This is a joint statement from the entire CPM.

In the end, we're all in this together. CCP has at its disposal hundreds, if not thousands of players who are able, willing, and ready to do whatever it takes to help improve Dust 514, asking no more from CCP than a chance to participate. The deep levels of interaction between player and developer have been one of the keys to the success of Eve Online that has earned CCP the devout following they have gathered over the past decade. This success is something CCP needs strive to emulate with Dust 514 to foster that same strong relationship with their customers, encouraging them to keep playing and spending money for years to come.

The tale of the CPM in song.

It's a nice hail marry to get the community (that's left) to say "yes, this is everything we asked for all along of CCP" but CCP has to want to change or it doesn't matter. You can pressure but you cannot force. I anticipate some token gestures and then back to status quo. Prove me wrong CCP I guess, it's your only chance to recover IMO.

The lack of structured communication, on the other hand, is an even easier issue to resolve....and yet we continue to receive strange and aggressive resistance to it despite many examples of success elsewhere within the company. When pressed for the reason we don't see consistent communication from the design teams throughout the development process, we hear responses along the lines that they are simply "too busy", or we're asked in return if we'd prefer to have fewer improvements to the game, accompanied by greater amounts of explanation. But we all know this is a false choice that we should never have to make, as greater amounts of communication can only lead to an improved product in the end.

And that is a couple of examples in a long list. I heard CPM plays on closed servers with CCP? If this is true, is this where you play test future builds?

The fact that the CPM has released a statement like this indicates to me that despite recent restructuring and personnel changes, an unhealthy culture abides. In Reyk or in Shanghai I do not know.

But CCP, you have to find the source of that culture and find a way to change it into something a whole lot more efficacious and a whole lot wiser than what we have now. It's a difficult situation and a big ask, but if DUST is to become the catalyst for bringing New Eden to life, it needs to be done. And swiftly, methinks.

There is a pretty apparent culture difference.

However, I don't think this is the real source of the problem, and the absolute worst thing CCP could do is turn this into a witchhunt. It's not just one person or group of people causing this, the communication gap is a roadblock that exists in the process itself, that needs to be removed at all costs. This is not about placing blame or trying to find fault in any person or team. That doesn't matter. The last thing we want CCP to take from something like this is that there is anyone in the company causing this, who would just become a scapegoat, get fired, and have CCP think they 'solved' the problem.

Now more than ever, CCP needs all of their employees to be at their best. They need to work together with each other and with the community, and any assumption that anyone needs to be blamed or is at fault for this will just take away from any cohesion they might otherwise form as a result of this effort.

TL:DR - This is not a people problem. This is a "Operating Procedure" problem.

No one can deny that CCP is repeating work on game systems they've previously designed, released, and found problems with GÇô problems that in most cases were quickly identified and repeatedly brought up by the community throughout the beta period. There's also no denying that the need to rework any part of a product usually means that time and manpower was wasted initially. We're now seeing CCP fix many of these gameplay issues, but if they do not fix the core community engagement problems that allowed those issues to take root in the first place, we'll find ourselves back in the same unhealthy place time and time again.

This isn't to say there aren't a few shining examples of teams working to improve this situation. A few have stepped forward and taken full advantage of the feedback process, and have shown marked improvements in their area of the game. As a result, they become instantly beloved by the community. A few have worked with the CPM and taken feedback from our meetings to heart, coming back to us with massively improved results. However, we simply cannot afford to leave this up to individual efforts. Communication needs to be both standardized and endorsed by management as a "standard operating practice", and applied consistently across the entire development structure..

A proper, standardized communication platform should consist of the following minimum critical elements: Patch notes no later than a week in advance of a release, dev blogs for the major feature changes that require the most explanation, and stickied forum posts with follow-up participation from devs for upcoming feature changes that have yet to reach code freeze. The first two elements of this communication platform have begun to fall in place, but the third is sorely lacking, and it continues to create an unnecessary backlog for designers and unnecessary toxicity for the community teams to manage. Players consistently find stickied forum posts insulting if they're posted up after the time has passed when anything can be changed before a release, as if their opinions are being asked for only as a token gesture.

Balancing passes deserve special consideration here, because we've consistently heard that balance work is not tied to a code freeze, theoretically being something they could iterate much more rapidly on than other systems. Unfortunately, we've also seen resistance to using this powerful tool. Either way, there is enormous potential here being squandered. If CCP can indeed make more subtle balance adjustments on a week-to-week basis, until they hit a "sweet spot", then this should be done.

