipment or Hack. 2. Closing range between enemies faster, making Shotguns (and other weapons) more effective too, thus providing yourself with a decent assault role, with the added defense of a smaller hitbox. 3. AV, because a Scout can chase down a HAV better, and cross terrian better because of the jumping ability. Good enough for me... 1. 0.33 extra speed is meaningless unless you are sprinting for 100+ meters. A Duvolle will eat you alive in a second and with Aim Assist speed tanking is DEAD. 2. O rly? Equip a scout suit and try and sprint through a small opening. You can't do it because it is as big as a heavies 3. Completely useless for Minmatar at this point in time. Nova Knives are the most broken weapon in the game right now. Passive scanning is just as useless right now for different reasons so there goes Gallente's bonus. 4. Dampening bonus is a bit more useful but to be "invisible" you need to give up on your tank as a Gallente or Speed as a Minmatar. Doesn't work with Proto scanners either. Plus you need to spend millions of more SP vs what someone spent to get a proto scanner. 5. What stealth? See above. 6. LOL wut? Stamina was nerfed back in 1.2 I think it was. 7. Never noticed this when I play my Dragonfly Assault Really, you have no idea what you are talking about. EDIT: I'm going to go have a conversation with my dog now. I think it will be more productive. Have a good night lol... So, everything wrong with Scouts and all their advantages and specific things they get don't mean anything to you, because everything else in the game is broken? Sounds to me Scouts are still just fine, but its CCP's fault for making bonuses and equipment not work properly... Now, try and tell me what's wrong with the Scout specifically. I'll give you 7, because I thought of that, but I figured one dropsuit in the game doesn't count, especially since its Light counterpart jumps even higher.
8213 Grade No.2 476	Posted - 2013.10.20 19:32:00 - [16] - Quote [quote=Bojo The Mighty Damn that turned out longer than hoped.....RAMBLE!!![/quote] I read all of it, and you did say a couple things; made 2 posts. I agree with a lot of what you said. It does appear that Scouts are okay to use, except the game has shunned them out. CCP tells us to pick our targets wisely. So for Scouts and Shotgun users (usually one in the same) this limits what you can do. Because (in theory) Heavies, Brick Gallentes, and Tanked Logis are out of the question. Scouts themselves sacrifice HP in exchanged for being harder to shoot (more squirrely, sneaky, and smaller hitbox) but there is no doubt it can be frustrating. I remember the Scout Medic roles, they worked well. The speed thing was an issue, because of the smaller hitbox, a Scout could appear to run through bullets (they still do somewhat) and that too was frustrating for players. The thrill of running Lightweight and covering ground like a madman is very fun. I play like this too, it's actually my preferred style. But, that seems like a player who wants Call of Duty style play in DUST, which DUST can't have the way it is right now. One thing I will disagree wityh is the extra CPU/PG and extra Equipment slot (think Caldari Logi) because what's to stop a Player from not using the equipment, but tanking more HP, or Speed, or Damage, or whatever on the Frame? You could turn a Scout into an Assault but with the added speed and smaller hitbox. A while ago, I did make a rather popular suggestion for Scouts. Moveable slots, meaning if you want an extra-equip slot, you lose a high-slot, you want double grenades, you lose sidearm, etc.
8213 Grade No.2 477	Posted - 2013.10.20 20:08:00 - [17] - Quote Crash Monster wrote: 8213 wrote: One thing I will disagree wityh is the extra CPU/PG and extra Equipment slot (think Caldari Logi) because what's to stop a Player from not using the equipment, but tanking more HP, or Speed, or Damage, or whatever on the Frame? You could turn a Scout into an Assault but with the added speed and smaller hitbox. I'm not following your thinking here. Are you saying scouts shouldn't be able to put good gear in the slots they do have? Until you get to proto you are very limited in slots and CPU/PG. Adding an extra equipment slot is not going to allow people to tank more -- they still have the crappy non-equipment layout they have now. On the proto, the suit has better CPU/PG but still has one equipment slot. Giving it an extra equipment slot will have nothing to do with what someone may decide to tank. Edit: It would be nice to allow a scout to have ammo/hives as well as some other type of equipment since they are often roaming around locations far away from other hives or supply depots. Even on a Protosuit, you can't fit all Proto gear, it won't fit, and you can't be diversified. Instead of using the Extra CPU/PG to fill equipment, you could use it to stack all Proto mods, making yourself overly effective(possibly OP)
