That's ******* sad. I knew it was bad, but this is just sad..........

[quote=D legendary hero][list]
'Has enough ammo to get 13 kills with a supply depot'. How do you come up with this statistic, exactly? HP totals vary wildly between suits.

'Has marginally less DPS than an HMG without any dispersion'.
It certainly has less dispersion, yes. But 'marginally' less dps? That's not accurate. A standard AR does 425 dps. A standard HMG does 600 dps. While the dispersion is certainly different, that isn't 'marginally' less, that's almost 50% less!

'No recoil'. Technically incorrect. It does have recoil - but it's not very significant. This is one of the major changes that I would prefer for the AR - it needs significant recoil.

'Benefits the most from auto-aim'. No, it doesn't. It benefits quite a lot, but have you used the laser rifle recently? I can track a sprinting target with it without touching the stick.

'Has the best CPU/PG for suits, allowing maximum tanking'. Eh. A number of weapons use very similar resources - the mass driver for instance. You can hardly say it's the 'best'.

'Does 110% damage to shields and 95% to armour giving the best effective damage dealt'. It's 110/90. Additionally, you can't really definitively say that one damage profile is better than another.

'Is undisputed out to 75m'.
No. Absolutely not. I have shotgunned ARs before, 'disputing' them well before 75m. I also beat AR users with a scrambler rifle well before that range.

'Renders scrambler rifles obsolete due to its accuracy up to 88m'.
It certainly doesn't render my scrambler rifle obsolete. Do you mean to say lasers, which have their major damage dropoff at that point?

'Can take maximum advantage of headshots due to high dps and high accuracy'.
Scrambler rifle does it better.

'don't suffer from hit detection issues as bad due to the high damage pershot and dps, and low dispersion. in fact it benefits from hit detection the most. (hit detection itself is good, the AR is OP)'
I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say here. Are you trying to say that the AR's spray and pray style can do well irrespective of how well the hit detection is working?

As someone who mains the scrambler rifle I can assure you that it certainly benefits from aim assist. As a part-time user of the HMG I can also assure you that it applies to that as well.
The MD doesn't particularly benefit from aim assist, no. It has the advantage of a 10m blast diameter though, so you hardly need it. I can't speak for the flaylock as I haven't used that lately. Forge guns are not an anti-infantry focused weapon. They certainly have the capability, but when doing that, much like the sniper rifle, you have to rely on aiming skills for high precision, high damage shots.[quote]
b]d legendary hero:[/b]
i would agree with you on the scambler but its on a list of weapons that CCP confirmed aren't affected by aim assit. that and i also use scamblers 1.4 has made them more useful.. but ARs are still OP compared these and other weapons.


The AR may have a relatively balanced fitting profile, but it isn't nearly the only weapon and a number have superior fitting options.
b]d legendary hero:[/b]
based on its power being able to slap one of the best guns on any suit is itself OP. imagine if scouts could use HMGs?
there is a reason for CPU/PG layouts. if the AR is to retain its current power and stats it needs way more CPU/PG to make it difficult to fit to suits with damage mods, or sheild and armor tanking.

[quote]
As someone who literally wrote the book on shields and armour and someone who has done extensive testing of damage profiles, I am 100% certain this is not the case.

good points but distorting wall

I bet there was more than one.

Your links and math title attracted me ... you wouldn't happen to have a spreadsheet as well?

Signed. +1 the AR has been out of balance since mordu's trials.This thread will do nothing because this community is caustic and only concerned about their self interest not making a better game. Dust fiend trumpeted this same message last year to deaf ears.

This game had a perfect TTK rate prior to 1.4. This update has totally ruined the flow of the game and skills and gear mean virtually nothing now. A noob with less than 1 mil SP and a militia AR is a more viable killer than a 20 mil SP player with a proto suit and proto MD. This is insane.

Character development is dead.

shoulnt that heavy be stacking more armor than shield in his build if ARs are the problem? all i read from this is "dont shield tank a heavy"

I disagree with your maths. Your solution. And your examples.

However. And please ladies and gentlemen hide your children... i do "kind of" agree with 'D legendary hero's' first 3 lines.

So if i may try my hand at re wording things...

Hit detection has changed how many weapons apply their damage. AR's, SMG's, Scrambler rifles, and HMG's are the prime examples (but not restricted too). However it has changed their effectiveness in different ways.

AR's due to their inherent accuracy are now applying a greater amount of their dmg, at all ranges, and more consistently.

SMG's are now applying a greater amount of dmg, at their optimal, where their dispersion is not so much of an issue. Due also to their high rate of fire, this dmg is applied quickly, which makes them extremely effective at CQ.

SR's are registering hits more often. Dmg output is up. Imperial scramble rifles with complex dmg mods are very very scary.

The HMG is now hitting. At Optimal ranges, the close to full dps can be applied like a huge multi barrelled machine gun should... which is a lot.
However the dispersion is now a major factor in applied dps. At marginally longer ranges the number of bullets hitting drops exponentially. Hitting is "easier", but the amount hitting is less. Especially if the target is not cantered.
In CQ, if you can keep the bead on target, you hit for 100% (please insert moving matrix style jumpy target), if not you do 0.

