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Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION
1404
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Posted - 2013.10.03 15:57:00 -
[211] - Quote
Rogue Saint wrote:Jack McReady wrote:what choice again? this argument was already busted millions of times, but please go on repeating the same nonsense over and over Either you are seriously dense or have zero understanding of the skill system. Is the skill system perfect? No, of course not. Are all the weapons evenly balanced? No. of course not. Will they be "fixed"? Yes, most definitely. Will you be happy with the fixes? No, you will QQ for a respec again. There are millions of choices you can make, both with your skills and the fittings. Weapon not cutting it? Dump on some damage mods and change your play style... You sir, should leave the game if you can't understand the choices available.
Even though I don't believe I can sway your line of thinking I'll proceed anyway.
This game is virtually a beta. The development has been delayed big times due to bumps in the road. Some items have been sitting untouched because of higher priority fixes for MONTHS.
I think it's safe to say that this game isn't 75% finished. By finished I mean FW, racial suits, weapons, and vehicle issues. I understand that this game will always evolve, but we have holes that we can see. There could be an expansion that brings new game modes and such, but with what we currently have you can see VOIDS.
Because of this and because of the ongoing core mechanics that are still being worked on I don't think you can implement the hardcore New Eden mentality at THIS TIME. I don't think we (all those with a vested interest in Dust) have that luxury. We have a playerbase that has been shrinking slowly and we are faced with a new generation console and huge games from established console developers on the horizon.
The people logging into this game I have to believe are largely vets with at least 10 million SP. A respec isn't going to turn this game upside down. I don't think it would even if there were a ton of OP items available to spec into, but this shouldn't be a worry because the game is as balanced from an infantry standpoint as it's EVER been (fellas the AR is the bedrock of any FPS).
And finally, this isn't Eve. It's time for people to accept the fact that on a console FPS this mentality will not appeal to a large enough player base to succeed. This game can still have the depth without running off a ton of people. |
DUST Fiend
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
6707
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 15:57:00 -
[212] - Quote
Fist Groinpunch wrote:95% of the time I use a TAR. Which is still a sick gun even after it was toned down by CCP.
As to respecs, its simple enough. Giving out respecs creates a FOTM culture. Cal Logi is the best suit, skill into that. Now they nerfed it, skill into Cal Assault. Huge armor buff? Everybody skill into Gal Assault now. And the same with the weapons. TAR OP? Yeah get some of that. When they nerf it, skill into flaylocks. Then when that weapon is painfully average lets all skill into the AR because the new hit scan mechanics make it unbeatable.
Respecs remove diversity in the game.
When there are no respecs, people have to live with their choices. Sure, some weapons/suits may not be as effective at point X, but they will be again after patch Y hits. Exactly the opposite, referring to the bolded and underlined.
Beieve it or not, only a small % of any given games player base are power gamers. Surprisingly enough, these players also tend to make up the "top" end of the spectrum.
What you describe as a fear (FOTM) I see as a brilliant opportunity for CCP to hammer out balance over the next 6 months or so. First and foremost, gamers gonna power game. If a game is actually balanced, then they will only ever attain a reasonable % advantage, instead of an I win. This means that in a balanced environment with plenty of choice and customization, no given fit will drastically overshadow and other given fit.
Move on to the fact that in DUST, player skill is the most important skill. I know plenty of monsters in this game, and in others. Hell, in pubs I AM a fiend most of the time (not always though ) and I just use militia garbage or advanced stuff 90% of the time, not counting my Ishukone because God gun is God gun
Respecs promote diversity because contrary to popular belief, people generally skill into things that they find fun, or to skill away from things that are impossibly infuriating...... |
Rogue Saint
Science For Death The Shadow Eclipse
278
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 16:02:00 -
[213] - Quote
Thor Odinson42 wrote: Even though I don't believe I can sway your line of thinking I'll proceed anyway.
This game is virtually a beta. The development has been delayed big times due to bumps in the road. Some items have been sitting untouched because of higher priority fixes for MONTHS.