8213 Grade No.2 480	Posted - 2013.10.20 21:47:00 - [18] - Quote Django Quik wrote: I've read through this entire thread and seen all sorts of BS said. The undeniable fact of the matter is that a mini logi can do anything any scout suit can do and still have more eHP and carry extra equipment. Let's look at some stats (assuming max skills): Logi mk0 - 512 CPU 102 PG 299 eHP 4 low slots 4 high slots 4 equipment slots 7.35m/s sprint 5hp/s built in repair 45db Scan Profile Scout mk0 - 210 less CPU 23 less PG 87 less eHP 2 less low slots 1 less high slot 3 less equipment slots 0.96 more sprint speed 5hp/s less built in repair 14.63db lower profile Scout gk0 - 184 less CPU 23 less PG 50 less eHP Same low slots 3 less high slots 3 less equipment slots 0.66 more sprint speed 5hp/s less built in repair 14.63db lower profile 7.5m extra passive scan radius Taking into consideration the extra slots and CPU/PG the logi has, every single benefit that the scout suits have can easily be surpassed with mods. 1 complex kincat gets more speed than the galscout and just less than the minscout. 1 complex range amp gets 0.75m less scan range than the galscout. 1 complex profile dampener gets very nearly the same profile as any scout. That is how easy it is to be just as good as a scout at scouting with many slots, CPU and PG left over, as well as being able to carry 3 extra pieces of equipment, so you can effectively scout by running an active scanner and uplinks. Oh and don't forget your extra free built in complex repper and extra hack speed, so you're even a better infiltrator! So, whatever you think isn't wrong with the scouts is irrelevant - with the way they currently are, they are pointless. Darn sounds like Logis need a nerf, specifically the Minmatar
8213 Grade No.2 480	Posted - 2013.10.20 21:49:00 - [19] - Quote Shotty GoBang wrote: 8213 wrote: Even on a Protosuit, you can't fit all Proto gear, it won't fit, and you can't be diversified. Instead of using the Extra CPU/PG to fill equipment, you could use it to stack all Proto mods, making yourself overly effective(possibly OP) Consider the extent of Scout Nerfs since Chromosome: Our Slot Configs were directly nerfed Our EQ Slots were directly nerfed Our PG/CPU outputs directly were nerfed Our Scan Radius was directly were nerfed Our Stamina pool was directly nerfed Our Base Speeds were directly nerfed Our Alpha potential was indirectly nerfed (with massive buffs to medium/heavy eHP) Our Evasive abilities were indirectly nerfed (by improved hitscan mechanics) Our Hitbox advantage was indirectly nerfed (by aim assist) Our Mobility advantage was indirectly nerfed (with buffs to non-scout mobility) Our Strafe advantage was indirectly nerfed (with buffs to non-scout strafe speed) Our Tools of assassination were nerfed and broken (SG / NK detection remains unreliable) The "Buff Scout" threads of early Uprising were welcome and supported (even by non-Scouts). When our ranks dwindled and our performance sagged, even CCP acknowledged the problem. Cmdr Wang promised future Dev Hugs, and every build since we have waited. Everyone agreed that the Scout was sick and needed something substantial. Five builds later, we've all become more and more accustomed to the Scout imbalance. AR-514's sense of entitlement has been nurtured and encouraged. It took some time to take hold, but now the "Scouts aren't supposed to kill" mentality is commonplace. So much so, that when a Top 100 player -- who happens to be a Scout -- smashed someone, that someone stomped off to the forums in protest... "How dare a Scout be able to kill me?" We Scouts have adapted and the TacNet changes have helped. But our blades remain dull, our suits remain imbalanced, and our roles remain better performed by others. The Scout is still sick, and more work must be done ... We account for only 3-5% of the playerbase and only 2% of the Top 100. 38% of us (including CPM Nova Knife) have been largely inactive in 1.5. 25% of us haven't bothered to play 1.5 at all. 75% of newbro Scouts give up before reaching 1,000 kills. ... we're very much looking forward to a meaningful buff, and we hope that CCP hasn't forgotten about us. So, you want CCP to take time to figure out how to utilize your roles better in a game that you only take up 1% of the population? Get to the back of the line... Shotty, quite frankly you're seen as some "Scout Hero" when you're just a guy that complains because he always wants more, because his neighbor has it...
8213 Grade No.2 480	Posted - 2013.10.20 22:02:00 - [20] - Quote OZAROW wrote: Rifle, are the reason your all scared if we get any love, an tbh you should be cuz when we're fixed we're gonna be a nasty bunch Of course you are. Because while everyone has to play tactically, you'll get to treat the game like Call of Duty, which is basically what all Scouts really want... Battlefield and Call of Duty are that way <-----

8213 Grade No.2 484	Posted - 2013.10.20 23:18:00 - [21] - Quote BARDAS wrote: I am starting to think we have all been taken for some epic trolling here. No one can be as stupid or as blind as the OP while deliberately ignoring the evidence presented which clearly states the point that Scouts need dire attention. The OP's points of view change from poster to poster and he has no solid footing or evidence to back up his claims besides his own bias. If this isn't an epic trolling attempt i'm going to say it is one of the biggest cases of butt hurt I have seen in a while. Couldn't the same be about you too? Or wait, if you state it, its true just because, right? If you want your scouts to preform like Call of Duty playstyle, then allow Assaults the same, you can die in three shots with every gun in the game, sound fair? Because that's all scouts want. They don't want to sacrifice anything in this game. How come Heavies don't get a buff then? They are reduced to glorified campers... Go back to Call of Duty, where you can run around with your shotgun there and be effective. Sorry, but a large, tactical, open map FPS isn't Scout friendly, and never can be. According to scouts: The only time they were ever supposedly effective was in Chromosome where they actually weren't effective, it was just an exploit in the game mechanics. So, you want your exploit back? Then let everyone have their exploits back too. Not that I care a whole lot anyway...