If for whatever reason this isn't viable (and they choose instead to include all balance work in a monthly 1.X release) than the same standard should be applied for other feature changes GÇô proposed balancing work (including all affected stats) need to be posted and discussed prior to code freeze. This is the communication standard that CCP has set for itself elsewhere in the company, and the standard that the community expects out of Shanghai as well, especially where balance is concerned. CCP can draw upon their own experience with Eve Online to examine the incredible progress that can be achieved with proper communication and community involvement when making balance adjustments.

In the end, we're all in this together. CCP has at its disposal hundreds, if not thousands of players who are able, willing, and ready to do whatever it takes to help improve Dust 514, asking no more from CCP than a chance to participate. The deep levels of interaction between player and developer have been one of the keys to the success of Eve Online that has earned CCP the devout following they have gathered over the past decade. This success is something CCP needs strive to emulate with Dust 514 to foster that same strong relationship with their customers, encouraging them to keep playing and spending money for years to come.

In the meantime, there is no sense in sugarcoating either the fact that the community's patience is at an end, and the attitude problems that have created the current situation remain unchanged. We request, again, that someone in management step up and take public responsibility for ensuring consistent communication moving forward GÇô for the health of the game, and the health of the community. Swift action is necessary in order to successfully convince the community that their participation is still necessary and relevant to Dust 514's future.

At the time of this writing, a very loose commitment has been given to better involve the CPM more closely in planning stages, but we want to impress upon CCP the severity of the larger communication problems and trust issues at hand. Without substance or detail, a simple pledge to communicate more often is frankly not good enough to dissipate our fears and concerns. As a council, we cannot afford to sit idle without hearing concrete plans to for improvement. We are told that there are meetings in the works to form such plans,and we look forward to hearing from CCP regarding this and working with them to create a solid foundation moving forward.

Thank you for your time and consideration,

The members of the Council of Planetary Management

The CPM are our "elected" officials, they represent the voice of the community. They need to have just as much say in the development of this game as anyone on the dev team.
The dev teams needs to eat their own dogfood / live their own code. They don't but the CPM does, thats why they need a say.

You weren't elected, and therefore aren't representative of the players. You're illegitimate, and should have no more rights than any other player - aside from laying the groundwork for a legitimate, representative body.

A decent sentiment, but, honestly, CPM0 should have only one responsibility - preparing the infrastructure for CPM1.

You weren't elected, and therefore aren't representative of the players. You're illegitimate, and should have no more rights than any other player - aside from laying the groundwork for a legitimate, representative body.

You guys shouldn't even have the CPM tag on the forums.

A fair enough point.

This is part of the reason we call ourselves CPM0, and not CPM1. But, ask yourself this ; Isn't the core part of the infrastructure, the process by which the CPM interacts with CCP? Establishing a voting process right now would be entirely meaningless, because CPM1 would just have to trudge through all same the roadblocks we're trying to clear for them. There has been progress, albeit slow in regards to setting up procedures that allow us to communicate, but many of these processes are not being used by CCP as well as they could be, which is yet another roadblock.

That being said... any player could say exactly what we have collectively drafted as a group and posted in the OP. Most of it is observations that any outside observer could make. It's simply a statement of how things are, since the information chain & feedback process is the integral function of the CPM institution, and people need to know where it stands.

A decent sentiment, but, honestly, CPM0 should have only one responsibility - preparing the infrastructure for CPM1.

You weren't elected, and therefore aren't representative of the players. You're illegitimate, and should have no more rights than any other player - aside from laying the groundwork for a legitimate, representative body.

You guys shouldn't even have the CPM tag on the forums.

There is a pretty apparent culture difference.

However, I don't think this is the real source of the problem, and the absolute worst thing CCP could do is turn this into a witchhunt. It's not just one person or group of people causing this, the communication gap is a roadblock that exists in the process itself, that needs to be removed at all costs. This is not about placing blame or trying to find fault in any person or team. That doesn't matter. The last thing we want CCP to take from something like this is that there is anyone in the company causing this, who would just become a scapegoat, get fired, and have CCP think they 'solved' the problem.

Now more than ever, CCP needs all of their employees to be at their best. They need to work together with each other and with the community, and any assumption that anyone needs to be blamed or is at fault for this will just take away from any cohesion they might otherwise form as a result of this effort.

TL:DR - This is not a people problem. This is a "Operating Procedure" problem.

Giev CCP Unifex on dust that dude rocks

I always assumed that 95% of CCP Shanghai did not speak english.

Language Barrier

Just to clear this up, none of the CCP staff we've ever engaged with have had any problems with English. The management of the Shanghai studio is almost completely made up of expats, and English is the required operational language spoken inside the company.

Good guess Regnummyummytummy - but unfortunately this goes deeper than anything hiring some translators could fix.

Whatever.

If this thread doesn't get a blue tag soon, I'll lose all faith in humanity.

Oh... the CPM got something better

Oh... the CPM got something better

So, some good(ish) news to report, following up to this.