I think it's safe to say that this game isn't 75% finished. By finished I mean FW, racial suits, weapons, and vehicle issues. I understand that this game will always evolve, but we have holes that we can see. There could be an expansion that brings new game modes and such, but with what we currently have you can see VOIDS.
Because of this and because of the ongoing core mechanics that are still being worked on I don't think you can implement the hardcore New Eden mentality at THIS TIME. I don't think we (all those with a vested interest in Dust) have that luxury. We have a playerbase that has been shrinking slowly and we are faced with a new generation console and huge games from established console developers on the horizon.
The people logging into this game I have to believe are largely vets with at least 10 million SP. A respec isn't going to turn this game upside down. I don't think it would even if there were a ton of OP items available to spec into, but this shouldn't be a worry because the game is as balanced from an infantry standpoint as it's EVER been (fellas the AR is the bedrock of any FPS).
And finally, this isn't Eve. It's time for people to accept the fact that on a console FPS this mentality will not appeal to a large enough player base to succeed. This game can still have the depth without running off a ton of people.
I agree and don't deny much of what you say. We have holes, we have core mechanic issues etc.
I just don't believe a respec will help, we would need multiple respecs to keep people happy. There will always be a group that wants another, so the cycle would continue.
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DUST Fiend
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
6708
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 16:06:00 -
[214] - Quote
Rogue Saint wrote:I agree and don't deny much of what you say. We have holes, we have core mechanic issues etc.
I just don't believe a respec will help, we would need multiple respecs to keep people happy. There will always be a group that wants another, so the cycle would continue.
Which is why I've always been a supporter of a slow and steady skill reallocation system, that gives everyone 1 buyback point per week of active play. That buyback point can be saved for as long as you like, and they stack. When selecting any skill that you have ranks in, another option will be present that says "Buyback". Clicking on that brings you to the buyback interface, which allows you to spend buyback points equal to or less than the total amount of SP in said skill.
Buying back X ranks takes X buyback points, which are gone forever once used. Any SP invested in said skill is returned to the players SP pool, and the skill ranks are reversed. The skill still remains unlocked, and you are thusly not refunded for you skill book. |
Fist Groinpunch
Goonfeet Top Men.
105
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 16:22:00 -
[215] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:Fist Groinpunch wrote:95% of the time I use a TAR. Which is still a sick gun even after it was toned down by CCP.
As to respecs, its simple enough. Giving out respecs creates a FOTM culture. Cal Logi is the best suit, skill into that. Now they nerfed it, skill into Cal Assault. Huge armor buff? Everybody skill into Gal Assault now. And the same with the weapons. TAR OP? Yeah get some of that. When they nerf it, skill into flaylocks. Then when that weapon is painfully average lets all skill into the AR because the new hit scan mechanics make it unbeatable.
Respecs remove diversity in the game.
When there are no respecs, people have to live with their choices. Sure, some weapons/suits may not be as effective at point X, but they will be again after patch Y hits. Exactly the opposite, referring to the bolded and underlined. Beieve it or not, only a small % of any given games player base are power gamers. Surprisingly enough, these players also tend to make up the "top" end of the spectrum. What you describe as a fear (FOTM) I see as a brilliant opportunity for CCP to hammer out balance over the next 6 months or so. First and foremost, gamers gonna power game. If a game is actually balanced, then they will only ever attain a reasonable % advantage, instead of an I win. This means that in a balanced environment with plenty of choice and customization, no given fit will drastically overshadow and other given fit. Move on to the fact that in DUST, player skill is the most important skill. I know plenty of monsters in this game, and in others. Hell, in pubs I AM a fiend most of the time (not always though ) and I just use militia garbage or advanced stuff 90% of the time, not counting my Ishukone because God gun is God gun Respecs promote diversity because contrary to popular belief, people generally skill into things that they find fun, or to skill away from things that are impossibly infuriating......
I don't know if I agree with you.
I think that if respecs were given out after every major rebalancing, the powergaming tryhards would move their SP into whatever the optimal suit/weapon/vehicle is, and would go back to pubstomping in their optimal fits. And then many average players would follow suit, thinking that its the suit/weapon that makes the tryhards so good, and we'd have less diversity.