8213 Grade No.2 486	Posted - 2013.10.20 23:43:00 - [22] - Quote Shotty GoBang wrote: BARDAS wrote: I am starting to think we have all been taken for some epic trolling here. No one can be as stupid or as blind as the OP while deliberately ignoring the evidence presented which clearly states the point that Scouts need dire attention. The OP's points of view change from poster to poster and he has no solid footing or evidence to back up his claims besides his own bias. If this isn't an epic trolling attempt i'm going to say it is one of the biggest cases of butt hurt I have seen in a while. Doubtful, sadly. And representative of many AR-514. Content with imbalance, if and only if it works in his favor. Eager to defend and perpetuate his undue advantage. Unable to comprehend facts which threaten his entitlement. Liberated from reason and incapable of debate. Well aware that he moves among superior opponent. Overcome by emotion and fearful of a balanced Scout. We can draw your tears as is, OP. Imagine what we'll accomplish once we're balanced. I was an SCR guy, sir. You know the gun that takes skill? Why would anyone fear a Scout? If the entire playerbase fears it, then wouldn't that mean its OP and everyone will use it then? What would there be to fear then if everyone ran with it? You're confusing the word balance with GREED... Like I've told all the Scouts: If you want Call of Duty style FPS, then go play those games. You're own Leaderboard that you started obviously shows that Scouts can be very effective already. Because the whole argument of God Players choosing to gimp themselves is complete bullsh*t. You're greedy and want more and more, simple as that. You want more content at your disposal, which says the game is all about what gear you run over how good you actually are. But then you say you're these God players that are capable of being ranked in the top 1% of the game... So, what I gather is this: You do well in a Scout, its because you're a beast, the elite of the elite of the DUST playerbase. You get killed by someone, and its because the game is broken for you (when you already had your run during Chromosome exploiting things that were broken in your favor) and your deaths and ineffectiveness is in no way your own doing? Sorry Shotty, you chose Scout and stuck with it. Your exploits were dialed back, like Cadari Logis, HAVs, and Heavies were, and you have to live with it. I still don't why you don't just use a Medium Frame. The beauty of free choice is, you get to choose, but you don't get to dictate the results all the time... What makes Scouts so special that they need to be dialed up a notch? If you get your buffs, can the limiter on the Semi-Auto SCR come off too?
8213 Grade No.2 489	Posted - 2013.10.21 21:19:00 - [23] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: 8213 wrote: So, you want CCP to take time to figure out how to utilize your roles better in a game that you only take up 1% of the population? Get to the back of the line... Shotty, quite frankly you're seen as some "Scout Hero" when you're just a guy that complains because he always wants more, because his neighbor has it... The reason why we're so small of the population is because our **** is UP dip hit. And go to the back of what line? You want a better medium frame scrub? No, I wanted more important things to be fixed. Like rendering issues, hit detection, lag, match making, software time, etc...
8213 Grade No.2 491	Posted - 2013.10.22 05:06:00 - [24] - Quote Mossellia Delt wrote: Looks like the OPs corp name is apt as he has as much sence and intelligence as a 2nd grader. You know there is actually a 3 step process dealing with people you think are wrong. 1. You think they are ignorant. -That was everyone's first step, they thought I was simply misinformed. Many on here have provided me information in order to correct my ignorance in Scouts. I learned a lot about them, and tried to apply it to my own understanding. I left many likes and responses on here agreeing with some of these changes, but overall I didn't feel it was warrant enough to change the Scout as it is right now. 2. After information is provided, and the person still doesn't agree, they are simply an idiot. -I got called an idiot on this thread left and right. Because I was unable to simply understand the point of view of Scouts, I was called a moron. I understand what drawbacks the Scout/Light has, and I still didn't agree that they should be changed right now. Or, that there changes were needed in the game at this time. 3. Lastly, the person is deemed informed, and intelligent enough to understand it, so they are simply evil. They are lying. -Eventually I got called names, and was labeled a Troll, because no other explanation could represent my point of view and assessment. Me being right, even just a little bit, was a notion that could not be entertained, I had to be going about this whole thread with deceitful intentions. One guy on here said that eventually I would be referenced to Adolf ****. People on here started labeling my personality with evil traits. I was doing this thread simply because I was an ahole. Here's a reference link if you want. Long... looooooong thread short. I agree with some changes that can be made to Scout, but at the end of the day the Scout is so close to the center-line of effective versus OP. I think they are about as balanced as you can get in this game without pushing them over the edge to OP. If the changes people are wanting are slight, then why have them at all? What is so detrimental about having them stay the same? They are hard to use, but also have the ability to puke wrecksauce on opponents if put in the right hands. Broken game mechanics aside (this is a content balance issue) Scouts may be hard mode, but so is the SCR, Plasma Cannon, etc... but placed the right hands... they devastate. Instead of worrying about wanting more, why not try to unlock the Scouts potential first? If you feel you already have unlocked that potential (like the list on Shotty's Leaderboard seem to have done) then how can you complain? How can you complain having a 3 K/D in the hardest frame? How can you complain topping leaderboards? How can you want more if you're already considered some of the best DUST Players on the planet? Look at it from both sides, objectively, without selfishness. You can actually learn a lot on this forum, not just about the game but humans in general...
