DUST Search - The official nerf AR thread with links and math

D legendary hero wrote:

before you read anything else please note. AIM ASSIST IS NOT THE PROBLEM!

the real problem lies in the fact that HIT DETECTION ( a good thing, a very good thing) now makes it so that the full dps of the AR registers all the time. AR dps is too high. (hit dection is a good thing, the improved hit detection proves how OP ARs are).

the AR without the aid of teamates or grenades, can pretty much win a 1v1 gun fit verses any suit in the game in 3 seconds or less (often less) in and beyond its effective range. .
plus:

ars never over heat
have enough ammo to get 13 kills without need of supply depot
have marginally less dps than an HMG without any dispersion
no recoil
benefits the most from auto aim
has the best CPU/PG for suits. allowing maximum tanking
does 110 to shields and 95 to armor giving the best effective damage dealt.
is undisputed out to 75m
renders scrambler rifles obsolete due to its accuracy upto 88m
can take maximum advantage of headshots (due to high dps AND high accuracy)
have one of the fastest reloads and reload cancels
extremely good hip fire
don't suffer from hit detection issues as bad due to the high damage pershot and dps, and low dispersion. in fact it benefits from hit detection the most. (hit detection itself is good, the AR is OP)

the maximum ehp a heavy in this game can haavy is 1591. a militia AR without damage mods, or proficiency does 467 (425 dps * the 1.1 multiplier CCP gave all weapons). (this is 12.5 shots per second. your clip has 48 bullets, you do 1795.2 hp in one clip. it takes you 3.8 seconds to unload a clip)

So, a militia ARs time to kill a proto heavy with max ehp, in its effective range is:
1591hp/467hp damage per second = 3.4 seconds.

your average heavy has around 1100 ehp. so, a militia ARs TTK would be:
1100/467 = 2.4 seconds

a milita heavy frame has 800 ehp. TTk from a miita AR would be:
800/467 = 1.7 seconds.

if you use 2 complex damage mods with a duvolle AR, and have proficiency your dps is 681 (my f*cking god its an HMG!). that is an equivilent of 49.5 damage pershot (as a side note the breach AR does 51 per shot. so your duvolle basically has the damage pershot of a breach with the rpm of a militia ar)
you can drop a heavy with 1591 ehp in 2.3 seconds .

your average heavy with 1100 ehp dies in 1.6 seconds .

H*ll a militia AR even out dps's the AFG everyone is complaining about. AFG does 1381 damage every 4 seconds of charge up time. in 4 seconds time a milita AR has done 1868.
[list]

467@1second, 934 @ 2 seconds, 1401 @ 3 seconds, 1868 @ 4 seconds = militia AR (militia Ar ends its clip in 3.8)

0@1 second, 0 @ 2 seconds, 0 @ 3 seconds, 1381 @ 4 seconds = Assault forge gun DU/A

further references:
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=98633
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1214687#post1214687
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1208329#post1208329
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1264972#post1264972
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=104295&find=unread
if you think this is a wall of text or didn't understand this just happened to you .

If TL;DR and your an AR noob that want s to comment everyone will do this

AR NEEDS ITS DPS NERFED TO 340 or less.