So for example, if a respec were given out tomorrow, I imagine that a majority of the player base would change to Gal/Cal assaults armed with ARs. Most of the scouts and heavies would change over, and many of the vehicle pilots too. And while that would quickly show CCP where the perceived imbalance is, it would make for a really dull game in the mean time.
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Surt gods end
Demon Ronin
1112
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 16:30:00 -
[216] - Quote
SILENTSAM 69 wrote:If by "save" you mean "ruin" then I agree. It would lower the standard of the game at least.
*This game has standards?*
LOL |
Jack McReady
DUST University Ivy League
611
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 16:40:00 -
[217] - Quote
Fist Groinpunch wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:Fist Groinpunch wrote:95% of the time I use a TAR. Which is still a sick gun even after it was toned down by CCP.
As to respecs, its simple enough. Giving out respecs creates a FOTM culture. Cal Logi is the best suit, skill into that. Now they nerfed it, skill into Cal Assault. Huge armor buff? Everybody skill into Gal Assault now. And the same with the weapons. TAR OP? Yeah get some of that. When they nerf it, skill into flaylocks. Then when that weapon is painfully average lets all skill into the AR because the new hit scan mechanics make it unbeatable.
Respecs remove diversity in the game.
When there are no respecs, people have to live with their choices. Sure, some weapons/suits may not be as effective at point X, but they will be again after patch Y hits. Exactly the opposite, referring to the bolded and underlined. Beieve it or not, only a small % of any given games player base are power gamers. Surprisingly enough, these players also tend to make up the "top" end of the spectrum. What you describe as a fear (FOTM) I see as a brilliant opportunity for CCP to hammer out balance over the next 6 months or so. First and foremost, gamers gonna power game. If a game is actually balanced, then they will only ever attain a reasonable % advantage, instead of an I win. This means that in a balanced environment with plenty of choice and customization, no given fit will drastically overshadow and other given fit. Move on to the fact that in DUST, player skill is the most important skill. I know plenty of monsters in this game, and in others. Hell, in pubs I AM a fiend most of the time (not always though ) and I just use militia garbage or advanced stuff 90% of the time, not counting my Ishukone because God gun is God gun Respecs promote diversity because contrary to popular belief, people generally skill into things that they find fun, or to skill away from things that are impossibly infuriating...... I don't know if I agree with you. I think that if respecs were given out after every major rebalancing, the powergaming tryhards would move their SP into whatever the optimal suit/weapon/vehicle is, and would go back to pubstomping in their optimal fits. And then many average players would follow suit, thinking that its the suit/weapon that makes the tryhards so good, and we'd have less diversity. So for example, if a respec were given out tomorrow, I imagine that a majority of the player base would change to Gal/Cal assaults armed with ARs. Most of the scouts and heavies would change over, and many of the vehicle pilots too. And while that would quickly show CCP where the perceived imbalance is, it would make for a really dull game in the mean time. are we playing the same game? people already run cal/gal with duvolles they wont skill into anything else cause it risky due to miriads of reasons already stated plenty of times.
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Fist Groinpunch
Goonfeet Top Men.
105
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 16:52:00 -
[218] - Quote
There will be even more Duvolle-armed Gal/Cal assaults then there are now, because scouts and heavies will skill into them too. And a bunch of Minmatar/Amarr players.
And why would players skill into sub-optimal suits/weapons if they got a respec? This is a competitive game. Playing at a disadvantage will make you die more. |
Kigurosaka Laaksonen
DUST University Ivy League
19
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 16:55:00 -
[219] - Quote
Here's a shameless promotion for a thread on the topic with some well presented arguments.
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=113419 |
DUST Fiend
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
6711
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 16:58:00 -
[220] - Quote
Fist Groinpunch wrote:There will be even more Duvolle-armed Gal/Cal assaults then there are now, because scouts and heavies will skill into them too. And a bunch of Minmatar/Amarr players.
