before you read anything else please note. AIM ASSIST IS NOT THE PROBLEM!

the real problem lies in the fact that HIT DETECTION ( a good thing, a very good thing) now makes it so that the full dps of the AR registers all the time. AR dps is too high. (hit dection is a good thing, the improved hit detection proves how OP ARs are).


the AR without the aid of teamates or grenades, can pretty much win a 1v1 gun fit verses any suit in the game in 3 seconds or less (often less) in and beyond its effective range. .
plus:

• ars never over heat
• have enough ammo to get 13 kills without need of supply depot
• have marginally less dps than an HMG without any dispersion
• no recoil
• benefits the most from auto aim
• has the best CPU/PG for suits. allowing maximum tanking
• does 110 to shields and 95 to armor giving the best effective damage dealt.
• is undisputed out to 75m
• renders scrambler rifles obsolete due to its accuracy upto 88m
• can take maximum advantage of headshots (due to high dps AND high accuracy)
• have one of the fastest reloads and reload cancels
• extremely good hip fire
• don't suffer from hit detection issues as bad due to the high damage pershot and dps, and low dispersion. in fact it benefits from hit detection the most. (hit detection itself is good, the AR is OP)

the maximum ehp a heavy in this game can haavy is 1591. a militia AR without damage mods, or proficiency does 467 (425 dps * the 1.1 multiplier CCP gave all weapons). (this is 12.5 shots per second. your clip has 48 bullets, you do 1795.2 hp in one clip. it takes you 3.8 seconds to unload a clip)

So, a militia ARs time to kill a proto heavy with max ehp, in its effective range is:
1591hp/467hp damage per second = 3.4 seconds.

your average heavy has around 1100 ehp. so, a militia ARs TTK would be:
1100/467 = 2.4 seconds

a milita heavy frame has 800 ehp. TTk from a miita AR would be:
800/467 = 1.7 seconds.


if you use 2 complex damage mods with a duvolle AR, and have proficiency your dps is 681 (my f*cking god its an HMG!). that is an equivilent of 49.5 damage pershot (as a side note the breach AR does 51 per shot. so your duvolle basically has the damage pershot of a breach with the rpm of a militia ar)
you can drop a heavy with 1591 ehp in 2.3 seconds .

your average heavy with 1100 ehp dies in 1.6 seconds .

H*ll a militia AR even out dps's the AFG everyone is complaining about. AFG does 1381 damage every 4 seconds of charge up time. in 4 seconds time a milita AR has done 1868.
[list]

467@1second, 934 @ 2 seconds, 1401 @ 3 seconds, 1868 @ 4 seconds = militia AR (militia Ar ends its clip in 3.8)

0@1 second, 0 @ 2 seconds, 0 @ 3 seconds, 1381 @ 4 seconds = Assault forge gun DU/A

further references:
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=98633
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1214687#post1214687
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1208329#post1208329
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1264972#post1264972
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=104295&find=unread
if you think this is a wall of text or didn't understand this just happened to you .

If TL;DR and your an AR noob that want s to comment everyone will do this

AR NEEDS ITS DPS NERFED TO 340 or less.

I bet there was more than one.

Your links and math title attracted me ... you wouldn't happen to have a spreadsheet as well?

Signed. +1 the AR has been out of balance since mordu's trials.This thread will do nothing because this community is caustic and only concerned about their self interest not making a better game. Dust fiend trumpeted this same message last year to deaf ears.

This game had a perfect TTK rate prior to 1.4. This update has totally ruined the flow of the game and skills and gear mean virtually nothing now. A noob with less than 1 mil SP and a militia AR is a more viable killer than a 20 mil SP player with a proto suit and proto MD. This is insane.

Character development is dead.

ar is fine just remove the damage mods for them...the std ar the mlt ar and the gek is fine...

u can nerf the proto tier to hell for all i care just leave adv and the less alone...

plus if the ar is the most powerful gun in the game then explain to me why we still see all of the other guns getting kills all of the guns have had an equal deadliness when used correctly..

in truth the ar is only truly deadly if proficiency skill is maxed...

but it doesnt require a massive nerf.. lets think of that laser rifle before uprising it was perfect the way it was but every1 was hating getting killed by it so much it was nerfed into useless ness and now we have improved hit detection and aimassist along with a new sight for the laser and now its almost barely able to get kills now...

and ppl still suck at aiming when it comes to the ar...


the ar is the most versatile weapon on the battle field which is why its one of the most common weapons on the battlefield..

and seeing how its every players starting weapon would mean it would get alot more bitching if this weapon did get nerfed...

the tac ar has been nerfed..

not in damage but in smaller clipsize and lower rof...

the ar seems some what fine as its about as deadly as every other gun in the game...

the only thing to blame here is the improved hit detection and damage mods...

and the extremely high total hp that med suits can reach..

its the starter weapon for all the new players to the game what do u expect?


it isnt a master of all trades..


pure math isnt going to mean a certain gun is op...

there r med suits that can get more armor and shielding than a heavy suit..

the hmg can actually kill lavs..

this is one thing the ar cant do but isnt that important..

the ar does not shoot exploding rounds...

it does the same damage shields and armor..

ppl will still miss alot of the time...

the amount of kills players get with certain weapons in the kill feed isnt going to prove its op..


the laser rifle as i mentioned earlier would have been a great counter to majority of ar users..

before uprising...

but it was nerfed to suit the proto bears..

i see players pubstomp with ars shot guns.. forge guns..

hmgs..

smgs..

mass drivers..

sniper rifles...

tanks..

zerg tactics...


just about everything...

u also need to take player skill into account as well...

the ar would be the hardest of all weapons to nerf..

the tac ar was op before it was nerfed..

it still can obliterate...

the ar cant do everything its just versatile..

and very common...

its also the only weapon that most new players r familiar with.

its not really the gun that should get the nerfs..

its the things added to the gun that should be getting the nerfs..