Prior to even posting this, we poked CCP PR. We wanted them to know we were going to post something that was going to end up being pretty grim, and why we were posting it. Following this courtesy call, emails were sent out and we were contacted by several of the higher-ups, asking what was up to hear it for themselves. We were told this stuff was being added to the agenda of meetings with the higher-ups this week, and that they'd get back to us in a meeting shortly after.

This was pretty much expected, but we're not so much posting this to turn heads at CCP or to make it seem like we're trying to bully them into a response, so much as to acknowledge to the public "This is how things are right now". Our hope is that in the following week(s), we can hopefully have something much more positive to report. We want to keep the players in the loop as much as possible with what we're doing and how it's going.

Now, on to the positive stuff!

After posting this, I had a nice, lengthy talk with CCP Cmdr Wang. We talked about this statement, why we were making it, what our goals were with it, and the conversation progressed into something massively productive, beyond anything I could have hoped. He explained clearly and concisely CCP's internal design process and terminology and planning structures. We talked about the devblog process and how they determine what information is getting out and what precisely the 'hoops' are in order for a blog to land in the communities' lap. We talked about dev & blue posts, and any rules regarding those that apply to information getting out.

We also discussed the hotfix process & how the weekly reports from the community team play into those, and how those fixes are prioritized. We expanded our conversation into marketing, and while I can't get too much into what we talked about here, it was good info and super helpful.

In summary :

CCP Cmdr Wang gave us a MASSIVE amount of insight into many of CCP's processes that we have grievances with, and explained the proper terms to use to best ensure we 'click' with the devs and can communicate with them as efficiently as possible using language and methods that would best allow us to make the impact we're attempting to do. Now, in the meeting later this week with the higher-ups, we'll be completely armed to take best advantage of this opportunity and do the most good.

Couldn't CCP go an extra step (in the future) and sync new DUST content to SiSi? That way community members who have access to the Singularity server can help test new DUST content before it's released to Tranquility.

Couldn't CCP go an extra step (in the future) and sync new DUST content to SiSi? That way community members who have access to the Singularity server can help test new DUST content before it's released to Tranquility.

That's probably one of the better ways to conduct testing rather than throwing it to the wolves and hoping for the best.

Until you guys actually share what the exact details are the community is in the same boat while the CPM takes a step forward. Unless this info is being publicized - nothing is changing.

There is a pretty apparent culture difference.

However, I don't think this is the real source of the problem, and the absolute worst thing CCP could do is turn this into a witchhunt. It's not just one person or group of people causing this, the communication gap is a roadblock that exists in the process itself, that needs to be removed at all costs. This is not about placing blame or trying to find fault in any person or team. That doesn't matter. The last thing we want CCP to take from something like this is that there is anyone in the company causing this, who would just become a scapegoat, get fired, and have CCP think they 'solved' the problem.

Now more than ever, CCP needs all of their employees to be at their best. They need to work together with each other and with the community, and any assumption that anyone needs to be blamed or is at fault for this will just take away from any cohesion they might otherwise form as a result of this effort.

TL:DR - This is not a people problem. This is a "Operating Procedure" problem.

Doomsaying from Nova Knife? Whhaaaaaaat? No way....

Planetside 2 is also testing orbital strikes and other similar dust514 style tech.

Until we've used this new information to prepare a solid game plan around the resolution of these issues and brought it forward, there's not much we can share. Like said in the above post : We intend to keep players in the loop as much as possible, but we still need to operate within the NDA.

Even if we can't share the specifics of these processes (Most of which we'll be trying to change to better involve the community as a whole anyways, which we'll push to have the revised ones put out) I can assure you that what Cmdr Wang has given us ensures that we're much, much better equipped to drive positive change, because knowing is half the battle!

Seriously. One of the best, most productive conversations we've had from CCP to date.

lolCPM
lolCCP
lolDUST

we'll see if **** changes, bit late for this "hail mary" post tho nova
DUST isnt on a fast road to recovery even IF they change as well, would still take a year or more to even get to some of the pipedreams we were lured into fro the beginning.

+1 for effort but not holding my breath

This is pretty much an accurate summation of the current situation with the game. But what the CPM and CCP are having to deal with is that poor decisions made two years ago are still having a ripple effect within the game and have slowed the pace of development within it.

Uprising 1.2 should've been the beta build first released to us for evaluation, so by my reckoning this game is roughly 1 year behind where it should be. There has been a catalogue of errors in design judgement made by CCP and left in the game too long before fixing and compounding other problems in later builds.

Without exception, every one of these mistakes could've been prevented with faster communication and feedback to the players in the forums, an actionable plan drawn up with a publicly accessible and regularly updated roadmap for the game on the forums, much like the one for Planetside 2.