8213 Grade No.2 491	Posted - 2013.10.22 06:28:00 - [25] - Quote Ludvig Enraga wrote: Johnny Guilt wrote: Shotty GoBang wrote: Johnny Guilt wrote: Scout suits are fine for what they do within the hit/run or stealth playstyles and only those styles and nothing else. Scenario A: Newbro AR-514 spots Proto Scout. Guns him down in an instant, as the Scout made a mistake. Scenario B: Newbro Scout sneaks up behind Proto AR-514. Stabs or Shotguns his mark in the back, but dies instantly when mark turns around. Conclusion: Perfectly planned and executed assassinations often fail. Hit-and-run / stealth playstyle is imbalanced. Perhaps this is why 75% of newbro Scouts quit Dust after graduating the Academy. Question: Why is this OK? You guys are taking this suit too seriously and blaming the suit and not the user, the scout suit isn't the easiest suit to play,in most cases the reason the scout dies is from personal mistakes(or lack of experience) either from the users failure to execute assassinations or lack of situational awareness which put him in those situations where he is killed.Don't expect newberry bros to know is head from his ass fresh out of academy to play scout well,it's not entry level and anyone getting into scout suits should know what their in for,puting your balls on the line with the risk of death higher than any other suit but for great profit/thrill,IF you know how to play it. The argument is not that a good scout player can't do well in a battle. The problem is that when you do make all things equal a player of the same level of skill in a different suit would always do better than a scout. Scout is not good at anything besides being the hard mode. Yeah, I gather its hard... but so what? Every game has that "hard mode" whether it be a Game like GTA5 that you select which difficulty you want to play on, or you play Black Ops 2 and use the KSG, or use the Plasma Cannon or SCR in DUST. You choose to play the hard mode, so why complain when you lose? Scouts aren't broken, their playerbase (which has already proven themselves more than adequate at the game) just wants more. I know WHAT they want in terms of fixes. I know HOW they want the fixes to work and be implemented. But WHY? Greed like that is what destroys playerbases. And with only 5000 DUST-ers, they aren't that far from destroying themselves... if CCP doesn't do it first. There has been argument for every weapon, setup, and whatever else in this game that has been asked to get nerfed or buffed- it never stops! BALANCE IS IMPOSSIBLE and always will be. Something has to be cast out and labeled as hard. It comes down to one side wanting more for themselves to have some sort of advantage over another and not want to play on hard. Players don't like hard. DUST players hate hard. As soon as something gets hard, they cry for re-work. They Protostomp to avoid hard. They exploit every advantage to avoid hard. Nobody likes to chose hard. But for the few that do, remember its a CHOICE. But to sit on here as proclaimed masters of hard and yet ask for more??? That's like Michael Jordan (Kobe Bryant and Lebron James for you kids) asking his shoes be lighter so he jump higher, and the hoop lowers 1m every time he has possession of the ball... He already stands out as the best among the best, but its just never going to be good enough... he wants to keep tweeking a few micro improvements out of the game strictly for himself.
8213 Grade No.2 491	Posted - 2013.10.22 06:48:00 - [26] - Quote Mossellia Delt wrote: 8213 wrote: Yeah, I gather its hard... but so what? Every game has that "hard mode" whether it be a Game like GTA5 that you select which difficulty you want to play on, or you play Black Ops 2 and use the KSG, or use the Plasma Cannon or SCR in DUST. You choose to play the hard mode, so why complain when you lose? Scouts aren't broken, their playerbase (which has already proven themselves more than adequate at the game) just wants more. I know WHAT they want in terms of fixes. I know HOW they want the fixes to work and be implemented. But WHY? Greed like that is what destroys playerbases. And with only 5000 DUST-ers, they aren't that far from destroying themselves... if CCP doesn't do it first. There has been argument for every weapon, setup, and whatever else in this game that has been asked to get nerfed or buffed- it never stops! BALANCE IS IMPOSSIBLE and always will be. Something has to be cast out and labeled as hard. It comes down to one side wanting more for themselves to have some sort of advantage over another and not want to play on hard. Players don't like hard. DUST players hate hard. As soon as something gets hard, they cry for re-work. They Protostomp to avoid hard. They exploit every advantage to avoid hard. Nobody likes to chose hard. But for the few that do, remember its a CHOICE. But to sit on here as proclaimed masters of hard and yet ask for more??? That's like Michael Jordan (Kobe Bryant and Lebron James for you kids) asking his shoes be lighter so he jump higher, and the hoop lowers 1m every time he has possession of the ball... He already stands out as the best among the best, but its just never going to be good enough... he wants to keep tweeking a few micro improvements out of the game strictly for himself. Which would you rather run A 300 HP scout or A 700 HP Logi that is better at everything a scout does and more Both are around the same price See that big long post you quoted that I wrote? see the part about choice? see the part that Scout is choice? No you probably missed it, because like a lot of people on this board you skimmed through and decided to respond to one part of the post and ignore the rest, because it contradicted whatever it was that you wanted to say... In this case, the part I wrote about Scouts being hard and that they were a choice. the fact that you respond with a post that is giving me choice, I'll assume you didn't read the post. So what would you choose? An Gallente Assault with Brick and Damge Stacks, 800 HP with an AR or An Amarr Sentinel with with damage mods and shields, 800 HP with an AR