This is what i have found. No numbers needed, no comparison. I even tried to be un-bias.

I havent said anything is OP... i think it is too early to start shouting from the hill tops. I AM sure things are unballanced atm... im just trying to figure out the how and why.

I "feel" like heavies and scouts just arent as surviable as they should be. And that wiil directly effect how weapons work too...
Its a bit too soon too be crying wolf yet

All i se is LOOSERS WHO want all weapons nerfed exept the ones they use...

The AR is fine as it is, the reason you Loose to it is that almost all the veterans in the game is using AR, as it was the only assault weapon in the game when it was released, and most of them are fully trained in it, also they run suits, gear, shields and armor thats all proto, and fully trained. they are fully trained in electronics and engenering so they can fit more and bigger items.

They make a lot of dmg and they are hard to kill...

if 2 Caldari shield based vets with the same amount of SP goes at it, 1 using AR, and 2 using SCR
belive me the dude whit the AR will die in 2 sec. and the SCR dude will run of laughing.

Get some SP, train your skills and STOP crying.

The AR doesnt need a damage nerf it needs a range nerf, the AR is supposed to have the HIGH DPS - LOW RANGE so if an AR user can close ground on you, you should consider yourself dead.

Lowering its DPS to 350 means that its damage would have to be increased while its ROF is decreased, or increase the ROF while nerfing the damage, if none of these are done every other weapon would need to have its DPS lowered or the AR would just become the most UP gun in the game.

The AR should work similar to how the Blaster tanks and Rail tanks work, at long rangers the Rail tank will obliterate a Blaster tank due to how its range exceeds the range of the Blaster, but at close ranges the Rail tank has no way of competing with the Blaster tank in damage.

Technically for all this to work, it would mean the AUTO ARs would need their range nerfed, the Breach ARs keep their current range and the TAC ARs have their range slightly higher than the breach. At the same time hip fire dispersion would increase with the range, while recoil would decrease with longer range. After this every other rifle weapon, would have a low DPS, high damage per shot profile. For example the Caldari rail rifle, the longest range assault rifle, would have the lowest DPS but the highest damage per shot, the most hip fire dispersion but the least amount of recoil and of course the longest range. On the case of the Gallente AR it would have the highest DPS but the lowest damage per shot, the least amount of hip fire dispersion but the highest amount of recoil, and the lowest range.

<-- AR user only saying because apparently we aren't coherent enough to provide good feedback on the AR.

I think the real problem is that we are still missing weapons and suits in the game...

All but Amar are missing Commando and Heavy suits and a few scout suits are missing to, there are no Minmatar or Caldary AR's
and Gallante has no side arm, Minmatar has a HMG and Caldary has the forgegun, the rest of the heavy weapons are still missing, cant remeber it all right now but a lot of things are still missing in Dust 514...


Normally in games all races/sides have there own version of the enemys stuff, in Dust we dont have that so far...

I think its kind of funny that the Minmatar have a HMG that can only be used on a Amar heavy suit LOL...

Read my finished edit, it would technically get a nerf but some buffs at the same time.

Hmm ok.
ASCR can over heat, try to fire 2 clips in a row.
AR does have kick and dispersion try to fire all 60 rounds in to a spot you aim at and you will find that it starts to kick like mule and move up and to the side.
NO no one can take 4-5 shots from a charge sniper rifle.

STOP talking about weapons you know nothing about at max lvl...

All you use for sources are player stated arguments. Sad. You realize most people have used the AR before this update. I've always used the AR. Many others have too. There were no complaints before this update either. Leaving us to conclude that it must be something in the new update that effects weapon performance. The only two things in this update that did such a thing was the improved hit thing and the auto aim. Most people gravitate towards the assault rifle period. They always have.

the same people that always used the AR either don't use other guns and are oblivious to how other guns work and their strong and weak points, or know how good the AR is compared to other weapons and use it to stay competitive. the two improvements show us how well each gun is and the true power of each gun that wasn't here in 1.3. using that argument to help you doesn't show any drawbacks to the AR and shows how powerful the AR really is. I used my own personal experience with weak skills into the AR to show it's effectiveness with small damage buffs (in my case, 5% damage increase on the STD AR). others are using maxed out skills to theory test damages and such to prove it's effectiveness

Ok 'D' your scaring me now...

SMG, are killing at longer ranges now (double smg fits are becoming more and more common) and absolutely pwning at closer ranges. Im seeing HMG heavies coming out last in straight engagements...

SR's of all descriptions are doing really well with this build. In many cases out performing their AR brothers. To the point that many die hard AR users i know have swapped out.

LR are better, but are in direct competition with the SR and AR. They can still pull ahead in a few area but there isnt much of a niche for them atm

Shotguns are doing exactly what they say on the box. With a Scout buff (they dont die if you sneeze to hard) this will become the cause of many sweet tears.

HMG's are getting out performed. They are workable, but there are other weapons that do their job better, in too many areas.