And why would players skill into sub-optimal suits/weapons if they got a respec? This is a competitive game. Playing at a disadvantage will make you die more. As I've mentioned, power gamers will power game. You know what the power gamers are doing? Investing their SP in "optimal" things. Respecs don't change this, they only up the ante because it allows other people to play something more optimally, or more to their liking. There is already pretty miniscule diversity just in terms of what we have to run and how minute the differences really tend to be.
I for one would welcome the challenge, although I will back up in the skies for the rest of my time with DUST, be it a few months, a few years, or more. I already crap all over pubs using militia gear and I've never entered a PC match that hasn't frozen my PS3 in the first few minutes. So.
Yea, power gamers will power game, and surprise surprise, they already have been.
There is no competition in most of this game because most of this games population SUCKS.
(sorry blueberries, <3 you) |
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Tebu Gan
CrimeWave Syndicate
127
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 17:59:00 -
[221] - Quote
Rogue Saint wrote:Jack McReady wrote:what choice again? this argument was already busted millions of times, but please go on repeating the same nonsense over and over Either you are seriously dense or have zero understanding of the skill system. Is the skill system perfect? No, of course not. Are all the weapons evenly balanced? No. of course not. Will they be "fixed"? Yes, most definitely. Will you be happy with the fixes? No, you will QQ for a respec again. There are millions of choices you can make, both with your skills and the fittings. Weapon not cutting it? Dump on some damage mods and change your play style... You sir, should leave the game if you can't understand the choices available.
What makes you think that everyone will simply go for what is "the best".
That is not what a respec is about, your are clearly deluded.
I personally have used a assault rifle/ tank since may. Now I want to be a logi, that does not use an assult rifle.
This has got to be blowing your mind, I want to be a Caldari logi.
Mind blown yet. |
DUST Fiend
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
6716
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 18:32:00 -
[222] - Quote
Tebu Gan wrote:This has got to be blowing your mind, I want to be a Caldari logi.
Mind blown yet. I would go for the horrendously OP logistics support dropship role, with a prime focus on logistics. I will do so even with only a Grimsnes, because I'm a fuckin boss pilot, and I will rep all the doodz. |
noob cavman
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
94
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 19:03:00 -
[223] - Quote
Heavy and scout. Because I like contrast |
KING CHECKMATE
TEAM SATISFACTION
1532
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 21:39:00 -
[224] - Quote
If i get a respec i will probably go Proto Commando Or Proto amarr assault. Also invest HEAVILY in vehicles. Probably shield tanks.
talk about FOTM. |
Luk Manag
of Terror TRE GAFFEL
103
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 22:23:00 -
[225] - Quote
KING CHECKMATE wrote:Lightning Bolt2 wrote:Kody Cole wrote:Giving a respec in 1.5 or at least 1.6 would save the game for a lot of players Personally I'd only change a few things I'd still be the same class. It's just over time you changed a lot and I don't need some skills and I need new ones. Hell I'd take a free respec every 6 months or pay arum to ge One with a cool down if I got a respec, I would do what I should've done in the first place, get cal assaults with gal ARs! (and ofc join the QQ army) [EDIT] I specced into scouts nerfed since... ummmmm.... release! Dude i was owning with Proto Scram and Proto Assault Amarr and when we got the respec in speccd into Scouts : / so i feel you...
Now I understand. With the advent of auto-aim, speed doesn't mean as much as raw HP. We should be talking about buffing scouts, not giving up on scouts to try other things. Given the weaknesses of stealth, why not give the scout more HP? My little brother plays a proto-scout, and it mostly isn't useful except in a few special cases (activities that don't involve brawls with lots of bullets flying around). Scouts as a class might make more sense if there were larger matches (32v32), but as it is, a winning team can't really afford more than one or two scouts. If they ever get their active camouflage, and it works well enough to enhance their surviveability in an auto-aim brawl, it might work, but right now, a winning team needs heavy hitters.