I find it encouraging however that in recent weeks there seems to be a increase in community interaction from some members of the Dev team (no need to name them, we all know who they are) and this seems to be spreading to other members of the team as they begin to see the benefits of player feedback earlier in the design phase.

The move that CCP have made that gives me real hope and a raises my opitislm is that CCP Flying Scotman is now in Shanghai and part of the Dust team. With one of CCP's most senior designers now in place we should see a real change in the pace of development of Dust. But the positve effects of him being over there is unlikely to bear real fruit until 1.5/.6, so I would ask the players to give him a little time to get settled and see what changes he has to make before giving him any static.

That said however CCP should still be free to come up with ideas and plans without feeling that they should check with the CPM and community for EVERY design choice. It gets dangourously close to design by committee which is never a good thing and I believe goes slightly beyond the remit of the CPM should that end up being the case. CCP should bring in comment from the CPM and by extension the community after preparatory work is done on a feature but BEFORE resources are committed to actioning them. That way a healthy balance is struck and CCP can save time and money if the CPM can tell them that it needs more more work or if there is a problem with it.

Now, there are a number of players still out there who think that statements like this are not what CPM0 should be doing and all they should only be concerned with coming up with a way to elect CPM1.

They're entitled to that opinion but I feel that they have missed the point of CPM0 entirely. There is little point in coming up with an election plan if by the time that elected body starts their term, they're being stonewalled by a undifined process of communication and protocol for dealling with CCP. CPM1 should be able to start work on day one of their term doing what they're going to be elected to do without having to discuss who and how they should be talking to to get something done.

As someone who has decided to stand to for CPM1 when the time comes (and yes, that time will come naysayers) I'm incredibly grateful for the work that CPM0 have done so far and glad CCP didn't pick me for the gig. I would've had to say no anyway. Getting DUST University up, running and stable was something that I felt would be a better contribution for me to make to the game in the long run. Particularly as the game has zero NPE at this point, something I will be pushing very hard for should I get elected.

As to the calls from some, for CCP to start again, well thats just impracticable at this point. 18 months ago it would've have been viable once details of the next gen consoles were known (one of those ripple effect decisions I spoke of earlier) but now it would be the death of Dust.

So broadly speaking I support this statement from the CPM and the recent posts since from members of the CPM since its posting regarding conversations that they've had with CCP is encouraging and seems to have lit a fire under Shanghai.

Oh man, you have no idea how much we wish this were true.

The mere existence of a test server would almost certainly have prevented so, so many issues.

Edit: Expanding on that - All of our 'foreknowledge' of upcoming builds comes from idle chat on skype or rough outlines of patchnotes, and the semi-regular meeting we have for them to say "So, these are the highlights of our plan for 1.X, questions?"

I fail to see why a properly elected CPM couldn't be working with CCP to improve things just as effectively as the unelected CPM0. All we need is elections. That's all CPM0 should be doing - providing the framework to deliver CPM1. By this measure, they're as delinquent as CCP in delivering milestones.

Still a good effort, I just think it's on the wrong goals.

I fail to see why a properly elected CPM couldn't be working with CCP to improve things just as effectively as the unelected CPM0. All we need is elections. That's all CPM0 should be doing - providing the framework to deliver CPM1. By this measure, they're as delinquent as CCP in delivering milestones.

Still a good effort, I just think it's on the wrong goals.

Oh man, you have no idea how much we wish this were true.

The mere existence of a test server would almost certainly have prevented so, so many issues.

Edit: Expanding on that - All of our 'foreknowledge' of upcoming builds comes from idle chat on skype or rough outlines of patchnotes, and the semi-regular meeting we have for them to say "So, these are the highlights of our plan for 1.X, questions?"

It's very rare for us to actually 'see' firsthand any of these changes. The only time this has been the case is when we got to see Uprising a little early at Fanfest (But then, so did everyone else who went to Fanfest.) We get some screenshots here and there for art stuff, but nothing nearly concrete enough or nearly as helpful as a test server would be. (There are /tons/ of roadblocks into getting a test server set up, and it's been a really tough sell trying to convince CCP of the merits of such a server, especially since we want such a server to be -public-)

There is a pretty apparent culture difference.

However, I don't think this is the real source of the problem, and the absolute worst thing CCP could do is turn this into a witchhunt. It's not just one person or group of people causing this, the communication gap is a roadblock that exists in the process itself, that needs to be removed at all costs. This is not about placing blame or trying to find fault in any person or team. That doesn't matter. The last thing we want CCP to take from something like this is that there is anyone in the company causing this, who would just become a scapegoat, get fired, and have CCP think they 'solved' the problem.