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Draco Cerberus Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 302	Posted - 2013.09.08 14:04:00 - [1] - Quote D legendary hero wrote: before you read anything else please note. AIM ASSIST IS NOT THE PROBLEM! the real problem lies in the fact that HIT DETECTION ( a good thing, a very good thing) now makes it so that the full dps of the AR registers all the time. AR dps is too high. (hit dection is a good thing, the improved hit detection proves how OP ARs are). the AR without the aid of teamates or grenades, can pretty much win a 1v1 gun fit verses any suit in the game in 3 seconds or less (often less) in and beyond its effective range. . plus: ars never over heat have enough ammo to get 13 kills without need of supply depot have marginally less dps than an HMG without any dispersion no recoil benefits the most from auto aim has the best CPU/PG for suits. allowing maximum tanking does 110 to shields and 95 to armor giving the best effective damage dealt. is undisputed out to 75m renders scrambler rifles obsolete due to its accuracy upto 88m can take maximum advantage of headshots (due to high dps AND high accuracy) have one of the fastest reloads and reload cancels extremely good hip fire don't suffer from hit detection issues as bad due to the high damage pershot and dps, and low dispersion. in fact it benefits from hit detection the most. (hit detection itself is good, the AR is OP) the maximum ehp a heavy in this game can haavy is 1591. a militia AR without damage mods, or proficiency does 467 (425 dps * the 1.1 multiplier CCP gave all weapons). (this is 12.5 shots per second. your clip has 48 bullets, you do 1795.2 hp in one clip. it takes you 3.8 seconds to unload a clip) So, a militia ARs time to kill a proto heavy with max ehp, in its effective range is: 1591hp/467hp damage per second = 3.4 seconds. your average heavy has around 1100 ehp. so, a militia ARs TTK would be: 1100/467 = 2.4 seconds a milita heavy frame has 800 ehp. TTk from a miita AR would be: 800/467 = 1.7 seconds. if you use 2 complex damage mods with a duvolle AR, and have proficiency your dps is 681 (my fcking god its an HMG!). that is an equivilent of 49.5 damage pershot (as a side note the breach AR does 51 per shot. so your duvolle basically has the damage pershot of a breach with the rpm of a militia ar) you can drop a heavy with 1591 ehp in 2.3 seconds* . your average heavy with 1100 ehp dies in 1.6 seconds . H*ll a militia AR even out dps's the AFG everyone is complaining about. AFG does 1381 damage every 4 seconds of charge up time. in 4 seconds time a milita AR has done 1868. [list] 467@1second, 934 @ 2 seconds, 1401 @ 3 seconds, 1868 @ 4 seconds = militia AR (militia Ar ends its clip in 3.8) 0@1 second, 0 @ 2 seconds, 0 @ 3 seconds, 1381 @ 4 seconds = Assault forge gun DU/A further references: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=98633 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1214687#post1214687 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1208329#post1208329 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1264972#post1264972 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=104295&find=unread if you think this is a wall of text or didn't understand this just happened to you . If TL;DR and your an AR noob that want s to comment everyone will do this AR NEEDS ITS DPS NERFED TO 340 or less. So after a heavy hand balancing ARs you still think that this is needed? I believe your math is inaccurate. As squishy as every one is right now it is quite nice to see other people who use the AR dying to it. My Mass Driver still kills people just as quickly as an AR. I have not had any more deaths this build than any of the others, still not seeing a problem.
Draco Cerberus Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 307	Posted - 2013.09.10 14:14:00 - [2] - Quote ChromeBreaker wrote: I disagree with your maths. Your solution. And your examples. However. And please ladies and gentlemen hide your children... i do "kind of" agree with 'D legendary hero's' first 3 lines. So if i may try my hand at re wording things... Hit detection has changed how many weapons apply their damage. AR's, SMG's, Scrambler rifles, and HMG's are the prime examples (but not restricted too). However it has changed their effectiveness in different ways. AR's due to their inherent accuracy are now applying a greater amount of their dmg, at all ranges, and more consistently. SMG's are now applying a greater amount of dmg, at their optimal, where their dispersion is not so much of an issue. Due also to their high rate of fire, this dmg is applied quickly, which makes them extremely effective at CQ. SR's are registering hits more often. Dmg output is up. Imperial scramble rifles with complex dmg mods are very very scary. The HMG is now hitting. At Optimal ranges, the close to full dps can be applied like a huge multi barrelled machine gun should... which is a lot. However the dispersion is now a major factor in applied dps. At marginally longer ranges the number of bullets hitting drops exponentially. Hitting is "easier", but the amount hitting is less. Especially if the target is not cantered. In CQ, if you can keep the bead on target, you hit for 100% (please insert moving matrix style jumpy target), if not you do 0. This is what i have found. No numbers needed, no comparison. I even tried to be un-bias. Agreed, although I hardly feel this amounts to ARs being over powered. The argument that D is putting forth is that "only an AR" is benefitting from the changes, which it is clearly not. The reason why AR users vehemently oppose changes such as lowering overall dps of the AR to make it weaker is that previously it has been at a severe disadvantage at many ranges verses many different weapons depending on the range. Now it is useful when used correctly at the appropriate mid range and only slightly less useful at CQ. This has led to an upswing in it's usage along with the plentiful BPOs available for purchase meaning that additional deaths don't affect a merc's in game isk as much (Duvolles still cost 77k isk).