You're wrong.
Insta-kill = Any kill that is instant, i.e. happens in one shot.

before you read anything else please note. AIM ASSIST IS NOT THE PROBLEM!

the real problem lies in the fact that HIT DETECTION ( a good thing, a very good thing) now makes it so that the full dps of the AR registers all the time. AR dps is too high. (hit dection is a good thing, the improved hit detection proves how OP ARs are).


the AR without the aid of teamates or grenades, can pretty much win a 1v1 gun fit verses any suit in the game in 3 seconds or less (often less) in and beyond its effective range. .
plus:

• ars never over heat
• have enough ammo to get 13 kills without need of supply depot
• have marginally less dps than an HMG without any dispersion
• no recoil
• benefits the most from auto aim
• has the best CPU/PG for suits. allowing maximum tanking
• does 110 to shields and 95 to armor giving the best effective damage dealt.
• is undisputed out to 75m
• renders scrambler rifles obsolete due to its accuracy upto 88m
• can take maximum advantage of headshots (due to high dps AND high accuracy)
• have one of the fastest reloads and reload cancels
• extremely good hip fire
• don't suffer from hit detection issues as bad due to the high damage pershot and dps, and low dispersion. in fact it benefits from hit detection the most. (hit detection itself is good, the AR is OP)

the maximum ehp a heavy in this game can haavy is 1591. a militia AR without damage mods, or proficiency does 467 (425 dps * the 1.1 multiplier CCP gave all weapons). (this is 12.5 shots per second. your clip has 48 bullets, you do 1795.2 hp in one clip. it takes you 3.8 seconds to unload a clip)

So, a militia ARs time to kill a proto heavy with max ehp, in its effective range is:
1591hp/467hp damage per second = 3.4 seconds.

your average heavy has around 1100 ehp. so, a militia ARs TTK would be:
1100/467 = 2.4 seconds

a milita heavy frame has 800 ehp. TTk from a miita AR would be:
800/467 = 1.7 seconds.


if you use 2 complex damage mods with a duvolle AR, and have proficiency your dps is 681 (my f*cking god its an HMG!). that is an equivilent of 49.5 damage pershot (as a side note the breach AR does 51 per shot. so your duvolle basically has the damage pershot of a breach with the rpm of a militia ar)
you can drop a heavy with 1591 ehp in 2.3 seconds .

your average heavy with 1100 ehp dies in 1.6 seconds .

H*ll a militia AR even out dps's the AFG everyone is complaining about. AFG does 1381 damage every 4 seconds of charge up time. in 4 seconds time a milita AR has done 1868.
[list]

467@1second, 934 @ 2 seconds, 1401 @ 3 seconds, 1868 @ 4 seconds = militia AR (militia Ar ends its clip in 3.8)

0@1 second, 0 @ 2 seconds, 0 @ 3 seconds, 1381 @ 4 seconds = Assault forge gun DU/A

further references:
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=98633
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1214687#post1214687
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1208329#post1208329
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1264972#post1264972
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=104295&find=unread
if you think this is a wall of text or didn't understand this just happened to you .

If TL;DR and your an AR noob that want s to comment everyone will do this

AR NEEDS ITS DPS NERFED TO 340 or less.

shoulnt that heavy be stacking more armor than shield in his build if ARs are the problem? all i read from this is "dont shield tank a heavy"

I disagree with your maths. Your solution. And your examples.

However. And please ladies and gentlemen hide your children... i do "kind of" agree with 'D legendary hero's' first 3 lines.

So if i may try my hand at re wording things...

Hit detection has changed how many weapons apply their damage. AR's, SMG's, Scrambler rifles, and HMG's are the prime examples (but not restricted too). However it has changed their effectiveness in different ways.

AR's due to their inherent accuracy are now applying a greater amount of their dmg, at all ranges, and more consistently.

SMG's are now applying a greater amount of dmg, at their optimal, where their dispersion is not so much of an issue. Due also to their high rate of fire, this dmg is applied quickly, which makes them extremely effective at CQ.

SR's are registering hits more often. Dmg output is up. Imperial scramble rifles with complex dmg mods are very very scary.

The HMG is now hitting. At Optimal ranges, the close to full dps can be applied like a huge multi barrelled machine gun should... which is a lot.
However the dispersion is now a major factor in applied dps. At marginally longer ranges the number of bullets hitting drops exponentially. Hitting is "easier", but the amount hitting is less. Especially if the target is not cantered.
In CQ, if you can keep the bead on target, you hit for 100% (please insert moving matrix style jumpy target), if not you do 0.

This is what i have found. No numbers needed, no comparison. I even tried to be un-bias.

Agreed, although I hardly feel this amounts to ARs being over powered. The argument that D is putting forth is that "only an AR" is benefitting from the changes, which it is clearly not.

The reason why AR users vehemently oppose changes such as lowering overall dps of the AR to make it weaker is that previously it has been at a severe disadvantage at many ranges verses many different weapons depending on the range. Now it is useful when used correctly at the appropriate mid range and only slightly less useful at CQ. This has led to an upswing in it's usage along with the plentiful BPOs available for purchase meaning that additional deaths don't affect a merc's in game isk as much (Duvolles still cost 77k isk).