not only did I counter all your arguments 8 pages ago. but i thoroughly explained that the 10% bonus given all weapons after uprising when the HMG got its damage per shot increased from 12 to 18, applied to all weapons at that time.

all weapons released after that did not get this bonus.

so yes 425 * 1.1 = 467.
learn basic math bro, stay in school.

in addition, your videos hardly prove much. there were no enemies. but what the second one did prove is that the side to side, and up and down recoil on the scrambler is greater than that of the AR.

you still failed to explain how a milita grade AR should do 71% of an HMGs dps, with non of the drawbacks.
you have failed to explain how 3 seconds TTK for a heavy with proto shields and armor using a milita AR is balanced.
you have failed.

your arguments about the CPU/PG are baseless because PG/CPU can be reduced on the AR as well. face the facts. Go to the dust fitting tool and tell me you can't fit more on a suit with a GEK than on a suit with an Assault scrambler.

Your fail in this D Legend is so bad I dont even know where to begin...but lets start here.

34 is the dmg that the militia AR does and this includes the 10% damage bonus that all weapons received months ago. They are built into the actual stats now so you cant go arbitrarily adding 10% dmg bonus because you like to skew your numbers (BTW if you give the militia AR a 10% dmg then why not the ASCR in your numbers? LOL logic). You should not diss other people in math when they have it correct because they have all of the information. You made an assumption and it caused your numbers to be skewed incorrectly

CPU/PG is just different. Its just changes the fittings around a little bit. So people who have ASCR have a little harder time armor tanking than people who use the AR.

3x recoil? Have you used the weapon at all? There is NO recoil. Literally i can empty the entire mag and it will not climb 1 millimeter on the screen. It does have some side to side recoil but so does the AR...in fact the AR and the ASCR side to side recoil are virtually identical but you have to put 1.5 mill extra SP into the AR to get that identical looking recoil. AR does have an upwards traveling recoil so emptying a mag will have you looking alot higher than where you started.

Thank you, someone else noticed this idiots major flaw.

Edit: Oh, D? Before you even -try- to say that the Scrambler Rifle didn't receive the 10% damage buff (and I know you will), check out this Dev Post:

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=807246#post807246

[quote=D legendary hero]
probably due to your bias and desperation to win an argument.

Sure, the recoil is higher but what amazes me is that you neglect to take into account the Assault Rifle Operation and Assault Rifle Sharpshooter skills - of which I tested both with and without.

The Scrambler Rifle does have more recoil, that's a fact, but it's so minute it doesn't even matter considering that (as I mentioned in the thread) Recoil and Dispersion in a Hitscan system are entirely cosmetic as it's not possible to simulate that kind of physics when - in the most base of forms - you're simply shooting vectors (that's a straight line, correction: with a starting point and an anglie of motion with relation to an origin ). Beyond that there is also another complication in that Scrambler Rifles don't have any muzzle climb at all - you can fire forever and it will stay on target no matter what.

None of the drawbacks means none of the bonuses. Massive fire rate, increasing accuracy with fire and massive store of ammunition in the magazine. You can't compare a rifle and a machine gun. It's comparing apples to oranges and I can explain away the Assault Rifle / HMG DPS disparity despite your adamant belief that it's damage is much higher than it is: Balance.

Again - Amarr use Amarr weapons and Amarr weapons are designed for Amarr. Much in the same way that you will not be as effective using projectile weapons on a Gallente Assault Suit. There are perks to using the race's weapons in tandem with it's suit. You say it's baseless but the solution to your problem is right there, you just ignored it.
And if you're going to ***** about CPU/PG costs, than I want my Plasma Cannon's CPU reduced. I want prototype grenades to cost less PG.

I actually did explain this. Numerous times. Assault Rifle is Gallente design, it is meant for high damage- and it fits the bill pretty damned well all things considered. But much in the same way that the Assault Rifle takes three seconds to kill a Heavy, it takes a Heavy with an HMG - a standard one at that - less than two seconds to kill my best proto suit with 750 EHP. Actually, it takes even less than that because he gets a bonus against my armor.

Oh - one more thing.

Assuming that I'm WRONG (something I'm actually willing to admit and have been known to do so when proven such). It does not mean you're right. It just means your math is even more flawed. How do I know this?