AR's... i would say too much range... but until the other racial variants are out and a full balance on the group is done i cant say what should be done...
They are doing what they should, but too well. Stepping on the toes of many other systems.

According to the description, the assault rifle is the most advanced weapon of its kind. This means it is, in fact not a jack of all trades, but a master of all trades. This guy's counter to that is that it isn't because it has a medium range. All I have to say is that it doesn't have to have the range of a sniper rifle to have a pretty good range. If CCP happens to Nerf this gun, I hope it can still live up to its description, the most advanced weapon of its class.

If the hmg is a minmatar weapon, then its actully long range suppresion, and short range breaching, liken the mass driver, it's dispersion is high because suppresing an enemy shouldn't mean butchering him with a hose of gunfire, it needs a range boost to about 25m and 10% more dispersion!!

AR clip size needs to be halved, simple fix the thing can still hit near 900hp in a clip with half the capacity!!!

[quote=Monkey MAC][quote=Korvin Lomont][quote=Kekklian Noobatronic]stuff

850+ EHP Mediums doing their full damage aren't really concerned with a weapon that will take 10 seconds of continuous fire to apply any meaningful damage, while their weapons take 2-4 seconds to finish off the person doing the suppression.

Take any real conflict. WW1, WW2, etc. HMG's dealt full damage out far longer than their smaller counterparts. That made people fear incoming damage - the very nature of "supression". In it's current form, the dust HMG is not a real supression weapon. AR's are, however.

The shotgun shouldn't compete with the AR for range. It's a shotgun! Give it a higher damage rate to make it as worthwhile as the AR if needed, but keep it close range. The shotgun's range is long enough as it is.

CCP shouldn't model other weapons after the AR. Balance is key, but not by turning every other weapon into an AR. Variety is key!

I have to agree here, the range of the shotgun is fine. I've tested it against heavies in my own corp and it reaches 0% effectiveness at 30m, you can still do measureable damage at about 20m and less. This is fine for the shotty, so long as it works. If they fix the hit detection properly and the shotty will be fine notwithstanding other issues. The real problem lies in the ability to close the distance and compete at close range. There are very few weapons that should currently have high CQC hip fire accuracy, but everything does. It is currently a weapon without a niche do to unreliability and the ability of others to do the exact same effective damage within shotgun optimal range and still be effective at longer ranges.

Do you believe all the sales crap that's printed on the box?

Because that's what it is - sales crap. It doesn't literally mean that the AR should outperform any other light weapon in the game.

forge guns need time to charge up and you can't aim. plus the assault can't hold it's charge so you need a great deal of skill to hit with it. also the assault forge gun is also a lvl 4 gun as opposed to the lvl 1 STD AR.

again, stop dodging me and answer the questions i always ask, what are the drawbacks of the AR? if your argument is about other guns and not the AR's drawbacks, i will just assume you use the AR only and haven't touched others guns to see the difference

when we deal with the assault rifle on any game in general..

its has few drawbacks..

it is designed to have great versatility..

plus this is the galente assault rifle we r talking about..

the other racial variants have not been released yet as this is still a beta...

but the galente assault rifle needs no tweaking as of yet...

the drawback of the ar in general r few one being that its in the middle of majority of the guns..
it doesnt do av...

it is a versatile weapon with few drawbacks/weaknesses this also mean it has no super strength..

and because of this it is the assault rifles strength.. and weakness...

and can be modified to be more effective in certain environments using the same version would mean it will become weaker in another...

its the one drawback that can also play as its strength...

if u see a player using a breach.. get some distance..
if u see some1 using the tac ar...rush him....

if u see some1 using a regular ar...any thing would EQUALLY work against him...


the assault rifles one drawback can also be its strength..

its designed to assault objectives and positions with out a need for a class specific weapon in combat...

thus the assault rifle...

game is still incomplete...

and needs to be worked on still it basically is a beta..

everything hasnt been released yet..

and the one ar having majority of the other racial traits is probably going to be awhile to be redesigned..

the assault scrambler rifle is pretty much the amarr version of the galente assault rifle...plus all u did was quote a small part of my post like an idiot...

and whats weak is your stupid maths and crappy skill...

what ruins decent weaponry and decent stuff that seems to be already balanced is when an idiot comes along takes a look at all the stats tries to do math and yells and yells and cries saying its over powered.

if the std regular assault rifle is so op explain why it cant ohk anything?

explain why it doesnt obliterate the already paper thin tanks we have?

explain why it does so little damage to a lav?

its the most versatile weapon because it is designed to do multiple things...

assault objectives secure areas..kill infantry...

it might be dominating the field in numbers but its not one single player going 50/0 with it.

the assault rifles strength is the ability to play to your weaknesses..

and it can easily be countered by everything...

its not over powered and needs no nerfing currently..

and just to clarify

no weakness means equally weak to everything u idiot..

if it had no weakness it would be unstoppable..and it is quite stoppable..

Im going to be honest with you.



But on the other stuff i think i agree with him. The AR has an insane DPS YES,but tahts in the imaginary case that ALL BULLETS HIT>

The real nerf the AR needs is:
-ACtual Dispersion rate and recoil (For an AR they have nothing, the AR is more accurate than my LR, im not kidding)
-Reduce the Aim assist, and this goes to all weapons.

