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ShinyJay
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Posted - 2013.10.20 23:23:00 -
[1] - Quote
8213 wrote:BARDAS wrote:I am starting to think we have all been taken for some epic trolling here. No one can be as stupid or as blind as the OP while deliberately ignoring the evidence presented which clearly states the point that Scouts need dire attention. The OP's points of view change from poster to poster and he has no solid footing or evidence to back up his claims besides his own bias.
If this isn't an epic trolling attempt i'm going to say it is one of the biggest cases of butt hurt I have seen in a while. Couldn't the same be about you too? Or wait, if you state it, its true just because, right? If you want your scouts to preform like Call of Duty playstyle, then allow Assaults the same, you can die in three shots with every gun in the game, sound fair? Because that's all scouts want. They don't want to sacrifice anything in this game. How come Heavies don't get a buff then? They are reduced to glorified campers... Go back to Call of Duty, where you can run around with your shotgun there and be effective. Sorry, but a large, tactical, open map FPS isn't Scout friendly, and never can be. According to scouts: The only time they were ever supposedly effective was in Chromosome where they actually weren't effective, it was just an exploit in the game mechanics. So, you want your exploit back? Then let everyone have their exploits back too. Not that I care a whole lot anyway...
if your gonna bring in call of duty, then it's the assault suits that want it to be call of duty. scout just want a fair chance in this game, which they aren't given |
ShinyJay
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Posted - 2013.10.22 21:52:00 -
[2] - Quote
8213 wrote:Oswald Rehnquist wrote:I took the liberty of pulling out the fluff and applying the material to the original questions, but since they were not really addressed in any concise manner, well go through a set of inferences with your paragraphs.
Since you like to break things down, so you don't have to reference the information as a whole, I'll break it down for you for you too; you seem to understand it. Make sure you catch the graph at the end  1. You didn't prove that Scouts were UP, by my definition, and anyone's definition. You HAVE proven that they can be less effective. Less effective is not the same thing as UP. By the measuring standards in this game (WP and ISK Profit aka- make money, f*ck b*tches) Scouts have proven that they are capable of doing this well as other dropsuit setups. How ever they achieve that success is up to them. 2. Eventually, the balancing will have to stop, because achieving it is impossible(especially in a game like DUST where you strive to obtain and advantage). Eventually things have to be categorized as Easy/Medium/Hard if you want to compare them respectively to each other. Trying to give scouts equality (move them the to the Medium/Easy mode category) but keeping DUST the same overall format (Make money, f*ck b*tches) will only end in failure. Something has to stay in hard mode. Scouts seem to be that poor redheaded step-child because of the landscape of the game. 3. I made a nice chart using a fine graphics programs. Basically, all the content in the game should (or come comes close to trying) break down on the chart as far as difficulty. If it's all the way to the left, its UP, if its all the way to the right its OP. Scouts are in the 2.5%. They are close to UP, but still lands on the chart of of how effective and difficult it is to use. BooYa!If something lands between Hard-Easy, it is not in need of rework. FPS players have to accept this, and have a model to base this on... otherwise factions get greedy or other factions want those factions to get nerfed... I'm not calling for a Scout nerf, or buff. I'm saying that they are not UP, nor OP. They are hard, but still playable the way they are in this game. Same argument is said for the Plasma Cannon, SCR, Shotgun, MLT/STD HAVs. Truth be told, the Flaylock and Md were nerfed because people cried to much. The weapons were fine, but people wanted them nerfed on principle. (Flaylocks were secondaries, thus should outdo Primaries... MDs don't need aim, thus they shouldn't out do SCRs and ARs)
1. if the scout suit is less effective, it is under performing against other suits that can do it's role a lot better. your just using "if he can kill in a scout suit, it's must not be UP" and think you are entitled to be right based on some people who learned some tactics, which can be done be any suit. if you want to measure WP and isk payout (which doesn't make any sense), then you must first use numbers from each game instead of just 1, as the numbers constantly change. don't use public matches either as they can skew your numbers since people aren't as good in pub matches.
2. if balance is impossible to achieve, why make the game at all if it's doomed to fail from the start? this game can achieve balance if done right, but everything needs to be looked over to see what is being used and how much. this game is only easy/hard as you want to make it, not by which suit you choose. don't confuse easy/hard with types of suits used, but instead with how you go about your tactics, since that is what determines how you do.
3. how did you make that chart? what numbers did you use? how did you get all the info for it? |
ShinyJay
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Posted - 2013.10.22 23:05:00 -
[3] - Quote
8213 wrote:Oswald Rehnquist wrote:1. You didn't prove that Scouts were UP, by my definition, and anyone's definition. You HAVE proven that they can be less effective. Less effective is not the same thing as UP. By the measuring standards in this game (WP and ISK Profit aka- make money, f*ck b*tches) Scouts have proven that they are capable of doing this well as other dropsuit setups. How ever they achieve that success is up to them. A) My definition holds up, yours does not, which I actually explain why, you can provide reasons why mine does not hold if you disagree. B) You counter point was literally "no no no", saying it isn't true doesn't make it so. C) I actually did not prove anything because neither I nor you have the raw data. CCP who actually owns all the data has confirmed and admitted to scouts under performing 8213 wrote:
2. Eventually, the balancing will have to stop, because achieving it is impossible(especially in a game like DUST where you strive to obtain and advantage). Eventually things have to be categorized as Easy/Medium/Hard if you want to compare them respectively to each other. Trying to give scouts equality (move them the to the Medium/Easy mode category) but keeping DUST the same overall format (Make money, f*ck b*tches) will only end in failure. Something has to stay in hard mode. Scouts seem to be that poor redheaded step-child because of the landscape of the game.