Now more than ever, CCP needs all of their employees to be at their best. They need to work together with each other and with the community, and any assumption that anyone needs to be blamed or is at fault for this will just take away from any cohesion they might otherwise form as a result of this effort.

TL:DR - This is not a people problem. This is a "Operating Procedure" problem.

It seems kind of easy to me to just mirror the TQ servery in its entirely so that the Dust environment is captured and brought over to the test server. As a solution to the multiple client issues and connecting to the correct server, perhaps its time to rework the launcher to have a CONNECT TO TEST SERVER//CONNECT TO TQ option for people wanting to check out the latest updates to the game that will be released. Considering the launcher already downloads updates automatically, we could play on TQ, get annoyed, switch to the TEST server within minutes/an hour and expect to see what is being considered to fix our frustration. CCP has already proven that they can have us connecting to the test server all through the Closed Beta phase, now it is time to apply that considerable knowledge and make-it-work!

It seems kind of easy to me to just mirror the TQ servery in its entirely so that the Dust environment is captured and brought over to the test server. As a solution to the multiple client issues and connecting to the correct server, perhaps its time to rework the launcher to have a CONNECT TO TEST SERVER//CONNECT TO TQ option for people wanting to check out the latest updates to the game that will be released. Considering the launcher already downloads updates automatically, we could play on TQ, get annoyed, switch to the TEST server within minutes/an hour and expect to see what is being considered to fix our frustration. CCP has already proven that they can have us connecting to the test server all through the Closed Beta phase, now it is time to apply that considerable knowledge and make-it-work!

The biggest thing here is that in order to do a test server, the only real way to do it is to stick a second client on the PSN store.

There's naturally a ton of hoops involved in setting this up in the first place, and with the QA/Approval processes, it'd be super tricky to get something on the test server in time to make it pay off from player feedback before a live release of that content. Especially now since they're trying to stick with a monthly schedule. (These are all outside observations, ofc)

I mean, the ability to have a dual-client using the launcher like you suggest is intrigueing. I have no idea if that's even on the table, but I'd imagine it'd pretty much be the same thing as maintaining a second client on PSN, in terms of hoops with sony, since they still need to do internal and sony QA processes for anything getting pushed to the client.

Get your priorities right Buster. The last thing we need is any interruption to the processes being created as they are now.

And no, it's not a given that an elected body with zero experience of these things would be able to work 'just as effectively' as CPM0 are at this stuff. It's not even what CPM1 should be doing and definitely not what many would be signing up for or being voted in to do if there were elections today.

I've said it before, but how many other games developers actually communicate at all with the community? The fact that we get any development communication is amazing.

Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of issue, and I think the communication is needed if Dust is to survive, especially in the area of balancing, matching and PC. But at the end of the day, they could equally well just fall silent and concentrate on working out the issues and actual coding.

I forget who posted about an "excuse" that it took too much time away from actual work to communicate with the community, well it's not an excuse, it does take a considerable amount of time to do, time that could be spent designing/coding. Community communication is not usually a skill required or found of/in development.

I fail to see why a properly elected CPM couldn't be working with CCP to improve things just as effectively as the unelected CPM0. All we need is elections. That's all CPM0 should be doing - providing the framework to deliver CPM1. By this measure, they're as delinquent as CCP in delivering milestones.

Still a good effort, I just think it's on the wrong goals.

I've said it before, but how many other games developers actually communicate at all with the community? The fact that we get any development communication is amazing.

Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of issue, and I think the communication is needed if Dust is to survive, especially in the area of balancing, matching and PC. But at the end of the day, they could equally well just fall silent and concentrate on working out the issues and actual coding.

I forget who posted about an "excuse" that it took too much time away from actual work to communicate with the community, well it's not an excuse, it does take a considerable amount of time to do, time that could be spent designing/coding. Community communication is not usually a skill required or found of/in development.

b straight with me, is dust dying?

Because the whole point of our statement was to highlight the areas where CCP needs to improve their working relationship with the CPM, to bring it to the level that everyone's come to expect from the CSM over the years. In other words, they're NOT using us anywhere near as effectively as they could. Replacing us with elected individuals won't magically make CCP integrate us into their development process anymore than they do now. It just means you'll have a new CPM who's make-up will largely be determined by a popularity contest, that still has all the same challenges ahead convincing CCP to work with them. And depending on the individuals elected, CCP may be more or less willing to respect their feedback (After all, the players could elect trolls or large alliance leaders that may or may not have the capability of remaining professional and effective in a time of crisis).

In other words, if there's no working, established, functional CPM body to begin with (with a structured way that CCP engages them regularly, and proof that this process is working to get player feedback considered by the devs in a timely fashion) elections may very well be a step backwards, not forwards.

See, I agree that all this needs to be done, but I don't agree that the CPM0's ideas of how Dust should look different have any merit because the entire point of the CPM is to represent players - which you don't.