Before 1.4 we still had the AR is OP thing, but before it was dodgable, bullets hurt but did not hit all the time.
The problem is NOW they are hitting 58 out of 60 bullets,andTHATS what makes the AR feel op....

IMO that is.

Well we totally agree here.





I dont think the DPS nerf is needed.Here is why:
*You add dispertion rate with the idea that at FULL AUTO , only around 65-70% of the bullets will hit.This already turns down the DPS a lot.
*With some recoil the AR will have to be used in a matter that can be compared to the overheat mechanic of the scram/laser rifle,while not being less effective than Burst and TAc variants. (because you can still Full auto at Close quarters)
*With AA tuned down a little , the necesity of using controlled bursts instead of full auto a mid/long ranges ALSO turns ddown the overall DPS of the AR.

I think this should be applied BEFORE even considering tuning down the DPS.
This would help the AR have a more ''REALISTIC'' feel, while gicving skilled players an Advantage over scrubs PLUS keeping the AR CQ capabilities,that is what is supposed to make it the ''jack of all trades'' AR...


Sorry for the mispels, my auto correct got f*** up and my english spellign is really not that awesome...

@ LEgendary Hero

EVEN IF YOU HAVE YOUR FREAKN MOUTH FULL WITH TRUTH, i still think a DPS nerf is unecessary if the changes i proposed get done XD

This is why:
-WIth all the firing in bursts / more aiming / recoil / bullet dispersion, making the most of the AR will take a fair amount of skill. No Spray and pray player will even defeat a skilled AR user.
-As it is, Shotguns and SMG DO out-damage AR's in CQ (I do it all the time with my ADV SMG or Proto) and if i loose i had been severly injured.
-As it is, the AR still looses to Laser rifle/TAC AR at mid-long ranges,i get mosts of my kills thanks to AR users shooting at me and thinking i dont have to respond,then imma chargin mai lazor!
-The problem is other weapons DONT excel when they are supposed to, say HMG or Scrambler Rifle.....So they are in need of a BUFF.

Im going to leave my post as it is,since you are clearly more educated in the issue, i havn't used AR in decades....
But i insist that those changes should be done first,and a buff of weapons taht are not preforming as expected before even considering turning down the DPS of the AR.I feel that if a AR user gets the hang of the weapon even with all that i proposed,he deserves a High DPS.

ANd i've been doing REALLY good with LR , specially Vs AR, if i am positioned correctly XD

Again thats the most i can defend a weapon that i dont use ...LOL
Sorry AR users, your on your own XD

GG






BTW i'll say it here and i hope some LR user sees this:
You said:''Lazers work as intended, but are still displaced because the ARs effective range over laps, the optimal of the LAzer. this means that the AR can close the distance and still do significant damage. ''

I respond'': The secret to a GOOD LR user is....Be good with the LR, be better with your side arm ;) ''

Disagree, you panzy. Want to just MD to death?

In your calculations you are assuming the AR guy lands all his hits during 3.4 seconds, and I think that is too much of a simplification. The time will be higher, either because as an AR you want to do burst shooting, or because you fail at aiming.
Even with aim assist, 3.4 seconds to kill the heaviest guy in the gam with an AR is not an accurate time, it's the minimum time you need to kill him. Not to mention that usually heavys don't come alone and they have a gun as well.

Hmm a Shotgun is more of a suprise weapon it should win when the opponent is caught off hand but it should loose in a direct firefight. Having 50/50 in a firefight seem fair to me.

Honestly I am pleased with this but everyone knows the assault rifle trumphs all. It is a joke that an AR can hit further and do more damage than an HMG. The truth of the matter is that it always will and CCP is not going to change this because they fear that their fan base will die. But they talk balance. Lol ccp is a joke with these stats and how they decided about weapons and they want this to be a thinking shooter won't happen as long as AR are king. Bringing realism to this game would bring balance and start people to thinking and using tactics. Currently to get kills all u need is an assault rifle and M1 grenades or higher and your and instant killer. Why have other classes and weapons. Or better yet why should people that truly love and play this game have to deal with this crap or skill into an assault rifle to remain relevant. I thought CCP was keeping stats on weapons to know these things and prevent this.

Their fan base is already dead. This persistent AR issue is part of the problem. It kills diversity. It kills tactics. It kills depth.

That's why we're hitting a peak of just over 3k concurrent users since 1.4 - there's no point anymore.

I also love how this issue has been brought to the forefront consistently for over a month, plus it was being brought up over a year ago off and on, and nothing in the feedback weekly on it.

Well CCP, Dust is just about dead because you've tried to make the same old same old rather than bring innovative. In the end, all you've accomplished is a crappier version of same old same old and it seems no one really wants to play that.

Eve struck out in it's own direction. Dust must do the same or die.

complaining about a single gun just by dps alone is stupid...very ,very, stupid...

...



^ thats trolling..

Your reasons were mostly either anecdotal or sourced from really, really bad maths.