8213 Grade No.2 491	Posted - 2013.10.22 07:41:00 - [27] - Quote Oswald Rehnquist wrote: 8213 wrote: See that big long post you quoted that I wrote? see the part about choice? see the part that Scout is choice? No you probably missed it, because like a lot of people on this board you skimmed through and decided to respond to one part of the post and ignore the rest, because it contradicted whatever it was that you wanted to say... In this case, the part I wrote about Scouts being hard and that they were a choice. the fact that you respond with a post that is giving me choice, I'll assume you didn't read the post. So what would you choose? An Gallente Assault with Brick and Damge Stacks, 800 HP with an AR or An Amarr Sentinel with with damage mods and shields, 800 HP with an AR I have missed the majority of the thread but from this page alone, your constructs are all screwed up what prevents me from using that excuse on anything UP or OP? Why should have flaylocks been nerfed? Or the HMG for that matter? Or Vehicles? Why was the laser rifle buffed back up again? Could I not just use the excuse that the other tasks were hard / easy mode? What separates OP/UP imbalances from your arbitrary acceptability of hard/easy mode? I'd love to hear the answer to this one Beside the laser (which was buffed AFTER a nerf) what can you list that received a much needed buff? Honestly, the most balanced this game was to me was when it was in beta because everything was super powerful, so everyone had insta-kill potential. And now its balanced because everything is lame and mediocre. Granted there was less in the game during Beta, but Scouts were still hard back then(which is when I used them the most I think), HMGs and Viziams were easy mode. Now everything has been buffed back, so it looks like the AR is OP, when the AR is actually fine, just that everything around it has been crushed down. AR is still the same since Beta (Save the Sharpshooter Skill, which all weapons had) Bottom line is people hate dying. They want all their deaths eliminated (especially "undeserved deaths" from lag, etc.), After they figure out how to eliminate their deaths (aka- use easy mode) then they want more kills and points, because they feel they are entitled to it. They feel that their full skill in a game can't fully be unleashed and that's simply not fair. They aren't happy unless they are in a match with Academy Noobs in 250 HP Starter Fits, using Protogear, and having them line up like fish in a bucket for them. So, Scouts are hard mode. Always were. They are harder now, because they can't out run the highest x-axis sensitivity like they could in beta and fluke the hitbox into disappearing(which they still do in this game sometimes). Most Scouts just really want their exploit back... they don't care about slots or scan radius. They want the exploit back. Now, since Scouts are hard, and in DUST 514 they will always be hard because the game doesn't favor a Call of Duty type of character, it comes down to CHOICE! People choose Hard mode, or easy mode. Like I HAVE ALREADY STATED... SHOOTER BALANCE IS IMPOSSIBLE, no game has ever done it. No game can ever do it. Eventually things are in the game that are hard. Some are easy. You choose what you want to do, mostly for the sake of bragging rights. The term UP doesn't apply to Scouts, because Shotty has a nice list of really good players that obviously prove that Scouts aren't the case for being UP. WooHoo! You thought you found a loop in the logic by creating your own fictitious definition of OP/UP, good try sir. Been playing FPS for over 20 years, and the definition of OP and UP are as follows: OP- means it has no counters or balance against it. NOT something very effective but still with counters. UP- means it can't be used in the game towards a positive outcome. NOT something people can still win matches with. Funny, I basically had to re-type everything I already posted because you thought you came up with some slick "loophole" to my argument... choice, choice, choice, choice, and choice... everything in this game is a choice. Eventually you have to choose and settle for either hard or easy. And live with the consequences. I hate to keep plugging my work, but I've been saying this for a while now: YUP! Save yourself some reading and just try to listen... especially that parts about slingshots, Mass Drivers, and Lasers...
8213 Grade No.2 491	Posted - 2013.10.22 07:51:00 - [28] - Quote Sollemnis Aelinos wrote: umm i went around and knife an entire squad in the back and i wasnt "scouting". umm does that mean im doing it wrong or do i just "suck"? Nope, you were using the Scout as intended. But you're not allowed to be successful in the Scout, because then it shows that the Setup can be effective and in fact doesn't need any re-work right now. Shame on you for getting kills in a scout suit! You're not helping the SCOUT BUFF CAUSE! Do poorly with it, then people will think it sucks, that way you can get your buff... Hope that helps.
8213 Grade No.2 493	Posted - 2013.10.22 21:09:00 - [29] - Quote Oswald Rehnquist wrote: I took the liberty of pulling out the fluff and applying the material to the original questions, but since they were not really addressed in any concise manner, well go through a set of inferences with your paragraphs. Since you like to break things down, so you don't have to reference the information as a whole, I'll break it down for you for you too; you seem to understand it. Make sure you catch the graph at the end 1. You didn't prove that Scouts were UP, by my definition, and anyone's definition. You HAVE proven that they can be less effective. Less effective is not the same thing as UP. By the measuring standards in this game (WP and ISK Profit aka- make money, fck btches) Scouts have proven that they are capable of doing this well as other dropsuit setups. How ever they achieve that success is up to them. 2. Eventually, the balancing will have to stop, because achieving it is impossible(especially in a game like DUST where you strive to obtain and advantage). Eventually things have to be categorized as Easy/Medium/Hard if you want to compare them respectively to each other. Trying to give scouts equality (move them the to the Medium/Easy mode category) but keeping DUST the same overall format (Make money, fck btches) will only end in failure. Something has to stay in hard mode. Scouts seem to be that poor redheaded step-child because of the landscape of the game. 3. I made a nice chart using a fine graphics programs. Basically, all the content in the game should (or come comes close to trying) break down on the chart as far as difficulty. If it's all the way to the left, its UP, if its all the way to the right its OP. Scouts are in the 2.5%. They are close to UP, but still lands on the chart of of how effective and difficult it is to use. BooYa! If something lands between Hard-Easy, it is not in need of rework. FPS players have to accept this, and have a model to base this on... otherwise factions get greedy or other factions want those factions to get nerfed... I'm not calling for a Scout nerf, or buff. I'm saying that they are not UP, nor OP. They are hard, but still playable the way they are in this game. Same argument is said for the Plasma Cannon, SCR, Shotgun, MLT/STD HAVs. Truth be told, the Flaylock and Md were nerfed because people cried to much. The weapons were fine, but people wanted them nerfed on principle. (Flaylocks were secondaries, thus should outdo Primaries... MDs don't need aim, thus they shouldn't out do SCRs and ARs)