Now I'm sorry to derail this as I have. The point from the OP is valid. Hopefully it helps. I still feel the CPM0 should be moving aside as quickly as possible, rather than trying to fix Dust.

I think the appropriate analogy is that a sick patient has been stabilized in the operating room for the time being, but the CPM wants to make sure that the doctor's orders from here out include plenty of exercise and proper nutrition so that the patient doesn't end up right back in the hospital a few months down the road.

No, it's not a step backwards. It's a step towards representation.
Currently, you guys don't represent players by popularity contest or otherwise.

I agree with your main point - that improvements need to be made to communication. An elected body would actually represent something other than whomever CCP picked.

See, I agree that all this needs to be done, but I don't agree that the CPM0's ideas of how Dust should look different have any merit because the entire point of the CPM is to represent players - which you don't.

Now I'm sorry to derail this as I have. The point from the OP is valid. Hopefully it helps. I still feel the CPM0 should be moving aside as quickly as possible, rather than trying to fix Dust.

No, it's not a step backwards. It's a step towards representation.
Currently, you guys don't represent players by popularity contest or otherwise.

I agree with your main point - that improvements need to be made to communication. An elected body would actually represent something other than whomever CCP picked.

See, I agree that all this needs to be done, but I don't agree that the CPM0's ideas of how Dust should look different have any merit because the entire point of the CPM is to represent players - which you don't.

Now I'm sorry to derail this as I have. The point from the OP is valid. Hopefully it helps. I still feel the CPM0 should be moving aside as quickly as possible, rather than trying to fix Dust.

If you elected a body of individuals who are entirely clueless as to what their CPM duties are how things are done and how to talk to CCP to work with them it would be a step backwards because they can easily be just as hostile as the IRC is and any attempts to talk to the CPM by CCP or vice versa could be an entirely unproductive process, nearly undo the entire process that CPM 0 has been trying to set up and possibly severely damage damage the CPM 2 and beyond. What if all of CPM1 decided to screw the NDA and release things without approval? getting fired and all.

There are many way to represent players as a whole though the best deal though is good amounts of varying opinions and coverage of ideas. Just because one individual may think the flaylock may be in good place, doesn't mean that it is yet that doesn't invalidate his representation of players who also feel the same way whatever their reasons are.

Politics aside the players elected should only be entering the election process with the best intentions in mind, I wonder how many of those people who were also vetted when the War Council was first brought up that are no longer with us today? Or those that called for replacement of members before and after the term started? What sort of credibility those people have now? Trust me whatever reasons they have left for, had they been in the CPM then they would have left much sooner than that.

The CPM is not fun and games, it consumes a crud ton of time, can keep you up late at night just typing away and making reports. Waking up at odd hours just to make a meeting or getting personal contact with members of CCP and takes serious amounts of dedication more so than the hardcore players who are tipping over 20 million just now, and this is just trying to interact with CCP alone, interacting with the community is nearly just as humongous in time consumption and most of the work done within the CPM will be thankless, silent victories, and secreted wins that individual or the entire CPM will never be credited for. Some victories to which may not bear fruit well until after that council is dismissed for end of term.

CPM 0's job is to ensure that CPM 1 will not be the LAST CPM elected and rushing to getting those guys elected now would almost guarantee that.

If you elected a body of individuals who are entirely clueless as to what their CPM duties are how things are done and how to talk to CCP to work with them it would be a step backwards because they can easily be just as hostile as the IRC is and any attempts to talk to the CPM by CCP or vice versa could be an entirely unproductive process, nearly undo the entire process that CPM 0 has been trying to set up and possibly severely damage damage the CPM 2 and beyond. What if all of CPM1 decided to screw the NDA and release things without approval? getting fired and all.

There are many way to represent players as a whole though the best deal though is good amounts of varying opinions and coverage of ideas. Just because one individual may think the flaylock may be in good place, doesn't mean that it is yet that doesn't invalidate his representation of players who also feel the same way whatever their reasons are.

Politics aside the players elected should only be entering the election process with the best intentions in mind, I wonder how many of those people who were also vetted when the War Council was first brought up that are no longer with us today? Or those that called for replacement of members before and after the term started? What sort of credibility those people have now? Trust me whatever reasons they have left for, had they been in the CPM then they would have left much sooner than that.

The CPM is not fun and games, it consumes a crud ton of time, can keep you up late at night just typing away and making reports. Waking up at odd hours just to make a meeting or getting personal contact with members of CCP and takes serious amounts of dedication more so than the hardcore players who are tipping over 20 million just now, and this is just trying to interact with CCP alone, interacting with the community is nearly just as humongous in time consumption and most of the work done within the CPM will be thankless, silent victories, and secreted wins that individual or the entire CPM will never be credited for. Some victories to which may not bear fruit well until after that council is dismissed for end of term.