Additionally, your defence of your nerfing reasons is literally 'Well, all the other ones were pathetic too so I can be pathetic as well right?'

Notice how three of the articles on the list are due to splash damage. Do you think that might have been more of an over-arching problem with splash weaponry? Instead of considering that, the nerf brigade is whining, and the same mistakes of the past are set to be repeated here - because one group doesn't like another group's weapons, clearly they must be OP.

I find it ironic that you should reason that someone wants to nerf something because 'It does what it's designed to do'. That's... what you're doing here.

Much earlier in the thread, I suggested improvements to your OP, which devolved into an internet argument. I will give you props for being more intelligent than the average internet whiner, but you are a part of the nerf brigade here.

Just rollback the weapon buffs on everything but the breaches.

Problem solved.

Adjust ranges from there.

Unloading a large amount of splash damage in under a second wasn't OP?
I'll humour your own logical fallacies because you've made an effort here and been more reasonable than I expected.

You've also just explained why the MD was nerfed once (though it was excessive at that stage) - The splash damage wasn't working well at the time, and when it was fixed it was going to be OP. Can you honestly say that the old mass drivers wouldn't have been overwhelming in the current setting? The blast radius of an old freedom could exceed 10m, iirc.

Would you like to show me some maths with the old flaylock stats indicating it was fine? You misunderstand me - I don't necessarily support the other nerfs just because I don't support this one. If you could bring me some solid numbers on the old flaylock I'd be inclined to believe you, now that armour is in a decent place.



I don't even use the AR. I'm simply defending it against the nerf brigade.



oh im sorry, i forgot to read where CCP said the AR is designed to be an I-win button and superior to every other weapon in all respects at the militia level up to proto in every conceiveible situation.

oh...wait.. they didn't? yeah, because ARs aren't designed for that.

I appreciated the coments, but I did the research and based on not only the in game experience of most players in cluding myself, the MATH and logic behind the AR proves it is OP.

in the court of law, eye witness testimony, with evidence, and scientific facts generally lead to convictions. the defense for ARs is weak at best and doesn't mitigate its OPness.

No his math is wrong, his logic is flawed and only considers dps which is not the only consideration by a long shot. This is the homework of a baddy who needs to get better. And who told you all weapons were supposed to be equal? Thts why you have a choice, ya you get less range and you overheat, with a heavy, you also can carry about 1600 hp there's an advantage that comes with the heavy I don't get in my suit with my ar, there's much more too, this is all just lame qqing bc of aim assist, where was all this before aim assist?

[quote=D legendary hero]
points and counter points...
Unloading a large amount of splash damage in under a second wasn't OP?
I'll humour your own logical fallacies because you've made an effort here and been more reasonable than I expected.

You've also just explained why the MD was nerfed once (though it was excessive at that stage) - The splash damage wasn't working well at the time, and when it was fixed it was going to be OP. Can you honestly say that the old mass drivers wouldn't have been overwhelming in the current setting? The blast radius of an old freedom could exceed 10m, iirc.

Would you like to show me some maths with the old flaylock stats indicating it was fine? You misunderstand me - I don't necessarily support the other nerfs just because I don't support this one. If you could bring me some solid numbers on the old flaylock I'd be inclined to believe you, now that armour is in a decent place.



the splash damage wasn't registering. but the weapon was designed to be an area denial weapon, to stop enemies from advancing. which ARs in assault suits do, which is why they were annoyed.

MD wouldn't be a problem in CQC like they were a little while before this 1.4 because the splash would make them commit suicide.


[quote]
arguements...counter arguments...

r u forgetting the fact it take more bullets to kill some1 than it does with the flay lock?

-1

Assault Scrambler Rifle and Assault Rifle have roughly the same DPS and the Assault Scrambler Rifle, while having the same optimal, has a larger falloff range.

If you're going to nerf the Assault Rifle, the only viable solution is a reduction in optimal range. Beyond that it's performing the same as other weapons of similar properties like the ASR. The Assault Rifle is Plasma based and Gallente in design, meant for low ranges and high damage output. It doesn't make sense that the ASR has the same damage output with a longer range and nerfing the Assault Rifle will only increase that disparity in a negative way unless done correctly.

To which I provide you legitimate and hardcore proof.

http://i.imgur.com/krRr5EZ.png

Is it too late to mention that the AR in this game shoots PLASMA! Wouldn't that just melt clean though armor and shields? Especially when contained in a magnetic bolt? If I'm wrong just ignore me :)

Nerf the Aim assist so people actually have to aim themself's again... Will stop the 80% accuracy rating's people have that couldn't even shoot a moving LAV before.

Aim assist gone or make sense with it... people having to actually aim will bring a gun that should require aim to hit back to balance.


Making a gun less powerful because noobs are hitting you with a computer genererated aiming system is like.... crazy talk.... oh no I(lol) can aim finally?!?! but they can too!!! oh noes the guns are to powerful! Are you fracking kidding me?

wat

I play with plasma

If you have problems with lore just blame it on nanites.

Where?

is it too late to mention that plasma is not an element but a state of matter? Stay in school bro.

ah ok, saw them.