Jack makes a good point too - about vehicle changes - I would be upset if I was focused on assault dropships and they announced they would be removed for an unspecified period as part of some 'back-to-the-basics' design scheme. That's just sad. It clearly announces that the original plan has been scrapped, and instead of tweaking numbers, they're just going to start over and try again. In light of this, I would be OK with some type of respec-option, as long as it was clearly defined as an (apology)/(thank you) to the testers, and not a permanent element of the game design. |
KING CHECKMATE
TEAM SATISFACTION
1534
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 22:28:00 -
[226] - Quote
Luk Manag wrote:
Now I understand. With the advent of auto-aim, speed doesn't mean as much as raw HP. We should be talking about buffing scouts, not giving up on scouts to try other things. Given the weaknesses of stealth, why not give the scout more HP? My little brother plays a proto-scout, and it mostly isn't useful except in a few special cases (activities that don't involve brawls with lots of bullets flying around). Scouts as a class might make more sense if there were larger matches (32v32), but as it is, a winning team can't really afford more than one or two scouts. If they ever get their active camouflage, and it works well enough to enhance their surviveability in an auto-aim brawl, it might work, but right now, a winning team needs heavy hitters.
Jack makes a good point too - about vehicle changes - I would be upset if I was focused on assault dropships and they announced they would be removed for an unspecified period as part of some 'back-to-the-basics' design scheme. That's just sad. It clearly announces that the original plan has been scrapped, and instead of tweaking numbers, they're just going to start over and try again. In light of this, I would be OK with some type of respec-option, as long as it was clearly defined as an (apology)/(thank you) to the testers, and not a permanent element of the game design.
Thanks for the simpathy, but good scouts are not F****d over because of Aim assist. I can still rip apart any heavy with my Ishi SMG in matter of seconds. We are f**** over because now every logi ( -+ of every enemy team) Carries Proto Active scanners. Me myself as a Proto Minnie + (i HAD TO use 1 of my only 2 low slots for this, while logis sacrifice 1 out of 3-4...) Proto Profile dampener STILL get scanned -++ of the time.
Remove Active scanners or make them scout only and scouts will have a fighting chance.
Never the less, if i get a respec,as i mentioned before , im thinking taking of another path. Some people liek o chancge play styles every now and then.... |
Talos Alomar
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1611
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 22:36:00 -
[227] - Quote
KING CHECKMATE wrote:Luk Manag wrote:
Now I understand. With the advent of auto-aim, speed doesn't mean as much as raw HP. We should be talking about buffing scouts, not giving up on scouts to try other things. Given the weaknesses of stealth, why not give the scout more HP? My little brother plays a proto-scout, and it mostly isn't useful except in a few special cases (activities that don't involve brawls with lots of bullets flying around). Scouts as a class might make more sense if there were larger matches (32v32), but as it is, a winning team can't really afford more than one or two scouts. If they ever get their active camouflage, and it works well enough to enhance their surviveability in an auto-aim brawl, it might work, but right now, a winning team needs heavy hitters.
Jack makes a good point too - about vehicle changes - I would be upset if I was focused on assault dropships and they announced they would be removed for an unspecified period as part of some 'back-to-the-basics' design scheme. That's just sad. It clearly announces that the original plan has been scrapped, and instead of tweaking numbers, they're just going to start over and try again. In light of this, I would be OK with some type of respec-option, as long as it was clearly defined as an (apology)/(thank you) to the testers, and not a permanent element of the game design.
Thanks for the simpathy, but good scouts are not F****d over because of Aim assist. I can still rip apart any heavy with my Ishi SMG in matter of seconds. We are f**** over because now every logi ( -+ of every enemy team) Carries Proto Active scanners. Me myself as a Proto Minnie + (i HAD TO use 1 of my only 2 low slots for this, while logis sacrifice 1 out of 3-4...) Proto Profile dampener STILL get scanned -++ of the time. Remove Active scanners or make them scout only and scouts will have a fighting chance. Never the less, if i get a respec,as i mentioned before , im thinking taking of another path. Some people like o change play styles every now and then....
A better option than removing or changing active scanners would be to lower the scout's profile (not all light frames - just the scout suit.) to be able to beat most scanners.