8213 Grade No.2 496	Posted - 2013.10.22 22:33:00 - [30] - Quote ShinyJay wrote: 8213 wrote: Oswald Rehnquist wrote: I took the liberty of pulling out the fluff and applying the material to the original questions, but since they were not really addressed in any concise manner, well go through a set of inferences with your paragraphs. Since you like to break things down, so you don't have to reference the information as a whole, I'll break it down for you for you too; you seem to understand it. Make sure you catch the graph at the end 1. You didn't prove that Scouts were UP, by my definition, and anyone's definition. You HAVE proven that they can be less effective. Less effective is not the same thing as UP. By the measuring standards in this game (WP and ISK Profit aka- make money, fck btches) Scouts have proven that they are capable of doing this well as other dropsuit setups. How ever they achieve that success is up to them. 2. Eventually, the balancing will have to stop, because achieving it is impossible(especially in a game like DUST where you strive to obtain and advantage). Eventually things have to be categorized as Easy/Medium/Hard if you want to compare them respectively to each other. Trying to give scouts equality (move them the to the Medium/Easy mode category) but keeping DUST the same overall format (Make money, fck btches) will only end in failure. Something has to stay in hard mode. Scouts seem to be that poor redheaded step-child because of the landscape of the game. 3. I made a nice chart using a fine graphics programs. Basically, all the content in the game should (or come comes close to trying) break down on the chart as far as difficulty. If it's all the way to the left, its UP, if its all the way to the right its OP. Scouts are in the 2.5%. They are close to UP, but still lands on the chart of of how effective and difficult it is to use. BooYa! If something lands between Hard-Easy, it is not in need of rework. FPS players have to accept this, and have a model to base this on... otherwise factions get greedy or other factions want those factions to get nerfed... I'm not calling for a Scout nerf, or buff. I'm saying that they are not UP, nor OP. They are hard, but still playable the way they are in this game. Same argument is said for the Plasma Cannon, SCR, Shotgun, MLT/STD HAVs. Truth be told, the Flaylock and Md were nerfed because people cried to much. The weapons were fine, but people wanted them nerfed on principle. (Flaylocks were secondaries, thus should outdo Primaries... MDs don't need aim, thus they shouldn't out do SCRs and ARs) 1. if the scout suit is less effective, it is under performing against other suits that can do it's role a lot better. your just using "if he can kill in a scout suit, it's must not be UP" and think you are entitled to be right based on some people who learned some tactics, which can be done be any suit. if you want to measure WP and isk payout (which doesn't make any sense), then you must first use numbers from each game instead of just 1, as the numbers constantly change. don't use public matches either as they can skew your numbers since people aren't as good in pub matches. 2. if balance is impossible to achieve, why make the game at all if it's doomed to fail from the start? this game can achieve balance if done right, but everything needs to be looked over to see what is being used and how much. this game is only easy/hard as you want to make it, not by which suit you choose. don't confuse easy/hard with types of suits used, but instead with how you go about your tactics, since that is what determines how you do. 3. how did you make that chart? what numbers did you use? how did you get all the info for it? missed

8213 Grade No.2 496	Posted - 2013.10.22 22:38:00 - [31] - Quote OZAROW wrote: So I read a bit of that mess an what I want to know is, if you think their hardly playable an hard mod but not u.p how does that even measure up? If 2.5% of the entire player base are scouts how many are scouts that are entirely new since uprising? How many new people tried it an said fukthis I'm not staying this class any longer or putting more points in it an how many are scouts because their locked in a sp sink an how many would quit being scouts if given a respec tomorrow, an how many older scouts own other suits an run them more than scouts, or are scout tankers? See your going off shotty's chart, an that's your first mistake. The registry asks for honesty. For only 50% of your time to be a scout. I played scout since jan only, it's taken from then to now to get over 1 on my kd an over 10 000 kills. Does that mean I suck? No it means I use a scout ONLY, an not a assault rifle or sniper or tank. You think djinn got 50000 sg kills? Give your head a shake Older scouts that like rifles an been here since closed beta an are extremely good players in any game are our top. I gaurunte if I used a rifle the whole time I'd have double what I have. So because I like sg an nk I have to put up with a broken game? If your a assault scout it's not the same as a nk or sg assassin . Why Because look at the CPU pg difference in those weapons also compare armor to biotics. The scout should accomodate it's many play styles not AR514 My knives use as much as a proto gun, wtf? Asking for more difference between frame with speed an scanning an CPU pg an a equip slot isn't much to ask when we need survalence equipment . But wasting my time with you is like expecting every human being able to understand logic hmmm missed, buuuut the idea of Scouts have their own gear sound fair to you? Then maybe Heavies can get there own gear to? For example: Kin-Cats that can only be used by Scouts and can't be put on Medium and Light Frames. Kind of like the Armor mods that are made for scouts.
8213 Grade No.2 496	Posted - 2013.10.22 22:57:00 - [32] - Quote Oswald Rehnquist wrote: 8213 wrote: Fortunately for you I actually address the foundation of your arguments, unfortunately for me you completely ignore mine, just want to point that out 8213 wrote: 1. You didn't prove that Scouts were UP, by my definition, and anyone's definition. You HAVE proven that they can be less effective. Less effective is not the same thing as UP. By the measuring standards in this game (WP and ISK Profit aka- make money, fck btches) Scouts have proven that they are capable of doing this well as other dropsuit setups. How ever they achieve that success is up to them. A) My definition holds up, yours does not, which I actually explain why, you can provide reasons why mine does not hold if you disagree. B) You counter point was literally "no no no", saying it isn't true doesn't make it so. C) I actually did not prove anything because neither I nor you have the raw data. CCP who actually owns all the data has confirmed and admitted to scouts under performing 8213 wrote: 2. Eventually, the balancing will have to stop, because achieving it is impossible(especially in a game like DUST where you strive to obtain and advantage). Eventually things have to be categorized as Easy/Medium/Hard if you want to compare them respectively to each other. Trying to give scouts equality (move them the to the Medium/Easy mode category) but keeping DUST the same overall format (Make money, fck btches) will only end in failure. Something has to stay in hard mode. Scouts seem to be that poor redheaded step-child because of the landscape of the game. The game is not even near being done, and the scouts are hardly even fleshed out, we don't even have all the variants yet you think the breaks should be applied? Your only motive for putting any brakes on changes is to prevent the scout from growing as a whole, there really is no rational thought behind it when the game is still early in its infancy. 