Most of the links explain what's already known. HMG and SMG and shotgun not getting aim assist is unclear, and is probably due to the short range and bonus to ADSsing.

Spec Ops Cipher's video clearly shows that aim assist does exist for those weapons.

* HMG tracks to 50m
* SMG tracks to 30m
* Shotgun tracks to 16m

You're not punished for missing with a massdriver. The splash damage is the primary way MD users kill people. Stop trying to sound like your skilled for using the MD which rewards missing.

is it too late to mention that plasma is not an element but a state of matter? Stay in school bro.

My favorite part is it says that is is a state of matter in the very post you cite as evidence of your intelligence. Beyond that though citing wikipedia just makes you seem foolish. You know that it is frequently wrong don't you? Anyone who cites wikipedia should be kicked in the balls for not understanding its flaws as a reference.

Sorry to tell you friend but with 0 sp invested in SMG I notice significant AA action when using it. No skills are needed to AA that tiny grasshopper. It even works while ADSing with the SMG.

ok yes plasma is very hot, but it doesn't carry much heat especially in discreet packets, frankly bullets carry more energy then most plasmas that would occupy the same space. Frankly the only way you could make plasma do the damage it does in this game the way it does it is by making a super heated very dense(for plasma) slug of it in a magnetic field(which is in fact the way it is described in the game).

god ******* damn it graaahhhhh!! is psychics and science in general just not taught in schools any more??? why do people treat this **** like god damn magic and with no sense of scale...............

you know what I just read that the radiation from fukushima will be hitting the west coast in the next few months you should go and get your radiation med and start popping them like candy to protect your self. ****

oh I should mention NEVER take radiation med unless instructed to, last thing I need is to get blamed for the death of every sci illiterate on the west coast.

First of all, efficacy does not change between tiers. 110% is retained between the Militia Assault Rifle and the Duvolle Assault Rifle - this is congruent with all weapons. Their efficacy only changes based on range, variant and whether or not you're firing at shields/armor. There is no difference. There is absolutely nothing misleading about it, the damage slopes are retained no matter what.

Secondly, like with all weapons, the CPU and PG requirements on the Scrambler Rifle can be reduced. This is a moot point considering that the CPU costs on Assault Rifles are higher in the upper tiers and Scrambler Rifles retain their traditionally high PG costs as they do in Eve Online. This is solely because they are very powerful weapons, which is the exact same reason they have overheat - which is another negligible factor because anyone with the right build finds it challenging to overheat the Scrambler Rifle. If you're having problems with this, perhaps you should invest in the Amarr Assault

Which, I will remind you, Amarr have higher CPU/PG resources on their suits solely to compensate for this.

Third and final, your DPS estimates are exaggerated and wrong - much like most of your argument. The damage per second calculation is damage multiplied by rate of fire divided by sixty. How you managed to pull 467 DPS on a Militia Assault Rifle without tying in skills/modules is beyond me, because that is higher than it's actual value of 425 (34 damage * 12.5 rounds per second)

When comparing the Advanced vs Advanced and Proto vs Proto tiers (as you should have done) the values come out as such:

GEK-38 AR: 446.25
CRD-9 ASR: 444.53

Duvolle AR: 467.5
Carthum ASR: 465.7

The difference in DPS is negligible. So why does the Militia AR have higher DPS? It doesn't. You evaluated the expression incorrectly. Why does the ASR have a greater fall off over range? Because it has a longer range with the same optimal. Never the less, both have their perks and different design philosophies.

Edit: Also, where is your gauge for this mythical "3x recoil"? Do you have a video showing side by side comparisons between the two? Are skills, like Sharpshooter, being taken into account? What is the basis for this claim besides magic?

Please provide legitimate information and true-to-reality evidence of your findings. Don't just throw out information that you make up (like Militia AR DPS) because I will school you.

Another Edit:

Here, I did your job for you: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1295853#post1295853

• I think you'll find that's actually 70%... Not marginally less, but not 50% either... And if you do factor in dispersion as you say later in your argument... Interesting...
• With you on the recoil...
• I think what he was trying to say is that a Basic Heavy with a Heavy Machine Gun shouldn't be killed so quickly. Even by someone with a prototype Assault Rifle...

And bare in mind still, that, even in close quarters with 2 people standing still and shooting at each other, the Assault Rifle would get a larger percentage of bullets to hit... And that brings it so close to the Heavy Machinegun, that it almost makes the Heavy Sentinel role obsolete... Unless the 2 aforementioned guys are of the same level in all of their equipment... And that shouldn't be the case... Just my 2 cents...

You're all just jealous that the Gallente designed the superior battlefield weapon.

Yes but if you start out on a false statement the rest doesn't matter to me anyway.

devs please do us all a favor and lock this thread up, iv seen at least 3 threads within a week from this guy saying this is op and that is op

[quote=INFINITE DIVERSITY IDIC][quote=Godin Thekiller]
Op means you fail, fine the ar is op, now what? Same thing, adapt or die.

Thank you, someone else noticed this idiots major flaw.