I'd flip the **** out if active scanners got messed with too much, but running a stable active scanner shouldn't let me ping pretty much every scout out there. |
PEW JACKSON
s i n g u l a r i t y
66
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 22:36:00 -
[228] - Quote
With a respec I'll be maxing both scouts.
Gallente for sniping/recon, stealth ops. Minnie for hit & run, kamikaze, smg r@pe fest, and uplink runner.
I feel dirty when I kill a scout in my assault suit.....
I do think CCP needs to do that game-wide respec the same as when Uprising first hit. |
KING CHECKMATE
TEAM SATISFACTION
1534
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 22:40:00 -
[229] - Quote
Talos Alomar wrote:
A better option than removing or changing active scanners would be to lower the scout's profile (not all light frames - just the scout suit.) to be able to beat most scanners.
I'd flip the **** out if active scanners got messed with too much, but running a stable active scanner shouldn't let me ping pretty much every scout out there.
At proto level, a scout should NEVER be detected. Period. Its their thing! even their bonus.
But you are right
Another option is increasing their bonus gain:
-10% reduction to profile per level. |
PEW JACKSON
s i n g u l a r i t y
68
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 22:42:00 -
[230] - Quote
KING CHECKMATE wrote:Talos Alomar wrote:
A better option than removing or changing active scanners would be to lower the scout's profile (not all light frames - just the scout suit.) to be able to beat most scanners.
I'd flip the **** out if active scanners got messed with too much, but running a stable active scanner shouldn't let me ping pretty much every scout out there.
At proto level, a scout should NEVER be detected. Period. Its their thing! even their bonus. But you are rightAnother option is increasing their bonus gain: -10% reduction to profile per level.
That or reduce the suits db to 40. With dampening and the scout's skill maxed you can passively avoid the 28 db scanner. |
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KING CHECKMATE
TEAM SATISFACTION
1534
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 22:43:00 -
[231] - Quote
PEW JACKSON wrote:With a respec I'll be maxing both scouts.
Gallente for sniping/recon, stealth ops. Minnie for hit & run, kamikaze, smg r@pe fest, and uplink runner.
I feel dirty when I kill a scout in my assault suit.....
I do think CCP needs to do that game-wide respec the same as when Uprising first hit.
I would LOVE to spend ALL my 16 mil in Commando. See if i can do something with that suit.
Probably would run 1 cx shield Ext , 1 Cs Light damage mod , 1 Kin Kat, Rep Nanos and (Swarms + Gek) or (ARSC + /Mass)
I would suck so bad, but im sure it would be fun....
@pew jackson, a scout at proto level with 1 ADV profile dampner ,should be able to evade ALL scanners. ALL .... SCANNERS....
XD |
PEW JACKSON
s i n g u l a r i t y
68
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 22:44:00 -
[232] - Quote
KING CHECKMATE wrote:
I would LOVE to spend ALL my 16 mil in Commando. See if i can do something with that suit.
Probably would run 1 cx shield Ext , 1 Cs Light damage mod , 1 Kin Kat, Rep Nanos and (Swarms + Gek) or (ARSC + /Mass)
I would suck so bad, but im sure it would be fun....
@pew jackson, a scout at proto level with 1 ADV profile dampner ,should be able to evade ALL scanners. ALL .... SCANNERS....
XD
Run dual PLC |
8213
Grade No.2
325
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 22:44:00 -
[233] - Quote
I want a Respec until something gets changed and then want another Respec!
Maybe more Options are in order. |
Godin Thekiller
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
1060
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 22:46:00 -
[234] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:Tebu Gan wrote:This has got to be blowing your mind, I want to be a Caldari logi.
Mind blown yet. I would go for the horrendously OP logistics support dropship role, with a prime focus on logistics. I will do so even with only a Grimsnes, because I'm a fuckin boss pilot, and I will rep all the doodz.
I want to melt your kids for saying such a thing |
KING CHECKMATE
TEAM SATISFACTION
1534
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 22:46:00 -
[235] - Quote
PEW JACKSON wrote:Run dual PLC
TAC + AR = OP LOL
Or Exo mass + Assault Mass XD |
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