8213 3. I made a nice chart using a fine graphics programs. Basically, all the content in the game should (or come comes close to trying) break down on the chart as far as difficulty. If it's all the way to the left, its UP, if its all the way to the right its OP. Scouts are in the 2.5%. They are close to UP, but still lands on the chart of of how effective and difficult it is to use. [url=http://t.co/5dkAXNeWA2 wrote: BooYa![/url] This actually made me smile, because this shows that you don't know anything about statistics, and your are arguing with someone who's career evolves around stats. http://www.regentsprep.org/regents/math/algtrig/ATS2/NormalLesson.htm This one should help you out too, Hard mode would be on the lower end of 1 standard deviation to about 1.5 standard deviations from what is normal. Anything that goes past 1.5 standard deviations, let alone past 2 standard deviations is beyond broken and unusable, While neither of us have the raw data, I don't think scouts are THAT broken be be ranked as 2 standard deviations down as what you have shown in the graph, which also bring up the point that I don't think you really even know the significance of the chart you have displayed, because it entirely shuts your own points down. Based on your graph, the scout effectiveness is literally less than 5% on that chart. If we were to turn this into sniper rifles, that is like a sniper rifle that does 100 damage and another that does 5 damage........ I'll leave you on that thought Wow, I expected more from you... but you missed as well. How I used the Curve was actually shown in the link you provided, so how did you read it wrong? I even saved you the diminishing return points because I covered them in the video I linked, and thought you knew better. I can't talk with you anymore. You try to break down my arguments, but fail to provide your own reasons or suggestions. Arguing, for arguing's sake. Do you remember what this thread is about? CCP says that scouts have it hard. They will eventually attempt to move them to Medium or Easy. Then, the Commandos can have their turn to b*tch... have a good one. i don't know if you're a Scout, or what role you play in this game, buy have fun and good luck.
8213 Grade No.2 496	Posted - 2013.10.22 23:00:00 - [33] - Quote Flux Raeder wrote: 8213 wrote: This forum has a few themes right now: Nerf the AR, Patch want/needs, and Scout suit modifications. I see that people who are using Scouts are not happy with what little they have to work with. They want more equipment slots, or more CPU, and more speed, etc... I thought the purpose of light frames was to be stripped down suits that purposely can perform LESS simultaneous functions on the battlefield. They are like the opposites of Logi or Heavies I thought? Scouts have speed and stealth, which means they run around the back of the enemy and plant Uplinks to ambush the enemy, sneak to an objective and begin hacking it, scan the holy sht out of everything, and maybe get a few kills then run for cover again. Or, they actually scout* the enemy and use a mic to tell their team where they are at. I know some people use them for shotguns, because you need every advantage you can get with those broken guns, and the fact that hitboxes sway terribly in this game makes Scouts very effective when they are dancing all around you. Bullets shoot right through them like they are ghosts; but they die instantly if they are 10 metes away from you... I can't tell you how many times I catch a Scout in the open, in the thick of the battlefield running head on right at me, and all I can think is "really dude, props for trying, but you're dead... NOW" I shoot, they die. sometimes I even have o back up 5 steps. This is an example of a scout playing foolishly to there equipment function. So, Why are Scout users asking for more, when their frames are specifically made to do less? This doesn't mean they aren't effective, they just have different roles. Sure, Heavies would like to have equipment slots so they can stand on Triages, Logis would like sidearms AND more slots, mediums would like to have Scout speed without sacrificing health and stealth themselves. I personally would like more to my Caldari Medium frames(and yes I use the SCR w/ Caldari because I'm stubborn) but that's all in the name of balance. I never used an actual Scout frame before; only Basic Light. I do fine with them of what can be expected. I hack more objectives, and I get more support WP. In fact, I'll leave with this example: The only time I ever played General John Ripper and Levi Thunder our team was destined to get stomped. I was having a terrible day with connections, so I was only using free fits that day. One of them was The Gallente Hunter Fit, a stealth(ish) Light frame. As expected, my team was getting destroyed in a hurry, we went down by 15 clones in the first 2 minutes. So, I put on my light frame, and ran all the way around the map, and climbed up a wall and planted Uplinks right behind them. So ever death from there on, they got ambushed. I then ran all the way around them again and did it to them a 2nd, and 3rd time. I finished 2/4 but had 1200+ in Uplinks because I placed them in detrimental positions for the enemy. I called in my HAV (and actually left it there for my team to drive) and before you know it, we won the match. All thanks to ME! All thanks to using a Light Suit as intended. Because QQ'ers will QQ. I know plenty of scouts that totally dominate in the Sneaky Bastard role that the suits are made for, I myself almost always dominate in pub and fw when I pull out my militia scout suit. I have a hacking module, militia ar (oh the sheer greifing of it :) ), toxin smg (nicknamed faceshredder) some re's and av 'nades. With that setup I can sneak around, hack like crazy, mow down enemies from the side and behind, take and cover objectives, and, possibly best of all, if I am sneaky enough to creep up on a slow or camping tank I can take even a proto tank down with the combo of my re's and av'nades. All that combined with the fact that I make nothing but profit even in my worst games makes it my favourite suit ingame other ban my proto sniper. If my memory serves me right I can buy 20-30 suits for the price of a single one of my proto sniper fits. Used correctly the scout suit is a terror to the enemy, but I think this is true for every suit, the problems arise when people try to force a role on a suit that it shouldn't perform. I don't know you. I have never met you. I have never played with you. But you need to know... I love you.