Edit: Oh, D? Before you even -try- to say that the Scrambler Rifle didn't receive the 10% damage buff (and I know you will), check out this Dev Post:

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=807246#post807246

[quote=D legendary hero]
probably due to your bias and desperation to win an argument.

Sure, the recoil is higher but what amazes me is that you neglect to take into account the Assault Rifle Operation and Assault Rifle Sharpshooter skills - of which I tested both with and without.

The Scrambler Rifle does have more recoil, that's a fact, but it's so minute it doesn't even matter considering that (as I mentioned in the thread) Recoil and Dispersion in a Hitscan system are entirely cosmetic as it's not possible to simulate that kind of physics when - in the most base of forms - you're simply shooting vectors (that's a straight line, correction: with a starting point and an anglie of motion with relation to an origin ). Beyond that there is also another complication in that Scrambler Rifles don't have any muzzle climb at all - you can fire forever and it will stay on target no matter what.

None of the drawbacks means none of the bonuses. Massive fire rate, increasing accuracy with fire and massive store of ammunition in the magazine. You can't compare a rifle and a machine gun. It's comparing apples to oranges and I can explain away the Assault Rifle / HMG DPS disparity despite your adamant belief that it's damage is much higher than it is: Balance.

Again - Amarr use Amarr weapons and Amarr weapons are designed for Amarr. Much in the same way that you will not be as effective using projectile weapons on a Gallente Assault Suit. There are perks to using the race's weapons in tandem with it's suit. You say it's baseless but the solution to your problem is right there, you just ignored it.
And if you're going to ***** about CPU/PG costs, than I want my Plasma Cannon's CPU reduced. I want prototype grenades to cost less PG.

I actually did explain this. Numerous times. Assault Rifle is Gallente design, it is meant for high damage- and it fits the bill pretty damned well all things considered. But much in the same way that the Assault Rifle takes three seconds to kill a Heavy, it takes a Heavy with an HMG - a standard one at that - less than two seconds to kill my best proto suit with 750 EHP. Actually, it takes even less than that because he gets a bonus against my armor.

Oh - one more thing.

Assuming that I'm WRONG (something I'm actually willing to admit and have been known to do so when proven such). It does not mean you're right. It just means your math is even more flawed. How do I know this?

Because that 10% damage bonus would apply TO ALL WEAPONS - it is not specific to the Assault Rifle.

Dwell on that for a second.

Your 10% buff calculations continue to be wrong. Have a devpost confirming this.

What is this mythical weapon which has three times the range of weapon A and yet only has .3 seconds longer TTK?
It's not the AR vs the HMG. Why? The AR doesn't have 3x the range, and the difference in TTK is only .3 seconds longer at long range. The AR does have more range than the HMG, yes - but you are outright wrong in saying the TTK is .3 seconds different. The difference between 425 and 600 is not ~15%. It's nearly 50%. Yes, you have dispersion. That doesn't account for a 45% difference in DPS to that extent. Even with your cited 30% bullet loss due to dispersion it doesn't cover that.

I find it more than a little hypocritical of you to continually say that you've countered everyone's arguments repeatedly and that they're just repeating themselves, when all you're doing is repeating what's in the OP - an OP based on incorrect statistics, flawed maths, and a continually fallacious argument. Neither side is likely to concede, of course, but you telling others that they're repeating themselves is reminiscent of 'pot, kettle, black'.
Especially when you go on to say that you refuse to respond to posts that disagree with your point of view.

It doesn't confirm what you said. It flies completely in the face of what you said, for example, confirming that the 10% damage buff is baked into weapons.

I applaud you for reconsidering your position on the earlier HMG buff proposals. I suspect you will recall that I believed they were ridiculous.

Again, you misunderstand at least what I personally am trying to say. I'm not 100% against an AR nerf, what I'm against is the nerf you're proposing.
The math it's based on isn't quite correct in a lot of cases and a lot of it is based on estimated figures which are probably inaccurate. That's mostly what I'm bashing on here, along with the dubious logic.

However, I don't think you quite understand the term 'balance'. It means to coexist in reasonable harmony with other items - Thus, the state of other weapons is certainly relevant. How can you gauge that something is overpowered if you're not comparing it to other relevant 'powers'?

Once more you declare the opposing arguments invalid and illogical. It's depressingly hypocritical that you should do that, really. Especially so that you should proceed to declare your own logic completely sound and your player experience superior to your opponents. But of course, to be fair, this is the internet, and neither side will ever concede.

EDIT: I have written a thread on the topic of the AR and I would be curious to get your opinion.

I applaud you for reconsidering your position on the earlier HMG buff proposals. I suspect you will recall that I believed they were ridiculous.

Again, you misunderstand at least what I personally am trying to say. I'm not 100% against an AR nerf, what I'm against is the nerf you're proposing.
The math it's based on isn't quite correct in a lot of cases and a lot of it is based on estimated figures which are probably inaccurate. That's mostly what I'm bashing on here, along with the dubious logic.

However, I don't think you quite understand the term 'balance'. It means to coexist in reasonable harmony with other items - Thus, the state of other weapons is certainly relevant. How can you gauge that something is overpowered if you're not comparing it to other relevant 'powers'?

