Get your priorities right Buster. The last thing we need is any interruption to the processes being created as they are now.

And no, it's not a given that an elected body with zero experience of these things would be able to work 'just as effectively' as CPM0 are at this stuff. It's not even what CPM1 should be doing and definitely not what many would be signing up for or being voted in to do if there were elections today.

I've said it before, but how many other games developers actually communicate at all with the community? The fact that we get any development communication is amazing.

Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of issue, and I think the communication is needed if Dust is to survive, especially in the area of balancing, matching and PC. But at the end of the day, they could equally well just fall silent and concentrate on working out the issues and actual coding.

I forget who posted about an "excuse" that it took too much time away from actual work to communicate with the community, well it's not an excuse, it does take a considerable amount of time to do, time that could be spent designing/coding. Community communication is not usually a skill required or found of/in development.

I fail to see why a properly elected CPM couldn't be working with CCP to improve things just as effectively as the unelected CPM0. All we need is elections. That's all CPM0 should be doing - providing the framework to deliver CPM1. By this measure, they're as delinquent as CCP in delivering milestones.

Still a good effort, I just think it's on the wrong goals.

I've said it before, but how many other games developers actually communicate at all with the community? The fact that we get any development communication is amazing.

Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of issue, and I think the communication is needed if Dust is to survive, especially in the area of balancing, matching and PC. But at the end of the day, they could equally well just fall silent and concentrate on working out the issues and actual coding.

I forget who posted about an "excuse" that it took too much time away from actual work to communicate with the community, well it's not an excuse, it does take a considerable amount of time to do, time that could be spent designing/coding. Community communication is not usually a skill required or found of/in development.

b straight with me, is dust dying?

Because the whole point of our statement was to highlight the areas where CCP needs to improve their working relationship with the CPM, to bring it to the level that everyone's come to expect from the CSM over the years. In other words, they're NOT using us anywhere near as effectively as they could. Replacing us with elected individuals won't magically make CCP integrate us into their development process anymore than they do now. It just means you'll have a new CPM who's make-up will largely be determined by a popularity contest, that still has all the same challenges ahead convincing CCP to work with them. And depending on the individuals elected, CCP may be more or less willing to respect their feedback (After all, the players could elect trolls or large alliance leaders that may or may not have the capability of remaining professional and effective in a time of crisis).

In other words, if there's no working, established, functional CPM body to begin with (with a structured way that CCP engages them regularly, and proof that this process is working to get player feedback considered by the devs in a timely fashion) elections may very well be a step backwards, not forwards.

See, I agree that all this needs to be done, but I don't agree that the CPM0's ideas of how Dust should look different have any merit because the entire point of the CPM is to represent players - which you don't.

Now I'm sorry to derail this as I have. The point from the OP is valid. Hopefully it helps. I still feel the CPM0 should be moving aside as quickly as possible, rather than trying to fix Dust.

I think the appropriate analogy is that a sick patient has been stabilized in the operating room for the time being, but the CPM wants to make sure that the doctor's orders from here out include plenty of exercise and proper nutrition so that the patient doesn't end up right back in the hospital a few months down the road.

No, it's not a step backwards. It's a step towards representation.
Currently, you guys don't represent players by popularity contest or otherwise.

I agree with your main point - that improvements need to be made to communication. An elected body would actually represent something other than whomever CCP picked.

See, I agree that all this needs to be done, but I don't agree that the CPM0's ideas of how Dust should look different have any merit because the entire point of the CPM is to represent players - which you don't.

Now I'm sorry to derail this as I have. The point from the OP is valid. Hopefully it helps. I still feel the CPM0 should be moving aside as quickly as possible, rather than trying to fix Dust.

No, it's not a step backwards. It's a step towards representation.
Currently, you guys don't represent players by popularity contest or otherwise.

I agree with your main point - that improvements need to be made to communication. An elected body would actually represent something other than whomever CCP picked.