CPM 0's job is to ensure that CPM 1 will not be the LAST CPM elected and rushing to getting those guys elected now would almost guarantee that.

Once again Buster, if you're so committed to the idea that we're not representing the player base via our recommendations to CCP, put some effort into it, start a thread and state your case using linked, verifiable examples. Otherwise you're going to continue to look fairly silly ranting about repression, dictatorships and government - the last of which (government) is hugely indicative of your lack of understanding about our mission in the first place. The CPM does not exist to govern anything, really. We're a volunteer community advocate group. Ultimately, its the community that gets to decide whether we advocate for their needs, not just you. If the feedback to your comments in this thread is any indication than its pretty clear that you are the one that is out of touch with the majority here, not the CPM.

Thanks to everyone else in the meantime for keeping the discussion focused and constructive.

Listen, I had decided not to comment on this anymore, but I just can't abide this BS.

You guys were clueless before you were appointed by CCP, just like an elected body would have been.

There's no magic that you have. You shouldn't be there in the first place. All of the CPMs should be elected.

The fact of the matter is, when I read your defending of an appointed oligarchy, all I hear is the repressive voice of all dictatorships.

You shouldn't have a voice because you don't represent anyone. Done. Yes, it is as simple as that.

I can't help that you're in place now, but the CPM, even 0 should have been elected. CCP, by listening, to an unelected group of players is making a poor decision.

I understand your need to justify your position. All appointed members of government have this need - it stems from your inherent illegitimacy.

I'm glad to see that you are pushing for better communication, but honestly, a ton of crap the CPM says on the forums here is really misguided and doesn't represent the players. Your flaylock example is perfect, I saw CPM members stating that they think the weapon should be completely ruined. How's that measured? Or reserved? Or informed. You guys aren't any more capable than an elected body would be, but an elected body would have an additional point of legitimacy.

Your job, IMHO, ought to be making way for a group with more legitimacy, anything more than that is a risk to the game at this early stage due to the CPM's biased views and sense of self importance. I have no doubt it's a tough job, and never said otherwise, it just shouldn't be your job unless you were elected to the post.

I'm sorry I've said all this, but it's how I feel. The push for CCP to better communication is good, but it doesn't take away the need for representation.

I think the appropriate analogy is that a sick patient has been stabilized in the operating room for the time being, but the CPM wants to make sure that the doctor's orders from here out include plenty of exercise and proper nutrition so that the patient doesn't end up right back in the hospital a few months down the road.

Don't worry too much about a public response just yet.

Later this week when we've had our meeting with the leadership team to talk about this stuff, we (but ideally they) should likely have some news to report about progress moving forward.

Edit:

I don't expect we'll be able to hash out everything and 'fix all the problems' in the chain with one meeting. But armed with the knowledge of the process Cmdr Wang gave us following this statement... I'm pretty confident that we can make a serious dent and get CCP to commit to some broader goals, and we can work out the specifics over the next little while through follow-up meetings.

Hmm, ad hominem now, well I should have known.

Of course you don't govern anything, but you are in a privileged position. A position you shouldn't have.

Let's find out together shall we:
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=101733&find=unread

Hmm, ad hominem now, well I should have known.

Of course you don't govern anything, but you are in a privileged position. A position you shouldn't have.

Let's find out together shall we:
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=101733&find=unread

Whether we represent the players' ideas or not has little to do without our method of selection, and everything to do with our willingness to listen to the community and forward their feedback.

Elected officials and alliance leaders can still give the finger to the community, and give CCP their own terrible ideas. And even appointed officials can listen and share community feedback to CCP without letting personal opinion get in the way.

In other words, its not the elections that matter - its the conduct of the council members once they are on the council you should be paying attention to at all times. If you feel we are letting our personal opinions or perspectives override community sentiment you should create a thread here in the Council's Chambers outlining why you believe we are failing as representatives, and provide concrete examples.

Otherwise, its silly to say that just because we weren't elected we are somehow incapable of bringing community feedback to CCP. That assumption is also dangerous - if you believe that elections somehow guarantee a council member's objectivity, you're setting yourself up to be blind to an elected CPM official doing a terrible job down the road as well, because you gave the election system too much trust to begin with.

..the public (or at the very least; The CPM) needs ..

The semi-colon does not require a capitalized letter after it.

While we are being pedantic you should realize something; in that phrase, the semi-colon is too strong. There is no need for a semi-colon (or any punctuation).


Munch

It's not doomsaying, it's calling out facts.

Sorry, reality isn't made up of idealisms.

Oh man, you have no idea how much we wish this were true.