Once more you declare the opposing arguments invalid and illogical. It's depressingly hypocritical that you should do that, really. Especially so that you should proceed to declare your own logic completely sound and your player experience superior to your opponents. But of course, to be fair, this is the internet, and neither side will ever concede.

EDIT: I have written a thread on the topic of the AR and I would be curious to get your opinion.

Some may have said this already but i'll say it anyway.

There's really nothing wrong with the damage of the weapon, it deals fairly good damage in low and mid ranges. But the fact that I can fire it from 50-60m with full-auto while most of my bullets still hit the target is pretty ridiculous (AR operation level 5 and Sharpshooter level 4)

You forget.....currently reg AR is >>>>> Tact, Breach, Burst

What you are noting is an issue we have complained about many times but nothing has ever been done. Instead they nerfed the burst and when they buffed the tact they then nerfed it due to complaints.

BTW calling people AR scrubs when they have obviously told you they use the scrambler rifle is a lvl of stupidity that just cannot be described. If you want to nerf the AR fine but you also HAVE to be asking for a nerf of the scrambler at the same time (since the scrambler is more effective than the AR).

It's true that SMG is a sidearm, but in reality its far better weapon in close range than HMG or AR mainly due to the fact that it's light as hell, usually has very high rate of fire and barely any recoil. Not to mention the fast reloading speed and accuracy. Against shotgun it's 50/50.

It's just that the effective range isn't something to brag about against AR.

I don't think sidearms should be considered somehow inferior to primary weapons. They are more or less just lightweight close range weapons.

If the best weapon for any encounter is one weapon, then the entire premise which Dust is built upon is meaningless fluff.

"Fittings, choices, variety, specializations, niches, strategy, diversity" all out the window if there exists a weapon too capable in too many circumstances.

CeoPyrex is now using an AR...so now there is no question that AR is the FOTM.

See I don't need math either!

AR'S won't just be AR's soon enough, within the next couple of updates you'll have minmatar combar rifle, and the caldari rail rifle, as well as the Amar ??? rifle. They aren't gunna spend the time to nerf it right now, they have other things that are more important right now, like fixing all the vehicles, getting all the other racial suits in, and adding the rest of the racial weapons

I'm not argueing that they are or aren't op i'm just stating that you won't just have the AR anymore.

Firstly using math as the a prominent variable to balance weapons is just lol

OP play consistent PC and then get back to me on weapon balance

None of this even matters.

PC is played by a minority. Dust is bleeding players pretty substantially. This is partly due to the fact that, in the game most players actually see, the AR is stupidly easy and definitely OP.

That's pretty much the long and short of it. AR 514 needs to end if Dust is to succeed.

You are right that the AR operates outside its designed role of a high DPS weapon with low Range. But I guess this will change once the other Assault Rifles will be included. Right now the AR is balanced againt the AsCR (or the other way round) and both weapons operate nearly identical (wich is stupid).

BTW I think the GAR will should be more a medium ROF and Medium to High Damage weapon as I believe the low Damage High Rof part will be filled by the minmatar weapons.

Regarding your list I would only agree to the Shotgun and the Plasma Cannon these weapons are way to weak. Not so sure about the flaylock....

Regarding the TAC AR I disagree the Scrambler Rifle is far better than the TAC AR and barely anyone is using the TAC anymore. The key succes for the Scramber is to know how the overheating mechanic work and the Charged Shot is really nice but difficult to use. The only thing that keeps the Scrambler from beeing as OP as the old TAC AR is the overheating mechanic.

Just on a sidenote the Amarr Rifles do operate uotside their role as well as they have nearly identical or much higher dps that the high DPS weapons (to be fair they don't have the Range advantage they should have so it's sorta balanced but wrong).

wat

That runs completely against everything you're saying here. You're saying that the AR is too good at general killing, then that there's no such thing as being too good?

You see AR guys have a problem where if they don't a gun or its function the QQ OP. flaylocks worked perfectly fine. ARs still had way more kills. in fact at its hight the flaylock still only ranked 6th on the list of guns with kills... still below SMGs.

after playing dust 514 for several days straight the ar really isnt op.

mass driver will destroy it at close range and laser rifle can destroy it at longer ranges.

so can assault scrambler rifle.


thats is pretty much it and the math being done here to use as evidence of the ar being op is basically stupid.


this thread just needs to die as several other guns r better or if not equal to the assault rifles killing potential.

the stats alone are stupid i think it all comes down to player skill. with the ar. no need to nerf it currently.

and off topic here.
has any else noticed the base damage of the scrambler pistol being buffed from 72 to 80 damage per shot?


and now back on topic.

the ar has more recoil than all of the other guns in the game much much more recoil.

It's public information on a web forum, far from stalking, it's called using facts. I like to do that instead of talking about trees, flowers and feelings when giving feedback on here. Here's some more facts about the MD's DPS:

Source


AR has ~183 of a DPS advantage over the MD, and that's based off direct hit damage. Splash damage, it's a difference of ~309. What were you saying about nerfing the MD's ROF again?