Because that 10% damage bonus would apply TO ALL WEAPONS - it is not specific to the Assault Rifle.

Dwell on that for a second.

included the calculation of the 10% buff of all weapons when i compare them.

but like i said if the threashold of a matter is 20, and weapon A does 10 pers second while weapon B does 8.5 with non of the draw backs of weapon A it is better. why? the time to depletion is 2 seconds for weapon A and 2.3 seconds for weapon B.

2 seconds ~ 2.3 seconds


so if weapon by has zero draw backs, and 3 times the range of weapon A, with a differens of TTK of only .3 seconds. obviously weapon B is better.


As a side, point i specifically countered everones arguments for page. AR guys like you continue to repeat the same arguments most of which i solve in the OP, including the linked references. After i resolve one issue, no one responds to it, and then you bring up unrelated issues.

so. i am not responding to this. please refer to my earlier posts. thank you for your time.

Your 10% buff calculations continue to be wrong. Have a devpost confirming this.

What is this mythical weapon which has three times the range of weapon A and yet only has .3 seconds longer TTK?
It's not the AR vs the HMG. Why? The AR doesn't have 3x the range, and the difference in TTK is only .3 seconds longer at long range. The AR does have more range than the HMG, yes - but you are outright wrong in saying the TTK is .3 seconds different. The difference between 425 and 600 is not ~15%. It's nearly 50%. Yes, you have dispersion. That doesn't account for a 45% difference in DPS to that extent. Even with your cited 30% bullet loss due to dispersion it doesn't cover that.

I find it more than a little hypocritical of you to continually say that you've countered everyone's arguments repeatedly and that they're just repeating themselves, when all you're doing is repeating what's in the OP - an OP based on incorrect statistics, flawed maths, and a continually fallacious argument. Neither side is likely to concede, of course, but you telling others that they're repeating themselves is reminiscent of 'pot, kettle, black'.
Especially when you go on to say that you refuse to respond to posts that disagree with your point of view.

im done. i keep answering, i used this very same dev post a few posts up. it confirms exactly what i said. just read my prior posts.

It doesn't confirm what you said. It flies completely in the face of what you said, for example, confirming that the 10% damage buff is baked into weapons.

When I am wrong I admit it, and correct my view. I am not wrong in this case.
If you have not convinced me that the AR is not OP. No one here has.

Earlier in this thread I apologized to someone i insulted.
I corrected my views on giving extreme buffs to the HMG, no that I have had a chance to thoroughly test it wih the new hit detection, it merely lacks accuracy and range.
there were several threads (only 1 of which i started) where I had changed my view point based on sufficient evidence and well constructed arguments.

regardless of whether you were polite or not, the evidences presented here were neither logically, nor compelling.
bringin other weapons into the discussion has no validity here- here we are speaking only about the AR.
TL;DR
the MATH, overall player experience and logic behind my argument pro AR nerf is strong. case and point.

I applaud you for reconsidering your position on the earlier HMG buff proposals. I suspect you will recall that I believed they were ridiculous.

Again, you misunderstand at least what I personally am trying to say. I'm not 100% against an AR nerf, what I'm against is the nerf you're proposing.
The math it's based on isn't quite correct in a lot of cases and a lot of it is based on estimated figures which are probably inaccurate. That's mostly what I'm bashing on here, along with the dubious logic.

However, I don't think you quite understand the term 'balance'. It means to coexist in reasonable harmony with other items - Thus, the state of other weapons is certainly relevant. How can you gauge that something is overpowered if you're not comparing it to other relevant 'powers'?

Once more you declare the opposing arguments invalid and illogical. It's depressingly hypocritical that you should do that, really. Especially so that you should proceed to declare your own logic completely sound and your player experience superior to your opponents. But of course, to be fair, this is the internet, and neither side will ever concede.

EDIT: I have written a thread on the topic of the AR and I would be curious to get your opinion.

I applaud you for reconsidering your position on the earlier HMG buff proposals. I suspect you will recall that I believed they were ridiculous.

Again, you misunderstand at least what I personally am trying to say. I'm not 100% against an AR nerf, what I'm against is the nerf you're proposing.
The math it's based on isn't quite correct in a lot of cases and a lot of it is based on estimated figures which are probably inaccurate. That's mostly what I'm bashing on here, along with the dubious logic.