The mere existence of a test server would almost certainly have prevented so, so many issues.

Edit: Expanding on that - All of our 'foreknowledge' of upcoming builds comes from idle chat on skype or rough outlines of patchnotes, and the semi-regular meeting we have for them to say "So, these are the highlights of our plan for 1.X, questions?"

It's very rare for us to actually 'see' firsthand any of these changes. The only time this has been the case is when we got to see Uprising a little early at Fanfest (But then, so did everyone else who went to Fanfest.) We get some screenshots here and there for art stuff, but nothing nearly concrete enough or nearly as helpful as a test server would be. (There are /tons/ of roadblocks into getting a test server set up, and it's been a really tough sell trying to convince CCP of the merits of such a server, especially since we want such a server to be -public-)

I agree with you 100% that the current CPM do not really represent the community in that they were hand picked by CCP. I hope the CPM understands the communities frustration with this. CCP's stance is that the CPM represents the community and the communities interests, however the community views the CPM as CCP's hand picked politicians used more so to squash problems and be a figure head, not actually a voice for what we want. Think about it: a delegation that is asked to represent a large group is hand picked by the opposition. You can't help but see the conflict of interest and our frustration.

On the subjected quoted... why the **** are we not given some access to SISI for testing? Eve players are and I know full well CCP get a great deal of good feedback and use SISI to ensure Eve patches are now nearly flawless. I find it shocking that the CPM have no access to this server, if not a select few of the grunts on Dust.

Okay.

Update #4 :

We have had our meeting. CCP and the CPM hashed our our general feels and talked about the process moving forward. A rough charter for the CPM is being drawn up, which will be a document that details the goals & process by which we interact with CCP in their release planning.

We have no serious goals or commitments from CCP to post at this time, as we need to follow up after the charter is drawn up.... but this meeting was a pretty huge deal. It took /years/ for the CSM to be involved in release planning. For CCP to be willing to involve the CPM in this after merely months, is a /huge/ step. The key thing here is... finding a gentle groove to make this work. This is something we'll be working with CCP on in the future.

So.. The foundation for good news is set. We'll see what the future brings, if things keep looking up.

Okay....

I hope more can be said about it than that. This meeting was the big good news that came out of CPMs statement right?

We have no serious goals or commitments from CCP to post at this time, as we need to follow up after the charter is drawn up....

Do you have clear commitments from CCP about what types of interaction between them and the CPM should be in the charter? Not asking for details but if you came away with literally no commitments from CCP then I couldn't care less about this news, the charter, or the CPM's recent efforts.

What (I hope) he is saying is that CCP will actually let the CPM into the loop as far as what goes into each patch, and (again, I hope) actually have some influence on the patch content. Basically, letting them do the job they were supposed to do from the get go.

Do you have clear commitments from CCP about what types of interaction between them and the CPM should be in the charter? Not asking for details but if you came away with literally no commitments from CCP then I couldn't care less about this news, the charter, or the CPM's recent efforts.

I felt much better coming out of the meeting for sure and my optimism for useful future CPMs as been better realized. Just waiting for the said concrete mix now, being able to inspect the contents and mix before pouring it.

And as for Dust 514 itself is just like concrete; bigger the slab the longer it takes to dry. CCP nearly had to recycle all the previous concrete to make a new foundation before we can build upon in. Hopefully this time we are going to lay it down proper.

...

So, they've been laying the process out for us and like I said above... We're going to try to settle on the best stages in the design process to include the CPM, and the best stages to involve the community. The big thing here is that everyone agreed that feedback needs to be accounted for earlier, before something is unable to be changed if a glaring problem is spotted. We recognize though... that sometimes there simply isn't time to rework something in cases like that.

...

Leading up to the meeting the situation and attitudes seemed fairly grim. CCP's openness and honesty during the meeting was a breath of fresh air to say the least. I'm personally feeling much better about the situation, but again it's going to come down to the actions that are taken. Words will only take us so far.

I did get the sense that CCP genuinely cares about both the community and the opportunity that the CPM represents to facilitate community interaction. There is a reason that CPM0 is in many ways a "beta" council in that many of these processes are being and will continue to be iterated.

I think that the real signs of actionable progress will be in the charter, which I'm happy to see will help to put us on the path to player elections and begin to lay the foundations for CPM1. Seeing a path through the fog where we actually have a foundation of communication with CCP laid that will allow for meaningful player representation has given me a much brighter outlook on the situation.

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1201860#post1201860

Still feel like progress is being made?

I read that post, and immediately felt someone kick me square in the balls.

Just hilarious. 1.4 is going to be my make or break update.

Still feel like progress is being made?

I blame Laurino.

So has this charter been finished yet?

Probably yes, if you go by the third definition.