See, I agree that all this needs to be done, but I don't agree that the CPM0's ideas of how Dust should look different have any merit because the entire point of the CPM is to represent players - which you don't.

Now I'm sorry to derail this as I have. The point from the OP is valid. Hopefully it helps. I still feel the CPM0 should be moving aside as quickly as possible, rather than trying to fix Dust.

If you elected a body of individuals who are entirely clueless as to what their CPM duties are how things are done and how to talk to CCP to work with them it would be a step backwards because they can easily be just as hostile as the IRC is and any attempts to talk to the CPM by CCP or vice versa could be an entirely unproductive process, nearly undo the entire process that CPM 0 has been trying to set up and possibly severely damage damage the CPM 2 and beyond. What if all of CPM1 decided to screw the NDA and release things without approval? getting fired and all.

There are many way to represent players as a whole though the best deal though is good amounts of varying opinions and coverage of ideas. Just because one individual may think the flaylock may be in good place, doesn't mean that it is yet that doesn't invalidate his representation of players who also feel the same way whatever their reasons are.

Politics aside the players elected should only be entering the election process with the best intentions in mind, I wonder how many of those people who were also vetted when the War Council was first brought up that are no longer with us today? Or those that called for replacement of members before and after the term started? What sort of credibility those people have now? Trust me whatever reasons they have left for, had they been in the CPM then they would have left much sooner than that.

The CPM is not fun and games, it consumes a crud ton of time, can keep you up late at night just typing away and making reports. Waking up at odd hours just to make a meeting or getting personal contact with members of CCP and takes serious amounts of dedication more so than the hardcore players who are tipping over 20 million just now, and this is just trying to interact with CCP alone, interacting with the community is nearly just as humongous in time consumption and most of the work done within the CPM will be thankless, silent victories, and secreted wins that individual or the entire CPM will never be credited for. Some victories to which may not bear fruit well until after that council is dismissed for end of term.

CPM 0's job is to ensure that CPM 1 will not be the LAST CPM elected and rushing to getting those guys elected now would almost guarantee that.

If you elected a body of individuals who are entirely clueless as to what their CPM duties are how things are done and how to talk to CCP to work with them it would be a step backwards because they can easily be just as hostile as the IRC is and any attempts to talk to the CPM by CCP or vice versa could be an entirely unproductive process, nearly undo the entire process that CPM 0 has been trying to set up and possibly severely damage damage the CPM 2 and beyond. What if all of CPM1 decided to screw the NDA and release things without approval? getting fired and all.

There are many way to represent players as a whole though the best deal though is good amounts of varying opinions and coverage of ideas. Just because one individual may think the flaylock may be in good place, doesn't mean that it is yet that doesn't invalidate his representation of players who also feel the same way whatever their reasons are.

Politics aside the players elected should only be entering the election process with the best intentions in mind, I wonder how many of those people who were also vetted when the War Council was first brought up that are no longer with us today? Or those that called for replacement of members before and after the term started? What sort of credibility those people have now? Trust me whatever reasons they have left for, had they been in the CPM then they would have left much sooner than that.

The CPM is not fun and games, it consumes a crud ton of time, can keep you up late at night just typing away and making reports. Waking up at odd hours just to make a meeting or getting personal contact with members of CCP and takes serious amounts of dedication more so than the hardcore players who are tipping over 20 million just now, and this is just trying to interact with CCP alone, interacting with the community is nearly just as humongous in time consumption and most of the work done within the CPM will be thankless, silent victories, and secreted wins that individual or the entire CPM will never be credited for. Some victories to which may not bear fruit well until after that council is dismissed for end of term.

CPM 0's job is to ensure that CPM 1 will not be the LAST CPM elected and rushing to getting those guys elected now would almost guarantee that.