8213 Grade No.2 496	Posted - 2013.10.22 23:37:00 - [34] - Quote ShinyJay wrote: [quote=8213][quote=Oswald Rehnquist] you also fail to bring in your own reasons why a scout doesn't need to be buffed, but instead use posts from others to try and back up your claim. maybe you are the one who missed points and not them. i play a scout suit a lot to learn different tactics and because i love the play style of it. i don't like that my role can be done by everything else much more effectively, in turn making my role as a scout ineffective. you tell me good sir, what is the role of a scout? follow up question for when you answer, can other suits do a scout's role effectively? My points and reasons were made in the 1st post of this thread, and well throughout it. Comparing yourself to the guy next to you gets you nowhere. At the end, you have to only look at yourself and judge it based on its own merits. Can a Medium do a Scouts job better? YES. Can a Heavy do a Medium's job better? YES. Can Logis do an Assaults job better? YES. The comparison model doesn't work, because then we would only have 1 suit, 1 weapon, no skills, 1 module, etc... (pssst... watch the video) I've already listed what advantages Scouts have in this game, that no other Frame has; big and small. I listed what roles they can do; big and small. Do your research and actually read it and think about it this time. Its on you to inform yourself of what I've said, my points, and the points of others in this thread. Stop making me repeat myself because you only skimmed bits and pieces and I have to fill you in on what you missed... If you have something to add to this thread, besides the comparison argument, then please do so already. Something new. Something that is going to make me say "gee, Scouts could use this, or that..." Others on here have done it (not that you would know that because you don't actually read and research anything) so it can be done.
8213 Grade No.2 496	Posted - 2013.10.22 23:56:00 - [35] - Quote OZAROW wrote: 8213 wrote: OZAROW wrote: So I read a bit of that mess an what I want to know is, if you think their hardly playable an hard mod but not u.p how does that even measure up? If 2.5% of the entire player base are scouts how many are scouts that are entirely new since uprising? How many new people tried it an said fukthis I'm not staying this class any longer or putting more points in it an how many are scouts because their locked in a sp sink an how many would quit being scouts if given a respec tomorrow, an how many older scouts own other suits an run them more than scouts, or are scout tankers? See your going off shotty's chart, an that's your first mistake. The registry asks for honesty. For only 50% of your time to be a scout. I played scout since jan only, it's taken from then to now to get over 1 on my kd an over 10 000 kills. Does that mean I suck? No it means I use a scout ONLY, an not a assault rifle or sniper or tank. You think djinn got 50000 sg kills? Give your head a shake Older scouts that like rifles an been here since closed beta an are extremely good players in any game are our top. I gaurunte if I used a rifle the whole time I'd have double what I have. So because I like sg an nk I have to put up with a broken game? If your a assault scout it's not the same as a nk or sg assassin . Why Because look at the CPU pg difference in those weapons also compare armor to biotics. The scout should accomodate it's many play styles not AR514 My knives use as much as a proto gun, wtf? Asking for more difference between frame with speed an scanning an CPU pg an a equip slot isn't much to ask when we need survalence equipment . But wasting my time with you is like expecting every human being able to understand logic hmmm missed, buuuut the idea of Scouts have their own gear sound fair to you? Then maybe Heavies can get there own gear to? For example: Kin-Cats that can only be used by Scouts and can't be put on Medium and Light Frames. Kind of like the Armor mods that are made for scouts. Missed? That's all you've been writing, your coming off a little too arrogant , biased an unable to be reasoned with Yes sir, its called giving up.
8213 Grade No.2 496	Posted - 2013.10.23 02:16:00 - [36] - Quote OZAROW wrote: 8213 wrote: OZAROW wrote: 8213 wrote: OZAROW wrote: So I read a bit of that mess an what I want to know is, if you think their hardly playable an hard mod but not u.p how does that even measure up? If 2.5% of the entire player base are scouts how many are scouts that are entirely new since uprising? How many new people tried it an said fukthis I'm not staying this class any longer or putting more points in it an how many are scouts because their locked in a sp sink an how many would quit being scouts if given a respec tomorrow, an how many older scouts own other suits an run them more than scouts, or are scout tankers? See your going off shotty's chart, an that's your first mistake. The registry asks for honesty. For only 50% of your time to be a scout. I played scout since jan only, it's taken from then to now to get over 1 on my kd an over 10 000 kills. Does that mean I suck? No it means I use a scout ONLY, an not a assault rifle or sniper or tank. You think djinn got 50000 sg kills? Give your head a shake Older scouts that like rifles an been here since closed beta an are extremely good players in any game are our top. I gaurunte if I used a rifle the whole time I'd have double what I have. So because I like sg an nk I have to put up with a broken game? If your a assault scout it's not the same as a nk or sg assassin . Why Because look at the CPU pg difference in those weapons also compare armor to biotics. The scout should accomodate it's many play styles not AR514 My knives use as much as a proto gun, wtf? Asking for more difference between frame with speed an scanning an CPU pg an a equip slot isn't much to ask when we need survalence equipment . But wasting my time with you is like expecting every human being able to understand logic hmmm missed, buuuut the idea of Scouts have their own gear sound fair to you? Then maybe Heavies can get there own gear to? For example: Kin-Cats that can only be used by Scouts and can't be put on Medium and Light Frames. Kind of like the Armor mods that are made for scouts. Missed? That's all you've been writing, your coming off a little too arrogant , biased an unable to be reasoned with Yes sir, its called giving up. So your trolling then on purpose, by ignoring everything presented to you an wasted our time? See at first I thought you just didn't know, now I see that your doing your best to be a complete RICHARD! Bravo good sir, ******* idiot LMFAO!!!!!! You really didn't read anything on this thread, did you? You probably won't even read this... because you just did this... I'm an Evil Troll Go ahead and respond, but I'm done with this thread. You stopped arguing points and started attacking me. There is plenty of information in this thread discussing Scouts. Its an archive at this point.

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