The game is not even near being done, and the scouts are hardly even fleshed out, we don't even have all the variants yet you think the breaks should be applied? Your only motive for putting any brakes on changes is to prevent the scout from growing as a whole, there really is no rational thought behind it when the game is still early in its infancy. 8213
3. I made a nice chart using a fine graphics programs. Basically, all the content in the game should (or come comes close to trying) break down on the chart as far as difficulty. If it's all the way to the left, its UP, if its all the way to the right its OP. Scouts are in the 2.5%. They are close to UP, but still lands on the chart of of how effective and difficult it is to use. [url=http://t.co/5dkAXNeWA2 wrote:BooYa![/url] This actually made me smile, because this shows that you don't know anything about statistics, and your are arguing with someone who's career evolves around stats. http://www.regentsprep.org/regents/math/algtrig/ATS2/NormalLesson.htmThis one should help you out too, Hard mode would be on the lower end of 1 standard deviation to about 1.5 standard deviations from what is normal. Anything that goes past 1.5 standard deviations, let alone past 2 standard deviations is beyond broken and unusable, While neither of us have the raw data, I don't think scouts are THAT broken be be ranked as 2 standard deviations down as what you have shown in the graph, which also bring up the point that I don't think you really even know the significance of the chart you have displayed, because it entirely shuts your own points down. Based on your graph, the scout effectiveness is literally less than 5% on that chart. If we were to turn this into sniper rifles, that is like a sniper rifle that does 100 damage and another that does 5 damage........ I'll leave you on that thought
Wow, I expected more from you... but you missed as well.
How I used the Curve was actually shown in the link you provided, so how did you read it wrong? I even saved you the diminishing return points because I covered them in the video I linked, and thought you knew better.
I can't talk with you anymore. You try to break down my arguments, but fail to provide your own reasons or suggestions.
Arguing, for arguing's sake. Do you remember what this thread is about?
CCP says that scouts have it hard. They will eventually attempt to move them to Medium or Easy. Then, the Commandos can have their turn to b*tch... have a good one.
i don't know if you're a Scout, or what role you play in this game, buy have fun and good luck. [/quote]
you also fail to bring in your own reasons why a scout doesn't need to be buffed, but instead use posts from others to try and back up your claim. maybe you are the one who missed points and not them. i play a scout suit a lot to learn different tactics and because i love the play style of it. i don't like that my role can be done by everything else much more effectively, in turn making my role as a scout ineffective. you tell me good sir, what is the role of a scout? follow up question for when you answer, can other suits do a scout's role effectively? |
ShinyJay
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Posted - 2013.10.23 00:44:00 -
[4] - Quote
8213 wrote:ShinyJay wrote:[quote=8213][quote=Oswald Rehnquist]
you also fail to bring in your own reasons why a scout doesn't need to be buffed, but instead use posts from others to try and back up your claim. maybe you are the one who missed points and not them. i play a scout suit a lot to learn different tactics and because i love the play style of it. i don't like that my role can be done by everything else much more effectively, in turn making my role as a scout ineffective. you tell me good sir, what is the role of a scout? follow up question for when you answer, can other suits do a scout's role effectively? My points and reasons were made in the 1st post of this thread, and well throughout it. Comparing yourself to the guy next to you gets you nowhere. At the end, you have to only look at yourself and judge it based on its own merits. Can a Medium do a Scouts job better? YES. Can a Heavy do a Medium's job better? YES. Can Logis do an Assaults job better? YES. The comparison model doesn't work, because then we would only have 1 suit, 1 weapon, no skills, 1 module, etc... (pssst... watch the video) I've already listed what advantages Scouts have in this game, that no other Frame has; big and small. I listed what roles they can do; big and small. Do your research and actually read it and think about it this time. Its on you to inform yourself of what I've said, my points, and the points of others in this thread. Stop making me repeat myself because you only skimmed bits and pieces and I have to fill you in on what you missed... If you have something to add to this thread, besides the comparison argument, then please do so already. Something new. Something that is going to make me say "gee, Scouts could use this, or that..." Others on here have done it (not that you would know that because you don't actually read and research anything) so it can be done.
the whole point of the comparison was to show you that a scout's role can be done by any other suit, but the scout can't do those other suit's role effectively. you have stated what a scout can do, yes, but not it's intended role. i did my research as i play a scout, a medium frame suit and a heavy (mostly scout). did you do your research? and i don't mean 1 game's worth of research, but 5 or more games. completely immerse yourself in the scout suit in all those games then come back and tell us how you feel scouts are. all i ever see are people who say "this suit is fine" or "that weapon is OP" without much effort put into it or only 1 games worth of playing. if you can't be bothered to dedicate more 5 games of playing as a scout, then you are just some nobody who thinks he is right |
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