Once again Buster, if you're so committed to the idea that we're not representing the player base via our recommendations to CCP, put some effort into it, start a thread and state your case using linked, verifiable examples. Otherwise you're going to continue to look fairly silly ranting about repression, dictatorships and government - the last of which (government) is hugely indicative of your lack of understanding about our mission in the first place. The CPM does not exist to govern anything, really. We're a volunteer community advocate group. Ultimately, its the community that gets to decide whether we advocate for their needs, not just you. If the feedback to your comments in this thread is any indication than its pretty clear that you are the one that is out of touch with the majority here, not the CPM.

Thanks to everyone else in the meantime for keeping the discussion focused and constructive.

Listen, I had decided not to comment on this anymore, but I just can't abide this BS.

You guys were clueless before you were appointed by CCP, just like an elected body would have been.

There's no magic that you have. You shouldn't be there in the first place. All of the CPMs should be elected.

The fact of the matter is, when I read your defending of an appointed oligarchy, all I hear is the repressive voice of all dictatorships.

You shouldn't have a voice because you don't represent anyone. Done. Yes, it is as simple as that.

I can't help that you're in place now, but the CPM, even 0 should have been elected. CCP, by listening, to an unelected group of players is making a poor decision.

I understand your need to justify your position. All appointed members of government have this need - it stems from your inherent illegitimacy.

I'm glad to see that you are pushing for better communication, but honestly, a ton of crap the CPM says on the forums here is really misguided and doesn't represent the players. Your flaylock example is perfect, I saw CPM members stating that they think the weapon should be completely ruined. How's that measured? Or reserved? Or informed. You guys aren't any more capable than an elected body would be, but an elected body would have an additional point of legitimacy.

Your job, IMHO, ought to be making way for a group with more legitimacy, anything more than that is a risk to the game at this early stage due to the CPM's biased views and sense of self importance. I have no doubt it's a tough job, and never said otherwise, it just shouldn't be your job unless you were elected to the post.

I'm sorry I've said all this, but it's how I feel. The push for CCP to better communication is good, but it doesn't take away the need for representation.

I think the appropriate analogy is that a sick patient has been stabilized in the operating room for the time being, but the CPM wants to make sure that the doctor's orders from here out include plenty of exercise and proper nutrition so that the patient doesn't end up right back in the hospital a few months down the road.

Don't worry too much about a public response just yet.

Later this week when we've had our meeting with the leadership team to talk about this stuff, we (but ideally they) should likely have some news to report about progress moving forward.

Edit:

I don't expect we'll be able to hash out everything and 'fix all the problems' in the chain with one meeting. But armed with the knowledge of the process Cmdr Wang gave us following this statement... I'm pretty confident that we can make a serious dent and get CCP to commit to some broader goals, and we can work out the specifics over the next little while through follow-up meetings.

Hmm, ad hominem now, well I should have known.

Of course you don't govern anything, but you are in a privileged position. A position you shouldn't have.

Let's find out together shall we:
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=101733&find=unread

Hmm, ad hominem now, well I should have known.

Of course you don't govern anything, but you are in a privileged position. A position you shouldn't have.

Let's find out together shall we:
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=101733&find=unread

Whether we represent the players' ideas or not has little to do without our method of selection, and everything to do with our willingness to listen to the community and forward their feedback.

Elected officials and alliance leaders can still give the finger to the community, and give CCP their own terrible ideas. And even appointed officials can listen and share community feedback to CCP without letting personal opinion get in the way.

In other words, its not the elections that matter - its the conduct of the council members once they are on the council you should be paying attention to at all times. If you feel we are letting our personal opinions or perspectives override community sentiment you should create a thread here in the Council's Chambers outlining why you believe we are failing as representatives, and provide concrete examples.

Otherwise, its silly to say that just because we weren't elected we are somehow incapable of bringing community feedback to CCP. That assumption is also dangerous - if you believe that elections somehow guarantee a council member's objectivity, you're setting yourself up to be blind to an elected CPM official doing a terrible job down the road as well, because you gave the election system too much trust to begin with.

..the public (or at the very least; The CPM) needs ..

The semi-colon does not require a capitalized letter after it.