However, I don't think you quite understand the term 'balance'. It means to coexist in reasonable harmony with other items - Thus, the state of other weapons is certainly relevant. How can you gauge that something is overpowered if you're not comparing it to other relevant 'powers'?

Once more you declare the opposing arguments invalid and illogical. It's depressingly hypocritical that you should do that, really. Especially so that you should proceed to declare your own logic completely sound and your player experience superior to your opponents. But of course, to be fair, this is the internet, and neither side will ever concede.

EDIT: I have written a thread on the topic of the AR and I would be curious to get your opinion.

Some may have said this already but i'll say it anyway.

There's really nothing wrong with the damage of the weapon, it deals fairly good damage in low and mid ranges. But the fact that I can fire it from 50-60m with full-auto while most of my bullets still hit the target is pretty ridiculous (AR operation level 5 and Sharpshooter level 4)

thats why its dispersion needs an increase and its recoil could use an increase.

but, ultimately, the AR needs its DPS swapped with the breach AR.

i mean really there is no reason to ever use the breach, while the regular AR is just as accurate, fires further, does better damage, and fires faster.

all-in-all the reg. AR > breach AR. It makes no sense that it is all around superior to the breach in every respect.

You forget.....currently reg AR is >>>>> Tact, Breach, Burst

What you are noting is an issue we have complained about many times but nothing has ever been done. Instead they nerfed the burst and when they buffed the tact they then nerfed it due to complaints.

BTW calling people AR scrubs when they have obviously told you they use the scrambler rifle is a lvl of stupidity that just cannot be described. If you want to nerf the AR fine but you also HAVE to be asking for a nerf of the scrambler at the same time (since the scrambler is more effective than the AR).

i never sid scrub. i normally say AR noob. and when i say AR noob i speak about FOTM AR users, people who only use full auto ARs. if you are an AR master you use breach, tac and burst.

the Scramblers are comparable to the TAC but they overheat they require no nerf atm. i use them to great effect, but i still get taken out. i dnt feel invincible when using my scramblers. The AScr has fitting requirements and a cost that makes it difficult to tank while using it, so they generally have less shield and armor.

the TAC before was literally. The TAC doesn't need a buff. The regular AR full auto needs its dps swapped with the breach.

this way the full auto = high fire rate, mid range, low damage
Breach = low fire rate, high damage, mid range
burst = low fire rate, high damage, mid range (burst needs a dps increase to 500. the delay between shots will bring it in line with the breach)
TAC = 5% increase in damage. (dps is not to exceed scrambler)

Problem.....

The Reg AR is supposed to be the gallente version. THis means its supposed to be lower range with high dmg and high fire rate. The Burst is supposed to be better at medium ranged with high ROF and decent dmg/accuracy, Breach is supposed to be long range with low ROF ok dmg, and tact (scrambler) is supposed to be long range (not quite as long as breach) with high dmg and ok ROF

The problem is #1 CCP has not balanced them according to what they said they want from these weapons.

AR = Gallente
Burst = Minmatar
Tact = Amarr
Breach = Caldari

That is what its supposed to be. Honestly at this point I dont think CCP has a clue of what they will do to balance out the rifles for their racial specific areas they are wanting.

the SMG is balanced. thats why no one complains about it.

When I die to an SMG, im in close quarters normally with my shields already gone. its not a surprise.
SMGs don't outgun my HMG. SMGs, dnt outgun shotguns....lol

It's true that SMG is a sidearm, but in reality its far better weapon in close range than HMG or AR mainly due to the fact that it's light as hell, usually has very high rate of fire and barely any recoil. Not to mention the fast reloading speed and accuracy. Against shotgun it's 50/50.

It's just that the effective range isn't something to brag about against AR.

I don't think sidearms should be considered somehow inferior to primary weapons. They are more or less just lightweight close range weapons.

If the best weapon for any encounter is one weapon, then the entire premise which Dust is built upon is meaningless fluff.

"Fittings, choices, variety, specializations, niches, strategy, diversity" all out the window if there exists a weapon too capable in too many circumstances.